[HN Gopher] Epicurus for Our Time
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Epicurus for Our Time
Author : diodorus
Score : 71 points
Date : 2023-04-05 18:51 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (lareviewofbooks.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (lareviewofbooks.org)
| pelasaco wrote:
| Less Epicurus and more Aristotle. We need eudaimonia, which is
| achieved through the cultivation of virtues and the development
| of a good character.
| foundart wrote:
| I think a better article on Epicurus is
| https://psyche.co/guides/how-to-seek-out-and-savour-lifes-jo...
|
| > Forget shallow hedonism. Follow this philosophy for wondrous,
| unexpected joys and resilience against inevitable misfortune
|
| And
|
| > Epicurus thinks that we not only need friends, but that friends
| contribute the most to life's goodness. Friend groups give us
| confidence of support in times of material and emotional
| distress, and they help us learn about ourselves and the world.
| Sometimes only friends can effectively communicate difficult
| truths. For Epicurus, the crowning grace of good friends is their
| role in building the library of joyful memories we rely on in
| times of difficulty, boredom or misfortune.
| eternalban wrote:
| _" I would rather discover a new aetiology than acquire the
| Persian crown."_ - Epicurus
|
| _"In physics, where he is the most pretentious, Epicurus is a
| perfect stranger. Most of it belongs to Democritus; where he
| deviates from him, where he endeavours to improve, he spoils and
| worsens it."_ - Cicero
|
| _"Of this great man [Democritus] we scarcely know anything but
| what Epicurus borrowed from him, and Epicurus was not capable of
| always taking the best."_ - Leibniz
|
| Epicurus' philosophy very much reminds me of Goethe's regarding
| _perception_ of colors (contrasted with the objective position of
| Newton regarding colors). As I am aging I am becoming convinced
| that the experience is the meaning, and youthful insistence on
| "meaning of life" is precisely _pre-mature_. (And as a Persian, I
| think he also made the right call regarding the crown of Persia
| ..)
|
| [The quotes are taken from Karl Marx's school thesis btw.]
| criddell wrote:
| What was meant by Epicurus is a _perfect stranger_ in physics?
| Does it mean he didn 't interact with other physicists? Was
| physics something different 2000 years ago?
| ColanR wrote:
| I think it just means he was really bad at it.
| kromem wrote:
| Except that it's the Epicureans that got the closest to modern
| scientific knowledge in hindsight.
|
| Lucretius's De Rerum Natura is the only extant work from
| antiquity to explicitly describe the claim that what we see
| around us started from senseless primordial beings that through
| intermediate mutants came to be what we see around us via the
| process of survival of the fittest in relation to reproduction.
|
| It also claimed that trait inheritance occurred as the result
| of a "doubled seed" from each parent.
|
| It theorized that quantized matter must be governed by a degree
| of uncertainty in outcomes for free will to exist ("the
| swerve").
|
| That light was also quantized and what we see is the result of
| these quantized parts moving very quickly.
|
| That thunder and lighting might occur at the same time but one
| moves faster to reach us.
|
| That the entire world was the result of primordial quanta
| randomly interacting.
|
| That this was not the only world like it, but was one of an
| uncountable number of worlds all from this random process.
|
| So that's great that a bunch of idiots in antiquity who had no
| idea what was actually correct thought that Democritus was
| superior (who they also claimed was just ripping off Mochus of
| Sidon) and Epicurus the lesser. But their opinions are hardly
| authoritative given they would have also claimed most of the
| above wasn't true.
|
| The Epicurean understanding of nature was _outstanding_ in
| retrospect with the exception of his local cosmology.
| fpoling wrote:
| But then who among Ancient Greek philosophers was good at
| physics? They only tried to explain, that is, tell stories
| about how things worked. They did not try to make predictions
| and verify that they matched the reality.
