[HN Gopher] PC keyboard hides an interesting secret
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PC keyboard hides an interesting secret
Author : jandeboevrie
Score : 104 points
Date : 2023-04-01 05:31 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (linuxjedi.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (linuxjedi.co.uk)
| HPsquared wrote:
| Modern version of this would be nice, using WiFi Direct and a VNC
| server for using phone as a screen.
| bdcravens wrote:
| > The one glaring issue here, is that this machine's hard drive
| has not been cleaned out. I bought it from a computer recycling
| company so I would have expected the hard drive to been erased.
| But a quick skim of the drive and I can find documents, emails
| and unfortunately even porn.
|
| This is probably pretty common, and there's so much opportunity
| for abuse. I can only assume that for all of the security out
| there, a trip to thrift stores and garage sales would keep your
| average identity thief busy for very little money.
| h2odragon wrote:
| People throw their PCs away. Many places gather "e-waste" in
| special piles for recycling. Just digging through that pile
| will get you more than you wanted.
| fortran77 wrote:
| Not that _I_ ever have anything untoward on my computers, but
| this is why I sledgehammer all my PC drives before recycling
| them. (My biggest fear is there 's enough information to get
| access to a bank account, or otherwise impersonate me.)
|
| Today, I use whole-disk-encryption on everything, but I still
| wonder if there's ever a hidden partition or unallocated space
| with something on it, and it's not worth worrying about it.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| I assume whole disk encryption is no longer the ssd killer it
| used to be?
| matja wrote:
| It was ever?
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| It was my understanding that yes.
|
| OS encryption would prevent controller from understanding
| what's on the drive and managing it correctly, up to and
| including effectively disabling trim command as
| controller would never see blocks as empty.
|
| This is back in days of ocz vertex. It wasn't like
| advertised / warned on the box, it would _work_... Just
| like western digital didn 't warn about wd red becoming
| SMR drive while being advertised for Nas. But it would
| eventually kill performance and drive. You'd have to read
| Tom's hardware and anadtech etc to learn about it. I
| don't really follow anymore so I don't know how nicely os
| full drive encryption and ssds play today.
| matja wrote:
| FDE doesn't prevent TRIM, but the dm-crypt implementation
| defaults to disabling TRIM because it has theoretical
| security consequences. The option to enable it was
| introduced in Linux 3.1 (2011)
| flaviut wrote:
| No, definitely not. You can either use the SSD's built-in
| firmware encryption, which is always on anyways (to allow
| for fast erase), or you can configure your system to send
| TRIM commands.
| makapuf wrote:
| This seems unneeded waste, maybe 10 random complete writes
| (or/and usage of paranoid safe deletion utilities) would be
| sufficient to erase the disk effectively?
| bombcar wrote:
| Physical destruction is "for sure" but a simple full wipe
| and reinstall is fine for most people.
|
| But most people don't even bother. And with browsers saving
| passwords it's probably even a worse idea now.
| maxerickson wrote:
| If it was used for very long it will be old enough to not
| really be worth much anyway.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| The first rule of erasing a drive is you can't erase a
| drive, whether it's a solid state or hard drive.
|
| If you want or need to render the data on a drive
| inaccessible by any and all means, there really is no
| option other than physical destruction of the drive.
| crazygringo wrote:
| If you use full disk encryption, all you have to do is
| throw away the key. Works for solid state and hard
| drives.
| fbdab103 wrote:
| Single pass disk encryption or zeroing is fine if you are
| not facing a nation state actor.
|
| I do not think I have seen any credible threats that over-
| written data extraction works on modern drives. Maybe there
| are tricks where the SSD knows better and allocates blocks
| off to the side where it is not getting wiped, but those
| are supposedly addressed by TRIM (with dubious vendor
| support)
|
| If someone comes across a drive that is zeroed or
| randomized, who is going to attempt some forensic
| investigation to retrieve the contents?
| fortran77 wrote:
| I'm not worried about a nation state spending a billion
| dollars. I'm worried about someone looking at an
| unalloated section of the drive, or in the sectors that
| the drive marked "bad", etc.
|
| A low-level 0 write just takes a long time on a drive of
| even 1TB. So I sledge. And then I can look at the drive
| and know it's OK to toss.
