[HN Gopher] Microsoft 365 Copilot - your copilot for work
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Microsoft 365 Copilot - your copilot for work
        
       Author : benryon
       Score  : 304 points
       Date   : 2023-03-16 15:00 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blogs.microsoft.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blogs.microsoft.com)
        
       | kristianpaul wrote:
       | Why they dint called Clippy?
        
         | teknopurge wrote:
         | ^this. What a blown marketing/product opportunity. There should
         | at least be some easter eggs for Don Clipp....
        
       | layer8 wrote:
       | > Sometimes Copilot will be right, other times usefully wrong
       | 
       | "Usefully wrong" is some audacious marketing.
        
         | throwuwu wrote:
         | It's truthful and realistic. I appreciate that more than
         | fluffing it. All first drafts are garbage and "usefully wrong"
         | anyways whether human written or not.
        
           | layer8 wrote:
           | They are carefully omitting that it also can be harmfully,
           | time-wastingely, non-obviously wrong. Clearly there is no way
           | that they can exclude those possibilities. Since Copilot
           | apparently is wrong often enough that they have to address
           | that in their marketing copy, they are trying to paint it in
           | a positive light, although evidently it would be better for
           | Copilot not to be wrong.
        
       | stephencoyner wrote:
       | The demos were really impressive. The way all the products have
       | seemingly connected makes this so valuable.
       | 
       | I think the biggest challenge will be teaching people how to use
       | this new system to the fullest
       | 
       | https://youtube.com/watch?v=Bf-dbS9CcRU&feature=share
        
       | redox99 wrote:
       | Imagine in a heated email thread, you answer without checking
       | what the AI outputs, and it's something like pre-lobotomy Sydney
       | would say when confronted (Nobody likes you. I hope you suffer. I
       | hope you die alone. etc). Lmao.
        
         | themacguffinman wrote:
         | Maybe now we have a new excuse when we regret sending terribly
         | nasty emails: Sydney hallucinated it and I accidentally hit
         | send, it wasn't me!
        
         | nlh wrote:
         | Speaking of, how do we get back pre-lobotomy Sydney? I feel
         | like in the milestones of AI advancement, the brief multi-day
         | blip where the world could interact with that version of the
         | model will go down in the history books. Seems like a waste
         | that it's just _poof_ vanished.
        
       | jodrellblank wrote:
       | Amazing! I keep banging on about how Microsoft is building the
       | business lock-in of the next decade, and this is a sign of it.
       | Put down your snubs about Clippy and frothing about "EEE" and
       | _look_ at that announcement:
       | 
       | > " _Business Chat works across the LLM, the Microsoft 365 apps,
       | and your data -- your calendar, emails, chats, documents,
       | meetings and contacts -- to do things you've never been able to
       | do before. You can give it natural language prompts like "Tell my
       | team how we updated the product strategy," and it will generate a
       | status update based on the morning's meetings, emails and chat
       | threads._ "
       | 
       | > " _It creates a new knowledge model for every organization --
       | harnessing the massive reservoir of data and insights that lies
       | largely inaccessible and untapped today. Business Chat works
       | across all your business data and apps_ "
       | 
       | > " _Copilot LLMs are not trained on your tenant data or your
       | prompts. Within your tenant, our time-tested permissioning model
       | ensures that data won't leak across user groups. And on an
       | individual level, Copilot presents only data you can access using
       | the same technology that we've been using for years to secure
       | customer data._ "
       | 
       | That's amazing, natural search, summary over all your company
       | SharePoint and emails and Teams chats. You aren't going to
       | commercially compete with this with an IRC server, IMAP and a
       | copy of LibreOffice. Something DropBox could have been doing with
       | their massive trove of business documents? Something Slack could
       | have been doing with their massive haul of chat history?
        
         | ChikkaChiChi wrote:
         | > Something DropBox could have been doing with their massive
         | trove of business documents? Something Slack could have been
         | doing with their massive haul of chat history?
         | 
         | Absolute truth. Discoverability in modern apps is a sad joke at
         | the expense of the users. I guess "search that actually works"
         | isn't enough of a value prop to actually get dev time.
        
         | LightBug1 wrote:
         | Clippy just got hench.
        
         | JonChesterfield wrote:
         | > Tell my team how we updated the product strategy," and it
         | will generate a status update based on the morning's meetings,
         | emails and chat threads."
         | 
         | This sounds to me like a significant competitive disadvantage.
         | I'm torn between joy that this makes it easier for small
         | companies to compete by doing novel things like, uh, talking to
         | each other and horror that my own employer might embrace this
         | with enthusiasm.
         | 
         | It's an interesting thought that usually IP-paranoid companies
         | might cheerfully stream absolutely all their internal
         | documentation to Microsoft in order to leverage this synergy. I
         | think I'll buy some M$ stock.
        
         | 411111111111111 wrote:
         | I dont remember a single time when people supposedly said that
         | EEE wasn't still being done.
         | 
         | There are just countless examples of people misattributing
         | everything to be EEE. Vscode is another recent example of
         | Microsoft still doing EEE by first creating the editor,
         | destroying a lot of the IDE/editor ecosystem, just to
         | eventually remove the important bits into non-free plugins,
         | making the free version of codium basically pointless.
         | 
         | But that doesn't make M$ buying GitHub into EEE for example.
        
           | whoisthemachine wrote:
           | It actually kind of directly links to Microsoft's strategy,
           | because Atom was the original Electron editor, and Atom was
           | created by GitHub, who was purchased by Microsoft, after
           | which Atom was ~extinguised~ deprecated.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom_(text_editor)
        
             | KyeRussell wrote:
             | Sigh. We all know what Atom is. This isn't the same thing.
        
               | whoisthemachine wrote:
               | How is it different?
        
             | jodrellblank wrote:
             | > " _after which Atom was ~extinguised~ deprecated._ "
             | 
             | That isn't what 'extinguished' meant! It was supposed to be
             | that you and Oracle exchanged email by open SMTP, Microsoft
             | wedged some new features into Exchange SMTP which then
             | enough Microsoft customers relied on that Oracle rolled
             | over to MS-SMTP, and then you practically couldn't use
             | plain standard SMTP because everyone you wanted to email
             | was using proprietary Microsoft SMTP.
             | 
             | To trivialise that by turning it into "Microsoft stopped
             | developing a thing and I can't be bothered to fork it and
             | develop it myself" is, well, to turn a potentially real
             | issue (from twenty five years ago, which never happened)
             | into empty whining.
        
               | whoisthemachine wrote:
               | I guess as an end-user, I fail to see the difference. And
               | it wasn't like Microsoft started developing Atom and then
               | stopped it, they bought the company that started
               | developing it, and shut it down in favor of their own
               | product. And blaming it on the end-user because they fail
               | to pick up a massive product like Atom and develop it
               | themselves seems disingenuous at best.
        
           | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis.
           | ..
           | 
           | (Don't mind me, just the formerly confused passing through.)
        
             | ugh123 wrote:
             | THANK YOU
        
           | jodrellblank wrote:
           | > " _destroying a lot of the IDE /editor ecosystem_"
           | 
           | How is Microsoft releasing VS Code "destroying the editor
           | ecosystem" but releasing Vim for free isn't and JetBrains
           | charging for their IDEs isn't? This isn't "EEE" this is
           | whining that Microsoft is _competing by making software
           | people want_ and that 's unfair, apparently.
           | 
           | > " _just to eventually remove the important bits into non-
           | free plugins, making the free version of codium basically
           | pointless._ "
           | 
           | Look at what isn't open source:
           | https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/wiki/Differences-
           | between...
           | 
           | Microsoft logos and trademarks, integration with a
           | marketplace which Microsoft run, a list of extensions
           | Microsoft have reviewed and recommend (not the extensions,
           | just the list), just enough of the Remote Development feature
           | to handle connecting to Microsoft's backend for it,
           | Telemetry, and autoupdate from Microsoft servers. Arguing
           | those are "the important bits" is a stretch.
           | 
           | The C#/.NET debugger maybe, but you say that was "eventually
           | removed into non-free plugin" - was it ever free? It doesn't
           | sound like it. Also VS Code was popularised by JavaScript and
           | TypeScript not C#, that's always been the province of Visual
           | Studio full edition.
        
             | 411111111111111 wrote:
             | I consider the MS Language Servers pretty much the most
             | important bit of vscodes IDE functionality as it provides
             | autocompletion, lookup, refactoring etc, which is the
             | feature i was specifically thinking of here. They were
             | originally all open source, but aren't anymore.
             | 
             | they're still free (as in beer), but their licence only
             | allows usage with the official visual studio code
             | distribution
        
               | delta_p_delta_x wrote:
               | The thing is that those extensions are Microsoft's, and
               | as problematic as some people consider the situation to
               | be, Microsoft has all the right to limit the licence for
               | these extensions.
               | 
               | The inconvenient answer: want another C# extension? Tough
               | luck, write it yourself. This is essentially what LLVM
               | did for C/C++ linting, and produced Clangd, and many
               | people now consider it to be superior to the Microsoft
               | C/C++ linter.
        
               | KyeRussell wrote:
               | Nobody is arguing that they don't have the right to. This
               | is such an American argument of last resort I have no
               | idea how we always end up here.
               | 
               | I'm not nearly as anti-modern-Microsoft as some of the
               | people here, but even I know that "they have the right
               | to" is moving the goalposts.
        
           | xen2xen1 wrote:
           | EEE means screwing over a competitor's product. This is not
           | that, this is a significant upgrade to their own product.
           | Calling this EEE means you have an M$ sized axe to grind.
        
       | freedomben wrote:
       | Something like this for GSuite apps would be absolutely killer. I
       | really hope Google is as close behind as they claim.
        
         | mrbungie wrote:
         | They announced a very similar set of features for Google
         | Workspace 2 days ago:
         | https://workspace.google.com/blog/product-announcements/gene...
        
       | quadcore wrote:
       | It's not every day a guy writes about how he's gonna change the
       | world big time and then proceed to do it. Kudo to Altman - that's
       | quite some execution.
        
