[HN Gopher] Gut microbes could drive brain disorders
___________________________________________________________________
Gut microbes could drive brain disorders
Author : pella
Score : 92 points
Date : 2023-02-25 18:09 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| I had schizophrenia and still have, but it's now not as prevalent
| after years of eating mostly vegetable, raw, and very ripe,
| fermented sometimes (like when peppers, onions, garlic for
| example are getting soft, people usually call them "rotten", but
| I prefer them like this actually, there can even be some bacteria
| formation on it, it doesn't matter). That with regular
| walking/running outdoor helped me so much. A typical daily meal:
| Red/orange peppers, onions of all kind, spinach, mushrooms,
| tomatoes in a bucket, rince, add lemoon juice on top, and eat
| slowly, masticating properly, doing nothing else, fruits as well
| before or after clementines, grapes, figs, persimmons, dates,
| walnuts, amonds (depending on the season). (I'm not vegan but I
| rarely eat other things as I'm full with this, I started this
| because it was a cheap way to eat)
| oblib wrote:
| I read not long ago about a connection between gut bugs and
| schizophrenia and how probiotics may help with that too. Looks
| to me like your diet may be doing the same thing.
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014976342...
| jaquer_1 wrote:
| [dead]
| samstave wrote:
| Forgive the following joke, however, I feel you may like it:
|
| Spoken dead-pan style in Steven Wright's voice:
|
| -
|
| _" I used to have schizophrenia, but they still have it"_
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| Well I'm still crazy, but at least I'm more aware of it, and
| can control and accept it (no more OCDs though)
| Animatronio wrote:
| Steven Wright the stand-up comedian or Steven Wright the
| serial killer?
| heyoni wrote:
| Do you know how many calories you're getting with this?
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| I don't measure anyhing to be honest, I stop eating when I'm
| full, and only 1 or 2 meal a day
|
| It gives me enough energy to go get this food with my bike,
| 15km away at markets, also helping merchants, I do this twice
| per week. The rest of the time I work remotely for me real
| employer
|
| The amount of calories is not only relevant, the way to
| digest it efficiently as well
| poisonarena wrote:
| how do you know it is from eating vegetables and not just
| dialed down with time or other factors?
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| The psychiatrists I saw years ago said it will only get worse
| with time, and he gave me an antipsychotics treatment, I
| tried 4 months then stopped because my brain was so
| disconnected, I felt like a vegetable, I couldn't even write
| or talk properly. Antidepressant or lighter drugs didn't have
| much effect. So I tried to cure myself with other ways (a bit
| coincidentally with food)
| tudorw wrote:
| or pharmanutrition as it's been rebranded :)
| samstave wrote:
| I have a suggestion for a test for you ;
|
| A Yogi master I once knew said to not eat onions (nightshades)
| as they interfere with your psychic aura or something.
|
| Since you seem to have a handle on your diet, may I request you
| do an cleanse of sorts and not eat onions for ~1 month and
| report if you feel any differences?
| [deleted]
| qbrass wrote:
| Onions and garlic are allium. Nightshades are tomatoes,
| potatoes, eggplant, and peppers.
| DoktorDelta wrote:
| I wonder if "interfering with your aura" is just one
| interpretation of the inflammation and digestive issues that
| nightshades can cause.
|
| If I was living before medicine was a common practice I'd
| probably attribute diarrhea and cramps to "psychic auras" as
| well.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Quackery around "nightshades" should sound the same to you
| as quackery around "psychic auras" - they are in the same
| ballpark.
| diogenescynic wrote:
| Artificial food coloring definitely messes kids up. I haven't
| seen it explained precisely but it definitely seems to mess up
| something physiologically.
| oifjsidjf wrote:
| Why is this downvoted? One can find cases where this was cleary
| the case on the internet. I remember one case where just the
| artificial coloring in some medicine pill was the issue.
| bolangi wrote:
| So maybe all those natural healers with their potions and powders
| and diet recommendations, ridiculed in unconditional advocacy of
| western medicine, could help in ways unrecognized till now.
