[HN Gopher] SheepShaver: macOS run-time environment for BeOS and...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       SheepShaver: macOS run-time environment for BeOS and Linux
        
       Author : ecliptik
       Score  : 149 points
       Date   : 2023-03-22 06:09 UTC (16 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (sheepshaver.cebix.net)
 (TXT) w3m dump (sheepshaver.cebix.net)
        
       | abujazar wrote:
       | This repo is more up to date -
       | https://github.com/kanjitalk755/macemu Currently recommended
       | builds for macOS:
       | https://www.emaculation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7360
        
       | TheChaplain wrote:
       | Look like a dead project by now, Mr. Bauer haven't been active on
       | GitHub for years. :(
        
         | wmf wrote:
         | Maybe we should say it's a mature and finished project. The
         | requirements haven't changed in 15 years.
        
           | wk_end wrote:
           | ...except it's not. It crashes regularly and has many
           | compatibility issues.
        
       | benkan wrote:
       | BeOS! Good memories. I tried out BeOS maybe 20 years ago until it
       | was dropped. Is it still maintained?
        
         | lproven wrote:
         | You might enjoy this piece I wrote at the start of the year.
         | 
         | https://www.theregister.com/2023/01/11/haiku_beta_4/
        
         | lillywastaken wrote:
         | Haiku is an open source BeOS clone that is still developed, but
         | the original isn't
        
           | benkan wrote:
           | Thank you!
        
         | christkv wrote:
         | You can use haiku os it's the open source beos and even runs
         | the binaries
        
           | memsom wrote:
           | But this requires a PowerPC processor under BeOS so you can't
           | use this with Haiku at the moment. The Linux version looks
           | like it emulates the CPU so it can probably be made to work I
           | guess?
        
             | RuggedPineapple wrote:
             | >But this requires a PowerPC processor under BeOS so you
             | can't use this with Haiku at the moment.
             | 
             | Bold of you to assume a forum full of tech enthusiasts
             | don't have PPC machines sitting around.
        
               | Dalewyn wrote:
               | PowerPC was during my early childhood but our lines never
               | met, so I would be one case where your assumption will
               | unfortunately fall short.
        
               | RuggedPineapple wrote:
               | By the time my family got a home computer it was a 120
               | Mhz Pentium system, but I spent basically all of
               | elementary, middle and high school using m68k and PPC
               | macs at school. During the pandemic i picked up two m68k
               | Macs and 2 PPC Macs to satisfy my nostalgia. I enjoy
               | playing with old tech, but theres nothing wrong if you
               | don't! Different strokes and all that.
        
               | Dalewyn wrote:
               | Ah, please don't get me wrong: I love playing with old
               | tech too. The first computer I used was some 386 or 486
               | machine running Windows 3.11, it even had a turbo button
               | and a 5.25" floppy drive. Really wish we still had that
               | thing.
               | 
               | It's just my path never crossed PowerPC's, so I don't
               | have the nostalgia for them that I do for classic x86
               | hardware. Regardless I'm sure they are an important piece
               | of computing history.
        
               | speed_spread wrote:
               | Will BeOS PPC run on a POWER workstation like the Talos
               | Raptor? That would be a hell of a combo...
        
               | RuggedPineapple wrote:
               | Near as I can tell the POWER9 chips (at least the IBM
               | ones) only have backwards compatibility through POWER7
               | from 2010. The last PPC chip Apple used, the G5,
               | implemented the POWER4 ISA, so that's pretty far back.
        
               | rbanffy wrote:
               | Haiku should be portable to it, but that's a lot of
               | computer for an OS that is not daily-driver grade.
        
               | memsom wrote:
               | Haiku will never support legacy BeOS PowerPC apps though,
               | as that makes no sense. PEF is hard to support even
               | today.
        
               | memsom wrote:
               | Nope. It really never even supported G3 officially. It
               | will boot on the BeBox natively an a Mac with a boot
               | loader. Without modifying the kernel, I doubt it will
               | boot on much else.
        
