[HN Gopher] Researchers develop blood test for anxiety
___________________________________________________________________
Researchers develop blood test for anxiety
Author : FollowingTheDao
Score : 76 points
Date : 2023-03-08 12:27 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.sciencedaily.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.sciencedaily.com)
| Footkerchief wrote:
| Study link: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-023-01998-0
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| Of the genes they note in the study (GAD1, NTRK3, ADRA2A, FZD10,
| GRK4, and SLC6A4), I have significant polymorphisms in GAD1,
| NTRK3, and SLC6A4, But I also carry NOS1AP and GRIN2B changes
| which also are more highly correlated with anxiety.
|
| The NTRK3 was a new one for me.
|
| I have Aspergers, Schizoaffective Bipolar Disorder and a
| panic/anxiety disorder.
| drewbitt wrote:
| I would have loved this. I had been fine my entire life until one
| day I started feeling panic and subsequently had several panic
| attacks that week and developed the related agoraphobia. It would
| have been great to see what biomarkers had changed and ideas on
| where this suddenly came from. The current treatment doesn't care
| about the underline reasons as much as immediately giving you a
| SSRI.
| Llamamoe wrote:
| Can you think of ANYTHING unusual around that time, physical or
| mental?
| drewbitt wrote:
| I was taking a lot of supplements - basics like magnesium and
| fish oil, all the way to choline, some mushrooms, amino
| acids, EGCG etc. Nothing crazy or illegal but certainly more
| than the average person takes. Unfortunately even after
| stopping for months the panic disorder didn't go away.
| Otherwise at that time work was easy and my life was not
| stressful. It's a mystery.
| macawfish wrote:
| I wonder if this has to do with methylation status? From what I
| remember there are different metabolic processes that enable
| shifting between sympathetic and parasympathetic modes,
| specifically the glutamate/glutamine cycle. People have different
| ways of handling the nutrients that support this process (e.g.
| various B vitamins). Switching back and forth between alert and
| resting states isn't free, and people who have to do it a lot,
| for whatever reason, can get exhausted in the process. For some
| people taking vitamin B12 can be a relief, whereas for other
| people it can worsen anxiety.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| FYI, most of the time when you read an article that reduces
| complex functions to "methylation status", it's pseudoscience.
|
| Methylation is a real biological function, but it has been co-
| opted by alternative medicine peddlers as a convenient (though
| incorrect) explanation for everything. It's part of a new wave
| of alternative medicine that takes real scientific concepts
| (methylation, glutamate/glutamine cycles) and tries to work
| backwards from symptoms to assume the status of various cycles
| in the body.
|
| One key feature of this pseudoscience is that it often has dual
| explanations for everything such that everyone will identify
| with it. For example, when they say that Vitamin B12 can make
| some people feel better but some people feel worse, they're
| setting up an explanation that everyone will identify with: If
| you give someone a supplement and ask them to see if they feel
| better or worse over the coming hours, days, and weeks,
| eventually they'll have a good or bad day and assign it to the
| supplement. The methylation pseudoscience people capitalize on
| this effect by claiming that all of their interventions will
| either worsen or improve people's symptoms, which creates
| confirmation bias everywhere.
|
| One of the easiest ways to debunk the methylation alternative
| medicine pushers is to examine how almost nobody claims to
| actually recover from their treatments. It's always a back and
| forth of thinking they're taking too much B12 or folate or
| other supplements because they've been conditioned to believe
| that all of their symptoms are traceable back to methylation.
|
| To be clear, B12 and/or folate deficiencies are real and
| measurable conditions that should be treated if present.
| However, the idea that you can modulate all of the body's
| processes up and down by taking varying levels of B12 and
| folate supplements is pseudoscience.
| arrosenberg wrote:
| > Methylation is a real biological function, but it has been
| co-opted by alternative medicine peddlers as a convenient
| (though incorrect) explanation for everything. It's part of a
| new wave of alternative medicine that takes real scientific
| concepts (methylation, glutamate/glutamine cycles) and tries
| to work backwards from symptoms to assume the status of
| various cycles in the body.
|
| I'm not gonna say you are wrong about this, but methylation
| is also a super hot topic right now among legitimate
| researchers and biotech companies. It's completely possible
| that anxiety-response is modulated by methylation of specific
| sites that produce cortisol and other biomarkers. Agree that
| it's not _driven_ by methylation per se, but the biological
| response could be tested and proven by analysis for specific
| methylation patterns.
