[HN Gopher] Framework announces AMD, new Intel gen, 16" laptop a...
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Framework announces AMD, new Intel gen, 16" laptop and more
Author : pimterry
Score : 616 points
Date : 2023-03-23 16:56 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (frame.work)
(TXT) w3m dump (frame.work)
| perihelions wrote:
| How's the keyboard on Frameworks? (Subjectively)
| SSilver2k2 wrote:
| I like it. Been running one for 6 months now and it's been
| great.
| Macha wrote:
| I like it better than the macbook keyboard due to the higher
| key travel. There's a couple of oddities (the enter and # key
| for iso keyboards or enter and \ key for americans share the
| same cut out to reduce the number of case skus), and I miss the
| dedicated home/end/pgup/pgdown keys my previous dell had, but
| nothing deal breaking.
| pcardoso wrote:
| Nice, but sadly the shipping options still don't include my
| country (PT). I wonder why, since they ship to some other EU
| countries.
| dxxvi wrote:
| To Framework: please cooperate with Costco/Sam's Club to sell
| your laptops there. Then I'll have a chance to try it.
| galkk wrote:
| How much does it weight? I don't see it on the announcement page.
|
| This year I got 16" thinkpad P4, and suprised to see how much
| more comfortable it is for me than my 15" Extreme X1, especially
| given that it weights about the same (1.86kg)
| jiripospisil wrote:
| > Coming later in 2023: Belgium, Taiwan, Italy, Spain
|
| Does anybody know why they do this country by country roll out?
| I'd be perfectly happy to order a US layout laptop but they don't
| allow me to place an order.
| fuzzbazz wrote:
| Maybe they'd have a lot of extra returns if people from these
| countries didn't pay attention and bought a laptop expecting
| the usual keyboard layout for their languages.
| marci wrote:
| I would guess figuring out payment, shipping, returns, refunds,
| warranty...
| OJFord wrote:
| ..., taxes, consumer protection laws, ...
|
| It's probably harder being a US company selling into each EU
| country than it is for an EU-based company to sell to the
| rest of the EU and also the US, too?
|
| The alternative would be not selling directly to consumer,
| using some intermediary like Amazon or whatever.
| cristiioan wrote:
| I don't think is that harder. Also, my Framework(bought in
| Austria and than shipped it to Romania - still in EU) was
| actually sold by a company registered in Germany.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| Or be a reselling manufacturer like Clevo, and let local
| companies deal with that stiff.
| nrp wrote:
| We wrote a blog post a couple of years ago about what goes into
| launching into new countries: https://frame.work/blog/scaling-
| up-infrastructure
| uxcolumbo wrote:
| Seems to be down or slow.
|
| Do we have an option to add a keyboard with a Trackpoint?
| ncallaway wrote:
| I don't think so (not mentioned during the talk, so probably
| not), but the input system is being opened up (with both
| hardware specs and some their keyboard software released), so
| it should be possible for a third party to do that.
| davidy123 wrote:
| I would probably switch after decades of thinkpads (and one Mac
| I just didn't like) if they offered a model with AMD chip, a
| good keyboard, Trackpoint, and OLED display.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| OLED is a tall order, unless there happens to be an existing
| (tablet?) display thats just the right size for their frames.
| O_H_E wrote:
| Yeah website is down. He never mentioned a trackpoint
| unfortunately.
|
| But I guess theoretically someone could design one (+deg#deg)+
| ++ they are releasing hardware and software interface docs on
| github.
| humanistbot wrote:
| IBM's trackpoint patent expired in 2017. I have no idea why
| there hasn't been a custom keyboard with a trackpoint out yet.
| Seems like that would be the first thing hacker-types would
| add.
| benatkin wrote:
| I haven't seen anything interesting from this company yet. Just
| internal dongles.
| samizdis wrote:
| Site still seems to be overloaded, but there's a decent piece in
| Ars:
|
| _Framework gives its modular laptops 13th-gen Intel CPUs and
| (finally) an AMD option_
|
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/03/framework-gives-its-...
| ar_lan wrote:
| Whoa. AMD has been a big, big ask for a long time. This is very
| welcome.
| cultofmetatron wrote:
| same, I'm going to be buying a new laptop in a few months. was
| gonna get the system76 pangolin but this just changed all my
| plans
| WorldPeas wrote:
| I can't wait for them to announce an arm-based cpu board, it's
| only a matter of time(I keep telling myself)
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| From Qualcomm?
|
| ARM is great in theory, but I don't see any SoC on the horizon
| that I would really crave. This includes Apple, as I am either
| stuck with OSX or (at best) have most of the interesting bits
| of the SoC nonfunctional in linux or Windows.
| samtheDamned wrote:
| I've been wishing for something similar, I think it's a great
| opportunity for desktop-style arm computing to shine.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| Already a thing?
|
| And is hardware the limiting thing here?
|
| Not the terrible arm OSes?
|
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/02/lenovo-announces-
| the...
| samtheDamned wrote:
| I hadn't heard about the ARM Thinkpad, that's very
| interesting. For me the reason ARM on the Framework is an
| exciting possibility is that you can switch out the
| mainboard with the processor. The X13s is $1,300 which is
| quite the investment into such an early platform. With a
| framework laptop, you could have an ARM mainboard, but with
| the ability to switch it out with an x86-64 mainboard
| without having to invest in a whole new laptop. It could
| also go the other way, having a laptop on hand and wanting
| to dive into ARM, you would just have to buy an ARM
| mainboard instead of an entire laptop.
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| Arm on linux works pretty well.
| starkparker wrote:
| And Framework already ships a 13" model and parts with
| Chromebook certification, which has great ARM support.
| sampa wrote:
| matte display, ryzen...
|
| now give me a keyboard with normal-sized arrow keys, and I will
| order one
| metalforever wrote:
| I realize this is a really fringe interest, but I want them to
| make a RISC laptop eventually, with open source firmware and an
| open source graphics stack.
| pmlnr wrote:
| WHY THE HALF SIZE ARROWS?! FFS, it's a 16" machine, there so much
| space.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| Oh there we go, modular GPU add in boards. Heyoooo!
|
| And they support other stuff!
|
| I wish the framework site was up, as I want to see what this
| specification looks like. If you look inside an Asus Zephyrus or
| whatever, the cooling setup needed to support such a thing in a
| thin laptop is _mad_. The 13 ", for instance, has a pancake sized
| 2D headspreader + liquid metal TIM, which very much goes against
| repairability. The 16" is a wall of heatpipes. I wonder how
| framework is addressing this.
|
| EDIT: specification is here, but down at this moment:
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay
| Tade0 wrote:
| I repasted and changed the fans in my Zephyrus (turns out
| mattress pumps and fans don't mix) and fortunately the whole
| heatsink assembly comes off in more or less one go.
|
| It is bulky though. Moreover, this bulk is not enough to keep
| the keyboard from getting really hot under load.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| The newer ones are much trickier because of the liquid metal
| TIM. You want to avoid lifting it off the CPU/GPU if you can.
| nrp wrote:
| The Expansion Bay interface repository is now up (as well as
| the Framework website).
| LoganDark wrote:
| I emailed Framework back in 2021 about plans to make a larger
| laptop / one with a GPU and they said they weren't going to.
| Funny how that works.
| KeepingItToasty wrote:
| Quick summary for those couldn't watch the livestream/load the
| website.
|
| - New Framework laptops are available using Intel 13th Gen and
| AMD 7040 series.
|
| - New 61Wh battery, new matte display option & a Cooler Master
| mainboard case for $39.
|
| - New 16 inch Framework laptop. Allows you to have a number pad
| or not, up to you and customizable. If I understood the
| livestream correctly, there are upgradable dedicated GPUs that
| connect to the 16 inch laptop.
| whitehexagon wrote:
| Matte display yay! I missed that a lot on the MBP. Seems like
| they still want to bundle a windows license, I never understand
| this, do MS pay OEMs to do this?
| genocidicbunny wrote:
| If you pick the DIY option, you can omit the Windows license.
| You'll have to install Linux yourself, but that doesn't seem
| like a terribly difficult task for someone already going with
| the DIY option.
|
| I'm guessing they don't want to officially support any
| specific distro, and offering support for multiple distros is
| probably a bit outside their wheelhouse at the moment. [e:
| this is perhaps not the case]
| starkparker wrote:
| > I'm guessing they don't want to officially support any
| specific distro
|
| https://frame.work/linux
|
| > Officially supported
|
| > Fedora 37
|
| > Ubuntu 22.04 LTS
| genocidicbunny wrote:
| Perhaps it's not updated yet, but I don't see AMD in that
| list.
| starkparker wrote:
| Sorry, I missed where it was specifically about the AMD
| model. The 13th-gen Intel got added to the list between
| me posting and you posting, so who knows.
| miloignis wrote:
| In the blog post they indicate that they will be
| supported:
|
| https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-13-with-13th-
| gen-in...
|
| _Optimized for Linux
|
| We continue to focus on solid Linux support, and we're
| happy to share that Fedora 38 and Ubuntu 22.04 will work
| fantastically out of the box for both the 13th Gen
| Intel(r) Core(tm) and AMD Ryzen(tm) 7040 Series models.
