[HN Gopher] 2023 State of Software Engineers [pdf]
___________________________________________________________________
2023 State of Software Engineers [pdf]
Author : hunglee2
Score : 104 points
Date : 2023-03-06 15:10 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (pages.hired.email)
(TXT) w3m dump (pages.hired.email)
| wainstead wrote:
| "For the purpose of this report, Hired examined software
| engineering candidate interview requests (IVR) and salary data
| from January 2021 through December 2022 inclusive. The data
| included reflects over 68,500 candidates and 494,000 interview
| requests between companies and software engineers on Hired during
| this time period."
|
| Then, I think, the numbers reflect only candidates and companies
| that use Hired, as opposed to the industry as a whole. I wonder
| how many folks land jobs through Hired?
| Our_Benefactors wrote:
| I have had high callback rates from working with hired, as well
| as multi year engagement resulting from an offer through hired.
| These were with companies doing interesting work I would have
| never known I was a match for otherwise. You also need to do
| your own due diligence on the company, because hired is
| structured to take as little time commitment from their
| recruiters as possible (this is actually a good thing because
| it forces the companies on the website to be upfront).
| mrj wrote:
| Yeah there does appear to be bias in their sample since Ruby on
| Rails was their most in-demand skill. Not to knock it or
| anything, but it hardly seems like the number one skill
| industry wide.
| Eumenes wrote:
| I think its naive to rank skills by a framework or library,
| but we're talking about a hiring platform website, used by
| keyword driven recruiters. If they were being more honest and
| accurate, lumping Django/Node would seem more appropriate.
| JVM/Java + C#/MSFT seems like it could stand on its own as
| well.
| atomicnumber3 wrote:
| Especially when it's well-known that many engineers, especially
| senior, are essentially never "on the market". They work
| through their networks, leveraging referrals, and will
| frequently vanish from one job and appear in another without
| submitting a resume, contacting a recruiter, or touching
| anything on linkedin/gh/etc.
|
| Seems like that alone would put a big skew on results. It's
| kind of like the "r/cscareerquestions" effect. There's
| literally only 3 people posting: hapless anxious innocent
| newbies/newgrads, low-marketability folks who are struggling to
| find a position, and people who get off on trolling/doomposting
| and otherwise feeding off the despair of the other two crowds.
| The result being a forum that perpetually makes it seem
| impossible to get hired as a software engineer (even during the
| covid hiring spree!).
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > Especially when it's well-known that many engineers,
| especially senior, are essentially never "on the market".
|
| > Seems like that alone would put a big skew on results.
|
| Yes it does. Same with internship pipelines at unicorns or
| FAANG. Some students intern at the same company multiple
| times during undergrad and transition full time after
| graduation. They appear to never be on the market.
| johnzabroski wrote:
| > It's kind of like the "r/cscareerquestions" effect.
|
| I canceled my ACM subscription in my late 20s because I got
| tired of ACM basically doomposting about careers. Last night
| I was going through my Gmail folders and found a bunch of old
| ACM doomposts I never deleted from their CSCAREERS mailing
| list.
|
| So, it's not just reddit that doomposts- Industry veterans
| are just as paranoid and can also serve as Chicken Little.
| lbrito wrote:
| >They work through their networks, leveraging referrals, and
| will frequently vanish from one job and appear in another
| without submitting a resume, contacting a recruiter, or
| touching anything on linkedin/gh/etc.
|
| I literally never heard of this, ever. Not even for staff+
| positions.
|
| I've read something on the lines of "even Tom Hanks sends his
| resume to the director when applying for a role". Hyperbolic
| or not, I've found this to be vastly true.
| Yoric wrote:
| FWIW, I'm a senior engineer and I've been looking for a new
| position for a few weeks.
|
| - I have had a satisfying number of leads from my network.
|
| - I have also been approached by dozens of recruiters both
| through my network, through LinkedIn and through HN "Who
| wants to be hired?"