| ipaddr wrote:
| You argue to debunk requires no one to claim recovery then go
| on to say B12 deficiencies are real and can be treated. B12
| deficiencies often need to be continuously treated which
| means you can debunk them. But they are real.. just not when
| a group I dislike says so? Being anti pseudoscience puts you
| in the same category as someone who is pro pseudoscience;
| both groups misuse facts to present their side and justify
| their position as the correct side in a holywar
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > You argue to debunk requires no one to claim recovery
| then go on to say B12 deficiencies are real and can be
| treated
|
| B12 deficiencies are real and can be measured. Everyone who
| has a B12 deficiency and supplements B12 back into normal
| ranges will improve. This is an example of real science.
|
| Using B12 and Folate to treat pseudoscientific
| "methylation" issues that are presumed (rather than
| measured) based on vague symptom reports that go in both
| directions (e.g. some people feel better, some people feel
| worse) is the pseudoscience.
|
| > Being anti pseudoscience puts you in the same category as
| someone who is pro pseudoscience;
|
| What?
|
| > both groups misuse facts to present their side and
| justify their position as the correct side in a holywar
|
| No, one side uses real science and the other side uses
| _pseudo_ science. That's literally the definition of the
| word.
|
| Measurable B12 deficiencies are real and supported by the
| science. Explaining everything, including anxiety, as
| caused by "methylation status" is not.
| ipaddr wrote:
| You missed my point and took a side in a tribal war. Then
| try to discredit the other side by putting in a qualifier
| of 'real' to change the meaning of science to something
| you can control by limiting who fits into this new group
| to whoever you decide.
| majkinetor wrote:
| The same is true for ortdox medicine, I don't know why you
| included only alternative medicine "peddlers".
| sarojmoh1 wrote:
| Anyone here actually find something that works for their anxiety?
| a13o wrote:
| I picked up a few useful tricks from Cognitive Behavioral
| Therapy that I use to this day, but the best lessons came from
| eastern philosophy.
|
| Anxiety isn't a disease - you don't 'have' it. Everyone
| experiences anxiety. It's a temporary signal, like stomach
| butterflies or being starstruck. What happens next after
| experiencing these signals is up to you. You can let your ego
| take control, or acknowledge the experience and let it pass.
| Sometimes it's a useful signal to act on. Many times it's not.
| Think of your body like a tuning fork, the anxiety is you
| vibrating in reaction to a new experience. There's nothing
| inherently good or bad about new experiences, it depends
| experience to experience. Therefore the anxiety reaction should
| be taken under advisement but confers no knowledge about what's
| to come, and shouldn't be treated like a warning indicator.
| verteu wrote:
| Which meds have you tried? Usually after trying 1-5 types,
| people find one that helps significantly.
| sethrin wrote:
| So far: alcohol, sympathetic friends. Gonna give zoloft a shot
| whenever they get around to filling the script.
| vjk800 wrote:
| Alcohol works so well for me that I'm sort of scared of it.
| Often even after just one or two drinks I become the happiest
| and most sociable person on the planet.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| > alcohol
|
| Weed's healthier. Alcohol can help with a lot of the same
| things, but the side-effects of terrible sleep and hangovers
| can make the problem worse the next day. I understand weed is
| also supposed to harm sleep quality, but IME it's not even
| _close_ to as bad as even a light-buzz amount of alcohol, and
| weed 's never given me a hangover. And it doesn't make you
| gain weight (directly--munchies, LOL, but then again I get
| those on alcohol, too, personally).
| sethrin wrote:
| Alcohol has maybe given me a hangover once. I also don't
| typically have more than two drinks in a day, and if I am
| having a bad enough day to want to use alcohol then that's
| going to be closer to 2pm than bedtime. Cannabis use is
| pretty continual these days, being locally legal, but I
| don't find it very effective for anxiety. But actually one
| of the main things I'm using for mood regulation these days
| is programming. It's hard to think about code
| simultaneously with anything else, and learning coding was
| among other things a process of learning emotional
| regulation with regards to coding, because it's not like
| the computer cares if you find a bug challenging.
| standardUser wrote:
| I don't have any problems sleeping with low-to-moderate
| amounts of alcohol and I certainly don't get hangovers
| unless I'm really getting drunk. Then again, we all handle
| different substances differently. For me, weed usually
| causes anxiety, sometimes acute, severe anxiety. And
| paranoia. Indica strains seem to do this much less, but
| also make me incredibly sleepy. High CBD strains seem to be
| best but are not easy to find.