| We have thorough setup and troubleshooting guides and
| will continue to provide official support for these two
| distributions. Manjaro XFCE 22.0 and Linux Mint 21.1 are
| also working great, and we're detailing the documentation
| for those as well. You can check compatibility with
| popular distros as we continue to test them on our Linux
| page or in the Framework Community._
| ncallaway wrote:
| Well... That was the last hurdle I waiting for before
| pre-ordering the AMD mainboard as an upgrade to my
| current intel 11th gen laptop.
| genocidicbunny wrote:
| Ah that is very good to hear. Windows 11 is looking non-
| viable more and more these days, and I'm due for a
| hardware refresh too.
|
| I might find myself ordering one of these.
| deaddodo wrote:
| I run Fedora 37 on my AMD Ryzen 6800 Zephyrus G14 just
| fine. Both the GPU and CPU are fully supported, along
| with AMD's chipset.
| nwah1 wrote:
| More likely, the answer is that a lot of Windows users want a
| hassle-free experience. DIY edition of this would have no
| Windows tax, if you are a linux user.
| schmorptron wrote:
| Not if you get the DIY afaik!
| nrp wrote:
| You can pick up the Framework Laptop DIY Edition with no OS
| or OS license included, and bring whichever distro you want.
| snerbles wrote:
| I passed the Windows license through to a VM on mine. Not
| that I do much with it, but it does activate.
| ncallaway wrote:
| Ooh, how do you do that? I got a windows one, since I
| figured I may dual boot it, but I never do. A VM would be a
| good use of that license.
| vetinari wrote:
| Depends how your Windows was licensed; if you had OEM
| license with license key that you had to type in (this is
| usually when Windows license is an option), or if the key
| was embedded in BIOS (when Windows license is provided
| and it is not an option).
|
| In the second case, you have to pass through SLIC and
| MSDM ACPI tables from host to guest. For example, like
| this: https://gist.github.com/Informatic/49bd034d43e054bd
| 1d8d4fec3...
| ncallaway wrote:
| Brilliant, thanks!
| snerbles wrote:
| Here's a good start: https://community.frame.work/t/what-
| is-the-best-way-to-dual-...
|
| See also https://gist.github.com/Informatic/49bd034d43e05
| 4bd1d8d4fec3...
| ncallaway wrote:
| Brilliant, thanks!
| brightball wrote:
| The 16 seems like the version that will open the door for me.
| outworlder wrote:
| > If I understood the livestream correctly, there are
| upgradable dedicated GPUs that connect to the 16 inch laptop.
|
| They are checking all my boxes now. Outstanding.
| znpy wrote:
| Does it mean I can finally get a high end laptop without a
| discrete gpu?
| nrp wrote:
| Yep! The Graphics Module is optional.
| wmf wrote:
| Have you seen LG Gram?
| znpy wrote:
| it's not a high-end laptop really. it's more of an "all in"
| on being light.
| slaw wrote:
| LG Gram is a multipurpose laptop. You can use it's screen
| also as a mirror and keyboard has so interesting design you
| can play twister game with your fingers whether you like it
| or not.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| Not really.
|
| The 7040 series is good, but its not dGPU class like an M1/M2
| Max. I think AMD has been scared to make one because OEMs
| won't want it.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Not OP, but in my case, I'd love an HS part without a dGPU.
| I'm typing this on a 5650U and its integrated GPU is
| overkill for what I do. Hell, until a year ago, I used to
| daily drive an i5-6500 with an HD530 with a 4k display and
| I never felt limited by the GPU.
|
| But I _do_ use the CPU from time to time, so a beefier part
| would be useful. I would rather not pay for a dGPU which I
| 'd use _maybe_ 1% of the time, and which would cost more
| and weigh more and possibly be a PITA to manage under
| Linux.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| I dunno, as time goes on I am wanting to do more and more
| on the GPU. Last gen it was media processing and
| upscaling, now its running Stable Diffusion and other
| Generative AI.
|
| But what it sounds like you want is an E-core mad part
| from Intel. I always thought they should sell a 20-30
| core laptop part with only one or two big cores as a
| compilation monster.
| znpy wrote:
| i don't play videogames and i don't do ai/ml, video
| editing or whatever.
|
| i spend most of my time in firefox and in terminals. i do
| use virtual machines quite a lot to test stuff around, so
| high cores count and high memory would be a plus for me.
|
| but an nvidia gpu is a deal breaker for me. I just don't
| want it. I don't need it, i don't use it, it just makes
| the whole thing less usable. and it draws a lot power
| that i'd prefer using otherwise.
|
| the intel integrated gpu is not only sufficient for me, i
| actually WANT it. it just works under gnu/linux and i
| don't have to mess with drivers.
|
| I cannot stress enough how much i hate having to deal
| with proprietary drivers.
|
| and last time i played a videogame, it was openarena, and
| it ran beautifully on the intel hd 600 my work laptop had
| (dell latitude 7390, great little machine).
|
| edit: regarding amd gpus... i'm not sure. i've been told
| they work with open source drivers, but still it's a
| power usage i would happily avoid.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| I mean, in a laptop, you dont use the dGPU on battery
| unless its for compute, period. It should just be sitting
| there turned off (which indeed means you dont want it).
| But if its sucking any power, thats a bug.
|
| That being said, Firefox and Chromium use the integrated
| GPU more than you think, and they feel faster with a
| stronger IGP. Just try disabling some of the gpu
| acceleration and see how it feels.
| deaddodo wrote:
| That is not how GPU multiplexing works on Laptops. My
| dGPU most certainly works on battery, though I can
| directly disable it if I like (or use a power saving
| power plan).
| znpy wrote:
| > That being said, Firefox and Chromium use the
| integrated GPU more than you think, and they feel faster
| with a stronger IGP. Just try disabling some of the gpu
| acceleration and see how it feels.
|
| i have strongs doubts the doxygen webpages i spend time
| on will get any faster with an nvidia 3090.
| goosedragons wrote:
| The Radeon 680M/780M compete pretty well with base M1/M2
| GPUs. And there are going to be some 7040 series chips with
| them like the 7940HS. No, it's not a 16 core monster but I
| imagine Aya Neo will shove it in a handheld in like 5
| months.
| tristor wrote:
| Is one of the models of CPU available the 7840HS?
|
| This sounds fantastic, I very well may buy a Framework laptop
| later this week/weekend.
|
| EDIT: Their site came back up, after reading the blog post I
| pre-ordered the Ryzen 7 13" to be my new Linux laptop.
| KeepingItToasty wrote:
| We don't actually know what specific version of AMD CPU is
| available. Just that one option is Ryzen 5 and the other is
| Ryzen 7:
|
| "For the AMD Ryzen(tm) 7040 Series processors, we'll be
| sharing more detailed specifications as we get closer to
| shipment."
|
| Source: https://frame.work/gb/en/blog/framework-
| laptop-13-with-13th-...
| schmorptron wrote:
| The big question is whether the cooling system in the 13"
| would be able to handle the HS. Is there any data on Zen 4
| laptop chips that has tested the efficiency vs performance
| considerations on the U vs the HS series?
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| No, but you can look it up here when there are. There is
| no better notebook reviewer:
| https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-7-7840HS-
| Processor-B...
|
| On previous generations: the 4000 series starts to hit a
| relative performance wall at around 35W. The 5000 series
| clocked higher and hence gained more moving from 15 to 35
| and 35 to 45.
|
| Not sure about the 6000 series, but you can see for
| yourself: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-
| Ryzen-7-6800U-Processor-Be...
|
| Another point: you can throttle the 35W HS series to 15W,
| and get the laptop to run fanless or almost fanless since
| it is designed to cool a higher TDP.
| neogodless wrote:
| I think so? Of the 7040 APUs, that seems to be the only Ryzen
| 7 model announced so far.
|
| Shipping estimate is Q3.
| CameronNemo wrote:
| I think Zen4 U-series APUs are expected later this year.
| deaddodo wrote:
| They don't list the specific AMD Ryzen chips. This is the
| primary reason I refuse to preorder, I need to know exactly
| what I'm ordering before I do.
| [deleted]
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| It would be nice if we could get non-multiplexed edit keys in
| the unused space. That is the biggest failing of modern
| laptops. Massive horizontal real estate and they're packing
| keys in like it's 1995.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Previous framework was 3:2, not 16:9 so there isn't a
| ridiculous amount of width. But yes, a vertical column of
| dedicated keys is a decent compromise that doesn't shift the
| keyboard over much. I had that on an older luggable.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| You don't have to shift the keyboard over at all. That can
| stay centered and there's room for a 2x3 block of edit keys
| plus an inverted-T with full height up and down arrows. All
| it takes is willingness to be a leader instead of a
| follower copying one company's misguided minimalism-at-all-
| costs.
| cge wrote:
| Because of the screen ratio, there's simply no space to
| do that on a Framework 13, without reducing key spacing:
| there is almost exactly 1 cm of space between the last
| keys and the actual edge of the frame.
|
| On the Framework 16, I wouldn't be surprised if someone
| makes that: it looks like the design would accommodate a
| left/right-hand side narrow input module with the
| keyboard still centred.
| vanilla_nut wrote:
| The customization goes further than just yes/no to the number
| pad. Looks like a whole "Input Module system" that could open
| up opportunities for different keyboard designs (DVORAK,
| various locales, maybe different switches?). I love this idea,
| excited to see what folks do with it. Makes me think of Apple's
| Touchbar nonsense -- why force a number pad, or a second
| touchscreen on folks who don't want one? Such a good iteration
| on the Framework idea.
| MayeulC wrote:
| Yeah, I'd love an otrholinear module. I'm very sad that this
| is not offered on the 13 inch, I'd truly love to play around
| with that.
| BeefySwain wrote:
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/qmk_firmware
|
| If this is anything to go off of, then it seems like they are
| going to support embedding full QMK enabled input devices.
| Extremely exciting!