|
| - I have a profile on Hired, through which I have had _one_
| lead, for a position in which I 'm not interested. Zero on
| HiredSweet.
| tayo42 wrote:
| anecdotally, i know more people that struggle with the hiring
| process then these extroverted super connected senior
| developers that just hop job from job that apparently exist.
| from the group of people i keep in contact with, i think only
| one is doing something like that. also the people we hired
| went through application pipelines and weren't just showing
| up after being recommended
| johnzabroski wrote:
| I know quite a few developers who have a knack for
| following market trends and jumping on the rocket ship
| before it is about to launch.
|
| It's actually not that hard if you think about what filter
| you would apply. The one hard part is finding recruiters
| who specialize in placing people at these companies, and,
| of course, passing the interview (or at least enough
| success that the interviewer doesn't tell the recruiter you
| are a poor quality candidate).
| eulers_secret wrote:
| This isn't my experience. I've interviewed many seniors in my
| time, and also gone on many interviews as a senior.
|
| Networks fail people all the time. Mine failed me because I
| was at one company for a decade(switching teams), and my
| entire network still works there. I don't want to go back, so
| I essentially have no network.
|
| We hired an architect who's entire network was still at IBM,
| similar to me. There's other possible failure modes, it
| happens quite a bit IME.
| atomicnumber3 wrote:
| Ah that's fair, I was being too hyperbolic. I suppose what
| I mean is "a nontrivial contingent [of seniors]."
|
| Also it's worth noting that while your whole network might
| be at IBM still, I've found leveraging "I know X, who knows
| Y, who works at / worked at [target company i want to apply
| to]". They'll usually only be able to give you a "someone I
| know but haven't worked with" referral (some places call
| them just a "candidate lead"), but often it's still miles
| better than putting your resume in the website intake form.
| Going 2 degrees out in your network graph is almost always
| a shockingly large number of people / places.
| bradlys wrote:
| Yeah - it's a super weird take.
|
| Almost all the engineers I know get their jobs through
| random process. They use things like Hired, sending out
| resumes, responding to recruiters, rooftop slushie (no
| longer available), and then some actual referrals if they
| know someone. You use everything available cause you need
| to get multiple competing offers. You're not going to just
| interview at one or two friend's places and then get an
| offer and take it. You're gonna get 5-7 offers and then try
| to take the best one out of those by making them compete
| for one another.
|
| This - turns out - requires a lot of companies and
| interviews and a lot of work.
| neon_electro wrote:
| I have two experiences of _using_ Hired to try to land jobs; I
| got interview requests, I interviewed, but I never found a role
| I was committed enough to or qualified enough for.
|
| Both times I came out without any offers. Definitely have my
| own share of the blame here, but I don't think Hired put a ton
| of high quality leads on my radar for the effort I put in.
| blue039 wrote:
| It's good to see that despite all of the astroturfed "Journalism"
| on the death of remote work the data appears to show otherwise.
| The engineer market dictates the terms of employment. It seems
| that, based on this, remote is here to stay. That's good news for
| myself and others that would otherwise have very little reason to
| stay in tech. For example, the area I've lived in for the last 25
| years has a small tech community. Mostly curmudgeonly old
| companies with a "tech" wing that is chronically underpaid. Think
| $90k for a senior a position. Given how expensive my house has
| become in recent years there's no way that's even possible to
| choke down.
|
| Rails being the most in-demand skill is relatively unsurprising.
| It's becoming the web's very own COBOL. Millions and millions of
| lines of RoR code from over a decade ago needs to be maintained
| and these people are in high demand. I've seen a lot of new shops
| spring up that use RoR too. The trend with these places seems to
| be foreign developers and juniors powering the company. RoR,
| while it has it's problems, is still the perfect tool to extract
| any real power a developer has. It's about as close to WYSIWYG as
| we can come without going to dreamweaver.