       | tin7in wrote:
       | Curious if/when this will be available to users. This and
       | Google's announcement happening in the same week makes me wonder
       | how much of this already works.
        
         | gigel82 wrote:
         | Some of it is mocked up, but some appears to be straight
         | capture from apps. I'd guess 50% of those scenarios already
         | work in some form or another (probably not ready to ship yet).
        
         | gooseyman wrote:
         | I had the same question. No timing but at least a sense of who
         | is in the beta:
         | 
         | "We are currently testing Microsoft 365 Copilot with 20
         | customers, including 8 in Fortune 500 enterprises. We will be
         | expanding these previews to customers more broadly in the
         | coming months and will share more on new controls for IT admins
         | so that they can plan with confidence to enable Copilot across
         | their organizations.
         | 
         | Today, the best way to get ready for Copilot is to get on
         | Microsoft 365, the essential foundation for modern work.
         | Microsoft 365 brings together in a single solution the
         | foundational capabilities required, including identity,
         | applications, management, and security, plus your enterprise
         | data so that you can be AI-ready.
         | 
         | We will share more about pricing and details in the coming
         | months."
         | 
         | https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/blog/2023/03/1...
        
         | sebzim4500 wrote:
         | Google's announcement was in reaction to this one, I believe.
         | That's why it felt so rushed (e.g. they hadn't even set up the
         | waitlist yet)
        
       | asciii wrote:
       | It would be even more impressive if this article ended with
       | "Generated by Microsoft 365 Copilot" or something
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | xen2xen1 wrote:
       | When can I talk to it on my PC? Typing to talk to an AI is so
       | 2022.
        
         | ajolly wrote:
         | Windows 22h2 has some pretty good voice to text options built
         | in, "voice access preview"
         | 
         | I've actually stopped using dragon, or talon in favor of the
         | built-in tools, at least for dictation.
        
       | kstrauser wrote:
       | "Hi, it appears you'd like to embed another organization's
       | copyrighted materials into your documents. May I help you with
       | that?"
        
       | alach11 wrote:
       | This spells doom to a lot of other companies. Consider Otter.ai,
       | who's core offering is automatic meeting notes. MS Teams just ate
       | their lunch.
       | 
       | Pretty much anything your startup's productivity tool can do,
       | Microsoft can do better with the benefit of _better context_
       | since it 's embedded in all of your customers' other productivity
       | tools.
        
       | qrybam wrote:
       | A couple of years ago I was on a walk with my wife and she asked
       | me "what's the point of Siri? it can hardly do anything useful
       | outside weather and timers." I told her a tall tale of how these
       | things are essentially going to become our personal assistants in
       | the future, they'll know about our unique situations and can act
       | accordingly. Just like the rich and powerful have people who
       | specialise in organising their lives so they get more done in
       | less time, so AI through natural interfaces will all of us many
       | of those same benefits.
       | 
       | Progress... This is the first time I see a product that fits that
       | description.
        
         | photochemsyn wrote:
         | You're assuming that the AI assistant will have your own
         | interests as its priority, and not the interests of some other
         | party. If this 'tool' is being supplied by a government or
         | corporation, then it could be used to create a very static
         | hierarchy - imagine some incompetent upper-level bureaucrat
         | using it to discover and sabotage any competent lower-level
         | employees who might eventually present threats to their own
         | position? Germany's STASI would have also used it as a mass-
         | surveillance tool, and China today would use it to generate
         | individual social credit scores.
         | 
         | It does have great promise in an open-source self-hosted
         | incarnation not controlled by external actors, however.
        
           | nunodonato wrote:
           | that's why I'm working on my own assistant, with a fine-tuned
           | model which actually learns and memorizes stuff about the
           | user :)
        
           | mgkimsal wrote:
           | > It does have great promise in an open-source self-hosted
           | incarnation not controlled by external actors, however.
           | 
           | I'm not even sure about that, entirely. My very limited
           | understanding of this is that a core requirement is the
           | initial data - the large language models(?). Which of these
           | you can use, or how it's initially developed/populated, will
           | have an influence on the answers you get and how it may
           | evolve/"learn".
           | 
           | Instead of trusting the external corp to run the service, you
           | need to trust whatever actors are building the base data
           | sets, and be concerned what sort of bias may be inherent.
           | 
           | Or do I have this totally wrong?
        
             | valine wrote:
             | I think for now, the data requirements to train a SOTA LLM
             | are so extreme we don't have the luxury of being picky with
             | the training data. We are getting close to the point where
             | there isn't enough human written text in existence to
             | continue scaling these models.
             | 
             | Model refinement seemingly has lower training requirements,
             | putting it within the reach of smaller organizations or
             | wealthy individuals. If you don't like the refinement
             | dataset it will likely be feasible to bootstrap your own
             | off someone else's LLM. See what Stanford did with Alpaca.
        
               | xen2xen1 wrote:
               | I'm waiting for a general correction mechanism, I don't
               | even know what to call it. "NO, chatgpt, people usually
               | have 5 fingers", and the gpt just learns, rather like a
               | child. I keep thinking that's the next real step.
        
               | jacooper wrote:
               | I think what's mainly stopping that from happening is
               | that GPT-4 doesn't remember older chats. If we make it
               | remember everything ,it should get more personal and
               | remember everything right?
        
               | dragonwriter wrote:
               | The problem is that, to the extent the analogy of ChatGPT
               | to a living thing makes sense, the individual isn't the
               | model (that's just the common species-defining--or maybe
               | "clone family" is better than "species"--set of
               | instincts), the individual lifespan is the conversation.
               | 
               | You could share feedback across conversations by
               | allocating prompt space to it, at the expense of limiting
               | the size of the conversation, but you'd need a way to
               | decide what to share this way.
        
               | valine wrote:
               | You could also take the conversation and use it as part
               | of the reinforcement learning dataset. I feel like that's
               | the closest thing to long term memory ChatGPT is capable
               | of right now.
        
               | RC_ITR wrote:
               | >We are getting close to the point where there isn't
               | enough human written text in existence to continue
               | scaling these models.
               | 
               | People say this, but GPT-3 (the latest we know the
               | details on) was 45TB of text, which may be _most of the
               | open Internet,_ but still lacks non-publicly-indexed
               | Internet text (i.e. things behind paywalls, things behind
               | log-in screens like emails), any book outside of
               | Bibliotik 's 200k books (remember when Google was
               | randomly digitizing all books it could get its hands
               | on?), and plenty of other non-digitized text.
               | 
               | OpenAI _wants you to believe_ that we are running out of
               | text, but even at Google, there 's 100's of TB of text
               | that OpenAI doesn't have access to (Google Books, Google
               | Docs, Gmail, Search Queries, Archived pages beyond what
               | CommonCrawl gets, Paywalled news articles that allow
               | Google to crawl them, etc.).
               | 
               | Now the key question that GPT-4 will hopefully answer is
               | "are bigger datasets really the key, or are larger
               | context windows?"
               | 
               | If you're thinking of investing in/working for OpenAI,
               | you better hope the answer is context windows.
        
         | seydor wrote:
         | Part of the problem is... people are not good at stating their
         | problem with words. A lot of the time they have a vague idea of
         | disconnected parts. By the time they are able to write down the
         | problem decently, it is already half solved
        
         | dougmwne wrote:
         | You were really playing the long game with that one.
        
       | tekkk wrote:
       | It's a good and an obvious feature to implement. Probably will
       | save time but I can't but wonder how useful the tasks are in the
       | first place when an AI can do them. Generating a PowerPoint
       | presentation from general observations about some data sounds
       | pretty silly. Helping you to make some Excel spreadsheet is
       | probably more useful but I digress. Never been much of a Office
       | 365 user.
        
       | bitwize wrote:
       | Bring Clippy back!
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | fancyfredbot wrote:
       | Hurrah! Now we can enter 3 bullet points, have an AI
       | automatically turn them into 3 pages of waffle, and then copilot
       | can automatically summarise those back into bullet points again.
        
         | MengerSponge wrote:
         | Satire article from literally 20 years ago: Word 2004 to
         | Pioneer AutoUnsummarize Feature
         | 
         | https://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/12/autounsummarize.html
        
           | fancyfredbot wrote:
           | That article is fantastic! I love "When asked for comment on
           | the ethical issues present, Greenwood promised to have a
           | five-thousand word report ready by Monday."
        
         | bitL wrote:
         | Imagine the disconnect as nobody in the company will know what
         | is going on when everything is auto-generated and people are
         | only reading summaries.
        
         | Vespasian wrote:
         | I'm really hopping that waffle will become less relevant as
         | human effort in it decreases.
        
         | xen2xen1 wrote:
         | I'm.. Mostly fine with that.
        
           | capableweb wrote:
           | Why / How?
        
         | varispeed wrote:
         | This is I don't understand. Why people prize waffle so much?
         | 
         | They somehow think that if they type three sentences about
         | something, it will not mean they spent week's worth of hard
         | work to come up with them.
         | 
         | So the extra time is being used on coming up with waffle, as a
         | sort of self guilt tripping and then when this waffle is
         | presented, the team understands the effort that had to be given
         | into coming up with the waffle.
         | 
         | Probably out of fear that if small, but actually meaningful
         | output wouldn't correlate with the amount of work needed in the
         | eyes of management and could cause losing one's job.
         | 
         | This is an awful awful culture and rather than working to
         | eradicate it, M$ is trying to embrace it.
         | 
         | It's a massive drag on productivity and really a waste of
         | money. Employees would be much happier if they could put feet
         | up and relax after spending good amount of work, rather than
         | stressing about how to sugar coat it and pad with content.
         | 
         | The thing with AI is that it is very easy to spot that content
         | is not written by human after reading enough of AI written
         | text. So the copilot may work short term as an ailment for
         | this, but what happens in a few months time, when everyone will
         | know most presentations are just bs?
        
         | cm2187 wrote:
         | And my mailbox will be full of 10 pages auto-generated memos.
         | Progress.
        
