[HN Gopher] Kenji Lopez-Alt spent 5 months studying Chicago thin...
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Kenji Lopez-Alt spent 5 months studying Chicago thin-crust pizza
Author : jwcooper
Score : 159 points
Date : 2023-03-18 14:32 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| 331c8c71 wrote:
| How does Chicago thin-crust pizza compare to restaraunt-made
| pizza found in Italy and (to certain extent) elsewhere in Europe?
|
| The photos in the article look just like normal pizza to me
| (maybe the topping looks a bit drier than usual).
|
| EDIT: I don't see mozzarella on the photos. Not having it is not
| uncommon, for instance in France, but it's a must in an Italian
| restaraunt except for pizzas that don't have mozzarella by design
| e.g. marinara.
| codemac wrote:
| It upsets me this is called "Chicago" when clearly it came from
| further east - these "working class pizza taverns" being common
| across Indiana, Ohio, and PA as well. There are plenty of
| examples of these types of "no I started thin crust and square
| cut" pizza tavern places everywhere.
|
| And even worse is that I am no historian and I'm probably wrong.
| But my direct experience contradicts a lot of the Chicago-washing
| of this article. For example Donato's in Columbus obviously made
| this style popular across the country far more than Chicago, and
| they weren't inspired by Vito & Nick's or something.
|
| I bet someone right now is writing an article about how the pizza
| sandwich served at crappy pizza/bar places in the midwest was
| invented in Chicago too - even though it was probably
| independently invented in many locations.
| jghn wrote:
| There are stylistic differences on these tavern thin crust
| styles across the upper midwest region. When I hear "chicago
| thin crust" I don't expect it to be 1:1 equivalent w/ columbus
| style pizza, st louis style pizza, etc. I assume Kenji knows
| this as well, as for instance I know he's talked about st louis
| style in the past.
|
| Granted the non-paywall link hasn't loaded for me yet, so for
| all I know he claims the entire broad-country style was
| invented in Chicago. In which case, yes I agree with you.
| kenjilopezalt wrote:
| I actually talked with Jim Ellison who is a historian of
| Columbus style pizza. He also confirmed the style started in
| taverns on the south side of Chicago and spread from there,
| including to Columbus where it took on its own regional
| differences (particularly swapping sausage for a ton of
| pepperoni, and using a different style of pan).
|
| We had to cut some bits from the article for length.
| codemac wrote:
| Thanks for correcting me! I will hold in my heart that this
| is chicago-washing, regardless of evidence to the contrary.
| And Jim Ellison is definitely more knowledgeable than me.
| abawany wrote:
| Unrelated, but thank you for your excellent articles and YT
| videos. I'm a big fan and even though my ability to execute
| these recipes is limited, I learn a lot of techniques from
| your work that I am able to apply.
| therealdrag0 wrote:
| Kenji, I noticed you show up once every few years on HN when
| your article is posted. How does that happen? Do you set up
| alerts? Does your publisher let you know or ask you to engage
| with the comments? Do you read HN any other time? Thanks.
| xhevahir wrote:
| I didn't grow up in Chicago but in my experience visiting
| relatives in the southwest suburbs the thin-crust pizza I ate
| there (usually Aurelio's) was pretty distinct from other kinds
| I've eaten in the Great Lakes states. The description other
| commenters have given of a "cracker" crust is apt. A pizza
| parlor where I worked in Michigan, for example, had thin pies
| cut "party-style" but with a much chewier crust.
| BuckRogers wrote:
| When I first moved Chicago, I found it weird to run into
| natives that considered tavern style pizza as also Chicago's
| style. In Iowa we just generally consider that the Midwest
| style pizza but that's definitely the style preferred by locals
| for many decades.
|
| Chicago is the Big Apple of the Midwest so I guess they think
| everything originated from there. But I'm pretty sure tavern
| style either came from back east, or where I'm from along the
| Mississippi River.
| isaacsanders wrote:
| They're different. Columbus pizzas aren't as dry in the crusts.
| Chicago tavern cut crusty edges crumble in one's mouth. I
| prefer Columbus' style, and I think it would do well in
| Chicago.