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| Very exciting indeed. Thank you for pointing this out.
| nmstoker wrote:
| Indeed! They just keep doing good things (and doing them
| well from what I read)
| JonathonW wrote:
| They're using QMK on their prototype keyboard and numpad
| input modules (which are RP2040-based internally).
|
| The interface for input modules to the rest of the computer
| is "just" USB 2.0, so you could put just about anything
| there that'll fit in one of the input module form factors.
| Although high resolution, high frame rate touchscreens are
| probably out because of bandwidth constraints (since it is
| only USB 2.0).
| nrp wrote:
| It's plausible to use something like a DisplayLink
| controller, or for lower resolution even a
| microcontroller with flexible high speed peripherals like
| an RP2040 with the PIO interface.
| [deleted]
| riedel wrote:
| Trackpoint with physical mouse buttons... Just let me keep
| dreaming.
| vanilla_nut wrote:
| Knowing Framework's community, it's only a matter of time
| before a trackpoint version with physical mouse buttons and
| no touchpad becomes available!
|
| I wonder if we'll see a Kickstarter for it soon...
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| The way the numpad is fully optional on the 16" is great. I get
| that numpads are non-optional for some but for my usage it's
| mostly a nuisance, which makes the non-optional numpads on a lot
| of laptops a near-dealbreaker.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| For me they were completely useless too but I've remapped mine
| to a 3x3 desktop switcher and some other hotkeys on KDE. Now I
| can't do without it, it's like having 9 computers in one <3
| Macha wrote:
| I'd love to buy one.
|
| But I already bought an Intel 12th gen framework and can't
| justify an upgrade (even the DIY option) yet.
| tvararu wrote:
| I'm a very happy Framework laptop daily user. I want to get so
| many upgrades now: AMD mainboard, 4kg hinge kit, New louder
| speakers, 61Wh battery, Blank ISO keyboard, WiFi 6E card.
|
| The only downside is that's so many components, instead of
| upgrading, I'll probably buy a whole new one and donate the old
| one to friends or family. :)
|
| Great work @nrp and team.
| grapesurgeon wrote:
| i really hope the battery is much better than the pathetic 3
| hours i get from my current one. as im writing this, ive used my
| laptop for around 3 hours, 20 minutes was to run a kvm and the
| rest is just a browser, and im at 18% remaining.
|
| i might have said before that i regret getting the framework, i
| might think about upgrading my mainboard and battery if it turns
| out to be working well. key word "maybe"...
| slaw wrote:
| That's why there will be AMD option.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| Now just need a good trackpoint and no trackpad and I'll finally
| have a replacement for this modified X230.
| humanistbot wrote:
| IBM's trackpoint patent expired in 2017, I have no idea why
| there hasn't been a custom keyboard with a trackpoint out yet.
| Seems like that would be the first thing hacker-types would
| add.
| snicker7 wrote:
| I wish Framework had more color options in their Marketplace (e.g
| gold, torquise, pink), especially considering how they advertise
| themselves as being modular / customizable.
| nrp wrote:
| We're adding more Bezel colors throughout the year. We have
| Transparent available now for pre-ordering. We've improved our
| manufacturing infrastructure for Bezels recently to make it
| much easier to create new colors than it was previously.
| o8o8o8o wrote:
| Wow that's the fastest I've ever seen a site go down. Site was
| vaporized as soon as the announcement was made.
|
| I'm still happy with my 11th gen framework. Anybody who's looking
| into upgrading please consider re-using your mainboard. They have
| 3D printing schematics you can use to turn it into a mini desktop
| PC!: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard
| Entinel wrote:
| As part of their announcements, they partnered with Cooler
| Master to turn that 3D printed case into a full product they
| will sell on their website.
| filmgirlcw wrote:
| I love this! I got a Framework laptop back in 2021 and it has
| been one of my favorite non-Mac laptops in years (decades?) and I
| love seeing the company evolve and grow! Definitely looking at
| upgrading to one of these for my non-M1 Max laptop needs.
| kelnos wrote:
| I bought a 12th-gen Intel Framework last summer when they first
| came out. Aside from some thermal throttling issues (that are
| actually kinda bad and common, and Framework support has been so
| far unable to address), and so-so battery life, I'm otherwise
| happy with it, after I got used to the screen's odd aspect ratio
| and made my peace with it being a physically larger machine
| because of that. (I'm assuming the driver for this was the need
| for a larger mainboard due to the expansion slots and connectors
| for RAM, WiFi, and storage.)
|
| A bit bummed that they're offering a matte display option only
| now; I don't see it offered in the marketplace, but I assume
| it'll get there eventually, and the glossy screen is $179, which
| isn't too expensive an 'upgrade', assuming the matte screen ends
| up being priced similarly. The higher-capacity battery will come
| in handy, though I'll probably wait until the existing battery
| gets a bit older.
|
| I'm not interested in a 16" laptop, but I really like the black
| keyboard area, though the two-tone black keyboard area with
| silver touchpad/wrist rest is kinda ugly. I wonder if Framework
| will eventually offer replacement input covers (for the 13") with
| different aesthetics. One thing I miss from my old Dell XPS13 is
| the soft-touch material on the input cover. One cool small detail
| on the 16" is they've dropped the built-in 3.5mm jack and added
| two more expansion card ports, with one of the options being a
| card with a 3.5mm jack. Really smart move there; satisfies both
| camps of people who want and don't want that jack.
|
| I think the thing that is most encouraging is that it does seem
| like they're trying to settle into a yearly cadence for new
| mainboard releases, tracking the latest chipsets from Intel (and
| hopefully now from AMD too). I was a little worried that they
| wouldn't be able to keep up, since they're still a small-ish
| company. Certainly not going to buy the 13th-gen or new Ryzen
| boards this year, but it's good to know that, assuming the
| company continues to be successful, I should be able to upgrade
| in a couple years.
| grecy wrote:
| > _thermal throttling issues (that are actually kinda bad and
| common, and Framework support has been so far unable to
| address), and so-so battery life, the screen 's odd aspect
| ratio, being a physically larger machine._
|
| That is a strange review to conclude "I'm otherwise happy with
| it"
| LoganDark wrote:
| I love this laptop's keyboard layout, finally! This might be my
| next laptop if there's ever an option to have one without E-cores
| [deleted]
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| I think the Cooler Master case for your "old" mainboard is a
| pretty neat idea. In that you can upgrade your mainboard, take
| the old one and put it into the case to make a "mini" PC out of
| it. That is pretty awesome.
| starkparker wrote:
| There was already an official 3D-printable case, and Framework
| even links to it from the CoolerMaster case's product page.
| Still good to finally have a straightforward option for the
| printerless.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| I was aware of the The 3D printed case, it is nice but it is
| a challenging print. I think partnering with Cooler Master
| will get more Framework mainboards re-used than would
| otherwise be. I expect when you order a new mainboard it will
| be an option for checkout :-) We'll see.
| starkparker wrote:
| > . I expect when you order a new mainboard it will be an
| option for checkout
|
| It's not yet, but soon, hopefully.
| xkcd-sucks wrote:
| Is S3 suspend to memory supported?
| JohnTHaller wrote:
| For folks who'd rather read than watch, Tom's Hardware has a
| summary: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/framework-
| laptop-13-16-amd...
|
| tl;dr: A 16" laptop with modular dedicated graphics (PCIe x8
| either v4 or v5 with fans on the module), expansion bay cards
| (dual m.s SSDs), a new 'input system' with multiple keyboards in
| multiple languages and optional RGB lighting as well as support
| for numpads and secondary displays. Target launch is 'late 2023'.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| While I'm glad they are actually making a product for their
| actual niche...
|
| Personally, looking at the 16...it's just a 'You were supposed
| to be the chosen one.' gif.
|
| Damn near everything is proprietary, even if they were to open
| source it, they have basically created their own new standards
| for everything from the GPU to the new RGB modules that seem
| like insane distractions. Also those trackpad spacers are a
| solution but yikes that looks like trash.
|
| All I see is SKU overload and inventory problems all while they
| are distracted with solving RGB for some wild reason.
| alpsne wrote:
| > they have basically created their own new standards for
| everything from the GPU to the new RGB modules that seem like
| insane distractions
|
| Reminded me of https://xkcd.com/927/
| ncallaway wrote:
| How many things have they created standards for that already
| have open standards in common use in the laptop space?
|
| If we're going from 2 open standards to 3 that seems
| unnecessary. If we're going from 0 open standards to 1 that
| seems like a huge step forward.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| MXM is an 'open-ish' standard that others build for. My
| real weird view is that they have really went a different
| direction and their GPU upgrade has a whole rear deck you
| install and all that rather than building it into the
| product. That deck will only ever work with the Framework
| 16.
|
| Like, this isn't a standard at all, it's just open for
| Framework to gain from. It reminds me of Google's Project
| Ara but for the wrong reasons.
