[HN Gopher] Human height remained unchanged for 2k years in Mila...
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Human height remained unchanged for 2k years in Milan, finds study
Author : pseudolus
Score : 64 points
Date : 2023-02-27 11:51 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (phys.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (phys.org)
| therein wrote:
| Tangentially related. Here is an interesting inscription on the
| Cattedrale di San Lorenzo.
|
| > Janus, primus Rex Italiae de progenie gigantum, qui fundavit
| Genuam temporae Abrahae
|
| Translated:
|
| > Janus, the first ruler of Italy, of the progeny of the giants,
| who founded Genoa in the days of Abraham
| knodi123 wrote:
| from wikipedia, I learned
|
| The city's modern name may derive from the Latin word meaning
| "knee", but there are other theories. It could derive from the
| god Janus, because Genoa, like him, has two faces: a face that
| looks at the sea and another turned to the mountains. Or it
| could come from the Latin word ianua, also related to the name
| of the God Janus, and meaning "door", or "passage." Besides
| that, it may refer to its geographical position at the centre
| of the Ligurian coastal arch. The Latin name, oppidum Genua, is
| recorded by Pliny the Elder as part of the Augustean Regio IX
| Liguria.
| asimpletune wrote:
| Milan is a part of Italy that is known for not really having a
| lot of natural disasters, access to a lot of water, and is
| basically all flat ground. I wonder if this has something to do
| with that?
| v8xi wrote:
| That's what they seem to hint at in the final sentence.
|
| > "Suggesting to the study authors that city life in Milan has
| provided a stable environment for thousands of years"
|
| This does throw a wrench in prevailing thought that improved
| childhood nutrition is leading to taller people. I would guess
| that, when it comes to changes in stature,
| environment/nutrition are more cataclysmic effectors while
| genetics vis-a-vis sexual preferences play a more sustained
| role in shaping it. i.e. in a stable environment you would
| expect change mostly to be effected by the cultural preference
| of taller/shorter people.
|
| On cataclysmic effectors - one really interesting study I think
| back on often[1] is a serendipitous survey of island lizards
| hind-leg lengths before and after a major hurricane season.
| Basically, they found that over the course of one year, there
| was a 6% reduction in the populations leg lengths due to, they
| claim, the taller ones being unable to hold onto trees during
| the storms.
|
| [1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/lizards-
| with-b...
| throwaway33381 wrote:
| Ehh you can't draw that conclusion. North and South Koreans
| have a 7 height difference of 6 inches. What's more likely
| happening here is that the Milanese diet has no changed since
| the Roman Era. Or has to changed very little in meaningful
| ways, i.e. more nutritious meals.
| consumer451 wrote:
| > the Milanese diet has no changed since the Roman Era. Or
| has to changed very little in meaningful ways, i.e. more
| nutritious meals.
|
| Interesting to note that potatoes, tomatoes, and pasta were
| not present in their diet during Roman times.
| throwaway33381 wrote:
| True. But the average Korean was also around and often
| under 4 feet tall up until the 1950s. So yeah. Now
| depending where you are they average 6 feet. And well,
| they haven't been ethnically replaced. So unless the
| Koreans have a magic gene that has made them gain 2 feet
| in height. No, it's definitely their diet.
| telotortium wrote:
| Maybe Korea's issue (as well as other East Asian
| countries) issue with a rice-based diet (especially white
| rice) in the absence of modern levels of consumption of
| meat or other animal-derived food. While bread
| (especially whole bread) has some level of protein in and
| of itself, and Italians have also had cheese and milk
| available at least some of the time, trying to survive
| off of a diet of rice and vegetables must be particularly
| unsuited to growing to your genetic potential. My
| impression of Korean food is that it would be quite
| unsatisfying from a nutritional standpoint without the
| meat, whereas Indian and even Chinese food seem to be a
| little more nutritious.
| oefrha wrote:
| You have to provide a credible reference for a ridiculous
| claim like this. Cursory search says Korean's average
| height has grown about 6 inches in a century. Two feet or
| 50% taller might as be a new subspecies.
| brianbreslin wrote:
| Here's an article from a credible source on Korean
| height.
| https://www.vox.com/videos/2023/2/23/23611947/world-
| south-ko...
| ChrisHyung wrote:
| In stark contrast to Milan. Koreans were steadily around
| 5'3"/4'10" in the Joseon era, 15th to 19th century, then grew
| 6 inches in the past century. Improved childhood nutrition
| might not lead to a taller population, but poor childhood
| nutrition definitely leads to shorter adult height.
|
| https://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20120131000667
| danans wrote:
| > This does throw a wrench in prevailing thought that
| improved childhood nutrition is leading to taller people.
|
| It absolutely can lead to taller people if the genetic height
| potential had been suppressed by poor childhood nutrition.
| You see this in stark form in developing countries where
| heights are rising rapidly (sometimes nearly a foot in one
| generation in individual cases). It's not only nutrition -
| it's access to more modern medicine, including vaccines and
| treatments, and improved sanitation that prevent childhood
| diseases that stunted people in the past.
|
| If a population is already on average at its maximum genetic
| height potential, however, improved nutrition and healthcare
| isn't going to change height much.
| pmontra wrote:
| Anecdotally, in the Milan area in every single generation
| of people I know, the males are taller than both parents
| and the females are often taller than their mother.
| telotortium wrote:
| How much taller? People do shrink in height a few
| centimeters starting at age 40.
| jeffreyrogers wrote:
| It's also been one of the wealthiest parts of the world since
| Roman times.
| iosono88 wrote:
| Just curious, do these studies ever control for age? I know there
| were issues with life expectancy studies when looked at through
| the ages not taking into account the high rates of infanticide.
| Could the same issue be here with younger and older generations
| being shorter.
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