[HN Gopher] Anxiety can be created by the body, mouse heart stud...
___________________________________________________________________
Anxiety can be created by the body, mouse heart study suggests
Author : gmays
Score : 89 points
Date : 2023-03-02 20:05 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| code51 wrote:
| So obvious that it makes you question the effectiveness of
| medical research.
|
| The association between mitral valve prolapse and anxiety is
| well-known. However this physical difference is completely
| ignored when it's mild. In the general population, mild prolapse
| is seen as a common thing.
|
| However there are also diseases caused by genetic mutations which
| cause both mitral valve changes and also a whole set of body
| problems including chronic pain, elasticity, vascular problems
| etc. The underlying causes are so under-researched that an easily
| fixable problem tied to a gene becomes a progressive disease over
| a lifetime which is damn hard to diagnose. You suddenly see that
| too few resources are dedicated to actually understand and solve
| medical problems instead of treating symptoms when they get
| severe.
|
| Plus... coffee is a pretty good way to kick off anxiety and we
| know it for at least a century I guess.
| haswell wrote:
| > _So obvious that it makes you question the effectiveness of
| medical research._
|
| The point of medical research - especially the kind that seems
| obvious - is not just to discover new things, but to confirm
| what we think is obvious really, indeed, is obvious, and this
| isn't always the conclusion of such research.
| pizza wrote:
| The body generates a hurricane of consciously-interpretable
| signals. A lot of people can agree with "anxiety can come from
| the body", but I think it's worth going further - anxiety can be
| _computed_ , all over the body, and then the brain is a bit of an
| internet/routing hub itself for all those messages.
| roywiggins wrote:
| > It's possible, he says, that this heart-brain loop evolved to
| help animals process danger signals more quickly: when the animal
| sees a potential threat, even before the brain can fully process
| what the situation means, the heart rate rises, essentially
| telling the brain that it should be worried.
|
| I suppose, but how does the information about danger get from the
| eyes to the heart to the brain faster than from the eyes to the
| brain?
| lubujackson wrote:
| Brain is still in charge - I think the key is bypassing
| consciousness and reacting sub-consciously. Which makes sense,
| your body will starts releasing adrenaline before you ever
| think "oh no!"
| graderjs wrote:
| Yes that's why yoga is so good at calming you down and making you
| healthy. It soothes and calms the parasympathetic nervous system,
| and helps relieve and release many held tensions in the body.
|
| It's no good just to do meditation and calm your mind if your
| body and nervous system is still holding on to so much stress.
|
| The body remembers many things and "embodies" many emotions. You
| can notice this if you do part-by-part relaxation. Lie down in
| corpse pose and close your eyes, and relax each part of your body
| by turn. From right toes, through feet, ankles, calves, shins,
| knees, thighs, hips. Then the left leg. Then right fingertips and
| the rest of the right arm. Then left arm. Then abdomen. Then
| chest. Then spine. Then head.
|
| The more granular you go with relaxing each part of the anatomy,
| the more intense (and longer in duration) it is. [E.g. in feet
| you can do: relax each toe, toe nail, first joint of the big toe,
| ball of the big toe, next toe. Then soul of the foot. Then inner
| side of the foot. Then outer side. Then top of the foot. Then
| inside the foot. Bones and joints in the foot. Muslces and
| tendons in the foot. Nerves of the foot. Skin of the foot.] Relax
| each part. Let of any tension in each part. And move on.
|
| Anyway, you can just do a level of anatomical granularity you are
| comfortable with. But what you will probably notice is that as
| you go over your body doing this, your mind will wander, and
| stuff you hadn't thought about the entire day (or longer) will
| come up. Some annoying or painful or traumatic moment or whatever
| will arise, as you hit on some particular body part. And it will
| interrupt your relaxation. So you just stay with it, and then
| keep going, relaxing your body. Skeptical folks will probably
| doubt that there's a correlation between a body part and a
| "stored" emotion or experience, but in that case I encourage you
| to try it. Relaxing the body in this way really relieves and
| releases many things stored in it, that without bringing
| awareness to them in this way, you would not have realized.
