[HN Gopher] Framework 12th gen laptop review
___________________________________________________________________
Framework 12th gen laptop review
Author : pabs3
Score : 179 points
Date : 2023-03-13 09:42 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (anarc.at)
(TXT) w3m dump (anarc.at)
| pmontra wrote:
| > in a bizarre twist, they somehow sent me the URL with the plus
| (+) signs escaped, like this:
|
| > https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition...
|
| > ... which Firefox immediately transforms in:
|
| > https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework/+Laptop/+DIY/+Edit...
|
| > I'm puzzled as to why they would send the URL that way, the
| proper URL is of course:
|
| > https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition...
|
| In a bizzarre twist the blog software unescaped the first URL (I
| checked the page source) and turned it into the last one, which I
| confirmed to work
|
| :-)
| anarcat wrote:
| yeah the irony... i have just fixed this, i think.
|
| i have also _just_ scanned the URLs underneath the left-wise
| expansion slot and it 's still a 404 on my phone.
| fulafel wrote:
| Is the suspend and power managment problem a OS independent HW
| flaw or is there still something to fix in Linux?
| f_devd wrote:
| It's hard to know for sure without being involved in the
| development of both sides (the line between new features being
| unimplemented & hw/firmware being buggy is often blurry), but
| here is some context: * Linux 5.x does not support most 12th
| gen power-management/igpu, >6.1 does * According to a few
| (unconfirmed) sources, there were workarounds required that
| first came from clean-linux >6.x (intel's linux fork).
|
| So most likely it's a mix of new hw breaking existing
| functionality, and new features not being implemented yet at
| release
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Some of the power management issues have been fixed
| semirecently with a firmware update for the thunderbolt
| controller IIRC
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| this is the biggest problem I have with Framework. I would not
| have bought a 12Gen for Linux had I realized it was an issue.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| > consider buying 4 USB-C expansion cards, or at least a mix of 4
| USB-A or USB-C cards, as they use less power than other cards and
| you do want to fill those expansion slots otherwise they snag
| around and feel insecure
|
| > in particular, beware that the HDMI, DisplayPort and
| particularly the SSD and MicroSD cards take a significant amount
| power, even when sleeping, up to 2-6W for the latter two
|
| > you have to do some serious tuning to get proper (10h+ idle, 10
| days suspend) power savings
|
| Why is the Framework so much worse at these than e.g. the LG gram
| series? HDMI, 2x USB-C/TB4, 2x USB-A, micro-SD out of the box, no
| serious tuning required...
|
| > 296.63mm X 228.98mm X 15.85mm, 1.3Kg
|
| > Battery: 55Wh
|
| Why does such a relatively big and heavy laptop have such a
| comparatively small battery?
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > _Why is the Framework so much worse at these than e.g. the LG
| gram series? HDMI, 2x USB-C /TB4, 2x USB-A, micro-SD out of the
| box, no serious tuning required..._
|
| I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone at Framework is
| hacking on Linux and upstreaming drivers that implement
| efficient power management correctly. I also don't think
| they're hacking on custom firmware for components, either.
|
| Looks like System76, for example, puts a lot of work in to get
| white label Clevo laptops working pretty well with Linux.
| Framework is likely working with whatever the kernel already
| supports, and often times it's hard to implement good power
| management for components because the documentation isn't
| available, so you're lucky if someone spent time trying to
| reverse engineer anything at all.
|
| Also conjecture: I don't think Framework is designing low-level
| hardware, either, and the boards they design/buy aren't
| optimized for power saving versus actually shipping a product.
|
| I'd assume that LG has more resources dedicated to power
| efficiency when it comes to time, money and manpower, and they
| have kernel hackers on their payroll, as they roll and deploy
| their own Linux-based OS.
|
| It could also just be chance, where the LG gram just happens to
| be built with well supported components.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| The trade off with system76 laptops, though, is that you're
| stuck with underwhelming Clevo design decisions like 16:9
| screens.
|
| I know system76 has had their own laptop designs in the works
| for a while now, I wonder how that's going... being tethered
| to Clevo is kneecapping them in a few ways IMO.
| zdragnar wrote:
| The gram doesn't have an option to come with Linux installed
| (at least mine didn't). If they were doing custom Linux work,
| I would have to imagine that they'd offer Linux as an OS too.
|
| In any case, I'm incredibly pleased with mine, the battery
| life really is fantastic and knowing it can be this good is
| probably the only reason a framework wouldn't be my next
| laptop.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| I suspect the grams are just very close to Intel's
| reference platforms which is probably why they work so
| well.
| lhl wrote:
| Framework is in fact are working on the firmware to improve
| battery life, primarily with the Intel TB4 (Burnside Bridge)
| retimers. Here's the work to reduce power consumption w/ the
| DP expansion card: https://community.frame.work/t/beta-
| displayport-expansion-ca...
|
| And here they talk about what they learned working on the
| Chromebook version:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32927094 that they've
| been working on in the latest (beta currently) BIOS updates:
| https://community.frame.work/t/12th-gen-intel-core-
| bios-3-06...
|
| For anyone interested, you can take a look at their community
| forums - they're doing as much Linux support as anyone else
| out there I think: https://community.frame.work/
|
| The LG gram has a few things going for it:
|
| * Soldered LPDDR memory is lower power than SODIMMs
|
| * Not having the extra retimer, not needing it to be active
| unless the TB4 port is used
|
| * A lower res display (1920x1200)
|
| * A 72Wh battery, which is 30% bigger than the 55Wh in the
| Framework
|
| That being said, LG (and other ODM/OEMs) have been making
| laptops for almost 20 years, and Framework is on year two on
| basically their first design, so it's probably to be expected
| that they have some stuff to learn/improve.
| mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
| I kind of wish they had version without the modular ports. It's
| a neat gimmick, but I really don't need it for anything. I just
| need the same 4 connectors: Usb-C for charging/docking, some
| USB-A ports, ethernet and a 3.5mm jack. I don't see those needs
| really changing. Faster USB speeds I can take or leave, but
| that would be limited by the underlying Thunderbolt at some
| point anyway.
|
| I guess it improves repairability and all. But eh, I never had
| a laptop where those parts failed before any other parts. So if
| I can just pay someone to help me solder on a new port the once
| pr decade one might fail, I'm ok with that. Or maybe they could
| make it easily replaceable without the modularity, that'd be
| great.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| Yeah this is a good insight. It's likely this lines up with
| what most customers of laptops would think if they learned
| about the framework laptop for the first time.
|
| When I first heard about the port changing feature I thought
| it was cool and useful. But i am now starting to wonder how
| often it would be used even by myself if I had one.