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/23/23652967/framework-
| laptop...
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| > MXM is an 'open-ish' standard that others build for
|
| NVidia hasn't made MXM compatible GPUs for at least 5
| years.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| Yes but the standard still exists. There are PCIe 4.0
| GPUs out there in MXM format. It is just PCIe.
| CarVac wrote:
| MXM is alright for upgrading, but it's not modular the
| way this aims to be.
|
| This includes cooling, so a small GPU could have smaller
| heatsinks and a beefy GPU could have huge heatsinks.
|
| And if you don't want the GPU and the associated power
| draw plus the size and weight of the heatsinks, you can
| swap it for another module if you don't want to game on
| the go.
|
| As they said in their presentation, it's not just for
| GPUs. You could have a supplemental battery. They will
| offer a storage expansion that gives you more M.2 slots.
| Hypothetically you could even just make a module that
| lets you fit a desktop GPU on the back, if you provided
| external power.
| ur-whale wrote:
| Noice.
|
| First time they've put a product out that matches my requirement:
| large screen, decent GPU, AMD CPU.
|
| But argh ... no numpad, so no can use Blender on it :(
|
| [EDIT]: aha, but I read:
|
| Input Module system
|
| When starting the design of a larger screen laptop, one of the
| key questions was: Numpad, or no numpad? After performing some
| market research, we found out there is almost exactly a 50/50
| split between people who love and need numpads and people who
| hate them. We used this as an opportunity to not only let you
| pick your preference there, but also completely customize the
| input experience.
|
| Very nice
| chromakode wrote:
| I love how this launch included new reuse paths for old
| components, including a new mainboard case [1] and battery /
| screen case designs. If Framework maintains mechanical
| compatibility between generations, things are going to get really
| interesting.
|
| [1] https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case
| O_H_E wrote:
| salvaging old laptop battery as a power bank made me actually
| lol in real life.
| nrp wrote:
| It makes total sense! A half worn out battery may no longer
| be useful to you inside of your laptop, but can still be
| useful as an external power bank.
| bigredhdl wrote:
| Came here to say the same thing. Having my old laptop board be
| a NUC for another screen somewhere seems like a good idea.
| starkparker wrote:
| Already preordered the 13" AMD board knowing that my old
| mainboard is going straight into my arcade cabinet as soon as
| it's out of the laptop.
| schmorptron wrote:
| Did you DIY that arcade cabinet? If so, know of any good
| guides / did you use one when building it?
| starkparker wrote:
| Didn't use a guide, it's a bog-standard Arcade1Up
| conversion. A couple years ago I looked up a display
| driver board providing an HDMI input to the stock display
| and bought a $50 Amazon-sourced EG STARTS-brand cheapo
| kit of sticks and buttons with USB encoders. They were
| drop-in replacements for the stock deck's buttons and
| sticks. The emulator driver right now is just a 6th-gen
| i5 HP EliteDesk Mini fleet-salvaged workstation booting
| into RetroArch.
|
| These days you can go even easier with fully installed
| plug-and-play Arcade1Up control panel replacements that
| are literally drop-in - MDF, sticks, buttons, encoders,
| and audio/display driver card are all built in. You just
| pull the stock control deck out, drop the $150 Intec deck
| in, and connect whatever PC/console/FPGA into the video
| in and USB controller outputs that it provides. You can
| build a cab around one out of plywood or just grab a
| random Arcade1Up on sale somewhere.
| bnprks wrote:
| I'm also intrigued by the business opportunities of providing
| more ways for fans to spend money than just buying a new laptop
| every 4 years. If I can upgrade to a new mainboard and turn my
| old one into a functional desktop, I'm much more likely to add
| in a $500 mainboard upgrade at the 2 year mark.
| chromakode wrote:
| This is exactly what I did when the 12th gen came out. My
| original mainboard is now running our home NAS and NVR.
| NoboruWataya wrote:
| 16" model is great news - personally I like larger laptops and
| numpads, and dislike working on 13". I bought a Dell last year.
| Naturally I hope it lasts a long time, but if I were to have a
| need to buy a laptop in the next year or so it would almost
| certainly be a Framework.
| the-grump wrote:
| Livestream recording: https://www.youtube.com/live/ccpsyRipHlk
| koito17 wrote:
| As petty as this may sound, I really don't like it when laptops
| arrange their modifier keys as Control-Fn-Super-Meta. My Macbook
| has the layout Fn-Control-Meta-Super, which makes Emacs very nice
| to use. Every time I use a "standard PC keyboard" or Windows
| laptop, I can barely use Emacs because it just feels
| uncomfortable having to stretch my pinky as far as possible just
| to hit a key.
|
| I know what some may be thinking, "just rebind the keys in
| software". But I also want the labels on my keys to not lie to
| me, and there is probably a risk of some software not respecting
| your custom keymap, too.
|
| _This_ is my biggest gripe with non-Apple laptops and one of a
| few reasons why I 'm stubbornly using an old Macbook.
| vhodges wrote:
| Which makes Apple wrong, my left pinky expects control there
| ;-p imo (even though I remap capslock to control).
|
| As for Emacs on Mac, I was forever closing the window instead
| of cutting since ALT and Command are in the wrong order (again
| for me). I now use an external keyboard which helps.
| koito17 wrote:
| Heh, I guess old habits die hard. I first began using Emacs
| on a Mac keyboard, so now I am too used to it.
|
| I guess my rant is more of a wish for Framework or some other
| manufacturer to offer this kind of layout, without needing a
| software solution like xmodmap. The moment Framework sells
| keyboards with modifier keys in the "correct" spot is the
| moment I'm ditching my Macbook.
| vhodges wrote:
| :-D There was someone working on firmware that could remap
| keys (let me see if I can find a link... Welp, it looks
| like it can be remapped bios today
|
| https://community.frame.work/t/framework-and-open-
| source/107...
|
| and the firmware is open source
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController)
|
| and https://community.frame.work/t/changed-my-keyboard-
| layout-in...
|
| I never did find the post I was thinking of (EDIT: Maybe
| this one: https://community.frame.work/t/a-qmk-
| configurable-keyboard/2...)
| samtheDamned wrote:
| Every time Framework is brought up, there's a chorus of people
| saying they won't buy until they release an AMD edition, and as
| one of them this is great to see.
|
| Edit: Also the input deck and the ability to attach an egpu as
| well as upgrade to a newer egpu in the future are huge. This is a
| fantastic leap forward for Framework.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| I'm one of the chorus. I actually preordered a TOTL Asus
| Zephyrus Duo about a month ago, and it came in last week. It's
| been a dream so far -- 16 real cores of AMD 7945HX, laptop
| 4090, hybrid graphics, two real screens! Main display is a
| quite color-accurate 16:10 miniled with 240hz freesync, lower
| display is a high-PPI IPS touch panel, dual raid-able M2 slots
| (I put in dual WD SN850Xs in raid0 and that's showing ~14.5GB/s
| reads and ~13Gb/s writes in CrystalDiskMark), decent sound and
| webcam, keyboard is at the bottom edge...the only downsides are
| the touchpad size is a bit strange (portrait orientation) and
| the click on it doesn't feel quite Macbook nice, no USB4, and
| the power brick is very brick-like, with a thick cable that
| doesn't flex very well. Cooling is excellent due to the intake
| fans under the second screen combined with the lower heat
| output of the AMD chip, allowing it to run maxed out without
| throttling...they did this right. I can't get Pop_OS to install
| yet, guessing it might need the AMD raid driver like Windows
| did, requires further investigation.
|
| Anyway, excited for a Framework version too! While I prefer AMD
| integrated graphics to Intel, NVidia dGPU would be even better,
| and even better still if it was upgradable. Are laptop GPUs
| still available on MXM cards?
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| Why even try to use the hardware raid? I can't imagine it
| actually performs any better than mdraid, and with mdraid the
| drives are as portable as plain drives. You could destroy the
| special laptop and stick the drives into usb enclosures and
| access the array again on any other machine.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Tell me you work in ops with out saying you work in ops.
| :-)
|
| Btw, this is excellent advice. Funny story, I have a
| FreeNAS device and the motherboard died and I thought "Oh
| my, I need to bring my ZFS volumes up on another machine,
| but I didn't have another machine with 6 SATA bays! I ended
| up having the drives all sitting out on the workbench
| connected a mainboard with 8 SATA ports so that I could
| create an archive of the data, and then got the mainboard
| fixed so I could re-assemble and re-use the FreeNAS but
| still it alerted me to the fact that I really needed a 6-8
| drive cabinet if I wanted to do this again.
| ncallaway wrote:
| I bought a drive enclosure that has a hardware RAID built
| in, and I've been pretty paranoid about portability from
| the moment I configured it.
|
| It's probably time for me to figure out converting over
| to software raid.
|
| Thanks for the nudge.
| kelnos wrote:
| Heh, you were "lucky": I had a 4-drive NAS that died on
| me, and no motherboard lying around at all, let alone one
| with 4+ SATA ports.
|
| I bought four cheap SATA-USB3 adapters, plugged them into
| two USB3 hubs, which I then plugged into the two USB3
| ports of a Raspberry Pi 4, and arranged it all quite
| precariously in a small cardboard box that I cut holes
| into for airflow. Performance was terrible, of course,
| but it worked well enough until I could build a proper
| new NAS box.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Okay, that is super creative. I love it!
