[HN Gopher] Popular education in Sweden: much more than you want...
___________________________________________________________________
Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know
(2022)
Author : cdwhite
Score : 150 points
Date : 2023-02-26 12:35 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.lesswrong.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.lesswrong.com)
| null_object wrote:
| This gives a really distorted image of the real Sweden I know.
| 99% of kids in real Sweden are definitely not hanging out at
| these educational centers: in this massively conformist society
| (especially for teenagers), the kids are getting hold of beer as
| soon as they can, driving cars to the nearest petrol station or
| out-of-town car parks, and burning tire marks in the asphalt.
|
| This sort of article is just window-dressing for what it's really
| like to live in this mostly restricted and limited land, out in
| the boondocks.
|
| Swedes living abroad probably actually believe this nostalgic
| fiction of their homeland.
| j_crick wrote:
| As a non-Swede, I didn't get the bit about "massively
| conformist society". Could you please expand on it a little or
| point to some reading about it?
| emj wrote:
| 99% are a lot; there would be a constant mist of rubber if they
| all left scorch marks on the asphalt. I grew up in the tail end
| of what is described, not a part of it but took advantage of
| it. I believe the author grew up when that movement did have a
| lot of money and engagement, that then faltered in the economic
| down turn of the 90ies and with the down fall of the Swedish
| farmers party.
|
| It is still strong, but not as extreme as it used to be.
| xpe wrote:
| I'm interested in your perspective. What is "real" Sweden to
| you? Rural? Urban? Something else? Can you share a little about
| where you live? Your age or life phase at least?
|
| P.S. A bit of direct but constructive criticism: the problem
| with saying 99% is that is comes across as overly specific,
| even simplistic. It begs the question: have you quantified your
| observations? Most people don't. Unfortunately, this makes it
| hard to reason statistically about variations in different
| perspectives.
| orwin wrote:
| I think you have a skewed views of 'kids these days' if you
| think they're getting beer a soon as they can.
|
| Data will tell you that alcohol consumption in Europe is down
| compared to my generation (millennial). They are also more
| engaged than previous generation, especially compared to the
| silent generation who basically let their elders kill popular
| education (I hear a lot of 'OK boomer', but let it be said that
| boomers fought to conserve our rights in my country, at least
| in their youth).
|
| Anyway.
| speed_spread wrote:
| I also prefer to think of rural Sweden as one big Simon
| Stalenhag painting. But I've seen enough of Canada's own
| boondocks to have an excellent idea of what you're describing,
| unfortunately. I just replace Chryslers with Volvos and Molson
| with, uh, Falcon?
| peterpost2 wrote:
| Clearly the Falcon should be replaced with Norrlands Guld.
| bazoom42 wrote:
| > Bildung etymologically refers to shaping yourself in the image
| (das Bild) of God
|
| Is this really true? The liked wikipedia page does not seem to
| support that.
| netrus wrote:
| It's complicated, but it's not wrong. [1]
|
| [1]
| https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildung#Begriffsbildung:~:text...
| leobg wrote:
| "Bild" is indeed "image". Though one also says "bilden" to mean
| "generate", "create", or "consist of". For instance, one might
| us it to say that two people "bilden" a team (i.e. make up a
| team).
| bazoom42 wrote:
| It was the "image _of God_ " part I doubted.
| leobg wrote:
| I know. I'm saying it may not have anything to do with an
| "image" at all. More with "composing oneself". But I
| haven't looked up the etymology.
| memling wrote:
| Not conclusive, but Luther uses the word Bild in his
| translation of Genesis 1. That it may have had or acquired
| the meaning pretty easily given the Bible's formative
| currency in those years.
| tremon wrote:
| The German wikipedia page does
| (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildung#Begriffsbildung):
|
| > _Der Begriff Bildung wurde von dem mittelalterlichen
| Theologen und Philosophen Meister Eckhart in die Deutsche
| Sprache eingefuhrt. Er bedeutete fur ihn das ,,Erlernen von
| Gelassenheit" und wurde als ,,Gottessache" angesehen, ,,damit
| der Mensch Gott ahnlich werde"_
|
| The term Bildung was introduced in the German language by the
| medieval theologist and philosopher Father Eckhart. To him, it
| referred to "acquiring through inner peace" and was considered
| godly: "so that man can become more like God".