| aquova wrote:
| I have a framework laptop, and one of the deciding reasons
| I bought one was due to the modular ports. I'll admit that
| 99% of the time, I leave a USB-A and USB-C ports in on each
| side, but the ability to move the ports to whichever side
| of the laptop I need, as well as having the ability to swap
| in ports that I only seldomly use is great. Another
| understated benefit is being able to use any expansion
| cards they add in the future. They didn't have ethernet
| ports at launch, but now I'm able to get one if I so need.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| I imagine the point isn't for you to keep on switching the
| ports out every day.
|
| Rather, it's so _everyone_ can get the ports _they_ want
| with minimal overhead for Framework the company (fewer
| SKUs, less spare inventory, etc.).
|
| It's like LEGO: You can put together exactly what you want
| using exactly the bricks you want, and you aren't expected
| to take it all apart and build something new the next day
| just because you could either.
| mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
| I think one model with the bog standard stuff and one
| with the modules is a good compromise, or will be when
| they're more established and can afford the overhead you
| correctly point out. Right now they're very much a
| startup, and so I agree with you that it makes sense for
| them as a company right now.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| >bog standard stuff
|
| That's the question, though: What is "bog standard"?
|
| Apple will tell you bog standard is two USB-C ports.
|
| A tech enthusiast will tell you bog standard is at least
| 10 mixed USB-A and -C ports, at least three DisplayPorts,
| at least one ethernet jack, and a headphone jack.
|
| Jane Average over there will tell you bog standard is a
| power button.
|
| A DIYer will tell you bog standard is GPIO and serial.
|
| USB-IF will tell you bog standard is USB4.11 For
| Workgroups Revision 5 Type D 50gbps 2x4.
| djur wrote:
| Well, the Framework doesn't give you most of those
| options. You get 4 total of any of the following: USB-A,
| USB-C, DisplayPort, HDMI, MicroSD, Ethernet. (In practice
| a USB-C is mandatory for charging.) Plus built-in
| headphone. If you want any more than that, or anything
| different, you're gonna need a USB dongle like any other
| laptop.
| mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
| Pretty sure Jane Average would also include a charging
| port ;)
|
| Joking aside, to my mind bog standard is by definition
| not given by Apple, enthusiasts, hardware hackers, USB-
| IF, or someone who never needs a port ever. My mom is
| very tech illiterate and even she uses a cheap wireless
| mouse, and other USB stuff.
|
| It's obviously something Framework would have to research
| and think about. But I don't think it's unreasonable to
| say there is some definition of bog standard that should
| be able to serve 80% of customers. Where the 20% is made
| up of various niches that are happy to pay a premium for
| the modularity because they really need it.
| tracker1 wrote:
| At this point, for better or worse, and I know some may
| not like it... would be almost all USB-C. With
| thunderbolt, power delivery and video adapter options
| over the port, there's really not much reason to go
| otherwise, noting that some ports are not the same.
|
| One option might be to have a backplate adapter similar
| to ATX motherboards, where that just slots into the case
| itself attached to the motherboard... so Gen 3 could have
| 3x usb-c, 1 usb-a and a 4-pole headphone jack... Then all
| usb-c + headphone a generation after... but the
| horizontal spacing pre-defined like ATX backplane.
| regularfry wrote:
| The problem with forcing everything over USB-C is that
| you end up overloading hubs. I have four laptops in front
| of me, and I've got a setup in front of me that _just
| about_ works tolerably, but:
|
| 1. None of the machines I have to switch between have
| remotely enough sockets for the USB devices I actually
| need to use. Mouse, keyboard, headset, external webcam,
| yubikey are all USB-A. For the machines I've got that are
| USB-C only I need at least two hubs daisy-chained if I
| want to have the first in the chain be something I can
| put in my bag.
|
| 2. If I try to power some of them through the hub, they
| complain that they can't get enough power.
|
| 3. If I plug those same ones into the power directly, I
| don't have enough ports to also have a USB-C monitor
| connection, forcing that over onto HDMI.
|
| 4. Only one of the machines I use has an HDMI socket, but
| the hub I tend to use has one so that's usually fine.
|
| 5. It's not fine on my XPS13, which for some reason can't
| power both its own screen and the external screen when
| plugged into the hub, and it goes into a flickery loop as
| it tries, fails, and resets. So that's either lid-closed-
| only, or is the only device connected over USB-C as a
| direct connection, which means an extra plug to plug in
| for only that laptop, and I end up fiddling with the
| screen controls every time I switch to it.
|
| This is supposed to be a unified ecosystem but it just
| falls apart in practice, and my desk has never had more
| wiring all over it. I get that I'm an outlier here: two
| work laptops, two personal laptops, and regularly needing
| to use any of them, but there's nothing I'm trying to do
| that's outside what USB-C claims to be within its sphere
| of capability. Maybe the problem is the hub I've got but
| if that's the case I can't see how you're supposed to
| make better purchases. The ecosystem just seems to be
| broken.
| tracker1 wrote:
| Sounds like you would be better served with a Thunderbolt
| dock.
| rhaway84773 wrote:
| It's also standardized, so you don't have to only pick
| ports that Framework decides are valid. You can also add
| 3rd party ports of your own choosing.
| TomK32 wrote:
| Bricklink list 76527 unique Lego parts, including Duplo.
| So much for the "fewer SKUs". There's also 15155 mini
| figures.
| aqfamnzc wrote:
| I agree with your point, but generally when people say
| "like LEGO" they mean "modular". Not that you can build
| literally any shape the way you can with actual LEGO.
| cstrahan wrote:
| Compare 76527 unique Lego parts to number of elements in
| the power set of those 76527 Lego parts -- imagine if
| each combination also had its own skew. That's the sort
| of comparison being made -- providing simple components
| and letting the user combine them as they see fit means
| managing fewer SKUs than otherwise. This logic does not
| change with respect to the number of simple components --
| if Framework wanted to provide module for 76527 distinct
| peripherals, that's 1 SKU for the laptop plus 76527 SKUs
| for the modules... which is a lot less than selling
| 2^76527 distinct laptops for every set of peripherals
| (leaving aside size constraints, and the fact that many
| people actually want more than one of the same
| peripheral).
|
| Additionally, fewer is fewer, regardless of scale.
| 999,999 of something is fewer than 1,000,000 of
| something.
|
| So yes, the "Lego approach" would mean fewer SKUs.
| warner25 wrote:
| My wife and I each got an 11th Gen Framework in late
| 2021, and I think it's mostly this - e.g. my wife wanted
| an HDMI port and I didn't - but I've also found reason to
| switch ports around a few times. It's certainly not
| everyday, but I've had a few different workspace
| arrangements where sometimes it was better to have my
| charging port on one side or the other; not strictly
| necessary, but nicer for cable management. Next month I
| might borrow my wife's HDMI port when I need to give a
| few presentations.