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| The portability doesn't end with sata or usb ports.
|
| With generic software raid (mdadm), even if you only had
| a single usb port and a single internal drive, you could
| image all the drives one at a time and then access the
| array of images on the single big drive. (not uncommon
| since usually time has passed by the time something
| fails)
|
| It also goes the other way if you needed it to. Say a
| single array member was 4T but you only have a bunch of
| 1T drives, no problem, you can assemble 4 1T drives into
| a 4T container to hold the 4T image, and then use that
| image as an aray member itself.
|
| Even if you don't have any loose external drives, you
| could even do it all via network shares with pieces
| residing on all of your other family members laptops and
| desktops, or every desk in an office, while they all
| still continue running windows and doing their normal
| jobs I mean.
|
| Some of the possibilities are slow or fragile or both, so
| of course you don't set out to use 12 usb2.0 ports, but
| the point is essentially anything is possible, and you
| don't have to worry about predicting or planning for
| every possibility, you just don't have to care about how
| you'll recover the array in the future because it doesn't
| matter what form storage takes at that time, or what form
| you happen to have available. It would almost never make
| sense to do some things, but the point is that mdadm just
| doesn't care.
|
| For a machine with only 2 or 4 internal drives where you
| want to use raid0 for max throughput, and don't want to
| rely on any special firmware support for booting raid0,
| just partition the drives so that /boot is a small raid1
| across all the same drives, so that any of the drives
| could boot. Bonus, it automatically makes all the members
| of your main raid0 slightly smaller than the drive's
| nominal size, which means you can always fit them onto
| some other replacement drive later, even if the different
| manufacturers count bytes and formatting overhead
| differently.
|
| I come from the days of sco unix on scsi hardware raid
| with full featured expensive cards and I do not miss it.
| carlhjerpe wrote:
| https://github.com/Lillecarl/nixos/blob/master/shitbox/di
| sko... this is my declarative partitioning scheme, I use
| mdraid, LUKS, LVM and btrfs. I also mirror my bootloader
| so if one drive dies I can still boot :)
|
| Hardware raid is legacy :)
| itchynosedev wrote:
| Never used disko, are there any gotchas? Will it format
| my drivers if I run nix rebuild?
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| That's only until the machine in question is 5000km away
| and the soonest time you can get to it is in the three
| months.
|
| Sure, for personal usage there is almost no usage for the
| HW RAID, but when you need to make sure what the system
| would always boot and it can't be serviced in hours/days
| - then you have almost no options for SW RAID.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| Incorrect.
|
| No problem to put /boot on a raid1 on a small partition
| across all drives, so that any drive can boot, and no
| problem to even include a whole self-contained remotely
| accessible recovery os. It's a little bit more work to
| set up, but if you are professing a need for that, then a
| little extra setup is de rigueur. I remotely administered
| a ton of linux boxes in racks scattered across the US
| like that for years. Although I had out of band serial
| console access and could do full bare metal reinstall
| that way, I could also do it from any neighboring machine
| that was still running in the same rack if I had to, with
| a combination of network booting and/or booting from any
| one of the normal drives normal raid1 copies of the /boot
| partition.
|
| Further remote-able fallback options that I never even
| had to use but could: Local hands just plucks a hot-swap
| drive from any of my other machines and pops it into the
| bad machine. All drives had the same bootable partition
| and all drives are redundant and so they could yank
| literally any one from the wall of server fronts. Or,
| better, local hands just plugs in a thumb drive and I
| take care of the rest. Thumb drive is already sitting
| there for that purpose, or they could make a new one from
| a download. But with 8 to 24 hot-swap drives per machine,
| meaning 8-24 copies of /boot, I never even once needed
| local hands to so much as plug in a thumb drive.
|
| There is just no problem at all with sw raid. It only
| provides options, not remove them.
| Scramblejams wrote:
| Good call. I have manually repaired a few mdadm arrays in
| my time that would have surely been complete losses in the
| hardware RAID systems I've encountered.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| That is a pretty niche laptop, I think the Framework folks
| are going more for the every day driver kind of experience.
| I've got a Framework 13 and really like it, it is, for me, a
| pretty solid Thinkpad replacement. But the real icing on the
| cake will be when I update the motherboard for an upgrade.
| (since it is relatively new I don't expect that to happen
| until maybe next year).
|
| On the Asus, are both screens touch screens? Or is only the
| lower screen a touch screen? I had looked at 20:2 type touch
| screens to do a sort of "media bar" setup on my desktop but
| didn't find anything at the time I could use. I'm wondering
| how well such a setup might work.
| yandrypozo wrote:
| I'm very curious why people prefer AMD chips (I've never used
| one), would you share why do you and/or people you know like
| AMD so much?
| slaw wrote:
| I have a Dell laptop with Intel i9-12900H. It is very noisy
| and hot.
| bityard wrote:
| AMD CPUs often offer high performance at a lower cost than
| Intel's equivalent offerings.
|
| But some people just like supporting the underdog.
| amiga-workbench wrote:
| AMD have been thrashing Intel in performance, thermals and
| battery life for several years now. Intel are also a rather
| unpleasant company, I'll happily go with a competitor
| whenever it makes sense.
| favaq wrote:
| That changed recently, 13th gen intel remains to be beaten.
| rwalle wrote:
| In what? High-end desktop CPU performance? I don't think
| people in this thread is interested in that.
| pornel wrote:
| When Ryzen first came out, Intel still used the number of
| cores to differentiate their consumer and enterprise lines,
| which meant you could get a bucketload of cores from AMD
| without paying "enterprise" prices.
|
| AMD still tends to have lower actual TDP than Intel, which is
| more efficient in a laptop and easier to cool in a desktop.
|
| If you're going to use the integrated GPU, RDNA generally
| performs better in games.
| acomjean wrote:
| I have linux a notebook with the AMD Ryzen 7 5700u and a Mat
| screen. Its pretty great on battery (6+ hrs). Even the built
| in gpu is good enough for general use. I think these newer
| AMD cpus are even better and worth the wait.
|
| My home linux machine is a ninth gen intel with Nvidia. Its
| technically a notebook, but more like a portable workstation.
| Its powerful, but battery life is terrible (<3) and you can
| hear the fans. It can game quite well however.
| samtheDamned wrote:
| On Linux AMD drivers are by far some of the best, and the
| driver support is miles better both on the end of the 1st
| party support as well as 3rd party software support.
|
| There's a few instances where AMD GPU drivers even outshine
| their windows counterparts like in OpenGL performance.
| Intel's driver support is great as well, but their
| performance recently has not matched AMD, and their iGPUs
| don't compare to AMD's iGPUs.
|
| Also for beefier laptops with discreet GPUs, intel up until
| very recently would need an NVIDIA card to get decent
| performance which would require NVIDIA drivers, which are
| notorious for complicating things on Linux. On the other hand
| AMD laptops with discreet AMD gpus already have their drivers
| built into the kernel which removes almost any potential
| complication.
|
| Also there's personal preference, which in my case leans
| toward AMD because of their generally more open stance with
| their new technology, like raytracing and FSR which is
| contrasted by NVIDIAs typically closed off approach to the
| same things. Intel isn't as bad as NVIDIA in this department
| either but this is just personal opinion.
|
| Lastly AMD CPUs are generally cheaper than intel, and in the
| last few generations performed better overall than intel.
|
| TL:DR AMD on linux has great drivers with good support, the
| synergy between AMD's CPUs and GPUs and their combined APUs
| are very good, and personally I appreciate AMD's more open
| approach to technology like FSR, even if they aren't anywhere
| near perfect.
| bloodyplonker22 wrote:
| AMD has much better performance per watt. As you can imagine,
| this is important in any portable product.
| miloignis wrote:
| I'm one! Just preordered the Ryzen 7, and very excited. Have
| held and messed with my friend's current Intel 13, and I was a
| big fan.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| Or some arbitrary AI accelerator!
|
| Jim Keller should make a Tenstorrent board. They already want
| to make desktop cards, and that would be a great way to market
| them.
| haneefmubarak wrote:
| IIRC Jim Keller is now working on a Atomic Semi (new
| semiconductor fab startup) with Sam Zeloof, so he's probably
| not at Tenstorrent anymore?