               | memsom wrote:
               | No, not really. It isn't just PowerPC, it is a very
               | specific and picky Mac, has PCI, is old world, has a 603
               | or 604 processor when shipped originally. If you have
               | one, you then need a copy of BeOS R4.5 or R5, and getting
               | that installed can actually be non trivial (as
               | ActionRetro proved on YouTube - it was my custom pre
               | built image that he finally got working.)
               | 
               | I have 2 BeOS PowerPC boxes, so yep - know all the
               | hassles first hand.
               | 
               | If you do too - awesome, you should come find me on Haiku
               | forums and we can contribute to the BeOS PowerPC
               | preservation effort I started last year.
        
       | lillywastaken wrote:
       | It's probably worth mentioning that you can also use QEMU, which
       | is a bit more involved but can use a bigger disk and also run OS
       | X, and Mac OS 9.2.2 (as it supports an MMU, SheepShaver doesn't)
        
         | memsom wrote:
         | You can, but not under BeOS. Under BeOS Mac OS is run almost
         | like Classic was on MacOS X. The OS is more or less virtualised
         | as a user space app, and the CPU is not emulated in any way.
         | That's the main reason that BeOS only supports PowerPC. Indeed,
         | if you run it on a Mac under BeOS it doesn't even need a
         | toolbox ROM
        
         | kps wrote:
         | Is QEMU the best option to run older OS X (in particular Snow
         | Leopard, and yes, a legal retail purchased physical copy) on a
         | modern machine? I currently keep a rather bulky cheese grater
         | to run a few programs from time to time.
        
           | stonogo wrote:
           | QEMU will work the best, but Snow Leopord prohibits being
           | virtualized via its EULA. Snow Leopard Server is licensed to
           | run in virtualization.
        
             | kps wrote:
             | My memory is that it only had to be run on Apple hardware,
             | but perhaps I should go back and check. Or just not tell
             | anybody, and hope the Apple Police don't get me -- it's not
             | like I'm letting something that old out to play on the
             | internet (though I do sometimes miss iCab).
        
               | stonogo wrote:
               | The only reason I know this is that VMWare desktop
               | products will refuse to run it for this reason. QEMU has
               | no such self-imposed limitations...
        
           | sharikous wrote:
           | That's the option with the least headache. I believe there
           | are other simulators too but they are much more specialized.
           | 
           | With some hacking you can run all MacOS/MacOS X versions on
           | x86, x64 and PPC from 8.6 to 13 if you have a x64 machine. If
           | you have an Apple Silicon one it gets too slow to simulate
           | around 10.10 (on x64 you can use hvf virtualization). It
           | might be a bit less nice than tailored emulators like
           | SheepShaver but having the same UI for all these OSes (plus
           | other OSes) beats everything in my opinion.
           | 
           | Unfortunately Apple Silicon machines cannot be simulated
           | without some hidden knowledge only some secretive companies
           | have. Hopefully the knowledge will become public some years
           | from now.
        
         | buserror wrote:
         | Unfortunately qemu isn't as 'integrated' as Sheepshaver --
         | theres the mouse grab problem, also no disk sharing with the
         | host (the read[/write] fat32 disk don't seem to work, at least
         | under 9.2.2)
         | 
         | I had a a project for #marchintosh of making myself a nice
         | powerPC emulation stack to recompile and open source quite a
         | few free/shareware I did back then, but I more or less gave up
         | as I couldn't find something 'comfortable' to work in. I guess
         | I'll have to find, dust up and try to hook that old G4 Mac Mini
         | that I'm sure is in a drawer, somewhere :-)
        
       | snvzz wrote:
       | Great it's open source software in the form of a git repo now.
       | 
       | But for some reason, using the same repository for 3 independent
       | projects horrifies me.
       | 
       | The commits are unavoidably going to be all over the place, and
       | tracking one project's changes hard.
        