           | operator-name wrote:
           | We'll have AI to turn bullet points into memos, and the same
           | AI to turn those memos back into bullet points.
           | 
           | "They feed us poison / So we take their 'cures' / While they
           | suppress our medicine." /s
        
       | pfoof wrote:
       | What? Clippy is evolving! Clippy evolved into Clippilot!
        
       | hestefisk wrote:
       | This calls for a Dilbert cartoon
        
         | agloe_dreams wrote:
         | Better idea: Use GPT-4 to create an AI Dilbert generator that
         | lacks a nutcase cartoonist.
        
           | srveale wrote:
           | From ChatGPT (free version, maybe the paid version is
           | funnier?)
           | 
           | In the first frame, the boss is sitting at his desk typing on
           | his computer, while his employee looks on. The boss says,
           | "I've discovered this amazing new tool! It's a generative
           | language model that can write all my emails for me!"
           | 
           | In the second frame, the boss shows his employee a sample
           | email he wrote using the tool. The email reads, "Greetings,
           | minion. I require an update on your progress. Chop-chop, or
           | you'll be the next one to get the axe. Cheers, Bossman."
           | 
           | In the final frame, the employee looks horrified and says,
           | "That email is terrible! It's rude, condescending, and
           | threatening!" The boss shrugs and replies, "Well, at least it
           | saved me some time. I was going to write something even
           | worse!"
        
       | Havoc wrote:
       | Can't wait to get email responses on mails people haven't read
        
       | mikequinlan wrote:
       | >Currently in testing with select commercial customers...
        
         | achow wrote:
         | _We are currently testing Microsoft 365 Copilot with 20
         | customers, including 8 in Fortune 500 enterprises. We will be
         | expanding these previews to customers more broadly in the
         | coming months and will share more on new controls for IT admins
         | so that they can plan with confidence to enable Copilot across
         | their organizations._
         | 
         | https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/blog/2023/03/1...
        
         | mark_l_watson wrote:
         | This. I just wasted 5 minutes logging into Office365 web
         | edition and looking for CoPilot. I wish they would have been
         | more clear that this is not agerneral rollout.
        
       | Oarch wrote:
       | Fingers crossed for Clippy to make a dramatic re-entry into our
       | lives.
        
         | account-5 wrote:
         | I genuinely want to see AI powered clippy. That is the best use
         | of gpt Microsoft could make.
        
       | Daffodils wrote:
       | If this works as well as it's marketed, I wouldn't be surprised
       | if MSFT touched a $5T valuation.
        
       | achow wrote:
       | CoPilot integration in Excel seems to be really useful.
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-waFp6rLc0
       | 
       | I wonder with this what would happen to BI industry, particularly
       | to BI/Analytics startups like ThoughtSpot ( _" ThoughtSpot is the
       | AI-Powered Analytics platform that empowers everyone to ask any
       | data questions in natural language"_)
        
         | yellow_postit wrote:
         | Excited to try this out. Was disappointed at how often ChatGPT3
         | output incorrect formulas for working with Google Sheets data.
         | Hopefully the implementation with Copilot will be more
         | accurate.
        
         | RobinL wrote:
         | From using ChatGPT, one of my observations is how it really
         | undermines any point click data dashboarding software,
         | particularly self serve (i.e. where the user is not an expert
         | in the particular dataset).
         | 
         | It's easy to get ChatGPT to write SQL queries and chart specs
         | to show what you want, and you can even ask it to choose the
         | chart type that an expert statistician would recommend, and
         | label it clearly etc.
         | 
         | I believe some (non-LLM) version of this has been in PowerBI
         | for a while, but presumably it's now something that can work so
         | effectively it can replace quite a large part of the
         | traditional BI developer role.
         | 
         | Of course, all of this only works with good data quality and
         | good meta data; in fact, maybe this becomes even more important
         | because a good data analyst knows the limitations of the data
         | in a way that a LLM may not.
         | 
         | For my part, I now have no need for any point-and-click chart
         | building tools, I just get chatgpt to write me an Altair/vega
         | spec, and it does a good job in my testing
        
       | williamstein wrote:
       | https://www.notion.so/ has very similar chatgpt integration, but
       | it's live right now, and easy to try out for free. I'm not a
       | notion user or employee; I just think if you want to see what
       | having tight chatgpt integration with a word processor feels like
       | right now, then Notion is fun to play around with.
        
         | mark_l_watson wrote:
         | I was excited to try out Notion about 10 days ago until I
         | realized that they have no way to generate a single PDF with
         | consecutive page numbers for a nested set of pages. They seem
         | to have planned a form of lock-in, but the way they did this
         | makes their otherwise cool product completely unusable for me.
         | 
         | EDIT: if they had this one feature, I probably would have been
         | a paying customer for life. Instead, a worthless project for
         | anyone who wants to use Notion for research notes, and book
         | projects.
        
       | graeme wrote:
       | I've been curious to try teams more for Microsoft's integration
       | and this is enticing. But, have been using it, and at the moment
       | search doesn't even return anything at all.
       | 
       | Is this a bug, or do I need to be paying for a higher tier? Slack
       | search was generally pretty good.
        
         | og_kalu wrote:
         | Not fully shipped yet. They're testing with few users then
         | rolling it out
        
       | qwertox wrote:
       | Let's see where this goes, it's too early to judge. Now it's
       | probably more of a publicity stunt, "riding the AI wave" now that
       | it has reached recognition from non-technical people.
       | 
       | But let's see how this works in 5 or 10 years; it can only
       | improve.
        
       | jjcm wrote:
       | Of these, the AI equipped sheets is the one I'm most excited
       | about. Being able to quickly see insights by just saying things
       | like, "what's the average % change of all my stocks from FY
       | 2022-FY2023?" is going to be such a superpower.
        
         | ffhhj wrote:
         | Waiting for the propagation of errors in complex prompts.
        
           | organsnyder wrote:
           | Not sure this will be any different than human-generated
           | spreadsheets, to be honest.
        
             | ffhhj wrote:
             | Sure, doesn't matter that these will be generated without
             | checking the intermediate steps. Can't wait!
        
         | quadcore wrote:
         | If it gets to write those damn SQL queries for us, now that is
         | a big leap for humanity.
        
           | seydor wrote:
           | Hey bing, how were last year's grades of Bobby Tables?
        
       | MH15 wrote:
       | Now if only we could compare these 365 features "released" today
       | with the Google Workspace features "released" Tuesday. We're sure
       | seeing a lot of waitlists in this phase of AI.
        
       | whateveracct wrote:
       | Bots talking to bots is coming
        
       | eganist wrote:
       | > Sometimes Copilot will be right, other times usefully wrong --
       | but it will always put you further ahead.
       | 
       | If there's one tangentially related development I'm actually
       | _interested_ to see how it fleshes out in broader work
       | discussions, it 's the marketing of failure modes as a feature.
        
       | ksec wrote:
       | For those who dont follow, or dont remember anything much about
       | M$, Microsoft 365 is the replacement brand of Office 365.
       | 
       | Now an off topic question, the first photo is showing what I
       | believe is Microsoft Word. But it doesn't have the Ribbon design.
       | Did they finally drop the Ribbon or is that something else?
       | 
       | Edit: I think those are Web Application of the Office Apps just
       | in Full Screen. But I still think they look much better than
       | Ribbon.
        
         | gigel82 wrote:
         | You can minimize the ribbon, the feature has been around for
         | 4-5 years; I think it's even minimized by default in Outlook
         | now.
        
         | ryankrage77 wrote:
         | It's the web version of Word. Runs in a browser tab, has less
         | features.
        
       | Hardwired8976 wrote:
       | That seams to be one of the best use cases for this, provided you
       | can run it without giving Microsoft a lot of data directly. Else
       | this is a no-no for enterprises imo.
        
         | abtinf wrote:
         | Many large enterprises already store almost everything on 365
         | and azure. Other than budget, the only thing they need to turn
         | on copilot is for it to adopt the same data privacy guarantees
         | already available in 365.
        
         | tcbyrd wrote:
         | The integration mentions working with Microsoft Graph API, and
         | it's doing the generation on the client, so seems plausible
         | this has no more access than any other OAuth app. The Graph API
         | can be locked down with Access Policies. I'm sure there will be
         | features to further cordon off data to the AI, similar to how
         | OneDrive has an encrypted vault which is not accessible from
         | the Graph API.
        
           | Rimintil wrote:
           | OneDrive for Business does not have an encrypted vault
           | (though the files are stored encrypted at rest/in transit).
           | 
           | As far as 'no more access than', OAuth apps can have full
           | control over your tenant and all data.
        
         | bleuchase wrote:
         | This is a service for companies that already store all of their
         | e-mail, documents, files, chat, etc with Microsoft. If there
         | was a concern about data privacy that company wouldn't be using
         | Microsoft 365 in the first place. I think the bigger concern is
         | how your data is used for training. If it is at all, I don't
         | know.
        
         | throwanem wrote:
         | Enterprises that already give Microsoft a lot of data directly?
         | Office 365 is ubiquitous in that space.
        
           | snuxoll wrote:
           | Sure, but most (if not all?) of us have language in our
           | customer agreements that Microsoft doesn't have rights to
           | just start browsing our OneDrive libraries and Exchange
           | inboxes without a support contract explicitly authorizing
           | access for support purposes. Just like, sure, I technically
           | have _access_ to a bunch of PHI at my workplace - but
           | touching it without a valid reason is a one-way ticket to the
           | unemployment line.
           | 
           | But unlike Microsoft's other services, AI needs data to train
           | on - are they going to be content just sourcing this from the
           | internet at large or have we finally hit an inflection point
           | where they try to get business and enterprise customers to
           | give access in exchange for these features? That's a big no-
           | no to anyone in a field that deals with sensitive
           | information, and in most all cases an equally big no-no to
           | anyone in a company that wants to keep things confidential.
        