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| He was just interviewed a month ago!
|
| https://morethanmoore.substack.com/p/interview-with-jim-
| kell...
|
| If he quit Tenstorrent, that must have been very recent.
| nrp wrote:
| We would absolutely love to see a Tenstorrent Expansion Bay
| Module.
| samtheDamned wrote:
| Yeah the possibilities are exciting to say the least, the
| ability to specialize your laptop into an AI processing
| powerhouse on the fly could be very valuable.
| [deleted]
| vanilla_nut wrote:
| Really exciting to see. I _almost_ got a Framework for my work
| setup last month, but lack of an AMD option held me back. My
| personal laptop is still chugging along, but the AMD Framework
| is at the top of my list now!
|
| If only I'd waited an extra month to order my new work
| equipment.
| twblalock wrote:
| There is always going to be a chorus about something. Power
| users are impossible to please because they all have strong
| opinions but not the _same_ opinions.
|
| People will still want different screen resolutions, aspect
| ratios, keyboard layouts, etc. Now that AMD is available people
| will want particular CPU SKUs. It will never end.
|
| I wish Framework luck, because they are targeting the pickiest
| userbase that exists.
| lumb63 wrote:
| They're targeting that user base in exactly the right way:
| give me options, get out of my way, and let me do it.
|
| Too many platforms lock users into decisions they think are
| best for them, or worse, that they think are best for the
| company making said platform. It's refreshing to be given not
| only options, but options I actually want.
| chaosharmonic wrote:
| I personally held off on getting one until my previous device
| (a Spectre x360) got smashed up in a car crash, but don't in
| _any_ way regret this purchase even if I do still sort of
| miss touchscreens (and probably _also_ would have waited for
| an AMD option otherwise).
|
| But yeah, when I was suddenly in the market for a new laptop
| anyway, the extensive freedom to upgrade and configure this
| made it an _extremely_ easy sell compared to anything else
| that would have been on my radar.
| klardotsh wrote:
| AMD 3:2 thin-and-light at a small overall screen size (but
| still usable) and with replaceable parts checks an enormous
| amount of power-user boxes. Getting off Intel was their last
| critical hurdle, and while for whatever reason it took them
| an eternity to listen to that (rather overwhelmingly loud)
| feedback, they finally did it.
|
| I suspect the choruses will be much quieter now. If I hadn't
| already landed on a Beelink GTR6 mini-PC desktop + MNT Reform
| laptop, I'd be considering this finally - indeed, one of many
| reasons I went Reform over Framework originally was because
| Framework was married to Intel. And frankly, 3:2 still makes
| Framework tempting despite my lack of need for it.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| And if you scroll down you can see the glowing review that they
| got from Linus Tech Tips....
|
| Who owns a stake in their company...Yiiiikes.
| dzikimarian wrote:
| And Linus is completely transparent about it in this and
| following materials. What's the issue?
| OJFord wrote:
| A tiny one though right? Objecting much to that would be like
| insisting on a disclosure that nrp is the long-term owner of
| $1k AMD shares in a pension account or something.
| kup0 wrote:
| Linus has always been upfront about this investment and I
| believe some of his content was from before the investment took
| place. He's explained his reasoning for investing at length and
| has included a disclaimer in places where necessary.
|
| So this is a very uncharitable take. There's plenty of things
| to cringe or criticize LTT for- but this just isn't it
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| ...I'm not criticizing LTT but hey still got the typical
| "Linus does no wrong" take.
|
| My critique was on Framework not disclosing themselves that
| their quote is from someone with a stake in their product
| now.
| Hamuko wrote:
| I think that review might be from before Linus invested in
| Framework.
|
| Not that I can verify it because the Linus Tech Tips channel is
| still banned.
| laweijfmvo wrote:
| It might be before _we knew_ about the investment...
| nrp wrote:
| There are detailed videos from Linus on this topic. No
| conversation took place about investment until after he did
| his review video. When we first saw the video (at the same
| time as everyone else did), we assumed he was joking about
| wanting to invest.
| zmk5 wrote:
| That and the Dave2D endorsements have been there since the
| first laptop.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| I think you are right but it still implies that LTT has a
| valid unbiased opinion on the product now.
| Macha wrote:
| If the opinion presented in that video was shared before
| any business relationship was concieved, I'd hardly
| consider the opinion invalid.
| Aissen wrote:
| We could see it if the LTT account hadn't been taken over
| today, pushed crypto scams, and wasn't currently suspended
| ("the youtube account associated with this video has been
| terminated").
| numberwan9 wrote:
| And LTT is now hacked. Fun times.
| Drybones wrote:
| LTT reviewed the Framework laptop before Linus decided to
| invest into the company.
| bondant wrote:
| Did they announce the dimensions of the 16' model? I've not seen
| them.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Hmm, 16" is great to hear but I see one issue. A decade or so ago
| big laptops let you plug things in the back. This was great
| because you didn't need cables running across your desk, which is
| kinda ridiculous for a desktop-replacement.
|
| This model seems to have the traditional top-mounted screen,
| leaving space in the back, but it is empty. Seems in the rush to
| copy Apple over the last decade, this knowledge was forgotten.
| That's a shame. Personally, I'd like all those ports/cables
| (minus two USB) in the back and off my desk.
| starkparker wrote:
| The back is where the expansion bay/eGPU expansion goes. The
| eGPUs jut out for cooling, and the expansion bay itself is
| modular and the design is open-sourced, so I'll be curious if
| there isn't a port bay.
| pimterry wrote:
| Website has immediately collapsed, but the full announcement
| video is on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccpsyRipHlk
| dom96 wrote:
| That buzzing in the audio doesn't leave a good impression...
| rnk wrote:
| Just put up a page with specs, no videos are needed. I have a
| framework laptop already which has been great, maybe one day
| there will be other laptops with no fan that are powerful like
| an apple arm.
| aestetix wrote:
| They even said they had beefed up their servers to meet demand.
| I guess they need to add even more servers.
| kouteiheika wrote:
| I wonder what exact tech stack are they using for the
| website? It genuinely seems to me that this kind of a website
| should be able to handle this level of traffic on a single
| $10/month VPS, nevermind require multiple servers. But I'm
| probably just out of touch with how modern webdev is done.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| Especially if they're fronting it with a CDN. The only
| things they should be hitting a DB for would be order
| process stuff and account mgmt.
| wmf wrote:
| Clearly they need repairable and upgradeable servers.
| tough wrote:
| Site is back (with a warning/notice of it being slow) now
| deburo wrote:
| Hah, even the youtube video is constantly buffering for me. I
| guess I'll wait for a summary article.
| garyfirestorm wrote:
| the event starts at 27th min
| cristiioan wrote:
| EU servers are still up, but very slow
| rozenmd wrote:
| Regular reminder to cache the crap out of your marketing
| website and to put a CDN in front of it.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| This. Cloudflare is dead simple to set up, but curling your
| own site and setting up a redirect to a cached version of
| your pages is also trivial for anyone who can competently
| operate nginx / apache.
| beilabs wrote:
| Is the matte screen by default on 13"? Don't see any option to
| select when purchasing.
| n3storm wrote:
| No spanish keyboard available :(
|
| https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/the-10-most-spoken-langua...
| nrp wrote:
| We'll be adding the Spanish (Castillian) keyboard before we
| open pre-orders in Spain this summer.
| dmayle wrote:
| When the Framework came out, I was excited, but not in the market
| for a laptop. I've been waiting for the chance to buy one,
| especially as they announced more and more things that I'm
| interested in. Now that I'm finally in the market, I was waiting
| eagerly for this new announcement.
|
| The only question I'm left with now, which Framework to get? Do I
| pre-order the AMD 7040, or do I wait for the new 16 so that I can
| get a GPU? I'm thinking about going the AMD route now, buying the
| dGPU option they have and using it as an eGPU when it becomes
| available, and then switching to the 16-inch chassis when I'm
| ready...
| noveltyaccount wrote:
| The 780M integrated graphics on the 7040 apu is supposed to be
| something like 30% better than in the current-gen 680M. Search
| YouTube for 680M gaming and see if it's good enough for you!
|
| https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-s-Radeon-780M-iGPU-beats-t...
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| The AMD 7040 series is gonna be amazing. They even have an NPU
| which (theoretically) should run models reasonably well without
| a dGPU, M1 style... but we will see how that shapes up.
|
| The 16" will provably perform better though, if you can wait.
| jareds wrote:
| I'm in the market for a new laptop soon and am considering a
| Framework one. Would the 13th gen or the AMD version be good
| enough for basic photo editing? My wife is starting to get
| interested in photography. It would be nice if this could be a
| shared machine that I'd use most of the time and she would use
| for photo editing. If photo editing was something she wanted to
| do frequently she could always get her own machine specifically
| specked for that.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| Yeah. TBH pretty much any good laptop could handle photo
| editing these days.
|
| You probably want the AMD version.
|
| The bigger question is whether it can run stable diffusion
| quickly. And if you dont know what I am talking about, I
| encourage you to check out the InvokeAI infinite canvas or the
| Stable Diffusion Photoshop plugin... its revolutionary.
| Macha wrote:
| > Would the 13th gen or the AMD version be good enough for
| basic photo editing
|
| Pretty much anything from the last decade could handle "basic
| photo editing" from consumer cameras.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| The biggest advantage for AMD IMO is efficiency and thermals.
| AMD beats Intel perf per watt hands down -- it's not even
| close. Intel can't shrink their process node fast enough
| because they use their own fabs. AMD uses TSMC and benefits
| from process advances. Intel has new fabs with better
| technology coming online in the coming years, but Apple M1/2
| and AMD 5xxx but truly 7xxx have them well beat.