| jwmoz wrote:
| Weed will probably exacerbate anxiety especially anything
| that has a cerebral high.
| eikenberry wrote:
| It doesn't exacerbate it, though it doesn't cure it
| either per-say. For example you still feel your skin
| crawling while high, but it transforms the interpretation
| of the sensation from super-annoying to mildly amusing
| and completely ignore-able.
| eddsh1994 wrote:
| Alcohol is borrowing happiness today from tomorrow. If you
| self-medicate with alcohol it _will_ be worse in the
| longterm. Don 't fall down that rabbit hole.
| jddil wrote:
| Alcohol temporarily helps but you pay it back with interest
| over time.
|
| It sounds trite but exercise and sleeping/eating better is
| really the only thing we have proof that works. (zoloft can
| help kickstart the changes but it won't reduce anxiety long
| term)
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| It depends on the dose.
| sethrin wrote:
| I think I have more of an acute issue with anxiety, at the
| moment mostly driven by financial insecurity combined with
| unexpected medical expenses. Like what I really need right
| now is a few thousand dollars in travel expenses and for
| this precertification to go through, but failing that I
| just need to make it from one day to the next.
| notdarkyet wrote:
| Cutting out alcohol was probably the biggest one. The effects
| of alcohol on anxiety can last days for me. Low carbohydrate
| diets seem to really help as well for me. Minimizes highs and
| lows.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| Ethanol this will slow down NMDA receptor function by
| lowering NMDA receptor population density.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2158789/
|
| So the anxiety is your hangover and the NMDA receptor
| population density returns to normal.
| solarmist wrote:
| This is interesting because I've only been able to get over
| my anxiety after being prescribed memantine for
| sensory/audio processing disorder (SPD/APD).
|
| Looking back I was constantly in a state of hyper-awareness
| that was so intense I couldn't understand speech in real-
| time or move smoothly (keeping a beat took 100%
| concentration so I couldn't learn an instrument) without
| total concentration. I also had hyper-sensitivity to touch.
| All this was from severe CPTSD growing up.
|
| Memantine is an NMDA uptake inhibitor (probably). But I
| don't really know anything about what role NMDA plays.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| NMDA is a receptor, not a molecule.
|
| Memantine slows the amount of calcium that enters the
| NMDA receptor in a way similar to magneisum. Zicn also
| inhibits NMDA but by a different mechanism
|
| https://ars.els-
| cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S00283908070022...
|
| It is the calcium in the cell that triggers nerve
| excitement and oxidative stress that triggers the
| anxiety. I am over simplfying all of this.
|
| I have the opposite problem. I have slow NMDA receptor
| function but my Anxiety is caused by issues inside the
| neuron (NOS1). Magnesium gives me anxiety.It may be that
| my porr NMDA receptor function helps me a bit.
|
| Really the root cause is low Cyclic Adenosine
| Monophosphate (cAMP) signaling in the neuron stemming
| from low Nitric Oxide or slow NMDA receptor function.
|
| https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/2bc96085-ac06-4
| a3b...
|
| Klonopin and ethanol increase the flow of GABA into the
| cell and this
| solarmist wrote:
| Thank you for clarifying. I know a bit about the brain
| and brain chemistry, but I was unfamiliar with NMDA
| receptors.
|
| Unfortunately the rest of your explanation was too
| technical and I didn't follow any of it. Can you explain
| what NMDA receptors are for and what the link to anxiety,
| in either direction, is?
|
| My anxiety wasn't caused by this, but I was able to treat
| it because of the memantine. I just stopped memanitine a
| month ago after about 5 years and all the symptoms seem
| resolved now.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| You are saying that your anxiety was not casued my NMDA
| receptor changes, but it was. Traumatic events change the
| function and density of these receptors.
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/1301605
|
| NMDA receptors allow calcium into the neurons. The more
| calcium in a neuron the more excitable it is, like in
| hyper-arousal.
|
| By taking the memantine you allowed you possible grow
| more healthy neural pathways, away from the
| hypervigilance and towards calmness. I am assuning you
| have been in therapy?
| solarmist wrote:
| Sure, on a technical level, but the cause of it,
| globally, was several layers up the abstraction stack. It
| feels like blaming the add and multiply instructions for
| poorly written firmware/software, especially since it
| resolved itself once I addressed the issues I listed
| below.
|
| Thank you for the paper. That's just the kind of thing I
| was hoping to find.