|
| It is interesting Python didn't make it into the in-demand skill
| list. I suppose the language is relatively niche still. It just
| feels like an in-demand kill to me because I work in data
| engineering. It's similarly interesting Go scored so high in
| demanded skills. Even outside my field it's still very niche
| despite all the posts you see. It leaves me suspect of their data
| somewhat.
| Yoric wrote:
| I don't know. Almost every back-end position I see requires
| Python (with a few exceptions that require Go or Rust). I
| filter for stuff that hires remotely and/or in France, so there
| is a bias.
| fn-mote wrote:
| > It is interesting Python didn't make it into the in-demand
| skill list.
|
| Since Python is on the top of all of the other lists, I think
| this is a consequence of their methodology.
|
| Demand for coding skill over the market average... well if
| every job in the market requires Python you're not going to see
| a much "over the average".
| polishdude20 wrote:
| Having the CAD amounts in the graph equivalent in length as the
| USD amounts is just downright deceptive.
| rowanajmarshall wrote:
| It's even worse with London, where PS1 is worth about $1.22
| _before_ adjusting for PPP.
| epicureanideal wrote:
| Why do salaries flatten so sharply?
|
| $145k for 0-1 years of experience, rising gradually to only $167k
| for 15+ years?
|
| Is a person with 15 years of experience really worth only 10%
| more?
| atleastoptimal wrote:
| I imagine it's because good engineers are smart enough to
| realize staying an engineer is a thankless job and move to more
| managerial roles.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| If that were true it would mean there would be a shortage of
| experienced engineers which should make them worth more.
| captaincaveman wrote:
| There is, we have a low bar of what a senior engineer imho.
| epicureanideal wrote:
| But the survey uses years of experience, not job titles.
| eddsh1994 wrote:
| $145k seems too high, $167k seems too low. Weird data - juniors
| on high rates are more willing to share and seniors in good
| jobs don't care about these surveys?
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| 145K for remote engineers with 0-1 years of experience? I'm sorry
| - that doesn't seem to match reality from what I have seen.
| synkarius wrote:
| That whole chart seems off.
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| If I can act like a junior developer, I'll take a salary cut
| to 145k just so I don't need to do anything but develop, ask
| stupid questions and be able to clock out after work without
| worrying about any systemic team, company or other structural
| problems. Not even kidding!
| zeusk wrote:
| You'll make more at any big tech as entry level engineer.
|
| I made ~190k on my W-2 after first year at Microsoft.
| [deleted]
| Yoric wrote:
| From what I've seen, this seems to have been the case at some
| point last year in SV-style companies in the US.
| confact wrote:
| Interesting report. Does a similar exist in Europe and Asia? This
| felt a bit North America-focused. I could have missed something
| here.
| itronitron wrote:
| Hired also only serves certain major metropolitan areas, so
| it's even further focused than just North America.
| commandlinefan wrote:
| The charts don't call out whether they're showing average base
| salary, or average TC (including stocks/bonuses/etc.) - I wonder
| if the actual numbers are higher.
| alfalfasprout wrote:
| Yep. Total comp fell a lot at the top and also likely changed
| quite a bit elsewhere too. At least for me, salary is <20% of
| my comp.
| dgs_sgd wrote:
| On page 21 we see that only 25% of engineers consider a
| great/exciting product to be an important work priority, and only
| 24% consider strong mission/vision. Are 3/4 of engineers just not
| that interested in what the company is actually building for the
| world?
| fleddr wrote:
| In our work culture of "toxic positivity" we've forgotten that
| most employees, in any business, care about pay and job
| security first and foremost.
| npalli wrote:
| 3/4 of engineers who use Hired.com. Good data point if you
| expect a certain profile of engineer.
| mywittyname wrote:
| > Are 3/4 of engineers just not that interested in what the
| company is actually building for the world?
|
| Given how many engineers work at basic companies doing basic
| stuff, probably.