|
| (excuse my German reading skill, it's not as godlike as I'd
| like it to be)
|
| That said, the equivalent Dutch word is "vorming", which
| translates literally as "shaping", so I don't the concept
| itself is religious in nature. As alluded (but not explicitly
| said) on the English page, I think the word lost its religious
| connotation by Humboldt's inclusion in his education model.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > one can debate the morality of funding book clubs with
| taxpayers' money
|
| You could debate it but I would find it hard to find better uses
| of that money if it is spent on those would otherwise not be able
| to afford such things.
| yobbo wrote:
| Libraries are already free. The money here is supposedly used
| for coffee (or whatever) while meeting and discussing books.
| Maken wrote:
| Their purpose is different. Libraries are for book storage,
| book clubs are for dissemination.
| chmod775 wrote:
| For countries where pre-school to university education is
| funded with taxpayers money and citizens have a right to
| education whenever they please, I don't think a book club is
| going to break the camel's back.
|
| I'm speaking as someone who has been enrolled in university
| for most of his adult life, attending whatever I feel like,
| while paying for it with my taxes. Public libraries, schools,
| and universities here have all sorts of clubs and events as
| part of their program.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Literacy goes a lot further than just access to a mountain of
| books, having the opportunity to meet with your peers and
| others to discuss those books makes it a much richer
| experience than reading alone. It can also serve as a reality
| check on some of the stuff that you find in books, and can
| help by pointing to other interesting reading material. Books
| are great, books plus other people is gold.
| nothing0001 wrote:
| I find a little sad that many people could change books and
| sharing experiences with others with using tools such as
| chatgpt. Those tools could be used to not discuss things
| like education and guide people to follow the agenda of the
| fine-tunnings authorities.
| Animats wrote:
| _" focus on communal self-improvement."_
|
| That's worth thinking about.
| amarant wrote:
| Damn that sounds awesome! As a Swede myself I feel like I missed
| out, and I wonder why I never saw anything like this in my youth?
|
| My best theory is there wasn't much in the very rural area where
| I grew up. There wasn't much of anything other than nature to be
| fair, so that kinda makes sense I guess...
| emj wrote:
| Sure there were, but the organized study circles in Sweden are
| tightly knit to workers movement, usually there is an house in
| a village somewhere ment for this purpose. If there are at
| least 1000 people living there you are guaranteed find one
| (usually pretty big with that population). The same was (is?)
| available in the US, I know there where "workers education
| centers" in NYC where you could learn arts etc before the
| fifties.
|
| This all needs people who are engaged in the movement and
| money, not a lot, but you do need a steady supply of money.
| progre wrote:
| >tightly knit to workers movement
|
| Most popular movements had/has their own study orgamisation.
|
| In rural Sweden it's just as likely to be Vuxenskolan, the
| study branch of the agrarian movement (Centern, 4H,
| hushallningssallskapet)
|
| ABF would be the workers study org, Medborgarskolan the
| conservatives.
|
| There are 10 national organsiations in all.
| gumby wrote:
| > This is a linkpost for
| https://escapingflatland.substack.com/p/popular-education-in...
|
| Dang, the link is just a ripoff repost; could you fix the URL to
| be the original above?
|
| I saw the same thing ("this is a link post") earlier this week
| and only now realize it wasn't a one off.
| javanissen wrote:
| Given that the author seems to have reposted it themselves, I'm
| not sure it's an issue
| cdwhite wrote:
| I think that's customary at LessWrong, more or less---if folks
| write something that's of interest to the community, they'll
| double-post, blog and forum. Likewise things get cross-posted
| to the EA forum and maybe other places.
| tenker wrote:
| [flagged]
| Timon3 wrote:
| And surely there's no way your impression is biased? Or that
| you have an agenda?
|
| It's easy to say something like this, but without any actual
| examples, complaints, studies or anything it just detracts from
| actual conversations.
| pengstrom wrote:
| Unfortunately, the current conservative/nationalistic government
| has been trying to get it shut down. They use the guide of "tough
| on crime" of course, but they have been opposing money for people
| of lesser means for a long, long time.
| zx8080 wrote:
| What do they spend taxpayers money for instead?
| geysersam wrote:
| Defence, police, tax incentives for driving and reduced tax
| on fossile fuels.
|
| Many other things of course. But these are some of the areas
| where the difference is largest compared to the opposition.
| froding wrote:
| Sure, this is true and I disagree with it. But an observer
| should note (and which was not mentioned in the article), that
| there has been scandal upon scandal of the funds being given
| out for these study circles ending up in Islamist or even
| foreign hands.
