[HN Gopher] Word-processor idiot (Japanese expression)
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Word-processor idiot (Japanese expression)
Author : acadapter
Score : 58 points
Date : 2023-03-04 22:15 UTC (44 minutes ago)
(HTM) web link (en.wiktionary.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (en.wiktionary.org)
| Avlin67 wrote:
| reminds me geo location idiots that are lost because of gps use
| wirthjason wrote:
| Can't remember the last time I saw baka written in kanji and not
| katakana.
| userbinator wrote:
| Also somewhat amusing is that "idiot" breaks down into the
| characters "horse deer".
| KhoomeiK wrote:
| Wiktionary says Ma Lu is "probably originally a transcription
| of Sanskrit moh (moha, "folly"), used as a slang term among
| monks".
| theGeatZhopa wrote:
| I have two write modes. Write and not write. Two shades of gray.
|
| But I have a cursive world of words. I paint the air with my
| ability to temporarily change the density of the surrounding
| medium "air" through and by means of generating waves at
| arbitrary, sometimes repetitive patterned, frequencies, which
| ever started reach their destination, usually a opening of an
| ear, or the wall, sometimes.
|
| That must be enough.
| ssnistfajen wrote:
| China is seeing a somewhat similar phenomeno too. The ubiquity of
| pinyin-based digital input methods is causing a lot of younger
| generations to lose the ability to write Chinese characters by
| hand without looking them up online. Abbreviated acronyms due to
| a mix of censorship/laziness is also becoming common making a lot
| of online messages look rather cryptic to anyone who doesn't know
| the lingo.
| rippercushions wrote:
| This affliction is now near-universal in Japan. A friend of mine
| was recently ribbed for forgetting how to handwrite an admittedly
| somewhat complex but still very common character (Qiao _hashi_ ,
| "bridge") in her own name.
| ApolloFortyNine wrote:
| I wonder how much time is collectively 'wasted' due to
| kanji/Chinese characters.
|
| Each of these characters also have a certain order to the way
| they should be drawn, and from what direction. And at least in
| Japanese, each one has at least 2 readings (and sometimes much
| more), a Chinese reading and a Japanese reading, but which one
| is used doesn't always follow the 'rules'.
|
| A lot of this is likely learned through simple exposure for
| listening and speaking, but it makes reading and especially
| writing rediculous.
| Transfinity wrote:
| I've heard that the Kanji make Japanese and Chinese much
| easier to scan quickly once you're fluent.
| bsnnkv wrote:
| Anyone interested in this train of thought (pro or against)
| should read the Chrysanthemum Dynasty series by Ken Liu.
| recuter wrote:
| [dead]
| crispinb wrote:
| * * *
| pxc wrote:
| How many WPM can the average Japanese adult write by hand?
|
| Are kanji more efficient to write out than phonetic writing
| systems, or is proficiency with them more valued for tradition's
| sake?
|
| Is almost everyone a word-processor idiot these days?
|
| When I think of writing things by hand in English, it's hard to
| ever really want to do it. I type literally 10x faster than I can
| write, and when I write I cramp super quickly. In my life, at
| least, handwriting is obsolete.
| throwanem wrote:
| > I type literally 10x faster than I can write, and when I
| write I cramp super quickly.
|
| Because you don't do it enough to keep those muscles in
| training, and because you use the wrong tools when you do.
|
| A $20 Pilot Metropolitan is more than enough to discover how
| pleasant longhand can be when done with a tool that's designed
| specifically for that purpose, in a way ballpoints and pencils
| are not. It'll teach you to stop ramming the point into the
| paper, too, which is the _other_ reason why writing makes your
| hand hurt.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I find roller ball pens to be almost as good, but easier to
| maintain (my fountain pen at work would be dry after leaving
| it cap-on over the weekend).
| throwanem wrote:
| Use a different pen, maybe, or add an O-ring to the section
| or something. A capped pen should take weeks to dry out,
| not days.
|
| Rollerballs are a decent second best - I keep them for
| lenders and for backup in case I'm caught without a spare
| cartridge. That said, they definitely don't come close to
| my Decimo or E95s.
