[HN Gopher] ISRO successfully conducts landing experiment of the...
___________________________________________________________________
ISRO successfully conducts landing experiment of the Reusable
Launch Vehicle
Author : philonoist
Score : 201 points
Date : 2023-04-02 06:04 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.thehindu.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.thehindu.com)
| philonoist wrote:
| I will not tolerate what @Zurrrrr writes
|
| "It's baffling to me that India is putting so much money into
| being part of the next space race, when they still have such vast
| and prominent problems on the ground.
|
| You could say that for many countries, but there is a difference
| in degree IMO."
|
| Said every racist and ignorant ever. You think we don't have
| people who make cost benefit analysis before investing in such
| projects? We don't have parliament and budget sessions?
|
| The payloads we deploy immensely help us socially and
| technologically advance. Do you know that?
|
| Ed tech itself got eGyanKosh, Swayam, NPTEL, private teachings on
| govt. platforms so cheap that by next year about a quarter
| million adults will be uplifted out of poverty. That funding is
| given to satellites launched by ISRO. Did you know that?
|
| Had it not been for ISRO, we wouldn't have had larger outreach of
| instant cash transfers and payments. Did you know that?
|
| Had it not been for ISRO we wouldn't be able to fight societal
| superstitions or bring in public health education drives let
| alone dumb down power play of society by caste and gender. Do you
| know that?
|
| That also includes targeted courses for farmers about endemic
| genetic problems, weather, pests to Artists about film-making.
| Did you know that?
|
| Even the money we get to deploy other western country's payloads
| makes people lift out of poverties in a single digit of
| percentage of populations in a city for every year! Do you know
| that?
|
| But no. A random pompous clueless stranger on the internet comes
| to an sweet intelligent discussion site and declares he is
| baffled and India should now hold a inter-ministerial meeting to
| stop space projects.
|
| These people have been everywhere from NYTIMES cartoonists to HN
| unfortunately. I don't understand how should one ban from this
| site either.
|
| You are not contributing to the intended discussion of this site
| relating to the link posted, but yourself. You just want to throw
| around how baffled you are and sleep back in your mother's
| basement.
| jsdeveloper wrote:
| you don't ban people for their opinions in free democracies,
| how so ever absurd and outrageous they may be. Probably you
| come from a country where people are banned for their views and
| opinions. But that is not what a free society does.
|
| No world leader is going to read any racist rant on internet
| and make decision out of it, so chill.
| morekozhambu wrote:
| [dead]
| philonoist wrote:
| "Probably you come from a country where people are banned for
| their views and opinions. "
|
| But you do have court cases with real consequences like
| getting fired, paying up millions, or getting jailed for
| expounding racist opinions howsoever absurd and outrageous
| maybe. Sexism just as much. Homophobia just as much. Sadly
| our memory doesn't go beyond the years of Trump card for such
| discrimination. What you are doing here is shifting our focus
| from being racist to being absurd and outrageous. That is not
| tolerable.
|
| Fine, keep him on HN, but allow me to appeal to @dang on the
| site's own guidelines at least. There can be reprieve but not
| reproach.
|
| "No world leader is going to read any racist rant on internet
| and make decision out of it, so chill."
|
| Oh, please. Its Exaggeration for humor. Slapstick comedy is
| another example of exaggeration for humor. You know it. This
| is my way of chilling away the anger.
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| > Fine, keep him on HN, but allow me to appeal to @dang on
| the site's own guidelines at least. There can be reprieve
| but not reproach.
|
| There is no reason for you to have taken my comment so
| personally, and acted like I have insulted you and your
| family.
|
| I made a point and stated an opinion. I'm not racist, or an
| 'ignorant', much as you wish that were the case.
|
| My comment isn't against the guidelines, even if you
| disagree with it. You're the only one in this thread who
| has violated the guidelines.
|
| My comment isn't specific to India. I maintain that any
| country with some of the problems India has should not be
| putting money into a space program to compete with
| superpowers (i.e. for clout), that money could absolutely
| be spent better in other ways.
|
| Rather than engage with me productively, you decided to
| take a lot of personal offense and throw around insults to
| retaliate against a perceived sleight.
|
| If you had said why you disagree, stuck to facts, and had a
| productive discussion instead of a tantrum, then you may
| have resulted in educating and changing not only my mind,
| but all the others that you complain about.
| clocker wrote:
| > that money could absolutely be spent better in other
| ways.
|
| Your opinions are childish so don't really bother me.
| That said, ISRO earns money as well
| https://m.economictimes.com/news/science/isro-
| earns-279-mill...
| philonoist wrote:
| "My comment isn't specific to India. I maintain that any
| country with some of the problems India...."
|
| It still makes you racist. Just that you are racist to
| countries like India, if not India. I mean don't you
| think we already know that? Yet we proceeded because of
| our SWOT analysis favoring such missions. Don't you get
| it that we too are capable of making such decision
| rationally? That contempt attitude is what makes you
| racist.
|
| Repeat after me: "India is not after clout, cheap thrills
| of praise and attention, etc. India gets about 5 million
| dollars profit for a year for launching missions like
| these. All of these are India's welfare money. India also
| gets a single digit population out of poverty every year
| because of ISRO alone. India gets to solve problems like
| high resolution real time monitoring of 100s of
| parametres, which contributes to GDP in millions of
| dollars, not Indian Rupee."
|
| We all know India's societal ailments. We all know India
| takes donations from UN and West. But now? We don't have
| to.