| bitL wrote:
| Wouldn't a nicotine patch to sync para- and sympathetic systems
| help?
| graderjs wrote:
| I don't know. Nicotine can produce that intense relaxation.
| But why take a toxin for what you can get with just your body
| and some intelligent practices? All upside. Except it takes
| effort! :) But the longer term effects are way better for
| yoga than nicotine. Those two paths diverge pretty quickly by
| a lot I think.
| winnit wrote:
| Nicotine is only toxic in high doses, which naturally
| greatly exceed that which you get from a patch. You could
| say the same thing about basically anything; say someone
| recommended eating a banana to cure cramps. Potassium is
| also toxic in high doses. I agree yoga is a great practice
| but that doesn't exclude the beneficial effects nicotine
| can provide. For example, I can chew nicotine gum during
| exams but I can't do yoga.
| time_to_smile wrote:
| > It's no good just to do meditation and calm your mind if your
| body and nervous system is still holding on to so much stress.
|
| I just want to point out that for nearly all of its history
| yoga is _primarily_ about meditation, with the asanas being
| preliminary, quickly covered material in most classic texts.
|
| The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali are a good reference for anyone
| curious (though the sections on the siddhis is... interesting).
| mrtesthah wrote:
| That's actually not what the paper is saying. It's only
| comparing heart rate changes to anxiety.
| huehehue wrote:
| > It soothes and calms the parasympathetic nervous system
|
| Wouldn't you want to stimulate the parasympathetic nervous
| system? Not calm it?
| graderjs wrote:
| Hehe. The linguist has identified a distinction. Whatever
| works for you: maybe some stimulation, maybe some relaxation.
| :)
|
| We calm it and maybe it isn't active. We stimulate it and
| then it's relaxing us. I see what you're saying.
|
| Is there another side to it? Isn't _calm_ and _soothed_ a
| form of stimulation? An active, easy coherence?
|
| Maybe we don't want to be over-stimulated. Stimulated in the
| right way creates coherence, in the wrong way, chaos. We can
| be calm--and active. Or we can be stimulated--and uneasy.
|
| You don't have to worry that it won't be stimulated in the
| right way when it's calmed and soothed: it will be. And
| that's what you want.
|
| So, I don't think you can go wrong with a calm and soothed
| parasympathetic nervous system. That's the way to go. For me,
| soothes and calms is coherence. And that's good for your
| body, and good for you, it's what you'll feel when you do
| yoga.
| anubiskhan wrote:
| I would argue that the verb forms of calm and sooth connote
| stimulation, whereas the adjective form of calm might be a
| lack of stimuli. I'm not sure there is a present tense
| adjective form of sooth? But certainly one might say, "this
| music is very calming" so in that case the stimulus is
| causing the non-stimulated (by my definition) state...
| Offsetting the anxiety causing stimuli? I am neither a
| linguist nor a medical professional, but you got me
| thinking! Thanks.
|
| Someone smarter than me please let me know :D
| fidrelity wrote:
| I think the non-scientific explanation is that with
| conditions such as anxiety and chronic stress it's
| consistently engaged, but only slightly (like background
| noise).
|
| You need to fully stimulate it for it to relax afterwards.
| That can also be accomplished with breathing exercises, ice
| baths, etc.
| graderjs wrote:
| _That can also be accomplished with breathing exercises,
| ice baths, etc._
|
| Or yoga...That stretching! And posture.
| mrtesthah wrote:
| The parasympathetic nervous system is a control mechanism
| over the sympathetic nervous system. When the latter is
| stimulated, you become anxious and excited. When the former
| is stimulated, it tamps down on the latter, causing you to
| relax. Either one or the other is active.
|
| "Relaxing" the parasympathetic system would therefore free
| the sympathetic nervous system to activate more strongly,
| thereby making you _more_ anxious.