| jefurii wrote:
| I occasioanlly set my Framework down in a place where
| it's more convenient to have power and/or HDMI on the
| other side and it's simple to rearrange the modules.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| This is pretty much my angle.
|
| My 14inch macbook pro has a power jack(magsafe), three
| Thunderbolt ports, an SD card slot, HDMI, and a really low-
| noise, high-power fantastic 3.5mm. About the only thing I
| really would ever want is ethernet but even then I probably
| would rather dock the machine over TB anywhere I would use
| that. It is just is so much better than plugging in 4
| cables.
|
| (Side note: It's kinda surprising that mankind has not
| invented a smaller RJ45)
| goosedragons wrote:
| There's loads of laptops with RJ45 jacks that fold up to
| take up less space when not being used. There were also
| PCMCIA ethernet cards where the jack pops out and you
| insert the cable downwards. I don't think Apple cares
| enough about ethernet on laptops anymore to bother.
| Personally I find the choice of SD card slot puzzling.
| USB A or ethernet would have been far more useful IMO. I
| have exactly one device with full fat SD and it's a 10
| year old Wii U.
| djur wrote:
| Regular SD cards are still common in professional
| cameras, and I heard a lot of loud griping from
| photographers when the built-in card reader was removed.
| tcmart14 wrote:
| This is a confusing part for me since professional
| photographers are one of the demographics that Apple
| tries to target. Seems like they would have never gotten
| rid of it. Granted, I could also say that it may be
| ridiculous for cameras to still need SD cards in them.
| But it is easier for 1 smaller set of devices (Macbooks)
| to support the other (cameras) than all of the others to
| support the smaller subset of devices.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| > Seems like they would have never gotten rid of it.
|
| Like HDMI, or USB-A, or MagSafe.
|
| The 2016 macbooks were...something.
|
| FWIIW though...Modern Mirrorless cameras tend to have
| high-performance USB-C. Some also have internal storage.
| But the value of swapping media in a camera is critical
| for organization however. Many Cameras also have dual SD
| slots for mirroring.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| >There's loads of laptops with RJ45 jacks that fold up to
| take up less space when not being used.
|
| I've had one, thing was pretty flimsy and required
| finagling to use. Meh.
|
| > Personally I find the choice of SD card slot puzzling
|
| Something like 90% of the photography market uses a Mac.
|
| I heard probably more hoopla about that SD card slot than
| anything else when it was announced.
| dehrmann wrote:
| When you look at the options, they would have been better off
| just adding all those ports. 2x USB-A, 2x USB-C, SD, HDMI,
| and maybe ethernet. Sure, you can do more in theory with the
| modular approach, but aside from USB-C, those are all decade-
| old ports, so there just isn't much need for arbitrary
| expansion.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| > never had a laptop where those parts failed before any
| other parts
|
| HDMI port is first thing to die on last _two_ laptops. Thanks
| to thunderbolt, I didn 't have to junk the more recent
| laptop, but I do need a dongle for HDMI which is mildly
| infuriating.
| mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
| Yeah, HDMI is a notoriously failure prone connector I've
| found. I avoid it if I can, though I don't have any use for
| it on my laptop. My Thinkpad has one, could be dead I
| suppose since I never use it :P
| graeber_28927 wrote:
| I don't actually know, but the FW "abuses" splitted thunderbolt
| connections to get to those features, which I must imagine
| needs beefier controllers and is more energy intense, than
| solving e.g. microSD in a more direct/integrated way, without
| thunderbolt in the middle.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| microSD cards are often just using USB that's routed on the
| PCB.
| tracker1 wrote:
| I'm frankly surprised that audio doesn't do this, even for
| more desktop. I'd much rather if desktop case mfg's put a
| $10 usb dac on the front of the case to a USB 2 header on
| the motherboard. Would definitely sound better.
| yunohn wrote:
| > take a significant amount power, even when *sleeping*, up to
| 2-6W for the latter two
|
| What... how, why? I think it's unacceptable for a laptop in
| sleep mode to be draining energy at that rate. Must be a bug, I
| refuse to believe they tested this and though it's ok?
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| Because, as I kinda expected when this first was launched, The
| replaceable modules come at a cost of not just internal size
| but also structure. You can't just cut out the corners but
| actually need to re-enforce everywhere you cut out. Then, where
| they put the card slots normally contains speakers in this
| category, so they needed to move those down to the battery
| area. Finally, every internal component needed to be packaged
| for repair. (Also, I'm not sure about the choice to go dual
| 2280s on a 13 inch)
|
| https://images.idgesg.net/images/article/2021/07/framework_5...
|
| Note how remarkably large the speakers are, how much structure
| is around the battery, and how much the logic board is pushed
| down. We all hate the reduction in reparability in modern
| macbooks but look at the outcome:
| https://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2021/10/macbook-pro...
|
| This is a 14 inch Macbook Pro. It fills every last inch with
| equipment that, each on their own, are best in class. The
| battery is 30% bigger. The Speakers are louder and have more
| bass, the system is designed to handle far more wattage from
| the SOC.
|
| The Framework laptop is a great first attempt, but I'm not
| really convinced they are quite there yet. They really need to
| drop the Macbook Air design and go for boxy here to maximise
| volume. It absolutely needs a dedicated GPU option.
|
| Having a laptop a lightly technically minded person can repair
| easily makes little sense if it isn't targeted at their niche.
| Generally you start deep in the niche and move mass-market as
| you expand.
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| _> Then, where they put the card slots normally contains
| speakers in this category, so they needed to move those down
| to the battery area._
|
| Does Framework even need embedded speakers? Why not just rely
| on external wired or Bluetooth speakers, or headphones,
| instead, and use the space for a larger battery.
| m_0x wrote:
| > Having a laptop a lightly technically minded person can
| repair easily makes little sense if it isn't targeted at
| their niche.
|
| I disagree. There's value in a laptop that can be easily
| repaired/upgraded for non tech people. And I mean that.
| People that will only use their laptops for zoom, lightweight
| internet browsing and stuff like that.
|
| Because, they will fucking break something and better to have
| it easily repaired than having to go a specialized center.
|
| Keep in mind I'm not talking about people that can afford new
| iphone every year but people that can afford a mid-budget
| Android phone every two-four years.
|
| > Generally you start deep in the niche and move mass-market
| as you expand.
|
| Isn't that how you piss away your niche market?
