[HN Gopher] TikTok-owner ByteDance planning to layoff thousands ...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       TikTok-owner ByteDance planning to layoff thousands in coming
       months
        
       Author : mfiguiere
       Score  : 170 points
       Date   : 2023-02-23 15:55 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.firstpost.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.firstpost.com)
        
       | mparnisari wrote:
       | "the layoffs is taking place"
       | 
       | i'm no English expert, but I can't take seriously an article with
       | grammar errors :/
        
         | eCa wrote:
         | > i'm
         | 
         | The issue with critizising someones grammer are that it always
         | slips in an error or two.
        
           | ChicagoBoy11 wrote:
           | I see what you did there. Well played.
        
           | Taywee wrote:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law
           | 
           | > Muphry's law is an adage that states: "If you write
           | anything criticizing editing or proofreading, there will be a
           | fault of some kind in what you have written."[1] The name is
           | a deliberate misspelling of "Murphy's law".
        
           | onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
           | I will never understand why some people are so quick to
           | dismiss everything because they spot a grammar mistake.
           | 
           | Nothing is perfect. Get over it.
        
             | _gabe_ wrote:
             | I typically don't mind if there's small grammatical errors
             | every few pages. But if the sentence structure is
             | consistently confusing, and there are several glaring
             | mistakes, it usually signals to me that the author didn't
             | care enough to proofread/edit their own writing. If the
             | author doesn't care why should I?
        
             | infamouscow wrote:
             | Stupidity.* It takes far less energy to dismiss something
             | for a cosmetic, surface level error, than to engage in the
             | merits of the discussion.
             | 
             | *: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc
        
             | skeeter2020 wrote:
             | The human mind is engineered to be lazy though; we're hard-
             | wired to look for short cuts and proof reading === quality
             | isn't a terrible one. Why do you think we still have
             | resumes, or equate a university degree with ability to
             | program computers?
        
               | onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
               | > Why do you think we still have resumes
               | 
               | As opposed to what? People just showing up to interviews
               | unannounced?
               | 
               | > or equate a university degree with ability to program
               | computers?
               | 
               | Most of the really successful tech companies are doing
               | this to a small degree. You're at a pretty big advantage
               | if you try to get an early internship at FAANG if you
               | went to Harvard or Stanford or whatnot - and you probably
               | should be (and this is coming from someone who believes
               | strongly those universities are mostly a waste).
               | 
               | The unis already did the hard work of sifting through
               | students to find ones who are willing to work 100x more
               | than necessary just to get into a slightly better school.
               | If you're FAANG, that's sort of who you want to hire for
               | a tech internship, and eventually take advantage of with
               | an underpaying salary for namebrand recognition upon
               | graduation.
        
           | kerpotgh wrote:
           | [dead]
        
         | vyskocilm wrote:
         | All your layoffs are belong to us.
        
         | emodendroket wrote:
         | A single editing mistake makes the whole article beneath
         | notice?
        
         | CydeWeys wrote:
         | It's an Indian newspaper. Indian English is just about as
         | different from American English as it's possible to get.
        
           | scottyah wrote:
           | How does it compare to Scottish English or Jamaican Patois?
           | Those seem like a different language to me
        
             | optimalsolver wrote:
             | If you asked a Jamaican to pass you the "beer can", they
             | might hand you pork rashes. :-D
        
           | chimeracoder wrote:
           | > Indian English is just about as different from American
           | English as it's possible to get.
           | 
           | Hardly. Indian English is not even very different from some
           | dialects of British English (just not the one British dialect
           | that most non-Brits are used to). Even many of the features
           | that people commonly associate with Indian English are
           | actually taken from British English _and still present_ in
           | present-day British dialects (again, just not the one that
           | most non-Brits are familiar with).
           | 
           | There are other dialects of English that are _far_ more
           | different from Standard American English, to the point where
           | an American speaker will have trouble understanding them
           | altogether, as opposed to being able to understand the
           | meaning correctly albeit with noticeable distinctions.
           | 
           | But you're right that there's a good chance that this is a
           | dialect difference.
        
             | CydeWeys wrote:
             | Indian English has lots of loanwords from Indian languages
             | in it. That's the biggest difference I'm referring to. Try
             | reading any Indian finance news without knowing what lakh,
             | crore, and lakh crore mean, for example.
        
           | dahfizz wrote:
           | That's interesting. Are they taught in Indian primary school
           | that "the layoffs is" is correct?
        
             | cscurmudgeon wrote:
             | No. Even in Indian English, this is not correct.
        
