[HN Gopher] Medieval monks were distracted too
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Medieval monks were distracted too
Author : drdee
Score : 113 points
Date : 2023-03-20 18:34 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Among the resources that have been plundered by modern
| technology, the ruins of our attention have commanded a lot of
| attention. We can't focus anymore. Getting any "deep work" done
| requires formidable willpower or a broken modem. Reading has
| degenerated into skimming and scrolling. The only real way out is
| to adopt a meditation practice and cultivate a monkish existence.
|
| > But in actual historical fact, a life of prayer and seclusion
| has never meant a life without distraction.
|
| I don't think anyone serious claims "distraction" is a new
| phenomena that didn't exist before "screens." The actual claim is
| more like the magnitude of distraction is higher now.
|
| To give a slightly different example: complaining that your
| memory is poor because you can only memorize 100 poems _is very
| different_ than complaining your memory is poor because you can
| 't memorize 10 lines, even though they're both "complaints about
| memory." Unfortunately, a lot of people engage with these
| comparisons without looking at the actual details and
| differences, so they say useless things (often with the effect of
| denying a problem).
| StrictDabbler wrote:
| Previous societies never required that 80% of the working
| population be scribes.
|
| Being a scribe is hard. It was an unusual ability to such an
| extent that it reinforced the medieval notion of a "vocation"
| (a calling or duty to do this work).
|
| Now we require every worker who wants to rise above the level
| of retail sales to be capable of spending hours a day going
| down columns of detailed textual data in Excel or Airtables, or
| managing a queue of e-mails, or smoothly transitioning between
| inventory and maintenance.
|
| It is less that we are more distracted or distractable now and
| more that our current tasks are significantly affected by
| distraction.
|
| We're being forced by the labor market to pretend that we
| aren't chimpanzees.
| paganel wrote:
| Thing is, me personally I used to be a better "scribe".
|
| Meaning I did know how to be a good enough "scribe", but
| lately I feel like I'm doing a poorer and poorer job when it
| comes to getting it done. And most of it is related to the
| ability of focusing on the job at hand, or, to be more exact,
| to the decreasing ability of doing it.
|
| It could be that I'm getting older (I'm in my early 40s),
| could be related to post-Covid effects (as pretty much all of
| us have have Covid at least once), could be that with
| "experience" (i.e. with getting older) I've begun to realize
| that it is not worth it to do certain things the way I did
| them before, I can't really tell which is which, but the
| difference with before is there.
| Nevermark wrote:
| > It is less that we are more distracted or distractable now
| and more that our current tasks are significantly affected by
| distraction.
|
| Clearly both?
|
| Processing dry material on a screen, that also offers
| endlessly seductive doom scrolling opportunities?
|
| Sandwiched productivity & entertaining unproductively closer
| than its ever been!
|
| It would be like a scribe trying to copy an endless and far
| too familiar religious text, while avoiding the pull of the
| odd pages, which all depict explicit colorful animated scenes
| of delicious sin.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| I don't think "clearly both" makes sense when comparing two
| things. Perhaps you are making a straw man of the parent
| comment?
| chordalkeyboard wrote:
| I think it is reasonable to assert both that distraction
| has been a problem for hundreds of years and that it is
| considerably worse now than it had been.
| bibanez wrote:
| That is a great analogy! Technology is this wonderful book,
| so is it reasonable to expect that we won't read half of
| it?
| StrictDabbler wrote:
| It's funny, I deliberately used "less that X, more that Y"
| to underline that both factors contribute instead of saying
| "it's not that X, it is that Y."
|
| I'm sympathetic to your response but I don't think that
| very many people are ignoring their work for fancy, high-
| impact content because high-impact content remains taboo.
|
| Distracted people are mostly not watching TikTok, which is
| an obviously fireable offense.
|
| They are mostly, as always, staring at the wood-grain on
| their desk for the two seconds it takes to forget which
| part of the TPS form they were entering.
|
| As Spongebob said "I can't write with all these eraser
| shavings all over my paper! Now they're floating in my
| thinking space!"
| [deleted]
| themitigating wrote:
| Can you quantify or prove that we are more distracted?