|
| The experience of going on memantine for the first time
| was like becoming in sync with my body for the first time
| that I could remember. My body, mind, and thoughts
| stopped being out of sync, like a video that wasn't
| streaming well. That allowed me to slow down (and not try
| to anticipate the ten different ways a conversation could
| go), stop rambling, and listen to what people were saying
| to me instead of what I expected them to say.
|
| I'm only seriously pursuing therapy now; hyper-
| independence is another symptom of my CPTSD. I learned
| all this by trial and error and reading ungodly amounts
| of self-help books (moving to psychology books lately),
| helping my wife through losing her parents at 21, and
| teaching my wife to work through her PTSD.
|
| What allowed me to be calm was learning to trust, at
| least to some extent, people again (which I didn't even
| realize was an issue) and learning to express my emotions
| (I had nearly total blocks on sadness and fear). Then
| slowly processing the traumatic events from my childhood.
| After I forced myself to cry about one event (the last
| time I cried as a child) and allowed myself to feel fear
| about things I couldn't control, my chronic anxiety
| faded, and now it is situational. I continue to work on
| the underlying causes of these distinct reactions.
|
| It is very difficult because fear of being like my dad or
| being poor drove me so hard for 20+ years to become a
| software engineer and make it into a top-tier company.
| Without that desperation, I have to relearn (learn?) how
| to live and do things.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| Yeah, I get it. My condition is more of a genetic
| sensitivity to foods/environment. Yours was more caused
| my the environment alone.
|
| Different causes, different cures.
|
| Glad you are doing therapy. While it had no impact on my
| anxiety it helped me deal with the ramifications.
| the-angry-dome wrote:
| I'm definitely curious as to how you got to such a
| nuanced diagnosis / underlying mechanism for your
| anxiety. After an overnight sudden change, I'm told I've
| been stuck in 'fight or flight', constantly, for about 20
| years. I've gone from MRI to many medication trials to
| genetic testing / perfunctory bloodwork, to therapy to
| yoga to sriracha enemas (kidding), but never got anywhere
| beyond feeling like the science overall is nascent at
| best, and a total load of snake-oil quackery at worst.
|
| Your miles seemed to have played out differently. How did
| you go about arriving at the underlying pathology, so to
| speak, and how confident are you that it is 'the right
| answer'? Are you under the care of a doc / neuro / psych?
| And if so, do they take your NOS1 explanation into
| account when treating you?
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| > After an over night and sudden change
|
| This is important, you need to look at your total
| environment to see what changed. It could be anything
| from air pollution, diet, EMFs. Anxiety always has a
| trigger and it is not always psychological.
|
| > I'm definitely curious as to how you got to such a
| nuanced diagnosis / underlying mechanism for your
| anxiety.
|
| I went through everything you did, but once I noticed so
| many people were doing the woo woo route and nothing
| helped, so I decided to learn about neurobiology,
| genetics and nutrition. Almost everything you will read
| about anxiety and mood is wrong. (For example, low
| serotonin is the result of high GABA, and it is the high
| GABA that causes depression, not the low serotonin or
| dopmaine, that is just a result of the low GABA.
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01730-4)
|
| I was anxious as a child, and had OCD, so I knew it was
| genetics. My mother had mental health issues as well all
| up her side of the family. 20 years ago I ended up on
| disability and doctors were of little help, just felt
| drugged all the time, so I set off to research
| neurobiology since I had the spare time and lived next to
| a university research hospital.
|
| Then when 23andMe appeared I jumped on it and it was all
| right there. But it took years for more research to come
| out which narrowed in on my problem. First it was genes
| like CACNA1C and SLC6A4, but when I saw many immune genes
| linking to my Ankylosing Spondylitis (ERAP1) it became a
| bit more confusing. I kept seeing so many genes that
| needed zinc flagging in my genome. High does zinc fixed
| my autoimmune issues, as did long chain omega 3 (FADS1,
| FADS2 also linked to mood). But the studies I began to
| read about NOS1AP matched my genetics so I dove head
| first into that pathway at it ll became clear how
| glutamate was casueing my anxiety and paranoina and
| psychosis.
|
| I also have changes in GCH1 that controls the amount of
| serotoin and dopmaine we make. I am in a study at
| Stanford as they feel it is linked to ME/CFS. I was
| diagnosed with CFS years ago but I only have infrequent
| symptoms now.
|
| I have one doctor who knows I know what I am talking
| about and gets me some tests that might help me see what
| is going on but this is all research level stuff, nothing
| and doctor will see for years if ever. I am on Medicare,
| fully disabled, so it is hard for her to get some weird
| tests but she tries. She also helps me get meds I feel
| might help that might not be her first thought. But meds
| are no answer, they work until they do not.
