[HN Gopher] The roots of Japan's Indian curry
___________________________________________________________________
The roots of Japan's Indian curry
Author : kizunajp
Score : 134 points
Date : 2023-04-01 13:44 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (one-from-nippon.ghost.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (one-from-nippon.ghost.io)
| johnwalkr wrote:
| The bit about ubiquitous Nepali-owned restaurants makes me
| nostalgic for living in Japan. They may not be authentic but they
| are great for lunch. Typically, at lunchtime, 2 small curries,
| naan, salad and a soft drink bar is Y=800-Y=1000. And it's served
| instantly.
| fsckboy wrote:
| > _The surprising roots of Japan 's Indian curry_
|
| Vermont?
| https://www.reddit.com/r/vermont/comments/bejqjj/yeah_vermon...
|
| https://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/why-is-japans-most-popul...
| hans0l074 wrote:
| Interestingly, the Nepali entrepreneurs also run a lot of
| restaurants here in Finland - along side Indian ones. Though I
| feel that there are more Nepalese ones. The cuisine is almost
| indistinguishable from North Indian cuisine, and I have heard
| from some folks who have visited Nepal, that authentic dishes
| from Nepal are missing from these restaurants. Though I suspect
| that might not entirely be true.
| snowman5678 wrote:
| Interesting! I wonder how much of the indistinguishabilty is
| just them catering to their audience looking for North Indian
| recipes. There are definitely a lot of Nepali recipes that are
| very far from Indian cuisine.
| scheme271 wrote:
| It's almost all catering to local taste and what's expected.
| Nepali food is good but it's not as rich as what you'd get in
| a restaurant. Daal baht (rice with a thin lentil soup) is not
| what people expect if they pay $10-20. Hell, most northern
| indian restaurants feature foods that are way richer than
| you'd see in real home cooked cuisine. The restaurant
| versions invariably have way more heavy cream and butter than
| would ever be used in a typical home.
| j45 wrote:
| North Indian cuisine is more established globally because
| North Indians were either forced to seek economic opportunity
| abroad. It wasn't then alone, but the numbers in many areas
| of the world make it clear off the early waves to the Middle
| East, Africa, England, canada, the us, and beyond.
|
| Partition uprooted and scattered many families from the
| generally 1900's Indian subcontinent across the world in
| waves.
| stevekemp wrote:
| I moved from the UK, where Chicken tikka masala is famously the
| most popular food, and I am surprised that most of the Indian
| restaurants here are Nepalese.
|
| Unfortunately the local Nepalese restaurants seem to have very
| very similar menus, and themed decor, along with a poor record
| of treating their workers fairly.
|
| I do miss UK-styled curries, and Indian food, I think even
| though the foods have obviously been adjusted for the UK tastes
| there is a lot more variety available than in Finland. (Which I
| guess makes sense given the relative populations, and
| differences in terms of the number of Indian people who've
| integrated to both countries over recent decades.)
| brigandish wrote:
| > So if you are craving for spice in Japan, try one of the two
| thousand "Indian" restaurants and you will not be disappointed.
|
| Erm, if you've had a proper curry recently then you probably will
| be. Like everywhere else, foreign foods get tailored to their
| locality or they die. If you fancy a naan filled with sugar and
| some pretty bland dishes then try an "Indian" restaurant in
| Japan. Which should come as no surprise, because plenty of other
| so-called spicy foods here are a) not spicy, and b)
| surprisingly/sadly, overly sweet.
|
| That's not to say that you can't get a decent curry here, but
| you'll have to try harder than just walking into a random curry
| house. And this...
|
| > Indian restaurants outnumber the top 3 pizza chains of the
| country put together!
|
| I think the only food more maligned by localisation in Japan than
| pizza could be Mexican food, which leads us back to spice and
| sugar. I'm not sure what having more curry houses than pizza huts
| _in Japan_ proves. It would mean something in the US or Italy,
| but in Japan?
|
| Tastes differ.
| sho wrote:
| > spicy foods here are a) not spicy
|
| Ha. Can confirm. Lived there 2 years and while I love the food,
| as far as I can tell there is no food available anywhere in
| Japan, at all, that the average south east asian would
| recognise as even mildly spicy. And outside the home islands I
| have observed Japanese people reacting hilariously to the
| actually spicy local food. My favourite was a co-worker who
| literally collapsed to the floor in the foetal position moaning
| after eating a mala hotpot which was, at best, medium heat.
|
| Love the people, love the country, but Golden Curry's bright
| warning red "EXTRA HOT" is not bloody hot at all.
| grogenaut wrote:
| It took months to convince my family that the extra hot was
| mildy warm.
|
| But also at a wagamamas in London I had them do double extra
| hot on their hottest dish and could barely tell. I'm American
| from the Midwest living in Seattle.
|
| I refer to many spicy thing like that golden extra spicy as
| "spicy as katsup"
| xboxnolifes wrote:
| This is my problem with a lot of spiciness advertising
| around me (in America). When I order something advertised
| as "hot" or "very hot", 90% of the time it's either
| medium/mild at best, or just packed with spicy peppers to
| the point of just tasting bad.
|
| But it can be hard to communicate to some people when their
| upper level of spice tolerance is banana peppers.
| grogenaut wrote:
| I think the UK levels of spice are much lower than the US
| having been both places. Throw the pineapple chutney that
| I had at an Indian restaurant Bombay style in London plus
| summer was quite warm and delicious.
| genocidicbunny wrote:
| > This is my problem with a lot of spiciness advertising
| around me (in America).