| chaseadam17 wrote:
| There's quite a bit of data. The early chapters of Stolen
| Focus by Johann Hari provides a good overview of the
| research, which shows that people are increasingly switching
| their attention from one thing to another (both in
| longitudinal research studies and by analyzing things like
| how long topics trend in the news). He then goes on to
| summarize research that shows how "intelligence" drops when
| people switch focus too quickly. Eg speed reading drops
| retention, multitasking reduces IQ, etc.
| themitigating wrote:
| That just shows the effects but not whether people were
| more distracted in the past
| mat_epice wrote:
| You responded to the second sentence, not the first.
|
| "The early chapters of Stolen Focus by Johann Hari
| provides a good overview of the research, which shows
| that people are increasingly switching their attention
| from one thing to another"
| AlexErrant wrote:
| Screenshot of 4 relevant pages from the book:
| https://i.imgur.com/AwwdEc4.png
|
| The most important part, for me, was this bit:
|
| > What they discovered is there is one mechanism that can
| make this happen every time. You just have to flood the
| system with more information. The more information you
| pump in, the less time people can focus on any individual
| piece of it.
| jjulius wrote:
| It's okay, they just got distracted! :P
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| I'm sure this question is coming from an earnest place, but
| does it not stand to reason that the sheer amount of
| information we have almost ubiquitous access to, combined
| with personalized content recommendation, means that we are
| more distracted than a medieval person who had no exposure to
| such things? How would one even try to assert this
| empirically?
| vasco wrote:
| A medieval person also didn't go through school, likely
| wasn't taught how to read or forced to work through math
| problems and do almost 20 years of schooling with the
| intention of improving their thinking skills, analytical
| skills, memory and attention.
|
| So it is not obvious at all which effects dominate and if
| this isn't just the same drivel that Gessner spouted in the
| 1500's about how books and the printing press were going to
| create an information overload and ruin our attention
|
| - https://slate.com/technology/2010/02/a-history-of-media-
| tech...
|
| - https://www.jstor.org/stable/3654293
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| Given how popular TikTok and short form content is with
| the younger generations who are currently in school or
| just graduated from 20 something years of schooling, I
| don't think all that intention of improving their
| "thinking skills, analytical skills, memory and
| attention" is that effective at countering contemporary
| distractions. Have you seen the latest trend where Gen
| Z'ers zone out by watching a TikTok that has a family guy
| clip, some arts and crafts clip, and some gameplay
| footage all on the same screen? It is the epitome of
| distraction and it's catching on like wildfire because
| people watching these switch between each subject on
| screen just enough to hold their attention. The algorithm
| is rewarding that, so more and more TikToks have
| composite videos.
|
| Going back to the subject of contemporary education, one
| could also speculate that ~20 years of schooling
| replacing ~20 years of apprenticeship and mastery of a
| single craft makes the ability to resist distraction
| worse. Perhaps teaching someone to make wagon wheels for
| 20 years makes them better able to focus on a single
| thing than teaching them to learn all sorts of different
| subjects for a few hours each day?
|
| People like to look back at previous generation's moral
| panics, but I can't help but think there was an element
| of truth to many of them.
| vasco wrote:
| > People like to look back at previous generation's moral
| panics, but I can't help but think there was an element
| of truth to many of them.
|
| What is the element of truth then? What was the negative
| impact of the printing press and how did it end society
| and our ability to pay attention to things?
|
| It's so strange to have someone hear that their concern
| has existed for hundreds of years, the doom and gloom
| never materialized, and yet still double down on the same
| thing. What besides your intuition or the fact you share
| the same fear actually would lead you to think that this
| time it's different and tiktok is the technology that'll
| ruin us?
| operatingthetan wrote:
| >the doom and gloom never materialized
|
| I mean, didn't it for some people? The church lost their
| ability to be the sole source of the bible once printing
| presses started churning out books. So the church lost a
| significant aspect of their influence on the public.
|
| In effect when there are people screaming about societal
| changes it typically means they stand to lose some
| position of power they currently hold because of it.
| vasco wrote:
| You're introducing unrelated things. This thread is about
| human's attention span, ability to focus and memorize due
| to how we consume media as new technologies are
| developed.
|
| It's not about a technology being able to displace power
| away from a specific organization or not. That's not an
| argument anyone was making here.