| eimrine wrote:
| There is no physics in Liberal Arts but there were Geometry,
| Music, Astronomy - some parts of which are parts of what
| today is called Physics. All I know about pure Physics in
| Ancient times is Zeno's paradoxes which is how they used to
| analyze movement and maybe three Archimedean simple machines
| among the 6 classical ones which is how they applied their
| knowledge about movement into practice.
| fogzen wrote:
| We cannot heal the wasteland within while creating a wasteland
| without. We cannot fix the problem until we recognize the
| problem: industrial society and the hubris of technological
| progress. The more we attempt to improve on nature, the more we
| destroy nature and ourselves. We have alienated ourselves and our
| soul in the aimless pursuit of progress. We have gained little
| yet lost nearly everything. But why must we progress? Nature is
| fine as it is. We are fine as we are. Our internal and external
| wasteland is caused by the blind pursuit of decadent desire.
|
| Epicurus had a garden. When was the last time you spent the day
| in a garden, napped under the shade of a tree, smelled the plants
| and the flowers, and saw the moon and the stars in all their
| glory?
| nathan_compton wrote:
| "Nature is fine as it is. We are fine as we are." I used to
| feel this way sometimes, but now I see this as a facile
| capitulation to the complexity of life. I have a kid. 100 years
| ago there would be a damn good chance they wouldn't make it to
| adulthood and now its a virtual certainty. I'm delighted about
| that.
|
| It is funny that we are all using the garden as a metaphor
| here. A garden isn't natural. It is a technological artifact. A
| subjugation of nature as surely as a parking lot (though
| assuredly more subtle). We have the power to act in the world.
| Nature has produced in us a profound power to act. We can't
| pretend it doesn't exist.
| pelasaco wrote:
| > I have a kid. 100 years ago there would be a damn good
| chance they wouldn't make it to adulthood and now its a
| virtual certainty. I'm delighted about that.
|
| Unless some nihilism crazy person, full of cocain, decides
| that the school and the kids there are responsible for his or
| her problems. The self-critics exercised in the west is
| destroying it's civilization. Last week was in US, yesterday
| in Brazil. Berlin, almost every day.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| The odds of this remain effectively nil. The numbers are
| readily available.
|
| Cars, ODs, and suicide are _much_ bigger concerns for those
| with kids. Or should be. Any one of those dwarfs the risk
| of death or injury in a school shooting, which is so far
| down the list that it 's in the company of a ton of things
| that nobody ever gives a thought.
|
| Separately, school shootings are a national disgrace and
| shouldn't happen, certainly not at anything like the rate
| they do, but they're not _actually_ a risk worth worrying
| about on an individual level.
| pelasaco wrote:
| > Cars, ODs, and suicide are much bigger concerns for
| those with kids.
|
| Well swimming pool, but thats are either accidents or
| personal tragedies. It always happened, it will always
| happens.
|
| > Separately, school shootings are a national disgrace
| and shouldn't happen
|
| school shooting or school Rampage is a world problem.
| Another countries with less guns, but still a world
| problem.
|
| > but they're not actually a risk worth worrying about on
| an individual level.
|
| Statistics are good for argumentation (50 million kids in
| the schools, just 2000 injured in shootings), but if you
| have kids in the elementary school, or school in general,
| you will worry on an individual level. Actually the pools
| supports that https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gun-violence-
| schools-parents-ch...
| yamtaddle wrote:
| So your point is that... people worrying about something
| that's not actually a notable risk, is the problem? You
| responded to "at least my kids have access to modern
| medical care" with "but school shootings" and I pointed
| out that they're not actually a significant danger for
| kids, and you've come back with "but people are worrying
| regardless", so I'm rather lost.
| moe091 wrote:
| People aren't going to like this, if most people did then the
| modern age wouldn't be what it is. I think it's important for
| people to see things from outside the bias of their current
| age, the "spirit of the times", before they can do anything
| other than perpetuate the existing modern biases and
| blindspots. Which isn't an easy thing to do, even if everyone
| learned the historical context of the world and learned about
| the changes in societies and personalities over time, it's very
| difficult not to view all that context through the filter of
| modern perspectives and miss the essence of it completely
| csdvrx wrote:
| > We have alienated ourselves and our soul in the aimless
| pursuit of progress.