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| > It still makes you racist.
|
| No it doesn't. It just makes you incredibly insecure.
|
| It's not more complicated than that.
| imtringued wrote:
| >that money could absolutely be spent better in other
| ways.
|
| It can't. The amount of money allocated to the space
| program is insignificant and doesn't move the needle.
| There are diminishing returns to putting more and more
| money into the same things. By investing a little into
| every sector you diversity and pick up the low hanging
| fruit.
| MPlus88 wrote:
| [dead]
| HopenHeyHi wrote:
| [flagged]
| golgappa wrote:
| [flagged]
| jimsimmons wrote:
| US wants to go back to the moon to put the first woman and PoC
| on it lol. Talk about spending billions of dollars for a token
| image.
|
| Somehow when Murica does it we should all cheer for it as a
| great ray of hope for all humanity. Anyone else, there's a long
| line of "umm, actually..." guys. They just can't accept that a
| non communist, democratic country can compete with them
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Space program has been taken over by DEI administrator class,
| just like every other institution.
| 1024core wrote:
| > US wants to go back to the moon
|
| ... meanwhile there are people shitting on the streets of San
| Francisco (seen with my own eyes), and people OD-ing (as in
| dying from drugs) on the streets of San Francisco, and
| homeless people camped on the sidewalks by the 1000s in
| cities like San Francisco and LA.
|
| And yet nobody bats an eye when America "wastes" money on
| going back to the moon.
| AnonMO wrote:
| People have been complaining about NASA for decades.In The
| decade of the apollo missions many people in the civil
| rights movement were against spending 20b to send someone
| to the moon and today those same arguments still stand and
| many people still voice them. Maybe your circle is to small
| and you haven't been exposed to diverse opinions.
| simonh wrote:
| I completely support India's decision to develop a space
| program, and I'm a huge fan of the achievements of ISRO, it's
| contribution to Indian society and the advances it's made on a
| very constrained budget. The fact is though that any science or
| technology programme must be prepared to justify its existence
| and contribution to society. I'm right behind you in supporting
| that case, but it is entirely reasonable for that case to be
| questioned.
|
| The US space programme has been questioned in almost exactly
| the same terms since its inception, without any hint of a
| racist motive. If it's reasonable to expect NASA to justify its
| existence on a cost benefit basis, I think it's reasonable to
| question any space programme on that basis. I don't think it's
| reasonable to infer racism in this case when there was no
| specifically racist content in the comment.
|
| If we're going to convert skeptics into supporters, the way to
| do that is respectful reasoned argument, not impugning their
| motives for even asking the question.
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| Thank you! It's ridiculous to accuse anyone who does so of
| being racist or ignorant IMO.
| philonoist wrote:
| The one who you are thanking also wrote this comment just
| below - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35409316
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| Good god you're petty.
| philonoist wrote:
| You don't question an answer-to-the-same-question without
| bothering to read the said answer first, right?
|
| That is what is happening with @Zurrrrr guy. In fact, he is
| not questioning. He is just implying inefficiency and
| opinionating on inferior problem solving skills of India on
| things he won't cite his research on. That is what makes it
| racist.
|
| When US was cross questioned about cost benefit analysis and
| comparative budge analysis, it was promptly done so by NGOs
| and UN backing up with how that strategy is flawed. But US
| was hell bent on prestige of being first in space and that
| reply was apparent and open to criticism.
|
| There was no deeper prodding/questioning into the specifics
| or support of arguments by @Zurrrrr here. There was just a
| quick judgmental attitude which made me claim prejudice in
| him. I urge you read his comment again.
|
| Making someone specifically racist comment is not the bar to
| judge. Why would someone educated make it so blatant in 2023?
| Racists will always incorporate euphemisms and innuendos
| among many other tools to crystallize their thought of
| racism.
| simonh wrote:
| Yeah reading his other comments you have a point. How
| stopping the space programme would help solve 'rape
| culture' isn't exactly obvious to me. Are there any
| countries that solved a sociological problem by not having
| a space programme? Seems daft, and quite possibly
| maliciously so.
| philonoist wrote:
| You know, I was too spaced out to think, but after
| reading your comment, I looked at the bigger picture. I
| had a good laugh, thanks man.
| greggsy wrote:
| Not to mention the skills and industrial development that comes
| with these mega projects. That sort of stimulation benefits
| other industries for generat.
| Aperocky wrote:
| I agree with your rational conclusion, India should continue to
| invest in science, technology and space. It's the way to go,
| more players in space the better.
|
| That said, the sentiment isn't unique to India, and NASA is
| questioned the same since forever. "Will not tolerate" isn't
| something that one should feel or write against an opinion,
| even when presented in a sarcastic way. Make fun of it, argue
| against it, or ignore it, after all India isn't going to stop
| its space program because someone in NYT published a cartoon.
| philonoist wrote:
| Ugh, yeah. I will take your suggestion to heart man. Thanks.
|
| Make fun of it. Argue against it. Ignore it.
| thunderbong wrote:
| You make good points. And regardless of how the person you're
| replying to commented, IMHO you should reduce the amount of
| snark in your reply.
|
| Otherwise, you're really stooping down to the same level.
| philonoist wrote:
| Thanks man. It is because of people like you I grow matured.
| I will remember this to by heart.
| vineethkm wrote:
| I heard this exactly how most Americans reacted to black
| people fighting for their rights.
| 7952 wrote:
| The cost effectiveness of these kind of programs is really
| interesting. It is normal to assume that space is super
| difficult and this plays into the geeky pride we all have. It
| is literally rocket science! And then we all get depressed when
| they go a little over budget or are late. We compare the
| program to an idealised view of excellence that only exists in
| our heads. But compared to other human endeavours science and
| engineering is unreasonably effective. It can break through the
| mess of human conflict and pettiness that holds us back. It is
| a great mechanism for getting people to work together for a
| common cause and we desperately need that. The mission
| objective is secondary to that.
| pncnmnp wrote:
| I'd like to shift the tone of this discussion from vitriolic to
| something more captivating.
|
| Why Explore Space? - https://lettersofnote.com/2012/08/06/why-
| explore-space/
|
| Here is an interesting letter by Ernst Stuhlinger, then an
| associate director of science at NASA's MSFC, written to a nun
| in the 1970s. He explains the crucial role of space exploration
| in a country's growth. This topic sparked some engaging
| conversations on HN in 2012 and 2015:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4372563
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8917045
| djaychela wrote:
| When I see people make comments like that, I always wonder if
| they've done the maths of dividing the cost of whatever
| programme by the number of people in the country. Given India's
| population, it probably wouldn't amount to much per person,
| even if you could magically give it out.
| imtringued wrote:
| It's 1.9 billion USD divided by 1.4 billion people or 1.35
| dollars per person.
|
| The international poverty line is $2.15 per day. The GDP per
| capita in India is $2.2k which means the program costs the
| average Indian 0.06% of their wages or less than a day at the
| poverty line and this doesn't even account for progressive
| taxation where mostly middle class and above Indians pay the
| taxes that fund the space program.
