[HN Gopher] The Anti-Productivity Manifesto
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The Anti-Productivity Manifesto
Author : imartin2k
Score : 191 points
Date : 2023-03-26 09:15 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (invertedpassion.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (invertedpassion.com)
| [deleted]
| mkl95 wrote:
| > All theory aside, the feeling that you'd be left behind your
| peers is very real. A millionaire lawyer in front of her boss
| still feels that she has a lot to catch up on.
|
| It's not always a feeling though. Criteria for promotion can be
| all over the place. We've all worked with some idiot with a fancy
| title.
|
| If you are not getting a fair shake, the solution is sometimes to
| run away. But you will usually be stuck for emotional or
| professional reasons (you don't want another short stint in your
| CV, you don't have the energy to go through a big tech hiring
| process, etc.)
|
| This kind of contradiction inevitably leads to alienation, then
| burnout. Many workers will quiet quit instead of quitting for
| real, because even if they can afford not to work for a while,
| they still rely on income to progress towards some goal such as
| buying some property, paying off their student loan, etc.
|
| I have been a quiet quitter before it was a term, but what worked
| for me was actually the opposite. Every time I have doubled down
| on some side project with the goal of getting a better gig, it
| has worked out. I make it clear to my manager I hate some aspects
| of my work so I would rather focus on others, and it's up to them
| to make it work. I would rather focus on the _right_ productivity
| than being anti-productive.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _It 's not always a feeling though. Criteria for promotion
| can be all over the place. We've all worked with some idiot
| with a fancy title._
|
| And often we were that idiot for others. It's a matter of
| perspective as everybody tends to think that their farts dont
| stink
| rnmp wrote:
| Shameless plug but I wrote an app[1] with the same idea of anti-
| productivity in mind. Having read the book, the idea of 4000
| weeks in your life can be scary but also inspiring.
|
| [1]: https://www.bleep.is/blog/why-i-made-an-anti-productivity-
| ap...
| cerradokids wrote:
| It's fun being productive, being exceptional, being really good
| at what you do. It's the most fun I have in life, and I have done
| all sort of things (including drugs). I'm sorry the author
| doesn't have this worth living for, fulfilling feeling.
| fasterik wrote:
| _> If you must work hard and be efficient, consciously pick that
| work_
|
| With this one sentence, the whole dichotomy proposed by the
| article falls apart. It all depends on what gives your life
| meaning and what your goals are. If you primarily derive meaning
| from having experiences with friends and family, then it
| absolutely makes sense to devalue productivity. If you primarily
| derive meaning from creating artifacts that will survive for a
| long time and provide benefit to humanity, then it's hard to see
| why you shouldn't optimize for productivity.
|
| A lot of the anti-work, anti-productivity discourse seems to
| revolve around this assumption that some things are more
| meaningful than others independent of individual preferences. If
| people really value competence in a certain domain and "getting
| ahead" is important to them, what ground is there to stand on to
| say that they're wrong?
| 8note wrote:
| > If you primarily derive meaning from creating artifacts that
| will survive for a long time and provide benefit to humanity,
| then it's hard to see why you shouldn't optimize for
| productivity.
|
| You are still devaluing productivity because this is actually
| an agility problem. Optimizing for productivity doesn't
| necessarily make you any progress towards creating long lasting
| artifacts, and instead will draw you into doing infinite work
| before making any progress on those artifacts
|
| The key is to be agile and ensure that your productivity
| furthers the things you care about. Your speed towards
| irrelevant items is irrelevant, but there's an infinite number
| of irrelevant tasks to complete.
| fasterik wrote:
| I don't think that contradicts what I said. The key here is
| how we define productivity. I agree that focusing on
| maximizing productivity in the short term can be a bad
| strategy. What you're suggesting is still what I would call
| productivity; it's just maximizing it over longer time
| scales.
| potatoman22 wrote:
| I interpreted the book to be about living intentionally. I
| don't think the author would say advancing in a field you're
| passionate about is a bad thing.
| fasterik wrote:
| I haven't read the book, but the article gave me that
| impression. Maybe I define productivity differently than they
| do.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Basically, I'm there.
|
| I'm _really_ productive. So productive, in fact, that I have to
| slow down for the rest of the team. _a lot_.
|
| Rather than be frustrated by it, I use the extra time to do
| things like dig out a flowerbed for my wife (ow), or catch up on
| streaming stuff.
|
| But I _really like_ coding, and tend to spend free time coding;
| even though I don 't have to.
|
| It makes a _huge_ difference, not having someone breathing down
| my neck, basically saying "Shut up, bitch. Just go out and make
| me money!"
|
| I don't have a ton of money, but I have enough. I live frugally
| (many folks here, would have contempt for my level of living), I
| can afford good development systems (my toys), and I have a great
| deal of social interaction.
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| Why do you have to slow down?
| 8note wrote:
| Bus factor and deployment safety.
|
| It takes time for the rest of your team to stay up to date on
| what you are doing, and you don't want to release too many
| changes at once, so it's faster to pinpoint which one has an
| error
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Because I'm working with a designer, who is working part-
| time, and have to wait for his renderings. He gets pissed
| off, if I guess. I don't want to have to undo a bunch of
| work, if I guessed wrong.
| navierstokess wrote:
| >I'm really productive. So productive, in fact, that I have to
| slow down for the rest of the team. a lot.
|
| Please teach us mere mortals how to be as productive as you
| are.
| ouid wrote:
| Why is dying without regrets the de facto most important thing?
| You don't take your regrets with you either. If you want to care
| about something, at least pick something that will last longer
| than you will.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| > If you want to care about something, at least pick something
| that will last longer than you will.
|
| Children?