|
| It might just be a thing around here, but a lot of Indian
| or Thai restaurants have two separate heat scales, the
| 'normal' one, and the Indian or Thai one. One of the Thai
| restaurants that I used to frequent, for example, had a
| scale where 'spicy' was the same as 'Thai mild' and 'Thai
| spicy' would genuinely make your hair stand on end.
| grogenaut wrote:
| It takes so much buy in to get them to take you seriously
| on spice sometimes.
| [deleted]
| yakubin wrote:
| In my experience, "spicy ketchup" is almost never spicy,
| even in the least. What distinguishes it from other
| ketchups is that it's less sweet (but still very sweet).
| The only actually spicy ketchup I found is "Kotlin Extra
| Hot", but I'm not sure if it's a thing outside of Poland.
| grogenaut wrote:
| You mistake what I'm saying. Katsup is not spicy. I'm
| saying "you must think katsup is spicy"... it's more
| funny to people than saying "as spicy as water", "Man
| this catsup shore is spicy" just works better for a joke.
|
| I'll have to try and find the Kotlin extra hot at the
| Eastern European grocery by my house.
| yakubin wrote:
| Yeah, I got that. Just wanted to expand on the weirdness
| of what "spicy ketchup" seems to mean in practice.
|
| Fair warning: "Kotlin Extra Hot", although a bit spicy,
| still doesn't hold a candle to what Indian cuisine can
| offer (or Japanese -- e.g. wasabi).
| grogenaut wrote:
| yes but then I can talk sh*t to my polish coworker who
| loves any polish cultural references. Anyway thanks for
| the referral.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| How is the Korean food in Japan? Korean food is pretty up
| there in spice level.
| rippercushions wrote:
| Not by Thai or Sichuan standards it isn't. But to answer
| your question, denatured Korean food (esp. yakiniku BBQ) is
| widely available, and more authentic versions can be found
| if you head to the Koreatowns found in every major city
| (Okubo in Tokyo, Tsuruhashi in Osaka, etc).
| rawicki wrote:
| Okubo is great. I'd say it's easier to find (if you
| sample random restaurants in Japan) good Korean than good
| Indian or good Thai.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| That's surprising, when I get Coco Ichibanya I think level
| 4-6 is already fairly spicy
| johnwalkr wrote:
| Yeah I was gonna say this. Coco (and also smaller competing
| chain gogo) is Japanese curry that you can find in every
| city and can be ordered extremely spicy. And it's not by
| default but any of the Indian curry places will make it
| very spicy if you ask. I've also gone out of my way to look
| up the most authentic places for a specific dish, and been
| able to order something so spicy I could barely finish it.
|
| All of that being said, mild is definitely what to expect
| unless you ask for spicy or go out of your way for a
| specific dish.
| metaphor wrote:
| > _Love the people, love the country, but Golden Curry 's
| bright warning red "EXTRA HOT" is not bloody hot at all._
|
| I chuckled at the basis of your comparison being a globally
| commercialized instant product.
| kizunajp wrote:
| The post title was changed to drop the "surprising". Not sure
| why?
| anuraj wrote:
| "Now to be clear, India has no such dish as a curry. No self-
| respecting Indian restaurant has a "curry" on their menu. They
| would have a Palak Paneer or a Malai Kofta or a Murgh Makhani -
| all of which we lump into "curry" - but no "curry"
|
| - This is patently wrong. Curry is a South Indian word referring
| to vegetables originally (Malakkarry means vegetables). Come to
| Kerala - you have Moru Curry (Butter Milk Curry) , Erachi Curry
| (Beef Curry), Tharavu Curry (Duck Curry) etc. The author is a
| North Indian oblivious of curry history.
|
| "krri veppaanentullllt kaatttti[?], virrkin maatrN
| muttttillivitte"
|
| [kari veppaanenthullathu kaattil, virakinu maathram muttillivide]
|
| "What is there to make curry in the forest? Only firewood is
| available here" - Kiraatham Thullal by Kunchan Nambiar, Malayalam
| poet Circa 1750 AD.
| techaqua wrote:
| website is called "one-from-nippon"
|
| op's name is japanese
|
| > The author is a North Indian oblivious of curry history.
| tkadur wrote:
| > Curry is a South Indian word referring to vegetables
| originally (Malakkarry means vegetables)
|
| FWIW, Kannada has no such word. kribeevu ("karibevu") refers
| specifically to the curry plant and (as far as I know) there is
| no word "kari" which refers to curries in general.
|
| My parents had always told me that "curry" was, therefore, a
| generalization and anglicization of various dishes containing
| curry leaves. But seeing as "kari" is a word in several other
| South Indian languages, perhaps Kannada is just the odd one
| out.
| kizunajp wrote:
| As I clarified in another comment, I was trying to make the
| point that curry is a genre of foods (as your examples
| illustrate).
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35400253#35400453
| whitemary wrote:
| With all due respect, you failed at making that point, but
| now at least your intentions are understood.
| kizunajp wrote:
| I agree. Half the comments are about that one statement.
| You might be on to something here..
| dfxm12 wrote:
| FWIW, I understood exactly what you meant on first
| reading.
|
| _Now to be clear, India has no such dish as a curry._
|
| The wording "no such dish as a curry" is a little
| ambiguous here as to if you mean a single menu item
| called "curry" or items from the genre of curry. This
| might be were people are tripping up. _However_ , you
| make yourself crystal clear with the following sentences:
|
| _No self-respecting Indian restaurant has a "curry" on
| their menu. They would have a Palak Paneer or a Malai
| Kofta or a Murgh Makhani - all of which we lump into
| "curry" - but no "curry"._
|
| If someone is saying you failed at making this point, I'm
| not sure they read the whole paragraph, or are just
| willfully ignoring the context and are looking for an
| argument.