         | rvense wrote:
         | I don't think they're completely independent.
        
         | rizky05 wrote:
         | It's called monorepo for a reason.
        
           | snvzz wrote:
           | TIL.
           | 
           | Still, I see more cons than pros in macemu's case.
        
       | sli wrote:
       | > for BeOS and Linux
       | 
       | And also for OS X, Windows, and BSD.
        
       | exitb wrote:
       | The use of "macOS" capitalization somehow makes it appear as if
       | it's about the current Apple OS, when in fact this is about
       | classic MacOS.
        
         | troad wrote:
         | I really look forward to reliable (modern) macOS emulation, a
         | la wine. I miss some of my wee little Mac utilities / games now
         | that I'm in Linux full-time. I'm rooting for the guys working
         | on stuff like Darling[0], but it looks like they still have a
         | long road ahead.
         | 
         | [0] https://darlinghq.org/
        
           | drewg123 wrote:
           | I took a look at their page, and they say that they _"
           | finally have basic experimental support for running simple
           | graphical applications"_. However, their blogs/progress
           | reports are 4 years old. Do you know how far along their
           | support for graphical apps is? Running GUI apps is what's
           | going to make this useful, and is what nobody else (AFAIK)
           | was ever able to do.
        
         | Gys wrote:
         | Yes, if I remember correctly this can only run Mac OS 9.
         | Strange that this is not mentioned (?) on the github page.
        
           | RuggedPineapple wrote:
           | It can run up to OS 9, not just OS 9. It'll run any classic
           | Mac OS that supports PPC, so I think that takes you back to
           | the 7.5 line.
        
             | Findecanor wrote:
             | Please don't call it "OS 9" on the Internet. Googling for
             | OS-9 resources is difficult enough as it is.
             | 
             | <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS-9#Name_conflicts_and_cour
             | t_...>
        
               | mattl wrote:
               | If I search for "OS 9" without any quotes or anything I
               | get the Wikipedia article for Mac OS 9. I think it's
               | fine. There's enough niners out there keeping things
               | alive.
        
               | Aloha wrote:
               | I think that was what the poster was implying was the
               | problem. MacOS 9 and OS-9 are not the same thing. OS-9 is
               | a Real Time OS originally for 6800/68000 processors.
        
               | IncRnd wrote:
               | It's not really an issue. Searching for os 9 gives one
               | OS's results. Searching for mac os 9 gives the other OS's
               | results. Super easy.
        
               | LoganDark wrote:
               | The issue is that searching for "os 9" also gives results
               | for Mac OS 9, making searching for OS-9 results harder.
        
               | IncRnd wrote:
               | Thanks for the explanation. In that case, the following
               | search works:
               | 
               | -mac os 9
        
               | MarcoZavala wrote:
               | [dead]
        
               | babypuncher wrote:
               | The proper name is Mac OS 9, you are never going to
               | convince people to call it by something else just to make
               | a far more obscure operating system easier to find on
               | Google.
        
             | philwelch wrote:
             | 7.1.2 was the first version that ran on PPC
        
           | haunter wrote:
           | >Strange that this is not mentioned (?) on the github page
           | 
           | "run classic PowerPC Mac OS applications"
           | 
           | "Runs MacOS 7.5.2 thru 9.0.4. MacOS X as a guest is not
           | supported."
        
             | Gys wrote:
             | I see it now as well, strange that I completely missed
             | that. Thanks.
        
         | doomlaser wrote:
         | Mac OS, to be pendantic about styling :)
        
           | lproven wrote:
           | Nope.
           | 
           | No space.
           | 
           | MacOS == System 1 to MacOS 9.
           | 
           | Mac OS == OS X == 10.0 to 10.12.
           | 
           | macOS == 10.13 to 13.
        