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Indeed... If I don't -- at least temporarily -- regret some
| things it likely means I didn't put much on the line.
|
| Two kinds of regret: 1. Regret making a mistake. Making
| mistakes is part of existence and learning. Regret is a natural
| consequence of messing things up. Moving on from the regret is
| also part of the learning.
|
| 2. Regret for losing something we love, or for loving something
| we can't have. This can be problematic, if not framed
| correctly. But also something we learn to move beyond. But it's
| also, again, part of the richness of a life well lived -- to
| make or seek attachments and feel regret when they're lost and
| to constantly re-evaluate. We lost my mother in law to cancer
| 11 years ago. I often feel regret for not making better moments
| with her before it ended, and so on. That regret is just part
| of the nature of having love and attachment in my life. Giving
| it up would make me a poorer person.
|
| We will potentially all leave this world with a sense of loss
| or regret. If I didn't, I would worry about what kind of
| dissociated detachment I was carrying with me.
|
| I don't know, maybe I will live a rich full life and die after
| I'm just tired of living, with no sense of loss?
|
| I'm an organism that feels both joy and suffering. I try to
| minimize the latter in favour of the former. But there's no
| formula to avoiding suffering that doesn't involve joyless
| detachment. It requires intellectual and emotional effort to
| analyze and deal with every situation. That's just part of the
| story.
| alexp wrote:
| and why is leaving something that will last so important? You
| don't take your legacy with you either, no?
| CatWChainsaw wrote:
| Look upon ouid's works, ye mighty, and despair.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| This seems to be targeted specifically at people who are
| extrinsically motivated and do not prioritize family. In my
| humble opinion that's the worst quadrant of those two variables.
| But apparently, with how prescient this seems to most commenters,
| many people actually inhabit that quadrant. Could that really be
| so?
| [deleted]
| pitched wrote:
| I think it's a lot easier to become productive and efficient at
| work than it is at home (or generally tasks for yourself).
| Because of the structures built to support it only usually end up
| in one environment. That imbalance is what I think leads to
| burnout.
|
| But saying that the solution to productivity is...
| productivity... is just as bad as telling people to meditate
| instead of taking time off work. Probably true! But very
| unhelpful.
| SMAAART wrote:
| I disagree. In our private life complexity is the enemy.
|
| Living a simple, minimalist or quasi-minimalist life, devoid
| from consumerism can increase one's quality of life by an order
| of magnitude.
| ChildOfChaos wrote:
| I agree that it is complexity that is the enemy. It's not all
| about being a minimalist though.
|
| The issue is in work, there are many things already decided
| by other people, you are just the cog in the machine making
| choices in your own lane, after work, in your own life, you
| are responsible for everything and you have to decide, those
| decisions are complex and energy draining and you have to
| make them constantly, your time is limited, so you can only
| choose to do a few things, but how do you know what is best
| and even worse you usually always don't estimate the time
| that is required at all.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Minimalist is not the opposite of complexity.
|
| Really, people working on software should be deeply aware of
| that. You can have both or neither. And if you go radically
| optimizing for one, you will certainly get the unwanted
| extreme of the other (because well, that's what "radical"
| means).
| WallyFunk wrote:
| > Minimalist is not the opposite of complexity
|
| Simple living actually works. I've tried it. Complexity is
| not your friend. But that doesn't mean I avoid complexity
| at all costs. After all I'm typing this on a computer which
| is the most complex possession I have.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Maybe for you, but that sounds like hell. We shouldn't be
| monks whenever we're off the clock, what's the point?
| saulpw wrote:
| To smell the ocean
|
| To kiss your lover
|
| To play with your dog
|
| To ponder the stars
|
| To reflect on what is the point
|
| This is the opposite of hell.
| [deleted]
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Maybe for you.
| saulpw wrote:
| For me and all the sages from antiquity to present day
| and everyone I know who has been truly happy. If these
| things seem like hell to you, you might want to consider
| why..
| vuciv1 wrote:
| Just finished reading this insightful article, and it resonates
| with my recent experience backpacking through Chile. I've been
| amazed by the slower pace of life here, where people seem to
| prioritize relationships, leisure, and hobbies over chasing
| career goals and constantly striving for efficiency. It's
| refreshing to see communities that embrace the idea of enjoying
| the present moment rather than being fixated on a future that
| never really arrives.
|
| As someone in the tech industry, it's easy to get caught up in
| the productivity treadmill, trying to maximize every moment of
| our finite lives. But this article is a stark reminder that
| there's more to life than just work and chasing success. Instead
| of focusing solely on efficiency, we should actively choose what
| truly matters to us, like personal connections, health, and
| happiness.
|
| Chile has taught me that embracing a slower pace and appreciating
| the present can lead to a more fulfilling and content life. It's
| a lesson we can all benefit from, especially in our fast-paced,
| efficiency-obsessed world. Let's not forget that life is a series
| of choices, and it's up to us to prioritize what truly matters.
| ChildOfChaos wrote:
| I love this book. I read it not long after it came out. The
| authors newsletter can be found on his website (Oliver burkeman),
| is also a great read.
|
| I love the basic productivity advice that I believe comes from
| Jung that he quotes, which is basically, figure out something
| worthwhile to do, go do it and then figure out the next
| worthwhile thing to do, complete forever. Something simple about
| that.
|
| Jung points out that this is also a natural way of being, in that
| sense you are living from your true sense of self as you are
| deciding what is important moment to moment and actually living
| your life, rather than trying to make it fit some predetermined
| idea of what you think it should be.
|
| I'm trying to get more into this mode of thinking / being.
| quelsolaar wrote:
| What if i like work? I like getting things done and the fact that
| there is infinite work is an opportunity to me. I 100% respect
| anyone who have other interests, but I like how the work I do
| have an impact and I want to maximize that impact. Choosing to
| not engage is a perfectly fine choice, but if one makes that
| choice one should be aware that one will not have the same
| impact.
| coldtea wrote:
| For most people the impact from their work is negative.
|
| The "selling more shit, destroying more environment, make more
| people obese, putting more ads to make people buy BS to feel
| something, making everybody lonelier, busier, and more
| disconected and depressed" kind of impact.
|
| If one's work indeed has a positive impact, say a doctor or a
| teacher or a nurse or a street cleaner, sure...
| flappyeagle wrote:
| Still reduces to to the same thing. Doctor? You're extending
| the life of people who sell shit. Teacher? You're training
| future shit sellers.
|
| The entire industrialized economy runs off of extracting
| resources to create stuff.
| carlivar wrote:
| Is there any difference between this perspective and
| nihilism?