|
| Evidence required
| eimrine wrote:
| Pursuit of anything is a pain for the pursuiter, I mean
| otherwise he might be just calm.
| moe091 wrote:
| _Gestures widely at the world_
| FredPret wrote:
| Here's the thing.
|
| Homo Sapiens' ancestors used technology, including tools. We
| evolved into, and in the context of, a technological
| environment.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| For me, HN is a largely-textmode garden, without whose walls
| are a cacophony of autoplay shorts, and within whose walls I
| may hope to find conversation and the ingredients for an active
| life of the mind.
|
| (NB: dang serves as a bit of a fountain: hope springs eternal
| in his patient moderation, and we are grateful in return!)
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| HN isn't great for conversations because if you post more
| than a couple of times in a thread you start getting "You're
| posting too fast" messages.
| eimrine wrote:
| HN is maybe fits better for conversations between humans,
| it really sucks if you have to post one message per minute
| or faster.
| randomopining wrote:
| Evolutionary pressure in the form of intra-human competition.
| Look at CCP China vs the US. China is going to add like 80% of
| new coal-powered power plants. All so they can get cheap energy
| to get ahead of the US/West. The US has done the same thing.
|
| Businesses are run by people who want to earn money to get
| ahead of others. Yeah some business are legit creating new
| things, but many are just making people want to buy useless
| widgets or waste their time on an ad pipeline platform.
| moe091 wrote:
| The current stage of development of consciousness that the
| world is going through(and seemingly reaching the end of) is
| one of competition and individualism. There are good and bad
| aspects of this, as with all other stages of development, but
| the level selfishness that comes along with it and motivates
| individuals to destroy things in order to outdo each other
| isn't a universal thing, in the grand scheme of the
| development of human consciousness it's just one of many
| phases.
|
| That's the main reason why I think there's no legislating or
| protesting our way out of the big problems(though that
| doesn't mean those things are useless). The way only way out
| is through the development and maturation of humanity.
| Obviously you can't force that on people though, all you can
| do is focus on your own self-development and give others the
| respect and dignity required not to impede on their own self-
| development, regardless of how much you may disagree or
| dislike them
| lordleft wrote:
| Epicurus is compelling, but I ultimately reject his philosophy in
| favor of Stoicism / Academic Skepticism for two reasons:
|
| a) The Epicurean belief that emotional disturbance/perturbation
| is basically bad stymes emotional thriving. In a podcast with
| fellow Stoic Massimo Pigulicci, therapist and Stoic Scholar
| Donald Robertson points out that this idea is very close to the
| statement "anxiety is bad", a belief that correlates strongly
| with a host of pathological mental conditions/states.
|
| b) The Epicurean aversion to anxiety pushes us away from
| political engagement and many other activities that root us in
| the murk of life.
|
| That being said, there are still many profound insights to be
| gleaned from Epicurus' thought.
| [deleted]
| zvmaz wrote:
| I am sorry but I did not understand your comment. As for
| Stoicism, it is a very hard philosophy to live by if one is not
| temperamentally inclined to the "serenity to accept the things
| [one] cannot change, Courage to change the things [one] can,
| and Wisdom to know the difference".
| seizethecheese wrote:
| But the harder it is temperamentally, the more useful it is.
| zvmaz wrote:
| I don't know. It certainly is an interesting intellectual
| movement. Bertrand Russell wrote scathingly of Stoicism in
| his History of Western Philosophy [1], to which Massimo
| Pigliucci, the author cited above in the comment, responded
| [2]. I tend to be sympathetic to Russell's critique now, as
| Stoicism did not "work" for me.
|
| [1] https://archive.org/details/TheHistoryOfWesternPhilosop
| hy/pa...