             | CharlesW wrote:
             | > _MacOS == System 1 to MacOS 9._
             | 
             | I can't speak to previous releases, but Mac OS 9 definitely
             | used a space. (Before looking it up I would've bet on "no
             | space" too, BTW.)
             | 
             | https://imagej.nih.gov/ij/docs/install/images/about.gif
        
               | atdrummond wrote:
               | I believe the space was added when they formally renamed
               | the operating system Mac OS in 1996 (with System 7,
               | specifically 7.6).
        
               | chongli wrote:
               | System 7.5.1 and later used the name Mac OS in its boot
               | screen [1] but the boxes still said "Macintosh System
               | 7.5" [2] up until the release of 7.6.
               | 
               | [1]
               | https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/12/69888558_ee83d000f9.jpg
               | 
               | [2] https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims?image_uri=https:%2F%
               | 2Fs3.am...
        
             | tgma wrote:
             | Actually there was a period when they dropped Mac
             | altogether and called it "OS X" (Mountain Lion era)
        
               | lproven wrote:
               | Good point!
        
             | fzzzy wrote:
             | Mac OS always had a space. Before it was called Mac OS, it
             | was called the System Software.
        
       | rbanffy wrote:
       | Instead of emulation like this (which is really cool, BTW), I'd
       | love to see something like GNUStep or Etoile growing into a full
       | implementation of all macOS APIs so that I could just build a
       | native Mac application against it and have it run on Linux.
        
         | kitsunesoba wrote:
         | I think that it's often underestimated just how much of what
         | made/makes OS X/macOS good is actually in AppKit and the
         | various other frameworks it's used with. Parts of it are a
         | little aged compared to something that's received more
         | attention in the past decade (like UIKit), but it still does a
         | LOT of heavy lifting and makes developing a polished, capable
         | desktop app much less of a headache.
         | 
         | In writing apps with other desktop UI frameworks, it's become
         | evident just how much AppKit does well that many frameworks
         | barely do or don't offer at all. Sometimes it's even really
         | basic things, like how WinUI somehow has no first-party
         | tableview despite that being one of the most fundamental
         | desktop widgets.
         | 
         | Cross-platform AppKit would be a dream setup.
        
       | pflanze wrote:
       | There's also Mac-on-Linux (MOL), which I've been using from ~1999
       | to run the original OS under Linux on my Mac hardware until I
       | dropped Mac OS completely a few years later. It does require a
       | PPC host. I remember back then MOL was preferable to SheepShaver,
       | but I don't remember why anymore.
       | 
       | [1] https://www.maconlinux.net/
        
         | goosedragons wrote:
         | Fun fact! You can use Mac on Linux to run Mac OS on your
         | Nintendo Wii.
        
         | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
         | > I remember back then MOL was preferable to SheepShaver, but I
         | don't remember why anymore.
         | 
         | Speculation: Running on native hardware probably give you
         | better performance, and probably meant that you didn't have to
         | provide a ROM file because it could just read the chip that's
         | actually installed in the machine.
        
           | memsom wrote:
           | Sheepshaver runs natively on supported Macs under BeOS and
           | you likewise don't need a ROM file as it uses the one built
           | in to your Mac. The real reason is probably it doesn't
           | support MacOS past 8.5 really. Not well.
        
         | pajko wrote:
         | SheepShaver does not run MacOS X, just the classic, while MOL
         | runs both. Been using MOL about at the same time to check out
         | OS X, which led me buying a Pismo, my first and last Apple
         | machine.
        
       | kstrauser wrote:
       | SheepShaver was the successor to the Amiga's ShapeShifter Mac
       | emulator (also written by Christian Bauer). I had fun running Mac
       | OS and games on my Amiga. It also had the interesting property
       | that my Amiga had a 68060 processor, which no Mac had, meaning
       | that it was faster at running 68k apps than any official hardware
       | was.
        