|
| It's distracting and disorienting when people appropriate
| medical and scientific language to explain their internal
| experience of the world. One is measured through
| experiment, the other through direct perception.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| I experience my digestive processes as anxiety.
|
| There's no reason for it, but for whatever reason it triggers
| anxiety.
|
| I can't explain beyond that, and I'm very familiar with my own
| conscious anxieties and triggers outside this.
|
| It just is that.
| zacharyvoase wrote:
| People with anxiety could have told you this :)
| can16358p wrote:
| Exactly. I have anxiety and panic attacks. When my heart beats
| faster for whatever reason, it triggers anxiety and in more
| extreme cases, panic attack. It's kind of obvious, really.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| I certainly would start feeling anxious if my heart rate
| increased almost 50% for no discernible reason.
| corobo wrote:
| Same happens whenever it dips too, and if it stops
| completely you get a feeling of "impending doom" (infinite
| anxiety haha). For example using adenosine to turn the
| heart off and on again if it's acting wonky.
|
| Maybe just messing with the heart causes anxiety lol. Brain
| there like "wait, I didn't tell you to do that.. red
| alert!"
| cj wrote:
| And it often compounds.
|
| E.g. I have hyperhydrosis (excessive sweating). When my hands
| start sweating (for no good reason), I get anxious especially
| when around people expecting a handshake, which makes me more
| anxious which makes the hand sweating worse.
|
| (If anyone suffers from the same re: sweating, ask you doctor
| about glycopyrrolate - it's one of those drugs that is
| completely life changing for anyone with excessive sweating
| and with minimal/tolerable side effects)
|
| Propranolol is also a godsend for anxiety (also with minimal
| side effects, unlike benzos , etc)
| can16358p wrote:
| Yup. Just thinking about panic attack getting worse or
| experiencing any of the effects like sweating or pounding
| heart (regardless of the cause) starts a bad positive
| feedback loop (more panic, more sweat/heart pounding, then
| more panic because of that) until the doom/derealization
| and fight-or-flight kicks in. I can easily call that
| feeling "the worst/most frightening experience ever" in my
| whole life.
| mecsred wrote:
| People in general will tell you a lot of things. We're wrong
| most of the time, that's why we do studies.
| ehPReth wrote:
| I hope they can one day just dial down my anxiety... benzos are
| nice, but you become dependant on them and increasingly require
| more after a while :/
| whalesalad wrote:
| breathwork and meditation is very powerful
| spython wrote:
| There are actually exercises where you imagine a dial, like a
| volume knob, and imagine dialing the emotion that you want to
| regulate down a bit. The astonishing thing is, it works quite
| well!
| corobo wrote:
| I picture sliders like on an audio mixing desk haha. Always
| good to see you're not (the only one who is) crazy!
| JohnBooty wrote:
| I didn't even know that this was a matter of debate.
|
| I had moderately serious heart problem (atrial murmur, sort of
| the less-serious cousin of afib/atrial fibrilation) and it was
| _extremely_ clear to me that whatever was happening in my chest
| was also directly spiking my feelings of anxiety.
|
| To be clear, I mean a direct heart->anxiety link, as opposed to
| "I'm thinking about my heart problem and therefore my anxiety is
| spiking" indirect link. On an experiential level it was _very,
| very_ distinct from, say, being stressed out because your toenail
| hurts.
|
| I realize that I'm a sample of one, and self-diagnosing phenomena
| like that is not particularly reliable. However, it was so
| crystal clear to me that I would consider it something close to
| truth and would place the burden of proof on anybody looking to
| claim otherwise.
|
| There would certainly seem to be a significant biological
| advantage there, to having certain biological situations (pain,
| etc) cause a spike in corisol etc directly, as opposed to relying
| on the slower and less reliable processing our wonderful brains
| can provide. Especially in species with far simpler brains than
| humans.
| memco wrote:
| Indeed! There's so much overlap between the symptoms of chronic
| kidney disease[0] and anxiety[1] it would be difficult to know
| which is which.