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| [flagged]
| philonoist wrote:
| " If women are empowered, lifted up and don't have to live
| in fear, that tends to result in huge gains for an
| economy."
|
| And what makes you think we don't do that already? Did you
| read monthly public health outcomes and human rights
| outcomes research either by third party or government
| ministers?
|
| Did you see no programs and collaborative efforts by NGOs
| and Government?
|
| Did you see no improvements in critiqued yearly and monthly
| reports of famous research journals like 'Economics and
| Political Weekly' and Ministry of Women and Child
| Development, Ministry of Health and family welfare, etc?
|
| What is your picture on comparative analysis of rape
| "endemic" across other factors normalized, like by country,
| by per capita, by development index, by any rank for that
| matter?
| philonoist wrote:
| "to compete with superpowers (i.e. for clout),..."
|
| Don't you understand that we are not here for show off and
| compete? We are competing against superpowers called
| poverty and societal backwardness, security of merchant
| navy, and all, not WEST. West is our ally and vice versa.
|
| In fact, I have given multiple examples like Ed-Tech
| platforms, internet penetration for MSME, and all, but you
| won't listen only to come back to square one - superficial
| effort against superpowers. If this is not judgmental, then
| what is it? If this is not racist, then what is it?
|
| The project reports are required to detail the outline the
| intended outcomes. Now another round is made for such
| outcomes to be compare at state and national level.
| Multiple permissions and meeetings are done here about
| this. In between all of these, consultants from McKinsey
| and BCG are brought in along with experts to assess the
| practicality of claims. This is not enough for you? Oh,
| wait. you are ignorant, how would you know?
|
| "There is no reason for you to have taken my comment so
| personally..." Why not? You say Indians are inefficient and
| not intelligent enough to have their own problems solved.
| That is racist. It doesn't matter if you talk about a
| country like India or India itself. You are racist to talk
| about a country like India then, that is all. It still
| makes you racist is what I want to say.
|
| "I made a point and stated an opinion." - YOU WERE QUICKLY
| JUDGEMENTAL. Always ask and then say. At least say by
| framing it is a question to get the benefit of doubt.
|
| A closed mind cannot be filled. Nor is an open one with a
| holes under. So please stop suggesting me and start
| listening.
| jacquesm wrote:
| The OP has a stretch of whole bunch of comments where
| they are simply confidently wrong but never admit it.
| Don't bother, it's not worth your time, just flag and
| move on otherwise you'll end up in 10 level deep comment
| threads that go nowhere.
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| That's ironic coming from you given how confidently
| incorrect you were regarding GDPR....
| philonoist wrote:
| All you could muster is tu quoque fallacy. No surprises
| there.
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| > You say Indians are inefficient and not intelligent
| enough to have their own problems solved.
|
| No, I never said that. I didn't even imply it. You just
| decided to 'hear' that and then strike back.
|
| It's so incredibly ironic that _you_ are accusing _me_ of
| having a closed mind in this thread.
| philonoist wrote:
| Well what exactly are you implying sitting on the other
| side of the earth to suggest that Indian could have done
| better elsewhere? Like We Indians never have had that
| thought crossed our mind? We are incapable of running
| cost-benefit analysis and SWOT analysis? Yours is the
| novel idea that we should have paid heed to and should
| now be regretting wasting millions of dollar?
|
| What are you implying or what are you trying to say if
| not my 'hearing' then?
|
| I am all ears now. Go on!
| unmole wrote:
| [flagged]
| achow wrote:
| [flagged]
| achow wrote:
| These kind of higher purpose establishments empowers women.
| These kind of places are magnet for academic oriented women
| science students - provides them stable, safe, intellectual
| environment. There are many such government research
| establishments from Biotechnology to Astrophysics to
| Defence techs.
|
| _Beyond Rocket Boys, The Inspiring Rocket Women Of India
| 's Space History_
|
| https://www.indiatimes.com/trending/rocket-women-isro-
| scient...
| philonoist wrote:
| The parent comment is implying that if every person donates
| anything on their personal capacity, this project would
| have been funded and executed easily. He is asking you to
| not bother with anything more than donations alone, had you
| been Indian.
|
| But here you are bothering about India's perverse fixation
| about competing with West. Heck, If West violated every law
| there is and blatantly copied to advance its interests and
| no one else, India doesn't have money to fight in ICJ
| courts or otherwise. Why are you making your ignorance so
| apparent for no one to sympathize with you?
| reacharavindh wrote:
| I'm not going to argue to prove what is ignorant or not.
| But, I just want to point out the flaw in your thinking and
| hope that you would open your mind enough to think about
| it.
|
| By your argument, if India should stop investing in science
| and having its citizens explore space, and only focus on
| lifting people out of poverty or empower women, I'd love
| your take on the USA, the single biggest economy in the
| world, the mightiest superpower which could solve the
| problems of 1. People dying because of the healthcare
| system, or the school kids dying because of lack of gun
| control, or those living homeless in just a flick of its
| policy? Should the USA stop NASA for a couple of years
| until those problems are fixed? Should the USA stop all its
| road building projects until all its issues are solved?
|
| India, poor as it may be, has brought some wonders into the
| world of science, particularly space missions, at times
| launching missions that achieve similar results with orders
| of magnitude lower costs with truly innovative ways. Please
| don't categorise people, science and innovation based on
| where it comes from.