| dEnigma wrote:
| I don't agree that this point is crystal clear. If they'd
| written "They would have a Palak Paneer, or a Moru Curry,
| or...." and at least included one dish with "curry" in
| the name, then there would've been no such confusion. But
| as it stands it sounds to me like it's claiming there is
| no actual Indian dish that contains the word "curry".
| [deleted]
| anuraj wrote:
| Curry refers to vegetable originally and dishes made out of
| that. Curry Koottu means Masala. We have been using this word
| from time immemorial.
| user- wrote:
| > Now to be clear, India has no such dish as a curry
|
| Shit, gotta go ask my mom what shes been calling curry my whole
| life then.
| joshuaissac wrote:
| > Curry is a South Indian word referring to vegetables
| originally
|
| Not exclusively to vegetables. It originally comes from 'kari',
| meaning 'blackened' or 'burnt', and referred to cooked
| vegetables and meat.
|
| 1. https://www.etymonline.com/word/curry#etymonline_v_491
| kelipso wrote:
| That etymology might actually be wrong. The kari for
| blackened, burnt, etc comes from kri where the r sound is a
| dental flap type r sound, while the kari for curry comes from
| krri where the r sound is the typical r sound. So it's more
| likely the etymology is from malakkarry, which means
| vegetables, meaning than kari from the blackened, burnt, etc
| meaning.
| joshuaissac wrote:
| Perhaps, but the difference is pronunciation is not
| definitive evidence.
|
| For example, curry veppu (curry tree) is pronounced with
| the regular r sound in the standard dialect, but in some
| dialects, it is instead kariyaappu with the dental flap r
| sound (the 't' in American English 'atom').
|
| The kari for 'burnt', 'blackened' is also related to
| 'karuppu' for 'black', which is pronounced with the regular
| 'r' (like curry) instead of the dental one.
| anuraj wrote:
| That etymology is probably wrong. I posit - it comes from
| 'Kant/rikkuka' means to cut and cook. Kari vs KaRi.
| discordance wrote:
| Bose's original Nakamuraya original restaurant is still open and
| running, located in a passenger tunnel between shinjuku-sanchome
| and shinjuku station.
|
| I found it a quite odd spot and configuration, considering the
| history.
|
| More detail here:
|
| https://wattention.com/restaurant-review-shinjuku-nakamuraya...
| flyaway123 wrote:
| Thanks for sharing.
|
| On a side note, I find it quite curious how the resolution on
| this image from WAttention [1] mismatches. From the OP, the
| couple portrait attributed to Wikipedia, which is the latest
| 2018 retouched version [2], has a much higher resolution and
| specifies @Press as the source. The 2016 original version [3]
| matches the couple portrait on @Press [4], which has the same
| blueish hue and the additional artifacts. This links back to
| Nakamuraya's website itself [5], which has the same food photo
| combination as [1], but in consistent resolution.
|
| At first, it seems to me that the couple portrait on [1] was
| (intentionally?) degraded because of the different lighting
| than [5], and the food photo is simply another version that was
| available during the retrieval (notice the crop). On second
| thought, it could have simply been another version that was
| available from Nakamuraya's. TIL images uploaded to Wikipedia
| are encouraged to be enhanced [6].
|
| I wonder, as AI tools getting more pervasive, how many
| variations with artificial details will exist due to constant
| upscaling/downsizing? (Accurate replication might not be
| important in certain contexts, but I imagine artificial details
| will eventually leak into the chain of reference)
|
| Of course, old photos like this are scanned/photographed into
| digital format in the first place.
|
| [1]: https://wattention.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2015/07/Shinjuku-N...
|
| [2]:
| https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Rash_Beh...
|
| [3]:
| https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/f/f5/...
|
| [4]: https://www.atpress.ne.jp/releases/104283/img_104283_8.jpg
|
| [5]:
| https://www.nakamuraya.co.jp/common/img/top/pavilion_img07.p...
|
| [6]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_improve_image...
| thesalsabear wrote:
| Why are Indians getting taught about Indian food?
| _shantaram wrote:
| I doubt it's as deep as you think it is. The author found an
| interesting story to tell and told it.
| thesalsabear wrote:
| I was talking about the comment section.
| _shantaram wrote:
| Ah, well, even in that case there's still a lot of things
| Indian people don't know about Indian food. Just by virtue
| of being Indian we do not learn everything there is to know
| about Indian people / food / culture.
| thesalsabear wrote:
| @_shantaram Maybe. I recommend that you find something
| other an online chat section to learn about Indian food!
| [deleted]
| rawicki wrote:
| From experience of traveling to many countries and talking with
| people about food - not everyone is interested in it. I've
| heard many bad recommendations or people surprised I know the
| dishes they have never tried. And that's okay.
| BozeWolf wrote:
| Ahh, I absolutely love this. I frequently prepare this for
| dinner. This is how you do it: https://youtu.be/QhsrBz9Cceg
| (nope, see edit.)
|
| Fun thing is, my mom sort of makes this... she learned from my
| grandma. Almost the same recipe, except for the spring onion and
| other topings. When i saw this in a japanese cookbook and then
| the video from Kenji, i was totally amazed. Like if my grandma
| learned this from Kenji.
|
| But we are as Dutch as Heineken. Where did my grandma got this
| recipe from... 50+ years ago? Probably some magazine and then an
| indian curry recipe from the uk? Who knows :-)
|
| Edit: the image on top does look different from what I mean
| though. Interesting. Apparently there also is a different style
| of japanese curry.
| rjh29 wrote:
| Two different types of curry.
|
| The article/image are about Indian restaurants in Japan, which
| tend to have a large naan and a few small metal bowls of curry.