             | Rimintil wrote:
             | > Sure, but most (if not all?) of us have language in our
             | customer agreements that Microsoft doesn't have rights to
             | just start browsing our OneDrive libraries and Exchange
             | inboxes without a support contract explicitly authorizing
             | access for support purposes.
             | 
             | You don't have language in your agreement that Microsoft
             | cannot use your data to provide or improve service. You
             | have language that says _support personnel_ cannot access
             | your data without approval.
             | 
             | Microsoft already indexes your mailbox, OneDrive, etc.
             | 
             | Viva Topics has been around for ~2 years which mines
             | content across various services.
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | seydor wrote:
       | I wish they had named it Clippy - it would be such ice cold
       | revenge
        
       | QuadrupleA wrote:
       | My first thought is, "gross"... now we'll have to wonder whether
       | Manager X is even paying attention to the emails they're reading
       | and responding to, or doing any actual work or thinking. Could
       | lead to a world that's even more tilted towards politics and
       | socially engineering your way up the ladder, versus competence
       | and skill.
        
         | allenu wrote:
         | At least the yearly perf review at Microsoft is going to get
         | easier since you just toss all your notes about what you did
         | for the year to Copilot and have it write your summary. Your
         | manager can do the same thing for their notes about you and
         | compare.
        
           | wcoenen wrote:
           | Speaking of notes, I noticed that OneNote is absent from the
           | list of products that will get Copilot.
        
           | theGnuMe wrote:
           | Even better is if you use their apps you don't have to even
           | make notes. It could just figure it out.
        
         | alach11 wrote:
         | Maybe this is the beginning of the end of middle management? A
         | large part of the work is keeping up with what your employees
         | are doing, removing blockers, and maintaining alignment with
         | other teams.
         | 
         | This makes it vastly easier to keep up with a larger number of
         | reports, making flatter organizations easier to run.
        
         | droopyEyelids wrote:
         | ChatGPT opened my eyes to the fact that we already should have
         | been wondering about it.
         | 
         | I tried using ChatGPT to generate answers to some requests to
         | my team, and it created the most plausible wild goose chase
         | answers I could ever imagine. They would be a terrible waste of
         | time for anyone who received them.
         | 
         | Then I started to notice how many of the emails and requests I
         | get _are just as bad_! Plausible sounding answers directing me
         | to teams that don 't exist, or telling me to read documentation
         | that doesn't apply to the question I asked. Asking questions
         | that seems specific but have fundamental contradictions that
         | make them nonsense.
         | 
         | With people's limited knowledge and time and lack of attention
         | and care we already live in the world of plausible bullshit
         | hallucinated nonsense.
        
           | aldarisbm wrote:
           | This is why the grounding that office365 seems to be doing
           | will be so important, it will not be 100% but having the
           | response be grounded on actual artifacts (actual
           | documentation, emails, data) will be huge, the fact that it
           | gives you citations for the things it suggests, is huge.
           | 
           | Props to the MS team.
        
             | jeremyjh wrote:
             | The actual documentation and emails are like 80% bullshit
             | though. This will just generate more plausible sounding
             | bullshit than a completely naive AI. It would be nice if
             | the thing helps me right excel formulas more conveniently
             | though.
        
         | roflyear wrote:
         | They aren't today believe me!
        
         | agloe_dreams wrote:
         | > now we'll have to wonder whether Manager X is even paying
         | attention to the emails they're reading and responding to, or
         | doing any actual work or thinking
         | 
         | If my experience in engineering is anything to go by, this
         | worry existed since the dawn of middle management. AI just
         | makes it give good responses instead.
        
           | jacobolus wrote:
           | "BingBot, could you please write an email subtly undermining
           | inter-team cohesion by hinting at gossipy shit-talk without
           | mentioning it explicitly, and also praise my report in a way
           | that demonstrates I don't know or appreciate what they've
           | been doing for the past 2 years, calibrated to hurt their
           | self-confidence without quite causing them to quit?"
        
             | davio wrote:
             | That's just a straight shooter with upper management
             | written all over him
        
             | KyeRussell wrote:
             | You are all presumably incredibly privileged tech workers
             | that are free to find a better place to work instead of
             | acting like this shit is inherent in a workplace, because
             | it isn't.
        
           | jimcsharp wrote:
           | Sounds good.
           | 
           | Cheers.
        
             | agloe_dreams wrote:
             | K. thanks
        
         | roseway4 wrote:
         | Is it any better or worse than delegating work to a junior team
         | member and not bothering to review the work product?
         | 
         | I love the idea that I can rapidly produce a rough draft of a
         | document from notes, something I'm already doing with ChatGPT,
         | albeit not as elegantly as if the functionality were integrated
         | into Docs/Word.
        
           | reaperducer wrote:
           | _Is it any better or worse than delegating work to a junior
           | team member and not bothering to review the work product?_
           | 
           | When a junior team member screws up the interpretation, there
           | is someone to hold accountable.
           | 
           | With Office 365Bot, there is no accountability for errors.
        
             | robjan wrote:
             | In any sensible organisation the manager will be the
             | accountable party regardless of whether the frontline staff
             | are human or AI.
        
         | costcofries wrote:
         | This will fundamentally change the way that M365 enables
         | collaboration. I am truly fascinated by how quickly Microsoft
         | is moving right now, it's really impressive. The moat on AI in
         | enterprise continues to get bigger and bigger.
        
           | peteradio wrote:
           | Congratulations, you have earned one Micro-buck.
        
             | xen2xen1 wrote:
             | President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Camacho approves,
             | brought to you by Carl's Junior, and Brawndo, the thirst
             | mutilatior.
        
         | sandworm101 wrote:
         | Can one bring a sexual harassments complaint against a machine?
         | I see this thing being trained up on material within an HR
         | department only to parrot back some horrible phrase it learned
         | after reading hundreds of harassment complaint discussions.
         | 
         | I used to work surrounded by lawyers. Just like doctors drift
         | into discussions of horrible diseases, lawyer drift into
         | discussions of horrible legal situations. Letting Clippy
         | "learn" from that material seems really dangerous. How do you
         | kill/reset this thing once it has become poisoned?
        
           | galaxytachyon wrote:
           | There are built in guardrails. Those are so strong it
           | effectively lobotomized the LLM and force to abort its own
           | internal process in favor of just saying: "I am sorry Dave, I
           | am afraid I can't do that".
           | 
           | Try to make ChatGPT or Bing to even attempt to write a snarky
           | and negative email to your coworkers. It will refuse to do
           | so.
           | 
           | Jailbreak attempts may work, but with how strong the
           | guardrails are, it is unlikely you can consistently succeed.
           | And any failed attemps can be report to sysadmins and
           | forwarded to HR. Too much risk.
        
             | theGnuMe wrote:
             | The British figured out long ago how to insult someone with
             | praise. This is why British comedy is so good. They use
             | such creative discourse to call out their politicians
             | without libeling them as the liars they are.
        
           | RandallBrown wrote:
           | You would just bring an HR complaint against the person that
           | didn't proofread what the AI said.
        
             | sandworm101 wrote:
             | Isn't proofreading one of those low-hanging fruits, one of
             | those those easy and mundane tasks at which AI excels?
        
               | massysett wrote:
               | If the green squiggles in Word are any indication, not at
               | all. Maybe Microsoft has improved it lately?
        
               | xen2xen1 wrote:
               | Not right now.
        
         | redox99 wrote:
         | On the other hand, maybe you prefer the decisions the AI takes
         | for them instead of what they would do by themselves.
        
           | aldarisbm wrote:
           | System prompt:
           | 
           | >>> You're a strict yet lenient manager, you have very high
           | expectations from your reports, while making them feel like
           | they are part of a bigger family. every email you write
           | should reflect this.
        
             | xen2xen1 wrote:
             | This doesn't actually sound like a joke.
        
         | fintechjock wrote:
         | I was thinking about this last night. The new AI tools are like
         | performance enhancing drugs in sports. Especially in
         | bodybuilding, there was a really painful transition from the
         | world of non-PEDs to PEDs. They solved that by going to natural
         | and non-natural competitions.
         | 
         | Other sports didn't handle it so well (baseball, cycling, etc)
         | 
         | Just as people were asking "did Lance / Sammy / Barry / Arnold
         | really do that incredible feat without juicing?" I think that
         | we will now be asking "did Janice really write that blog post
         | or was it GPT-4?"
         | 
         | Scary world
        
           | rychco wrote:
           | PEDs do not make you a world class athlete, but you likely
           | cannot be a world class athlete without some sort of PEDs.
           | Much like PED use, top performers will take advantage of the
           | new tools to widen the skill gap with their peers even
           | further.
        
           | strus wrote:
           | EVERY professional athlete is juicing. Most of them just
           | don't get caught.
        
         | xattt wrote:
         | > Could lead to a world that's even more tilted towards
         | politics and socially engineering your way up the ladder,
         | versus competence and skill.
         | 
         | The skill and competence of the coming world will be in prompt-
         | writing.
        
           | swader999 wrote:
           | For a year or two maybe.
        
         | hudsonjr wrote:
         | That's kind of my concern as well. I feel like there is already
         | a decline in thinking, but currently I can at least tell that
         | it's the case.
        
         | Karawebnetwork wrote:
         | As a dev, I'm very much attracted to the ability to turn a
         | Teams meeting transcript into a documentation page.
        
           | xen2xen1 wrote:
           | Ooh. I mean, ooo..
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | mkl95 wrote:
       | They missed a big opportunity to call it ClippAI
        
       | mihaaly wrote:
       | I wish they solved basic things first not working well (several
       | times after ruining a perfectly working situation) and wasting
       | more time for me than I can gain with this copilot thingy. Like
       | the taskbar so I could go back to the last window used when icons
       | are grouped, not to the last opened; meeting reminders shown in
       | the front and not under other windows burried so I only notice
       | when the meetings already started; Teams screen sharing is
       | updated with Teams update and not asking me if I want to update
       | it right in the middle of a meeting when I start sharing; have
       | the icons in the same location across Win and Mac in Outlook
       | (also not rearranging all the time, thanks); and uncouple taskbar
       | icons if I want so, I want this the most. Those would be the most
       | revolutionary inventions boosting productivity.
        