       | mmphosis wrote:
       | There is no ppc970 emulator that I know of that can run Mac OS X
       | 10.5 with "Quad Core" PowerPC (64-bit) 16 GB RAM specs.
       | https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/index-powerma...
       | 
       | qemu-system-ppc (2019) can run Mac OS X 10.5 PowerPC
       | https://wiki.qemu.org/Documentation/Platforms/PowerPC
       | 
       | pearpc (2015) can run Mac OS X 10.3 PowerPC with caveats
       | https://pearpc.sourceforge.net/
       | 
       |  _SheepShaver_ can run Mac OS 9.0.4 PowerPC
       | 
       | Basilisk II can run Mac OS 8.1 68k
        
         | indrora wrote:
         | There was the Floodgap guy who got Macos running on the Power9
         | desktop boards.
         | 
         | I wonder where that went
        
           | mmphosis wrote:
           | https://www.talospace.com/2018/08/making-your-talos-ii-
           | into-...
        
       | Waterluvian wrote:
       | I used Sheepshaver to emulate system non-PowerPC games + System
       | 7.5.3 when making Mac game nostalgia videos on my YouTube many
       | years back. I found it to be far more performant than Basilisk
       | for anything that wanted to run with Quickdraw. It also seemed to
       | have less clipping audio.
       | 
       | I should see how it runs all these years later on a Linux box.
        
       | DeathArrow wrote:
       | The reference to BeOS brings me good memories. It was a time then
       | the world of desktop operating Systems was much bigger than
       | today.
       | 
       | BeOS, Syllable, SkyOS, Atheos, ReactOS, QNX etc.
       | 
       | At its time I liked BeOS phylosophy more than that of Linux and
       | Windows, it's a shame it didn't take off.
        
         | MisterTea wrote:
         | BeOS felt like it was going to become a serious modern
         | alternative OS for the PC focusing heavily on multimedia,
         | similar to MacOS (Be was founded by ex Apple people so it makes
         | sense.) Unfortunately it never happened. Thy pivoted to
         | internet appliances, Palm bought them out, the end. I still
         | have my R4 and R5 media somewhere.
        
           | sharikous wrote:
           | It was seriously considered by Apple as the successor of the
           | classical MacOS but they got too greedy with the price and
           | Apple went with a NextStep based OS.
           | 
           | In all honesty BeOS had no leverage because they were so
           | committed to build the successor of MacOS that they had no
           | alternative plan
        
             | lproven wrote:
             | Be _did_ get too greedy with the asking price, you 're
             | right.
             | 
             | But that was not the only thing.
             | 
             | Be had no particularly special story about dev tools; NeXT
             | had the world's best, plus a charismatic, visionary CEO.
             | 
             | Be should have gone and done a deal with Acorn, who could
             | have done them a silent-running, passively-cooled SMP
             | multi-ARM workstation in 1998 for less than the cost of a
             | mid-range Mac.
             | 
             | Acorn had cheap SMP hardware ready to go. Be had _the_
             | state-of-the-art SMP workstation OS before Linux 2.2 made
             | it able to scale usefully.
        
               | smm11 wrote:
               | Be didn't have anything. Developers, developers,
               | developers, right?
               | 
               | Late 90s I was running OS X Server, Be, and NeXT. NeXT
               | was better than OS X Server, and Be was far behind.
               | Looked pretty, but that was about it. Funny thing is I
               | live in a browser and text editor now, and the Be install
               | I ran in 99 would just about do it!
        
               | sillywalk wrote:
               | If only, I miss BeOS. ... Though I think it would be the
               | same chicken/egg APPS problem with the BeBox: Unless you
               | could run existing Risc OS apps under BeOS, I doubt Acorn
               | users would want to switch, and porting existing apps
               | through a Carbon-like API subset would probably be hard,
               | because I gather a lot of apps use assembly and hacks to
               | the OS..
               | 
               | ps I just started trying out Risc OS after reading a
               | couple of your articles on it (modernizing (or not) and
               | the gem of an os (or not)).
               | 
               | I've got it on my pi 400, and use it for writing without
               | distraction (no wifi!), and there is _no_ latency while
               | typing. The ADJUST button thing is also pretty neat.
        