|
| The one you're talking about is usually known as 'curry rice'
| (kareraisu) or 'Japanese curry' and has its roots in English
| beef stew, but with spice powder added. It is eaten over
| regular sticky white rice, often with a pork or chicken cutlet
| on top. I personally love it.
| sowbug wrote:
| Co Co Curry in Japan is my favorite of the second kind. It's
| easy to come close at home, as dole says, but the restaurant
| lets you pick the exact spice level, and they always get the
| rice just right: sticky enough to carve out with a spoon, but
| still porous enough that it absorbs the curry sauce.
|
| Go Go Curry is also worth a visit, and their US franchises
| are reasonably authentic. But it's a slightly different
| style: darker sauce that's more tangy than umami.
| johnwalkr wrote:
| Co Co is great in how much you can customize it. I always
| go for very spicy curry with potatoes and fried chicken on
| top.
|
| Go Go is funny in that they list the calories of each meal
| in terms of rice balls. And some are like 10 rice balls!
| They used to have a world champion curry, limited to a few
| orders per day per store [1]. 2.5kg!
|
| [1] https://14fourteen.jp/wp-
| content/uploads/2019/08/b3bb8c6af2d...
| rawicki wrote:
| For me, my neighbourhood Co Co had completely broken
| spicyness scale - 3 was not spicy enough, 4 was the most
| I could eat (and it goes to 10!).
| bigyikes wrote:
| I tried Japanese curry for the first time in San Francisco a
| couple of weeks ago. Absolutely delicious.
|
| I definitely noticed the English vibes. Actually, it reminded
| me a lot of Southern US homestyle food. Swap the rice for
| some potatoes and you could've fooled me.
| kizunajp wrote:
| You're right! While I was doing the research for this article
| I found this to be an interesting read on Japanese curry aka
| kareraisu: https://metropolisjapan.com/the-origins-of-
| japanese-curry/
| BozeWolf wrote:
| This is great! Thanks!
| dole wrote:
| S&B Golden Curry (Mild, orange box) is what I grew up on as
| "curry rice."
|
| Onions, potatoes, carrots, beef stew meat, super easy.
|
| https://www.sbfoods-worldwide.com/lp/us/golden-curry/
| Brajeshwar wrote:
| I'm not much into food. I'm kinda the "I eat because I have to."
| My disclaimer is that I'm not an expert but here are a few
| interesting stories that might be relevant to this story.
|
| I come from a place where there is a huge influence of the
| Japanese and grew up in folklores punctuated with Japanese
| stories. I got to know a tad more, when one of my school-friend
| took a keen interest in digging up British and Japanese soldiers
| remains from the World War, built a museum, and is regularly
| invited as a diplomat by both the Japanese and the British.
|
| I grew up visiting many Japanese monuments, including the last
| stand of the INA's holding place in India where Subhas Chandra
| Bose worked with the Japanese.
|
| For the food, from the story, I'm of the believe that the curry
| is more Bengal-ish than further mainland India. The food from my
| place are a major blend of our olden recipes spiced up with the
| Bengali recipe, with an additional dose of East Asia.
|
| Also, most Indian Restaurants in India, if not owned, are pretty
| much run (cooks, etc.) by Nepalese. And most "Chinese"
| restaurants by Bengalis. Of course, the "Chinese" food in India
| are, well, very very Indian-ised.
|
| I also grow up memorizing most scenes from "Bridge on the River
| Kwai" as that bridge, after crossing, goes through my home-stage
| to advance into India during the war.
| gumby wrote:
| > I grew up visiting many Japanese monuments, including the
| last stand of the INA's holding place in India where Subhas
| Chandra Bose worked with the Japanese.
|
| Rash Behari Bose (the subject of the article) and Subhas
| Chandra Bose were entirely different people from different
| generations.
| hzay wrote:
| I appreciate your account but
|
| > Also, most Indian Restaurants in India, if not owned, are
| pretty much run (cooks, etc.) by Nepalese.
|
| Nope. Never seen a Nepalese cook in Chennai or bangalore?
| _shantaram wrote:
| Yeah, here in Chennai, Odia and Bihari cooks are much more
| common :P
| rayiner wrote:
| > Also, most Indian Restaurants in India, if not owned, are
| pretty much run (cooks, etc.) by Nepalese. And most "Chinese"
| restaurants by Bengalis. Of course, the "Chinese" food in India
| are, well, very very Indian-ised.
|
| A great many Indian restaurants in the US are also owned by
| Bengalis. I visited a Bangladeshi restaurant in Atlanta that
| was advertised as such. The owner mentioned that most of the
| Indian restaurants in the city were owned by Bengalis, so he
| decided to be open about it when he started his own.
| nerdponx wrote:
| I used to live above a very conventional Indian restaurant in
| New York, and once in conversation the owner mentioned to me
| that he was from Bangladesh. I asked him if were any
| interesting special dishes from Bangladesh that we don't
| normally see on Indian restaurant menus in America, and he
| just shrugged and said something to the effect of "meh, it's
| all the same anyway." I thought that was kind of interesting.
| The food also wasn't particularly good, so maybe he just
| isn't really a food guy and came into owning the business
| somehow other than a passion for the culinary arts.
| gumby wrote:
| Had a friend who ran a restaurant in Palo Alto. He had been
| trained in a three Michelin star restaurant in Burgundy.
| When they opened they had rabbit, squab, and other great
| dishes, but hardly anyone would order them. Steak and
| salmon were the most commonly ordered. It wasn't worth
| buying what is considered more "exotic" by the clientele --
| they just couldn't sell enough.