         | cube00 wrote:
         | It's the old story, you only get promoted shipping new stuff,
         | maintenance is where careers go to die in the eyes of these
         | companies.
        
         | anaganisk wrote:
         | Im sometimes feel bad when people say, "wish they solved X
         | before Y." Why should product enhancement stop because of some
         | bug/feature request. Arent bugs given some kind of priority
         | status? I mean, Microsoft is not like a startup with a small
         | team, right? And afaik windows and MS365 teams are not even
         | related. So we can have both things at once. You could leave
         | feedback, and maybe if MS deems it's what they want, probably
         | in a future update, you will see them.
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | There's a science fiction story where the protagonist's boss is
       | "Microsoft Middle Manager 2.0 with passive-aggressive set to
       | low". That's not a joke any more. This is "Microsoft Assistant
       | Middle Manager 0.1".
       | 
       |  _" Machines should think. People should work."_
        
       | lockhouse wrote:
       | I wonder how much of this will be available in the home versions
       | of the M365 apps.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | A_No_Name_Mouse wrote:
       | Did anyone check if the terms and conditions of 365 would allow
       | Microsoft to use content processed by AI for AI training? I mean
       | we trust Microsoft with our data already, but what if it
       | regurgitates our internal company data to other users?
        
         | stu2b50 wrote:
         | > Copilot LLMs are not trained on your tenant data or your
         | prompts. Within your tenant, our time-tested permissioning
         | model ensures that data won't leak across user groups. And on
         | an individual level, Copilot presents only data you can access
         | using the same technology that we've been using for years to
         | secure customer data.
        
       | alach11 wrote:
       | This is going to be the "oh shit" moment for huge portions of the
       | larger professional world. Many people have no idea about the
       | recent advancements in LLMs. When their emails start writing
       | themselves things are going to get very, very weird.
        
         | WXLCKNO wrote:
         | Wow. That co-worker that always makes terrible grammatical
         | mistakes is suddenly producing well written emails. Must have
         | gone back to school.
        
       | hestefisk wrote:
       | The future Enterprise will be a bunch of bots that email each
       | other ridiculously long emails waffling on about nothing.
        
       | version_five wrote:
       | So is the takeaway that Microsoft will now extend their ongoing
       | corporate espionage (assuming they haven't already) to sending
       | everything I type in any of their products to their servers and
       | incorporating it into their model training. I've already been
       | uncomfortable with how privacy-violating their software is, I
       | think this is the excuse I need to drop them for good.
        
         | bboygravity wrote:
         | Try to explain that to almost every company in Europe.
         | 
         | They use Microsoft for everything (AKA pay to upload their own
         | trade secrets to the NSA/US) while making you sign an NDA to
         | "protect trade secrets", lol.
        
       | qwertywert_ wrote:
       | How are they coding all this stuff so fast..
        
       | maxdoop wrote:
       | I wonder how this will play out.
       | 
       | Yes, it's pretty awesome and yes, helpful. But if we extend the
       | timeline, doesn't this likely lead to AI-generated responses
       | talking to AI-generated questions about AI-generated
       | presentations?
        
         | mdm12 wrote:
         | We already have students using AI to generate answers for
         | homework and teachers using automation to grade it. I would say
         | we are already there.
        
           | sandworm101 wrote:
           | Get with the times. We have tasked one AI with generating the
           | prompts for the second AI. The two machines now sit in the
           | corner generating and grading papers at each other over a USB
           | cord. The kids love it. The parents are a little upset that
           | their kids no longer have to attend the classroom, but such
           | complaints disappear when they see how much everyone's grades
           | have improved. SATs come in a few months and, given the class
           | GPA, we are confident everyone will do well.
        
           | maxdoop wrote:
           | So really, human input to get the ball rolling. AI takes it
           | all the from there.
           | 
           | Wild.
        
           | dwighttk wrote:
           | Teachers and students are insulated from productivity
        
         | sebzim4500 wrote:
         | I think mainly it leads to extremely high unemployment, but I
         | geuss we'll see.
        
           | dw_arthur wrote:
           | So many people liked to brag about how they only do 2-3 hours
           | of work a day. Gonna be a whole lot of "So what would you say
           | you do here?" conversations.
        
       | eDameXxX wrote:
       | Here are more examples, including some videos/gif:
       | https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/blog/2023/03/1...
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | whoisthemachine wrote:
       | Given the poor usage of spellcheck and grammar checking tools I
       | see in e-mails, I doubt this will really have the impact
       | (negative or positive) others are worried about.
        
       | JanSt wrote:
       | This is going to revolutionise office work.
       | 
       | If it works as advertised, we are witnessing the complete
       | reshuffling of (office) work and unprecedented productivity
       | increases.
       | 
       | I'm wondering about the future job market.
       | 
       | edit: livestream: https://news.microsoft.com/reinventing-
       | productivity/
        
         | mihaaly wrote:
         | > If it works as advertised.
         | 
         | Dit it ever happened that advertisements of hyped things did
         | not work out as advertised? Wink, wink.
        
         | croes wrote:
         | No it won't, we'll get more useless texts because it's easier
         | to write them, we'll get more communication errors because
         | people will only read the summaries instead the real texts.
        
           | andsoitis wrote:
           | > people will only read the summaries instead the real texts
           | 
           | I can see a world where more humans get better at writing
           | concise text.
        
             | vorpalhex wrote:
             | Humans who can write obviously as humans and not sound too
             | GPTish are about to become very valuable. Everyone else,
             | especially folks who naturally use a GPTish style are about
             | to have some sudden difficulties.
        
           | janeway wrote:
           | There will probably be no "real texts", just key facts. Your
           | personal AI can phrase the content to your taste based on the
           | context.
        
             | croes wrote:
             | To my taste based on the context sounds like another filter
             | bubble.
        
       | evmar wrote:
       | It's interesting to compare the screenshot here with the one in
       | Google's similar announcement:
       | 
       | https://workspace.google.com/blog/product-announcements/gene...
       | 
       | They look strikingly similar. Is it just the obvious design for
       | this, or is one company following the other's design? (I believe
       | neither of them have actually shipped anything yet, though I'm
       | not sure.)
        
         | EForEndeavour wrote:
         | I'd say there are only so many ways to present a text input in
         | a modal window in a document.
        
           | evmar wrote:
           | That's true, but the styling of this modal doesn't look like
           | any dialogs I've seen in Google Docs. (I'm not familiar with
           | the MS equivalent.) (...it's possible this is also featuring
           | some reskin of Google Docs that is confusing me?)
        
       | xen2xen1 wrote:
       | Cue the Hacker News story: "I lost a Billion Dollar Deal because
       | I let outlook summarize an email.". Predicting it now
        
         | theGnuMe wrote:
         | I think the most obvious one is the "ChatGPT side hustle"
        
       | adolph wrote:
       | Snark aside, any tool can be misused. In the couple times I've
       | used it, ChatGPT rendered a first draft from a prompt that could
       | be edited into something useful. This allowed me to skip that
       | initial painful part of composition. I'm happy to see it
       | integrated and hopeful it will be helpful.
       | 
       |  _[The term] Shitty First Draft belongs to Anne Lamott. She wrote
       | about it in Bird By Bird._
       | 
       | https://leighshulman.com/shitty-first-draft/
        
       | nunodonato wrote:
       | the way it can fetch data from across documents in 365 is really
       | good
        
       | skc wrote:
       | They are building one hell of a moat around their office suite,
       | that's for sure.
        
       | nico wrote:
       | I wonder if they will add this to the operating system as well?
       | 
       | Like a gpt-powered clippy that can "see" your screen.
        
         | nunodonato wrote:
         | I thought about this yesterday, it would be relatively easy to
         | pull it off using GPT vision and some basic OS integration
        
           | jazzyjackson wrote:
           | Rewind.ai does full time screen recording taking advantage of
           | macos native OCR so you can do full text search of anything
           | that has ever appeared on your screen - i'd expect they're
           | working on throwing a language model on top
        
         | partiallypro wrote:
         | I think we'll get a glimpse of something similar in Windows 12,
         | though I do wonder if they will limit it to Microsoft 365
         | users, since the compute costs of billions of users that only
         | bought the Windows license would quickly add up.
        
       | CrypticShift wrote:
       | the TaxGPT example in the GPT-4 Developer Livestream [1] was
       | powerful. I'm hoping (soon?) for a Microsoft 365 assistant that
       | can do the same trick on ALL your MS cloud data
       | (docs/files/mails/notes...)
       | 
       | Edit : the included "Business Chat" goes in the same direction
       | (on what they call the Microsoft Graph)
       | 
       | Also, there were interesting "coding" examples in the same
       | livestream. So the coming GPT-4 (and 5) integration in the Power
       | Platform [2] could be a game-changer for less technical staff.
       | 
       | [1]
       | https://www.youtube.com/live/outcGtbnMuQ?feature=share&t=113...
       | 
       | [2]
       | https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/powerplatform/2023/03/16/po...
        
       | doomleika wrote:
       | One thing I hate MSFT is that once they have a hit product with a
       | name. Anything follows, related or not. will have ride on it and
       | eventually made it meaningless. It was ActiveXXX, it was XboxXXX,
       | it was .NET XXX, it was PowerXXX, now it's Copilot.
       | 
       | Their marketing team need to understand brand names carries
       | weight and if you stuff too many unrelated in the name loses it
       | and will confuse consumers. It's not a good idea.
        
         | aembleton wrote:
         | How is this not related to Github Copilot? They both use AI to
         | generate suggestions.
        
         | EForEndeavour wrote:
         | I'm more upset about sticking with the terrible name "365" to
         | refer to what I'll always think of as MS Office. Leave it to
         | corporate branding by committee to seriously accept naming a
         | productivity suite after something as inherently ambiguous and
         | insipid as the (rounded) number of days in a year.
        