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| People want to keep drawing comparisons to the US, which
| obviously has a ton of issues, (and FWIW I'm not even
| from the US), but I absolutey think those issues should
| be addressed as a priorty as well. But as I said
| originally, there is a difference in degree between the
| extent and type of problems facing the two countries, and
| dare I say one set is more severe than the other.
|
| > India, poor as it may be, has brought some wonders into
| the world of science, particularly space missions, at
| times launching missions that achieve similar results
| with orders of magnitude lower costs with truly
| innovative ways.
|
| I would never doubt that or claim otherwise.
|
| > Please don't categorise people, science and innovation
| based on where it comes from.
|
| What comment did I make that indicates that is what I am
| doing? I don't, and would not do that.
| somedude895 wrote:
| > racist and ignorant
|
| > random pompous clueless stranger
|
| > sleep back in your mother's basement
|
| > sweet intelligent discussion site
|
| You're certainly not acting like you're interested in keeping
| this space "sweet and intelligent"
| philonoist wrote:
| Well, my apologies. I became testy and had to blow off the
| steam. I felt like exploding.
|
| I can't be fighting a fellow bully and simultaneously be a
| student participating in group discussions in classroom when
| it comes to arseholes like the above.
|
| This one was the first or maybe second from my side since
| 2014. You see, I couldn't have imagined this rude surprise of
| racism at HN. It felt so personal, even though there is no
| abnormal attachment to my country, I felt I had to give him a
| good earfull.
|
| I have nothing against comments of criticism like these, even
| though coming from a fellow Indian, you see -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35407658
|
| It doesn't feel like I got blew by my own people reading that
| comment. It didn't knock the wind out of me. It didn't make
| me insecure.
| HopenHeyHi wrote:
| [flagged]
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| [flagged]
| unmole wrote:
| > I won't bother responding further.
|
| Going by your comments, the level of discourse will probably
| improve.
| psnehanshu wrote:
| >I have no time for patriotism or tribalism. While I'm aware
| we don't live in a single global society, that's what I
| believe our ideal should be (A kind of Star Trek society),
| and that's what I want to work towards. Petty tribalism is
| very much at odds with that.
|
| Tribalism has existed since day 1 of human civilization and
| it has shaped the world we live in today. Your ideal world is
| a bluff.
| unmole wrote:
| > Instead, we have people jumping through hoops to deny
| things, and trying to provide links to disingenuously claim
| certain issues are not as serious as they are, or to try and
| falsely equivocate them to other countries like the US.
|
| On a post about a reusable launch vehicle, you posted a
| irrelvant comment about how rape was endemic in India. People
| refuted your assertion with facts and figures.
|
| > It's funny to see the sheer amount of people hurling
| insults at me, based on incorrect assumptions
|
| So, you are not going to acknowledge your incorrect
| assumptions?
|
| > There is nothing intelligent about choosing to take offense
| at a neutral statement, then resort to distractions and
| untruths, and to attempt to censor people from a discussion.
|
| Your statement was not even remotely neutral. Please point
| out these _untruths_.
|
| > I have no time for patriotism or tribalism. While I'm aware
| we don't live in a single global society, that's what I
| believe our ideal should be (A kind of Star Trek society),
| and that's what I want to work towards. Petty tribalism is
| very much at odds with that.
|
| On a cost basis, India's space program is probably the most
| efficient in the world. So, let's give up the petty
| tribalism, shut down all the other space programs and
| redirect all that funding to ISRO. That would be the best way
| towards a Star Trek future.
|
| > In any case, if my sentiment was wrong, then I would have
| appreciated an informative, challenging and productive
| discussion
|
| And I would have appreciated an informed and well thought out
| comment instead of a puerile low effort one. Yet here we are.
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| Every post you've made here is so clealry stemming from
| emotion and the need to be defensive. Maybe put that aside
| and actually deal with facts and figures, and not perceived
| slights.
|
| > People refuted your assertion with facts and figures.
|
| No, they didn't. And I could provide a lot more links and
| provide a much mroe compelling argument, but despite your
| beliefs, I'm not trying to make India look bad and have
| nothing against India. Besides, my posts would just get
| mass downvoted no matter their credibility.
|
| > So, you are not going to acknowledge your incorrect
| assumptions?
|
| I made none, rather it's you and others making incorrect
| assumptions and jumpting to be defensive.
|
| > Your statement was not even remotely neutral. Please
| point out these untruths.
|
| And why would I bother to engage you in actual debate when
| you're being so clearly biased and emotional thorughout the
| thread?
|
| > So, let's give up the petty tribalism, shut down all the
| other space programs and redirect all that funding to ISRO.
|
| I don't really agree with that, but I am definitely in
| support or a global combined space program instead of
| wasted resources.
|
| > And I would have appreciated an informed and well thought
| out comment instead of a puerile low effort one. Yet here
| we are.
|
| That's ironic, given the low quality and guidelines
| violating nature of your posts. My initial comment could
| have led to productive discussion, but hurt feelings
| prevented that.
| unmole wrote:
| > Every post you've made here is so clealry stemming from
| emotion and the need to be defensive. Maybe put that
| aside and actually deal with facts and figures, and not
| perceived slights.
|
| Are you a shrink now?
|
| > No, they didn't.
|
| What are these, alternative facts?
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35409029
|
| > And I could provide a lot more links and provide a much
| mroe compelling argument
|
| Why didn't you do it in the first place? You refuse to
| put in any work into your comments, and then complain
| that people don't take you seriously.
|
| > I'm not trying to make India look bad and have nothing
| against India
|
| I don't think you are. I just think your worldview is
| informed by a hyperbolic narrative than actual facts.
|
| > I made none, rather it's you and others making
| incorrect assumptions and jumpting to be defensive.
|
| For the third time: You made a factually incorrect and
| entirely irrelevant comment about rape being endemic in
| India. You're dismissing people refuting your claim with
| easily found facts and figures as being defensive.
|
| > And why would I bother to engage you in actual debate
| when you're being so clearly biased and emotional
| thorughout the thread?
|
| So, no actual argument but just crying the victim?
|
| > My initial comment could have led to productive
| discussion,
|
| Your comment was:
|
| > It's baffling to me that India is putting so much money
| into being part of the next space race, when they still
| have such vast and prominent problems on the ground.
|
| Vague, dismissive and low effort. Predictably it did not
| lead to a good discussion.