|
| Studieforbund are great, but they have to properly track where
| the money goes - check receipts, do random inspections to see
| how many people are truly attending, etc.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| I wish we had something like this in the US. We sorely need it.
|
| Today, in the US and much of the western world as a whole, we are
| missing something I have seen described as "the third place".
| This is defined as any social setting that isn't the "first
| place" (home), or the "second place" (work).
|
| Wikipedia introduces the "third place" with examples: "churches,
| cafes, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores, stoops and
| parks". I disagree with most, if not all of these as true
| examples of the third place.
|
| Churches have explicit missions; whether they be charity,
| evangelism, or even to vaguely unite a community: there is always
| a goal in mind, and an expectation to _work_ toward that goal. So
| despite their extracurricular position, these are the second
| place: work. I would include clubs and gyms for the same reason.
|
| Cafes and bars are businesses. Even if you can casually visit
| them, you are expected to buy something. The experience of cafes
| and bars may be very _close_ to a third place, but they are
| effectively taxed: without buying drinks, the business fails.
| That introduces a _deliberate purpose_ to the space that, in
| practice, recreates the same social dynamics present in churches,
| clubs, and gyms.
|
| Libraries allow you to choose your goals, but you are expected to
| do so quietly and alone. Engaging those around you in casual
| conversation is _rude_ , and even against the rules! Libraries
| also provide space for extracurricular groups, like clubs, but
| that interaction is _explicit_ : it doesn't start organically. So
| we end up _again_ with the same "second place" social dynamic!
|
| So what about public parks? Surely a public park can fill the
| void: after all, that's explicitly what they are there for! And
| yet, in my experience, this doesn't happen. People use parks for
| their _utility_ : to exercise, walk their dogs, or play with
| friends. They are effectively an extension of the "first place":
| home.
|
| I can't think of a single physical location in the Untied States
| where the average person can freely visit, and _expect_ to be
| talked to. Such an interaction is so unfamiliar, it is implicitly
| discouraged: an unspoken rule. Sure, there are those who are
| willing to break that rule, but when I see it play out, I see the
| average person react with discomfort and annoyance. After all,
| they were just minding their own business: such is the American
| dream.
|
| The third place is dead, not only in the physical (by not
| existing as a place), but also in the ethereal (by not existing
| in our social expectations). Even if we want it, we are missing
| the narrative: the story: the blueprint: detailing how and where
| it could exist in our lives. That alone is the very reason we so
| desperately need it.
| opportune wrote:
| I recommend a visit to Cuba if you can. Parks are used
| extensively as a third place there. So I think that this is
| cultural as much as it is anything to do with parks. Cuba and
| the US have a lot of differences, of course (maybe you could
| attribute this to the comparatively much poorer state of
| housing) but nothing is stopping us from doing this per se.
|
| You may also be surprised how central of a third place are some
| cafes in southern Europe: in rural Spanish, Greek, Italian
| villages they'll often have a contingent of pensioners regulars
| chatting throughout the day. Again, this could just as well
| happen in the US - even if you argue car culture or whatever,
| it could happen in NYC or SF, but doesn't really.
|
| I think actually, we are culturally averse to third places now.
| There used to be more in the US (saloons were huge before
| prohibition). I question the extent to which we "need" it given
| that we've gradually shifted towards not having them. Maybe
| it's because those needs are met elsewhere. You could argue
| things like the workplace (as reimagined by tech companies and
| startups) or Internet are a third place for example
| yobbo wrote:
| In regions with depopulation there are disused buildings,
| unoccupied school rooms, and even churches in some cases. This is
| _not_ a thing in big cities, and there are no facilities freely
| available to anyone.
|
| It is possible to get subsidised rooms/studios through "study
| circles" for music or theatre (for example), under certain
| conditions for accountability.
|
| "Folk high school" is equivalent to community college.
| vintermann wrote:
| > "Folk high school" is equivalent to community college.
|
| I thought a community college was just a college/university
| that aimed to serve the local community and its needs, rather
| than having terribly high research ambitions?
|
| If so, it's completely different from folk high schools (in
| Norway, at least). They have no grades and no exams, and they
| serve 18-19 year olds from _elsewhere_ than their local
| community. It 's very rare to go to your own community's folk
| high school. Unlike all other education levels in Norway, folk
| high schools are boarding schools by default.
|
| Also, because they struggle somewhat with popularity, they're
| quite focused on hobby or "useless" skills, from art to horse
| sports. There's even some esports offerings in recent years.