|
| There's only so many exciting opportunities to change the world
| out there. For the rest of us, it's CRUD stuff for an insurance
| company.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| _Ask HN: Do I have to do Hired 's coding assessments to get
| interview requests now?_
|
| Question for you all, I've used the same resume and landed jobs
| twice on Hired before, now I have even more experience. This
| round I got 0 interview requests during my 6 week promotion
| period.
|
| The only difference I see is that Hired made some coding
| assessments that employers could use to filter candidates. I
| didn't do them.
|
| Has anyone else A/B tested this? Coding assessments = a bunch of
| interview requests?
| nelzya wrote:
| My guess your salary reqs changed...
| yieldcrv wrote:
| I played around with them during the promotion period, put
| them in line with what other recruiters were telling me (now
| that base salaries are posted publicly in most(?) job
| listings)
| lbrito wrote:
| Probably just timing. Hiring is bad right now.
|
| I got a couple of interview requests 3 weeks into my promotion
| period, didn't take the quizzes.
| OnionBlender wrote:
| I have 15 years experience and haven't received any interviews
| from companies on hired either. I also didn't do the coding
| assessments.
|
| Another factor is that my experience probably isn't in demand.
| All of my experience was writing C++ for devices but only in
| user space. Most C++ jobs seem to want more than just a
| generalist C++ programmer. They want low level embedded
| experience, or backend, or distributed systems, or GPGPU, or
| graphics.
| Salgat wrote:
| I did the basic coding assessment as a Senior Dev and got
| around 12 interview requests at around $200k salary average.
| I'm willing to bet most employers filter for this, since most
| employers already get a ton of applicants either way.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| thanks! that fits my hypothesis. yeah it was hard to
| prioritize doing that when there are so many other recruiters
| and companies in different stages of the interview process
| with their own coding assessments.
| npalli wrote:
| A very specific survey limited to Hired.com so not sure if this
| generalizes. Lot of times a percentage change is provided
| starting from a small base giving the wrong impression (RoR
| having high demand, NLP engineer top role etc..) With that, some
| non-obvious observations from this sample that popped out --
|
| 1. All remote roles settling to around $160K in the US. This
| can't be good for those in the high cost areas like SF, Boston
| etc.. where SOL is easily 2x of the lower cost cities. How will
| people in high cost regions make remote employment work?
|
| 2. How is blockchain engineer still a thing? I would have
| predicted more than a substantial drop, more like complete
| wipeout.
|
| 3. Rust bottom of the list (least favorite) in engineers
| favorite/least favorite language. I LOL'ed at this one, since any
| Rust topic opens with "most admired programming language 7 years
| a row" statement. Go third least favorite less favored than HTML,
| Java, C++ and SQL (!). Definitely an interesting sample group.
| ravenstine wrote:
| > 1. All remote roles settling to around $160K in the US. This
| can't be good for those in the high cost areas like SF, Boston
| etc.. where SOL is easily 2x of the lower cost cities. How will
| people in high cost regions make remote employment work?
|
| How else are people not in big cities supposed to make in-
| person employment work? Well, besides taking lesser
| opportunities. It seems like tilting the playing field away
| from big (and arguably dysfunctional) cities is the more
| equitable outcome. I think the jig is up for a few cities
| hogging all the tech, and if that changes the rules of
| engagement for city-dwellers and their living situation, such
| is life.
|
| > 2. How is blockchain engineer still a thing? I would have
| predicted more than a substantial drop, more like complete
| wipeout.
|
| A combination of easy money and surveys such as this one being
| largely imperfect. Exacty how many blockchain engineers do you
| know personally? I can't name a one. For all we know, there's 3
| developers with the title of "blockhain engineer" working for
| one company out of the basement of a house and are making
| ~170k.
| balaji1 wrote:
| Let's flip it.
|
| how good is hired.com's performance? how many jobs they fill per
| year?
|
| how many candidates get a job on there? how long does it take
| them?