|
| [0]: https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/kidney-
| disease/... [1]:
| https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/anxiety-disorders
| [deleted]
| AeroNotix wrote:
| I have GERD.
|
| Prior to properly getting diagnosed I went through a bunch of
| tests and episodes because the sensations manifested as heart-
| attack-like symptoms. I can tell you the anxiety produced was,
| ... palpable.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| That much have been an ordeal. A sibling poster posted about
| a friend having a very similar experience.
| aszantu wrote:
| see gutsense.org, maybe it helps.
|
| also helped me to eat more gelatine (one teaspoon in the
| morning), seemingly the body can work these amino acids very
| fast and it sounds crazy but I felt the effects within a day.
| The main problem didn't go away for a long time, but a lot of
| small side issues went away.
| orgels_revenge wrote:
| Eat potassium and chelated magnesium
| adversaryIdiot wrote:
| Are you saying that once I get my Aortic valve replacement that
| I'll be less anxious?
| JohnBooty wrote:
| Most importantly: best wishes. I'm sure you've been through a
| looooot. I hope there are brighter days ahead.
|
| Does your current valve situation cause an elevated heart
| rate, presumably because your heart is is compensating for
| not pumping as _efficiently_ as it should?
|
| I had a different issue and I'm extremely unqualified to have
| an opinion here, but based on my personal experience I'd be
| willing to put down a pretty decent sum of money on a bet
| that lowering your heart rate will reduce your anxiety
| directly.
|
| (And then you'll of course have lower stress in general I
| should think, because you won't be worrying about the
| upcoming valve replacement and all the uncertainly
| surrounding a major operation. But that part is pretty clear,
| I would think)
|
| Good luck!
| cauthon wrote:
| Bradycardia is more commonly associated with aortic valve
| regurgitation or stenosis, not tachycardia.
|
| My understanding is that the heart compensates for the
| dysfunctional valve by attempting to pump a greater volume
| with each stroke.
| adversaryIdiot wrote:
| Yeah, I discovered it by trying to figure out why my
| resting heart rate and blood pressure was higher than it
| should be for an athletic person. Used to take beta
| blockers to slow things down (Which I do wanna say made me
| more calm). Turns out the medication was causing more
| damage, ACE inhibitors would have been better. Right now
| I'm not taking anything.
|
| Just getting tests every 6 months and waiting for the time
| to come. I have fine resting heart rate around 70bpm and
| 130 blood pressure avg. (These numbers went down after
| college)
| [deleted]
| hinkley wrote:
| I have a friend with panic attacks and she was pretty much the
| last one in our circle of friends to figure out that stomach
| distress was triggering attacks. The Vagus nerve is a puppet
| master and it can fuck with your sense of well-being on a good
| day, but if you have an adrenal disorder, good fucking luck.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| stomach distress was triggering attacks. The Vagus nerve is
| a puppet master and it can fuck with your sense of well-being
| on a good day
|
| This rings true. I had one actual panic attack in my life and
| it was absolutely wild and confusing.
|
| For the life of me, I couldn't figure out what caused it. I
| certainly was not particularly mentally stressed out that
| day. I'm not even really anxious in general compared to
| others. I am middle aged and have had a lot of acutely
| stressful days _without_ panic attacks, and also just... a
| lot of days in general... so I can 't imagine why an
| unstressful day lead to one.
|
| It certainly didn't feel like it originated within my brain.
| It felt like my body was triggering it. It felt like an
| incident in the past when I was diagnosed with acute
| pericarditis and nearly died. However, when I went to the ER
| following the panic attack, they found nothing physically
| wrong on the EKG.
|
| Of course, we are not necessarily biologically or cognitively
| well-equipped to self-diagnose "why" our brains are feeling a
| particular thing. But nonetheless whether it was my vagus
| nerve or something else, it certainly felt like it originated
| outside of my mind.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| As far as I know, it isn't. I have anxiety as part of the
| bipolar package. And every psychiatrist I've had says that
| increased blood pressure can trigger anxiety.