| They need to draw students in, and for most students with a
| traditional goal in mind such as becoming a nurse or an
| accountant, they would be a poor investment of a year, so they
| can't really offer very "practical" courses.
|
| Young people go there to live their dream career for a while,
| get some more time to figure out what they can actually do as a
| career, and "make friends for life", a phrase you'll find a lot
| in folk high school promotional material. It's pretty much code
| for "find a serious boyfriend/girlfriend". Rare for arenas
| where that's the goal, they're typically rather gender
| balanced, or even with women slightly overrepresented.
| phreack wrote:
| > This is not a thing in big cities, and there are no
| facilities freely available to anyone.
|
| Yeah, right after reading this I started thinking about how to
| start such a circle in my area, and realized it's not possible
| because a key factor is a free space young people can adopt and
| re-imagine. In a densely populated city this is immensely hard
| to happen spontaneously, any such space will most likely be
| quickly occupied by homeless people, which feels more urgent
| than education and exploration.
| graycat wrote:
| _Education_? Been there, done that, a lot of it, a bit too much,
| really. So, I 'll comment:
|
| The idea of the study groups getting the participants polished on
| the _social_ aspects of life sounds good.
|
| For STEM, let's see: First, here at Hacker News, what fraction of
| the readers got good at writing code in C/C++ before they had any
| formal classroom instruction from an established education
| system, high school, college, etc.? I anticipate, a big fraction.
|
| Lesson: In learning C/C++, and a lot of closely related topics,
| say, quick sort, maybe matrix inversion, the beginnings of using
| relational data base as "the key, the whole key, nothing but the
| key", some of the details of virtual memory as Zuck spouted out
| as he walked out of class in the movie _The Social Network_ ,
| commonly that learning has been done by people mostly on their
| own.
|
| Next, a college prof has to keep up and hopefully push ahead, but
| there's essentially no _formal education_ classroom instruction
| for doing that. So, the prof has to do that on his (her, here and
| below) own.
|
| Lesson: Self teaching is fundamental right to the top of the
| education system. Soooo, self teaching is not incidental,
| strange, etc.
|
| For graduate study in the STEM fields, been there, done that.
| Fact of life: The university, department, profs, etc. can provide
| a lot of guidance and direction, often crucial since otherwise a
| student might waste time wandering in poor directions, but,
| bluntly, the student needs lots of hours of self study outside of
| class.
|
| Lesson: Soooo, even in a program in formal education, a lot of
| self teaching is crucial.
|
| Broadly in US society, there is a lot of self learning: E.g., a
| good chef who has a terrific lasagna, pizza, Italian rum cake,
| coconut cream pie, ..., likely learned how to do that mostly on
| their own or, say, from an employer who learned it on their own,
| likely not from some formal classroom education. Same for lots of
| jobs -- auto repair, plumbing, roofing, brick laying, many
| aspects of farming, parenting, ....
|
| Lesson: Self teaching is crucial in our whole society, and a lot
| of people are good at it.
| dragoncrab wrote:
| Is there anything similar in other European countries as well?
| somewhereoutth wrote:
| In Portugal there are Cultural Associations, which have a
| certain legal standing with associated formalities. Sometimes
| they even have premises they run for meetings etc. They tend to
| be formed according to particular interests, if I understand
| correctly. Hopefully someone from Portugal can elaborate on
| this.
| 2000UltraDeluxe wrote:
| The other Nordic countries have similar movements. I assume
| there are others too.
| gostsamo wrote:
| There are the chitalishte institution in Bulgaria which are
| centers for education, culture and furthering national movement
| in the very beginning. Couldn't find a good source in english.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitalishte
| jks wrote:
| In Finland there are "kansanopisto" that are a little like the
| Swedish ones described in the article but with less resources.
| I spent my final year of upper secondary school at one of them
| (https://www.paivola.fi) which hosts a math enrichment
| programme, but that one is quite unique.
|
| That particular institute got started in the late 1800s to
| educate farmers with an ideology similar to the Swedish system
| of the article, but by the 1990s it had mostly language
| courses. (Didn't get into university? Come study Spanish for a
| gap year, we'll make a trip to Spain at the end.) Currently in
| addition to the math programme they seem to teach several
| subjects with a kind of unofficial arrangement with
| universities. (Didn't make it to law school/psychology/teacher
| school? Come study exactly that for a year to improve your
| chances in the next admissions round, with some credit probably
| accepted toward your eventual university degree.)