| throwaway482940 wrote:
| About five years ago, after experimenting with some diet changes,
| I started having some pretty terrible digestive issues, like
| extremely bloating and indigestion. The issues would fluctuate,
| sometimes being much worse than others. Along with it came
| personality changes, like apathy, and they would also fluctuate
| along with the digestive issues. It's actually pretty scary how
| much it affected my brain. There are times when the apathy is so
| extreme I feel like a psychopath, and that comes from someone
| that once upon a time was vegan due to ethical reasons, so I am
| (or was) an empathic person. It really is mindblowing. The
| thoughts I have had and sometimes have would put me in a
| psychiatric hospital, thoughts I would have never imagined I
| would have.
| kanyethegreat wrote:
| did you track causation? like what diet changes led to the
| behavioral changes?
| throwaway482940 wrote:
| It's hard to say. The diet was vegan, but it was a poorly
| implemented vegan diet. I was basically eating a lot of fruit
| and legumes, far too much fruit I should say. Once I started
| having the digestive issues, I started reading about it on
| the Internet, and I came across some sites talking about
| copper overload, how vegan diets inevitably suffer from an
| inbalance between zinc and copper, but I'm not sure if it's
| pseudoscience or not. I do have low ceruloplasmin, which is
| the molecule that carries copper around the blood, so that is
| at least interesting, but yeah, could be coincidence. In any
| case, I haven't managed to fix it unfortunately, even after
| switching to an ordinary diet.
| zargon wrote:
| Your microbiome takes time to adapt to what you're eating
| and if you drastically increased fiber suddenly, it was
| likely not prepared for it. It could also have had a weak
| ability to deal with certain types of fiber. Often it's
| oligosaccharides (beans). The FODMAP process helps you
| figure out which fiber your gut may be sensitive to and
| then you can start low and gradually increase it over time.
| Fauntleroy wrote:
| Sorry if I'm reading into this too much, but did the symptoms
| you described above ultimately lead to you abandoning veganism?
| Also, what were the dietary changes that caused those symptoms?
| throwaway482940 wrote:
| Yeah, I ended up abandoning veganism, because I no longer
| felt (and feel) the empathy that I did back in the day (if
| there's much left). Being able to experience the world
| through the lenses of someone with low empathy makes you a
| little sympathetic (heh) to those that are born like that.
| Basically my decisions are purely rational as of today. I'm
| lucky to not be impulsive at all; if I were, I would have
| fewer friends than I do.
|
| I briefly answered the dietary changes in another comment.
| happylion0801 wrote:
| Exactly have the same experience as you. After I got diagnosed
| with IBS, I started having pretty huge personality changes
| lasting to this day.
|
| No idea the path to recovery is
| throwaway482940 wrote:
| Yeah, it's pretty complicated. I have gotten blood, stool,
| and urine tests and all have come out fine. Food that
| previously would never cause any issues cause massive
| problems nowadays. Did your issues come from any dietary
| changes? How did they appear?
| shagie wrote:
| Serotonergic Mechanisms Regulating the GI Tract: Experimental
| Evidence and Therapeutic Relevance (2017) -
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5526216/
|
| > Serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine; 5-HT) is best known as a
| neurotransmitter critical for central nervous system (CNS)
| development and function. 95% of the body's serotonin, however,
| is produced in the intestine where it has been increasingly
| recognized for its hormonal, autocrine, paracrine, and endocrine
| actions.
|
| --
|
| Here's this chemical that we use to run our brain... where is it
| produced? Not in the brain, but rather in the gut.
| hanniabu wrote:
| > 5-hydroxytryptamine; 5-HT
|
| 5-HTP*
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| 5-HT is 5-hydroxytryptamine aka serotonin.
|
| 5-HTP is 5-Hydroxytryptophan, a precursor to 5-HT.
