[HN Gopher] Self-Host All the Things?
___________________________________________________________________
Self-Host All the Things?
Author : ecliptik
Score : 201 points
Date : 2023-03-05 16:35 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (tedium.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (tedium.co)
| Axsuul wrote:
| Loving the "just right" labels. How does n8n compare to
| Activepieces?
|
| Also those who are looking to dive deeper into self-hosting
| should join us at /r/selfhosted on Reddit.
| ThinkBeat wrote:
| I have tried a lot of different alternatives to Zapier and in my
| opinion, they are not even close in terms of productivity.
|
| I can get things running with little fuzz and it keeps working
| for the most part.
|
| Now that just means it works for my needs and the connections I
| need to make.
|
| I have stopped using Zapier because they are far too expensive
| for my budget.
|
| Now I make do with a few Perl scripts for what I really need and
| ifttt
| MuffinFlavored wrote:
| > Email newsletter tools: Old or new, your pick
|
| Am I wrong to think that most businesses/people pay for Mailchimp
| because getting your e-mail actually delivered into the inboxes
| of your target audience/customers is non-trivial? aka, you're
| going to end up in "spam" otherwise?
|
| I find it hard to believe that you can "free-ly" send e-mail to,
| say, 100,000 e-mails and actually have it get delivered at a high
| rate? I would love to learn if I'm wrong though.
|
| This article could've talked about DataDog vs Jaeger/ELK stack I
| think for tracing/logs.
| gwbrooks wrote:
| You can get high deliverability -- the keys, whether you're
| using your own servers or someone else's come down to a clean
| list that won't generate complaints and staying within the TOS
| of your mailserver host or third-party SMTP service.
|
| Host your mail-creation/list-management/analytics stack
| yourself (I like Mautic and MailWizz but there are other
| options) and use a third party for SMTP services. Amazon SES
| charges $1 per 10,000 emails; other services are slightly more
| expensive but it's all still very affordable.
| locustous wrote:
| I've had really poor deliverability from SES. Our emails went
| straight to spam on many providers. Just trying to do email
| verification on new signups.
| tedivm wrote:
| I'm not sure why you're getting the downvotes but this is the
| way for people who want some level of self hosting. I finally
| gave up hosting my own mail server about two years ago- I had
| been self hosting email since 2005, but it reached the point
| where delivery to the big companies was extremely difficult.
| If someone wants to host their own software but actually have
| their emails delivered they really do need a third party SMTP
| service that specialized in deliverability or has a big
| company behind it.
| nottathrowaway3 wrote:
| You're sending your emails over the internet anyway. You're
| paying for the reputation of the 3p smtp service and it's a
| pretty liquid/perfect market.
| dijit wrote:
| > I find it hard to believe that you can "free-ly" send e-mail
| to, say, 100,000 e-mails and actually have it get delivered at
| a high rate? I would love to learn if I'm wrong though.
|
| You can do this, I have done this, but honestly it's annoyingly
| painful and you're always one bad ad campaign away from being
| nuked to death by people marking your emails as spam.
|
| There's a lot of rules to follow and even when you follow them
| you need to ensure that you start emailing a low volume for
| each new sending IP until the reputation grows over time.
| djbusby wrote:
| How does one even know that message are being tagged as spam?
| dijit wrote:
| Depending on the provider you can receive a "bounce"
| response. Yahoo and Hotmail do this, Google was a little
| more opaque if memory serves.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| To be fair, if people are marking your emails as spam
| frequently enough to get your IPs/domains blacklisted then it
| suggests the system is working as designed and you shouldn't
| be sending whatever you're sending to those people.
| mrmattyboy wrote:
| One thing to say to this.. I work at a company and have
| personally setup quite a few mail servers for mass email
| sending and warming up IPs.. not fun..
|
| (these are all legitimate interest emails)
|
| I was in a meeting with a couple of people from the team
| and a QA engineer mentioned that everytime he's done with
| an email in gmail, he spams it off... _wut_..
|
| Whilst yes, we have been blacklisted a handful of times
| and, based on spam reports (feedback loops), people do mark
| emails as spam for completely nonsensical reasons... e.g.
| users signing up, (getting and using the activation email),
| using the service and then spamming the activation email.
|
| Edit: I definitely think there's a bell curve for sending
| your own emails:
|
| * If you have a very small platform (at least in my
| experience), reputation doesn't mean _that_ much, emails
| are generally accepted by providers (assuming IPs that you
| used haven 't been previously used for spammy activity), so
| self-hosting might make some sense (though a third-party
| probably wouldn't be too expensive if you did want to).
|
| * If you start sending 100s-1000s of emails/day, I guess
| some third party solution would make sense, since running
| dedicated IPs/domains and servers just for sending emails
| might not be beneficial.
|
| * As you go to sending 100K+ emails a day, personally, I
| think setting up servers starts making more sense
| dijit wrote:
| Nah, about 2% of my "Thank you for ordering, here is your
| receipt" mails also get marked as spam.
|
| Some number of people just smack the "spam" button for
| nearly everything that is automated, and those "spam"
| buttons seem to work on absolute numbers not percentages;
| so if you have a high number of people in the pool then you
| will be false flagged eventually.