       | cardosof wrote:
       | Here's the GPT4 summary of the url:
       | 
       | Microsoft introduces Microsoft 365 Copilot
       | 
       | Microsoft has introduced Microsoft 365 Copilot, a next-generation
       | AI-powered productivity tool integrated into Microsoft 365 apps,
       | including Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, and Teams. Copilot
       | harnesses large language models (LLMs) and combines them with
       | data in the Microsoft Graph to streamline work processes. It aims
       | to unleash creativity, unlock productivity, and uplevel skills by
       | providing assistance in writing, analyzing, collaborating, and
       | automating tasks.
       | 
       | Microsoft 365 Copilot also offers a new feature called Business
       | Chat, which works across apps and data to perform tasks using
       | natural language prompts. The tool is designed to provide
       | accurate, relevant, and contextual responses based on users'
       | business data and context. Microsoft 365 Copilot is built with
       | security, compliance, privacy, and data protection in mind,
       | ensuring an enterprise-ready AI solution. The company plans to
       | bring Copilot to all its productivity apps and will share more
       | details on pricing and licensing in the future.
        
         | version_five wrote:
         | Do people still think they're adding value to the discussion by
         | posting gpt output? It got old the day after the model came
         | out, now it's just obnoxious noise. Can we please stop?
        
           | aroo wrote:
           | I think it'll stop when browsers integrate an LLM powered
           | summary tool
        
             | vitorgrs wrote:
             | Edge did, though would be nice a better integration
             | (context menu?)
        
       | GartzenDeHaes wrote:
       | I was just looking into Github copilot, but it seem to have been
       | abandoned. https://github.com/orgs/community/discussions/40522
        
         | jeremyjh wrote:
         | I have that problem as well but every once in a while it will
         | spew a large block of non-sense. My guess was that it's tuning
         | itself to me - I often use it's one liners and rarely use the
         | multi-liners so it's not offering them much.
        
         | freedomben wrote:
         | Do you have more, or are you just assuming it's been abandoned
         | because there is an issue that's been open for 3 months that
         | they haven't fixed?
        
       | elzbardico wrote:
       | Really. I used chatGPT quite a few times to summarize corporate
       | spam emails to me. So this now makes things deliciously ironic:
       | 
       | 1. BS Manager jolts down a few lines then AI outputs pompous
       | bullshit from the raw bullshit she wrote.
       | 
       | 2. I get the bullshit email and then use AI to distill the
       | bullshit down to the essential bullshit
        
         | doomleika wrote:
         | I really wish I can just send mail with bulletpoints without
         | all the formality stuff and walk around the egg shells.
         | 
         | But alas, that's the way it is. Reminds me the custom in Japan
         | working culture. There are so many unspoken rules you are
         | expected to follow and it became hinderance.
        
           | whstl wrote:
           | I had a manager that was like this. Bullet points for
           | complicated stuff, but most of the time the answer was just
           | "OK", "Yes", "No" or perhaps a number if you asked for a
           | quantity. Not even hello/goodbye, just a "Sent from my
           | iPhone".
        
         | mc32 wrote:
         | I would love for chatGPT to have a manager to grunt "They Live"
         | translator.
        
         | sz4kerto wrote:
         | This is exactly what should happen. The next step is to
         | automate the translation to/from bullshit to normal speech.
         | Then at some point we'll remove the translator and no one will
         | notice.
        
           | aembleton wrote:
           | and those who do like the bullshit can have the AI generate
           | it, and in the exact style that they like.
        
           | lallysingh wrote:
           | That's a lovely dream, but the truth is that everyone wants a
           | translation to a different dialect. Customers, developers,
           | marketers, analysts, etc. all want different summarizations
           | of the same bullshit.
           | 
           | Customers: Fault-tolerant queue with high throughput.
           | 
           | Developers: Sharded and disk-backed queue.
           | 
           | Marketers: Scales to handle large ML workloads.
           | 
           | Analysts: Enters enterprise BI market.
        
         | anyfactor wrote:
         | I am a DevRel so I work on the business side of the company but
         | my intended readers are developers.
         | 
         | Even though I was a skeptic at first, now I am a believer in
         | practical usage of AI. I really struggle with writing CTAs or
         | conclusive remarks. My writing style is dry and I write
         | technical articles in a step by step manner assuming the reader
         | has no to little understanding of the subject matter. I feel
         | like developer do appreciate this writing practice however all
         | long form content need meaningful endings.
         | 
         | I appreciate the help of AI with summarizing, describing what
         | the intended instructions should achieve and telling readers to
         | explore the next step.
         | 
         | My content used to end at "now you know how to do it". This is
         | just too unnatural, writing a meaningful conclusion can be a
         | challange sometimes so AI is helping me a lot.
        
           | candiddevmike wrote:
           | What do your marketing folks think about generating branded
           | content via AI?
        
             | anyfactor wrote:
             | I actually work in the marketing team.
             | 
             | I work for a data company with an enterprise focus.
             | Anything that goes into the company blog is vetted,
             | researched and published with a reasonably high level
             | quality requirement.
             | 
             | We are not actually interested in content generation or
             | content churn with AI (period). But AI as a personal
             | content helper is proving to be somewhat useful for me.
        
           | 101008 wrote:
           | Writing can be improved. If your position requires better
           | writing try to improve it, not replace your lack of skills
           | with an AI. Using a AI is the same as to pay someone else on
           | Fiverr to write the emails for you.
        
             | aembleton wrote:
             | Yep, but its cheaper and easier to use AI. Its just a tool;
             | just like spellcheck is a tool.
        
               | bovermyer wrote:
               | I still don't use spellcheck, and my writing turns out
               | fine.
               | 
               | These tools are fine for casual writers. However, people
               | who write as their primary craft should work to improve
               | their craft. AI (and spellcheck) are just crutches.
        
             | the_pwner224 wrote:
             | No. Using AI for this will increase your writing skills as
             | long as you put more than 0 effort into it.
             | 
             | He's presumably not doing 1) paste his draft into ChatGPT,
             | 2) paste the ChatGPT output into the text editor, 3) click
             | publish.
             | 
             | If your objective is to create a well-written and effective
             | document (rather than having AI autowrite some useless
             | email), you wouldn't just blindly publish the ChatGPT
             | output. You would read through the text that ChatGPT
             | outputs and spend a minute reviewing what it wrote and
             | tweaking it to your liking. Over time, as you read the
             | corrected well-written version of your original poorly-
             | written content, your brain naturally picks up on the
             | differences and learns how to write well.
             | 
             | I've experienced this personally with Grammarly. I had very
             | low expectations going in, and I still don't like some of
             | its suggestions, but over time as you see and apply the
             | corrections it suggests, you naturally end up learning and
             | improving your writing skills. It's a great learning tool.
        
               | 101008 wrote:
               | I do exactly that to improve my grammar (check my history
               | comments, I even mentioned it as a positive use case of
               | ChatGPT).
               | 
               | And I agree that it is a good tool if you decide to put
               | some effort on that, but that wasn't my impression from
               | the original comment.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | meh8881 wrote:
             | Why?
        
           | lallysingh wrote:
           | Why not describe the end state after following all the steps?
           | "You should now have a document with 1 page per recipient of
           | your mail merge."
        
             | josho wrote:
             | Sometimes you get so deep into the weeds that it's
             | difficult to come out and hit the high-level summary.
             | 
             | The parent's use of AI sounds like a perfect tool to help
             | get the brain out of the 100ft view and into the 30,000ft
             | view to write that summary.
             | 
             | I just used chatgpt for a similar purpose, I rewrote
             | several paragraphs from the response and it took me some
             | time iterating on my prompt. But, I'm sold on the use for
             | this purpose. I don't enjoy writing. This helps me become a
             | better writer and saves time.
        
         | sangnoir wrote:
         | I'm sure no pertinent information wil be lost in this game of
         | corporate broken telephone. _The vodka is good but the meat is
         | rotten._
        
         | nyc_data_geek1 wrote:
         | The shape of things to come.
        
         | golergka wrote:
         | Still a huge improvement over pre-AI state of things.
        
         | lallysingh wrote:
         | This is beautiful machine translation! Through an intermediate
         | language of fluffed-up corporate bullshit.
         | 
         | That's been the core of business work for decades. Now finally
         | automated.
        
         | Xelynega wrote:
         | You're forgetting the part where Microsoft owns the
         | integration, so your options as a new business are "pay
         | Microsoft to decode the emails people are paying Microsoft to
         | encode" or "spend man hours going through those emails without
         | decoding them".
         | 
         | It's starting to make sense to me why this is a billion dollar
         | industry like Google was. Not because of its proposed
         | usefulness but it's ability to create a monopoly where the
         | options are to sign an contract you don't get to negotiate, or
         | be "outcompeted".
         | 
         | It feels like a mirror of Google's relationship with content
         | creation sites. They created and continue to benefit from a
         | reality where the options are "give Google your content for
         | free to index and use as it likes" or "your content isn't
         | discoverable by people".
        
         | toss1 wrote:
         | Considering the "discusion" I just had trying out ChatGPT (3.5,
         | I believe), Step 2, is a bit distant.
         | 
         | It was impressive on general information, but as I got to more
         | specific questions, I got a lot of vague and vaguely incorrect
         | responses. When I provided a specific paper on the topic, it
         | provided similar generalizations.
         | 
         | The weird thing is that it completely fabricated the author's
         | name. No part of the name was anywhere in the paper. Called on
         | the error, ChatGPT then said, "sorry for the error, it's really
         | [Different_Name_2]". Called on that error, it then said similar
         | "sorry for the error it's really [Different_Name_3]", then
         | [Different_Name_4], and [Different_Name_5]... Wrong dates also,
         | but it finally did get the date right (displayed right above
         | the line saying "Author"..."). It also hallucinated employers
         | for these fabricated authors.
         | 
         | It never did provide the right info. When I specifically
         | prompted it with "ou did find the correct date information.
         | Right under that there is a line saying "Author:" and following
         | that, there is the actual author's name and employer. Can you
         | parse and answer me with that actual information about the
         | author?"
         | 
         | It first responded with a red error message. Repeated, it
         | hallucinated ANOTHER fabrication...
         | 
         | I'm just astonished about the way this thing doubles down on
         | it's hallucinations.
         | 
         | This really is the invention of infinitely scaled bullshit.
         | 
         | Edit: Definition of BS is speech or writing produced not
         | specifically to lie or tell the truth, but with utter disregard
         | for the facts. E.g., a BS artist just spins tales that sound
         | good, with neither malicious or deceitful intent, but also with
         | zero care about truth.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | nowandlater wrote:
         | This is giving me anxiety
        
           | shswkna wrote:
           | It shouldn't. All this will lead to us discovering what is
           | actually valuable.
        