| themitigating wrote:
| Wouldn't they have to be more mindful of safety and
| personal health. Like an increase in dangers from
| criminals, food, buildings, etc
| bongoman37 wrote:
| [dead]
| contravariant wrote:
| Can't recall many people trying to read a book on a bike.
|
| For some reason they seem to think it will work when the book
| is electronic and small enough.
| quadrifoliate wrote:
| > For some reason they seem to think it will work when the
| book is electronic and small enough.
|
| Do you mean a stationary exercise bike?
|
| I don't read books on those because I am usually sweating
| and I don't want to get that on the book. Also, most
| paperbacks are pretty springy, so sometimes I need to have
| one hand holding them open, or some kind of clip system on
| the bike.
|
| iPads or Kindles don't have these problems, so I can
| certainly imagine using them instead. I don't, probably
| because of an irrational aversion to getting anything from
| the grungy gym on my personal devices.
| Swizec wrote:
| > Do you mean a stationary exercise bike?
|
| You may be surprised to learn people do text and bike.
| I've done it on occasion when running late to a meetup
| with friends.
|
| It's ... not very safe.
| nehal3m wrote:
| No no, actual bicycles. The Netherlands, famous for
| having 1.3 bicycles per capita [1], has implemented a law
| intended to prevent mobile phone use on very non-
| stationary, moving bicycles [2].
|
| [1] https://amsterdamfox.com/news/the-number-of-bicycles-
| per-cap... [2]
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/27/dutch-
| cyclists...
| periphrasis wrote:
| When the weather gets nice in nyc, the bike lanes fill up
| with people slowly meandering about the lane as they
| cycle one-handed, eyes glued to their cellphones.
|
| My unscientific, purely vibes based take is that the
| ubiquity of the smartphone has created such widespread
| severe dopamine addiction that basic human judgment and
| even self preservation instinct is increasingly impaired.
| rakejake wrote:
| Well, once when I was out walking, I saw someone peeing
| on a trail side, dick in one hand, phone in the other.
| There is a social crisis of some sort and we basically
| have no idea how to get out of it.
| WeylandYutani wrote:
| It was the Japanese who made phones water resistant so
| that you could text in the shower.
| cheq wrote:
| My unscientific, purely vibes based take is that we are
| made dependant on stuff like google, internet and
| smartphones, so, why learn? why memorize?
| WeylandYutani wrote:
| I see people checking their phone while riding a bicycle
| all the time.
| conjectures wrote:
| An exhortation to consider effect sizes is different to a
| claim about the effect sizes in a specific situation. It
| could be that OP is doing both, but you appear to be
| neglecting the former.
| coding123 wrote:
| It's obvious
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| And, importantly, technology today is _expressly designed_ ,
| with legions of extremely smart PhDs building in instantaneous
| feedback loops, to keep you as addicted as possible. And these
| experts' job performance is specifically rated on how good they
| are at addicting you.
| cheq wrote:
| In highschool, a teacher told me that 'comparisions are usually
| bad arguments', and that shit stuck with me for a long time.
| gretch wrote:
| Um, I mean is it even true? Did they offer any insight on why
| this is the case?
|
| Comparing a new thing to an old familiar thing or a current
| fact can really help people overcome irrational bias against
| the fear of the unknown.
|
| Metaphors, similes, and analogies are all comparisons and all
| recognized as powerful forms of rhetoric.
| datavirtue wrote:
| "Metaphors, similes, and analogies.." all of which are
| seductive and cause us to think we know more than we really
| do.
| agumonkey wrote:
| It's a phrase transition or threshold effect. The constant,
| lag, effort, "cost" free stimulation is indeed different. I
| have to manage my mood through sports and or fasting to hope my
| brain can sustain more than 10 min of calm reading.
|
| I still have "open tab" reflexes anytime I get next to my
| laptop and my eyes shift left regularly just as-if there were
| some google news side bar stream coming.
| tedmiston wrote:
| https://archive.is/1XYY9
| bobobob420 wrote:
| thank you
| hereme888 wrote:
| I asked ChatGPT 4 to tell me from that article the key actionable
| takeaways people can apply to their daily lives. I'm sleep
| deprived and prefer that to reading a long-winded article. Here's
| the response:
|
| "Firstly, it highlights the importance of daydreaming and mind-
| wandering as a way to promote creativity, problem-solving, and
| self-reflection. Readers are encouraged to carve out time in
| their schedules for these activities, rather than dismissing them
| as distractions.