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| What a depressing world view.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Still reduces to to the same thing. Doctor? You're
| extending the life of people who sell shit. Teacher? You're
| training future shit sellers._
|
| The difference being that a human life is valuable outside
| of what shit they sell in their job. They're also friends,
| spouses, parents, and, well, individuals.
|
| People are not reduced to their job.
|
| Whereas a job selling shit is a job selling shit. It
| doesn't "reduce to", it is 100% that and only that.
|
| Doctors will also treat criminals if they're shot etc., as
| they should - and it's a good thing. Doesn't mean crime is
| good.
|
| I mean, as much is obvious...
| Aaronstotle wrote:
| The entire reason of why a Doctor or Teacher doesn't fit is
| in your response >"You're extending the life of people"
|
| This is a valuable goal on its own, same with
| teaching/impacting other people.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Do you like work when someone else decides everything you work
| on and the impact you're maximizing is the surplus they take
| from you?
|
| What I described is nearly all work as it exists today. I don't
| think most people drown from sipping water
| youngNed wrote:
| -- edit, parent post has been edited to be less
| confrontational making my post somewhat redundant.
| waboremo wrote:
| Unnecessary hyperbole. Here's what's happening:
|
| Article title: Not all water is good for you
|
| Person A: What if I like water? I enjoy drinking it
|
| Person B: Water in all contexts isn't great, for example
| you can drown. So what qualities about water do you
| specifically like?
|
| You see how it's less absurd? Hopefully that's made clear
| now. For future reference, turning everything into
| exaggerated hyperbole is only going to keep you contained
| in your isolated bubbles online and make you all the more
| sensitive to any sort of pushback/disagreement/criticism.
| bckr wrote:
| Agreed, but I think that just removing the all caps would
| make this a good little sarcastic comment.
| kerkeslager wrote:
| Do you like _all_ your work? Or are there things you do at work
| that you do only because you are obligated to do so?
|
| There's a saying, "Money ruins everything" which in this
| context is saying that even if you enjoy what you do for money,
| doing it for money makes it less enjoyable than if you did it
| for its own sake. When you aren't completely doing something by
| choice, you end up doing things that you wouldn't do by choice.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| > doing it for money makes it less enjoyable than if you did
| it for its own sake.
|
| The opposite is true for me. I've suckered my employer into
| paying me to do something I do for free on my own time. What
| fools.
| kerkeslager wrote:
| Please don't quote me out of context. You literally didn't
| even quote the whole sentence. You haven't responded to
| what I actually said.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Add as many of the source words as you want, the meaning
| is the same. Perhaps you should re-read my response?
| jonas21 wrote:
| Do you like _all_ of anything you do? Hobbies, raising
| children or pets, even going on vacation all have parts that
| can be frustrating or annoying, but many people do these
| things anyway because on the whole they find them fulfilling
| and enjoyable. Given that, insisting that 100% of work is
| enjoyable seems like an unfair standard.
| kerkeslager wrote:
| I guess what I'm getting at more is not enjoyment but
| intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. A parent doesn't,
| for example, might not enjoy taking their kid to the
| doctor, but they do it because they want to, not because
| they have to. Nobody has to tell them to do it (in most
| cases--obviously bad parents exist).
| waboremo wrote:
| Yes, I do. I'm not going to participate in my hobbies if I
| don't like all of it. That's what hobbies are for.
|
| Raising children is an interesting one to bring up because
| the vast majority are forced into it, societal pressure
| mixed with accidental situations. I'm sure if you ask the
| older couple who have been trying for ages to have a child
| if they enjoy raising the child they finally adopted if
| they love all of it, they would say yes even the messy
| parts they find joy from.
|
| Vacation is another one, there is no reason to dislike any
| part of going on a vacation, but a lot of people do because
| they go with people they don't really want to go with. They
| go somewhere because it's the top 5 best places to visit
| and not because they truly desire visiting that place. None
| of it stems from a serious desire to enjoy that vacation,
| but an obligation.
|
| Which is part of the problem. A lot of people aren't
| actually taking the time to step back and question whether
| or not they enjoy doing what they're doing. They're just
| doing it because they're forced to, because they don't want
| to get left behind, or they already made commitments.
|
| So I don't believe it's healthy to keep this going and then
| to make excuses for work that we have to hate parts of it -
| cause factually there are many people who LOVE the work
| they do, why can't we all be as fortunate? Step back and
| reflect. Maybe you'll learn something new about yourself.
| 6keZbCECT2uB wrote:
| I can't relate to the other things, but I dislike the
| majority of things that constitute going on vacation. I
| don't like planning the vacation including what to do,
| where to stay or how to get there. I don't like having
| the vacation planned and looming over my head preventing
| me from making long term plans.
|
| However, after all that, there are moments throughout
| which make up for it and make me glad I didn't just stay
| at home.
| Firmwarrior wrote:
| I really liked traveling during off-season times when I
| was self employed for just this reason
|
| You can spontaneously pop on a plane with the family and
| have fun for a couple of weeks, no sweat
| [deleted]
| klabb3 wrote:
| This makes it a hobby, no? A bit unusual, but congrats!