| asoneth wrote:
| > There's value in a laptop that can be easily
| repaired/upgraded for non tech people
|
| How does the price of a Framework today plus upgrade
| modules in three years compare to a cheap laptop now and a
| new cheap laptop in three years? Obviously the former is
| better for the environment, but if you don't break even on
| your investment in a Framework laptop by the first upgrade
| then it's going to be a very, very hard sell for most
| consumers.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| I totally get the upgrade angle for non-technical
| people...but you need to convince them that they want
| it...and that it is worth Framework's frankly large
| premium.
|
| Then you get to the fact that this machine is incredibly
| poorly sold if that is your market. The pre-configured
| options are almost insane. $1050 for a machine with 8GB
| ram..or $400 more to get 16GB because they paired it with
| CPU and Storage upgrades? Of course you can go DIY but keep
| in mind this is for lightly-technical users. Then a user
| needs to pick their port loadout.
|
| It is overload and a lot of money for anyone who isn't
| technical...but if you ARE technical...this thing is
| basically a bad ultrabook in use. You can get a like-spec
| (1240p, 8gb, 256) Asus Zenbook 14 OLED...for $500 dollars
| less!
|
| That's my gripe. I love the repair angle. The expansion
| cards are downright silly for most users. The money is
| basically nuts for prebuilt. And, ultimately they made a
| non-touch Surface Book 3..rather than a Macbook Pro.
|
| > Isn't that how you piss away your niche market?
|
| Well yeah. It's also how you continue to exist outside a
| niche. Some companies manage to do both. I would argue that
| the current top-end Macbook Pro is a downright niche
| product compared to the rest of their lineup. See also: The
| Mazda Miata. Niche, well loved, technical, co-existing.
| okasaki wrote:
| > It is overload and a lot of money for anyone who isn't
| technical...but if you ARE technical...this thing is
| basically a bad ultrabook in use. You can get a like-spec
| (1240p, 8gb, 256) Asus Zenbook 14 OLED...for $500 dollars
| less!
|
| And 8gb is all you will ever have on the Asus, since it's
| soldered to the board.
|
| So the comparison between the two is completely dishonest
| because the Framework is an upgradable computer that can
| be used for decades, and the Asus is a toy which will be
| rusting in some 3rd world landfill in two years.
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| The 8GB is fair...but the Framework being upgradable for
| decades is...uh...pretty absurd. You don't even know if
| the company will exist next week. The only actually
| standardized upgradable part is the Storage and Memory.
| The Zenbook also has upgradable storage. The CPU is
| soldered to the proprietary board with their own battery
| design and own display. The battery is roughly as
| upgradable as on the framework if not less convenient.
|
| Personally, the idea is all pretty oversold. If the
| motherboard was standardized and had a swappable
| CPU..maybe..but this is just a laptop with marketing. The
| Dell XPS 15 has the exact same upgrade path as the
| Framework..but also a 15 inch display and dedicated
| graphics. Any number of MSI laptops support upgrading
| ram. The idea is nobel...but not novel.
| okasaki wrote:
| Ultimately, RAM capacity is what makes old computers
| usable for light use, or junk.
|
| There are still people using the thinkpad x61 (2007)
| today. It came with 512MB-2GB ram, but you can put up to
| 8GB in it. 8GB and a SSD is enough to comfortably run the
| latest Linux and Chrome and is pretty decent on such a
| little computer.
|
| If it had a soldered 1GB it would be junk.
|
| 8GB soldered ram will make your Asus junk in 2039 (2023 +
| 16 years), but 64GB in the Framework has a much better
| chance of being usable.
|
| Laptop manufacturers (and clueless crony reviewers) say
| that the ram is soldered to make the laptop smaller, but
| units like the Framework clearly show this is bullshit.
| They're just doing it to stop you from extending the life
| is old hardware.
| endemic wrote:
| I agree with this. My personal laptop is a 2010 MacBook
| Pro, which is way past its expiration date, but was kept
| usable because I maxed the RAM (8GB) and installed a
| hybrid SSD. I was/am annoyed that Apple laptops no longer
| have user-serviceable parts, but I'm coming to terms with
| investing up front for that same longevity.
| csdvrx wrote:
| > Laptop manufacturers (and clueless crony reviewers) say
| that the ram is soldered to make the laptop smaller, but
| units like the Framework clearly show this is bullshit.
| They're just doing it to stop you from extending the life
| is old hardware.
|
| Totally! Also for on die/soldering being allegedly the
| only way around hardware issues "requiring" the RAM to be
| physically as close to the CPU as possible, Dell CAMM
| standard shows that there are other way!
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| > We all hate the reduction in reparability in modern
| macbooks but look at the outcome
|
| There are two diffetent problems with repairability - one is
| making it easy for a dilebtante to replace parts.
|
| The other, is making parts and schematics avaliable so that a
| specialist can repair it. You don't actually have to change
| the design. This is what Luis Rossman is talking about
|
| > Dedicated GPU
|
| Yeah I only buy laptops with GPUs. Honestly laptops outside
| power user/gaming niche rarely need things replaced
| agloe_dreams wrote:
| > There are two different problems with repairability - one
| is making it easy for a dilebtante to replace parts. I
| would probably argue that this is framework's primary angle
| on it, which is why the cost in internal volume is so high.
| hk1337 wrote:
| > consider buying 4 USB-C expansion cards, or at least a mix of
| 4 USB-A or USB-C cards, as they use less power than other cards
| and you do want to fill those expansion slots otherwise they
| snag around and feel insecure
|
| The connectors for the expansion cards are all USB-C too, so if
| it's beneficial to have connection further in instead of right
| at the edge, you could go without an expansion card for a slot
| at all.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| > Why does such a relatively big and heavy laptop have such a
| comparatively small battery?
|
| I hope they provide a beefier battery.
| kayson wrote:
| I would love a 15" framework with the power issues resolved that
| I can use an egpu with. It would be a great replacement to
| hauling an SFF pc around.
| Palomides wrote:
| whoever designed the SD card module should be embarassed by that
| sleep power usage, it's totally possible to drop into microamps
| during idle periods
| sourcecodeplz wrote:
| 30k words but not one picture of the laptop smh.
| re-thc wrote:
| A picture is only worth a 1k words. I ask for 30 pictures to
| make up for it!
| sneak wrote:
| > _On the downside, there 's a bit of proprietary firmware
| required (WiFi, Bluetooth, some graphics) and the Framework ships
| with a proprietary BIOS, with currently no Coreboot support.