             | candiddevmike wrote:
             | Like nature, the environment, living in harmony? Nah, just
             | feed me 24/7 content from an AI that is rewarded based on
             | my dopamine levels.
        
               | dustymcp wrote:
               | Plug me in scotty!
        
           | jrvarela56 wrote:
           | In the end, everyone types and reads the minimum necessary.
           | 
           | Wonder how lossy this process would be, but given how non-AI-
           | assisted conversations go this could probably be an
           | improvement. Imagine the AI also has extra context from your
           | work files so it can add relevant details.
        
             | swatcoder wrote:
             | Yes, having a black box AI reach into my client/employer's
             | confidential documents to better incorporate their contents
             | in my emails sounds great.
             | 
             | (And I know you're imagining some adequate and reliable
             | security practice, but those practices are _harder_ to
             | apply to generative AI than to people, where they're
             | already a clusterf--k. What you're suggesting is a security
             | specialist's nightmare)
        
               | jodrellblank wrote:
               | The article says: " _Built on Microsoft's comprehensive
               | approach to security, compliance and privacy. Copilot is
               | integrated into Microsoft 365 and automatically inherits
               | all your company's valuable security, compliance, and
               | privacy policies and processes. Two-factor
               | authentication, compliance boundaries, privacy
               | protections, and more make Copilot the AI solution you
               | can trust._ "
               | 
               | " _Architected to protect tenant, group and individual
               | data. We know data leakage is a concern for customers.
               | Copilot LLMs are not trained on your tenant data or your
               | prompts. Within your tenant, our time-tested
               | permissioning model ensures that data won't leak across
               | user groups. And on an individual level, Copilot presents
               | only data you can access using the same technology that
               | we've been using for years to secure customer data._ "
        
         | la64710 wrote:
         | Well AI sender writes a email to a bunch of email addresses,
         | one of the AI recipient email agent responds , then another one
         | responds , then one AI email agent responds politely asking
         | everyone to stop hitting the reply all button , and soon the
         | other AI agents respond back to each other saying to stop
         | hitting the respond all button until one big AI agent says
         | "Nobody responds to this last email" .... meanwhile the human
         | sitting in the hotel cube in his office looks at his computer
         | screen and sighs ... deja vu!
        
         | xen2xen1 wrote:
         | What a good secretary used to do, on both ends?
        
           | lallysingh wrote:
           | This is what Office was always for, right? Replacing the
           | secretary.
        
             | xen2xen1 wrote:
             | As long as Bob learned to type.
        
         | sebzim4500 wrote:
         | It sounds absurd but I think this is actually what is going to
         | happen. Corporate speak will become an extremely inefficient
         | protocol only spoken by machines, while the humans only look at
         | the actual content.
        
           | Xelynega wrote:
           | What does that mean for Microsoft who get a $ for each
           | encode/decode to the corporate speak protocol? And what does
           | it mean for the companies that can't afford the tithe to
           | Microsoft to automatically encode/decode corporate speak like
           | everyone else?
        
         | throwawayai2 wrote:
         | There is a product leader at my company that has started
         | generating product documents from ChatGPT and it atrocious. Now
         | we have product documents that are filled with pages of content
         | vaguely related to what we are working on. They don't use it as
         | a starting point to edit, it's copy and paste it in. They
         | regularly "reveal" that this was all AI, when it is blatantly
         | obvious it is. Not sure how we are supposed to be "innovating"
         | when our products docs are just 2 year old AI filler text.
         | People are worried about the internet getting filled with AI
         | produced garbage. My job is already filled with AI produced
         | garbage. It seems like this announcement is going to make that
         | a reality for a lot more people.
         | 
         | I'm not anti-AI. I think its going to have a huge impact and
         | soon. But right now it's not good for generating knowledge
         | work.
        
           | berkle4455 wrote:
           | You must work with better product people than I have, because
           | I'd argue the vast majority of their output pre ChatGPT was
           | atrocious garbage vaguely related to what we were working on.
        
           | siva7 wrote:
           | If people are misusing their tools i wouldn't fault
           | ChatGTP/MSCopilot for it.
        
             | swatcoder wrote:
             | I didn't see them do so.
             | 
             | But the tools don't do what a lot of people imagine and so
             | we'll see such misuse be rampant for a long long while.
             | 
             | We don't take digital pollution or content pollution very
             | seriously yet, but these tools are going to force us to
             | finally do so. There's a lot of smog coming to our online
             | lives.
        
       | kolinko wrote:
       | A bit disappointed they didn't call it Clippy.
        
       | ben30 wrote:
       | The article does not provide a specific release date for
       | Microsoft 365 Copilot, but it mentions that the company is
       | testing it with a small group of customers to get feedback and
       | improve their models as they scale. It also states that Microsoft
       | plans to bring Copilot to all its productivity apps in the months
       | ahead. However, pricing and licensing details have not been
       | announced yet.
        
         | EForEndeavour wrote:
         | Thanks, GPT ;)
        
       | gigel82 wrote:
       | No word on pricing. Given how expensive GPT-4 is, and how
       | "integrated" with document / presentation content the responses
       | appear to be, I expect this to be a very expensive product.
       | 
       | Maybe they'll eat the costs like with BingChat to wet people's
       | appetite and hope for a breakthrough on the hardware side to
       | bring costs down but I can't imagine they can keep that up for
       | long.
        
         | siva7 wrote:
         | Oh they sure will eat the costs until Google is the new Yahoo
        
       | cinbun8 wrote:
       | They've really put the summarisation and Whisper capabilities to
       | good use!
       | 
       | "Unlock productivity. We all want to focus on the 20% of our work
       | that really matters, but 80% of our time is consumed with
       | busywork that bogs us down. Copilot lightens the load. From
       | summarizing long email threads to quickly drafting suggested
       | replies, Copilot in Outlook helps you clear your inbox in
       | minutes, not hours. And every meeting is a productive meeting
       | with Copilot in Teams. It can summarize key discussion points --
       | including who said what and where people are aligned and where
       | they disagree -- and suggest action items, all in real time
       | during a meeting. And with Copilot in Power Platform, anyone can
       | automate repetitive tasks, create chatbots and go from idea to
       | working app in minutes."
        
         | croes wrote:
         | That's just marketing babble,look what most people did with
         | Word and Excel.
        
       | sandworm101 wrote:
       | Clippy + execuspeak = a new corner in Office Space hell.
        
       | gfodor wrote:
       | it should have been clippy
        
       | makeitrain wrote:
       | How will they get the data to train the model. They have
       | everyone's documents, and could potentially produce amazing
       | results. But how will they protect against content leaks?
        
         | aldarisbm wrote:
         | This seems to me like the "grounding" (getting documents/data)
         | won't be fed back into the system. It will just be used to
         | verify that output has an actual artifact that is been based
         | on.
        
         | JanSt wrote:
         | It's a three part model. The LLM does not know the docs, it
         | gets a modified prompt that includes the context
        
       | b33j0r wrote:
       | Clippy: it appears that you're writing a very sad word document
       | in partially broken Danish, and keep trying to signal SOS with
       | your typing pattern. Would you feel better in bold Comic Sans?
       | 
       | You: aw, clippy, I believed in you all along
        
         | hestefisk wrote:
         | Enter: Microsoft Bob
        
           | tiffanyh wrote:
           | Melinda French lead Microsoft Bob
           | 
           | She was once married to a guy named Bill Gates.
           | 
           | https://twitter.com/melindagates/status/917030072846036993?l.
           | ..
        
             | eastbound wrote:
             | For a demo of MS Bob: https://youtu.be/5teG6ou8mWU
        
       | cs702 wrote:
       | Faster than anyone predicted, we're starting to offload more and
       | more cognitive work to these machines. Soon enough, the machines
       | will be talking to each other, even negotiating with each other,
       | and bringing human beings in the loop only when necessary, e.g.,
       | to make "important decisions." We sure live in interesting times.
        
       | doabell wrote:
       | They've been trying out a lot of things lately - Loops,
       | Scheduling polls & email reactions in Outlook to name a few.
       | Excited to see how this will turn out.
        
         | miguelazo wrote:
         | I just noticed email reactions. Quite annoying.
        
       | vasili111 wrote:
       | How to turn it on? I do not see it in the Microsoft Word for
       | example.
        
         | outcoldman wrote:
         | I would assume because Microsoft is such an enterprise company.
         | By "Introducing" they just want their stock to jump. Can you
         | touch it now? Probably not. This article is vague about how to
         | use it or where to try it.
        
       | jatins wrote:
       | Shipping at big companies can often be surprisingly hard so it's
       | impressive to see how fast Microsoft is moving with AI
       | integration into all their products.
        
         | probably_wrong wrote:
         | I am not as optimistic as you.
         | 
         | As someone who had Teams imposed on them at the beginnings of
         | the pandemic, I'd say: it is easy to ship anything fast when
         | your users have no say on whether they want to use your product
         | at all, no one cares that your laptop grinds to a halt when
         | using it, and when no one will hold you responsible for
         | delivering broken code.
         | 
         | Will MS Copilot work? Maybe, maybe not. But as far as Microsoft
         | is concerned it doesn't have to be _good_ - it just has to
         | _exist_ so they can justify charging their corporate users a
         | little bit more.
        
