[HN Gopher] What Korzybski got wrong about the map and the terri...
___________________________________________________________________
What Korzybski got wrong about the map and the territory
Author : vitabenes
Score : 21 points
Date : 2023-03-14 11:52 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (mattpmn.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (mattpmn.substack.com)
| avgcorrection wrote:
| This article takes a koan-like saying and both over-explains it,
| uses it to draw in all sorts of misc. topics (AI?), and abuses
| the metaphor ("A map shows you everything at once. The order of
| events matters on a journey.").
| lofatdairy wrote:
| > We talk about wild stuff on this newsletter blog. You won't
| get mental stimulation like this from today's fifteenth SEO
| blog post quoting Charlie Munger on "mental models".
|
| Hilariously overwrought style aside, I think the actual insight
| isn't quite so trite. The author seems to be arguing that
| there's a phenomenological element to the territory, and that
| the implication of Korzynbski's oft-repeated aphorism is to
| imply that the territory exists independent to one's experience
| of it. I'm not too familiar with phenomenology so I could be
| wrong, but the concepts that the territory in its entirety is
| both unknowable and that all we have are maps of maps have been
| played with by other philosophers and aren't limited to
| phenomenological lines of argument. Maybe the novelty is the
| specific argument that the territory unfolds before us as we
| travel "through" it, but honestly I'm not spending anymore time
| trying to work my way through such a rough draft.
| probablypower wrote:
| > Korzybski: The map isn't the territory.
|
| > This article: The map isn't the experienced territory isn't the
| territory.
|
| This seems over-thought and tautological. It just reinforces to
| me that Korzybski was wise. The article was also needlessly
| meandering for my tastes, but I guess some people like "making
| their way down the trail" of a blogpost.
| barathr wrote:
| Chapman had a good, very detailed essay on this topic:
|
| https://metarationality.com/maps-and-territory
| StrangeATractor wrote:
| Hell of a coincidence, I just bought a bunch of Korzybski.
|
| Oddly enough, he's kind of difficult to find nowadays.
| jerrysievert wrote:
| I was lucky to pick up a second hand copy of Science and Sanity
| about 25 years ago at Powell's in Portland. sadly, it appears
| they are now only able to sell the "selections from".
|
| the older editions are just beautiful in hardback.
|
| amazon appears to have a single copy in stock as of this
| comment, but I'm afraid most people will end up having to do an
| "alternate library" search to get a pdf copy of this amazing
| book.
| ineptech wrote:
| I don't think the author quite groks the map/territory
| distinction that Korzybski goes on and on about.
|
| > A map shows you everything at once. The order of events matters
| on a journey. Knowing your way around a place isn't remotely like
| map-knowledge. Korzybski almost gets this point. Whatever is
| happening as we represent the flow of sensation in words has a
| weak and fragile grip on things outside of the mind. Words can
| only express a tiny slice of what we experience of the world.
|
| In other words, he's complaining that a "map" (as in, paper with
| a drawing of some terrain on it) is a poor and limited stand-in
| for a "map" (as in mental model of some phenomenon). But that's
| exactly what Korzybski was saying! All maps are poor and limited,
| by virtue of being maps, even the one implied by "The map is not
| the territory" which uses physical terrain maps as a model for
| models generally.
|
| To be fair, Korzybski was prolific and most of his writing is
| pretty opaque and I don't understand 90% of his output (and I
| consider myself a huge fan!) so I may be misunderstanding OP's
| point, or misrepresenting Korzybski's. I'm just adding my two
| cents' worth because I was very heavily influenced by General
| Semantics (the parts I can understand) and am always excited to
| see it discussed.
| superb-owl wrote:
| I agree with your assessment. OP is aligned with Korzybski,
| even though he says he's disagreeing.
| larsrc wrote:
| What is the author on and where can I get some? Or is it an AI
| hallucinating? Can we even tell the difference? Are the AIs ready
| to pass the Stoner Turing test?
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I always liked the Swiss Army take on that:
|
| _> When the map and the terrain disagree, believe the terrain._
| folli wrote:
| As one of my commanders (in the Swiss Army) used to say: "Die
| Karte ist eine Lugnerin." (The map is a liar)
| [deleted]
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-03-14 23:03 UTC)