| HaltingPoint wrote:
| I always use good ol' mechanical pencils, particularly Twist
| Erase or BiC with 0.7 lead.
| wirthjason wrote:
| One advantage of kanji is writing long tweets. You can say a
| lot in 140 characters when most words are 2-4 characters.
| HaltingPoint wrote:
| I still prefer to write out mathematical proofs sloppily (and
| with a lot of the nitty-gritty details missing) in a scrap
| notebook, then write it more nicely (filling in all details) on
| computer printer paper, and then (if I think it's useful to
| somebody) writing it in Latex. I probably write too much, but
| it's just the way I'm used to doing calculations and proof-of-
| concepts. I also like the different styles and aesthetics that
| can be employed in handwriting. My handwriting ranges from
| incredibly sloppy (when I don't really care or just want to go
| fast) to very, very neat.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I have a new nickname!
|
| wapuroMa Lu
|
| I should be a doctor, with my handwriting.
|
| TBF, my handwriting sucked _before_ I started using computers,
| but they didn 't help.
|
| My entire family has awful penmanship (and it's an Ivy-league
| family). I used to dread trying to decipher my mother's notes.
| wirthjason wrote:
| This isn't about quality or legibility of handwriting. When
| wiring Ma Lu on a computer you type the 4 characters "baka"
| (or the two character baka" if your phone supports Lana input)
| and get an autocomplete drop-down with the kanji.
| glandium wrote:
| When you read word-processor, you probably think Microsoft Word,
| LibreOffice Writer, not Xerox 6016 Memorywriter (thanks
| wikipedia) or any other type of electronic typewriter. Maybe it's
| a generational thing, but the only use of wapuro I know of is for
| the latter (do a google image search for wapuro, and compare to a
| google image search for word processor).
|
| I'd say the expression wapuroMa Lu is probably very outdated.
| roomey wrote:
| I recently found out cursive (aka. joined up writing aka. running
| writing aka. .... Handwriting) isn't thought in US schools any
| more.
|
| This blew my mind. I understand the reasoning behind dropping it
| from the curriculum, but hearing that students couldn't do
| cursive really, blew my mind. And I'm not even sure why it
| surprised me so much!
| favaq wrote:
| "isn't thought" you say?
| Liquix wrote:
| As a consequence, probably not that either.
| _n_b_ wrote:
| > cursive [...] isn't taught in US schools any more.
|
| I was dubious, so I googled.
|
| According to this[1], 21 states require cursive as part of the
| curriculum, and some admittedly older data[2] suggests that 90%
| of students get some amount of cursive handwriting instruction.
|
| [1] https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-
| nea/great... [2]
| https://drs.dadeschools.net/informationcapsules/IC0916.pdf
| computerphage wrote:
| It was required for me, but that didn't mean anything real.
| We "learned" it for like two weeks then I never used it
| again.
| extrememacaroni wrote:
| What? US students don't write by hand anymore? ...
| smnrchrds wrote:
| The print, i.e. write detached letters, not attached letter
| like cursive.
| [deleted]
| nerdponx wrote:
| It's unfortunate because taking notes by hand is still a useful
| skill, and writing in cursive is much, much more efficient. I
| did learn cursive in school, but didn't learn it very well: my
| hand would cramp up, and I couldn't keep up at "meeting pace"
| without my letters turning into scribbles. I had to spend a
| long time as an adult trying to improve my handwriting to get
| to the point where I felt like I could take legible, useful
| meeting notes.
|
| Meanwhile I hate typing notes because I feel like typing forces
| me to think too linearly. Whereas in meetings I tend to end up
| with several clumps of loosely-connected notes, and I tend to
| spread them out somewhat evenly across the page. So even though
| I can type faster than I can write by hand, I still prefer
| writing by hand because of the freedom I get on paper. I also
| think the act of writing somehow helps me remember things
| better than typing. And e-ink just feels wrong, it's like the
| worst of both.
| rhaps0dy wrote:
| > writing in cursive is much, much more efficient
|
| That is very false. It's kind of slow compared to handwriting
| print-looking letters (eg
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Nealian)
|
| Source: https://theproductiveengineer.net/is-it-faster-to-
| write-in-c...