         | chimeracoder wrote:
         | > "the layoffs is taking place"
         | 
         | > i'm no English expert, but I can't take seriously an article
         | with grammar errors :/
         | 
         | It's arguably a regional/dialect distinction. Here "layoffs" is
         | being treated as a collective noun, similar to how people say
         | "the data _is_ " instead of "the data _are_ ". Notice how
         | people usually say "layoffs" when referring to the entire
         | round.
         | 
         | English has less dialectal variation than most languages, so
         | English speakers (particularly educated British or American
         | speakers) aren't used to seeing it, but collectivization of
         | nouns is one of the more common ones to spot. If you pay
         | attention, you'll start seeing other examples here and there.
        
           | moosedev wrote:
           | Without commenting on the correctness of the English in the
           | article, which I didn't finish reading: when I moved to the
           | US as a Brit, I was amused by many commercials' use of "a
           | savings" to describe the effect of a sale or discount (e.g.
           | "a 20% Savings!")
           | 
           | In this case, the collective noun "savings" is used with the
           | singular article "a". This one shows up in both spoken and
           | written American English.
           | 
           | Obviously, I can point intellectually to how and why it's
           | correct, but it still sounds somehow weird and a bit folksy
           | to this immigrant :)
        
           | glibby wrote:
           | I believe the rule of using "are" when following a noun that
           | ends with "s" still applies though. eg. "the vertices are"
           | but "the collective is".
           | 
           | I can't think of a collective noun that ends in S that I
           | would follow with "is".
        
             | chimeracoder wrote:
             | > I believe the rule of using "are" when following a noun
             | that ends with "s" still applies though
             | 
             | Rules are dialect-dependent, though (or a better way to
             | frame it: "rules" are observations about clusters which are
             | used to _define_ a dialect).
             | 
             | > I can't think of a collective noun that ends in S that I
             | would follow with "is".
             | 
             | Sure, in the forms of American and British English that
             | most HN readers are used to, there may not be any. That
             | isn't universal, though.
             | 
             | There's a related phenomenon which may be more familiar to
             | you: some English speakers will use a possessive form even
             | when no possessive is being conveyed semantically, eg: "I'm
             | going to Burger King's", or "Wal-Mart's is a good store".
             | This particular one is fairly well-documented.
        
               | twelve40 wrote:
               | > "I'm going to Burger King's"
               | 
               | pretty sure this is also incorrect and something to be
               | avoided in print, no?
               | 
               | "data" vs "datum" is pretty obscure. While an outfit like
               | the New York Times may know the difference, I doubt that
               | most people even know that "data" is always plural, since
               | its forms are not even coming from English.
        
               | dahfizz wrote:
               | > some English speakers will use a possessive form even
               | when no possessive is being conveyed semantically, eg:
               | "I'm going to Burger King's", or "Wal-Mart's is a good
               | store".
               | 
               | I might type "walmart's a good store" in an informal
               | setting (not as a possessive, but as a contraction for
               | "walmart is"), but no American / British newspaper editor
               | would let that through. Its against the rules of english
               | grammar.
               | 
               | I'm curious whether kids in Indian primary school are
               | taught that "the layoffs is" is correct grammar, or
               | whether its just a common mistake (like walmart's).
        
           | metalliqaz wrote:
           | "in hospital"
        
         | tdiggity wrote:
         | it is very human.
        
       | Mc91 wrote:
       | I always see them hiring Android programmers on Linkedin,
       | including right now
       | 
       | https://careers.tiktok.com/position?keywords=android&categor...
       | 
       | Wonder if Android people will be laid off.
        
         | unglaublich wrote:
         | Big companies always fish for talent, even when laying off
         | people. The bar to get accepted is just a LOT higher.
        
         | oldstrangers wrote:
         | Makes sense considering Android makes up 71.74% of the mobile
         | market. Especially emerging markets, which is right up their
         | wheelhouse.
        
           | nso wrote:
           | Here in Mexico I just today made note of a phone service
           | provider offering unlimited use of TikTok with their basic
           | offering.
           | 
           | Personally I have never been anything but annoyed by the
           | whole concept of the short videos, but my 5 year old daughter
           | likes it. But then again I also get irrationally angry at
           | programming tutorials in video form as opposed to text, so
           | maybe I just don't "get it".
        
             | linuxftw wrote:
             | > but my 5 year old daughter likes it.
             | 
             | The tech is made to be addictive. You shouldn't let
             | children use such a thing IMO.
        
             | blululu wrote:
             | Tutorial videos are demonstrably worse at education, but
             | they are just much, much easier to produce than a well
             | written step by step blog post.
        
             | arberx wrote:
             | Its because they have no net neutrality.
        