| xianshou wrote:
| Sometimes it's possible to get a pretty good bead on someone's
| worldview from even a short excerpt. In this case, the author not
| only has a low internal locus of control, but seems to adopt it
| as a core belief. Here's the key part:
|
| "Constantly ask yourself why are you working so hard on this damn
| thing. If the answer is: 'so I can get ahead,' remind yourself
| that it's a treadmill and you'll always stay at the same place,
| no matter how fast you run."
|
| Note that this isn't merely a statement that the world is unfair,
| but that it's unfair and any effort you make to deal with it will
| end in frustration.
|
| I find this fatalism both increasingly common and increasingly
| odious. The opposite attitude may be irritating - Steinbeck's
| "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" - but I prefer to reason
| from agency when there's a decent chance the more empowering view
| is right. Rather than concluding that everything is a red-queen
| rat race, why not try to find a corner of the world where you can
| play a better game?
| sanderjd wrote:
| The author is suggesting finding a corner of the world where
| you can play a better game. The better game they are suggesting
| is to hop off the treadmill of external validation, and figure
| out how to find it internally instead.
|
| Like many or most of us here, I spend a lot of my time around
| software people. But I just spent a bunch of time this weekend
| with a group of people for whom music is their way of making
| money in some way or another; teaching it, playing it, writing
| it, etc. Something very striking to me is how much different
| the internal vs. external validation thing is between them and
| me. These are people who get little external validation, always
| scraping by with unstable income, struggling for recognition in
| a crowded field. But they all do it because they just freaking
| love music, they're excited by the possibilities, and almost
| always happy when they're playing. On the other hand, most
| software folks I know are compensated richly externally, but
| often struggle to find peace and contentment internally.
| whiplash451 wrote:
| You might have a sampling problem.
|
| There are definitely artists who live off external validation
| out there.
|
| They just don't hang out with engineers in the weekend.
| sanderjd wrote:
| To be clear, this was a "melding of the worlds" kind of
| event with different families and sundry friends coming
| together, not a "musicians hanging out with programmers"
| social event.
|
| But as is always the case unless you work as a professional
| pollster, I don't have any idea how representative my
| samples are. It was just an observation from my experience.
| hardwaregeek wrote:
| There's a lot we could learn from artists about creative
| practice and enjoying other people's work. I often wish I
| could have gone to a programmer art school.
| Last5Digits wrote:
| I interpreted this statement completely differently. The author
| isn't fatalistic at all, he's merely advocating for a more
| thoughtful approach to spending your time.
|
| If the only reason you work on something is out of a fear of
| falling behind, then you ought to reevaluate your priorities
| and, if you deem it necessary, choose a path that seems more
| fruitful. "Getting ahead" implies judging your life relative to
| others, based on metrics that are societally accepted, but may
| be completely misaligned with your actual desires. Spending
| some time to introspect and to get a grasp on your own idea of
| a meaningful life can be very beneficial.
|
| I think the treadmill analogy is a reference to the hedonic
| treadmill, where you may assume that spending oodles of your
| time pursuing greater wealth or reputation will surely be worth
| it in the end, but are faced with the reality of feeling the
| exact same way as before.
| 8note wrote:
| Rents are too high, and the social safety net is lacking too
| much.
|
| The proper alternative is going homeless, where people have a
| bad quality of life, but both freedom and control.
| cleansingfire wrote:
| I think this is why the Dunning-Kruger effect exists, and why
| casinos make money. Unreasonable hope is necessary if you are
| going to do anything interesting. Failure often teaches more
| than success. Knowing we will die is intimidating.
| https://www.google.com/search?q=wood+allen+the+universe+is+e...
| goodpoint wrote:
| > the author not only has a low internal locus of control
|
| This kind of comment is not very constructive.
| ebiester wrote:
| I think it's the opposite: the purpose here is to say that
| pursuing efficiency so that you have more time will not give
| you more time; it will just give you more work allotted to that
| time. Instead, you first need to prioritize your goals, giving
| your personal goals a relative weight to professional ones, or
| your personal goals will get lost.
|
| I don't think that's low locus of control at all.
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| But you are going to make more money, invest it and have your
| wealth snowball. Then you can retire earlier and choose to do
| the exact thing you want to do earlier since you have money.
|
| And at certain curve the amount of money yoh make matters a
| lot, if you have base expenses. Making 4k vs 2k is
| technically infinite gains if your expenses are 2k. If you
| become more efficient, but don't make more money, then you
| clearly need to work on your ability to sell yourself. And if
| your expenses also grow equally to what you are making more,
| that is also on you.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| > But you are going to make more money, invest it and have
| your wealth snowball.
|
| No. You're going to run into depression faster.
| 8note wrote:
| If you are going to make more money, your rent is going to
| go up, and thus the same thing, you have to do more work
| now for the same benefits
| potatoman22 wrote:
| You don't have to spend more on rent just because you get
| a raise
| tristor wrote:
| True, but unfortunately we now live in a world where
| corporate landlords participate in a price-fixing cartel
| on regional basis and use income verification data to set
| your rent. This means, in many cases, an increase in pay
| means an increase in rent even if you change nothing else
| about your lifestyle.
|
| Side note: price-fixing cartels are black letter illegal
| as fuck in the US, but we don't seem to enforce the laws
| against corporate landlords
| ebiester wrote:
| This assumes two things:
|
| First, it assumes that you will be paid for said
| productivity. If you are doing piecework or sales or
| something where your income has direct proportion to your
| paycheck, this is true. For most people working hourly or
| salary, this is not true. As you mention, you're paid by
| how you sell yourself. This is only nominally related to
| how well you do the job above what is expected.
|
| (If you get a 2% raise for being adequate, 4% for going
| above and beyond, and 15% for working on your interview
| skills and jumping ship, your productivity system is not
| what matters.)