|
| Glutamate/GABA imbalance and nitric oxide will soon be
| recognized as the drivers of mood disorders.
|
| I am confidant I am right because all my friends have see
| the change in me. Plus I no longer needs meds.
|
| If I had you genetics I could probably see what is going
| on with you. Let me know if you want me to take a look:
| followingthedao@fastmail.com
| biomcgary wrote:
| I have a son diagnosed with autism, but I suspect that
| SPD/APD would be more accurate. How were you diagnosed
| and why was memantine prescribed?
| buildsjets wrote:
| As an OTC supplement, I occasionally use Sceletium Tortuosum
| extract, which is marketed under the trademark Zembrin.
| Sceletium Tortuosum is a South African succulent plant that has
| been chewed by the San tribe people for thousands of years
| under the name Kanna. (recall N!xau |=Toma in "The Gods Must Be
| Crazy")
|
| There have been recent peer reviewed studies showing it both
| safe and effective, and placebo or not, I have noted relief of
| my symptoms. It's also rather inexpensive compared to a lot of
| other supplements, at around $0.30 for a daily dose.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8124331/
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828542/
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8762184/
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| Yes, I have. But yiou will really need your genetics to figure
| it out. There are many pathwyas that when slw or fast that can
| lead to anxiety.
|
| I have my genome and found that I carry a change in a gene
| called NOS1AP. This means I do not produce enough NOS1
| (Neuronal Nitric Oxide Synthase, nNOS, CAPON) which leads to an
| influx of calcium through the NMDA receptor.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25612209/
|
| https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CAPON_Binds_Nitric_O...
|
| So basically I have low NOS1 and typically higher amounts of
| glutamate and there for I am very excitable.
|
| Klonopin as needed helps in emergencies but I rely on a few
| dietary changes to limit bio-active compounds from inhibiting
| NOS1. These include limiting a large range of phenol's that
| inhibit NOS1 and avoiding air pollution (air purifier with
| activated carbon).
|
| P5P (B6) helps as well because I have issues truing glutmate to
| GABA via the GAD1 enzyme. I also eat lower protein and zero MSG
| like flavorings (Pea Protein Extract)
|
| Doing these things has lead me off of all my meds, which is
| huge.
|
| I also have latent CMV which at times effects me since it
| increases NMDA receptor function. CMV also gave me ankylosing
| spondylitis and lung nodules.
|
| https://bmcneurol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-23...
| zzzeek wrote:
| lexapro, mindfulness meditation, and exercise (in that order)
|
| someone else mentioned alcohol curbing too. definitely that as
| well, as well as overall attention to sugar, caffeine, protein
| intake, etc.
| arrosenberg wrote:
| If you talk to yourself a lot I'd recommend a pet to talk to
| instead. Externalize your self-talk and try to make it nicer.
| Use the pet to rubber duck solutions to life's problems.
| StrangeATractor wrote:
| These are mostly for managing your baseline anxiety levels:
|
| Valerian capsules help, but get a good brand like Oregon's Wild
| Havest, valerian tends to pick up lead in the ground. Valerian
| helps a lot with panic attacks, too.
|
| Make a habit of drinking rooibos tea. After it builds up in
| your system it counters cortisol (in my experience, very
| effectively). Mountain Rose Herbs sells quality rooibos.
|
| Cut out caffeine, or try to limit it to green tea. Green tea
| has L-theanine in it, which helps with anxiety. I'd like to
| point out that caffeine doesn't leave your system completely
| for quite a while and reduces your quality of sleep leading to
| cognitive decline over time.
|
| Eat well, sleep well and go outside more, preferably involving
| vigorous exercise.
|
| (I have no affiliation with the brands mentioned above but if
| you're going the herbal route, quality is an important factor
| and those brands have worked quite well for me)
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| Therapy has worked for me in the past as well as some
| medications (very low doses of psychiatrist prescribed
| benzodiazepines). Mostly I find that exposure to what makes me
| anxious makes it lessen, but I've yet to find a way to deal
| with my generalized anxiety as it'll often go hunting for
| something else to be anxious about. I cope with the generalized
| anxiety by trying to be as structured in my life to reduce the
| chaos and noise.
| j0hnyl wrote:
| When I have anxiety spells, I force myself to do something
| creative like draw or paint. It helps, but this is not exactly
| available if you have a panic attack in the middle of a work
| meeting or something.