| hanniabu wrote:
| You're right, tried to delete after I realized I misread
| but HN wouldn't let me
| Ezku wrote:
| Peripheral and central serotonergic systems are both relevant:
|
| > Because 5-HT cannot cross the blood-brain barrier, the
| peripheral 5-HT system is functionally separate from the
| central 5-HT system. -- Diabetes Metab J. 2016
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27126880/
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > Here's this chemical that we use to run our brain... where is
| it produced? Not in the brain, but rather in the gut.
|
| No, it's produced in the brain, too.
|
| Serotonin plays multiple functions in the body. It is also
| produced locally in the brain. It plays a significant role in
| the circulatory system as well.
|
| Serotonin in your stomach does not migrate to the brain. You
| cannot eat serotonin and have it end up in your brain. You can
| consume serotonin precursors, which are transported to the
| brain and used to produce serotonin locally.
|
| The body is very segmented, especially the central nervous
| system. The body can't be interpreted as a chemical soup where
| all the chemicals are mingling with all the organs at the same
| levels.
| hanniabu wrote:
| That said, lack of serotonin in the gut also created thiamine
| deficiencies which leads to decreased serotonin uptake.
| hanniabu wrote:
| From what I read, the reasons why it's beneficial is that it
| improved gut motility and the intestinal mucosal lining, which
| subsequently improves hormonal, autocrine, paracrine, and
| endocrine actions.
| rajup wrote:
| How does one know one has a healthy gut? Is it possible to have
| the wrong gut micro biome but not have any gastrointestinal
| symptoms?
| superpope99 wrote:
| There are companies who will sequence your gut microbiome and
| give you actionable insights - full disclosure I work for one
| https://joinzoe.com/
| kanyethegreat wrote:
| How valid are the actionable insights? Is there one set ideal
| each person should match, or is it individualistic?
| mliker wrote:
| Dr. Sara Gottfried talks about a slate of tests in her
| recent podcast episode with Andrew Huberman:
| https://hubermanlab.com/dr-sara-gottfried-how-to-optimize-
| fe...
|
| While the podcast is focused on female health, the advice
| applies to men as well.
| Madmallard wrote:
| Yeah there isn't randomized controlled trials or systematic
| review on any of this stuff so your company is glorified
| snake oil and you really should be ashamed. Get the evidence
| first before trying to take people's money (AND data!).
| ChildOfChaos wrote:
| What? Zoe is co-founded by Tim Spector, who is very well
| respected epidemiologist, Zoe did a lot of work in the UK
| on Covid tracking and Tim was awarded an OBE for his work,
| are you aware of that or just painting it with the same
| brush as all these snake oil startups?
| edgyquant wrote:
| What does Covid tracking have to epidemiology have to do
| with the gut biome?
| DanHulton wrote:
| Legit question: What does that have to do with anything?
|
| More specifically: Why does being an epidemiologist
| qualify you to have an opinion on gut microbiomes?
|
| Even more specifically: DO you have randomized,
| controlled trials to point to? Otherwise, this is just an
| argument from authority, and one who's experience is not
| clear is relevant.
| hanniabu wrote:
| You have regular bowel movements, nicely formed stool, don't
| have any bloating/burping/gas, don't feel sluggish after you
| eat, and you have enough energy and feel healthy
| hanniabu wrote:
| Anybody that's dealt with chronic intestinal issues like sibo
| could have told you this. It's nice to see the research starting
| to catch up. Hopefully less patients will be gaslighted by
| doctors in the coming years.
| jstx1 wrote:
| All of this is super interesting but it's been discussed for a
| while and I'm still waiting for a "do $x, it will improve
| condition $y through mechanism $z" kind of prescription and I
| don't think that's coming any time soon.
| precompute wrote:
| * * *
| Wonnk13 wrote:
| I've dealt with colon cancer in 2016 and again now in the
| present. I don't what the hell is driving it, but the gut biome
| is fascinating. It's definitely made me look at my diet and food
| variety much more seriously. I've started taking probiotics,
| drinking kombucha from time to time and adopting a more whole
| food / plant based diet. Does it have an affect? who the heck
| knows.