|
| We had a very explicit double opt-in system, made it super
| easy to unsubscribe, emailed once a month at most; and we
| had people still marking our communications as spam. I'm
| not sure what else we could have done to weed out the
| people who just smack the spam button honestly.
|
| That said, there was a lot of variance, emoji in the
| headline was the campaign that caused 9% of people to mark
| spam and 20% to unsubscribe, but it was enough to have us
| blackholed for 2.5 months.
|
| I think a major issue is that people don't want to even
| check how to unsubscribe and they see the "mark as spam"
| button as a "just make this go away" button.
| ChainOfFools wrote:
| People who mark things as junk mail or spam typically
| have no idea that this action can have an upstream impact
| on spam filtering algorithms.
|
| They typically have no idea how any of this stuff works
| and just assume that the purpose of marking something is
| spam is to prevent them from seeing any more of it,
| personally, in the future. It doesn't occur to them that
| their preference thus exerts a small influence over the
| experience of potentially millions of other people.
|
| In the decades past, when preferences weren't so tightly
| linked to each other among otherwise unaffiliated users,
| the simple definition of spam as " stuff I'm not
| interested in seeing in my inbox" was completely
| sufficient to inform a user's decisions about using the
| spam button. But today that definition is something
| closer to "stuff I'm not interested in seeing and that I
| am fairly certain few if any other people are interested
| in seeing, either."
| the_af wrote:
| I disagree with your modern definition. Spam to me is
| unsolicited commercial emails. All email "ads" are spam.
| Newsletters I didn't subscribe to are spam. Anything
| trying to sell me something I didn't subscribe to is
| spam.
|
| You bet I'm going to mark it as spam and _I hope_ it
| creates trouble for the sender.
|
| PS: I assume we all agree scams, "Russian singles", chain
| letters, "little Jessica is 4 and dying of cancer", etc,
| are all spam. That's a shared common ground.
| dijit wrote:
| The annoyance I felt that I was a "good" postmaster and I
| was punished as a part of being from a tribe of bad
| postmasters.
|
| Google et al. can't tell the difference when you hit
| spam.
|
| We never bought or sold any email lists, we went out of
| our way to _ensure_ you wanted to be on the list- we made
| it single link with no extra checkbox or button to
| unsubscribe, we emailed only occasionally and above all
| we did our absolute best to make the content humorous and
| engaging.
|
| You can make the case that there should be "no automated
| mail trying to sell things" and honestly, thats fine, but
| why the hell are people marking the receipts for things
| they bought as spam?
| the_af wrote:
| > _but why the hell are people marking the receipts for
| things they bought as spam?_
|
| I never thought people did that. That's definitely not
| spam. It is a one-time interaction confirming an
| operation you just did. Also not spam: when you buy
| something and the tracking sends you updates via mail.
| Dma54rhs wrote:
| It happens often, we sell fairly expensive items and
| regular confirmation and tracking number emails still get
| reported.
|
| I am certain rising ipv4 prices are dictated by spammers
| but only availability.
|
| No one likes spam but when you have to send legitimate
| emails you quickly learn the other side of the problem as
| well.
| zamnos wrote:
| Personally, the effort to sell me something doesn't need
| to be there for me to consider it noise, and where
| marking something as spam (or phishing) are the only ways
| to tell the system something is noise, I'll mark stuff as
| spam even if it's not an advertisement.
| hurril wrote:
| Oh we do. We just don't want to have your shitty
| newsletter.
| rationalist wrote:
| How do you prevent people from entering in the wrong
| address, and thus a random person receiving your emails?
|
| If it's just a one-off receipt, I'll delete it. If that
| business I never had any business with starts spamming
| me, then I mark it as spam. Second receipt, pisses me
| off, a third receipt from the same company gets marked as
| spam etc. If you want to send more than one email, ask
| for permission.
|
| Unfortunately I have a few technology-challenged
| acquaintances still using my common-ish firslast@ gmail,
| but once I get them switched over, everything that inbox
| receives will automatically be marked as spam.
| dijit wrote:
| > How do you prevent people from entering in the wrong
| address, and thus a random person receiving your emails?
|
| Double opt-in.
|
| You cant just enter an email address to subscribe, I used
| to send you an email with a link to click to complete the
| process.
|
| For transactional email this would be handled by getting
| people to either create an account or use Paypal for
| guest checkout. (this was 2012)
| nkrisc wrote:
| > I think a major issue is that people don't want to even
| check how to unsubscribe and they see the "mark as spam"
| button as a "just make this go away" button.
|
| You can thank unscrupulous actors for this. I get so much
| spam I'm not going to try to figure out what is actually
| spam or not, nor am I going to risk clicking
| "unsubscribe" links in emails I assume are malicious spam
| anyway. If it looks automated and I don't know what it is
| or can't remember why I'm getting it, it's spam.
|
| Especially marketing emails. I would never knowingly sign
| up to receive a marketing email so if I do receive yours
| it's either spam or you tricked me into signing up for
| it, so it's also spam as far as I'm concerned.