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| > Are you a shrink now?
|
| No, and I don't need to be. It's obvious. As is the way
| you are distorting everything else in your reply here.
|
| Besides, the irony and hypocrisy of you saying things
| like
|
| > I just think your worldview is informed by a hyperbolic
| narrative than actual facts.
|
| When you asked if I was a shrink for simply observing how
| (very obviously) your comments were coming from an
| emotional rather than a rational place.
|
| It's clear you are not engaging in good faith but just
| being defensive, and I have no time for such one-sided
| discussions. In fact, all of your replies seem downright
| _petty_ , like you're throwing rocks at me because you
| don't like what I said, rather than you're interested in
| having a civil debate.
|
| I'm sure you'll reply again, however I have no interest
| in replying further, because it clearly isn't a good
| faith discussion interested in objective facts and truths
| - anything critical of India is just going to be
| dismissed, denied or whataboutismed - that's if my reply
| isn't just mass flagged out of spite to start with.
|
| Best of luck to you.
| philonoist wrote:
| [flagged]
| Thorentis wrote:
| [flagged]
| 7952 wrote:
| It is a low effort comment based solely on the country.
| Whether or not that is racism seems like semantics. And then
| it turns the argument into an American culture war rather
| than actually considering the issues involved.
| shmde wrote:
| People particularly bring the same dumb boring argument "Why
| do X when you can do Y ?" when India tries to accomplish
| something other than trying to bring it's citizens above
| poverty.
|
| It's like commenting why is NASA sending a probe to outer
| space instead of providing free healthcare for all in USA.
| You don't see this comment on every NASA achievement post do
| you ? Why should it be any different than when ISRO achieves
| something.
| Thorentis wrote:
| [flagged]
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| San Francisco has job opening to collect human poop off
| sidewalks [1] Richest city in the richest country can't
| figure out toilets?! What a joke.
|
| You have lower life expectancy than Poland.
|
| Because you keep killing children, 80% of child deaths
| are from your obsession with guns or giant trucks.
|
| Get off your high horse
|
| https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6063397/San-
| Francis...
| philonoist wrote:
| Yes, it is racist. The suggesting you said was without a
| backup of resources and citations to provide any chance for a
| writer to educate himself and as well as educating readers.
| What exactly are these more important problems? And what
| subset of these problems are we neglecting?
|
| You think our civil service officers don't do cost benefit
| analysis? You think we don't have Finance commission to
| develop an algorithm and spread budgets accordingly?
|
| Racism is looking at us like we are dorks by race. To think
| that the above commentor has posed this novel question but
| not Indians only to do inefficient decision is racist and
| ignorance!
|
| I read Germany making a U turn with respect to Nuclear and
| fossil fuels. Everybody gives deep arguments as if I am
| sitting in the policy think tank. That is why I've come to
| HN.
|
| I see Russia investing in war, everybody gives deep arguments
| I feel like I am in a war room. That is why I've come to HN
|
| I read Australia investing in Hydrogen, Plutonium, Uranium,
| etc. I feel hope in the my children and a bit of excitement.
| That is why I've come to HN.
|
| I see India investing in space, nobody writes the how and why
| behind their "suggestions". Nobody quotes budget session of
| parliaments discussing this at length. Apparently it is
| enough to "suggest a country to do something" and not be
| called out for racism quoting nothing be it citations or
| build up logic behind the suggestions.
|
| As far as my rant, you are falling for tu-Quoque fallacy. At
| least my censure is acting like a reminder to be civil and
| focused to the purpose of this site, and has only conjured in
| reaction rather than prophylaxis or presumptuous preemptive
| warning. What did the racist OP's comment serve, except for
| my arse to heat up?
|
| "and yet you yourself contribute nothing but pejorative."
|
| What? I contribute articles and comments from 2014 and this
| articles is also my contribution. I was hoping at least 10
| people would dwell upon this.
|
| I didn't contribute to the discussion? My bad. I apologize.
| But this doesn't take away my eligibility to slap idiots
| right on their heads when they try to contaminate a space I
| love. I need not get a lifetime moderator license for that,
| certainly not on my own contribution.
|
| So would you mind explaining what actually you want to say?
| rimliu wrote:
| [flagged]
| arcen wrote:
| I honestly agree with everything you have said. I have
| constantly seen self-proclaimed "intelligent" arguments
| which basically make the same assumptions you have stated
| and then have the gall of saying they aren't racist. I
| daresay these individuals need to grow up and get out of
| their colonial mindset.
| Thorentis wrote:
| [flagged]
| unmole wrote:
| > come back to me about starting a space program.
|
| We already have a capable space program which is tangibly
| improving the lives of Indians everyday. And WTF do you
| mean by come back to you? Are you going to fund it?
| philonoist wrote:
| Exactly. The Hubris HN is filled with, is beyond
| astounding. He is beyond useless practically, so uses his
| fingers, username, password to spew wild racist bile, or
| better, sewage.
| philonoist wrote:
| Apparently, our civil service officers and think tanks
| shouldn't create customized solutions to the unique
| problems and prerequisites we face but should ensure to
| come back and stand with an appointment in front of a
| house of a random unqualified internet stranger to meet
| and discuss about starting a space program.
|
| What else? Should we be coming again and again to West
| because we don't have problem solving skills or at the
| least, a mind of our own, that we should ask elites like
| you?
|
| Sewage isn't in the streets? Will you land down in my
| country giving free consultation if I show you cities
| that make you envy to be too costly to purchase a square
| feet of land?
|
| The most intelligent suggestion you could come up with is
| to drop everything in our hands and only make sewages
| disappear. Till then we won't even bath or eat. How about
| that?
| hereiskkb wrote:
| Aside from the obvious fact that nations can spend money on
| multiple objectives at the same time, the real un-
| intelligence comes from suggesting that the people of the
| country actively involved in various civil programs are
| somehow incapable of taking care of their problems. Are you
| insinuating that they are perhaps inferior and need rescuing?
| Because India has seen how that goes very personally before.