| user_named wrote:
| A story about nothing. Follow the recipe and you're done.
| koromak wrote:
| He's not a mommy blogger, usually his stuff is worth reading.
| This one is a bit more of a story though, rather than an
| investigation.
| stametseater wrote:
| This seems to be the way with all online recipes. SEO crap.
| joezydeco wrote:
| Pages about pizza, especially crap like "top 10 pizza joints
| in Chicago!" are a guaranteed way to generate clicks in the
| midwest. People will argue about that shit for days.
|
| I've had Fox's, I've had a lot of Vito and Nicks (or Nick and
| Vitos, they listed in the phone book both ways), when really
| the best pizza is whatever is local and your parents bought
| you all the time as a kid. Which means Pinocchio's in Niles
| IL before it burned down the first time.
| vidanay wrote:
| In the 80's in Arlington Heights the pizza of choice was
| either Dondi's or Wayne's. Sadly, Dondi's changed ownership
| about 15 years ago and went seriously downhill. They
| finally went out of business last year. I have heard that
| Wayne's is still in business and is still great.
| manicennui wrote:
| I moved back to the NW suburbs after being in the city
| for 15 years, and good pizza is exceedingly hard to find
| out here.
| cainxinth wrote:
| It's a story about Chicago's much lesser known (and superior)
| style of pizza.
| ChancyChance wrote:
| > (and superior)
|
| Hey hey hey! _waves hands in the air wildly_
|
| If it doesn't come from New Haven I ain't interested.
|
| Besides, who wants to eat a saucy saltine. I like my gluten
| hydrated.
|
| Seriously though, pizza science has such a weird intersection
| with computer-types. Why don't computer-types get all fired
| up about lasagna, or ice cream sundaes, or stir fry? Why only
| things like pizza, cast iron, and espresso?
| tptacek wrote:
| Have you ever tried a Chicago neighborhood-style pizza? Or
| are you just dismissing it on spec?
| llimllib wrote:
| (I think they misinterpreted the parent comment as saying
| that Chicago thin crust is superior to New Haven, instead
| of that it's better than the more well-known-outside-of-
| Chicago pizza style, which is what I think the parent
| comment was saying.
|
| (If they _were_ actually saying that Chicago thin crust
| is in fact better than New Haven thin crust, well then I
| don't need to try this pizza either to know that it's
| not. /s))
| manicennui wrote:
| I lived in Chicago for 15 years. Tavern-style pizza in
| Chicago can be good, but Piece's pizza (New Haven style)
| is better than most Chicago-style pizza. My go-to before
| I left the city was Crushed Pizzeria, which is
| Neapolitan-influenced. The only place I can ever remember
| eating decent tavern-style pizza is at dive bars. The
| thin crust from places like Giordano's and Rosati's is a
| soggy disgusting mess.
| tptacek wrote:
| As you'd expect, since Giordanos and Rosatis are deep-
| dish spots. Malnatis will sell you a thin-crust pizza,
| too, and it's cut into squares --- but it's not Chicago
| neighborhood-style pizza.
| tayo42 wrote:
| I've never seen this intersection of computers and pizza
| before.
|
| There's stir fry enthusiasts though. Or at least wok users.
| You need wok hei and super hot burners, electric won't cut
| it etc...
|
| I've also seen some intense breakdowns of pad Thai, like it
| wasn't a recent invention for tourism
| cainxinth wrote:
| Rice cookers, too. Lots of techie opinions about those,
| e.g. is induction worth the extra money.
| necubi wrote:
| In fact, Kenji just released a book about Wok cooking!
| OJFord wrote:
| Has Uncle Roger reviewed it?
| grogenaut wrote:
| Is this similar to St Louis 's square beyond compare thin
| pizza or pretty similar? Mmm imos
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| I've only had St Louis pizza in St Louis once, and the big
| difference is the cheese. I didn't like it, but certainly a
| lot of people do like it or it wouldn't survive as a style
| of pizza.
|
| Edit - Wikipedia says that St Louis pizza crust doesn't
| have yeast in it. Chicago thin crust definitely uses yeast.