| ghaff wrote:
| Here's the thing. If companies never collected and used
| email addresses in exchange for providing free webinars,
| reports, developer seminars, books, reports, etc. they'd
| do far less of those things because digital marketing
| would be much more just shouting out into the void with
| often difficult to measure results. And they'd generally
| be way out-marketed (and out-sold because marketing
| brings in leads).
|
| You may be fine with all that but remember that selling
| pays for engineering salaries.
| nkrisc wrote:
| You're right. And it's lead us to a place where I mark
| most email I get as spam.
| kshacker wrote:
| I do this. And what would help (hey google) is if gmail
| would remember I requested an unsubscribe and then offer
| to mark as spam 72 after my request to unsubscribe. As of
| now, I need to remember who all I tried to unsubscribe
| and when I get their email 3 days, 3 weeks or 3 months
| later, I don't want to remember my unsubscribe list.
| pimlottc wrote:
| I created an "unsubscribed" label for this. I haven't
| bothered to automate the rest of the steps you describe
| but I'm sure it could be done.
| dijit wrote:
| > Especially marketing emails. I would never knowingly
| sign up to receive a marketing email
|
| thats fair, some people do it for the promise of getting
| some deals, something we actually delivered on often as
| when we wanted to clear the warehouse we sent
| discount/clearance emails to the signed up users rather
| than putting it on the site.
|
| We used to also trial "own produced" products at
| discounted rates for people as a sort of beta test.
| AviationAtom wrote:
| Call me crazy, but for a problem folks seem to imply has
| had everything, including the the kitchen sink thrown at
| it... why do I have yet to see a single email that has
| the unsubscribe button at the very top, front and center,
| the absolute first thing I see?
| dijit wrote:
| It is. It literally is.
|
| Whenever gmail, thunderbird or office365 outlook notices
| a working unsubscribe link in a message, it puts its own
| unsubscribe link at the top of the message, right next to
| the address of the sender's email.
|
| I'm sure you mean the content of the email, but we dont
| reach out to double opt-in users or transactional emails
| with an unsubscribe link, since you chose to be there.
|
| The unsubscribe link lives near the bottom of the email
| along with the link to support, in clear text in a font
| and colour that matches the content.
| Izkata wrote:
| I remember seeing that in Gmail years ago, but haven't
| seen it in a long time. I thought they removed the
| feature.
| DangitBobby wrote:
| Funny, I know to hit the spam button at the top and the
| unsubscribe bottom buried in a link at the email footer.
| Am I blind? Have I somehow clicked "spam" and
| "unsubscribe" hundreds of times without seeing an obvious
| "unsubscribe" button at the top? Very dubious.
|
| Nope! Just checked Gmail WebView. There is a toolbar at
| the top with a very prominent"spam" button, and two kebab
| menus with "filter messages like this", "report spam",
| "report phishing", but no unsubscribe button.
| monsieurbanana wrote:
| Could be, or it could be that those systems are so
| aggressively tuned that newcomers have no chance to not be
| labeled spam while established players are whitelisted.
|
| (I truly don't know, but I don't think it's as simple as
| you're saying)
| nottathrowaway3 wrote:
| Email delivery is not purely a protection racket.
|
| People use Gmail because they legitimately want to filter
| out the unsolicited spam, marketing, etc. To an anonymous
| attacker, there is no cost to send these emails.
| Middlemen like MailChimp and Sendgrid play the role of
| converting email from a free, publicly exploitable
| channel into a paid, KYC one.
|
| Email fbfw is the de facto standard communication channel
| for almost everything, but by design a single computer
| can send an unlimited number of emails to other
| addresses. This maybe was a good enough design
| originally, but now the role of email has grown so much
| that, today, it should be a paid KYC channel.
|
| What is the alternative to spam filtering? Everyone
| maintains their own allowlist of good senders?
| safety1st wrote:
| Is that the "Just So" story that people who don't work with
| email at scale believe?
|
| Email deliverability is a full time job. There are so many
| "potential spam" markers that are interpreted differently
| (and opaquely) by different ESPs. Getting your email
| delivered to a lot of people is essentially non
| deterministic.
|
| Including a link to a Google Doc in your message body is
| enough to get you blacklisted by some email providers if
| you don't have a prior history with them. Yes, there will
| usually be some process to get off the blacklists and doing
| it will mostly stick even if you continue to email Google
| Docs to people. But the key word there is mostly. As I
| said, deliverability (at least at scale) is a full time
| job.
| gscott wrote:
| It's been my experience that people can't tell the
| difference between the delete button and the spam button.
| samstave wrote:
| See my other comment below on how IP blocks for IPv4 went
| through the roof on price and availabilty...
|
| The global spam market is what caused the hockey-stick rise
| in IPv4 "shortage"
| IncRnd wrote:
| Except, that's not a fair take.
|
| It only takes a moment for a single person to get your ip
| or domain balacklisted, not a concerted campaign. There are
| many blacklists that accept direct submissions from any
| unauthenticated person for any target domain/ip.
|
| What's difficult is not to get onto a blacklist but to get
| off of a blacklist.