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| Zeroing it is fine no matter who you're facing, to be
| honest.
|
| The NSA don't have some big magic machine that can
| recover data that's been overwritten. It's gone.
|
| The idea of using some latent amount of data on the disk
| and somehow averaging it all out to get the old data
| might maybe have worked a tiny bit on old MFM drives in
| the 1980s.
| fortran77 wrote:
| That requires connecting the drive to a working computer
| and hours of time. Compared to several quick blows. The
| metals in the drive can still be recycled even if the glass
| platters are shattered.
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Since when are the platters glass?
| fortran77 wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_disk_drive_platter
| crazygringo wrote:
| I had no idea, but it turns out they're a mix:
|
| > _Platters are typically made using an aluminium, glass
| or ceramic substrate. As of 2015, laptop hard drive
| platters are made from glass while aluminum platters are
| often found in desktop computers._
|
| > _In 1990, Toshiba released the MK1122FC, the first hard
| drive to use a glass substrate... It was originally
| designed for laptops, for which the greater shock
| resistance of glass substrates are more suitable._
| roughly wrote:
| Huh, TIL. And a link from there to explain why:
|
| https://books.google.com/books?id=BjoEAAAAMBAJ&dq=hard+di
| sk+...
| [deleted]
| tenebrisalietum wrote:
| Zeroing the hard drive is sufficient; e.g. with Linux dd
| command. Old spinning rust is great for encrypted backups (I
| treat them like tapes).
| bdcravens wrote:
| Even a simple reformat (which isn't very secure) would be
| worlds better than what happened here.
| sushiburps wrote:
| At the height of bitcoin I wonder if the value of e-waste
| magnetic storage should have technically been higher due to the
| possibility of salvaging a lost wallet. Like ore mining, but
| for data.
| harvey9 wrote:
| Like this
|
| "Newport man's plea to find PS210m hard drive in tip"
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-55658942
| indymike wrote:
| When I need to destroy a hard drive, I use 1TBSP of Thermite
| (or stump remover if you go to the local ag supply store). Of
| course, the drive isn't very useful after, but it's so much
| fun.
| macintux wrote:
| Reminds me of the Coleco Adam, which was a computer combined with
| a printer. My college roommate owned one, which I took shameless
| advantage of.
| jonstewart wrote:
| My first computer! And: sort of. There was a separate box for
| the CPU, but the power switch was located on the daisywheel
| printer.
|
| The word processor was in ROM, it had a slot for playing Coleco
| game cartridges, with two game controllers, and then there was
| its tape deck. It came with tapes for Buck Rogers and the BASIC
| interpreter. Once BASIC had been loaded, then you could swap in
| your own tapes for saving and restoring programs. It generally
| took a couple of minutes to use the tape drive.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| My dad's first computer before the C64 (portable!). I vaguely
| remember playing a space shooter game on it.
| amelius wrote:
| Modern, more powerful, more compact, equivalent:
|
| https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/
|
| By the way, people say it's a great learning tool for kids but
| when I search for "kid using pi400" on youtube there are zero
| results.
| tgv wrote:
| Is it more powerful? Well, more memory, better video, but in
| terms of OP/s?
|
| But I don't think it's such a great thing for kids per se. It
| depends on the experimentation environment they get. The
| hardware is almost irrelevant. Something as direct as a
| Commodore 64 looks more appealing to me than VSCode on a
| Raspberry.
| amiga-workbench wrote:
| Its a Pentium 4, its going to spend half of its clock cycles
| with a stalled pipeline.
| bombcar wrote:
| Unless they're following a particular course based on a
| specific thing like a Pi they'll probably be better off with
| some older repurposed hardware, an old desktop PC with some
| sort of Linux perhaps.