| Expect to need the latest kernel, firmware, and hacking around a
| bunch of things to get resolution and keybindings working right._
|
| > _Like others, I have first found significant power management
| issues, but many issues can actually be solved with some
| configuration. Some of the expansion ports (HDMI, DP, MicroSD,
| and SSD) use power when idle, so don 't expect week-long suspend,
| or "full day" battery while those are plugged in._
|
| Meanwhile, the M2 Macbook Air is $1200 and does run all day
| (literally 100% more battery than this thing). It's screamingly
| fast, has a better display, better keyboard, WAY better GPU,
| insanely better speakers, better proprietary boot firmware, is
| smaller and lighter, and runs Linux well now thanks to the heroic
| efforts of amazing hackers.
|
| Yes, you must put $3 pigtails on all your USB-A connectors in
| your home and office (but the upgrade means you can never plug
| them in backward ever again).
|
| Unless you're into masochism or work at Intel, why would anyone
| buy this machine?
| rejectfinite wrote:
| >Unless you're into masochism or work at Intel, why would
| anyone buy this machine?
|
| People dont want/cant run macOS?
| [deleted]
| roughly wrote:
| I mean, you're asking why anyone would buy a pickup truck when
| a sports car is so much faster and holds the same number of
| people. I've got both, they're different devices.
|
| To answer more directly, though - the Framework is both a hobby
| and a market signal for me. I wanted a repairable laptop with
| an OS I can control and I don't particularly care about the
| rough edges that come with that. Call it masochism, but that's
| pretty much what any hobby looks like in the modern age of
| plenty.
| sneak wrote:
| These are both sports cars; they are both sub-15", sub-4K
| 8-ish core all flash notebooks ("ultrabooks", in the
| parlance). They run the exact same OS. It's the exact same
| product category.
|
| One is slow, chonky, and inefficient, however, for basically
| the same price.
|
| They sell a v6 automatic transmission ICE Mustang, too.
| [deleted]
| varispeed wrote:
| I wish there was something comparable to Apple when it comes to
| performance and battery life.
|
| Are there any corporations working on something that could
| compete with M1/M2 in laptop space?
| esskay wrote:
| IIRC a lot of the issues with competitors and battery life are
| an issue for Windows, and not their hardware. As long as
| Windows remains a hunk of junk they can't get close to Mac
| battery life levels without you having to cart around a much
| heavier battery.
| tomnipotent wrote:
| > are an issue for Windows
|
| Nope.
|
| https://www.phoronix.com/news/Windows-Linux-Power-Dell-XPS
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| ThinkPad X13s (Snapdragon ARM) either meets or even beats
| Apple Silicon Macbook battery life. We need to note that it's
| the CPU making all the difference here. The intel Macbooks
| always had mediocre battery life.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| It's not just the hardware--it's the software. Apple gives more
| shits about power efficiency (and general respectfulness toward
| system resources & maintaining responsiveness) in software than
| anyone else building major consumer software
| platforms/ecosystems/operating-systems does. Apple Silicon is
| indeed near-magical, but iOS and macOS/OSX devices have been
| beating the competition on UI responsiveness and battery life
| _often while having smaller batteries_ for years and years,
| including in the Intel Mac days. I became a convert in part
| because I was issued an Intel Macbook for work around 2011 and
| it was the first time I 'd ever felt like I didn't need to
| carry my power brick everywhere.
| solarkraft wrote:
| I maintain that most manufacturers just don't give a shit
| about quality - probably because they compete on price, not
| user experience. I can't think of any manufacturer that seems
| to actually care about issues that people who use Apple
| devices would consider glaring and unacceptable.
| xd1936 wrote:
| I'm super excited about Framework as a company. They're doing all
| the right things imo. Their next product announcement is in ~10
| days.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccpsyRipHlk
| shaicoleman wrote:
| Regarding the Shipping Trivia section, the "How Overnight
| Shipping Works" video by Wendover Productions is a good resource
| to learn more
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qfeoqErtY
| t344344 wrote:
| > Cons the 11th gen is out of stock
|
| I really wanted to like Framework laptops. I travel a lot and
| break laptops frequently. I really liked IBM Thinkpads, was all-
| in on Dell onsite warranty when it actually worked...
|
| But I just got the cheapest MSI Modern. It has ok hardware, 64GB
| RAM, two SSDs, bunch of ports... Repairability is nice if you
| actually can get support and spare parts next day. Without that
| its just a marketing BS.
|
| Today laptops are just disposable consumer goods. "Repairability"
| is a freedom to swap SSD from laptop #12 to laptop #13. Now all I
| need is a screwdriver and credit card to buy next laptop.
| sanitycheck wrote:
| What's happened to the Dell onsite warranty? I last had a next-
| day on-site part replacement 2 years ago and it all went as
| smoothly as usual.. (UK)
| izerik wrote:
| MSI Mosern are really good bang for the buck. I did some
| research about some budget laptops for a friend under 500$ and
| MSI won, not only by the specs but also from an extensibility
| standpoint (non-soldered RAM slots).
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Today laptops are just disposable consumer goods.
| "Repairability" is a freedom to swap SSD from laptop #12 to
| laptop #13. Now all I need is a screwdriver and credit card to
| buy next laptop.
|
| Not really, if you're using Bitlocker chances are high that
| it's tied to the TPM keyset and depending on what's broken it
| is difficult to recover them.
| t344344 wrote:
| I run Linux. I have microsd card with bootable Linux kernel
| and encryption keys. Laptop has fake bootable livecd and luks
| partition.
| doubled112 wrote:
| This is a big reason to prefer password based drive
| encryption, or at least something that doesn't tie the key to
| your hardware.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Sadly, impossible to do on modern Apple machines (where the
| T2 co-processor handles all the crypto), and difficult to
| do with Windows as Bitlocker uses a TPM module by default
| [1] if it's available and modern enough. You'd need to
| manually mess around to disable TPM usage.
|
| (Side note, does anyone know if there is a workaround to
| allow multiple passwords for Bitlocker?)
|
| [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-
| us/windows/security/informati...
| bootsmann wrote:
| I think you can do PIN + password by fiddling around with
| the group policy settings iirc (similar trick for PIN +
| TPM maybe you can find results for that first and then
| build on it)
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| To me the bigger takeaway is that if it's important enough
| to encrypt, it's important enough to keep backed up
| regularly. Even with password-based encryption, if your
| drive/laptop is stolen you're no better off than you
| would've been with key-based encryption (potentially worse,
| as password-based may be more practical to bruteforce).
|
| On the other hand if the data is backed up properly, at
| worst you've lost between an hour and a day of work
| regardless of if the laptop gets lost, is stolen, bricks
| itself, or is subject to a highly localized short-lived
| black hole. You restore and go on with life.
| bootsmann wrote:
| BitLocker has a recovery mode, either through your Microsoft
| account or through a 48 digit key that unlocks the disk on
| any hardware. If you have a dual-boot you will run into this
| from time to time, its not a big issue.