|
| Given that laptops have physical size constraints and a 100
| watt hour battery max because of that stupid FAA rule (and mfgs
| don't want to try to explain that they've made a laptop that
| you can't technically take on a plane, even though mall cop TSA
| guards very likely wouldn't catch it), there's only so much
| heat you can dissipate with laptop heat sinks (around 200 watts
| for the latest and greatest cooling solutions, a lot less for
| thin and lights), so performance per watt is what laptop perf
| is all about. Intel 12th gen used to be better than AMD 6xxx in
| single-thread until it rapidly overheated and started
| throttling, but the 7xxx stuff matches or beats 13th gen Intel
| on single-thread. For multi-thread, the best current Intel
| designs are 8 fast cores and 16 Atom cores. The AMD 7945HX is
| 16 fast cores. Combined with the difficulty in scheduling on
| asymmetric cores (Win11 does a decent job and is aware of this
| but it's not perfect), 16 real cores usually wins for tasks
| that require real horsepower. The Intel solution is decent for
| handling many small background tasks (chrome tabs, running
| Spotify, Slack, etc) but there's still a lot of context
| switching happening.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| That was true previous gen, but Intel's efficiency cores make
| them quite competitive this time around.
|
| The 7000 series's advantage is now everything else: IO, the
| GPU, faster memory and such.
|
| I dont even count the 7945HX as a laptop CPU though. That is
| a $2K+ desktop replacement, complete with the same hot idling
| the desktop chips have.
| kcb wrote:
| I'm still seeing equivalent AMD based laptops with much
| higher battery life ratings.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| No surprise there. Intel turbo'd way too aggressively the
| last few gens.
|
| But if you schedule most things to the E cores with
| ProcessLasso/Aniancy, I think you can squeeze much more
| out of them.
| jeffbee wrote:
| There are also Intel parts that contain _only_ efficiency
| cores, like the N200.
| rnikander wrote:
| I wish I could build and deploy iOS apps from Linux on these
| things.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Hopefully a matte screen option??? That's the one thing holding
| me back from getting one. Those stickers they offer don't cut it.
| Amd vs Intel doesn't really bother me either way but a matte
| screen is an absolute must.
|
| Don't have time to check now with the site being so slow but will
| do later. Good to see the amount of attention this receives
| though.
| carry_bit wrote:
| Yep, they have that now.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Great! Thanks I can't get the site to load on my phone. I'll
| definitely consider it then.
| sam0x17 wrote:
| Pleaseeeee give us a GPU
| XorNot wrote:
| 16" with a not stupid keyboard is a compelling offer. Laptop
| sizes have gotten maddening since everyone decided numpads were
| required because who doesn't want to type off centre the whole
| time.
| ac29 wrote:
| Looks like the Intel version is only using P series processors,
| which have higher multithreaded performance than the U series but
| are also more power hungry.
|
| Also, DDR4 only which is significantly slower than the DDR5 and
| LPDDR5 capabilities of the CPU.
| pcdoodle wrote:
| I love what framework is doing <3
| bioemerl wrote:
| If this lets me get a split keyboard I will be all over this 16
| inch model.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Nice, matte display. Almost $200 with tax. Anyone in Calif. want
| to buy a used glossy? May be cheaper to put a film on it, hmm.
| starkparker wrote:
| Definitely cheaper, and some film manufacturers will custom cut
| to fit under the bezel. ViaScreens and Photodon both do this.
| [deleted]
| nrp wrote:
| I'm happy to answer questions that everyone has about what we
| announced! It may be a little while until I'm able to jump back
| on though.
| dmayle wrote:
| Hey! I pre-ordered an AMD version as soon as the site would
| handle it, but I wasn't able to choose between the mattte and
| glossy display. Is there any way to get the matte display with
| the new AMD option?
| nrp wrote:
| The Matte display version is pre-installed on all 13th Gen
| Intel Core and AMD Ryzen 7040 Series Framework Laptops. If
| you do want a glossy display, it's available as a module in
| the Marketplace to swap in (or you can pick up an older 11th
| Gen, 12th Gen, or Chromebook Edition which also have the
| original display).
| kingsleyopara wrote:
| Is there any reason why this isn't a choice at least for
| the DIY configurations? Otherwise seems a bit wasteful and
| against the ethos of the company.
| nrp wrote:
| It's ultimately inventory costs and supply chain
| complexity to manage a larger number of laptop SKUs (CPU
| options * DIY/pre-built * keyboard options * any other
| configurable variable). We're a small team, so when there
| are areas of the product we can condense into having one
| default configuration, we take those efficiencies, while
| still enabling an "escape valve" through the Marketplace.
| kingsleyopara wrote:
| Thanks, that makes sense. Definitely rooting for you and
| will be ordering a 16 when I can!
| tzarc wrote:
| As one of the QMK Firmware maintainers, it's great to see
| you're going ahead with the customisable side of things even on
| the input side.
|
| Might I suggest engaging with QMK early so that we can avoid
| the usual manufacturer "hey can you merge this, we've shipped
| already and forgot to raise the PR until now"?
| nrp wrote:
| Absolutely! We've been chatting with Jack Humbert, and he's
| actually been prototyping an ortholinear keyboard module for
| the Framework Laptop 16. There are likely some photos of it
| in press articles about the event today.
| ploum wrote:
| An ortholinear keyboard? Wow, that's my dream. Do you have
| the link? (and when will you eventually ship to Belgium?)
| pbronez wrote:
| an ortholinear laptop keyboard?????? yes please.
| CarVac wrote:
| Is there a chance you could have individual scissor switch
| key modules made for DIY ergonomic layouts on a custom PCB?
|
| The height limitations of the 16" laptop are too low for
| low-profile discrete mechanical switches.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| Are the AMD processors "U" series or "HS" series? Assuming the
| latter since they seem to be the ones more available initially.
| zmk5 wrote:
| Hey Nirav, thanks so much for the progress you and your team
| have done! Just had a question if there's been some
| benchmarking done for Linux on the new AMD and Intel
| mainboards.
| nrp wrote:
| We don't have any benchmarks we can share yet, but we
| absolutely expect that there will be press reviews that do
| comparisons between Intel and AMD-based Framework Laptops.
| zmk5 wrote:
| Nice! Will Linus be doing this?
| gnufied wrote:
| What would be battery capacity of 16 inch model? Please let it
| be - 99.9Whr. :-)
|
| Congrats on the Launch. This might be Framework Laptop I
| finally could use as my daily driver for regular dev. work etc.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| I didn't quite get what form the modular upgradeable graphics
| would take:
|
| * Is this an "egpu connected by a cable" situation, or
| something actually integrated into the laptop's body?
|
| * What are realistic possibilities for how much gpu, and how
| much of a premium would it be over other laptop or desktop
| gpu's? Is this something you would be making, or third parties?
| noveltyaccount wrote:
| Seems like pcie connection to the mainboard
|
| > The Framework Laptop 16 has an Expansion Bay system that
| contains both the cooling fans and an interface for high-
| power, high-speed PCIe peripherals like GPUs. Expansion Bay
| modules can extend in both thickness and depth to accomodate
| higher power requirements.
|
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay
| cooperadymas wrote:
| Will the 16 have an AMD option at launch? This isn't clear to
| me yet.
|
| Already pre-ordered the AMD 13 but might hold off if it's
| available on the larger version.
| [deleted]
| aojdwhsd wrote:
| What will the aspect ratio of the 16" laptop be?
| starkparker wrote:
| Measuring the screens on the renders, it's 16:10.
| nrp wrote:
| That's correct, it is a 16:10 16" display.
| dtx1 wrote:
| Hey!
|
| Looking into getting the AMD one for Linux! Has the Battery
| Life issues been fixed?
| cge wrote:
| Looking at your mechanical design for the large input module,
| though I can't compare the height at the moment, it appears to
| be almost the same size as the keyboard on the Framework 13.
| While it would obviously require a new input cover design,
| would it be possible to design an assembly that would allow a
| single large input module to be used as the keyboard on a
| Framework 13? Or would there be height problems?
| Entinel wrote:
| Do the 13 and 16 use different mainboards? Can I buy an AMD 13
| and move it to a 16 chassis?
| nrp wrote:
| They do use different mainboards in order to enable all of
| the functionality that exists in the Framework Laptop 16 (6x
| Expansion Cards, the Expansion Bay, and the Input Module
| system).
| [deleted]
| hommelix wrote:
| Will the QMK based keyboard available on Framework Laptop 13?
| ilogik wrote:
| Is this what you showed Linus last week? :)
| schmorptron wrote:
| It's going to be exciting to see which GPU manufacturer they went
| with. Intel salvaging arc? This eGPU that can be slotted in is
| exactly the thing I'd been hoping they would do if they added
| GPUs and the AMD option is incredible. Gonna have to put my money
| where my mouth is once it's time for a new laptop now...
|
| I also think it's important to not underestimate the flexibility
| and marketing aspects of the eGPU design they went with. Someone
| who has a laptop they use for playing games with a still fine CPU
| but outdated GPU might look at this and just buy the eGPU. Then
| when it comes time to upgrade the laptop itself they might be
| all-in on the value of an upgradable system.
| tuukkah wrote:
| > _which GPU manufacturer they went with_
|
| The beauty of this is they don't have to choose. The GPU can be
| anything that communicates over Thunderbolt and fits in the
| physical module specs.
| wmf wrote:
| _anything that communicates over Thunderbolt and fits in the
| physical module specs_
|
| In other words, only the GPU modules that Framework chooses
| to make.
| nrp wrote:
| We've opened the specs specifically to avoid this scenario!