| maxbond wrote:
| It's my experience that when you find yourself thinking, "I can
| understand this person's entire worldview from a short
| statement, and I can use that to dismiss what they're saying,"
| it's a sort of self-inflicted strawman to protect yourself from
| ideas that make you uncomfortable to the point where you refuse
| to believe they originated from a reasonable human being. It's
| simpler and safer to imagine they came from a caricature. (Not
| throwing shade, I'm describing my conclusions from observing
| this behavior in myself.)
|
| That doesn't mean the idea is good, maybe it's a terrible idea,
| but you should seek to challenge your thinking on the subject,
| not protect it and keep it precious.
| moonchrome wrote:
| Or you've seen the same ideas over and over and once you spot
| the pattern you save yourself the time. Your approach sounds
| good if you're young or have infinite energy/time.
|
| Dumpster diving is not a good way to find value even if you
| occasionally find gold.
| bordercases wrote:
| I'm not sure how under your view you could ever disagree with
| anyone at all then. To not fall into the same trap you
| articulate, could you explain what holding a viewpoint
| against another where you disagree with it for good reasons
| looks like? Maybe with an example that works here?
| maxbond wrote:
| Great question. You disagree with them, but you don't
| expand the scope of your disagreement past the matter in
| dispute (eg, you don't go from "we disagree" to "this
| person's worldview is hopelessly flawed"). You don't tell
| yourselves narratives about why they came to that
| conclusion. Narratives about how they will always think in
| a certain way are especially dangerous. In practice, for
| myself, this means more recognizing that these things are
| happening & terminating that line of thinking, and
| reminding myself how little I know about people on the
| other end of a screen. Oftentimes these can be restated as
| constructive questions, like instead of saying, "you are a
| fatalist," you can ask, "this seems fatalistic, this
| doesn't match my own experience, can you help me
| understand?" Remember that most strong disagreements are a
| mild disagreement wrapped in a misunderstanding.
|
| To give a concrete example, maybe you see someone say
| something you find deeply objectionable, like "I support
| affirmative action in college admissions" or "I support the
| right to bear arms." You could say to yourself, here is my
| political adversary, they're a snowflake or a nut job or a
| useful idiot, they are buying into this or that media
| narrative, I can discount them. And that could all be true,
| but you don't actually know any of that at this point. So
| you say to yourself, "the world is a big strange place,
| there are many paths to form this opinion and I don't know
| which one this person took, but if I ask questions and keep
| an open mind we both might learn something." That doesn't
| mean you have to agree with them, you're just not derailing
| yourself with narratives that only serve to reinforce your
| biases.
|
| And to be honest a lot of people are nut jobs and a lot of
| people will bite your head off no matter how politely or
| open mindedly you disagree with them. Which makes it
| difficult to maintain this, and I won't pretend that I'm
| not a hypocrite who regularly fails in this respect. But
| it's important to maintain a headspace where it is possible
| to change your mind, as often as you are able.
| SuperCuber wrote:
| That was a good comment for me to read. I like to think
| about myself that I am of a similar mindset to you but
| now that I think of it I very often discount others'
| opinions because of how I view them and don't catch
| myself often enough. Here's hoping I remember this
| comment next time it happens :)
| vasco wrote:
| > But it's important to maintain a headspace where it is
| possible to change your mind, as often as you are able.
|
| Every single time I look at myself 5 years prior I always
| think that my opinions and ideas were stupid and how much
| more cult and evolved and smarter I am. And then I
| realize 5 years from now I'll think the same thing about
| today.
|
| Best remedy to keep yourself from judging other's
| opinions too harshly and thinking too highly about
| whatever positions you hold. Big +1 to your whole
| sentiment.
| whendoyoushrink wrote:
| You just skipped down the levels of abstractions in a way
| that does not address the OP's point.
|
| > you see someone say something you find deeply
| objectionable, like "I support affirmative action in
| college admissions"
|
| I have no idea why that person thinks that, and can form
| no opinions about them. Even more specifically, outside a
| US context they are meaningless.
|
| Contrast that to the OP example:
|
| > "Constantly ask yourself why are you working so hard on
| this damn thing. If the answer is: 'so I can get ahead,'
| remind yourself that it's a treadmill and you'll always
| stay at the same place, no matter how fast you run."
|
| This is not a statement of opinion about a thing. This is
| not a "policy is X is good" statement. This is the
| framework for how this person forms ALL their opinions.
| This statement could be made by almost any human anywhere
| in the world.
|
| There are, without doubt, things people can say that give
| you "a pretty good bead on someone's worldview from even
| a short excerpt". These are NOT "I support the right to
| bear arms." They are vey much "I am a strict and devoted
| Mormon and follow all the churches teachings", or "hard
| work is all that matters" or "no matter how hard you try,
| life is out to get you".
|
| If someone can't deduce things about a person from those
| sorts of first principle short sentences, that is a bit
| of a worry to me.
| maxbond wrote:
| My apologies to those for whom US politics isn't salient.
| Thank you for that feedback, I'll try to speak to a
| broader audience in the future.
|
| There's a world of difference between a statement giving
| you a clue about someone's worldview and assuming you
| understand it's entirety. In not saying you shouldn't
| infer anything from anything, I'm saying you should be
| honest with yourself about what is knowledge and what is
| supposition.
|
| Knowledge is justified, true belief. I can come to
| believe something as strongly as I may from scant
| information, and that thing could be true - and it still
| wouldn't have been justified. Alternatively, you could
| take those reactions and interpret them as untested
| hypothesis, and test them by asking followup questions.
|
| I don't agree that this statement represents a broad
| assertion that life is out to get you, as much as that
| the author has made a decision about how to allocate
| their efforts because they observe rapidly diminishing
| returns in certain areas. I don't have a fatalistic
| attitude towards life broadly, but there are aspects of
| my life that are treadmills which I try not to step on
| to.