| graupel wrote:
| Provel isn't worthy of using the word "cheese" to
| describe it. (said lovingly as someone who worked in STL
| and was often handed pies of "office pizza" from Imo's.)
| dole wrote:
| Each Imo's franchise is independently owned, and uses
| either Provel or cheaper "Zesty Pizza Loaf" depending on
| location.
|
| Now that I think about it, it's like a white, grainy,
| Velveeta. One of the biggest problems with a cracker-thin
| crust is that you need to eat twice as much (or more) to
| get full, and it's not any cheaper, but Imo's does lay
| strips of bacon across their Deluxe and I'm a basic
| bitch.
| fbdab103 wrote:
| I am not even a native Chicagoan, though I lived there for
| many years, and I am personally offended anyone could have
| such a stance. I want each slice to be a meal.
| dhosek wrote:
| Proper tavern-style pizza is cut into squares, not slices.
| Slices are for tourists.
| p0pcult wrote:
| You can take your lasagna and have it.
| fbdab103 wrote:
| Exactly. It has everything I want: meat, cheese, and the
| bread all pre-packed for consumption.
| p0pcult wrote:
| Right, but it's not pizza.
| OJFord wrote:
| I think GP means pizza. The 'bread' really confused me (I
| even commented on it) until I realised (and deleted) -
| that's not how I make _my_ lasagnes!
| fbdab103 wrote:
| Yeah, sorry. Common complaint about a Chicago deep dish
| is that it is a lasagna or bread bowl and not a pizza.
| Different strokes for different folks but on the scale of
| New York thin crust to Chicago deep dish, I will veer
| towards the more hearty option every time.
| [deleted]
| wsatb wrote:
| Most Chicagoans I know do not eat deep dish often, nor do
| they even really like it. But...as someone else said, this
| isn't really the alternative. The crust is just plain
| wrong.
| jghn wrote:
| Yep. Of the several native chicago friends in my extended
| friend circle, all but one has a strong preference for
| the tavern square cut style
| pessimizer wrote:
| To be fair, an awful lot of upper-middle class esp. North
| Side Chicagoans aren't from Chicago. The inner suburbs
| are far more Chicago than a lot of neighborhoods in the
| city that are filled with various Midwestern emigrants
| (who didn't think they were good enough for NY, and
| didn't think they were good _looking_ enough for
| California, so ended up in the second city.) The inner
| suburbs are filled with the descendants of white flight
| from the 50s-70s, who had been in the city for
| generations when most of its cultural touchstones were
| established.
|
| I'm from Chicago and I like deep dish, but these big thin
| slices are also good. It's obvious what the default is:
| when I was a kid "pizza" meant Giordano's or Eduardo's or
| Lou Malnati's or The Medici, or Unos or Dues, etc. Thin
| crust was called "thin crust." This article uses the same
| convention.
|
| edit: I think there was an exception for Reggio's. Maybe
| we thought of it as "pizza" because it's so dense and
| advertised as a "butter crust."
| wsatb wrote:
| > Midwestern emigrants (who didn't think they were good
| enough for NY, and didn't think they were good looking
| enough for California, so ended up in the second city.)
|
| Or because it's close to home and way more affordable?
| Also, while winter sucks, I'll take a Chicago summer over
| both those places every single year.
|
| I grew up here as well. No one thinks deep dish
| immediately when talking about getting pizza. It feels
| more like a once or twice a year delicacy than anyone's
| go-to pizza.
| rhino369 wrote:
| Tavern pizza is pretty common throughout Chicagoland--
| most non chains specialize in it. But it's not always
| cracker thin.
| PenguinCoder wrote:
| I prefer the thin crust style as well. If I wanted tomato
| soup, I'd have ordered that, not pizza!