         | Eric_WVGG wrote:
         | Neal Stephenson's _In the Beginning Was the Command Line_
         | speaks quite favorably of BeOS. He described the Windows world
         | as being a kind of car dealership that sold clunkers, Linux as
         | a place where anyone could walk in and buy a US Army M1 Tank,
         | and BeOS as fully operational Batmobiles.
         | 
         | https://web.stanford.edu/class/cs81n/command.txt
        
           | lproven wrote:
           | You missed the point.
           | 
           | You could buy a Ferrari or a Ford, but an M1 Tank that ran
           | for 1000 miles on a cup of fuel was _for free_. Keys in,
           | sitting there. Get in, drive off.
        
             | Eric_WVGG wrote:
             | yeah sorry it's been twenty years since this was published
        
             | ofalkaed wrote:
             | In those days Linux was an M1 that sort of but not quite
             | ran on your local fuel and was 1/2" wider than your garage.
             | The fuel problem would be sorted out just as soon as the
             | engineers can get your city to admit what they added to the
             | fuel but they won't even admit having knowledge of anything
             | called "fuel." Eventually you get the new part that will
             | make your M1 run on your local fuel but you need to rebuild
             | the engine to install it, you don't really have any clue of
             | how to do that but you have been talking to some vague
             | personas in an alley for the past 3 nights and you are
             | fairly certain you can do it. All seems to go well until
             | you try and reinstall the engine, somehow it has gotten
             | considerably larger than it had been and no longer fits in
             | the engine compartment. So you rebuild it again, and again,
             | and again, finally it works but now the glove compartment
             | light is flashing error codes in Morse and the radio
             | constantly drifts out tune. Repeat once or twice a year
             | until about 2005 or so.
             | 
             | But you have your M1, you can not buy ammunition for its
             | guns or drive it on any roads because the tracks will eat
             | up the pavement but it is your M1.
        
             | tialaramex wrote:
             | On the whole tanks don't have keys. Similar reason to
             | airliners.
        