|
| And also for many years I wrote cursive, then I switched to
| something that looks like D'Neal, and it was somewhat faster
| and easier to read (but not _super_ fast)
| detourdog wrote:
| I think cursive existed due to the technology of the pen
| required a technique that managed the surface tension of
| the ink.
| ghaff wrote:
| I actually wonder if shorthand would be a useful skill for
| a lot of people. I never learned it (though I sort of had
| my own informal system) and, indeed, basically never typed
| until college (and never learned to touch-type) because
| those were things _secretaries_ did back in the day.
| ghaff wrote:
| There are pens that will record audio and you can make a
| short note that will take you straight to the location in the
| audio recording when you review.
|
| I don't do enough these days where I need something like that
| but, when I did more journalism where I was quoting people it
| might have been useful. A lot of meetings I'm in are recorded
| anyway and recording is pretty routine for interviews anyway.
|
| The other thing with taking written notes versus typing is
| being behind a laptop screen can be a bit off-putting.
| falcor84 wrote:
| Playing the devil's advocate here, why should we teach
| handwriting at all? Why not just have first-graders learn to
| type?
| throwanem wrote:
| With that attitude, why bother even teaching them to type?
| Only nerds use keyboards any more, Grandpa - everything these
| days happens on a phone.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| Much less meaningful work happens on a phone than on an
| actual computer, at a keyboard.
|
| This isn't true of handwriting vs. typing.
| version_five wrote:
| Generally this is true, but I'd say that for certain
| endeavors, like math, more meaningful work happens in
| handwriting. True as well for various kinds of planning
| or brainstorming, etc.
|
| Also, definitely more volume of work happens on a
| computer at a keyboard. How meaningful it is is
| debatable. Recent events have shown what I believe Orwell
| said long ago, that most of what we write is just
| mindless concatenation of premade phrases. Computers make
| that easier, but it's not obvious that that activity is
| where the meaning comes in to work
| nordsieck wrote:
| > Playing the devil's advocate here, why should we teach
| handwriting at all? Why not just have first-graders learn to
| type?
|
| I really can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.
|
| The most obvious response is: sometimes you have to fill out
| forms on the spot.
|
| Also, I personally find that I have much greater retention
| for handwritten vs typed information.
| kakapo88 wrote:
| Also, even in the future, the power will go off once in
| awhile. Hand-writing would be like swimming. Not
| necessarily used much, but a skill worth keeping.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| The level of training you need for basic swimming is only
| a couple hours. The teaching for handwriting is a _lot_
| more than that.
|
| Anyone who uses the latin alphabet will have the
| character shapes memorized, so I'm sure they'd do just
| fine for emergency use even if they'd basically never
| written before.
|
| That said, a huge amount of handwriting curriculum is
| actually motor skills practice, and that's pretty
| important!
| quitit wrote:
| "Also, I personally find that I have much greater retention
| for handwritten vs typed information."
|
| Studies support your anecdote:
| https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/taking-notes-by-
| hand-c...
| dougSF70 wrote:
| All of those studies were funded by Big Pencil
| companies...a lot of bias.
| warent wrote:
| I wonder if that retention has to do with having learned
| handwriting before typing, and that one who learns typing
| first would have equal retention to one who writes. Would
| be interesting if a study is done on this! (Of course,
| carefully, so as not at the expense of children)
| didntreadarticl wrote:
| _Playing the devil 's advocate here ... _
|
| _I really can 't tell if you're being sarcastic or not ...
| _
| ghaff wrote:
| That's an argument for learning how to print though (which
| I agree is necessary) rather than learning cursive.
| [deleted]
| pfdietz wrote:
| Cursive has a single real use these days: signatures.
| detourdog wrote:
| I had people insisting I had to learn cursive up until 6th
| grade and it magically stopped. I always felt I was hiding
| something until about right at this moment.
| znpy wrote:
| Handwriting in cursive with a fountain pen is a pleasure, not
| a chore.
|
| I use a simple pelikan jazz (nothing fancy) but still it's
| pleasant.
| jim-jim-jim wrote:
| Writing is an entirely different mental process. I find that
| I remember things far better if I write them on paper instead
| of in a text file. If anything, schools should go the
| opposite route and be as computer/tablet free as possible. I
| suspect the richer ones will.