|
| But when they threw a party at home...!
| rippercushions wrote:
| Bengali cuisine is definitely a thing. Lots of fish and
| mustard oil.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_cuisine
| n1b0m wrote:
| Interestingly, most "Indian" restaurants in the UK are run by
| Bengalis
| danans wrote:
| Indian when referring to the cuisine doesn't really refer to
| the political entity of modern India. Most of those
| restaurants serve a version of Punjabi food anyways.
| TRiG_Ireland wrote:
| In Ireland, I'm used to the idea that Indian restaurants are
| run by Pakistani men, and Chinese restaurants are run by
| Malaysian women.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| There are a significant ethnic Chinese minority in Malaysia
| and ethnic Chinese are the vast majority in Singapore.
|
| So they can possibly be "Malaysian women" and also ethnic
| Chinese.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| > Also, most Indian Restaurants in India, if not owned, are
| pretty much run (cooks, etc.) by Nepalese.
|
| Really? There must be some odd social dynamics behind that
| because it sounds so implausible going from demographics alone.
| gumby wrote:
| This kind of phenomenon is pretty common, basically due to
| network effects. Consider how many small town motels in the
| US are owned by Patels. Or those "Chinese" (definition and
| style changes in every country) restaurants: regardless of
| the cuisine written on the window (Sechuan, Hunan, Cantonese,
| Shanghaiese...) what is the ethnicity of the owner likely to
| be (depending on what country you live in)?
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| Or the USA "greek diner" phenomenon of the 20th century.
| sthatipamala wrote:
| Immigration. India is a bigger economy than Nepal and
| Nepalese come there to do work like this.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Also, restaurants are competitive, wages are low, and
| barrier to entry is low (no required credentials), so they
| naturally lean more immigrant heavy.
|
| In the US a lot of professionals end up taking menial jobs
| because their credentials do not transfer to the US.
| fakedang wrote:
| Cheaper, more diligent, less likely to cause issues.... Well
| at least these are some of the reasons I've been told.
|
| Also Nepalese isn't necessarily Nepali citizens. India and
| Nepal are so intertwined, both countries citizens have free
| passage across each other. A significant percentage of Indian
| citizens in the very highly populated states of Uttar
| Pradesh, Bihar and Bengal are of Nepalese origin. I would
| assume the total number of Nepalese Indians would be at least
| 30-50 million, considering that the collective population of
| the above 3 states alone amounts to roughly 460 million.
| [deleted]
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Interesting!
|
| I take issue with the common claim that 'curry' isn't a thing in
| a 'real' Indian restaurant. I did a quick survey online and could
| not find a single solitary Indian restaurant menu without curry
| on it. From the fanciest to the common takeout joint. There are
| even chains like 'Curry House'.
|
| Let's tone down the virtue signaling in food reviews. It's silly.
| There are 150 languages in India; there are as many cuisines. To
| claim knowledge about the 'real Indian' food or culture is
| transparent nonsense.
|
| On another slant, it's a rampant issue in YouTube videos where
| anybody with an Italian accent claim only they know how to make
| real Italian food. Learn a little history, folks.
| kizunajp wrote:
| I was making the claim that if you went to a restaurant in
| India, you wouldn't normally find any menu item called "curry",
| because curry is a genre of foods and not one single item in
| Indian cuisine.
| unmole wrote:
| If you went to a restaurant in Italy, would you find any item
| called pasta?
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Saying "No self-respecting restaurant in India" may be a
| better way of putting it.
| kizunajp wrote:
| That makes sense. Thank you.
| j45 wrote:
| It is a fair claim.
|
| The word rarely exists on its own.
|
| It has roots in some Indian languages, but is not pervasive
| like it is today across all Indian cuisines.
|
| Part of this is interesting to learn the stories of the early
| Indians who left India either as indentured servants which
| turned out to be an updated form of slavery, or emigrating as
| labourers from north India (and other areas) and how those
| migrations played out across the colonized world.
| jmillikin wrote:
| This might be a language barrier issue, but I have never seen
| an Indian-style restaurant advertise a dish as "curry" in any
| country I've visited. Even in Japan (I live in Tokyo and have
| several indoLiao Li shops nearby), even if the shop itself
| has kare in the name, the menu will say what each thing is
| (keema, sagh paneer, etc).
|
| Imagine sitting down and opening a menu and seeing something
| labelled "soup" or "sandwich"!
| j45 wrote:
| North Indian dishes like da saag I keens might be evolving
| to care less to use it. But I'd bet that's not just North
| Indian Christine. Restaurant opened by todays emigrating
| Indians are more aware of the choices than 30-50 years ago.
| It was a very different world.
| messe wrote:
| I only know of one Indian restaurant locally here (Ireland)
| that has a "house curry" listed, but the rest of the menu
| is as you describe it.
| Xelynega wrote:
| In that case isn't "house curry" similar to "soup of the
| day"?
| messe wrote:
| It's been a while since I've eaten there, so I can't
| remember if it's that, or something along the lines of
| their own signature recipe.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| I would guess it's an original recipe (with no
| traditional name) and doesn't change daily.
| dagmx wrote:
| The point is that "curry" is a British generalization.
|
| Indian restaurants were historically called curry houses as a
| pejorative.
|
| India has many dishes that one might consider a curry, but we
| have no dish called curry. The only use of the word curry in
| restaurants is to appeal to British nationals (and anyone they
| spread their culture to).
|
| It's an artifact of colonialism.
|
| I also don't understand why you think it's virtue signalling.
| If anything, your appeal to "150 languages in India" is virtue
| signalling because you're trying to make a benevolent
| justification for a word whose history you don't understand.