             | ollien wrote:
             | Those short form programming videos perpetuate the parts of
             | this industry I really dislike, particularly the "look you
             | install the latest dependency and things go :rocketship:
             | :rocketship:". They never convey much nuance and are just
             | frankly uninteresting, unless you want to just have passing
             | knowledge of things existing.
        
         | me551ah wrote:
         | If they are still trying to hire for Android, then it's
         | unlikely that they would.
        
           | toyg wrote:
           | Sadly that's not how mass-layoffs work. It would make too
           | much sense.
           | 
           | Chances are those openings are just bait, permanently there
           | regardless of whether they actually need people.
        
             | htrp wrote:
             | > Chances are those openings are just bait, permanently
             | there regardless of whether they actually need people.
             | 
             | 100%.... most firms will have permanent reqs open just to
             | see if there are outstanding candidates available.
        
         | ravenstine wrote:
         | Everyone is "hiring" all the time. Even zombie companies like
         | Sears post developer jobs on LinkedIn.
        
         | onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
         | At one point - TikTok was rumored to be worth $400B.
         | 
         | That's about 40% of GOOG - which prints $60B per year. TikTok
         | makes nothing.
         | 
         | It's _only_ growing revenues at 53%, and they 're massively
         | decelerating.
         | 
         | It's going to be hard to IPO for anything near that without
         | ZIRP when they don't have profits and their growth rates are
         | declining...
         | 
         | Easiest way to make the numbers look better for IPO is fire
         | half the employees and make the other half work 3x as much.
        
           | shuckles wrote:
           | ByteDance almost certainly does many tens of billions of
           | revenue a year.
        
             | woobar wrote:
             | Prints money means profits.
             | 
             | Alphabets revenue in 2022 was $280B, with ~$60B profits.
             | 
             | ByteDance info is harder to find, but in 2021 it was ~$60B
             | revenue, with $7B loss. [1]
             | 
             | https://musically.com/2022/10/07/bytedance-2021-financials/
        
         | Aromasin wrote:
         | Based on data from other "tech layoffs", very few if any core
         | engineers will go. It'll be sales, recruitment, and an
         | assortment of engineering-adjacent positions like solutions,
         | industrial design, data analytics, and product.
         | 
         | I quite like this article from interviewing.io on the make-up
         | of most layoffs by position based in LinkedIn data:
         | https://interviewing.io/blog/2022-layoffs-engineers-vs-other...
         | 
         | If you look at pure software engineering, it's about 5%. When
         | we say "tech layoffs" we default to thinking "technical
         | people", but that's not really the case.
        
           | baumy wrote:
           | This is extremely interesting data, and not what I would have
           | expected. I'm aware HR and recruiting folks are having much
           | much harder times than engineers in finding new positions,
           | but assumed engineers had still been hit harder than that
           | link shows.
           | 
           | For companies outside the big techs that are still wildly
           | profitable and sitting on mountains of cash, laying off
           | people is largely about refocusing on actual profitable
           | activity. Keeping engineers around makes sense for them.
           | 
           | For companies that are on the cusp of profitability, or still
           | actively burning through money, layoffs seem to be more about
           | reducing burn, which means you're more likely to lay off
           | highly paid engineers.
           | 
           | Still, 5% seems low. How do you square this with the
           | observation that every open SDE role at a company that pays
           | at least somewhat decently seems to have hundreds of
           | applications? If so few SDEs were really laid off, I wouldn't
           | expect the SDE hiring market to have turned as drastically as
           | it did since last summer / fall.
        
             | bobthepanda wrote:
             | 5% is still pretty substantial, and the hiring market has
             | not expanded to keep pace in a relatively short time.
             | 
             | Also, tech does have a lot of people on visa compared to
             | other industries, who need to find a job within 60 days of
             | termination or leave the country.
        
             | wolpoli wrote:
             | > I'm aware HR and recruiting folks are having much much
             | harder times than engineers in finding new positions
             | 
             | Wouldn't HR and recruiting folks be able to look for work
             | with companies the broader economy?
        
             | 908B64B197 wrote:
             | > I'm aware HR and recruiting folks are having much much
             | harder times than engineers in finding new positions, but
             | assumed engineers had still been hit harder than that link
             | shows.
             | 
             | Hardest hit positions are "tech adjacent".
             | 
             | > For companies that are on the cusp of profitability, or
             | still actively burning through money, layoffs seem to be
             | more about reducing burn, which means you're more likely to
             | lay off highly paid engineers.
             | 
             | Twitter was an example of that, but it was massively
             | overblown by the media due to the company profile (and the
             | identity of the buyer!).
             | 
             | Companies trimming senior talent are also slowing down the
             | pace at which they can ship new features and products.
             | That's ok short term, but longer terms, those that will be
             | able to secure funding to keep their engineering will get
             | ahead.
             | 
             | > How do you square this with the observation that every
             | open SDE role at a company that pays at least somewhat
             | decently seems to have hundreds of applications? If so few
             | SDEs were really laid off, I wouldn't expect the SDE hiring
             | market to have turned as drastically as it did since last
             | summer / fall.
             | 
             | How many serious applications?
        