| vidarh wrote:
| Folkeuniversitetet ("people's university"; previously
| Friundervisningen - free education/free learning) and
| folkehoyskoler ("folk/people's high schools") in Norway.
|
| I got my first exposure in computing in part because my dad
| agreed to teach computers for
| Folkeuniversitetet/Friundervisningen in the early 80's, but he
| needed to borrow one to learn to use it first...
|
| In Norway it sprung out of students in the 1860's who wanted to
| make education more broadly available (Henrik Ibsen was one of
| the founding students, as was Bjornstjerne Bjorson, perhaps
| less known outside Norway but the first Norwegian Nobel
| laureate in literature)
| xpe wrote:
| What can we read to get a fair overview of Swedish culture with
| regards to intellectual curiousity, education, conformism (I've
| seen this claimed but have no firsthand experience), and so on?
|
| Here is one starting point: "Small Facts and Large Issues: The
| Anthropology of Contemporary Scandinavian Society" :
| https://www.jstor.org/stable/2155886 ... I haven't read it yet. I
| like the anthropological point of view though.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| https://www.jstor.org/stable/3791704
| xpe wrote:
| How is "Racism and Support of Free-Market Capitalism: A
| Cross-Cultural Analysis" relevant to my question? I didn't
| ask about economic systems in particular. Is there something
| in there about sociological perspectives?
| xpe wrote:
| One anecdote. One person I trust view most Swedes as much more
| open minded than most Americans.
| somewhereoutth wrote:
| Excellent article, and a very interesting look into how a society
| may accelerate its development.
|
| Perhaps maker spaces are born of a similar ethos, though of
| course very stem driven.
|
| Unfortunately it seems that as formal education has become more
| institutionalised and more necessary as a marker for
| employability, doing anything remotely 'bookish' in your free
| time has become almost definitively 'uncool'. A shame.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > doing anything remotely 'bookish' in your free time has
| become almost definitively 'uncool'
|
| This is a very serious problem and I can see this every day
| with my kids. They have so much peer pressure on them that they
| find it very hard to do those things that they would like to do
| because it makes them 'uncool'. The result is that they have a
| part of their life that they keep away from their school mates.
| Supporting them in their endeavors helps them but it isn't
| enough to fully compensate for the desire to belong and have
| approval from their peers.
| yobbo wrote:
| > Perhaps maker spaces are born of a similar ethos
|
| There are strains of ideas and phenomena here that are probably
| not decipherable to outsiders. Applying for subsidies for
| "study circles" would be considered as abuse of the system or
| even fraudulent in some circles. In other circles, receiving
| any subsidy from the government is considered justified and
| right by default.
|
| Its effect on economic development is probably negligible (but
| how would you determine that?). It can rather be viewed as one
| of many tolerated ways of receiving money in exchange for the
| effort of doing the paperwork.
|
| It's a phenomenon that looks different to different people.
| rhn_mk1 wrote:
| It sounds like you're comparing the situation outlined in the
| article to somewhere you're familiar with when you say
| 'bookish' is 'uncool'. Where is that?
| somewhereoutth wrote:
| Gen X Anglosphere
| embedded_hiker wrote:
| And long before Gen X.
| zdragnar wrote:
| A friend of mine from college said he was accused of "acting
| white" for trying to get good grades in school when he was
| younger. I forget if it was Detroit or Minneapolis, but
| either would be likely. Minnesota has (or at least had) the
| US's largest gap between racial achievement in education.
|
| More broadly speaking, even when I was growing up being a
| "nerd" (what the kids would say instead of bookish) was
| always uncool. It's practically a trope in American media
| since we had media as such. Smart, brainy kids are juxtaposed
| against the "cool" jocks and popular crowd.
| heywhatupboys wrote:
| > doing anything remotely 'bookish' in your free time has
| become almost definitively 'uncool'
|
| teaching kids work-life balance seems like a great idea
| bsder wrote:
| > Perhaps maker spaces are born of a similar ethos, though of
| course very stem driven.
|
| Huh? Most makerspaces are not at _all_ STEM driven.
|
| In the US, most makerspaces are driven by woodworking.
| Metalworking and 3D printing generally take up the next tier in
| a makerspace of usage. Electronics and STEM stuff is generally
| the bottom of utilization, sadly.
|
| It's simply really hard to come up with good electronics
| projects that don't also need a pretty solid software
| background nowadays. That's just really a step too far for most
| people.
|
| By contrast, there are lots of projects that a couple of hours
| in a woodshop makes something interesting and semi-useful.