| andai wrote:
| _Exploratory spaceflight puts scientific ideas, scientific
| thinking, and scientific vocabulary in the public eye. It
| elevates the general level of intellectual inquiry. The idea that
| we 've now understood something never grasped by anyone who ever
| lived before--that exhilaration, especially intense for the
| scientists involved, but perceptible to nearly everyone--
| propagates through the society, bounces off walls, and comes back
| at us. It encourages us to address problems in other fields that
| have also never before been solved. It increases the general
| sense of optimism in the society. It gives currency to critical
| thinking of the sort urgently needed if we are to solve hitherto
| intractable social issues. It helps stimulate a new generation of
| scientists. The more science in the media-especially if methods
| are described, as well as conclusions and implications-the
| healthier, I believe, the society is. People everywhere hunger to
| understand._
|
| _Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot_
| cuteboy19 wrote:
| Their naming scheme is so austere. PSLV RLV etc. Just straight up
| descriptions of the objects, nothing more
| alephnerd wrote:
| Unrelated to ISRO's honestly solid step in aerospace but to all
| the commentators on this thread
|
| I'm Desi American and honestly, HN commentators from both India
| and the US need to stop being little bitches. It's made HN go to
| shit.
|
| Boomer American HN commentators - stop being so god damn racist
| about South Asians. Caste and poverty doesn't define us.
|
| Millennial+Uncle Indian HN commentators - stop using the "school
| shooting" trope and ultranationalism. Y'all are basically acting
| like Wumao.
|
| Bring on the downvotes. I'm so sick of all the bullshit on this
| site
| sidcool wrote:
| Congrats ISRO. There will be naysayers. Ignore them and keep
| going.
| db1234 wrote:
| Why India should continue to invest in space technology?
|
| Odisha cyclone in 1999: 10,000 dead. Odisha cyclone of similar
| intensity in 2019: < 50 dead because ISRO was better equipped to
| track the cyclone path giving enough time for Govt to evacuate
| people to safety.
|
| Ignore the ignorant including "liberal", "progressive"
| publications like NYT which publish racist cartoons on Indian
| space program.
| throwheeh7377 wrote:
| [flagged]
| galuggus wrote:
| Could you link an example of this kind of cartoon?
|
| edit: here's a link https://archive.is/g0msl Shocking that the
| NYT published something like this
| sumedh wrote:
| What is shocking/offensive about that?
| unmole wrote:
| In response to a successful mission to Mars, the cartoonist
| decided to reach for a lazy stereotype of a farmer dragging
| his cow along.
| sumedh wrote:
| You are mistaken it's not a lazy stereotype, the
| cartoonist has done his/her research. India has literally
| used cows for testing its initial satellites.
|
| https://www.livemint.com/news/india/the-rocket-science-
| behin...
| ergonaught wrote:
| The entire cartoon uses exaggerated stereotypes to make a
| point. If you think the depiction of the snobbish elite
| is okay, you're just falling into the "it's only racism
| if I don't like it" nonsense.
| philonoist wrote:
| Huh?
|
| When Pakistan successfully became a nuclear capable
| nation in 2000s, Indians had the same reactions - to
| laugh at their stupidity of misplaced priorities.
|
| The cartoon is trying to make an _invalid point and
| insult India with their joke_ , that is how it became
| racist. It did not become racist by the idea of painting
| a set of people with broad brush.
|
| The cartoon shows an unwelcome 'Indian' is knocking the
| door of super powers to be let in the elite club room
| amusing those inside it. If this is the case it is a huge
| discouragement for India because no matter what we do,
| even without any cheap superficial attempt to impress
| other countries, we will be mocked at with backdrop of
| embarrassing history that is no longer true and
| widespread as they make it seem to drive home the point
| with. This callousness is what makes NYT racist.
|
| Is it not racist to think India is hungry and desperate
| for power recognition, show off and then being complacent
| after like the people inside the room?
|
| The subsequent money we get from West to deploy their
| payloads through the same advanced missions was also
| improving our poverty and cheaper for them .
|
| Apart from mere recognition of a fact of our achievement,
| we know we have other problems we are famous for and
| funded by International bodies, including West
| themselves. So what makes NYT want to rub the salt into
| the wound in as if we forgot, at a time of celebration?
| Where else is it coming from, if not from the place of
| disdain onto this other nation?
|
| You have to have some special kind of psychopathy to make
| fun of other country's poverty when they do know that the
| space missions are conducted after calculating all the
| costs and SWOT analysis taking into account of such
| poverty. Or do you think we are not intelligent enough
| for that?
|
| It is this contemptuousness that I call NYT racist, not
| the one you elaborated upon.
| sumedh wrote:
| > Where else is it coming from, if not from the place of
| disdain onto this other nation?
|
| Maybe instead of accusing someone of racism, try to
| appreciate the history behind the joke.
|
| Cows were used for initial testing of satellite, so the
| NYT guys have done their homework.
|
| https://www.livemint.com/news/india/the-rocket-science-
| behin...
| philonoist wrote:
| Oh my god, I know this article!!
|
| Please stop this spreading this non-sensical
| misinformation.
|
| The cartoon shows two formal dressed westerners in elite
| space club room startled by one uneducated man knocking
| with a dhoti and starving sleepy cow he catches by a rope
| just like village people used to do strolling on the
| streets of the past.
|
| Is this the research you do to depict our Indian
| scientists and leaders or is it the idea that elitist
| differentiation of class, wealth and societal
| backwardness was to be shown here?
|
| Besides, nowhere on the article it mentions that they
| have done their homework based on this story. Cows were
| not used. Open Bullock carts were used. Do you think
| putting a bullock cart in a cartoon would have been more
| difficult task to achieve than putting a Chandrayan on
| Moon? But no, you just have to stick to stereotype and
| squeeze out a rational meaning from it.
|
| Give me a good citation and accuse me of throwing the
| racism card around.