|
| Secondly, the review emphasizes the importance of boredom in
| stimulating creativity and the generation of new ideas. It
| suggests that people should embrace boredom and resist the urge
| to fill every moment of their day with stimulation, as this can
| stifle creative thinking.
|
| Thirdly, the book review discusses the potential benefits of
| practices such as meditation, mindfulness, and journaling in
| promoting self-reflection and reducing stress. It suggests that
| these practices can help people to better understand their own
| thought processes and cultivate a greater sense of well-being.
|
| Finally, the review highlights the role of technology in shaping
| our attentional habits and urges readers to be mindful of their
| use of technology. It suggests that people should be intentional
| about their use of technology and take steps to reduce
| distractions and increase focus, such as turning off
| notifications and limiting screen time.
|
| Overall, the book review provides actionable takeaways that
| readers can apply to their daily lives, such as prioritizing
| daydreaming and mind-wandering, embracing boredom, practicing
| mindfulness and journaling, and being intentional about
| technology use."
| matonias wrote:
| We will never know
| popedriver wrote:
| As a young adult who constantly finds themself glued to their
| phone for much too long, I can relate to the distraction-
| epidemic. Does anyone know of any good solutions out there for
| helping curb the "addiction" to screens a bit?
| eldritch_4ier wrote:
| Clearspace is an option here: https://www.getclearspace.com
|
| I'm not affiliated in any way, just heard about them in the
| latest YC batch.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| The argument of humanity living a perpetual zombie state is hard
| to buy into when comparing the past and present. Especially when
| comparing monks who arguably have dedicated much of their life to
| awareness.
|
| The differences of "distractions" are what matters here. Being
| distracted with god, your body, your emotions, or your mind is a
| human condition. Being distracted with artificial things is
| another.
|
| Monks have extensive memories. Contemporary man has the memory of
| a goldfish. Two completely different ways the brain can work if
| given the right amount of stress and daily practice.
|
| Much research has shown that those who meditate regularly have
| built a deliberate skill to focus their attention where needed.
| Many people struggle to do even that as modern attention is much
| more scattered between artificial distractions.
| reidjs wrote:
| On memory:
|
| Is memory even that useful anymore? Now that we are all
| literate and can offload our knowledge to our devices, perhaps
| the ability to keep that written information organized and
| having systems is a more useful skill than being able to recall
| the information directly from your head.
| NoZebra120vClip wrote:
| tl;dr, but here's the difference: we willingly purchase devices
| that are sworn servants of entities who profit from grabbing our
| attention, engagement, and cash.
|
| I doubt that you can say a monk, who may be distrated by flies
| buzzing, or cows mooing, or his brothers' quills scratching at
| vellum, is on the same plane of distraction as someone who's
| jacked in to the Cybernet at all times.
|
| There's an interdependence and reliance on these distraction
| factories, now, where people have given over functions to their
| phone: such as wallet, notebook, any and all communications with
| loved ones (especially in the post-C19, increasingly isolated
| urban wastelands.) If we can't live without our phones, and we
| rely on our phones for the minimum functions of life, what does
| that say for their ability to distract us?
|
| Monks who are good at prayer are good at managing distractions.
| You don't simply "shut them out" or shun them. You roll with them
| like a reed swaying in the wind. I have practiced a tiny bit of
| Centering Prayer (see also, Hesychasm or Mindfulness). It is
| marvellous. I simply wish I could do it every day and live a
| lifestyle that's centered on Christ. Needs lots of devotion and
| practice. It won't reduce my distractions or ruminations, but it
| will help me become the master of my own thoughts.
| psychphysic wrote:
| No one is suggesting distraction is an entirely unique phenomenon
| that's ridiculous.
|
| But monks did not have multiple objects actively trying to engage
| their attention.
|
| The closest historical similar situation I can think is the
| Victorian Gin houses.
|
| Even books can only engage passively and only those who could
| read.
| lordleft wrote:
| The difference between a medieval monk and a smartphone-wielding
| modern is that the former had fewer options for dopamine-
| generating distractions, while we have a limitless supply in our
| pocket. At a certain point the monk might be so bored that a
| treatise by Avicenna might actually be preferable to doing
| nothing at all, and that is no small inducement to deep progress,
| the processing of emotions, and contemplation more generally.
| eternalban wrote:
| Funny thing about mentioning Avicenna (Ibn Sina) and "dopamine-
| generating distractions".