| somewhereoutth wrote:
| Anytime you try to make a 3D thing (and many 2D things) you
| are doing STEM. I feel the distinction between 'blue collar'
| e.g. woodworking and 'white collar' technology, and indeed
| 'purple collar' art & design, to be unhelpful - unless of
| course to segregate out the 'bookish'!
| bsder wrote:
| A carpenter, woodworker, roofer, plumber, welder, etc.
| would be kind of surprised with your definition of STEM,
| but, okay.
|
| If that's your definition, you do you.
| tqi wrote:
| > A good educational system should have three purposes: it should
| provide all who want to learn with access to available resources
| at any time in their lives; empower all who want to share what
| they know to find those who want to learn it from them; and,
| finally, furnish all who want to present an issue to the public
| with the opportunity to make their challenge known.
|
| I wonder if this quote is still something we believe is correct.
| Implied here is that "learning" and "sharing what they know" are
| unqualified good. But I think there is lots of that on the
| internet these days... much of it bad. But then who gets to
| decide what is or isn't the right kind of learning in this model?
| bsder wrote:
| > Implied here is that "learning" and "sharing what they know"
| are unqualified good. But I think there is lots of that on the
| internet these days... much of it bad.
|
| There is a vast difference between "On the Internet" and "In
| person".
|
| "In person" means that your idea has to have enough critical
| mass in a local area to catch on. If your idea only appeals to
| 0.01% of people, you're just not going to come in contact with
| another like-minded individual in your local area. This
| _greatly_ limits the damage that fringe beliefs can do. On the
| other hand, if _you_ are the person with the minority belief or
| interest, you 're isolated.
|
| "On the Internet" there is no such geographic limiter. So, if
| _you_ are the one in the minority, you can find kindred
| spirits. Unfortunately, _very_ fringe people can find like
| minded individuals and congregate.
|
| It would be very nice if we could harness the positives of both
| while minimizing the negatives. I'm not sure that's possible,
| though.
| argiopetech wrote:
| Those "who want to learn it from them" must make the
| assessment. Any less is censorship of the teacher, which, in my
| mind, is an unqualified evil.
|
| This is not to say that the material learnt/shared is an
| unqualified good. The ability of each individual to freely
| exchange that knowledge and assess it in their context is.
| tqi wrote:
| > Any less is censorship of the teacher, which, in my mind,
| is an unqualified evil.
|
| I'm not sure if I agree. I understand the intent is that
| individuals should in turn be able reject those teachings in
| their context, but that feels disconnected from the reality
| of our society. Ultimately I think it comes down to whether
| you think policies should be made based on intent or
| outcomes. If, for example, WhatsApp knows that individuals
| "teaching" about the dangers posed by an ethnic minority, and
| that those teachings would result in genocide regardless of
| how much helper text / warning flags you place around the
| content, I think it would be a moral imperative for them to
| remove that content.
|
| Of course, who gets to make that decision and how you measure
| outcomes (what is worse, and for whom?) is a whole can of
| worms, so I definitely have reservations, but ultimately I
| believe that a) some limits are necessary, b) there can be
| genuine disagreement on where that line should be drawn and
| c) there is no such thing as an unqualified evil or good.
| low_tech_love wrote:
| But then how would you separate, for example, teaching from
| preaching?
| gameman144 wrote:
| I'd argue preaching _is_ (or rather, ought to be) teaching,
| so no need to separate them.
|
| Totally fine to restrict subjects that can be taught in
| schools though, including religion and the like.
| DistractionRect wrote:
| I think there's an implication of central curation that's done
| by the education system. That would be the difference from the
| internet. The question of who is qualified to run the system,
| is not easy answer. Consider academia and publishing to
| journals. On paper that's the embodiment of the quote. It's
| been corrupted by money, and perturbed by mandatory publishing.
| In order to maintain grants, publish X times a year, etc
| there's plenty of p hacking, unreproducible papers, and
| straight up fraudulent papers in circulation.
|
| As fas our belief in the quote, it's clear there exists a
| subset of the population that doesn't believe this quote to be
| correct. We're seeing a renaissance of anti-intellectualism,
| where people reject basic science; brag about not reading
| books; segregate themselves into their own echo chambers;
| instead of facts informing beliefs, beliefs inform "facts."
|
| A basic example is that diseases we've all but eradicated are
| seeing a resurgence thanks to trading vaccination for
| pox/covid/measles/etc parties.
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