|
| The Pi shines when you're interfacing with relays and sensors
| and stuff, for software alone a PC or laptop will be fine.
| speedgoose wrote:
| Are the raspberry pi still produced? They are always out of
| stock unless for very brief periods on some random stores,
| which makes me believe some may purchase some old stock once in
| a while but nothing is getting out of a factory.
| pclmulqdq wrote:
| The original pis were made to sell some chips that Broadcom
| had a ton of excess inventory for, and needed to move (hence
| why the price was so low compared to other SBCs at the time -
| the main SoCs were free). The modern version is now competing
| for a chip that's in demand, and can't offer the same price
| that other people can. They are still being produced since
| Broadcom doesn't want to cut them off completely, but not
| nearly as available.
| mazurnification wrote:
| Do you have source for the claims? I doubt especially of
| free parts. As of rumors I have heard about Broadcom it is
| extremely "capitalistic" company. If you move a lot of
| chips price can go down a lot (due the fact that NRE
| divides to more units). The cost of chip manufacturing
| alone is not that big - example Apple A14 bionic chip was
| estimated to cost 17$ to manufacture [0] and it should be
| waaaaay more expensive than anything in RPI.
|
| [0]
| https://www.idownloadblog.com/2021/01/07/iphone-12-bill-
| of-m...
| squarefoot wrote:
| Unobtanium as everything Raspberry Pi today.
|
| So Why not this one which is roughly the same thing but is
| available for purchase in hundreds?
|
| http://www.orangepi.org/html/hardWare/computerAndMicrocontro...
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJyRGnLPBe8
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS7qhKF8wGE
|
| I know the Raspberry Pi has that huge community behind, but
| alternatives like this one can spark the interest of kids who
| need incentives to grow, and this one offers well above the
| minimum necessary without serving them the whole dinner ready
| to eat. When I cut my teeth with M68k asm in the early 90s all
| I had was a terrible book poorly translated in Italian whose
| code examples were written half in German and half in English,
| a local BBS and no Internet; they can do a lot more with
| today's tools without any need of a huge community.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| > Unobtanium as everything Raspberry Pi today.
|
| You picked a bad time to complain about this, because a whole
| bunch of Pi 400s have been popping up in stock over the past
| few days.
|
| rpilocator doesn't track the 400, but they do tweet when they
| see them in stock: https://twitter.com/rpilocator
|
| As for "why not" the alternatives, it's because they get no
| ongoing support, and don't run mainline Linux, so you're
| stuck with what they ship with, and can never update them.
| cout wrote:
| One problem with this for kids is if it is connected to the
| monitor with a cable, kids used to wireless keyboard may try
| to grab it and get a surprise when it gets disconnected or
| pulls the monitor down with the keyboard.
| RobotToaster wrote:
| That would certainly be an important lesson.
| fbdab103 wrote:
| $136 on Amazon ($99 from AliExpress). Color me very
| impressed. Given the modern web, probably too under-powered
| to be a great experience for a daily driver, but probably not
| terrible if you are not a tab addict like myself.
|
| My problem is the ARM chip and how likely I am going to have
| problems running a non-blessed OS on the thing. A year from
| now, will it be able to install a new kernel?
|
| I also have to face reality in that I have zero real
| applications for the thing other than a cute novelty. I think
| almost everyone would be better served by a NUC ($400+) or
| refurbished SFF PC ($100-200 can be very competitive
| hardware).
| justeleblanc wrote:
| Even Microsoft is going full steam ahead on arm64. It's
| here to stay.
| squarefoot wrote:
| > My problem is the ARM chip and how likely I am going to
| have problems running a non-blessed OS on the thing.
|
| ARM shouldn't be a problem for a long time; there's a huge
| number of boards out there using that architecture and most
| of them are well supported by Linux. Here are some Armbian
| images: https://users.armbian.com/balbes150/opi800/ The
| user is reliable and a regular Armbian
| contributor/maintainer.