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b00855lt
|
| Avicenna apparently had a very strict schedule of putting down
| the quill and enjoying the company of his women. So now, the
| fact of his genius notwithstanding, what does that do with the
| dopamine and distraction theorem given this man was
| unbelievably productive in his life?
|
| https://historyofphilosophy.net/did-avicenna-kill-himself-ha...
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Avicenna apparently had a very strict schedule of putting
| down the quill and enjoying the company of his women. So now,
| the fact of his genius notwithstanding, what does that do
| with the dopamine and distraction theorem given this man was
| unbelievably productive in his life?
|
| Probably not much. I forget the exact term, but when people
| refer to "dopamine" in the contact of distraction, they're
| not really talking about dopamine in general, but rather
| things like slot-machine-like random enforcement engagement
| mechanisms (which can be explicitly designed, like in social
| media apps, or accidentally "fall out" of new tech-enabled
| activities).
| jaqalopes wrote:
| I've also seen it suggested that modern tech is causing
| people today to be less in touch with their physical bodies
| and the bodies of those around them. I personally think I'm
| much happier and more "productive" when I have access to
| physical intimacy (which, as with perhaps many people today,
| is less often than I would prefer). Perhaps it's all related?
| eternalban wrote:
| Add the discipline bit (which he had in spades) and I think
| you may have something there. I'm struggling a bit thinking
| of the correct word here; _satisfaction_ and _contentment_
| come to mind, as well as _un-settled mind_ when
| _dissatisfied_.
|
| It all seems to boil down to the mind, and where you stand
| on the mind-body (none?) issue. These days I'm tending to
| be far more accepting of the unified view that dispenses
| with the duality.
|
| _The un-settled mind_ is prone to distraction, naturally.
| flangola7 wrote:
| My mind is definitely more focused and at peace if I have
| recently cuddled or had sex with a friend in the past
| couple of days.
| soiler wrote:
| I would not consider a _scheduled_ physical /social/emotional
| activity to be a distraction. Is eating lunch a distraction?
| Is sleeping a distraction? If anything, I think Avicenna
| supports the value of reducing distraction.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| I'm not sure they're mutually exclusive categories. A friend
| became a monk and I've visited several times, some of the monks
| have and use smartphones.
|
| Modern monks at least have almost no unstructured time, or
| freedom to select a new task merely because they're tired of
| the current one. I don't know if this is how medieval monks
| lived but I suspect it wasn't that different.
|
| So I suspect boredom in its usual sense is not part of the
| experience, because "nothing at all" isn't an activity that
| they do. Almost their entire long day is specifically allocated
| to focused tasks. I'm sure their minds wander during prayer and
| attention flags during routine toil. But they have no freedom
| to choose something else, and so never get to do something like
| read a book "out of boredom."
| prometheus76 wrote:
| I have been around monks and spent extended stretches of time
| at Orthodox Christian monasteries, and I'd like to clarify a
| couple of things: monks can and do get distracted and they
| can, indeed, just leave their cell and go outside if they
| want to. There is a passion called "acedia" that attacks
| every monk to a greater or lesser degree. Acedia is the
| "spirit of noonday". It's distraction. It's the desire to do
| anything else except whatever it is you're doing (especially
| prayer). It's the desire to be somewhere else or to do
| something else. It can take the form of gluttony, or the form
| of going to talk to another monk, or the form of just going
| for a walk instead of praying.
|
| Also, monks are praying the whole time. All the time. They
| are usually repeating a short prayer in their minds while
| they work, while they walk, while they eat. All the time. Of
| course, they get distracted and their minds wander
| (especially the newer monks), but the aspiration is to "pray
| continually". They aren't just letting their minds wander
| around and think about whatever they want. A lot of their
| effort and attention goes into constantly guarding their
| minds against distracting thoughts and re-focusing on prayer.
|
| Monks (Orthodox Christian monks, anyway) do, indeed, have
| freedom to choose something else, but the whole point of
| their ascetic struggle is to ignore those impulses and to
| stay in prayer.