| The information we have up on GitHub today is enough to get
| started on module development, and we'll share any
| additional information that is useful to enable third party
| board makers.
| tuukkah wrote:
| Plus any that anyone else chooses to make.
| ncallaway wrote:
| Yea, that's true in a world where no other company is
| capable of manufacturing a GPU enclosure with the physical
| specs they've defined. Thankfully, I'm pretty skeptical we
| live in that world.
|
| If the framework laptop grows in market size that there's
| enough demand for it, then anyone could manufacture and
| sell those components, which is kind of the point.
| foxandmouse wrote:
| Is there any way I can interact with a framework laptop before
| buying it?
|
| I've always loved laptop hardware, something about having all the
| power of a computer to go seems so freeing to me. forever I've
| been searching for the 'perfect machine' (granted perfect is
| relative to the time). ThinkPads were my favourite when IBM owned
| the brand, and since apple switched to intel nothing came close
| to the complete package offered by a MacBook.
|
| Recently, I've fallen out of love with the hardware (but OSX is
| still amazing). Apple had made is so disadvantageous to dual boot
| Linux that it's not even worth trying, and their own operating
| system has laughably poor support for gaming. (I get that's not
| everyone's use case but I feel like it's because they haven't
| found the right genre of game for them, but that's another
| tangent, and I'm already rambling). The power of the M1 chip is
| so great, but what's the point of powerful hardware if you can't
| run the software you want. So now, after a decade of owning
| MacBook and loving every moment, I have the itch to find
| something else.
|
| Framework is one option, but I've never held one, and frankly
| they look quite ugly/ cheap. My "perfect" device today would be
| if someone put the internals of the steam deck in an iPad Pro
| body, but why sell one device when you can sell 3.
| uni_rule wrote:
| The Microsoft Surface devices feel pretty close to modern Apple
| in fit and finish while also being able to boot whatever else
| x86 you feel like playing with. Unfortunately their stance
| towards repair in practice is also pretty similar to Apple.
| Still, that doesn't change the fact that they physically feel
| quite nice as devices.
| ykl wrote:
| If anything Surfaces are even less repairable than MacBooks.
| At least you can take apart a MacBook with just a screwdriver
| (albeit with some special bits for Apple's weird screws), but
| modern Surfaces are basically filled with glue [1].
|
| [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+
| Tea...
| starkparker wrote:
| Surface Laptops since the 3 are more repairable than the
| tablets. Microsoft posted a disassembly video for the 5,
| which has a magnet-attached C/keyboard cover and Torx
| screws. https://youtube.com/watch?v=6aCpzyfDUnk
|
| I switched from a Surface Laptop 4 to a Framework 13 and
| don't miss much beyond the touchscreen, and only then for
| specific games.
| starkparker wrote:
| There's no retail way to try a Framework. This might not help
| you, but I've got a 13" MBP and 13" Framework both in my lap
| right now and can say if you absolutely can't stand having a
| laptop that doesn't meet Apple hardware fit and finish, just
| stick with Apple. The Framework's my daily driver, it's nice
| but not exceptional, and feels like the $1,000 laptop it is.
|
| The value for me is entirely inside of it. This work-owned MBP
| is more likely to be in a landfill in 2 years than in use. Not
| only will the Framework still be kicking by that point, but
| I'll still have a use for some of the parts that I'll have
| replaced in it (a display, a mainboard, and two of the
| expansion cards) too.
|
| If Mac repairability improves, even with Apple kicking and
| screaming the whole way, _and_ if Asahi keeps improving _and_
| Apple doesn 't backtrack on allowing it to work without hassle,
| that gap narrows and we can just worry about how these _feel_
| compared to each other rather than what they 're capable of,
| and I'd be more likely to consider a Mac. Until then I'd rather
| be on the Framework, if only because it's set up exactly how I
| want it to be and I know I'll be in its ecosystem for a while
| yet.
| mroche wrote:
| The blog pages are functional for me right now:
|
| New 16" Model:
|
| https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16
|
| New 13" Models with Intel 13th Gen and AMD 7000 series
|
| https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-13-with-13th-gen-in...
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| Works for me, thanks.
|
| But the linked Github repos for the (GPU) expansion bay and the
| input module are still private/dead. :/
|
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay
|
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/InputModules
| starkparker wrote:
| They seem to be live/public now.
| pr0zac wrote:
| I think the InputModules one is over at
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/inputmodule-rs
| saligne wrote:
| Some major issues with the livestream too, audio out of sync,
| horrible noise, looked like it was filmed with a potato (lighting
| was godawful). Did not exactly inspire confidence, but the
| upgrades do look nice. Glad there's an AMD option now.
| [deleted]
| renewiltord wrote:
| Probably a good architecture for launch is a Cloudflare Pages
| static landing page that has the CTA link to your website that
| goes through a queue intermediary (invisible most of the time).
| That way you ensure you don't drop any visibility and you capture
| all sales.
|
| Festival and concert tickets are frequently done this way and the
| queue renege rate lets you model how many you would have lost if
| your site failed to load and at what duration.
| O_H_E wrote:
| Wow RPI-based QMK-enabled input modules. That is something else.
| JonChesterfield wrote:
| QMK sounds like the keyboard thing. What things can you do with
| an arm chip sending input to a laptop? Imagination failure
| here.
| starkparker wrote:
| Programmable per-key remapping, layered modifiers that you
| can toggle per app or workflow (ie. quick language layout
| swaps, temporary low-level remaps for games that don't
| support remapping, Blender/Photoshop/editor-specific remaps
| for personal ergonomics, etc.). Tap-hold functions to send
| different keycodes or modifiers when you tap vs. hold down a
| key, often used for home-row mods that move modifier keys
| into the home row when you hold, say, an HJKL key.
| Entinel wrote:
| I'm excited for all of the announcements but they really need to
| hire a production company for these events in the future.
|
| Is there an upgrade path from the current Framework to the 16
| inch chassis or will you have to buy an entirely new laptop?
| o8o8o8o wrote:
| There is something charming about the amateurish feel of their
| livestream, like the money I've given them is going to real
| people doing real work and not into a bloated marketing budget.
| Entinel wrote:
| I don't disagree but the audio actually gave me a headache. I
| don't need them to go full WWDC but lets get that audio fixed
| at least.
| bigredhdl wrote:
| Not just charming, but also makes me feel like they value my
| money and want to make sure it goes toward the mission. It's
| easy to say "hire a production company", but personally, I
| can put up with a clunky PR event if they use the savings to
| keep pushing the mission forward.
| pmontra wrote:
| I wonder what's the width of the 16" version. Too bad that input
| configurability doesn't extend to the touchpad. I would love to
| be able to pick one with three physical buttons. Well, at least I
| could have a laptop without the numberpad.
| nrp wrote:
| While we didn't show a Touchpad module alternative, the
| Touchpad module does slide off, making alternatives technically
| possible. We'll share documentation around this module as well
| soon.
| pmontra wrote:
| This is great news. Thanks.
| uptownfunk wrote:
| Would help if you can show the attributes that vary with price
| first to make sense of why they are priced so differently.
| Foomf wrote:
| I'm still waiting for a touchscreen version. Once that is ready I
| can't wait to get one!
| starkparker wrote:
| When they mentioned a new hinge I got my hopes up for a
| tent/360 hinge and top-cover option for a touchscreen. But it's
| just a heavier-weight version of the existing hinge.
| RedComet wrote:
| The heavier weight one was released awhile ago. I believe
| this one is intended to reduce wobble.
| nabakin wrote:
| They made a blog post on it. Probably better than linking to
| their homepage https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-
| laptop-16-...
| infogulch wrote:
| @dang
| ElijahLynn wrote:
| [flagged]
| alkori wrote:
| @dang
| KRAKRISMOTT wrote:
| How does it compare to the Starfighter?
|
| https://us.starlabs.systems/pages/starfighter
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| The starfighter is a platform generation behind, and _very_
| expensive. $1600 would buy you a (same generation) Asus G15
| with a huge dGPU and good linux support.
|
| TBH I am kind of shocked Framework picked up the AMD 7040
| series so quickly. Usually small manufacturers are stuck with
| older gens.
| runnerup wrote:
| Starfighter doesnt have upgradeable / repairable RAM so it
| doesn't compete in the same niche as Framework. Starfighter
| doesn't look nearly as repairable.
|
| Starfighter doesn't have the proven "longevity" and true
| commitment to mission that Framework has had time to
| demonstrate, now through its second major release.
|
| That all said, Starfighter looks like it has some really cool
| features between open source boot firmware, removeable camera
| and Wi-Fi kill switch.
| starkparker wrote:
| Apples and oranges, kind of. Frameworks are repairable and have
| some hardware transparency, but aren't open, libre, free-as-in-
| freedom, or privacy focused like StarLabs. (EDIT: Looks like
| the 16" Frameworks are 16:10 like the Starfighter, vs. the 3:2
| 13" Frameworks.) Starfighters are Linux-first, Frameworks are
| Linux-compatible, and there are rougher edges on Linux
| Frameworks.
|
| If you want a better or more libre Linux laptop right now, get
| a Starfighter. If you want a laptop with more hardware
| hackability and replacement options, at the expense of
| libre/privacy features, battery life, supported Linux options,
| and high-end performance, Framework's an option.
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