| capableweb wrote:
| + unsurprisingly, lots of hosting providers disable
| SMTP/block port 25/ban you if any email sending is being
| detected coming from your instances, legitimate or not, as
| the problem with hosting IPs that are sending spam is so
| annoying (and even illegal in some places).
| [deleted]
| luckylion wrote:
| That's also why the phishing campaigns now use Amazon SES (and
| amazon happily lets them, as long as they pay, it seems): their
| email will get delivered.
| samstave wrote:
| The biggest aspect that _used_ to be used in spam detection
| (from an OSI, not a content reading perspective) was source IP
| blocks.
|
| Many people dont realize that spam was the original source for
| social networking...
|
| I cant type up all the history I know quickly, but Friendster
| (who 'invented the social graph', HI5, Tagged, MySpace, were
| all started as an overlay to email harvesting mechanisms to -->
| spam....
|
| They needed to create high value email-lists of valid emails.
|
| Asking for such, was stupid as most people rejected it.
|
| Then, they figured out that adding a service (chat and share
| with your friends, give us your email and their email so we can
| connect you by sending them invites etc) was the best social-
| engineering (the 'hacker' meaning) mechanism was to have people
| validate their personal email, offer a novel e-'service' to
| 'connect' with your friends within some context - and have you
| pre-validate the email list based on your invites and
| contacts... then parlay MLM structure to create better more
| validated email lists.
|
| Then you sell the lists on the BM to spammers looking to avoid
| a high bounce rate based on real emails.
|
| Then they started nefariously stealing your contacts with auto-
| opt-in agreements and such....
|
| Then as the battle btwn spam and socially-interesting services
| ramped up the spam companies (such as Postini (which was bought
| by google) became the spam filters (selling their services to
| BigCorps) began to realize that filtering on the sending IPs
| was a good measure for determining spam (along with rate-
| limiting, and other aspects) - such that spammers were getting
| blocked based on delivery IP blocks.
|
| This set-off a market incentive for spammers to buy up swaths
| of IPv4 blocks so they could swap out IPs...
|
| Then there were many ranges, sources, tracrts etc used to
| determine senders and ID them as spammers etc....
|
| So - the spammers invented VPN/Tunneling delivery routes such
| they could send to a number of various global relays so that
| they could send from a central source of machines, but be
| delivered to the endpoints from a variety of global IP blocks.
|
| There was a market for IPv4 blocks all over the world and
| spammers were spending big bucks on all aspects, from paying
| for the IP blocks, relationships with ISP/VPN/etc tech....
|
| All while attempting to provide what was a thin layer of
| utility service to the user to keep what was effectively
| continued access to the growing address books of their users
| and keep them engaged on the platform such that they could keep
| knowing if existing or new contacts were valid.
|
| There were even back-room deals between spammers/tech/isp etc
| to allow access.
|
| So, the "social networks" we know know of were birthed
| literally upon spam.
|
| -
|
| Have you ever wondered why as soon as tiktock came out, all of
| a sudden a fuck-ton of spam was hitting your gmail inbox
| (previously postini) <-- Because tictock was eating the revenue
| lunch.
|
| Zuck literally stated that the entire revenue model for FB was
| "senator, we sell ads"
|
| When in an interview with Google, they asked "what kind of
| company do you think google is "Well, most people think youre a
| search engine, but youre actually an advertisement correlation
| engine"
|
| In an interview with Twitter (dont forget about the infamous
| ATT room 641A?) - what do you think twitter is: "Twitter is a
| global sentiment monitering engine" (this was ~2006?8? I cant
| recall)
|
| --
|
| Source: I know these founders and many of the original devops
| members from the above companies, and other more scary outcomes
| from the above statements.
|
| And here we are today with the advanced learning all built upon
| "consumption" ad algos
| galdor wrote:
| You go with Mailchimp (or equivalent) for newsletters because
| they give you the subscription form, handle email verification,
| unsubscriptions, GDPR mentions everywhere, provide useful stats
| and notifications, segmentation and targeting... Getting email
| delivered is indeed really hard, especially if you send
| thousands of emails, but building all these other features is
| insanely time consuming. The cost of Mailchimp is negligible in
| comparison.
|
| Same reason why companies use Sendgrid for marketing campaigns.
| j45 wrote:
| A dedicated IP address can be warmed up to deliver email well
| enough but it can take some time.
|
| A mail server software like mdaemon can quickly handle the
| heavy lifting of improving deliverability. It's a small price
| for the deliverability. I'm just a former user of it.
|
| It's ok to use an external email provider for outgoing email
| delivery.
|
| ESPs (email service providers) are handy because they can
| separate outgoing transactional emails from marketing ones to
| ensure deliverability.
| oaththrowaway wrote:
| I self host most everything through unRAID. I spent a good amount
| of money getting a good server setup. The only thing I rely on
| the cloud for is email.
|
| I've gone through several iterations of hardware and hard drive
| capacity over about 7-8 years now. Hard to imagine I'll ever go
| back.
|
| It's not even about the monthly subscriptions, I've spent more on
| hardware I'm sure, plus my monthly VPN and Usenet fees. It's
| really an exhaustion of SaaS becoming essentially keyloggers of
| our entire lives. I guess self hosting is the closest we have of
| opting out, but even then it's not enough.