| CretinDesAlpes wrote:
| I experienced one of those strict Vipassana retreat for 10
| days where most of the distraction you take for granted in
| today's life are forbidden: no reading, no talking, no phone,
| no internet, no physical contact in the premises and no
| contact from people outside. It's the closest it can be to a
| life's monk. Your day is clearly structured, essentially
| waking up at 4am, meditating, doing some simple tasks,
| meditating, eating, meditating, eating, meditating, sleeping.
| If you play the game (which I did), you literally spend
| 10h/day meditating. In a sense "boredom" just becomes an
| experience by itself which paradoxically isn't boring
| anymore.
|
| As it's been noticed here, surely monks were not distracted
| by the same technology and at the same scale we are
| distracted to in today's world. When I came back to the "real
| world" from this experience, I could realise how much one
| life's was just constantly distracted.
| P_I_Staker wrote:
| [dead]
| low_tech_love wrote:
| Yeah, and Clippy could also talk to you and give suggestions and
| such. ChatGPT is nothing new.
| thepasswordis wrote:
| First I want to take this opportunity to plug one of my favorite
| books as of late: "Sayings of the desert fathers". It is a
| collection of writings from very early Christian monks (around
| 200AD): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0140447318/. Cannot
| recommend this enough.
|
| You can read more about these monks here:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Fathers?useskin=vector
|
| And here is a famous quote from Saint Anthony: "A time is coming
| when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad,
| they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad; you are not like us."
|
| This is relevant because a lot of the things in this book have to
| do with removing distractions. The monks were doing it to pray.
|
| Okay that said:
|
| Something I've been noticing about myself lately, which could
| just be reading comprehension decline?
|
| I tend to skim what people write _heavily_. So much of what
| people write seems completely pointless. ChatGPT and other LLMs
| have really laid this bare. You can take a simple statement like
| "tell this person that I can't make it to dinner", and it will
| expand it into several paragraphs of niceties, but the actual
| information is the same.
|
| I've noticed that it makes it difficult to switch back to
| information-dense reading, and to actually _read_ all of it
| instead of reflexively skimming it to try and glean out the seed.
| rcktmrtn wrote:
| > I've noticed that it makes it difficult to switch back to
| information-dense reading, and to actually read all of it
| instead of reflexively skimming it to try and glean out the
| seed.
|
| Keeping on the religious theme I've noticed this with the
| Psalms, even before considering the GPT stuff. I think I grew
| up taught to be over-dismissive of many types of poetry. I
| always had an impression that it was mostly just silly space-
| filling pseduo-deep reused imagery and repetition. School
| didn't help dissuade me of this.
|
| For me, I think the thing to overcome is to focus on the value
| of a sense of respect for the author and the work unto itself,
| rather than just valuing the "understanding" you get from the
| text (which will always be shaped by preconceptions). A sense
| of awe (maybe at divine inspiration, maybe at near-divine
| genius, or maybe just at the sacrifice of time and life-force
| an ordinary person gave up to create something). For the
| example of the Psalms, I have noticed that despite finding the
| language clunky at first, they have a certain way of sticking
| in your head that prose does not.
|
| A strategy I've been focusing on recently is giving myself
| permission to reread (and maybe memorize) important/enjoyable
| works. Reading something twice is basically the opposite of
| skimming, or a way to counteract skimming. There probably is
| such a thing as rereading something more than it deserves (I
| reread Calvin and Hobbes for the zillionth time recently, which
| I still deeply enjoy but now it's more of a way to relax my
| mind before bed than a source of insight) but there are
| certainly works that do deserve it [1].
|
| Anyway, something I've been thinking about a lot as well and I
| agree that it's fascinating to consider how fundamental is it
| to the human condition that monks have been struggling with it
| for millennia. The book recommendation is appreciated.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0OY1RDe8Yg
| eggy wrote:
| My first thought is that the distractions on your smartphone are
| more vapid and and they keep you from noticing the real world
| around you. The equivalent I can recall was reading books on the
| NYC subway on the way to High School or home. The book was chosen
| by me and did not beep or vibrate while in my pocket, and I was
| still aware of my surroundings. I'll take old school distractions
| any day. Phones vibrating and beeping are Pavlovian, and we are
| the dogs in the system.