| sosilkj wrote:
| (Disclaimer upfront: I am not a doctor or medical
| professional.)
|
| Kombucha often contains some alcohol. I'd suggest being
| cautious about alcohol consumption - frankly, eliminating it
| altogether from your diet would be my personal suggestion;
| there is evidence of increased risk of colon cancer from
| alcohol.
|
| Just grabbing the first thing I found: "Moderate to heavy
| alcohol consumption is associated with 1.2- to 1.5-fold
| increased risks of cancers of the colon and rectum compared
| with no alcohol consumption". From here:
| https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/a...
|
| They give several references there to back up that statement,
| those could be worth reading.
|
| Best wishes for your recovery and health and longterm success.
|
| Edit: wow, i'm getting downvoted? if i'm saying something
| inaccurate or inappropriate here, i'd be grateful for some
| specific feedback. thanks.
| prepend wrote:
| Kombucha has about 0.5% alcohol by volume [0] (a ripe banana
| has 0.4%) so it's not really a reasonable risk per the
| studies you link to. I think this is a foolish interpretation
| and even as a non medical doctor it's easy to look at the
| alcohol content and think critically.
|
| Kombucha has 1/10 the alcohol of a beer. So you would need to
| drink 40 12oz kombuchas in an hour to be intoxicated
| (moderate alcohol use). That's almost 4 gallons and really
| not practical a single time, much less daily like what
| contributes to colon cancer risk.
|
| I suspect you're being downvoted because your comment is low
| value, wrong, and doesn't need to be seen. For specific
| feedback, I think you can think critically about whether the
| level of alcohol applies to the advice you give.
|
| It's the dose that makes toxicity. Working to eliminate
| completely things that don't matter reflect a wrong
| understanding of nature.
|
| [0] https://www.no1living.com/blogs/blog/is-kombucha-
| alcoholic
| echelon wrote:
| Alcohol is a high energy, reactive species. Both it and its
| downstream metabolic products cause a host of DNA
| degradation: cross-linking, etc. Accumulation of this class
| of damage causes aging, cancer, dysfunction, and other
| cellular disease states.
|
| Every nutritive food we intake, including the gaseous and
| reactive molecular oxygen, is reactive and damaging. Some
| are worse than others, but we can control what we consume.
|
| In time, our view of many of the things we do - breathing
| dirty air, consuming too much alcohol, maintaining an
| unhealthy gut microbiomes, etc., will inform new habits.
|
| We don't know what the lower bound of safe alcohol
| consumption is. Modest consumption probably increases
| risks, but it may be negligible against the background
| noise of everything else we bump into. The effects will
| also sum with any other bad habits an individual may have.
| Population studies are messy, but we do know the
| biochemistry.
|
| I only had an undergraduate biochem + general chemistry
| degree, so I'm not "credentialed" in this space. I continue
| to read the literature regularly, though, because it
| interests me deeply. I do worry about alcohol consumption's
| effects on my health, even though I continue to drink
| kombucha and have a cocktail every now and again. It still
| wears on me.
|
| We're all killing ourselves slowly through eating,
| breathing, and metabolizing. You can worry about it, you
| can disregard it, you can make small changes, etc. We're
| all dying, though.
| porphyra wrote:
| Isn't kombucha way less than "moderate to heavy alcohol
| consumption"? Besides, small amounts of alcohol form
| naturally from stuff fermenting in your gut. To be honest, I
| would be more concerned about my tooth enamel degrading from
| heavy kombucha consumption (as it is very acidic) rather than
| the alcohol content.
| sosilkj wrote:
| It seems like the question you're posing is: in the context
| of colon cancer risk, if one's alcohol consumption isn't
| enough to reach the category of "moderate", does that mean
| the increased risk is zero (or insignificant)? I don't know
| the answer to that. That's something that could perhaps be
| determined by reviewing the literature.