| al2o3cr wrote:
| [flagged]
| starkparker wrote:
| The review makes a lot of hay over needing DP and HDMI cards for
| a multimonitor setup, but even on Linux the USB-C expansion card
| supports DisplayPort altmode, MST hubs, and power delivery
| passthrough on all four ports. Each port has its own Thunderbolt
| 3 and PD controller. (The DP expansion card is just an altmode
| pin converter, and the HDMI card is an HDMI-to-DP converter,
| which is probably why it constantly consumes power.)
|
| You might need a dock if the other three ports aren't enough, but
| you can connect power and two external monitors on one port.
| e-Minguez wrote:
| Meanwhile, they cannot be purchased in Spain :(
| darthrupert wrote:
| Those idle energy usage stats look pretty damned good. If the
| numbers are correct, they're beating Apple Silicon.
| selimnairb wrote:
| But only after spending how long tuning things. This is what
| keeps me on macOS. I'm not a 19yo with time to compile kernels
| and tweak my XFree86 config anymore. Maybe when I retire in 20
| years...
| selimnairb wrote:
| I should mention that I like what Framework is doing and have
| been tempted to buy one. Don't mean to take anything away
| from them. It's just not for me right now.
| input_sh wrote:
| It's author's choice to run Debian on a laptop that provides
| first-party OS.
|
| It'd be like blaming Apple for Asahi Linux issues, but with
| even less of a substance (at least Debian doesn't have to
| reverse engineer Pop! OS improvements).
| tankerkiller wrote:
| It looks like a lot of the "tuning" was specific to Debian. I
| did not have any of the issues with things like the touchpad,
| scaling, etc. with Ubuntu or Pop_OS. And most of the power
| related tweaks are the same tweaks most people running linux
| have to do anyway for laptops because the Distro's almost
| never come configured with the libraries required and setup.
| starkparker wrote:
| Ditto with Fedora. The 6.y kernel line fixes a lot of
| problems that aren't Framework-specific but generally Intel
| and Alder Lake issues. (A lot of those problems, configs,
| and tuning, even on Debian, aren't relevant on the 11th-gen
| Framework.)
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Buy a machine with first class Linux support the same way
| you'd buy a machine with first class macOS support if you
| want to use macOS but don't want the hackintosh experience.
|
| System76, for example, ships laptops with custom power
| management daemons that tune things for you automatically,
| and provide you with power saving/performance profile buttons
| in the system tray if you want control.
|
| GNOME ships with a similar power management daemon that
| handles things automatically, as well.
|
| I'm also in the "I don't want to tweak my computer" camp, and
| in my experience, modern Linux is much more sane and stable
| than it was in the XFree86 days.
| esskay wrote:
| >Buy a machine with first class Linux support the same way
| you'd buy a machine with first class macOS support
|
| Genuine question: Does such a machine exist that isn't a
| heavy lump of plastic with a very stupidly positioned fan
| intake under the laptop right where your knee would be?
| lhl wrote:
| Idle power consumption is good, but sadly as soon as you get
| into near-idle/light usage (eg, listening to Spotify in the
| background, or even running a bash script echoing to your
| terminal, the power jumps a lot (I place the blame mainly on
| Intel 12th Gen). In my experience, despite also having
| extremely long idle battery life, for regular web browsing,
| watching YouTube, light typing tasks, my 12th-gen Framework
| tends to get about 5h of battery life (I tested a number of
| scenarios including seeing how little load was required to
| reduce battery life here for those that are interested:
| https://github.com/lhl/linuxlaptops/wiki/2022-Framework-
| Lapt...)
|
| On Notebookcheck's standardized WiFi v1.3 test, the Framework
| gets 447 minutes while an 8C MBA M2 gets 910 minutes (just over
| double).
|
| On my most recent trip, I ended up throwing the towel and
| getting an MBA M2 since my Framework's battery life really
| wasn't cutting it and for my use cases, MBA gets _over_ double
| the runtime, making it a lot more suitable for all-day travel
| days /transcontinental flights, media offloads, etc.
| jonathantf2 wrote:
| I really like the idea of mine but the terrible battery life in
| both Windows and Linux make it basically an unusable portable
| machine.
|
| I've just ordered a MacBook Pro 14" (even though it was
| horrendously expensive) and I hope I can eBay the Framework.
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| As much as I hate macs or any other Apple products, I admit
| that the MBP 14 or any mac with the Apple Silicon is simply
| irreplaceable.
|
| I searched to the end of the earth for a comparable Linux or
| Windows laptop with no vain. If it's Windows (+WSL), then I
| have to deal with Windows as a platform that I find awful.
| Adding to that, the poorer battery life and screen, keyboard,
| touchpad and speaker quality compared to Macbooks. Coming to
| Linux, brands like Framework haven't seemed like they've fully
| gotten over the reliability issues as of yet, and the battery
| life is a huge problem.
|
| I took the eventual jump into an M1 Pro MBP 14", and I like
| every bit of time I spend with it. It's a stellar all-in-one
| device. The OSX platform is clean, versatile and removes a lot
| of headaches and manual overhead I would have to deal with if
| using a Linux desktop from time to time. And the battery? Lasts
| the entire day.
| jonathantf2 wrote:
| I'm a Windows admin by day - I tried to daily drive Linux for
| a while on my main home PC but had issues and ended up just
| going back to Windows 10 which I've never had any issues
| with.
|
| I (as of the past year) now own an iPhone and AirPods and
| have been quite impressed with the experience so I'm going in
| hoping I'll enjoy using macOS - having seen it from my
| perspective at work (managed without MDM/ABM, hopeless
| issues) it's been a pretty bad experience but for home use
| that shouldn't be an issue at all.
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| Trust me, Windows 10 with WSL is just great in a lot of
| ways - I just found myself really shooing away Windows as
| an OS platform, but I also saw that it came a really long
| way compared to 10 years ago.
|
| I would say the hardware on Mac is what takes it the extra
| mile for now, if Windows laptops end up catching up, it
| will be an interesting fight to watch.
| jonathantf2 wrote:
| I plan to get a VM up (or RDP) since I'll need lots of
| Windows only utilities and I usually just SSH into a
| Linux server if I need that toolset.
|
| I see Windows get a lot of flak all over the internet and
| while I agree that the Home version is an ad-riddled mess
| I've never had it reboot automatically on me, delete my
| files or install apps without my permission on Pro/Ent. I
| know that macOS has it's annoyances and quirks but I'm
| willing to power through those if it means a better
| device as a whole.