| jimbokun wrote:
| Yes! I feel like a good fraction of the content on Reddit
| and Twitter are people extrapolating on the world view
| and psychology of other people on the platform, and
| comparatively little on the actual content of what was
| said.
| le-mark wrote:
| The Principal of Charity is a helpful distillation of this
| concept imo.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity
| mejutoco wrote:
| I thought the quote was from John Steinbeck
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/328134-john-steinbeck-once-...
| xianshou wrote:
| Good catch, thanks
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Note that this isn 't merely a statement that the world is
| unfair, but that it's unfair and any effort you make to deal
| with it will end in frustration._
|
| You got it backwards. The post specifically encourages the
| person to take action.
|
| What they describe in that part is what happens when you're
| caught in that kind of work treadmill. In that case, anything
| you do within the context of the treadmill isn't going to make
| any difference. You need to escape/reframe the context.
| pretendscholar wrote:
| Lol what would they even use to measure a million of a currency
| in De Tocquevilles time?
| tiedieconderoga wrote:
| You don't want to know.
|
| The quote is more commonly attributed to John Steinbeck, who
| also wrote a (somewhat embellished) memoir / #vanlife
| travelogue in 1962, called "Travels With Charley in Search of
| America".
| navane wrote:
| It helps that inflation was very little and very uncommon at
| the time. Pikkety opens his book with a story from late 18th
| century, and if I remember correctly, he did look into this
| and found that for a centuries currencies hardly de-valuated.
|
| I asked our all knowing friend to hash up the story for me,
| 'cause he remembers it better than I did:
|
| Question:
|
| Do you remember pikkety's book "capital in the 21st century",
| in which he opens with a story about people in french
| contemplating the best way to get rich. He also has a tangent
| about how money barely de-evaluated. Could you repeat that to
| me?
|
| Answer:
|
| Yes, I can certainly help you with that. In his book "Capital
| in the Twenty-First Century," Thomas Piketty opens with a
| story about a dinner party in France in the early 21st
| century, where the guests were discussing the best ways to
| get rich. Piketty uses this story to introduce the central
| theme of his book, which is the study of wealth and income
| inequality over time.
|
| In the book, Piketty also discusses the phenomenon of barely
| devalued money. He argues that in the post-World War II
| period, Western economies experienced a period of high
| economic growth, which allowed for the accumulation of
| significant amounts of capital. However, in the decades that
| followed, growth rates began to slow down, which meant that
| the returns on capital also began to decline.
|
| Piketty notes that during this period, the value of money
| barely devalued, which had the effect of increasing the
| relative value of capital. This, in turn, contributed to
| rising income and wealth inequality, as those who owned
| capital were able to accumulate more wealth at the expense of
| those who did not.
|
| Overall, Piketty's book is a comprehensive analysis of the
| history of wealth and income inequality and its impact on
| society.
| coldtea wrote:
| They could trivially use scales. Or volume if we're talking
| about gold. And several other things.
| noveltyaccount wrote:
| The phrase that stuck with me from that book: tomorrow in not
| guaranteed.
|
| I'm in my forties and have watched a few friends die slowly from
| cancer, and others die suddenly in car crashes.
|
| During COVID, working from home in my dimly-lit basement during
| perpetual grey days, doing my bureaucratic middle management job,
| I kept thinking: I can't die like this.
|
| My wife and I both quit our jobs and are on a sabbatical. It's
| glorious. Every day is sunny.
|
| Now I'm mid deep contemplation about my next job and how I can
| find something that motivates me and fills me with happiness even
| if it's for less money.
|
| Tomorrow is not guaranteed. Don't forget to act on that,
| everyone.
| xgbi wrote:
| Candid question: how do you finance your sabbatical ?
|
| I feel like a lot of people (I'm in there) are dreaming for
| exactly what your are living right now, but won't EVER be in
| the position to do it.
|
| I am 36 with about 14 years of software engineering, and I need
| LOTS_OF_MONEY per month just to finance my mortgage, the school
| of my children and the basic living expenses that rose about
| 50% in the last year due to energy and inflation. If my wife
| and I quit for 3 month, we are out of our saved money and will
| be losing the house.
| user8501 wrote:
| Not OP, but I'll tell you how my wife and I were able to take
| a year long sabbatical. I had some stock options for the
| company I worked for, which had gone public during my
| employment, and buying and selling it all provided enough to
| live very comfortably off of for about a year for the two of
| us.
| carlivar wrote:
| The key part seems to be not having kids. For me, I feel
| like I need to keep pushing at least until they are
| launched off to college.
| noveltyaccount wrote:
| Mostly luck* that my wife and I worked for a company that
| compensated largely in stock, and we worked there (and both
| got promoted) during a period of strong stock performance.
|
| We also planned our expenses around one base salary. So about
| 1/4 of gross income covered mortgage, child care (one kid),
| etc. We live way beneath our means. The rest (after taxes)
| went into index funds and a few lucky investments.
|
| We're at the "FU money" stage of wealth, and we'll go back to
| work to ensure we get to "very comfortably retired" stage.
|
| *I'd like to take credit for being so brilliant as to land
| the job at said company, and maybe I should take some credit
| for that, but honestly it's mostly good luck.
| noveltyaccount wrote:
| One more comment, since there's a sibling comment about not
| having kids. I live in a US state with a pre-paid college
| tuition plan, and it's pre-paid for four years of tuition
| for my one kid. I know there's more to college expenses
| than just tuition, but it gives me peace of mind that at
| least that is taken care of. My kid will go to public
| schools until then.
|
| Now if only I had universal health care!
| Claude_Shannon wrote:
| While I get the sentiment behind this, I feel in reality it's
| more insidious.
|
| It teaches you to be content with mediocrity, with failure. It
| will make you lazy and there will be others who won't fall into
| the trap.