| Also rich that you say "learn a little history folks" when you
| yourself clearly didn't learn it in this instance.
|
| Now, there is a word "Kari" in several South Indian languages
| but it's used to mean spicy sauce or "kadipoda" which means
| spice mix, both derived from "black" in reference to the use of
| black peppercorns. The generalization into "curry" was one of
| colonial misinterpretation.
|
| https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/04/why-we-ca...
| unmole wrote:
| > The only use of the word curry in restaurants is to appeal
| to British nationals (and anyone they spread their culture
| to).
|
| So, the Curry Points that dot Hyderabad are artefacts of
| British colonialism?
|
| > The generalization into "curry" was one of colonial
| misinterpretation.
|
| Yeah, no. The Telugu _kura_ which is obviously cognate with
| _kari_ is used to mean, well _curry_. How about you tone down
| the misinterpretation and false generalization?
| dagmx wrote:
| Telugu Kari doesn't mean curry in the sense that British
| people understand it. Please actually look up the history
| of what kari is.
|
| The use of curry in Indian restaurants in Hyderabad are an
| artifact of colonialism. Hyderabad in particular caters a
| lot to foreign nationals due to the proliferation of the
| tech sector there.
|
| Anyway What curry dishes are they serving there?
| "Hyderabadi chicken curry"? What is it called natively?
| j45 wrote:
| Probably just chicken something. Well said.
| unmole wrote:
| I assure you, if you ask for chicken curry in any
| restaurant in Hyderabad, they'll know exactly what you
| mean. They might not necessarily serve it though.
| dagmx wrote:
| Of course they know it. They don't exist in a vacuum.
|
| That doesn't mean the dish is "curry".
|
| Just like how many Indians will call it Butter Chicken
| Curry colloquially but the dish is Murgh Makhani.
| unmole wrote:
| > That doesn't mean the dish is "curry".
|
| Is this supposed to be some metaphysical argument? The
| dish is literally chicken curry i.e. _kodi kura_.
| unmole wrote:
| > Telugu Kari doesn't mean curry in the sense that
| British people understand it.
|
| As a native Telugu speaker, I use _kura_ in the same
| sense as the English _curry_ to refer to a diverse class
| of dishes.
|
| > look up the history
|
| Here's some history: Hyderabad was never colonized by the
| British. My grandparents who grew up in Hyderabad State
| and didn't speak any English used _kura_ in the same
| sense that I do.
|
| > Hyderabad in particular caters a lot to foreign
| nationals due to the proliferation of the tech sector
| there.
|
| You don't have the faintest idea of what you're talking
| about. The Curry Points I mentioned are little hole-in-
| the-wall takeaway places that you see in every other
| street corner. They are almost exclusively patronised by
| Telugus. Forget foreigners, even migrants from other
| states usually find the spice levels too high.
|
| > Anyway What curry dishes are they serving there?
| "Hyderabadi chicken curry"? What is it called natively?
|
| I haven't heard of a distinctive Hyderabadi variant but
| they obviously serve chiken curry which in Telugu would
| be called _kodi kura_. Google Maps is your friend: https:
| //www.google.com/maps/search/curry+point/@17.5057149,7...
| dagmx wrote:
| India was colonized. Whether they specifically colonized
| an area or not is irrelevant. Indian regions don't exist
| in isolation.
|
| Kari in telugu is not the same as curry. The colloquial
| use of it as such is an artifact of British rule. You
| dont exist in a bubble.
|
| Kura is not the same as a generic curry. Not all things
| that are considered a "curry" are Kura or Kari
| unmole wrote:
| > Indian regions don't exist in isolation.
|
| Hyderabad existed as a politically and culturally
| separate entity. The ramifications of these historical
| distinctions play out in politics to this day. See
| Telangana statehood for an example.
|
| > Kari in telugu
|
| You keep bringing it up but to the best of my knowledge
| there's no _kari_ in Telugu.
|
| > The colloquial use of it as such is an artifact of
| British rule.
|
| Do you have a source that isn't your ass?
|
| > Kura is not the same as a generic curry.
|
| Oh knowledgeable one, please tell me more.
| danans wrote:
| > Hyderabad existed as a politically and culturally
| separate entity
|
| The only culturally separate population I know of on
| earth anymore are the Sentinelese on the Andaman and
| Nicobar islands.
|
| Hyderabad's name itself is Arabic+Persian, and compared
| to India overall, far more people speak English there. It
| was a regional capital of South Asia. Cosmopolitan places
| like that are always cultural crossroads. Practically
| everyone/everyplace is a mutt, culturally and
| biologically, the world over, except perhaps the
| Sentinelese.
| dagmx wrote:
| Sorry I meant Tamil Not Telugu. But the point remains the
| same. Curry in the British sense is not curry in any
| Indian sense. Kari doesnt imply a specific gravy dish, it
| implies a spiced sauce component. Saying you want a curry
| dish is like saying you want a cream dish when you order
| murgh makhani. It's incongruent and a conflation of
| modern colloquial use vs the actual dish. Just like not
| ever meat dish is a ragu in Italy.
|
| And Hyderabad may have been politically separate. It's
| not culturally separate. Unless you purposefully deny any
| migration.
|
| Hyderabad is not some unique snowflake among the Indian
| diaspora.
| notahacker wrote:
| > Kari doesnt imply a specific gravy dish, it implies a
| spiced sauce component
|
| So a bit like how us Brits use "curry" then...
| dagmx wrote:
| No because there's no dish that's a curry. It's a
| component of a dish. Furthermore it's a very specific
| component historically pepper based.