|
| Edit: I find reading HN like picking up the newspaper. I
| appreciate the simple layout, but I can make a comment and be
| active if I choose.
| ta988 wrote:
| You have the choice. My phone is always in fully silent mode. I
| choose when I get updates from it. Only a few people are on an
| emergency list that make the phone ring and they know not to
| bother me for mundane things.
| eggy wrote:
| Yes, but just look around you on a crowded bus or train. Most
| people are walking or riding with their heads down at the
| phone. You are the exception.
| cheq wrote:
| You have to be really educated and be aware of the potential
| risks of losing your attention via the phone. Most of the
| people just rely on it to not think about stuff or to not
| think about problems, and maybe for them it's not a choice.
| [deleted]
| yamtaddle wrote:
| Bet they'd have been more distracted if you held a no-expense-
| spared carnival with entertainers and games and sports of all
| sorts and intellectuals and blow-hards from all over the world
| gathered _in and around_ their monastery, whooping it up and
| putting on plays, shows (some of them... gasp, _sex_ shows!),
| speeches, round-tables, demonstrations, et c., 24 /7, non-stop.
|
| That's what _every_ place is like, now, with always-on available-
| everywhere Internet. Any of us can switch from whatever we 're
| doing, to paying attention to the carnival, in about two seconds
| flat, anywhere, any time--and that's when the carnival's not
| actively bugging us to come take a look. It's always right there,
| tempting us.
| soiler wrote:
| That is a significant part of it, but there's more to the
| problem.
|
| Consider the simple task of looking up the definition of a word
| that you've been pondering. In pre-internet times, you'd
| physically have to move your body toward a specific room and
| seek a specific book. There may be a carnival, but even if you
| look that way and get distracted, you can reorient yourself and
| refocus on your goal by simply assessing your physical
| positioning and posture in space. "Ah yes, I am standing in
| this hallway facing east because that's where the library is."
|
| On your phone, you pull it out of your pocket and unlock it.
| Probably the unlocking is not distracting on its own, but it's
| also quite possible that you've got some "useful" information
| on your lockscreen which can distract you immediately. Bad
| start, but let's pretend it doesn't happen.
|
| Ok, now you're on your phone. There's a bunch of different
| apps, many of them actively trying to capture your attention -
| carnival-goers calling out to you to look at their show.
| Alright, distraction achieved - now tear yourself away and get
| back to your task. What was that task again? You see a bunch of
| apps, and you're curious about what's in them. And it would
| only take seconds to get a little bit of value from any of them
| - news, uplifting stories, comedy, whatever. Can context help?
| You're in the same place physically and emotionally that you
| are for most of your life, on your couch (or maybe in front of
| your actual computer). Nothing is different from the times when
| you are actually intentionally opening those apps. Oh well, it
| will come to you, just pass some time at the carnival...
| bovermyer wrote:
| Yeah, this is my problem.
|
| ....and Hacker News is part of it, at the moment. Gonna close
| this tab and go work on something for awhile.
| echelon wrote:
| In a perverse sense, maybe it's good.
|
| The choices we make can be divided into creation and
| consumption. The more you can push yourself to create, the more
| power you'll wield. If you can control what you consume, it'll
| make you a better creator.
|
| Easily available distraction raises the activation energy of
| your would-be competitors. If you can avoid the distraction
| yourself, you can get ahead.
|
| A twisted way of looking at it, but it has some truth.
| gausswho wrote:
| See also allegory Plato's Cave. I think I'll sign off the world
| wide carnival for today.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Which is why they invented clocks, to remind them to focus on
| prayer. Unfortunately however, their clock towers inadvertently
| caused the break from solar/biological time to artificial "time-
| keeping" and via John Harrison's marine chronometer to imperial
| adventure, plunder and modernity that buried God in the "tombs
| and sepulchres" of His dead churches.
|
| Sometimes it's just best to let the mind wander.
| louhike wrote:
| I wonder why humans have been concerned with being distracted for
| so long. And I think we can wonder about it without refuting
| social networks can be (though not always) bad for you.
| [deleted]
| neonate wrote:
| http://web.archive.org/web/20230322140015/https://www.nytime...
|
| https://archive.ph/QMJHA
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