               | lproven wrote:
               | :-D Fair point.
               | 
               | I merely quoted -- or at least paraphrased -- the
               | original essay itself:
               | 
               | << They've been modified in such a way that they never,
               | ever break down, are light and maneuverable enough to use
               | on ordinary streets, and use no more fuel than a
               | subcompact car. These tanks are being cranked out, on the
               | spot, at a terrific pace, and a vast number of them are
               | lined up along the edge of the road with keys in the
               | ignition. Anyone who wants can simply climb into one and
               | drive it away for free. >>
               | 
               | https://web.stanford.edu/class/cs81n/command.txt
               | 
               | This essay is so important, so valuable, and so blasted
               | insightful, that even though I read it more than 20 years
               | ago, I can still remember key phrases, and search for it,
               | find it, and quote from it in _seconds_.
               | 
               | It should be one of the seminal texts of the FOSS
               | movement. And yet most people don't know it, or if they
               | do, they don't get it and misquote it or misinterpret
               | important points... such as here, claiming that people
               | were trying to _sell_ Linux up against BeOS and MacOS and
               | Windows, when the _real_ point was that although it was
               | better than all the commercial competition in important
               | ways, it was _FREE_ and yet the people that developed it
               | _literally could not GIVE IT AWAY_ for nothing, up
               | against inferior commercial OSes.
               | 
               | And they still can't.
               | 
               | Everyone has probably also forgotten by now that Sun
               | bought StarOffice and tried to give it away, and nobody
               | cared. So some forgotten Sun exec, who actually
               | understood how businesspeople's minds work, made a
               | discount version. It was $89.95 or something, alongside
               | and as well as the free version.
               | 
               | The result was a modest explosion in business uptake.
               | 
               | A free office suite? Must be junk. But a bargain basement
               | full-function office suite, for eighty bucks when MS
               | Office costs a few hundreds? That's a steal! Great -- I
               | will have that and push it out across my business!
               | 
               | It worked.
               | 
               | And now, Linux is on the desktop and it's a roaring
               | success, selling hundreds of millions of units, and
               | outselling Macs.
               | 
               | It's called ChromeOS, and when I point this out, the
               | geeks of HN get _very angry_ at me, and complain, and say
               | that I 'm moving the goalposts, that ChromeOS doesn't
               | count, that it's not _really_ Linux.
               | 
               | They accuse me of "bad faith":
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34925697
               | 
               | They call my argument "BS":
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34928295
               | 
               | Even one specific commenter I really respect and whose
               | posts I find richly informative and learn from, flat out
               | deny that it is Linux:
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34971384
               | 
               | Ah well.
               | 
               | We all know Linux runs servers, routers, and most
               | smartphones, but if it's on the desktop, and it costs
               | money, then it's obviously not Linux. If it's a
               | successful desktop that people like, it clearly can't
               | really be Linux, right?
               | 
               |  _Shakes head, walks away._
               | 
               | Anyway, for better context, here's the whole passage from
               | ITBWTCL:
               | 
               | << With one exception, that is: Linux, which is right
               | next door, and which is not a business at all. It's a
               | bunch of RVs, yurts, tepees, and geodesic domes set up in
               | a field and organized by consensus. The people who live
               | there are making tanks. These are not old-fashioned,
               | cast-iron Soviet tanks; these are more like the M1 tanks
               | of the U.S. Army, made of space-age materials and jammed
               | with sophisticated technology from one end to the other.
               | But they are better than Army tanks. They've been
               | modified in such a way that they never, ever break down,
               | are light and maneuverable enough to use on ordinary
               | streets, and use no more fuel than a subcompact car.
               | These tanks are being cranked out, on the spot, at a
               | terrific pace, and a vast number of them are lined up
               | along the edge of the road with keys in the ignition.
               | Anyone who wants can simply climb into one and drive it
               | away for free.
               | 
               | Customers come to this crossroads in throngs, day and
               | night. Ninety percent of them go straight to the biggest
               | dealership and buy station wagons or off-road vehicles.
               | They do not even look at the other dealerships.
               | 
               | Of the remaining ten percent, most go and buy a sleek
               | Euro-sedan, pausing only to turn up their noses at the
               | philistines going to buy the station wagons and ORVs. If
               | they even notice the people on the opposite side of the
               | road, selling the cheaper, technically superior vehicles,
               | these customers deride them cranks and half-wits.
               | 
               | The Batmobile outlet sells a few vehicles to the
               | occasional car nut who wants a second vehicle to go with
               | his station wagon, but seems to accept, at least for now,
               | that it's a fringe player.
               | 
               | The group giving away the free tanks only stays alive
               | because it is staffed by volunteers, who are lined up at
               | the edge of the street with bullhorns, trying to draw
               | customers' attention to this incredible situation. A
               | typical conversation goes something like this:
               | 
               | Hacker with bullhorn: "Save your money! Accept one of our
               | free tanks! It is invulnerable, and can drive across
               | rocks and swamps at ninety miles an hour while getting a
               | hundred miles to the gallon!"
               | 
               | Prospective station wagon buyer: "I know what you say is
               | true...but...er...I don't know how to maintain a tank!"
               | 
               | Bullhorn: "You don't know how to maintain a station wagon
               | either!"
               | 
               | Buyer: "But this dealership has mechanics on staff. If
               | something goes wrong with my station wagon, I can take a
               | day off work, bring it here, and pay them to work on it
               | while I sit in the waiting room for hours, listening to
               | elevator music."
               | 
               | Bullhorn: "But if you accept one of our free tanks we
               | will send volunteers to your house to fix it for free
               | while you sleep!"
               | 
               | Buyer: "Stay away from my house, you freak!"
               | 
               | Bullhorn: "But..."
               | 
               | Buyer: "Can't you see that everyone is buying station
               | wagons?" >>
        
         | ofalkaed wrote:
         | We have Haiku which is getting quite good and Amiga is still in
         | production, their new computer that is currently in beta
         | testing looks pretty good, they would possibly get me to part
         | with the money if they released a laptop.
        