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| Oh great, I still have my Win 10 Pro License I bought
| years ago, but never really used it much. Is there any
| other difference from the Home version that makes it more
| developer-friendly?
|
| BTW, for the UX gaps that I saw in OS X vs Linux/Windows,
| I was fortunate enough to have found some apps that will
| help there, and I've been quite happy with the quality
| they offered as well (albeit being paid software)
| jonathantf2 wrote:
| It seems Microsoft locked a lot of the stuff I use down
| on Home, a lot of registry keys that you can tweak don't
| work and MMC is useless. You also can't remote desktop
| into it.
|
| This script [0] is part of our deployment process at work
| and I run it on my home machines as well, the Pro version
| has helpful ads for Office instead of TikTok etc, this
| removes them all and sets some sane defaults.
|
| I've noticed the paid apps thing about Apple - even on a
| jailbroken iPhone the tweaks cost 99p here and there as
| opposed to rooting an Android phone where all the modules
| you'd use are FOSS.
|
| [0] - https://community.spiceworks.com/scripts/show/4378-
| windows-1...
| qudat wrote:
| My review that I keep updating: https://bower.sh/framework-vs-mbp
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Great laptop in general but the glossy screen drives me crazy
| every day. Instead of focusing on work I'm checking my hair and
| teeth. :-/
|
| Also the near-necessity of 1.5x scaling is problematic is some
| situations. In short, the screen is the Achilles heel of this
| machine.
| netsharc wrote:
| The QR code bit interested me, but the issue he describes has
| been fixed, you can test it by scanning the QR code on this
| image:
|
| https://yeokhengmeng.com/2021/09/review-usage-and-repair-of-...
|
| The encoded information goes to a URL shorterner
| https://fr.mw/[removed_extra_characters] that redirects to a
| human-readable URL (e.g. guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop
| +DIY+Edition+Quick+Start+Guide/57 ). fr.mw seems to be owned by
| Framework so the chance of them independently disappearing should
| be low. And making it a redirect means if they ever do a
| restructuring of their website, they can just update where the
| redirect target of the fr.mw link.
| starkparker wrote:
| The line in the review about not bothering to tell them about
| the QR code issue because they interpreted "filing a support
| ticket" as corporate codespeak for "throwing the feedback away"
| is sad, because Framework's tech support is about as thorough
| and good at following up as I can remember, going back to at
| least IBM-era ThinkPad days.
| Brajeshwar wrote:
| I definitely like to like Framework, but more for experimentation
| and fun - something I can have that is OK not to be reliable. I
| might, in-fact, get one just for keepsake but in all honesty, who
| is the target audience for Framework?
| Dalewyn wrote:
| >who is the target audience for Framework?
|
| Linus Sebastian and Louis Rossman.
| jna_sh wrote:
| FWIW on the reliability front, I've used mine as my daily
| driver for over a year now and haven't had a single issue.
| ncallaway wrote:
| I've been using a Framework as a daily driver on Fedora for
| over a year. I've had one (pretty minor) issue with the device
| over that time. The lid spring was slightly lose, and it would
| slowly close over time when holding it on my lap. They were
| quick to send a replacement, that was easy to install and
| totally resolved the problem.
| freedomben wrote:
| I can't speak for Framework but if I had to guess: everybody
| who needs a laptop is the target audience. With Windows and
| ChromeOS being first-class options, the only unserved class
| would be macOS users.
|
| It's not just a laptop for tinkering, it's a laptop that can
| easily be repaired/upgraded. Even non-technical users benefit
| from this should something break, or after a few years when the
| processor is a little slow and they can upgrade it without
| throwing out a perfectly functioning laptop. It also helps
| reduce e-waste by not requiring discarding perfectly fine
| components, which is better for everyone on the planet. If
| you're somebody who discards laptops like kleenexes and
| wouldn't even bother taking it in to a repair shop if it
| breaks, you could still donate it and give someone else an easy
| shot at a repair.
|
| As far as reliability, I've been using one for daily driving
| for a year and a half and have had no reliability issues
| whatsoever (besides a webcam that broke, but that's because it
| fell 6 feet onto concrete, but that's hardly the latpop's
| fault). On the contrary, I was able to buy just the little
| webcam module and fairly easily replace it, so now my webcam
| works again!
|
| I can't think of any demographic (that needs a full laptop) for
| which I wouldn't recommend a framework.
| slaw wrote:
| Linux is still not first-class option.
| warner25 wrote:
| When I was looking for a new laptop in 2021, the price and
| availability of Framework was very good compared to other
| laptops with similar specifications at the higher end, like 32
| GB of memory. The ability to repair and upgrade was icing-on-
| the-cake for me; not worth paying a _big_ premium, but I didn
| 't feel like I was paying a premium at all for it.
|
| Then my wife was frustrated when her three-year old laptop
| started having battery problems, and our attempt to replace the
| battery failed. The ability to repair became appealing to her,
| because buying a whole new laptop seemed so wasteful and
| inconvenient.
|
| I know we're a sample size of two, but we haven't had any
| issues with reliability (setting the aside the time when I
| beta-tested a new BIOS version, but that was my choice and I
| knew it was a beta-test).
|
| With that said, I do think that Framework should just double-
| down on serving the niche tinkerer and Linux crowd, because
| normal consumers have no interest in choosing and swapping out
| components for themselves, nor understanding what BIOS version
| they have and how to update or rollback.
| cassepipe wrote:
| After I had to replace all the plastics and keyboard and
| battery of my laptop, and each time it was a time consuming
| let's hope I won't break something moment, I decided my next
| laptop would either super-repairable or super solid. (ie. no
| brittle plastics)
|
| M1 being too expensive + Asahi Linux not being ready, I went
| for the Framework. Even though the M1 seems like a wonder
| machine, I would have had to choose the cheapest options with
| no possible upgrade ever and be satisfied with it. I'd rather
| spend my money on a company that shares my concerns. Fuck
| luxury.
|
| So I guess I am the audience ? I paid more than what I was
| willing to spend for it.
|
| And works just great. The screen size is a bit small for my
| taste but hey it's also more portable now.
| mfer wrote:
| I'm typing this to you on a daily use machine that's running
| pop!_os, has a CalDigit hub connected, and is driving two 30
| inch displays. My only issues are what I do to myself with my
| Linux setup.
| Max-Ganz-II wrote:
| I have a 12th Gen.
|
| It's the best laptop I've owned.
|
| (I've had a Samsung ATIV book 9, and before that a high-end Sony
| Vaio, both 13 inch).
|
| One thing I must mention in particular : the keyboard is _die
| for_.
|
| I had no idea a laptop keyboard could be like this.
|
| I used my Samsung keyboard for many years, perfectly happily -
| but now I can't use it. It is now so unbelievably flat and
| lifeless. I am now forever spoiled for lesser keyboards.