|
| They can both feel like tightness in the chest and from what I
| was told, the brain isn't good at separating signals. So your
| body feeling anxious leads to your brain feeling anxious. It's
| a wonderful cycle. Throw in asthma for more fun. Now you have
| three possible problems that can all trigger each other! Get
| sick and feel short of breath? Now you have four! Aren't bodies
| fun? :D
| JohnBooty wrote:
| That's a wild package. You are dealing with a lot. I hope you
| are able to step back and give yourself credit once in a
| while for dealing with so much. The world is full of secret
| superheroes, mustering up a lot of strength and ingenuity to
| get through their days. You are one of them.
|
| No bipolar here but for years I struggled with asthma for
| years. It is quite the addition to the whole anxiety mix. It
| definitely took me quite a while to figure out I was dealing
| with a heart issue, because the symptoms were really similar
| to asthma.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| > The world is full of secret superheroes, mustering up a
| lot of strength and ingenuity to get through their days.
|
| I know you mean well, but I don't like being thought of as
| a superhero. It defines me by my limitations and hold me up
| as something exceptional. I actually find this to be quite
| harmful. :(
|
| Consider this: I only need to be exceptional because
| society would not allow me to be successful otherwise.
| There are many others with my disability who aren't.
|
| It borders on the edge of inspiration porn[1].
|
| 1:
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewpulrang/2019/11/29/how-
| to...
|
| I hope my comment isn't too harsh. It's been a long day. :)
| mjfl wrote:
| lack of anxiety is actually one of the measures of brain damage
| in mice.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| BRB, grabbing a hammer.
| ahoho wrote:
| > "It was a chicken-and-egg question that has been the subject of
| debate for a century," says Karl Deisseroth, a neuroscientist at
| Stanford University in California
|
| Huh, I'd have said this idea was already well-established. I'm
| curious how this finding is different than the existing evidence
| that bodily sensations can influence emotions. I mean, I can't be
| the only one who feels anxious when I've had too many cups of
| coffee or ate something funny
| pessimizer wrote:
| Anxiety is only ever created by the body. I understand the
| experiment, but I don't understand what this headline is supposed
| to mean. I think somebody is letting their liberal arts leak into
| their science.
|
| External things don't cause anxiety. Anxiety often occurs as a
| reaction to external things. Of course anxiety might be caused by
| a faster heartbeat; one of the symptoms of anxiety is a faster
| heartbeat. You can also cause it with injections of adrenaline,
| or amphetamines. Lack of oxygen works, too.
|
| Maybe this seems profound because the mice can't explain their
| feelings?
| nick__m wrote:
| It was already know that the peptide fragment CCK-4 reliably
| causes sever panic panic attack when administered in doses of 50
| mg. And CCK4 is fragment of an hormone produced by the duodenum.
|
| If the small intestine can trigger a panic attack, it's not that
| surprising that other organs can also create anxiety.
| [deleted]
| awestroke wrote:
| Is there maybe some kind of link between the body and the brain,
| perhaps? /s
| code_duck wrote:
| I had anxiety for years, coming and going unpredictably. Not
| being worried -about- something realistic, just a very jittery
| feeling paired with brain fog, concentration problems and mood
| swings. Eventually I was diagnosed with Celiac disease and I
| almost never feel that way any longer, except when I'm
| accidentally exposed to gluten.
| amelius wrote:
| Yes, as a bruxism sufferer, I know that relaxing the jaw has a
| calming effect.
| ycombinete wrote:
| How do you relax your jaw. I have bruxism and can't seem to
| relax it ever.
| amelius wrote:
| Relax the throat. Your throat muscles are in a constant
| battle with your masseter muscles to keep the jaw stabile.
| francisofascii wrote:
| This could explain what is happening with long covid. Many
| sufferers (including me) complain about feeling anxious and
| stressed, along with insomnia. We assume it is from the worry of
| being sick or having to deal with life. But maybe myocarditis
| which is common with Covid is causing the anxiety and insomnia.
| Suffers need sleep and the removal of stress to heal, so people
| are stuck in an endless loop.