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| What are you spending a significant amount of money on
| hardware? A used PC is ~$50, assuming you don't already have
| one. Spinning rust is ~$10/TB:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/HGST-Ultrastar-HUH728080ALE604-3-5-In...
|
| https://www.ebay.com/itm/125797516426
|
| It can be done for less than $100, done well for less than
| $300.
| oaththrowaway wrote:
| Part of it is that I'm running a gaming VM on it and passing
| through a GPU to that. Plus I have another GPU for
| transcoding my media to HEVC. Lots of RAM for all the
| containers as well.
|
| I also wrote my own container that I use for all my
| development so I like to keep it snappy for that.
|
| I have about 20TB of platter storage (WD Reds) + parity, and
| 2TB of SSD cache (an additional 2TB SSD passed into the
| gaming vm)
|
| It slowly adds up. I started with a Raspberry Pi and a USB
| hard drive as storage.
| stonewall wrote:
| I self-host literally everything (email, calendar/contacts, VOIP,
| XMPP, you name it) from by basement with used 1U servers from
| eBay and a cable internet connection.
|
| It was probably more hassle than most people would want to bother
| with to get it set up. But, with everything up and running,
| there's very little maintenance. I probably spend a few hours a
| month tinkering still, just because I enjoy it.
|
| I use a stack of Proxmox VMs, FreeIPA for authn/authz, and Rocky
| Linux for all servers and workstations. My phone runs GrapheneOS
| with a Wireguard VPN back to the house. I don't expose anything
| to the public internet unless absolutely necessary.
|
| I recently anonymized and Ansibilized my entire setup so that
| others might get some use out of it:
|
| https://github.com/sacredheartsc/selfhosted
| triyambakam wrote:
| Very inspiring and thank you for sharing. I run GrapheneOS too
| but I haven't set anything up like a Wireguard VPN. What is the
| rough idea of how that works?
| j45 wrote:
| Try installing algovpn it's pretty much a turnkey wireguard
| installation, lots of tutorials on YouTube.
|
| I would advise against setting up wireguard manually.
| stonewall wrote:
| I plug my cable modem into a server running the OPNsense
| firewall [0], which has a wireguard plugin.
|
| I set up a wireguard VPN in OPNsense.
|
| Then I downloaded the wireguard app in F-Droid, and pasted my
| credentials from the wireguard Android app into the wireguard
| configs on the firewall.
|
| I set the VPN in grapheneOS as "always on," so from my
| phone's perspective, it always has access to my internal
| network, even when on LTE. All my phones internet traffic
| ends up going through my home internet connection as a
| result.
|
| [0] https://opnsense.org/
| novok wrote:
| How much power does it take? I've realized with some services
| it's cheaper to use it than the electricity and hardware cost.
| digitallyfree wrote:
| * * *
| stonewall wrote:
| I almost certainly don't save any money considering
| electricity cost. I have a dell r630 for compute and an
| r730xd that I use as a NAS. Then I have one switch for the
| rack and a POE switch for the house. Probably 3-5amps total?
|
| If I started over, I would probably choose more efficient
| gear.
|
| That said, I don't mind paying for the electricity too much.
| I enjoy the warm fuzzies of knowing my data lives under my
| roof.
| chinaman425 wrote:
| [dead]
| j45 wrote:
| For homelab or self hosting, Power per watt is my favourite
| measure now.
|
| Depending on your need (many apps just idle most of the time)
| a usff pc can make an excellent proxmox server.
|
| Check out a Lenovo m920q, Dell Optiplex 7060, HP EliteDesk or
| ProDesk 800 series. They are easy enough to bump to 64G of
| ram and stack up as you need. The 8700T cpu is a desktop
| grade in a small shell and watt footprint and also has vpro
| and hyperthreading.
|
| It's not a rack server but it's easy enough to add a Mac
| Studio/Mini soon enough for crunching.
|
| I have spent too much time with full rack server gear and
| using it a can seem like a matter of preference before need.
| It's heavy, hungry, noisy, and my better half didn't like
| when I brought the leftover data centre stuff home.
|
| The USFF boxes are near silent and sip electricity.
| vitro wrote:
| Slightly related:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34940181
|
| https://github.com/Haxxnet/Compose-Examples
| triyambakam wrote:
| > which honestly kind of upset me a lot
|
| I've seen this language more and more frequently: minimized (kind
| of) + maximized (a lot) qualifiers. No real insight, just
| interesting.
| eointierney wrote:
| As a modifier it's kind of a mollifier
|
| Edit: just looked it up and wikipedia has a difinition I didn't
| know :)
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mollifier
|
| However in the colloquial usage 'round these parts mollifier
| means to soften or make gentle
|
| https://www.etymonline.com/word/mollify#etymonline_v_17411
| scubbo wrote:
| In my idiom, at least, "kind of" is not solely deminisher, but
| can also be an approximater - to say something "kind of upset
| me" _could_ mean "it upset me, but not a great deal", or it
| could mean "it had an effect on me which is complicated and
| difficult to concisely describe, but which can be approximately
| described as 'upset'". In that reading, this isn't a
| contradiction at all - "which honestly had an extremely large
| effect on me which was similar to, but not entirely the same
| as, being upset".