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| > Maybe instead of accusing someone of racism
|
| @philonoist did that right out the gate in this article
| with no evidence or support. It's their goto thing.
| unmole wrote:
| I don't think the cartoon is racist or offensive. I was
| trying to explain why some people found it distasteful.
| And stereotyping someone as _elite_ is surely not the
| same thing as stereotyping someone as poor?
| delta_p_delta_x wrote:
| To add some nuance, I think the cartoon goes both ways,
| but unintentionally managed to offend Indian
| sensibilities by portraying them that way.
|
| I think one way to look at it is... The underdog Indians
| managing to rub shoulders with the likes of NASA and ESA
| at a fraction of the latter's budget, which isn't wrong.
| ISRO's missions are typically about two orders of
| magnitude cheaper than NASA's, while still being very
| productive.
|
| Somehow threads about India just devolve into ridiculous
| mudslinging like no other. White people clinging to tired
| old stereotypes. Indians are half to blame too, being
| over-sensitive and oddly conservative.
| unmole wrote:
| > Somehow threads about India just devolve into
| ridiculous mudslinging like no other. White people
| clinging to tired old stereotypes. Indians are half to
| blame too, being over-sensitive and oddly conservative.
|
| There is an additional factor. Anglophone internet tends
| to be dominated by Americans. So, discussions about say
| Denmark don't get too heated because there aren't too
| many Danes participating.
| ngc248 wrote:
| >>> I think one way to look at it is... The underdog
| Indians managing to rub shoulders with the likes of NASA
| and ESA at a fraction of the latter's budget,
|
| How are you getting this through the cartoon? All the
| cartoon shows is a poor asking for permission to get into
| an elite club
| angelgonzales wrote:
| I'm sure that India used its own observation satellites to
| predict weather patterns and storms but western weather
| observation satellites monitor the whole Earth and share the
| information. Not every country should (or can) have its own
| national weather satellite installation.
|
| https://www.nesdis.noaa.gov/current-satellite-missions/curre...
| fooker wrote:
| If a country becomes dependent on information (or anything
| really) like that, it becomes a bargaining tool for
| geopolitics.
|
| The US, in particular is notorious about weaponizing
| sanctions.
| vineethkm wrote:
| Being racist probably helps them deny their own problems, like,
| kids shooting up elementary schools.
| pkphilip wrote:
| As Indians lets not push our chest out a bit too
| much...plenty of people getting lynched in India on a regular
| basis
| alephnerd wrote:
| I'm Desi American and honestly, HN commentators from both
| India and the US need to stop being little bitches. It's made
| HN go to shit.
|
| Boomer American HN commentators - stop being so god damn
| racist about South Asians. Caste and poverty doesn't define
| us.
|
| Millenial+Uncle Indian HN commentators - stop using the
| "school shooting" trope and ultranationalism. Y'all are
| basically acting like Wumao.
|
| Bring on the downvotes. I'm so sick of all the bullshit on
| this site
| delta_p_delta_x wrote:
| Similar NRI demographic, although I'm on the other side of
| the planet, and yeah, this thread is just... Bad.
|
| The people defending ISRO aren't doing a good job of it or
| aren't doing it in good faith, resorting to name-calling
| and ad-hominems.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Yea. That's the internet in a nutshell.
|
| On a separate note, it honestly sucks how HN has
| legitimately gone to shit. A lot of old timers are
| basically boiled frogs and don't realize how alienated
| most other techies are by HN.
|
| @Dang, ik I've harped about this a thousand times (and I
| myself have contributed) but y'all legitimately need to
| fix the toxicity on this board. Lots of early career
| techies don't want to be associated or go on HN. I've
| heard this sentiment across the board from early career
| interns and friends of mine at Cal, MIT, UIUC, UMich, UW,
| IIT D/K/M, and Harvard - all feeder programs to YC
|
| People will still apply to YC of course, but the brand
| has been increasingly tainted. I know for a fact in India
| Sequoia Surge gets the pick of the litter over YC.
| apnew wrote:
| By your own standards, If you remove ageist/political
| stereotypes your comment has actual value addition.
| Something something budhha and jaggery.
| elkos wrote:
| And ISRO has a very very competitive polar low earth orbit
| commercial ride-sharing program.
| geodel wrote:
| So instead of anything useful to say about technology being
| developed by ISRO. You come up with this random rant.
|
| I guess I just ignore the ignorant, including "deeply insecure"
| and raging about minor criticism.
| celticninja wrote:
| So you think they possibly saved 9950 lives, yet a vastly
| greater number live in poverty and a huge proportion of them
| are children with no access to healthcare and education, many
| of them begging in the streets. But yes let's give India a
| round of applause for finding a minor benefit to their $2bn
| spending on space exploration (also ignoring the fact that they
| are not really achieving new science that is not or could not
| be done by more developed nations).
| paper2d wrote:
| What? There are literally hundreds of other uses of our space
| program which if we hadn't developed independently, we would
| be paying exorbitant prices to other nations for the same.
| Launching rockets costs us literally 10x lower cost than
| other nations. This thing doesn't benefit Indians only but
| other nations as well.
| no-reply wrote:
| Are the education and healthcare systems you mentioned an
| indication of the American society where the average person
| cannot afford healthcare, and where children are unsure of
| their gender identity and personal identity? If this is the
| case, my friend, you have failed miserably.
|
| However, despite challenges such as limited food and
| inadequate school infrastructure, the people in question have
| access to affordable healthcare and education, without the
| added burden of student loans. Moreover, they complete their
| schooling with minimal anxiety and confusion over trivial
| matters.
| kkm wrote:
| I can also highly recommend reading: Touching Lives: The Little
| Known Triumphs of the Indian Space Programme, by SK Das (2007).
|
| Excerpt: Touching Lives is not merely a chronicle of the
| community outreach of the Indian Space Research Organisation
| (ISRO). It is the story of journeys to far corners of India
| meeting people whose lives have been transformed by technology.
|
| More books about ISRO:
| https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33814.0
| MPlus88 wrote:
| [dead]
| [deleted]
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| [flagged]
| sirius87 wrote:
| Having a space program and specifically a launch vehicle that
| puts satellites in orbit for other countries brings in foreign
| exchange revenue. Having a _reusable_ launch vehicle is an
| improvement on capabilities for competitive pricing. What 's
| not to like here?
|
| Jul 2022: "ISRO earns US$ 279 mn in foreign exchange"
|
| https://indbiz.gov.in/isro-earns-us-279-mn-in-foreign-exchan...
| anshumankmr wrote:
| This comment comes off like this cartoon:
| https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/media/images/78030000/jpg...
|
| There is no reason India can't do both.