| frollo wrote:
| What's wrong with mediocrity and laziness? Once you do enough
| to put a roof over your head and food on your table there's
| exactly zero reason to do more.
| ThrowawayR2 wrote:
| Bingo. Nobody who ever won a Nobel Prize, competed in the
| Olympics, or, in Joseph's Heller's case, wrote several novels
| that each took years to complete ever got up in the morning and
| said "I've done enough."
|
| Chasing money might be dumb but chasing excellence in your own
| personal goals might be the only meaning to life that there is
| or ever will be.
| sophiabits wrote:
| I agree. None of those people you've mentioned would
| recognize the concept of "work-life balance" at all. If you
| want to be exceptional at something then there's no
| substitute for putting more effort in.
|
| In fact, if you look at Google books ngram viewer [1] or
| Google search trends [2] you'll find the term is a very
| modern one.
|
| I think there are lots of ways to live a fulfilling life.
| Relaxing and not worrying about being exceptional is one of
| them, but it feels to me like there's a trend towards
| demonizing hard work (whether at $dayjob or in personal
| pursuits) which doesn't seem healthy.
|
| [1] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=work-
| life+bala... [2] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?dat
| e=all&q=work%20l...
| chuankl wrote:
| > Bingo. Nobody who ever won a Nobel Prize, competed in the
| Olympics, or, in Joseph's Heller's case, wrote several novels
| that each took years to complete ever got up in the morning
| and said "I've done enough."
|
| I am sure that is true. That said, whether such a person
| lives a satisfying life depends on the motivation behind such
| a drive.
|
| Do you pursue your research, your sports training, and your
| writing because of your love of the process and the activity
| itself? If so, you are doing great.
|
| Do you pursue your research, your sports training, and your
| writing because you are "climbing the ladder" toward a Nobel
| Prize, an Olympic medal, or the status of a famous writer? If
| so, you are probably going to have a bad time.
|
| The message I took from the book is not "don't excel" or
| "don't put your heart into things". Rather it is that
| excelling at something and putting your heart into something
| should be a conscious decision on your part, instead of a
| default response (e.g., mindlessly climbing the corporate
| ladder) because that is what everyone seems to be doing.
| hammock wrote:
| There is an arc to life. Life has phases. There are phases
| where building productivity makes the most sense, as results
| have time, runway to compound. Then there are later phases
| where priorities shift
| marniewebb wrote:
| I get this worry. I didn't read it this way though. I read it
| as being more about being conscious in choosing how to spend
| you time and not assuming that productivity leads to open
| amounts of person or quality time.
|
| I am lucky; I love the work I do and there is an overlap with
| what I do as a "hobby." The place I find myself in this trap is
| that often the places I am most "productive" are not the places
| I can do the highest value work, which tends to be slower and
| harder.
| Claude_Shannon wrote:
| I reread what I wrote and I spoke to rashly; I apologise for
| that, especially the latest fragment.
|
| But still I can't shake that feeling that perhaps what this
| does is just teaching yourself to be content with mediocrity
| and not in the good sense.
| 8note wrote:
| Optimizing yourself into answering emails instead of
| building stuff _is_ pigeonholing yourself into mediocrity.
|
| Being more productive does not necessarily make you better
| at things, and the article really argues that increasing
| your productivity on the wrong things negatively impacts
| your productivity on the right things.
| coxomb wrote:
| > In an ideal world, such efficient folks like yourself would
| invest a few hours per day working hard, but then spend the rest
| of the day in a lazy glory
|
| I detest laziness. There's only so much 'Netflix and Chill' a
| person can do, and after lazing around, I actually feel drained,
| rather than energized. You would think that laziness gives you
| energy, but it saps it instead. I guess this is because we're all
| human in the end, wired to be productive and working on at least
| one problem.
| StrawWoman wrote:
| YES. I experience the same depletion of energy during "rest".
| In fact, lots of down time without productivity (doesn't have
| to be work!) leads me to depression. Going back to school and
| taking a single class has made me feel productive and filled me
| with pride.. with thought it's not too impressive. Watching
| Netflix for hours, or browsing my phone, leads me to a bad
| outlook of myself and the world.
| EngManagerIsMe wrote:
| I think the author and you might have different understandings
| of "lazy". If I pursue a hobby for an afternoon with no
| financial upside (say, building model kits or painting) I might
| consider that a "lazy Sunday".
|
| I was productive, insofar as I pursued an interest, but I was
| not productive in the "producing salable work".
|
| I think there's a universe where lazy can mean different things
| for different people. For some that's lying on the couch,
| others might read or write or pursue art and music.
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| That I would definitely not call a lazy Sunday...
| happytiger wrote:
| You can't buy a fishing boat with the proceeds of a fishing pole
| anymore, however.
| Aunche wrote:
| I think the internet likes to treat basic human instinct as
| something profound. At least in the western world, I suspect that
| at most 1% of people actually over-optimize on productivity. This
| is different from the 9% of people who try too hard _for their
| employer_ , which is often it's own form of laziness of sticking
| with what you're comfortable with.
| raarts wrote:
| All my life I've liked working, learning, doing things, getting
| stuff done. I really like to make myself useful. I'm also the
| proverbial guy who, if left in the woods with an axe, will just
| start chopping trees and build something.
|
| Efficiency is good for me. I can do more.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| > The message seems old. The entire self-help industry revolves
| around saying variations of it. Stay in the present. Enjoy the
| moment. Seize the day.
|
| Plenty of old books too:
|
| Art of War - Choose the right battles to fight.
|
| Meditations - Live in the present moment and focus on what you
| can control.
|
| Tao Te Ching - Live in harmony with the natural world.
|
| The Bhagavad Gita - Find meaning in your actions even in the face
| of uncertainty.
|
| The Bible - Make the most of your time on earth.
|
| > Time is a series of nows. In that sense, the future never
| arrives.