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Detroit style doesn't get enough love. I feel like it's the
| perfect balance of pillowy thick but not filling you up.
| Laying stripes of sauce on top gives you a different flavor
| in every bite too.
| manicennui wrote:
| Detroit-style is widely available in Chicago. Fat Chris's
| is decent. The chain Jet's is everywhere too.
| theyak wrote:
| After trying the delicious Detroit style pizza found in
| Costco's frozen food section, I've been wanting to go to
| Detroit to try the real thing. It's my favorite frozen
| pizza.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Check out Kenji's recipe, it is really easy and forgiving
| to make Detroit style at home. Don't worry about getting
| the perfect rectangular steel pan either, a cast iron
| skillet works great. I use regular supermarket cheese too
| instead of ordering the more authentic brick cheese.
| bluedino wrote:
| Currently my favorite pizza style. If you live near a
| Jet's, you should be eating it. Their Stromboli's/boats are
| great too.
| dole wrote:
| I'll second Jet's for Detroit-style, get the 8-corner or
| large deep dish. Tall, crispy edges. Little Caesar's gets
| a pass on their Detroit-style, but Pizza Hut's recent
| take was just disrespectful.
| tptacek wrote:
| Kenji's Detroit-style is my go-to home pizza:
|
| https://www.seriouseats.com/detroit-style-pizza-recipe
|
| (It would be this Chicago recipe, but if you live in
| Chicago you're never more than 20 minutes out from someone
| delivering a better version of it than you can make).
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| That article mentions Pequod's as a Chicago deep dish
| with the kind of burnt cheese crustiness of Detroit
| style. I absolutely agree. If you visit Chicago and think
| you are supposed to try deep dish to complete your
| tourist checklist, go over there - you will not be
| disappointed.
| BuckRogers wrote:
| I live in Chicago and went to that place once. I actually
| wasn't very impressed. If I have to eat deep dish, I will
| go to Lou Malnati's. Otherwise give me a good Midwest
| style thin crust. Something similar to D'Agostino's.
| toomanyrichies wrote:
| Lou Malnati's was my go-to for the year I lived in
| Chicago. God I miss that place.
| mhb wrote:
| Looks like a pretty close facsimile with less effort could be
| made using a tortilla as the crust.
| tptacek wrote:
| Kenji agrees.
|
| https://www.seriouseats.com/extra-crispy-bar-style-
| tortilla-...
| 2f0ja wrote:
| does anyone have a link to the actual recipe? I subscribe to nyt
| but not to the food section
| oidar wrote:
| I love Kenji, his youtube channel and his cookbooks - I wonder if
| he is working on a new pizza cookbook.
| bluedino wrote:
| I was always a huge fan of Serious Eats, but Kenji's head-
| mounted camera setup makes most of his videos unwatchable for
| me.
| ttepasse wrote:
| I do love the POV setup, but I tend to close his videos 30
| seconds early: He closes the videos by tasting the meal,
| understandably, but that means that the (for me disgusting)
| chewing noises are extremely amplified on accord of the
| chewing happening close to the GoPro.
| detourdog wrote:
| Yes, I find the camera work unwatchable. He should use a
| steady cam. I always search the serious eats website first
| when looking for a recipe.
| peeters wrote:
| Dang, that's a bummer to hear! Is it a motion sickness
| thing? I absolutely love his POV videos and find them so
| much more watchable than studio setups, partially just
| because of the intimacy and casualness of them, but also
| because they're more true to the cooking process.
| rmccue wrote:
| He has a kids book about pizza (Every Night is Pizza Night), so
| I suspect he did some serious research for that.
| AndreasHae wrote:
| Reminds me of Flammkuchen:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammekueche
| davidu wrote:
| Anywhere to get this kind of pie in Manhattan?
|
| (also, Kenji is great!)
| chills wrote:
| Emmett's
| indigodaddy wrote:
| One bite everybody knows the rules
| shadowofneptune wrote:
| Anyone who hasn't actually lived in the Great Lakes area might be
| confused by the title. As the article states:
|
| "I'm talking thinner-than-a-saltine thin, with a shatteringly
| crisp crackle and just enough structure to hold its own weight
| against a heavily seasoned sauce and a caramelized layer of
| mozzarella. It's probably topped with hand-torn nubs of sausage,
| maybe a sprinkle of hot giardiniera. Forget the puffy,
| handlebarlike crust of a New York pie: Thin crust has sauce and
| cheese all the way to the edge -- an edge that comes out extra
| crisp with a frizzle of nearly blackened cheese overhanging it."
|
| It's a great side to beer, and a real treat I like to point out
| to visitors.