|
| This is the problem. You borrowed a word that you don't
| understand the depth of and are now arguing that it
| should be used in your way when people raise what it
| actually means. It's a co-opting of a cultures word and
| cuisines.
|
| There is no dish that's "curry". The British generalized
| it to be all spiced thick stews.
|
| Would you call an eggs Benedict "a hollandaise"? Or roast
| potato's as "chips"? No because there's specifics to a
| dish that you afford it because you're familiar with it.
| Calling them curries and expecting that to be the actual
| term is ignorance.
| vrc wrote:
| Kodi kura was the exact example that popped into my mind.
| Kura is a cognate/derivative from some Dravidian root
| similar to Kari/Curry (I believe Malayalam and Tamil use
| the kari form)
| j45 wrote:
| Agreed, and, using a word from one area of India might not
| be suited for applying to all of it.
|
| That cross pollination of words is something the English
| language seems to do from time to time.
|
| Every area of the Indian subcontinent was a rich area of
| its own languages, music, food and more.
|
| For me north, South Indian cuisine and everything in the
| between is worth getting to know as and where it is.
| [deleted]
| sampo wrote:
| > Now, there is a word "Kari" in several South Indian
| languages but it's used to mean spicy sauce or "kadipoda"
| which means spice mix, both derived from "black" in reference
| to the use of black peppercorns.
|
| Is this the same word as "kara", black, in Turkic languages?
|
| Apparently, speculatively, yes:
| https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-
| Japonic/...
|
| Also Japanese "kuro".
| dagmx wrote:
| Yes Turkish and Sanskrit have a lot of shared words or
| similar ones due to various cultural sharing
| 8ytecoder wrote:
| Curry comes from the Tamil word (krri kari). The curry we have
| today is a mix of different influences - Ancient Indian
| (mustard, fennel, cumin, black pepper, curry leaves), Mughal,
| and Portuguese (Chilli pepper, tomato). There are subtle but
| important difference but they all share some similarities -
| especially the spices. Although curry powder (turmeric,
| coriander, fenugreek, cinnamon, cumin, black pepper, ginger,
| and cardamom) - those are every day spices in South India which
| was where most spices where exported from, historically. And we
| use that exact combination to this day.
|
| I see it frequently in British cooking shows - trying to lay
| claim for curry. I'm sure curry has evolved like with any
| cuisine. But it's absolute bonkers that even James May seems to
| think that curry originated in Britain. Now, that's some fine
| poppycock.
| bakul wrote:
| Supposedly curry comes from the tamil word (transliterated as)
| "kaRi" which may be related to black pepper (native to India)
| to spice things up. In all Indian languages the color black has
| a very similar name (in Gujarati Kali (feminine) or kalo
| (masculine) etc. -- also the goddess Kali -- the one who is
| black or death!). More generally associated with something
| burnt (blackened). Anyway, a spicy sauce would be kaRi. In
| restaurants in South India you may find various dishes named
| curry (such as kozhi curry or kozhi kari). But when most
| everything is spicy, why even say that? Indians would rather
| know _what_ is in a recipe than _how_ it tastes! [Lot of
| speculation here: perhaps some knowledgeable Tamil will correct
| this without getting all upset!]
|
| I should also point out "curry leaves" -- not sure if there is
| a connection with curry. They are not spicy but are put in many
| Indian dishes to give them a certain flavor.
| dagmx wrote:
| To add to your point on curry leaves:
|
| > Curry leaf" comes from the Tamil word "karu-vep-ilai"
| ('black neem leaf'), leaves of the sweet neem plant Murraya
| koenigii
| bakul wrote:
| Thanks! In Gujarati we call it "meettho limdo" or sweet
| neem. It is dark green but not black (except when left in
| the 'frig for a few days or on the plant when it is sick!).
| dagmx wrote:
| There's some possible history further back in our
| languages where kala might have meant darker not just
| black.
|
| Similarly the etymology of Krishna (the deity) is both
| considered "dark" or "black" depending on whom you ask.
|
| I suspect it may be a case where our languages at the
| time didn't need to delineate between black and a dark
| colour. Tone/shade was a relative unlike hue.
| vrc wrote:
| Telugu is karivepaaku. Same stuff.
| Avshalom wrote:
| Well on the italian note calling 'curry' 'a thing' is like
| calling 'pasta sauce' 'a thing'. Like sure in a very vague
| sense but if you went into a restaurant and it had "Noodles
| with pasta sauce" as a dish it would (I hope) make you pause at
| least.
| anon291 wrote:
| I mean there is no dish that is curry similar to how sandwich
| isn't a good. Sandwiches are a class of food with very
| disparate things being called sandwiches. Same with curries.
| The existence of sandwich shops does not mean there is a
| singular dish called sandwich
| j45 wrote:
| Handy field reference guide:
|
| - Is it possible Indian restaurants like other cuisine were
| packaged for a non-Indian audience as much as an Indian
| audience?
|
| - Too many people faint at the sight of having to read and
| pronounce an Indian name, how might it go with something that
| isn't short like naan, cha? Even with naan (which means bread),
| bread is added on to hear people say bread bread. Cha/chai is
| tea, and Indians live to hear people say tea tea.
|
| - In this way curry might be a common word added to dishes.
|
| - Next time, at an Indian restaurant, see if you can over hear
| any Indian guests who exclude the word curry from their
| sentence when ordering.
|
| - Maybe it's worth asking Indian mothers if the word curry was
| used by them.
|
| - The etymology of curry is readily available. At most it's a
| style of cooking (like bbq).
|
| - There's actually over 500 languages in India, but they might
| have been all the same to the British, so let's just call it
| all a curry.
|
| The only dish I can think is kadhi which is made with cooked
| yogurt. It's not spelled or pronounced like curry.