| rhaway84773 wrote:
| I don't think the "kind of" here is serving to minimize the
| "upset ness". I think it's describing the fact that the person
| wasn't really "upset", but some other emotion which they can't
| express, which was kind of like being upset, but not exactly
| the same.
| jeppester wrote:
| This is definitely a thing, and I worry that I'm guilty of it
| myself.
|
| I don't know if I should thank you for this insight or if you
| just cursed me.
| powersnail wrote:
| To my non-native speaker ear, "a lot" indicates the strength
| the emotion ("very upset"), while "kind of" is a defensive
| wording indicating lack of objectivity or surety ("not saying
| it's objectively annoying, but it does upset me"). It shows up
| a lot, in my experience, when people are talking about
| something anecdotal or subjective.
| bitsinthesky wrote:
| Nice catch. I've been using this construction and I've been
| oblivious to its hypocrisy until now :) I might start seeing
| how far I can stretch it to make it obvious how silly it is.
| "Which honestly did not at all upset me a ridiculous amount."
| Sounds unhinged.
| [deleted]
| creativenolo wrote:
| This. I've seen a lot using this on its own more and more
| frequently too.
| unixhero wrote:
| Self host with vps
|
| Use cloudron.io for provisioning
|
| Profit
| margorczynski wrote:
| It looks like a proprietary, closed-source solution so not sure
| if that's such a great idea in the long run.
| unixhero wrote:
| Used it for 5 years in production, it is a good idea
| oarsinsync wrote:
| I used google reader for 6 years.
| unixhero wrote:
| Where did it get you though?
| tweetle_beetle wrote:
| Maybe not in the long run, but more reliable than community
| created scripts which may or may not be: up to date, migrate
| data correctly, etc. They all suffer from it, but it's
| especially the non-Docker ones like Yunohost that seem to be
| worse in my experience.
|
| Anyway even if Cloudron goes under, you still have your own
| data on your own machine if youve set it up like that.
| jeppester wrote:
| This is a thing I'm very interested in currently. It seems like
| the last 10 years tech innovation (especially cloud) should have
| also made it much easier to run - and maintain - things on-
| premise.
|
| Containers, easy to setup SSL, immutable OS's, reverse proxies.
|
| Those things coupled with cheap and power efficient
| workstations/nucs seem like a very good match, at least in
| theory.
|
| Then we have the GDPR laws which - also in theory - should be
| much more tangible when you know exactly where your data is - and
| backups can still easily be stored in the cloud as long as they
| are encrypted.
|
| The biggest issue I see is the lack of ECC memory in the machines
| I mentioned.
|
| And then that this idea goes against the business model of the
| cloud providers, who have a great deal of control over where we
| are heading and what we are talking about.
|
| Still I cannot help but think there's a lot of opportunity in
| that area which seems rather untapped so far.
| linsomniac wrote:
| Self-hosting is a big operations problem, with few tools to
| automate it.
|
| Long ago, I had an associate tell me that he was having some
| success with setting up Wordpress sites for local political
| organizations. I said to him: "Oh, that's really neat! What are
| you doing to ensure that the sites stay up to date with security
| patches?" His response was completely unrelated to my question,
| which I figured was my answer and was why there are so many
| hacked sites out there.
|
| Anything I deploy needs to have an upgrade plan. Ideally,
| something that provides a package (either on distro or a repo the
| package provides), so "apt update" will resolve it. Docker can be
| a good way as well, Sentry does a pretty good job at this.
| x0x0 wrote:
| The entire discussion on the link obscures the fact that saas
| companies are providing a real service. Even if you don't want
| the product to be updated, staying abreast of security patches,
| external api changes, OS changes, client changes, browser
| changes, etc is real work. Self hosting requires the person
| hosting to do all the ktlo work.
| cuuupid wrote:
| Cal.com's issues have less to do with the stack and more that it
| just isn't setup for self hosting , if you try to get it up and
| running you'll notice you get quite a few errors where it tries
| to hit proprietary code and it crashes strangely every few hours.
| Also uses up an incredulous amount of resources for such a simple
| service.
| satvikpendem wrote:
| I posted about this before but I would recommend Coolify for self
| hosting applications, it's an open source Heroku alternative that
| has one-click installation of services like Plausible, NextCloud
| etc. It works with Herokuish buildpacks as well as Docker +
| Docker Compose (with Kubernetes support coming soon).
|
| I personally use a $5 Hetzner server in Northern Virginia which
| works great, cheaper and faster than the equivalent in
| DigitalOcean.
|
| https://coolify.io
| freitzkriesler2 wrote:
| Self hosting is great , except it's incredibly frustrating to get
| a good pipe to your home that has decent upload speeds. Even
| "business class " is downright awful. Thankfully this is slowly
| changing but not fast enough!
|
| Looking to run my own next cloud instance soon.
| lucb1e wrote:
| It doesn't suit everything, but 10mbps can already be plenty
| for self hosting. Apparently youtube's 1080p stream is ~6
| mbps1. Count on some overhead, but I would say that 10 mbps
| upload should be enough for most types of content so long as
| it's just you and your friends using it. If it's a text blog
| (with css, site logo, etc. of course), 10mbps will easily
| survive the HN homepage at #1 position.