|
| [2]
| https://howtobeastoic.wordpress.com/2017/05/11/bertrand-
| russ...
| dashoffset wrote:
| If one is already temperamentally inclined to the "serenity
| to accept the things [one] cannot change, Courage to change
| the things [one] can, and Wisdom to know the difference",
| then they may not need Stoicism.
| jschveibinz wrote:
| I just watched a video on YT that suggests a way to harmonize
| Stoic with Epicurean philosophies. It's worth watching, in my
| opinion.
|
| https://youtu.be/1hl4hBb4_y4
| eimrine wrote:
| 1. What is good about anxiety except of political engagement
| point?
|
| 2. Does a Wise Man (from a Stoicism's point of view) really
| must to care about politics more than just learning? From my
| understanding there are things that are way better than
| politics, for example Math. Anyway we the small men are
| compelled to go wherever the society goes and the more number
| of big brains will care about this, the less really cool things
| will we receive. Stupid men can not obtain mathematical
| knowledge for us, so maybe they are better utilized by doing
| politics? While wise men will do some really awesome things?
| zdragnar wrote:
| What is good about anything bad? Only what you learn from it.
|
| Congenital insensitivity to pain and anhydrosis (CIPA) is a
| condition where a person is incapable of feeling pain- the
| pain sensing nerves aren't properly wired up into the brain.
|
| On the one hand, wonderful! You'll never have to suffer the
| effects of physical harm.
|
| On the other hand, you'll never learn the motor control and
| dexterity needed to interact with potentially dangerous
| objects, and may go extended periods of time not realizing
| that, for example, a fractured bone has become infected.
|
| Experiencing anxiety is a primer for the brain to cope and
| endure difficult situations. Without it, you are essentially
| setting yourself up for failure when something out of your
| control happens.
| daniel_reetz wrote:
| A very interesting question in philosophy is "Why do people
| like scary movies?" - being scared is uncomfortable! A
| related question might be "Why do people eat spicy food" -
| I mean, it's painful!
|
| When you explore the answers to these questions, you may
| develop an appreciation for the magic of the dark, the
| anxious, and the frightening.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| > _yet how many of us believe that we must first learn the art of
| friendship_
|
| In (some) non-anglophone countries, _education_ includes not only
| learning how to do, but also learning how to get along: not only
| _savoir-faire_ , but also _savoir-etre_.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| > These Epicurean virtues are in short supply these days.
|
| Philosophers also have their flaws. Hedonism as seen by Epicurus
| has been taken to an extreme in this modern world and likely back
| then too. People may live too much of a Kierkegaard "aesthetic"
| life rather than an "ethical" one. This of course is the main
| argument that they can choose either/or. We constantly hear of
| people refer to this pursuit of happiness or aestheticism through
| the hedonic treadmill that one can't get off. Instead their
| happiness remains at a baseline regardless of accomplishments
| throughout life.
|
| Seeking pleasure and avoiding pain is not a realistic way to
| live. The existentialists all argue this as quoted at the
| beginning with perhaps a misunderstood Nietzsche idea of the last
| man and the "overman" who overcomes the wasteland by rejecting
| excess pleasure and embracing pain as a source of strength. The
| last man being the end of man due to complacency who only seeks
| pleasure.
|
| Overall I quite enjoyed this article, it feels as if the author
| is trying to defend Epicurus in the sense that he is wildly
| misunderstood. He looks to have a book on literary gardens that
| looks quite interesting. Will probably pick it up.
| t8sr wrote:
| I don't think Epicurus would recognize the hedonistic values
| ascribed to him today. He was not a well man for the latter
| part of his life, and his idea of a life without pain was one
| where he is content with what he has and is surrounded by
| friends. In his letters, this is the theme he always returns
| to.
|
| In fact, of the philosophers we know from that era, Epicurus
| was the only one who wasn't an aristocrat. He came from a
| middle class background and he at his most "hedonistic"
| probably would have thrown a positively simple party compared
| to an average evening at Plato's.
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