|
| I worked on power management, not much work was needed, and I get
| 11 hours battery life on a 90% charge.
|
| (Basically, use powertop to figure out what processes were using
| a lot of power (turned out to be Tor and WINE), and then also
| realise anything plugged into the USB ports took a lot of power,
| and finally that the powertop power optimization needed to be re-
| run after a reboot. That got me down to under four watts, but it
| means no mouse - mouse adds about three watts, which is too
| much.)
|
| I'm very happy also that reduced battery charge levels (I keep
| mine at 50% these days, now the power cuts are a thing of the
| past) are available in the BIOS, and also full battery disconnect
| (I'd like it even more if I could change battery charge level in
| software - but the key issue is the functionality is present).
|
| I love the exchangable ports - currently I have 2 USB-C and 2
| USB-A, which will in time change to 4 USB-C. I also have an
| ethernet port, should I need it, and HDMI.
|
| The screen resolution is not 4K, which I had on my Samsung, and
| thought before I bought it could be a problem, but it simply
| isn't.
|
| I also love the community. That it's a niche laptop with a highly
| computer literate community makes it really pleasant.
|
| FYI, I'm running XFCE on Debian.
| jancsika wrote:
| What's wifi like?
| Max-Ganz-II wrote:
| Seems fine. I don't know what the theoretical max is from the
| router (it's not my router), or the wifi in the laptop, but
| I've seen 1mb/sec coming down, so it seems to be doing
| everything it should be doing.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| works well for me
| teruakohatu wrote:
| > mouse adds about three watts, which is too much.
|
| Have you tried a different mouse?
| Max-Ganz-II wrote:
| No. It's also three watts for a USB stick - I think it's not
| the device.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| I have one as well, running Ubuntu. ~~Very~~ happy with it.
| (edit: maybe not "very happy" but "happy")
|
| I agree the keyboard is excellent. But the trackpad is crappy
| -- the one blight on this otherwise good laptop, IMO.
|
| Actually, the second issue I have with is the power drain when
| in sleep mode. Apparently this is fixed on Windows but not
| Linux. You experience that as well?
| ceiphr wrote:
| There are two solutions to the sleep problem right now:
|
| 1. Change from s2idle to deep. The tradeoff is slower wakeup
| times but less power drain when sleeping.
|
| 2. Sleep then hibernate. After a certain amount of time
| (maybe 2hrs), the system will go into hibernation from
| s2idle. This is nice because there's almost no power drain
| when the system goes into hibernation, but you can have quick
| wakeup times when the system is still in s2idle. The tradeoff
| being, it can be a bit of work to implement and you can't
| have secure boot/kernel lockdown.
|
| [Fedora35 hibernation](https://gist.github.com/eloylp/b0d64d3
| c947dbfb23d13864e0c051...)
|
| [Fedora 36+: Hibernation with enabled secure boot and full
| disk encryption (fde) decrypting over
| tpm2](https://community.frame.work/t/guide-
| fedora-36-hibernation-w...)
| Max-Ganz-II wrote:
| Trackpad crappy in what way?
|
| It seems utterly normal to me?
|
| Yes, the power drain is sleep mode is abnormal - I've read
| that the USB ports are to blame, and it will be fixed in
| upcoming firmware.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| 1. The force needed to "click" varies depending on where
| you put your fingers. Clicks near the top of the track pad
| take more oomph
|
| 2. AFAICT you can't change the scroll speed on Fedora (not
| sure if that's Framework's fault but still super annoying)
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Gliding is okay, but clicking is not responsive enough, and
| click-drag is hard to execute (particularly compared to the
| Macbook).
| Max-Ganz-II wrote:
| Ah, I understand.
|
| Yes, I can see all of that.
|
| I don't have trouble with it, but I do know what you mean
| when you say it :-)
| tomnipotent wrote:
| > Trackpad crappy in what way?
|
| I like it less than my Macbook, but more than my Thinkpad.
| Find it just a bit too sensitive, so I'm always
| accidentally dragging things when scrolling.
| jeffbee wrote:
| That kernel compile time is pretty respectable. On the top-of-
| the-line Intel desktop CPU the allmodconfig build takes 11
| minutes, twice as fast but drawing 5x the power.
| jckahn wrote:
| As soon as Framework offers a 3.5K+ touchscreen and DDR5 RAM, I'm
| in. Without those I'll probably go with another Dell XPS 13 for
| my next machine.
| loufe wrote:
| I just bought a new laptop, almost went Framework. It came down
| to size and screen quality for me, given my use case. The one-
| size-fits-all 13,5 is a little small for my taste, and now that
| they're available I couldn't justify NOT going with a non-OLED
| screen. I want modularity, good repairs, the option of a FR-CAD
| keyboard and I'm okay with paying more, but I'm not willing to
| sacrifice those other aspects. I hope they catch up in time for
| my next laptop in >6 years.
| peanuty1 wrote:
| Wow, I wonder why they went with a 13.5" screen size over 14.5"
| or 15".
| [deleted]
| tracker1 wrote:
| Popularity... 13.x" is the most sold. Using an M1 air for my
| personal laptop, and my work laptop always runs docked at
| home (thunderbolt). Larger laptop sizes just don't sell as
| many, though the Framework niche (currently) might be skewed
| a bit from the general population.
|
| Though, would have liked a 3:2 aspect ratio that a handful of
| laptops have moved to.
| numpad0 wrote:
| It appears LCD procurement is one of hardest task in making
| any consumer devices. Anything else can be bought or
| outsourced with an email and a payment, but LCD seem to need
| a connection.
| foxandmouse wrote:
| Which one did you end up going with? I'm in the market for a
| new laptop and as much as I love MacBooks I want to be able to
| boot into Linux
| akvadrako wrote:
| Not the top-poster, but I'm also looking for basically the
| best OLED laptop for Linux, and I think I'm going to get the
| ASUS Zenbook 14X (UX3404).
| loufe wrote:
| Indeed it was a 14X! I bought the M5402 last night which I
| believe is a little beefier. It's on sale right now in
| Canada for CAD$999:
|
| >https://www.amazon.ca/ASUS-VivoBook-OLED-
| Laptop-14-5/dp/B09Y...
| akvadrako wrote:
| Looks nice, and the AMD CPU is preferable. I'm going with
| the Zenbook over this solely because it has 32GB of RAM.
| webdevver wrote:
| > This blog post has been maturing for months now. It started in
| September 2023 and I declared it completed in March 2023
|
| Now _thats_ dedication - a review from the future!
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> a review from the future!_
|
| Hope the reviewer also got the sports almanac.
| anarcat wrote:
| I did, and Marty, you will be my slave now.
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