|
| Perhaps a photography blog, where you don't want to drag the
| jpg quality down to "looks fine without zooming" levels, might
| be more of a struggle. Or if your goal is to share flashable
| images for a raspberry pi or so (that can easily be gigabytes),
| yeah then this is not going to be a good experience even
| without concurrent users.
|
| Definitely you'll be fine to host things like:
|
| - email
|
| - a website (blog, CV, hobby, link shortening... can be
| anything) if you don't overload it with huge CSS/JS bundles
|
| - chat server, such as Matrix or an IRC bouncer
|
| - live editing notepad like etherpad, cryptpad, codimd
|
| - software development stuff, like a unit test server or a git
| server (maybe not if you're the Linux kernel with gigabytes of
| history), perhaps a build server depending on the size of the
| binaries (CLI vs GUI)
|
| - game servers: most real-time games (e.g. shooters) will run
| fine at low bandwidth if your latency is stable (let alone
| turn-based games), presuming it's just you and some friends
| playing, maybe not if you want to provide commercial game
| hosting services
|
| - backup server if are fine driving home for doing restores,
| especially if you mostly backup when you're at home anyway
|
| - "client" services like web scraping, e.g. I fetch some game's
| leaderboards regularly (with permission) and provide statistics
| for them, and monitor a river for giving me notifications in
| certain cases, which take negligible amounts of bandwidth
|
| - home automation that needs to talk to third-party services or
| you want to use outside of the house
|
| Probably there are more uses to be thought of. I can only say
| to not let your dreams be dreams :D
|
| 1 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/24198739/what-bitrate-
| is...
| kornhole wrote:
| If you have high bandwidth requirements, you can self-host on a
| VPS from the many possible providers. I personally have a
| hybrid setup with my high storage and resource intensive apps
| such as Nextcloud hosted on a server at home but host services
| that need high bandwidth, no NAT restrictions, and different
| security on a VPS. Yes I pay a small subscription to the VPS
| provider, but it is relatively small.
| kefirlife wrote:
| One option to consider if you really want to host something is
| to get some space at your local transit provider collocation
| space. You have access to considerably larger amounts of
| bandwidth without all the complications of getting the path to
| your home to be sufficiently high bandwidth, and with
| sufficient capacity for your purposes. If you want something
| relatively highly available then power redundancy is important,
| and in my opinion leaning on existing infrastructure for this
| purpose is an additional benefit of this approach.
|
| Setting that up will be a lot more in depth and complicated
| than leveraging a cloud service provider, so you need to
| consider the cost benefit analysis for yourself. However, if
| you want to self host and want the bandwidth, I think it is a
| route worth considering.
| bruce343434 wrote:
| Not to mention the expense!
| dijit wrote:
| I guess that depends on where you live, I have almost the same
| upload vs download speed on my ISP Bahnhof in Sweden.
|
| Proof: https://www.speedtest.net/result/14437484691.png
|
| I am always worried about someone deciding to DDoS me though.
| lucb1e wrote:
| > I am always worried about someone deciding to DDoS me
| though.
|
| I've hosted a Tor exit node and other questionable stuff as a
| teenager, going from 1mbps upload to 50 mbps today. The site
| has been on the HN homepage, sometimes get featured on news
| sites like zdnet (that article gave me clicks for years on
| end), plus I run a file sharing service where anyone can post
| literally anything but the links are valid for one day. It
| has definitely hosted links to phishing and malware in the
| past (and I combat that when I see it, like replacing the
| short link with an info page "this was a phishing page" +
| infos).
|
| In ~15 years, I never noticed anyone trying to take down the
| site. But your sentiment keeps being echoed in places like
| r/selfhosted and moves people to put their services behind
| some traffic inspection service, reducing the decentralized
| to a few places where all traffic passes through (often with
| decryption keys made available to them). It's still good to
| self host even if you do that, but I do feel a bit conflicted
| about that and wouldn't do it myself.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| To be fair, they can do that just fine regardless of whether
| you're running externally-available services. Most
| untargeted, low-effort DDoS relies on filling up all your
| bandwidth with spam traffic, not exploiting some layer-7
| vulnerability in an application you host.
| charcircuit wrote:
| Who does untargetted layer 3/4 DDoS? Why would an attacker
| waste money booting a website that gets 0 visitors?
| toast0 wrote:
| DDoS risk seems to be related to the type of services you're
| hosting. If you host openly available game services or adult
| media, those seem to attract DDoS, and you need a good
| relationship with your upstream. If you're just hosting
| personal things, you're not likely to get DDoSed except for
| people just hitting random IPs, which could get you anyway.
|
| If it happens, not too much you can do, other than move to
| real hosting, and let them know upfront, or they'll drop you
| quick. Note that the first line of DDoS defense at your real
| hosting is going to be null routing your IP: dropping traffic
| to that IP, preferably on their upstreams' routers. That's
| normal and ok, although frustrating for you; doing better has
| costs.