|
| > zero real applications for the thing other than a cute
| novelty
|
| I think the main selling point of these devices is for kids
| to carry them in their backpack when they study with their
| friends, so that they have all their stuff in a single
| device that is more usable and safe than a cellphone and
| needs only a video connection, without messing with the
| family computer. A relatively low cost independent device
| with exposed gpio ports could also have some uses in a lab
| to drive external hardware, microcontrollers programming,
| etc. If I had one I would probably use it for such tasks,
| including audio measurement by adding an external sound
| card.
| bioemerl wrote:
| All the raspberry pi alternatives have some really Achilles
| heel software problems where they don't properly support
| everything the raspberry pi does. I will never buy one just
| because I want to run software on these computers and 90% of
| the time the thing I want to just doesn't support these
| things natively.
| gaudat wrote:
| I think that is something YouTube rolled out a year or two ago
| to isolate adult YouTube from kids. You know sometimes a video
| gets marked with a YT kids banner and comments are disabled and
| recommendations on the side bar replaced with generic videos.
| FpUser wrote:
| Pi4 shenanigans (availability and price) completely screwed up
| one of my projects. I will not touch it ever again.
| bigjimmyk3 wrote:
| I can think of a pretty obvious reason why the hard drive wasn't
| wiped: they didn't know it was there. A normal person processing
| a pile of donations would probably look at this and think "huh a
| strangely heavy keyboard," then move on to the next item.
| canadapups wrote:
| I didn't think of that. I guess a completely logical place to
| stash your porn.
| zirgs wrote:
| But why would you donate your hw without wiping it?
| StanislavPetrov wrote:
| Maybe the previous owner was deceased and it was gathered in
| an estate sale? Or left in a storage locker which the owner
| missed a payment on? There are many reasons!
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| That was my first thought. Maybe there are personal photos
| or messages that someone would like a copy of on it.
| skhr0680 wrote:
| The original owner must have liked using filters in Photoshop. I
| can't think of another reason someone would pair a CPU like that
| with modest(for 2002) 512MB RAM and 40GB HDD
| stereolambda wrote:
| Not sure about today, but there was a time PCs were sold on
| overspecced CPUs. The consumer would look at the clock speed
| and think he is getting a "fast" computer. The vendor would
| pocket the savings on putting in weaker everything else.
| anthk wrote:
| AMD Athlon 2000, 1666 MHZ, just 256MB RAM, and a Geforce2 MX
| of 32MB.
|
| People with a Radeon 9700 64MB, 512MB of RAM and a PIII 1GHZ
| did it better.
| weinzierl wrote:
| These keyboard PCs were quite popular in the late 90s. I think
| because many home computers came in that format and manufacturers
| worried that clunky PCs would not be accepted. Turned out that
| wasn't the case.
| kazinator wrote:
| > _The built-in speakers are pretty much what you would expect
| from 2002, pretty much no bass to them, very much akin to average
| laptop speakers at the time._
|
| Average laptop speakers have no bass today; I have no idea what
| this person is on about.
| mxmlnkn wrote:
| I know the graphs but I still find it amazing to see that this
| 20+ years old system runs with approximately the same CPU core
| frequency as today's hardware. The amount of RAM wouldn't suffice
| today, though.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| It does half the work per clock cycle because of the marketing
| driven design.
| opless wrote:
| Title missing the word "this"
| NaN1352 wrote:
| That's so cool. Like an Amiga, but with Intel Inside ;)
|
| I would not have been impressed by the constant churning of the
| HDD though (just a guess).
| Kwpolska wrote:
| The layout with the Windows sticker photo being the largest and
| the most prominent made me think that "this is a keyboard with a
| Windows license". Back in the day, this was a thing, at least in
| Poland, with people selling OEM licenses of Windows attached to
| mice and keyboards and claiming they were legitimate (which I
| doubt, but I also doubt Microsoft cared).
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