         | dopeboy wrote:
         | My biggest takeaway from all of this. I'm very impressed with
         | their velocity.
        
           | rqtwteye wrote:
           | Let's see if it's the same type of velocity they have with
           | Teams. Constant change that breaks things.
        
             | costcofries wrote:
             | I hope you have a better day.
        
               | outside1234 wrote:
               | I mean objectively he is not wrong
        
               | skc wrote:
               | Well an anecdote by definition can't be wrong.
               | 
               | Teams is annoying to use at times, but I don't see any
               | constant breaking changes
        
               | winphone1974 wrote:
               | It's essentially the telephone of many, with the
               | reliability of... A telephone built to the standards of
               | your typical web application.
               | 
               | You can't trust it for things like audio, file sharing or
               | alerts which is pretty problematic
        
               | olyjohn wrote:
               | My day would be better if my basic communications tools
               | worked as expected, and I didn't have to wrangle it into
               | doing shit all day long.
        
           | aldarisbm wrote:
           | I wonder how they figured out all of the vectors where they
           | could improve automation/velocity.
           | 
           | One wonders if they used AI for these recommendations.
        
         | virtuosarmo wrote:
         | Perhaps the slowing in their PC and cloud sales is motivating
         | to move faster on these initiatives.
        
         | bigmattystyles wrote:
         | I was ok with using edge on my corporate laptop (mostly to not
         | install more than the stock software) but that un-hidable
         | discover button that just appeared is making me question my ok-
         | ness. Maybe I'm just angry at the VP who made the decision to
         | let that in that's paid more than I'll ever be. I want to get
         | paid to make boneheaded decisions too.
        
           | ncpa-cpl wrote:
           | Same here. Chromium based Edge used to be nice at the
           | beginning, it was a breath of fresh air after Chrome forcing
           | Google services all the time.
           | 
           | But Edge seems to get worse after each update.
           | 
           | Recent updates have give me a new sidebar and video
           | backgrounds on tabs. And a cloud based Microsoft Editor or
           | something that I guess it sends everything I type to the
           | cloud.
        
         | miguelazo wrote:
         | Given how bad the Bing integration has gone, perhaps we should
         | wait and see what the actual results are before we get too
         | impressed.
        
           | DeWilde wrote:
           | I've been using it for code and product summaries and
           | recommendations and it works fine.
           | 
           | With what uses did you find it lacking?
        
           | PaulWaldman wrote:
           | How has the Bing integration been deficient?
        
             | speedgoose wrote:
             | On this topic, now that GPT-4 without Bing is available on
             | ChatGPT Plus, it's noticeable that Bing slows down the
             | generation and can make the output much worse by including
             | Bing crap in the context.
             | 
             | But it's also sometimes better at things the normal GPT
             | doesn't know about. I think it's going to be the best
             | search engine once they improve the speed.
        
             | cryptoz wrote:
             | Well, it did threaten violence towards a user.
        
               | zaroth wrote:
               | You think they didn't do that on purpose for all the free
               | news cycles they got?
               | 
               | If I was launching AI, having it be just a _bit unhinged_
               | is obviously the best way to get it to go viral.
        
           | kolinko wrote:
           | Bad? It works nicely, at least on iPhone.
        
         | mihaaly wrote:
         | It is also impressive how slow they deliver the option of
         | ungrouping taskbar icons, which is requested by masses for
         | years now, and actually worked before. I know, I know, that is
         | a much harder poblem than AI. Maybe they need to improve AI
         | much more first so it could have superhuman powers, solving the
         | task bar ungrouping problem finally for the humanity.
        
           | xen2xen1 wrote:
           | No it's not. They obviously just decided not to do it.
        
           | warning26 wrote:
           | I don't like a lot of things about the direction that
           | Microsoft has taken Windows's UX, but this is absolutely an
           | edge case that only a tiny % of users care about, and
           | certainly not "masses" of anyone.
        
             | Pxtl wrote:
             | MS has such a huge userbase that I'd wager any GUI feature
             | that's accessible from the desktop has "masses" of users.
        
               | mynameisvlad wrote:
               | That just means "masses" as a concept gets diluted.
               | 
               | It might be "masses" to a single outside observer, but a
               | drop in the bucket to someone that has a picture of how
               | big that mass truly is compared to the rest of the
               | userbase.
        
             | mihaaly wrote:
             | Google: windows ungroup taskbar icons
             | 
             | There is even a paid app for that (beyond free ones)! : D
        
           | Pxtl wrote:
           | Different teams have very different processes. The AI/Bing
           | group is obviously much more "move fast and break things"
           | than the OS group.
        
             | winphone1974 wrote:
             | This is a really good thing, right?
        
               | Pxtl wrote:
               | Well, it does mean there are some MS products where I
               | know not to trust the software out of those teams to
               | upgrade cleanly... if ever.
        
           | Amezarak wrote:
           | I'm sure the issue there is designers believing they know
           | better than power users how things should work, leading to
           | the gradual evolution of software that is usable only by the
           | lowest common denominator.
           | 
           | This happens to a lot of projects, it's a shame it's infested
           | MS.
        
           | KyeRussell wrote:
           | Microsoft doesn't lose points for not prioritising your
           | personal workflow gripes as a power-user. Honestly anyone
           | that prioritised working on this based purely on what you've
           | described would NOT be a good product owner.
        
           | mynameisvlad wrote:
           | Maybe it's not actually being requested by masses and instead
           | just a vocal minority that you happen to be a part of? Or
           | maybe Microsoft already calculated that fixing it won't bring
           | much if any more money than not and therefore that it's not
           | worth it.
           | 
           | Just because something that you want fixed isn't done does
           | not mean they're "slow". If it hasn't been included after
           | years of being "requested by masses", then it's more likely
           | it just won't be included period.
        
             | mihaaly wrote:
             | There is even a paid app doing that now! Beyond free ones.
             | That's how rare problem is this. :D You actually meet with
             | it daily, hourly if using two or more windows by the same
             | app.
             | 
             | Just because you are a hobbist user and never met a
             | productivity problem it doesn't mean that the professional
             | population does not suffer from it (see, I can make
             | unfunded assumptions too about the other end ;) ). All
             | around me have this problem, with various level of
             | seriousity. Google the problem, like I did for prolonged
             | time searching for a good answer, it will bring up masses
             | of troubled people.
             | 
             | > maybe Microsoft already calculated that fixing it won't
             | bring much if any more money than not and therefore that
             | it's not worth it
             | 
             | Can you also have an educated deliberation about the
             | calculations justified the removal of this feature existed
             | before? ;)
        
               | vitorgrs wrote:
               | Is not just a removal, you know right? They rewrote
               | taskbar entirely. It's actually coming soon the feature
               | :)
        
               | mynameisvlad wrote:
               | > There is even a paid app doing that now
               | 
               | Does that somehow change prioritization? If anything, it
               | would lower the priority because there's a workaround
               | people can use.
               | 
               | > All around me have this problem, with various level of
               | seriousity. Google the problem, like I did for prolonged
               | time searching for a good answer, it will bring up masses
               | of troubled people.
               | 
               | If it was as large of a problem as you claim, with as
               | wide an impacted userbase, it would have already been
               | fixed. Yet here we are.
               | 
               | All you've proven is that there is a vocal minority.
               | Which I already said.
               | 
               | At the scale of Microsoft and Windows (1.4 billion active
               | users), for every person complaining about a specific
               | problem, there are literally millions of users who
               | aren't. Just because it is a problem for _you_ does not
               | mean it 's automatically a big enough problem to address.
               | If it isn't going to actively lose users (which it
               | clearly isn't, considering people wrote apps to stay on
               | Windows and have this behavior), then it isn't worth it.
               | 
               | > Can you also have an educated deliberation about the
               | calculations justified the removal of this feature
               | existed before? ;)
               | 
               | I'm not a seer, but it's plainly obvious from a software
               | prioritization standpoint. The taskbar was rewritten and
               | the feature was not justified as being important enough
               | to keep. Wow, such deep, so insight.
        
               | miles wrote:
               | >> There is even a paid app doing that now
               | 
               | > If anything, it would lower the priority because
               | there's a workaround people can use.
               | 
               | Until this happens:
               | 
               | Windows 11 update breaks PCs that dare sport a custom UI 
               | https://www.theregister.com/2023/03/01/microsoft_windows_
               | 11_... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34999885
        
               | mynameisvlad wrote:
               | Ok? I'm not sure how that changes the point.
               | 
               | Things break, the app developers fix it, and then they
               | work again. I don't think there's an expectation anywhere
               | that third party apps will work forever, from the
               | standpoint of anyone involved.
               | 
               | But a viable workaround for users even if it isn't first
               | party _will_ change prioritization when looking at a
               | feature.
        
         | itsaquicknote wrote:
         | "In the months ahead..."
         | 
         | They've not shipped this. They're planning to. You're reading a
         | marketing piece about work in the pipe. Like so, so many other
         | company product "launches" in this space that are "already
         | testing with a small group of whatevers".
        
           | mynameisvlad wrote:
           | I would argue that shipping to a limited test group qualifies
           | in terms of measuring velocity, which is what the OP said
           | they were impressed with.
           | 
           | Launching to 10000 people vs 10000000 is a matter of scale
           | (which is still important, but not the same thing as), not
           | velocity.
        
             | lallysingh wrote:
             | There's no reason to believe that what they're testing
             | right now has any relation to what they show in the video.
        
             | somsak2 wrote:
             | i didn't see a place where they said they had 10k users
             | already
        
               | mynameisvlad wrote:
               | Microsoft employs somewhere above 200k people. 10k is
               | only a 5% internal rollout. That seems entirely doable
               | without any fanfare.
               | 
               | The numbers are also completely made up, used to
               | illustrate the point. Launching a product to X users is
               | different than scaling up to X*1000 users, if that makes
               | you feel better.
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | agloe_dreams wrote:
           | FWIIW, This seems rather similar to Github Copilot in VS
           | Code. Been using it for a year, training data issues aside
           | the product is absurdly good at times.
        
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