| WXLCKNO wrote:
| I recently got 1.5 gigabit internet (1.5 down, 940 up) and it's
| been amazing.
|
| The fact that my desktop pc only has a gigabit card is perfect
| because I'm naturally throttled against using the entire.
| Obviously I can do this in my router (dream machine which is
| also gigabit only though) but it leaves a lot of room for
| everything else that's hosted at home even during peak
| utilization on my pc.
| fabianhjr wrote:
| Its better to design, implement, and use local-first software:
| https://www.inkandswitch.com/local-first/
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| I'm developing such an app. I'm excited to get to the network
| connectivity part so I can see how much I've saved by making
| the client smart.
|
| I think I'm going to be able to get away with just running the
| server for 36 minutes a day (three minutes every hour). The
| client will know to sync data during those time windows. 1hr of
| latency is fine for a lot of things if the client is smart
| about what it caches.
| triyambakam wrote:
| What is the app?
| triyambakam wrote:
| Very cool, and interesting that Martin Kleppmann of DDIA is an
| author. I am glad to come across this - I was brainstorming
| such a manifesto, now I can use this as a resource.
|
| One local first that I recently switched to is migrating from
| ynab.com to my own Libre Calc spreadsheets. It took a few days
| to figure out all the formulas, but now I have even more
| control over how I track my budget.
| justin_oaks wrote:
| I thought this article would go into more than a handful of apps.
|
| What apps do you think work well for self-hosting, even if it
| limited to us tech folk?
|
| I've self-hosted Grafana and InfluxDB for monitoring and metrics
| and found them OK to self host. The authentication and TLS setups
| were the most annoying.
|
| I've self hosted a few kinds of wiki software, but I eventually
| settled on a combination of a single Tiddlywiki file and
| uploading to S3. It works well for most of my own knowledge
| storage. I even went so far as to write my own plugin to save the
| Tiddlywiki file to S3, so I can press a button in Tiddlywiki to
| upload it.
|
| I have a self-hosted docker registry, which is just the reference
| repository provided by Docker. It has required almost no
| maintenance since I set it up.
|
| [Edit: for clarity]
| nickstinemates wrote:
| A lot of tools get mentioned and resources are available in
| reddits /r/homelab
| spmurrayzzz wrote:
| > What apps do you think work well for self-hosting, even if it
| limited to us tech folk?
|
| At least once per month I check out https://github.com/awesome-
| selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted to see what folks have been
| adding.
|
| One of my favorites from that list is Focalboard. I used to use
| a combination of Todoist, Trello, and Notion, but found that
| moving to FB helped me collapse that all into one tool. The
| open source and self-hosted aspects were a big bonus, of
| course.
| nitnelave wrote:
| I got fed up installing OpenLDAP for user management, so I made
| LLDAP, targeting the Goldilocks zone of the article: simple to
| setup/manage, but powerful enough for most self-hosting needs.
| justin_oaks wrote:
| Awesome! Next time I'm looking to set up some user management
| stuff, I'll have to try it out. I especially appreciate the
| sample configurations you give for each service you are
| trying to integrate with.
| navigate8310 wrote:
| Can something like this be used to host phone books for IP
| PBX?
| nitnelave wrote:
| Not quite yet, but I'm working on a feature that will
| enable that: https://github.com/nitnelave/lldap/issues/67
| boguscoder wrote:
| +1 to influxDB (I use older Chronograf instead of Graphana) for
| home automation/ sensor monitoring, even on Rpi Zero hosting
| was very easy to start and zero maintenance from there
| spiderfarmer wrote:
| https://mailcoach.app/ is another awesome self hosted Mailchimp
| alternative, especially when you're developing Laravel
| applications.
| steponlego wrote:
| As for Google Analytics - who hasn't been blocking that shit for
| at least a decade? Heck my uMatrix pretty much auto-blocks all
| telemetry.
| dmje wrote:
| I've been impressed with Yunohost [0]. I only have it setup on an
| internal box for now but it works well, and super easy to use.
| Good for people like me who aren't interested in admin.
|
| [0] https://yunohost.org/en
| margorczynski wrote:
| As for hosting your own apps I found Hetzner VPS or something
| similar to be very good. Just pack them up into a docker-compose
| with your CI/CR pushing an image into a repository and you can
| host a lot of low-medium traffic solutions on a single box with
| the cost being a fraction of "the Cloud" (especially PaaS). On
| the box there is a single Nginx acting as a reverse proxy to the
| exposed compose ports offloading SSL.
|
| In such a solution you just need to ask yourself should Postgres,
| Grafana etc. be shared between the apps or put into each one of
| the compose configs as a service and handled separately. Both
| have their upsides and downsides.
| contradictioned wrote:
| I have something similar, but with traefik instead of nginx.
| Traefik integrates very nicely with docker using labels, such
| that the labels configure e.g. domain, path, http-auth etc for
| the web service running in a container.
| Witoso wrote:
| Same here but with caddy-docker-proxy which I found a bit
| easier than traefik.
| johnchristopher wrote:
| Came to say I did the same :).
| Svarto wrote:
| Do you know of (or used) any guide to get started? I'm
| reasonably proficient but struggle to put all the moving pieces
| together
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