|
| I ask because there are many job portals these days and I see a
| lot of flakiness, ghosting, etc.
| balaji1 wrote:
| But their marketing worked, I'm going to be signing up sigh...
| Hope it is better than the rest.
| [deleted]
| yboris wrote:
| Where are all these "0-1 Years Experience" salary averaging at
| $145k/year? Is this really an _average_? (see page 29)
| flutas wrote:
| I'm honestly super suspicious of that number as well.
|
| I have 6+ yoe and all the offers I got from their platform
| (while living in LA) were around 120k.
| jstx1 wrote:
| London really sticks out with lowest salaries (compared to US and
| Canada, not to the rest of the UK/Europe) and lowest % of remote
| positions.
| dcre wrote:
| Note that the graph seems to be overstating the difference by
| graphing PS82k as if it was $82k. At the current exchange rate
| it's more like $98k.
| msvan wrote:
| You'd think there would be an arbitrage opportunity in paying
| more $$$ for London talent. Still surprises me that this hasn't
| happened after all these years of huge differences.
| frankreyes wrote:
| Top earning UK dev jobs are usually 200k upwards, already.
| Those numbers don't account for finance and similar
| industries, which they hire directly and don't use Hired
| services.
| onion2k wrote:
| That'd be nice.
| jstx1 wrote:
| How common is this? Even breaking PS150k seems really
| challenging - FAANGs aren't hiring in London right now,
| finance seems to require previous finance experience and/or
| prestigious education even for experienced candidates (I
| don't know if they really require it or just like to put it
| in their job ads); and even companies that pay less
| (PS90-120k) aren't giving me the time of day.
| dom96 wrote:
| It's not just FAANGs that are offering TC that high in
| London. Have a look at levels.fyi if you want to see some
| numbers. Possibly not as prevalent nowadays
| unfortunately.
| jstx1 wrote:
| I know, that's why I mentioned the other companies that
| won't interview me either.
| frankreyes wrote:
| That's what startups are for, at least in the USA people
| hop from job to job to build a reputation.
|
| I call that "trampoline". Jobs that are meant to be
| temporary to jump to the real interest.
|
| The trampoline a year ago was crypto startups. Ponzi,
| probably.
| sebzim4500 wrote:
| I'm making more than that in London. I know similarly
| qualified people in Bristol who make literally a fifth of
| my salary yet for some reason do not want to move to
| London.
| blibble wrote:
| pretty common
|
| as someone who's been a hiring manager for software
| engineers in finance: your problem is likely getting past
| the initial HR filter
|
| they sadly care about all the things you listed
| frankreyes wrote:
| Initial HR filter is to weed out the DDOS of a million
| CVs on a job ad... Look for a backdoor. Friends,
| neighbors, Meetup, colleagues, online forums such as
| Twitter or Discord.
| eddsh1994 wrote:
| Try contracting? I first hit six figures in London as a
| test engineer with 6 years experience and no degree
| WJW wrote:
| I have no special insight into the London market, but the
| fact that it hasn't happened after all these years of huge
| differences probably indicates that the arbitrage opportunity
| is not as large as it appears.
| msvan wrote:
| And in that case, what causes the discrepancy in
| productivity between London and SF?
| Normal_gaussian wrote:
| They've rendered the graph incorrectly, using the native
| currency as the unit instead of the converted USD unit.
|
| Toronto and London should be at 103kUSD and 98kUSD
| respectively.
| dom96 wrote:
| They really should have rendered this graph with the same
| currency. It is interesting that Toronto and London are so
| close.
| timeimp wrote:
| >The most in-demand skill was Ruby on Rails, with engineers
| skilled in this framework and scripting language receiving 1.64x
| more interview requests compared to the marketplace average. Ruby
| on Rails bumped Go from first place in 2022's report to fourth
| this year.
|
| Woah. That's an interesting finding.
|
| I wonder what RoR is doing to make it so in-demand?