|
| It's a good perspective. Especially if you make the most of the
| present each day. But if you have nothing to look forward to, how
| can you really make the most of each day? That's the basic
| argument here.
|
| Many philosophers believed you need to have a strong vision to
| make the most of your life. That can be found through one's
| acceptance of
| mortality/finitude/purpose/morals/desires/suffering/etc.
| all2 wrote:
| Your summary of the Bible is off base. If you're summarizing
| the book of Ecclesiastes, you're _almost_ there. Solomon
| provides a succinct description of the point of the book.
|
| Ecc 8:15 _15So I commended pleasure, for there is nothing good
| for a man under the sun except to eat and to drink and to be
| merry, and this will stand by him in his fntoils throughout the
| days of his life which God has given him under the sun._
|
| But also
|
| Ecc 11:8-9 _8Indeed, if a man should live many years, let him
| rejoice in them all, and let him remember the days of darkness,
| for they will be many. Everything that is to come will be
| futility. 9PRejoice, young man, during your childhood, and let
| your heart be pleasant during the days of young manhood. And
| follow the fnimpulses of your heart and the fndesires of your
| eyes. Yet know that God will bring you to judgment for all
| these things._
|
| As for the Bible, I'll direct you to the late theologian Chuck
| Missler.
| phkahler wrote:
| >> Many philosophers believed you need to have a strong vision
| to make the most of your life.
|
| I'd say it's not to make the _most_ of your life, but to make
| _something_ of it. Having goals or purpose can be separate from
| the competition for "most". I also find that goals or
| principles help to make decisions when a course is not clear.
| Like a tie breaker.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| There's nuance for sure.
|
| Most - Maximize your personal fulfillment and happiness.
|
| Something - Maximize your external achievements and
| recognition by others.
|
| I personally don't care to make "something" out of my life. I
| want to make the "most" of it.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| The article (and maybe the book) has a nice message, I guess,
| but... this is advice for people whose fundamental economic needs
| are secure and already taken care of.
|
| The _vast majority_ of people on the planet are _forced_ to be
| "productive" for most of the day so they can just have a few
| short moments at the end of the day or on a weekend to be _" at
| peace with and bask at merely existing"_. Because if they didn't
| the alternative would be starvation of themselves or their loved
| ones.
|
| This article is all a very "bourgeois" perspective. There are
| many things us middle class people could do to cut complexity and
| simplify and live in the moment. But the origin of "the hustle"
| is frankly just the material reality of every day existence.
|
| It shouldn't really be a surprise that after people get past the
| brute force problems of not-starving, they run around pushing
| with the same productive drive elsewhere in their lives and
| producing needless complexity because it's just part of the
| fundamental drive that stops you from starving in the first
| place.
|
| Also once you have kids, "striving for a future that never
| arrives" is frankly just part of your fundamental being. You will
| (hopefully) die before your kids or grandkids die. The moment you
| hold that child in your arms for the first time.. a huge part of
| you willingly and with deep love begins sacrificing a huge part
| of your present for a future you will never see.
|
| I love skiing -- among other activities -- because it puts me in
| this mental space described in this article. But I also see that
| pursuit of this comes with its own problematic aspects. It is
| actually super easy to get caught up in the "live the moment",
| and lose grasp of the obligations that we have to those around
| us, or to responsibilities that actually bring long-term
| satisfaction.
|
| I actually think our society has far more of a problem with
| people pursuing self-satisfying personal fulfillment (at the
| expense of social responsibility) than it does with people being
| overproductive.
| fisf wrote:
| This. The article alludes to Buddhism, when it comes to living
| in the moment. But it totally ignored the trap of hedonistic
| pleasure seeking that goes along with it.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I'm reminded of Joseph Heller's quote about having More:
|
| https://narendragoidani.medium.com/but-i-have-something-he-w...
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Funny "enough", that quote inspired me to write a book called
| "Enough." as a double meaning for being fed up with the world
| and also being satisfied with what you have.
|
| I read this story in Jack Bogle's book called "Enough". I had
| no idea where I came across these other words until now, but I
| did use them as a intro page in my book because they were so
| fitting at the time:
|
| Enough -- What an eloquent word.
|
| Enough -- What a potent word.
|
| Enough -- An underused word, maybe.
|
| Thanks for sharing.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| You're welcome. I'd forgotten where I heard it, too, but
| fortunately, you can just type a quote into DDG (or Google)
| and the top answers usually have the source.
| saulpw wrote:
| Are you familiar with the Swedish word/concept "lagom"?
| thenerdhead wrote:
| I had not. I wish I did when I was writing this book as it
| is a great word.
|
| I have heard of "moderation" (stoicism), "goldilocks"
| (fairy tales), balancing yin-yang (daoism/confucianism),
| middle way (buddhism), golden mean (aristotle), etc.
|
| I've heard of wabi-sabi recently which seems like a similar
| idea in Japan.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I was going to ask, but I do now:
|
| https://utopia.org/guide/lagom/
| rustybelt wrote:
| I really do like this story, but there is also a part of me
| that reacts by thinking "Easy for world-famous novelists Joseph
| Heller and Kurt Vonnegut to chuckle about they have talent,
| notoriety, and respect that no amount of money could buy and
| couldn't have been achieved by chasing wealth. For the rest of
| us toiling away in the rat race, hedge fund billions sound
| pretty great!"
| AlbertCory wrote:
| You missed the point: it's enough _money_.
|
| You could have enough, too. Anyone can.
| tamsaraas wrote:
| most if not all issues related to "productivity" related to burn-
| out & depression. Period.
| goodpoint wrote:
| And guess what creates burnout and depression? The culture of
| hyperproductivity and hustle. Surprise.
| convolvatron wrote:
| for me burnout and depression stems from not having anything
| useful to do because of lack of an appropriate work context.
| black_13 wrote:
| [dead]
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