| corobo wrote:
| Cognitive behavioural therapy, specifically for this: evidence
| vs assumption.
|
| Making assumptions is part of life, but it is important to
| verify a lot of them. The system responsible for keeping you
| out of danger fires in a "better safe than sorry" manner. If
| you never train this response then it'll be inaccurate and
| it'll fire off all the time and you get anxiety. Likewise if
| the system has been trained by an entire school career of
| bullying or negativity it'll need recalibrating (are you going
| to get bullied as an adult for standing out? At least it's much
| less likely)
|
| For example I wasn't going to go to a meet-up because I thought
| I wouldn't like it, or fit in, or whatever other reason - I was
| feeling anxious.
|
| Looking back at actual times I've gone beyond my comfort zone
| in this way I realised that most times I end up a better
| person, with a new friend, or at least enjoyed doing it. Worst
| case I didn't get harmed in any way. Evidence overrules the
| assumption.
|
| You don't want zero assumption of course, feel free to assume
| jumping off a cliff without anything to stop you hitting the
| floor at high speed will be a bad time, but for things other
| people are able to do without harming themselves or others at
| least give it a quick pros and cons check before bottling it.
|
| Unfortunately it needs it real world experience. Think of it
| like working out; you won't get ripped just because you know
| how to use the machines, you've gotta use them too. On the
| positive side every time you push yourself successfully - and
| these don't need to be massive, the snowball effect works here
| - it's more evidence for next time. I now write down my
| thoughts and feelings before and after so I can actually go
| back and look at them in future if needed.
|
| I'd highly recommend nerdy types try out CBT if it's a
| possibility, especially if they don't feel like the "how does
| that make you feel?" type of therapy is worth doing (I need
| ideas and solutions, not a soap box!). It works really well for
| me anyway, it's like debugging my brain.
|
| Standard disclaimers: Don't use this comment as an alternative
| to medical advice. What I know may not be what the therapist
| taught me, this is my interpretation of that information. This
| isn't the only thing I've learned in CBT but it is pretty
| foundational for it to work well. As far as I know so far.
| Works on my machine.
| edmundsauto wrote:
| Exercise, therapy concurrent with ketamine treatment.
| jddil wrote:
| Exercise. It's the silver bullet.
| vjk800 wrote:
| I don't have the source at hand, but I read somewhere that in
| many hunter-gatherer societies, pretty much all people walk
| 15-20 kilometers every day. Coincidentally, this is
| approximately equivalent to the the amount of exercising I
| need to do calm my anxiety down.
|
| Maybe anxiety is just some kind of exercise-deficiency. After
| all, we were made to move around, it's entirely plausible
| that many biological processes in our bodies just don't work
| well while sedentary and our anxiety is trying to tell us
| that.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| > After all, we were made to move around, it's entirely
| plausible that many biological processes in our bodies just
| don't work well while sedentary and our anxiety is trying
| to tell us that.
|
| Muscle contractions function as the heart for our second
| circulatory system.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymphatic_system
|
| A few animals have an _actual_ second heart for that, but
| we don 't--we have to move to make it work well.
| ryanklee wrote:
| I promote exercise as an excellent way to combat and prevent
| anxiety/depression/etc., but calling it a silver bullet is
| just wrong. Some people can do all the right things and still
| feel like absolute shit at the end of the day. There are wars
| that cannot be won.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| No, it's not, not for everyone. Exercise induced anxiety is
| real for many people.
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003331828.
| ..
| janeerie wrote:
| Thank you for this. There are multiple comments in this
| thread saying exercise is the "silver bullet," but if you
| have a severe anxiety disorder, it often isn't.
|
| I am much less anxious on the days I don't exercise. I
| still do it nearly every day because I want to stay
| healthy.
|
| What works for me? Good old SSRIs. They are my silver
| bullet.
| causi wrote:
| Yeah, and it doesn't have to be "exercise" exercise either,
| just exertion. Go work in the yard. Repair your house.
| Reorganize your stuff. Build some shelves. Change your own
| oil and rotate your own tires. Just do things that involve
| moving your body.
| BoxOfRain wrote:
| I've found valerian root extract can be helpful sometimes but
| it doesn't seem to work for particularly long, whatever the
| underlying compound is it must have a short half-life.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| Valerian root contains valeric acid, which is how they found
| the drug Depakote (Valproic acid).
|
| It's effect has been attributed to the blockade of voltage-
| gated sodium channels and increased brain levels of gamma-
| aminobutyric acid (GABA).