           | tialaramex wrote:
           | > Amiga is still in production, their new computer that is
           | currently in beta testing looks pretty good
           | 
           | The Amiga "Tabor" or "A1222" is a very, very silly machine.
           | Because they insist on PowerPC even though that's basically a
           | long dead architecture, the best available CPU for it was the
           | QorIQ P1022 a SOC designed to be inside say a mid-range
           | Ethernet switch a decade ago.
           | 
           | In the event they actually ship a product in some sort of
           | volume (say, dozens) before NXP discontinue the processors
           | altogether this would be _far_ worse than a PC or Mac you
           | could have bought in 2015 when it was conceived, and yet also
           | far more expensive, very silly.
        
             | ofalkaed wrote:
             | It is very very silly of you to think they are trying to
             | compete with modern general purpose desktops, they are
             | attempting to fill a niche which Amiga helped create and
             | has never quite been filled since their demise despite
             | modern computers being so much "better."
             | 
             | I was referring too the X5000 which is PowerISA
             | architecture. A1222 is planned to be around $500 which is
             | not all that expensive, X5000 is on the expensive side.
             | Considering my use of such a computer would be to run
             | various audio software that was designed for much slower
             | single core machines I suspect a dual 2ghz processor with
             | XMOS coprocessor would be quite satisfactory. It would
             | allow me to use some software which does not play well with
             | emulators and would probably be just about ideal for my
             | needs when it comes to a studio computer.
             | 
             | I suspect the A1222 project was scrapped due to shutdown
             | fallout, chip shortages, etc but who knows, it may still
             | happen.
        
           | VyseofArcadia wrote:
           | I installed Haiku on an old netbook recently.
           | 
           | It ran like a dream, except for kernel panicking every 5
           | minutes.
        
             | waddlesplash wrote:
             | That's not normal behavior (these days, anyway!) A lot of
             | users are able to go months without kernel panics,
             | especially on certain kinds of older hardware.
             | 
             | Did you report any of these panics?
        
             | rebolek wrote:
             | I installed Haiku on an old Eee and yes it runs like dream
             | and I haven't experienced single kernel panic yet. I'm
             | thinking about installing it on something "bigger" than Eee
             | as I was really surprised how usable and nice the OS is.
        
         | eddieroger wrote:
         | I can't remember if I learned about BeOS on ZDTV or a magazine
         | or where, but I do remember going in to Best Buy with the
         | intention of buying it as a nascent teenager with a license. My
         | heart broke a little that I couldn't just walk in a store and
         | get it, but I still ordered it and learned a lot about dual
         | booting my parents' Packard Bell thanks to Be. I loved how it
         | was focusing on being a media operating system, with good
         | graphics and audio processing capabilities, and I was a kid who
         | loved music and the radio. If only it had survived.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | sjm-lbm wrote:
           | There was a version of BeOS (iirc, it was the last version
           | they released) that could be installed in a file on a
           | Windows9x hard drive and booted to by using a boot floppy.
           | 
           | It really was an impressive and innovative way to get people
           | to try a new OS, keeping in mind that most people couldn't
           | (and still can't, to be fair) set up a more normal dual boot
           | setup. I think they were just too close to shutting down by
           | that point, so nothing ever really came of it.
        
       | WillAdams wrote:
       | Rather a shame that Executor got lost in the shuffle:
       | 
       | https://github.com/ctm/executor
       | 
       | and didn't stick around until Rosetta and so forth went away and
       | it became potentially more useful.
        
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