|
| I hope that helps with the offence :)
| riffraff wrote:
| I see your curry imported by British, and I raise you Spaghetti
| Naporitan[0], pasta with ketchup and american bacon invented by a
| Japanese who was inspired by US army rations.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naporitan
| abudabi123 wrote:
| Amex celebrity chef Jack Chaplin does a quick chicken curry in
| five minutes.
|
| + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW6BwqVKtsU
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Interesting to compare/contrast with how in the Philippines
| it's popular to eat spaghetti with ketchup (or a ketchup-y
| sweet tomato sauce) and chopped up hot dog
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| And "carbonara is an American recipe" [1]. ( _Budae-jjigae_ is
| closer to your example [2].)
|
| [1]
| https://www.ft.com/content/6ac009d5-dbfd-4a86-839e-28bb44b2b...
|
| [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budae-jjigae
| sandGorgon wrote:
| this is a beautiful story, thank you for writing it.
|
| Curry is much like India - you believe in it, thats why it
| exists. And you will curry controversy no matter what you write
| ;)
|
| also, in case you didnt know - Ras Behari Bose and Subhash
| Chandra Bose are the most mysterious of Indian freedom fighters.
| With the exact history unknown to this day. Ras Behari Bose
| created the INA and adopted the resolution that made Subhash
| Chandra Bose as the leader, while he was living in Japan.
|
| Even today, the Indian parliament is rocked with demands that the
| "secret files" be opened. The Netaji papers were recently
| declassified - https://nationalarchives.nic.in/content/netaji-
| papers - but the papers are not complete.
|
| Japan has consistently REFUSED to declassify some of the Bose
| files (https://thewire.in/history/japan-netaji-death-files)
|
| So you see, the Japanese curry is far far more mysterious than
| you think !
| throw0101c wrote:
| _Tempura_ also has foreign origins:
|
| > Tempura _(Tian pura or Tian Fu Luo ,_ tenpura, _[tempWra]) is a
| typical Japanese dish usually consisting of seafood, meat and
| vegetables that have been battered and deep fried. The dish was
| introduced by the Portuguese in Nagasaki through fritter-cooking
| techniques in the 16th century. The word_ tempura _comes from the
| Latin word_ tempora, _a term referring to times of fasting when
| the church dictated that Catholics go meatless.[1]_
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempura
| dagmx wrote:
| A lot of Japanese dishes that are popular today have foreign
| origins.
|
| Tempura, curry, ramen, and salmon for sushi.
|
| It's why I find it hilarious when some people obsess over the
| authenticity of Japanese food and deride fusion cuisine.
|
| It (much like most great cuisines) is the result of intermixing
| and interpretations of dishes.
|
| Many Indian dishes too wouldn't have existed without foreign
| interaction. Potato dishes obviously (which are very prevalent)
| but even things like Butter chicken or many Mughal based
| dishes.
|
| The origin of food is in many ways just as as interesting as
| the etymology of words.
| ipqk wrote:
| One of my favorite Indian dishes is Poori Masala (eaten with
| Poori obviously), which is mostly potatoes & tomatoes, both
| of which come from the New World.
| dagmx wrote:
| I was trying to think of which of my childhood dishes could
| have existed without the new world imports.
|
| So much of Indian cuisine today is so heavily influenced by
| the new world.
|
| I found this Reddit thread that went into it a bit which I
| found quite fascinating.
|
| https://reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4rwri1/what_was
| _...
|
| Even the lentil dishes, where lentils were native, now have
| a lot of new world additions to enhance them.
| Taywee wrote:
| Very many dishes in nearly every cuisine have at least some
| foreign origins. The majority of spices and seasonings used
| in most countries originate from many places all over the
| world.
|
| The idea of any pure culture (locally, ethnically,
| linguistically, or culinarily) is a complete myth, unless
| that culture has been entirely isolated from every other
| culture for its entire development.
| j45 wrote:
| A lot of Indian dishes have Persian, Mughal influences.
| danans wrote:
| And it goes way beyond Persian influence.
|
| vindaloo ~= Portuguese vinhalo (wine/vinegar flavored)
|
| Southeast asian ingredients introduced via trading
| empires based in South India (i.e. nutmeg).
|
| Tomatoes, chilies, potatoes, all pre-Columbian American
| products introduced to India by the Portuguese.
|
| Tea (from China by way of the British)
|
| Coffee (introduced even earlier than tea via the Arab
| trading networks via Yemen during the Ottoman empire).
|
| Some things are actually bidirectional. Biryani, the
| Mughal/Persian rice dish emerged after rice was
| introduced to the middle east in ancient times, probably
| via India, and it came back in the form of Biryani.
| cuteboy19 wrote:
| Tea in India came by way of land, before the British
| vrc wrote:
| Potato, tomato, chili.
| https://contingentmagazine.org/2020/06/25/curry-before-
| colum...
| franciscop wrote:
| Salmon for sushi seems not to be the famous story that was
| going around. Like, it has all the tenets of a nice fake
| story, talking about Japan and how a foreign more familiar
| power outsmarted them, but apparently salmon was popular way
| before Norway theoretically started marketing it:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k4x9FrD5k4
| dagmx wrote:
| That video isn't the refutation I think he thinks it is.
| I'm sure there's more nuance than "Norway invented salmon
| sushi" but his argument is a little flakey imho.
|
| His premise is based on American documents of sushi, but
| salmon was already a popular fish in the west by then. So
| it stands to reason that they'd use local fish for this
| dish that depends on good quality protein.
|
| I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong but his process of
| arriving at the result is weird, so I don't think he's
| necessarily right either.
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