| lbrito wrote:
| Same result as 2021.
|
| Must be due to all the "it is dead and forgotten" hate Ruby
| gets :)
| conorh wrote:
| I think there are many RoR projects that continue to run, so
| probably demand still there - we've been maintaining several
| RoR projects for 7+ years. Recently we've stepped into several
| JS projects that have 2-3 competing JS frameworks in the same
| project. Any project becomes difficult to maintain over time
| without a continuous and thoughtful investment of time, but at
| least Rails doesn't have that particular problem of framework
| churn (even if parts of it may change as a whole it has an
| upgrade path that is well trodden). We do a lot of
| React/Next.js etc. work, but for the most part Rails is what we
| reach for (maybe with a sprinkling of React) when we have a
| standard web project, ie. most of them.
| digianarchist wrote:
| Probably advertising skew. I remember Hired being advertised on
| RoR specific boards and sites.
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| RoR enables developers to make a lot of progress on their app
| in a short amount of time... initially. Most developers have
| never seen a legacy Rails app, or are still in the self-deluded
| "this time it'll be different" phase. So they jump
| wholeheartedly into the Rails ecosystem and build their app the
| "rails way". Not knowing the pitfalls, they fall into all of
| them. A few years later, you have a _successful_ Rails app with
| (1) slow, data-coupled tests (2) spaghetti code in your models
| and controllers (3) probably dockerized, relies on heavily
| outdated linux version and no one can update it within a sprint
| so it never happens. So they hire "senior rails" devs and
| throw them at the problem (after all, the initial setup speed
| of Rauls allowed them to be successful and have money now).
| ravenstine wrote:
| This describes a lot of my reasoning for why I left Rails for
| a more frontend/JavaScript focus.
|
| I don't think it's necessarily a problem specific to Rails.
| It's an issue that the Ruby community that they may never see
| as a true problem. To their credit, having a system that
| sucks developers into making simple apps that grow into
| monstrocities seems to have created a ton of job security for
| Rails developers. In terms of developer happiness, I really
| beg to differ once any given Rails application is more than a
| year old.
|
| Rubyists love object orientation and metaprogramming, which I
| personally see as massive mistakes outside of some niches.
| Ruby applications in 2023 _still_ have long chains of
| inheritance, and _still_ employ lots of metaprogramming, and
| _still_ use tons of syntactic sugar, and _still_ think along
| the lines of classes rather than methods /functions, and
| _still_ allow for side-effects on mutable objects. I 've
| found that at least 80% of issues typical to Rails codebases
| are related to those styles of software development. Most of
| those are unnecessary for writing _most_ apps using Rails.
|
| > So they hire "senior rails" devs and throw them at the
| problem (after all, the initial setup speed of Rauls allowed
| them to be successful and have money now).
|
| That's the true black-pill of senior-level software
| engineering. Chances are, as a senior engineer, your job is
| to figure out the mess rather than make sure anything was
| done appropriately in the first place. In retrospect, I
| enjoyed my job as a junior and even mid-level engineer more
| than being a senior engineer because I often got to work on
| new and interesting problems while senior engineers had to
| toil over figuring out some incredibly complicated and boring
| shit created by the previous engineering regime, as well as
| by the junior engineers as a whole. Because the business will
| _always_ be pushing for more features and more deadlines,
| this problem never gets fixed, hence being a senior engineer
| becomes little more than an exercise in Sisyphean futility.
| And the pay is just enough that you don 't go fishing
| instead.
|
| I'm just glad I only spent around 3 months as a senior Ruby
| engineer before switching to JavaScript, despite all of
| JavaScript's faults.
| swagonomixxx wrote:
| I have personally witnessed "legacy" rails apps (were ~4
| years old, Rails 5 was around but we were on Rails 3 IIRC)
| and they are not really unlike normal legacy apps but they
| definitely let a lot of crap seep in due to loads of
| contributors and almost zero ownership on the codebase.