|
| Edit: Not that anyone cares, but I guess I'll say a bit
| more: I don't know what brand of kombucha OP drinks, or how
| much of it, and how many grams of alcohol that sums up to,
| and what the current body of research says (or doesn't)
| regarding the precise amount of risk incurred or not from
| that amount of alcohol ... but the fact is, there's
| extensive research on the association between alcohol and
| cancer and I stand by the suggestions that someone dealing
| with recurrent colon cancer should be cautious about
| alcohol consumption, and that it could be worth reviewing
| existing research on the matter.
| prepend wrote:
| It's not reasonable to conclude that because moderate
| alcohol causes an effect that less than that causes a
| diminished effect.
|
| You need evidence, or at least some logical basis, to
| make a claim or believe such a thing.
|
| You can review the literature to find something.
| Typically is a paper is publishing about moderate levels
| causing an effect they will cite or be cited by other
| studies showing effects from other levels.
|
| There are many things in nature that are harmless at some
| level and become harmful at another level. And there's no
| negative effect whatsoever from the appropriate level.
| slothtrop wrote:
| Moderate consumption was previously defined as 1-2 drinks per
| day for men or 7 a week, which does not seem moderate at all.
| This guideline has recently been changed in some countries to
| 1-2 a week.
|
| a 1.5 fold increase of risk is not necessarily significant if
| the baseline risk is low, but notwithstanding, I'm not
| convinced that _actually_ moderate consumption of alcohol
| poses much of a risk.
| felixbraun wrote:
| Doing the exact opposite might help -- probiotics feed harmful
| bacteria as well and a different strategy would be to simply
| try to keep your microbiome as basic and unintrusive as
| possible, allowing the gut to calm and heal.
|
| It's easier said than done; recommend looking into natural
| antibiotics (eg cooked white button mushrooms), indigestible
| fibre to ensure regular movements, which more than anything
| lowers endotoxin load (raw carrot salad), carbs from sugars
| instead of starch, which get absorbed more quickly and won't be
| very "prebiotic" (eg ripe oranges, honey) and nutrient dense
| foods to meet metrics (organ meats and cheeses).
| zargon wrote:
| Probiotics do not feed bacteria, they _are_ bacteria. SCFAs,
| butyrate, etc. are critical components for overall health,
| and especially in colon health and the normal functioning of
| apoptosis and other mechanisms. Prebiotic plant fiber feeds
| the healthy bacteria which produce those. Eating WFPB helps
| the healthy bacteria thrive and starve out the bad ones.
| Trying to intentionally repress the entire microbiome is a
| recipe for creating an opening for unhealthy bacteria to take
| over, while also depriving the body of healthy microbiome
| byproducts.
| felixbraun wrote:
| I doubt that it's possible to target "healthy bacteria"
| with diet prebiotic plant fiber (probiotics are bacteria
| and won't "feed", you're right) -- it's random,
| unfortunately.
|
| Low endotoxin load > health effects of butyrate etc, if you
| have serious issues like IBS or crohns
| slothtrop wrote:
| Outcomes are generally favorable with high fiber
| consumption, and unfavorable with low fiber consumption
| (or high sugar).
| lhfgwv wrote:
| _Nature_ pushing _Lactobacillus reuteri_ again. We get it, it is
| big business.
| gavinray wrote:
| That humans are by and large a host for the bacteria in our gut
| and elsewhere -- and the degree to which these (happy or unhappy)
| tenants can impact our behavior -- is something I constantly
| struggle to find controversial.
|
| Look at the mountain of studies on T. Gondii alone, and then tell
| me with a straight face the several dozen odd other strains
| present in our gut microbiome under normal working conditions
| don't exert any similar sort of effect.
|
| "Happy bacteria, happy host" is my motto, I try to do things
| within reason to appease our tiny bacterial overloads.
|
| (Unless you get a bad bacteria, then condolences to you)
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-02-25 23:01 UTC)