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.md/TcVQe
|
| http://web.archive.org/web/20230318154112/https://www.nytime...
| throw0101b wrote:
| If you want to explore food science, it's hard to go wrong with
| the OG author, Harold McGee:
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_McGee
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Food_and_Cooking
|
| The fortieth anniversary of his _On Food_ is coming up in 2024.
| MegaDeKay wrote:
| Can't argue that Harold is the OG. It would be nice if he'd
| release a new edition of On Food and Cooking though. But as I
| understand it, it still holds up really well after all this
| time.
|
| Alton Brown is certainly another name I'd add to the mix. Good
| Eats was brilliant, and his I'm Only Here For The Food / More
| Food books are really good.
| wooly_bully wrote:
| I just am about halfway thru. Absolutely stands up, doesnt
| even feel dated almost 20 years after the revised edition.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I actually talked to Harold a couple times when he came to
| Google. He is a very, very nice person; very down-to-earth.
| 6177c40f wrote:
| As a midwest native, I've got to say that this is my favorite
| kind of pizza. And honestly, there's not really any rules as to
| how exactly it's made or what goes on it. Get the crust thin and
| crisp, and put on it whatever toppings make you happy. The key is
| that it's meant to be delicious, not fit a standard mold.
| weaksauce wrote:
| I mean it's basically akin to nachos at this point and who
| doesn't love loaded nachos?
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Native Chicagoan here. Not _totally_ a snob, but getting there.
|
| I didn't usually encounter really crispy crust growing up, but
| I'm not saying it's wrong. He does a lot of things here I've
| never tried, but now I'm going to.
|
| I had an Ooni, and after 5 or 6 meh attempts, I sold it. I also
| exited the r/ooni subreddit. I'm also out of love with the
| Neapolitan style baked at 700F+. Come at me.
|
| I think a pizza steel preheated in a kitchen oven at 500F gives
| you a perfectly good pizza, and the fact that you can slide out
| the oven rack and use gravity to launch the pizza off the peel
| makes it a total win. (On r/ooni, they advise
| turning the heat down or off when you actually launch. I'm going
| to try blowtorching my pizza steel to 700F, just to simulate this
| process. Stay tuned.)
|
| On the intersection with computers: the early Apple people used
| to go for lunch at Cicero's Pizza. It's still around and Steve
| Wozniak still goes there.
| antihero wrote:
| The best way to make pizza better is to drink more.
|
| I've eaten some fantastic artisan sourdough wonders here in
| London but nothing compares to being wasted as fuck and finding
| the one place that's open at some ungodly hour after a heavy
| night of eating fuck all and getting your teeth into some
| greasy monster made of the worst possible ingredients.
| 331c8c71 wrote:
| My impression is that in Europe we quite often tend to go for
| a kebab in such circumstances:)
| dave_sullivan wrote:
| Kebabs are alright but the Europeans need to find out about
| burritos, they don't even know.
| malermeister wrote:
| I've lived in California for almost ten years, had many a
| drunk burrito and missed kebabs every time :(
| omnimus wrote:
| Burritos are too healthy and too filling.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Except in the UK, where it's curry (AFAIK).
| noneeeed wrote:
| Depends if you are going for portability. If you want
| something for the walk home it's got to be a kebab
| really. But if it's the middle of the evening sit down
| meal before getting a taxi home then it might well be a
| curry.
| wirthjason wrote:
| Interesting comment from an interesting username. Antihero, a
| somewhat strong IPA, from Revolution Brewing in Chicago is my
| favorite beer. I've definitely craved pizza after downing one
| too many antiheros.
| chitowneats wrote:
| Well put.
|
| That being said, the Chicago version is still better.
|
| NYC pizza is a bad joke. As long as you're only paying $1
| it's not that bad for the price. That price point and the
| places that offered it are going extinct unfortunately. The
| "slice" is dead.
|
| Imagine having to fold your "pizza" because it's just a nasty
| mess of sauce and cheese.