|
| I wouldn't say this an exclusively rails problem though.
| Testing was a complete nightmare, and there was so much
| random middlewares that were "mission critical" but no one
| knew what they did. And as you said, scaling was horrible. We
| had like a hundred servers, each running 20 unicorn
| instances, to serve our API at the scale we had (~5 million
| users or so, I forget the DAU)
| ravenstine wrote:
| > random middlewares
|
| The whole concept of "middleware" in Ruby server
| applications was a huge mistake. Your average Ruby
| developer has no idea how any of that shit works, and it's
| an unnecessary abstraction over taking request data and
| passing it through a function, something that should be
| simple for even a junior developer to figure out. Somehow
| it was decided that having a standard for the shape of data
| wasn't good enough; there had to be a demi-standard for
| modifying request data before it reaches the primary
| application code.
|
| If you have to tell a middleware what order it's supposed
| to run in with relation to other known middlewares, chances
| are the middleware system itself is a poor design.
| plugin-baby wrote:
| > data-coupled tests
|
| I'm intrigued what this means, or how you'd decouple your
| tests from all data.
| ravenstine wrote:
| I can't know exactly what the OP means, but I'm guessing
| they're referring to the tendency for Rails tests to rely
| heavily on the database and its behavior. This technique is
| often rationalized for being a partial substitute for end-
| to-end testing, given that it tests the integration of the
| app with its services, and that's not wrong per se. It does
| come with a penalty because constantly building and tearing
| down the database has consequences in terms of performance
| and state leaking between test cases. A lot of the time,
| this reliance on the database is not (or should not) be
| necessary; it should be possible to test units of the
| application in isolation, even including the
| model->controller->view cycle, without needing to include
| any knowledge about what database or ORM are being used.
| Just building in-memory data on the fly is safer and
| faster, and when tests are faster then developers are more
| likely to run tests frequently and spot issues earlier.
|
| Again, as with many things, it's not a Rails-specific
| problem. It's an issue in many kinds of codebases, and is
| an issue with the Ruby community in general. I understand
| the arguments around coupling tests with the data layer
| implementation, but I just don't agree when it comes to
| most of the useful tests being performed.
| hnzix wrote:
| Rails provides a sensible and productive pattern for MVP but
| doesn't provide much guidance past a certain complexity level
| (Service Objects etc). Once the app grows past a certain
| size, more bespoke architecture needs to be applied and this
| will live or die on the competence of the team. Spaghetti
| code is not inevitable but can result from devs who are used
| to the hand-holding of less complex Rails apps.
|
| Dunno where you are pulling docker from, that is completely
| orthogonal to Rails development.
| ravenstine wrote:
| I took the Docker comment as a sort of dig at Rails teams
| throwing tech at problems in an inappropriate way with the
| goal of overcoming poor decision making. Not sure how fair
| that is since the use of Docker et al is often an exercise
| in cargo cult tech.
| treis wrote:
| It's not necessarily in-demand. It's the ratio of jobs to
| applicants. Both numbers can be low which anecdotally feels
| right for Rails. It's not the new hotness anymore but there's
| still plenty of systems to maintain/expand. Can be hard to hire
| because fewer engineers want to do it but the systems can't
| easily be transitioned to a new language.
| dcchambers wrote:
| Many of today's big tech cos, which were unicorns in the
| 2005-2015 era, were built on top of Ruby/Rails.
|
| Today those companies have diversified their tech stacks but
| for the most part the core rails monoliths aren't going
| anywhere. They need engineers to work on them.
| jcadam wrote:
| Yep, I have RoR on my resume/LN profile from years ago (rails
| 3.x), and I get recruiters spamming me - mostly for legacy
| maintenance/modernization/porting to another stack type jobs.
|
| I've moved on, not so interested in going back...
| return_to_monke wrote:
| because languages that were popular before but aren't now are
| always a hit.
|
| see COBOL for example.
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