| bobblywobbles wrote:
| Yes! And if you have problems with anxiety, it may be helpful to
| simulate your vagus nerve to help calm your body down. Taking
| cold showers, massaging your ear, eating probiotics are all
| things that I've personally been doing and I feel a general
| improvement of my own anxious feelings. It's such an
| easy/accessible way to manage anxiety; I would think it should be
| more mainstream.
| time_to_smile wrote:
| It's remarkable how deeply ingrained in our worldview mind/body
| dualism is, even though I think on paper most people _don 't_
| accept this as an axiom.
|
| If anxiety is not created by the body where does it originate
| from? extra terrestrial beings? the immortal soul? purely in our
| surrounding environment?
|
| All of these (except the third option) require pretty impressive
| assumptions to even be a workable hypothesis.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Makes sense. On days I skip eating for the whole day I will get a
| sense of impending doom later in the day. Just "something is
| going to really badly somewhere!"
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| When I over trained and under ate, it caused such existential
| doom ... words can't explain.
| cududa wrote:
| I've had anxiety my whole life. Tried CBT, therapy, medication,
| everything.
|
| Eventually got diagnosed with a congenital heart disease. Turns
| out, when your heart is behaving in a way that mirrors symptoms
| of anxiety, your brain decides you're anxious. Your brain just
| picks something to be anxious about, because there's no mental
| reason for anxiety.
|
| Within a week of being on the heart meds my anxiety mostly
| disappeared. Still get anxious from time to time, but over actual
| things and it's manageable. But, was really a life changer
| jedberg wrote:
| Ah, another "bad medical thing found! .... in mice".
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| > Mice and rats have long served as the preferred species for
| biomedical research animal models due to their anatomical,
| physiological, and genetic similarity to humans. Advantages of
| rodents include their small size, ease of maintenance, short
| life cycle, and abundant genetic resources.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3987984/
|
| It's almost as if research is done on mice _on purpose_. Of
| course you 're going to see new discoveries, positive or
| negative, come out of studies involving the most widely used
| test subject on the planet.
| zug_zug wrote:
| I think the iron-man argument is -- wouldn't it be much less
| a waste of everybody's time here if we never posted mice
| articles, and only waited until they go to the human stage to
| share/discuss them?
|
| Of course it's a free community, people are welcome to post
| and upvote whatever they like, still we do have cultural
| norms here around high signal/noise and I understand the
| sentiment.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| I mean, that's the entire purpose of the algorithm and
| downvoting things. Our "cultural norms" are to downvote and
| ignore if something doesn't interest us. Not to explicitly
| whine about something being posted in the first place.
|
| Does a comment complaining about the high signal/noise
| ratio do anything but discourage discussion?
| jedberg wrote:
| And in a lot of cases, these headlines talk about some
| amazing discovery, only for it to not actually apply to
| humans.
| kerowak wrote:
| I'm not sure what your objection is. The article pretty
| clearly qualifies its assertions that this phenomenon is
| observed _in mice._ Are you saying there is no possible way
| that these results could be recapitulated in humans?
| jedberg wrote:
| I'm saying that we see article after article about
| breakthrough findings in mice, only to find out later
| that it doesn't apply to humans, and therefore findings
| in mice aren't particularly interesting news.
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| Except when they do apply to humans. For example,
| intracellular bacterial communities formed by
| uropathogenic E. coli were observed in mice before
| humans.
| Teever wrote:
| Does this generality apply to this specific situation? Do
| you even know?
|
| Does the generic 'yah but it sez in mouse' really add
| anything to the conversation?
|
| I'd love to hear from an expert on the subject, thats why
| I'm on HN.
| [deleted]
| layman51 wrote:
| This is pretty interesting finding. I think the idea that the
| body itself can produce emotions has been around for a while. I
| remember an essay by William James about this.[0]
|
| [0]: https://www.themarginalian.org/2016/01/11/what-is-an-
| emotion...
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-03-03 23:01 UTC)