|
| This would be a better thought out argument if I weren't
| typing it from the toilet.
| quitit wrote:
| Even if the goal isn't to learn handwriting. Learning
| handwriting is an excellent means to develop fine motor
| movement. Many of our modern tools utilise the precision we
| learned in handwriting to perform other functions. Whether
| that's a painter using a brush, or a surgeon using a scalpel,
| or everything in between.
|
| Our non-dominant hand almost gives us a preview of what this
| could be like, so it seems that spending time to upskill the
| articulation of our hands is necessary: so we might as well
| use that time to learn handwriting since it has the benefit
| of working without electricity and translates well into the
| aforementioned tools.
| renewiltord wrote:
| I'm with you. I'm quite successful by any measure and my
| handwriting is atrocious. My mum would do home handwriting
| assignments with her left hand for me so I could play and
| explore nature (we lived in a rural place).
|
| I doubt I'd be any more advanced in my life if my handwriting
| were better. In fact, looking back at the kids in school I
| know with beautiful handwriting and the ones who were messy,
| I don't see any real correlation. It's pretty random.
| nerdponx wrote:
| We did both in school in the late 90s. We had "computer"
| class 2-3 times a week where we learned touch typing, as well
| as "penmanship" where we learned print and cursive
| handwriting.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| Based.
|
| I write by hand so rarely now that it hurts my hand to do.
| (And I was in the cursive cohort. Pretty useless skill in
| retrospect lol. It's just a way less legible version of
| regular handwriting.)
| ghaff wrote:
| I learned Palmer script. It was always my worst class in
| grade school. But I can look through years of notes and see
| it steadily deteriorate to the point that I really can't do
| cursive any longer (and yes, it hurts my hand to do it for
| anything beyond a minimal period).
| throwanem wrote:
| If you want to learn to write in a way that isn't
| painful, learn to use a fountain pen - a $20 Pilot
| Metropolitan, or a Lamy Safari for I believe about the
| same, will do more than well enough.
|
| Pencils and ballpoints, and to a lesser but real extent
| most rollerballs, require so much force to mark the paper
| that you can't help getting a cramp. Fountain pen ink is
| thinner and flows more easily, so all you have to do is
| steer the pen. This makes a very significant difference.
|
| Don't start with a gold-nibbed pen - both of those I
| named use steel. Gold admittedly feels nicer to use, but
| you need the transitional step to learn better habits;
| steel is much more forgiving of excess force, and you'll
| know on your own when you're ready for a more delicate
| and expressive nib.
|
| I used to hate to write longhand, too. I've been using
| fountain pens for about half a decade now. A few days ago
| I used one to work out a complex idea over eight A5 pages
| with no need to pause save occasionally for thought, and
| my wrist wasn't sore afterward. Here as elsewhere,
| choosing the proper tool makes all the difference.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Cursive is faster than print, but I'm less sure that the
| cost/benefit is there.
| kylecazar wrote:
| Somewhat relatedly, I recently went on a months long mission to
| reacquaint myself with cursive. I hadn't used it since grade
| school, and had almost totally forgotten many characters.
|
| It was fun, and felt good to accomplish something so useless.
| cratermoon wrote:
| Cursive as taught in American schools was never very practical,
| for a lot of reasons. But writing by hand is an important
| skill, and the block letter style they teach kids isn't really
| up to the task of writing long passages. I recommend learning
| the Getty-Dubay italic style. It's a bit like block letters but
| with strokes and joiners designed for both legibility and
| speed. I spent a good two months with the book some 20 years
| ago and the before-and-after of my handwriting, while not
| dramatic, is clear to me, and I write faster.
| https://handwritingsuccess.com/write-now/
| throwanem wrote:
| Hardly useless. Over something like three thousand pages of
| work notes and personal diary since I discovered the habit in
| 2018, I've learned there's something to the idea that longhand
| writing eases access to a somewhat unique mode of thought.
|
| There's craftsmanship to it, too. It's not something I
| anticipated, but I do enjoy for its own sake not being the
| anglophone sort of _wapurobaka_ any more.
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