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| [flagged]
| krishvs wrote:
| Ok.....so you expect the scientists who are working on
| space systems to better put their efforts to solve a
| (hypothetical) rape culture?
|
| How do you think their skillsets translate into solving
| rape culture?
| unmole wrote:
| > What comes to mind, just one big thing, is the rape
| culture. T
|
| Could it be that you are just plain ignorant?
| bakul wrote:
| how would the "rape culture" be influenced by india
| stopping its space program?
|
| This is like saying the US should stop spending money on
| lots of things until the gun violence problem is solved.
| manojlds wrote:
| Why are there homeless in the US while US is trying to
| create "homes" in space.
| achow wrote:
| Rape/Population ranking [1]:
|
| USA 27.3
|
| India 1.8
|
| Time to stop all NASA programs!
|
| [1] https://www.nationmaster.com/country-
| info/stats/Crime/Rape-r...
| db1234 wrote:
| India is doing both and more. You have no idea what you are
| talking about.
| Zurrrrr wrote:
| I think you replied to the wrong comment. I specifically
| referenced the rape endemic, and I said the way it is
| being handled is deplorable and woefully inadequate. And
| it is.
| manojlds wrote:
| What's US doing about the gun culture? Your roundabouts
| are ridiculous.
| shubhamkrm wrote:
| Looks like it's being handled better than many Western
| countries:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States
| #/m...
| pm90 wrote:
| India is a vast country with the soon to be largest population
| in the world. There are quite enough people to be doing both.
| shash wrote:
| Probably already is, apparently...
|
| So there's enough people, enough money (sixth largest
| economy) and enough reason to do it, too.
| samuraijack wrote:
| It's baffling to me how westerners don't realize that you could
| solve two different problems in parallel.
|
| When America started its space program, were all of its
| problems solved?
|
| In fact, are all of America's problems solved now?
| san_dimitri wrote:
| Agree. In 1969 while they were busy landing folks in moon,
| the civil rights movement and black panthers were fighting
| for equality and justice. My 2 cents.
| vishnugupta wrote:
| This kind of comment is the first one to show up like clockwork
| whenever a HN story comes up which doesn't mention India and
| poor/corruption/hungry/religion in the same sentence.
| vineethkm wrote:
| True! I wonder if they do realise gun culture in USA, is
| worse than any of the so-called third world nations. India is
| the sixth largest economy of the world.
| localplume wrote:
| [dead]
| actuator wrote:
| This is a technology demonstrator so it makes sense to start with
| just a drop but looking at the size of the launch vehicle and the
| parameters tested here, seems like the progress is coming on slow
| as the article mentions this was first tested in 2016.
|
| I am not very familiar with rockets, so this might be out of
| ignorance but wouldn't the plane like characteristics of this TD
| make it hard to use for actual launch rockets as they travel
| quite a bit up and having the winged body might add extra
| overhead compared to a cylindrical stage.
| mayama wrote:
| Winged body is supposed to be second stage, sitting vertically
| on the rocket which lifts the whole rocket. Winged body cross
| section is almost circular that should match the lifting
| rocket, reducing the drag considerably.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_Flight_Experiment#/...
|
| This winged RLV, vertical landing launchers etc. are research
| programs that are generally under funded low priority programs.
| With the launch of India's human spaceflight program, RLV went
| even further down or priority list. I don't expect anything to
| come out of this in this decade, until after HSP program
| launches.
| actuator wrote:
| Ah, that makes more sense.
|
| > I don't expect anything to come out of this in this decade,
| until after HSP program launches.
|
| From a commercial perspective, wouldn't putting more money
| into heavy launch vehicles and reusability make more sense?
| Russia's space business will take a hit with the sanctions
| and that leaves the market open for a price competitive
| provider other than SpaceX?
| unmole wrote:
| > Russia's space business will take a hit with the
| sanctions and that leaves the market open for a price
| competitive provider other than SpaceX?
|
| Surely, that also leaves the market open for an alternative
| to SpaceX for putting people into space? But yes, reusable
| launch vehicles should be a high priority.
| mayama wrote:
| ISRO has plans for heavy lifter with reusability, latest
| iteration of design named ULV. That is waiting on
| completion of semi-cryo engine they are developing
| (SCE-200), which is supposed to by complete by early 2010s,
| but got delayed. With no further updates on the status of
| SCE-200 after the launch of HSP. With ISRO limited funding
| and personnel, RLV and ULV took back stage after HSP
| program went into high gear.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Launch_Vehicle
| perryizgr8 wrote:
| As an Indian, I'm proud of what ISRO does. With the constraints
| given to them, (financial, political, social) it's a marvel
| they're still able to deliver results as often as they do.
|
| As an Indian taxpayer I'm frustrated that I effectively cannot
| control how my money is used.
|
| The central government spent $2 B on the Central Vista project,
| which is a wholly unnecessary construction project for our 550
| MPs to feel better about themselves. Incidentally, this is the
| same as the entire annual budget allocated to ISRO, which
| benefits hundreds of millions of Indians and no doubt has an
| effect of all of us.
|
| I would much rather they double ISROs budget and let MPs work in
| the perfectly adequate building they already had.
| linux_devil wrote:
| Congratulations , and I am sure this is just a beginning . What I
| find even more interesting is "According to ISRO the
| configuration of RLV-TD is similar to that of an aircraft and
| combines the complexity of both launch vehicles and aircraft.".
| Are there any challenges in going ahead with aircraft like
| landing which is so much different from Space-X landing of
| reusable rockets
| pks016 wrote:
| Congratulations! Listen to Mission ISRO in Spotify, if you are
| interested in India's space journey.
| [deleted]
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