| quags wrote:
| The secret of course is the best pizza in the NYC area is
| in Northern New Jersey.
| konfusinomicon wrote:
| central jersey does alright too but the best I've had was
| a bar called Mario's in clifton.
| [deleted]
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _the best pizza in the NYC area is in Northern New
| Jersey_
|
| Keep going: the pies around central Jersey are a
| celebration of tomatoes. That said, not a New York slice
| (north shore included.)
| kenjilopezalt wrote:
| It's ironic because those $1 slice places that popped up in
| the mid 2000s are what actually destroyed decent NY slices
| which couldn't compete because transplants and students
| would rather pay $1 for garbage than $1.50-$2.50 for a true
| classic NY slice. Very few of them remain now.
|
| Instead there's this divide with crappy $1 joints (that are
| now a little more expensive) and good $4-5 slice joints
| that had to differentiate themselves. The workingman's NY
| slice might not have long to live.
|
| All that said, it sounds like maybe you've not had good NY
| pizza the way you're describing it. The sauce and cheese
| should not be messy, it should be minimal. The fold is so
| you can walk down the street while eating it in one hand.
| boulos wrote:
| Sadly, I think this is true about a lot of the food in
| Manhattan: the middle got squeezed. There's low end, high
| volume and high-end, low volume. I'm always amazed
| Manhattan can support so many on the low end with the
| economics on the rent, but I think they end up with just
| truly amazing foot traffic and volume that other cities
| can't touch.
| chitowneats wrote:
| Manhattan is an absolute wasteland for authentic, cheap
| food. Queens and Brooklyn are much better. Some of the
| best food in the country there.
| boulos wrote:
| Mostly, I wasn't comfortable saying NYC when people
| mostly mean Manhattan and fancy parts of Brooklyn for
| this comparison :).
| chitowneats wrote:
| Agreed. Manhattan and north Brooklyn are very different
| from the rest of the city.
|
| The Chinese food in Flushing or Sunset Park is
| incredible, for example.
| chitowneats wrote:
| I appreciate the context you're adding here. I lived in
| NYC for the better part of a decade. I feel I got a good
| sampling of the pizza scene. This was in the 2010s though
| so I can't speak to how it was before that.
|
| I still haven't found anything that beats a Lou's pan
| pizza.
| pcl wrote:
| A couple years ago, when I was on a pizza kick, the thing that
| worked best for me was to start cooking the dough on the
| stovetop on a very hot cast iron skillet. I would cook it long
| enough for the dough to start to change color and bubble a bit
| (45-60 seconds), and then make sure it was releasing from the
| pan. Then, I would sprinkle on oil, tomato sauce and toppings
| and move it from the skillet to the preheated stone, and leave
| it under the broiler for another couple minutes.
|
| The initial cook on the pan got the crust going, and so the
| oven time was mostly focused on the toppings.
| Ductapemaster wrote:
| Kenji has a recipe [0] for this method but using a tortilla
| instead of pizza dough. At first glance I was skeptical it
| would be any good, but it's turned out to be a fantastic low-
| effort way to make a "pizza" when you are craving it!
|
| [0] https://www.seriouseats.com/extra-crispy-bar-style-
| tortilla-...
| rootw0rm wrote:
| i use naan bread for "pizza", it's decent
| OJFord wrote:
| I do similar but not particularly purposefully - I always top
| the dough with it already on my (pre-heated) cast iron
| 'stone'. (Otherwise trying to transfer it is a disaster that
| I've been known to pretend was an intentional calzone - I
| don't have a peel.)
|
| I do so as quickly as I can, but of course it starts to cook
| the dough as I do; I've never seen that as a bad thing. If
| there's any holes where it stretched too thin, it holds it
| still allowing you to fix them too.
| rhino369 wrote:
| Most tavern style places in Chicago don't really have a cracker
| crust. Rosatis thin crust (which isn't very good) is the type
| most independent shops sell.
|
| Pats in lake view has great cracker crust.
| vidanay wrote:
| Vito and Nick's has the best crust IMO
| Stratoscope wrote:
| Before Apple, Old Tymers [1] like me went to Cicero's in the
| early 1970s when it was still called Coppola's [2] [3], in its
| original location on Sunnyvale-Saratoga Road before that was
| called De Anza Blvd.
|
| The pizza came on a typical aluminum pan, and you didn't get a
| plate for your slice. You would just put a napkin or two on the
| table. Messy but good!
|
| The Cali Brothers Mill and Feed Store [4] was just around the
| corner on Stevens Creek. It had a drive-thru where you would
| drive inside the building to pick up your farm supplies.
| Different times!