| standardUser wrote:
| Therapy, Ativan, Running, Meditation in roughly that order.
|
| Therapy helped defuse the worst of it quickly and gave me the
| tools to manage it moving forward. Easily some of the best time
| and money I've ever spent, though I consider myself incredibly
| lucky to have found such a compatible therapist.
|
| Ativan was always more of a placebo for me. I never took it
| more than a few times per week and I haven't taken any in
| years. But I still carry one in my wallet at all times, and
| knowing I have that option puts me at ease.
|
| Running for me is a very efficient way of generating that
| after-workout high that tends to eclipse anxiety, at least
| temporarily.
|
| Mediation may be the best tool of the bunch, but I've never
| been able to adhere to a regular schedule. But even on an
| intermittent basis it can be helpful. I believe the form of
| mediation I've practiced would be called mindfulness.
| suby wrote:
| Supposedly Lavender can help with anxiety.
|
| https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/lavenders-game-silexan...
|
| Anecdotally, I bought a two weeks supply and didn't notice
| anything different, but my own self-assessment may have been
| flawed.
| ksenzee wrote:
| My psychiatrist says in her experience lavender takes 6-8
| weeks to show any effect, and it only gets you a 10-20%
| improvement. She prescribes it as an add-on when the existing
| treatment regimen is mostly working.
| jwmoz wrote:
| I've only recently realised I think I have a problem. Last week
| had horrendous migraines and anxiety which I couldn't shift. I
| had to go to the doctors (UK) and beg them to help. I generally
| live healthy, don't really know what else to do.
|
| I'm now noticing my WFH job is starting to get to me so looking
| to go into the office once a week or more.
| vjk800 wrote:
| Heavy exercising, especially aerobic exercising. Something
| light like half an hour walk isn't enough, I have to properly
| exhaust myself calm the fuck down. Some different workouts that
| are usually enough are: one hour of heavy barbell training at
| the gym, 45 minutes of running, two hours of brisk walking.
|
| Also interacting people in a non-bullshit way works but is
| often more difficult to do. Keeping up appearances and roles
| works the opposite, but if I tell people what I actually think
| and let myself be more emotional and less reserved around them,
| I actually feel more connected, which alleviates anxiety.
|
| I think that at the hear, anxiety is born out of insecurity.
| Being connected (in a real, non-pretentious/bullshit way) with
| people raises my security. However, this is often easier said
| than done. I guess exercising works as a sort of a patch by
| reducing my energy levels so much that I don't any left for my
| anxiety.
| jwmoz wrote:
| Martial arts was always my natural medicine. Have not been
| training much the last year or so, hoping to get it back on
| track but it worries me as I can't do that forever as I get
| old.
| Terretta wrote:
| > _Heavy exercising, especially aerobic exercising._
|
| Possibly all this activity means hour(s) of not-stressor
| focus is calming you down. All your "free" time is exercise
| instead of stewing.
|
| To rule out the time, swap these high time consumption
| activities for 4 minutes of HIIT (high intensity interval
| training) bookended by 2 mins warmup and 2 mins cooldown,
| which is proven to have even better metabolic benefits due to
| the 4 minutes of anaerobic intervals (sprints).
|
| It's a shame more people don't know "this one trick". Few of
| us have extra hours a day to gambol about. Most people can
| find 8 minutes.
|
| > _I think that at the heart, anxiety is born out of
| insecurity_
|
| Maybe exactly _at the heart_.
|
| As noted in a discussion here last week, there's a heart-
| brain link for anxiety, heart can cause the brain to feel
| anxious. HIIT improves heart better than, say, beta blockers,
| so it could be the mechanism is something like exercise is
| improving heart which signals less anxiety to brain.
| vjk800 wrote:
| I've had enough lifestyle variation to say with quite good
| confidence that it's the aerobic exercising that helps me.
| Before I learned to manage my anxiety I tried to calm down
| by just, you know, lying down and trying to relax, but it
| never worked very well. My mind would just generate more
| anxious thoughts and it would often get worse, not better
| by just relaxing.
|
| I've also don HIIT and I can confirm that 15-20 minutes of
| HIIT (maybe 5-7 intervals with a bit of warmup) provides
| the same results as one hour of more moderate form of
| aerobic exercising. However, HIIT, when done properly, is
| fucking horrible (several times I've been very close to
| puking afterwards). I still do it maybe once every two
| weeks, but I think I would die if I tried to do a proper
| HIIT workout every day.