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tymshare
|
| [2] http://www.cicerospizza.com/CicerosMenu.pdf
|
| [3]
| http://www.cicerospizza.com/pub_html/Restaurant%20Cicero's%2...
|
| [4]
| https://historysanjose.pastperfectonline.com/photo/41B3BE66-...
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Shameless self promotion:
|
| Cali and Cicero's both mentioned in my book The Big Bucks.
| chrsstrm wrote:
| I use the oven method with a pizza steel exclusively but the
| recent spike in natural gas costs in SoCal had me cut back
| considerably on making pizzas. I was looking into alternatives
| like the Ooni and the Breville countertop pizza oven, but the
| reviews on the Breville aren't inspiring. Kenji's multi-day
| method for making his thin crusts seems absurd but after
| testing same-day and "cured" crusts, it's worth it.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _the early Apple people used to go for lunch at Cicero 's
| Pizza_
|
| Didn't know! We'd go there after little league and for Boy
| Scouts white elephant, the latter where, without exception,
| someone would pick a gorgeously-wrapped (once spray painted!)
| rock.
| joshu wrote:
| pizza ovens rely on a chain of different skills that all must
| be done well or the pizza comes out poorly. correctly making
| the dough, correctly topping it, getting it to slide off the
| peel correctly, putting it in the right place in the oven,
| rotating it correctly, and probably several things i'm missing.
| it leads to an enormous amount of frustration; i haven't gotten
| something i would consider "good" even once yet.
| kenjilopezalt wrote:
| This thin crust recipe is time consuming but actually solves
| a lot of those problems. Rolling witb a pin and letting it
| dry out overnight actually makes it really easy to slide off
| the peel.
| joshu wrote:
| I will try this but as a native New Yorker I just want to
| get the style I am most comfortable with working first. I
| have never even had the Chicago thin-style pizza, actually.
|
| Someone got me a "super peel" which has a cloth gadget to
| drop the pizza. I wonder if it will work or incinerate.
|
| (PS I am one of the people that matched your donation on
| twitter a few years ago. I miss you there but in retrospect
| leaving was a good idea.)
| yumraj wrote:
| What do you mean by pizza steel?
|
| I'm looking to get a cast iron pizza pan but would love to know
| there's a better option.
| poloniculmov wrote:
| Something like this[1]. It's easier to use than a pizza stone
| and yields better results.
|
| 1: https://bakingsteel.com/products/baking-steel
| yumraj wrote:
| How does it compare with cast iron ones such as:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Lodge-Baking-Pre-Seasoned-Round-
| Handl...
|
| Or
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Lodge-BW15PP-Seasoned-Pizza-
| Black/dp/...
| OJFord wrote:
| Jesus, $120? Does it knead, stretch, and top the dough
| itself too?
|
| Seriously, is it really supposedly that much better than my
| PS15 cast iron 'stone'? (I put a lovely seasoning on it
| initially, but didn't look after it very well and it's all
| cracked and flaking off, so I need to start again really I
| think - I suppose it does save that maintenance work... but
| still, I could just buy a new one and start again _several
| times_ for $120!)
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Yes. Weighs a lot, but it'll never crack like a stone will.
| crimsontech wrote:
| I have one of these and haven't used my pizza oven since.
|
| I turn the oven on as high as it goes and put the steel in
| and prep all the pizza toppings, then I switch the oven to
| the grill mode (or broiler in the US) then make the pizzas.
| It takes about 5 mins per pizza, so it's a bit slower than
| the pizza oven but I can make the next pizza while the
| first is cooking so it's fine.
|
| My family say they prefer this to pizza made in the Ooni, I
| think they are both on par with each other but this is less
| hassle, cheaper than running the Ooni and less stressful
| because things don't catch fire as fast.
| jrexilius wrote:
| Native Chicagoan here as well. When I was growing up we called
| this "party" style pizza, while deep dish was just called
| pizza. After living in Austin for last 8 years, I still
| desperately miss good deep dish pizza, but thin crust is easy
| to find outside of Chicago...
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| What's your opinion of Conan's? That used to be the deep dish
| pizza place in Austin but I haven't eaten there in many
| years.
| karaterobot wrote:
| > I think a pizza steel preheated in a kitchen oven at 500F
| gives you a perfectly good pizza, and the fact that you can
| slide out the oven rack and use gravity to launch the pizza off
| the peel makes it a total win.
|
| For me, the pizza steel is also plenty good compared to the
| portable gas ovens. Some other tricks I use are adding
| diastatic malt powder to the dough, and par-baking the crust
| before adding the toppings, to let the middle get crisp.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Haven't tried either of those. Thanks
| robshrk wrote:
| The one minute par-bake also makes it so much easier and
| stress free to slide a fully loaded pizza onto the stone. I
| don't even use cornmeal just lightly dusted whole wheat flour
| for the raw dough. The par-baked crust needs nothing.
| gnicholas wrote:
| We used to cornmeal lightly but then discovered parchment
| paper. It's super easy to slide off with a spatula
| underneath.
|
| When you par-bake, how long does it take you to then add
| the ingredients? Do you have to rush? Or is it better to
| take a few minutes, so the oven can re-heat itself?
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Semolina's better than cornmeal, but yeah: parbaking or
| parchment paper sounds much better.
| jkubicek wrote:
| I've gotten much better at load the pizza into my pizza
| oven stress-free. I've moved away from cornmeal; it works
| great, but I never liked the gritty texture it gives the
| pizza.
|
| My technique is to use a wooden pizza peel and liberally
| flour it before starting to form the dough-ball into a pie
| shape. I form the pie using my fists, so I have a chance to
| shake the extra flour off the crust before I start putting
| the sauce and toppings on it. I'll also give the peel a
| good shake before I start saucing, just to make sure the
| dough isn't sticking.
|
| Doing all of the above, I haven't accidentally turned a
| pizza into a ripped-up calzone for at least a few years.
| mrmincent wrote:
| As an Aussie I find the American pizza scene so interesting - so
| many regional variations, I'd never heard of this thin style
| crust pizza until I saw Kenji posting on his Insta about it a
| while back. Looking forward to making it sometime.
| adamc wrote:
| I'm from the Chicago area. Thin crust? He's a heretic.
| koromak wrote:
| +1 for Kenji
| onos wrote:
| I, for one, would like to state that I'm not impressed by the
| five month study period.
| duped wrote:
| Ditch the giardiniera and put the sausage under the cheese
| instead of on top, and add a splash of red wine to the sauce and
| you'd have something more in common in the local pizza spots.
| Also can't forget the corn meal to keep the crust from sticking
| to the pan, which is just a part of the experience when you eat
| it.
|
| Personally the crust looks wrong. It's not a saltine, it's
| slightly thicker than that. There are pizza places that do that
| style, but try ordering the pizza from local Italian places and
| pizza spots that aren't "famous" (or for lack of a better way of
| saying it - trying too hard). That ultra crispy style is not the
| norm.
| codemac wrote:
| Yes! Thank you. Banana peppers are about as giardiniera as it
| gets most places.
|
| Though I will debate you on the sausage location.
| tptacek wrote:
| "Ultra-crispy" is definitely the style at Fox's, on the
| southwest side, which I grew up with. And Fox's isn't famous;
| it's just neighborhood Chicago pizza.
|
| Giardiniera is definitely a modern innovation, though; growing
| up, I'd be surprised to see anything other than green peppers
| on a pizza.
| chitowneats wrote:
| Giardineria is the world's most underrated condiment. It
| belongs at the top of list next to kimchi and sauerkraut.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
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