| Melatonic wrote:
| I am convinced that lack of exercise is exacerbating a lot of
| peoples mental issues (not claiming it is the cause,
| however).
|
| Think about dogs. Anyone who has owned a larger, high energy
| dog knows exactly what happens when they do not get regular
| and intense exercise - they become an anxious mess and often
| become destructive or even self destructive.
|
| Are we really that different from dogs?
| boh wrote:
| I'm glad they figured it out since it was impossible to tell any
| other way.
| gregoriol wrote:
| If there is a possibility for a simple test that gives a quick
| and precise answer, it could be better than someone asking
| someone and interpreting an answer.
| Zealotux wrote:
| >The test examines biomarkers that can help them objectively
| determine someone's risk for developing anxiety, the severity
| of their current anxiety and which therapies would likely treat
| their anxiety the best.
|
| It actually sounds more interesting than the headline suggests.
| loldk wrote:
| [dead]
| derbOac wrote:
| I do research in this area and I sort of bristle whenever an
| article talks about "objective measures" of some
| psychological phenomenon, as if the subjective experience
| isn't really what it's about. So the framing of this article
| really rubbed me the wrong way.
|
| Having said that, I thought this was still interesting just
| in terms of the biochemistry and molecular biology of systems
| involved in anxiety.
|
| I think the most practical utility of this might be in drug
| treatment planning although that tends to not work out in the
| real world as well as it does in theory and research.
|
| Another angle on this kinda mentioned in various places is
| that people come into the clinic claiming extreme anxiety
| when they just want drugs to resell or abuse. But even that
| could get tricky because lots of times people abusing drugs
| also feel anxiety.
|
| One elephant in the room with this paper is they didn't
| really measure anything else. So it has some predictive
| utility in "anxiety versus not" in a select group of people,
| but what if other mood state issues are also moving around
| with it? It's kind of like saying "hey our model predicts
| cats in images" in some database where you've removed all the
| dogs and foxes and otters and so forth and so on. Or maybe
| it's like having a database where all the images with cats
| also have a 80% chance of having a dog, fox, etc.?
| abecedarius wrote:
| It's common for a patient with a chronic mystery symptom to be
| dismissed with "You seem very anxious. Anxiety can cause blah
| blab blah." plus a useless-to-harmful prescription. A legible-
| to-doctors test for 'anxiety', which doctors are expected to
| use, might help reduce this kind of stupidity.
| lapcat wrote:
| The test is simple: if you fear getting a blood test, then you
| have anxiety.
| Temporary_31337 wrote:
| IMO if you're getting a blood test for anxiety, that also
| implies one is anxious.
| efitz wrote:
| I'm not trying to be flippant, but why do we need a blood
| test for this when we have a test already, eg "Do you have
| anxiety? Do you have any of these symptoms?"
| Jiocus wrote:
| Not everyone can identify anxiety symptoms in themselves,
| especially if they have been experiencing them for so long
| it's become 'normal'. There's also those that won't report
| what they are actually feeling, even when asked explicitly,
| for a range of reasons.
| user8501 wrote:
| Seriously. This could be replaced with a one question
| questionnaire. Are you anxious?
| user8501 wrote:
| Researchers are becoming as useless as programmers
| [deleted]
| henriquez wrote:
| This sounds useful for torturers and interrogators. In most
| situations medical professionals can just _ask_ someone if
| they're feeling anxious.
| feoren wrote:
| > In most situations medical professionals can just ask someone
| if they're feeling anxious.
|
| Except they literally refuse to believe your answer. You can
| swear up and down "I was not anxious, I actually felt great"
| and they fire back with "many people don't know when they're
| anxious. You can be anxious without realizing it." It's
| completely unfalsifiable, like the old asylums where everything
| you could ever say is just more confirmation of whatever mental
| illness they already decided you have.
|
| If they don't know what's wrong with you and you don't have
| symptoms that very specifically fit their pre-determined list
| of the 100 things that might ever be wrong with anyone, then
| some use "anxiety" as a catch-all, regardless of whether you
| claim to have it or not. Everyone feels stressed occasionally,
| so there's no objective way to self-report it. My "very
| anxious" might be your "normal Tuesday night". They capitalize
| on this to make it completely impossible to argue with their
| "diagnosis" so they can get you out the door with a magic pill
| to fix all your woes, while they move on to the next patient
| they can give 3 minutes to out of their overbooked 12-hour
| workday. I would do the same if I were completely overworked in
| a trainwreck of a system run by incompetent hospital
| administrators and faceless insurance companies.
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