             | philsnow wrote:
             | > For companies that are on the cusp of profitability, or
             | still actively burning through money, layoffs seem to be
             | more about reducing burn, which means you're more likely to
             | lay off highly paid engineers.
             | 
             | Bothering to do a layoff only makes sense if management
             | wants to see the company survive. So, assuming that the
             | only outcomes being targeted are the ones in which the
             | company is still alive, consider the cost of replacing the
             | employee later: at least right now, engineers are more
             | expensive to hire than most other roles[0], so it could
             | cost less overall to lay off HR/recruiting with the
             | expectation that you'll backfill those roles in 9-18
             | months.
             | 
             | [0] for various reasons; to hire for any given role, you
             | have to source, engage/recruit, interview (which takes up
             | the time of the people on the team they'll join), somehow
             | pick one or more of the candidates, make offers, and then
             | onboard them. These costs are largely the same for any
             | role, _except_ that interviewing engineers costs
             | engineering time (and it 's harder to get enough quality
             | candidates in the top of the funnel for engineers than
             | other roles, so you have to spend more HR/recruiter time
             | there).
        
             | ok_dad wrote:
             | > assumed engineers had still been hit harder than that
             | link shows
             | 
             | That's what they want you to assume, that way us engineers
             | feel pressure to fall in line. Welcome to the
             | disinformation era.
        
           | VirusNewbie wrote:
           | That data doesn't have meta, google or amazon though???
        
           | nblgbg wrote:
           | This blog is old. Not sure when it was written and with more
           | layoffs this year, it may not be true !
        
           | jtsnow wrote:
           | Interesting data! And very different from the anecdotes
           | presented in another top HN discussion today, detailing
           | fierce competition with software engineer job postings
           | receiving 100x the number of applicants compared to just a
           | few months ago.
           | 
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34913015
        
           | twalla wrote:
           | > When we say "tech layoffs" we default to thinking
           | "technical people", but that's not really the case.
           | 
           | It sounds a little callous but the way I make the distinction
           | is working _in_ tech vs working _on_ tech.
        
           | kccqzy wrote:
           | I work in Big Tech. In the recent layoff, no software
           | engineer was laid off within my org. But several program
           | managers were laid off. I don't necessarily agree with that
           | decision; they do the dirty work of pushing things forward,
           | like doing cross-functional communication, thinking about
           | timelines and milestones, organizing meetings and sometimes
           | attending meetings on behalf of actual engineers. Without
           | them, work is slower, more chaotic, and it is now impossible
           | to ask a program manager to attend a meeting on your behalf.
           | Guess what? Actual engineers' productivity drops.
           | 
           | There is bloat, of course, but there is also a reason why
           | those tech-adjacent positions exist.
        
             | iguessthislldo wrote:
             | I agree. When I starting working we had a manager that was
             | formerly a SWE on our team. They retired and were replaced
             | by a series of people over the years that, for the most
             | part, didn't have a programming background. At first I was
             | a little dismayed over this, but I eventually realized it
             | doesn't usually matter. It helps for them to have tech
             | knowledge, but like you said they do things I wouldn't care
             | for, but need to be done.
        
         | ganlaw wrote:
         | As someone who has been doing primarily Android engineering for
         | the last 7 years. I am not surprised they are still hiring
         | Android people. It is really hard to hire Android people. Every
         | company I've worked (FANNG included) at struggled to fill
         | Android roles. TikTok has reached out to me every month for the
         | last year or so as well.
        
           | mrguyorama wrote:
           | I did a minuscule amount of app development for android back
           | in the like 4.0 days, and recently tried again, using kotlin
           | and jetpack or whatever their UI kit is. It was awful.
           | Everything is so hard to use. Your UI framework requires you
           | to define completely separate """magic""" functions to
           | preview how it is rendered, as if that makes any sense. All
           | documentation seems to make the classic blunder of assuming
           | you already know the answer, already are an expert in the
           | platform, and already know what you are doing. Every example
           | either hides some magic that they had to add, or requires you
           | already know everything that the example should be teaching
           | you.
           | 
           | I literally feel like I understand the Windows Win32 dev
           | ecosystem, and I've never written a Windows app in my life.
        
           | mattgreenrocks wrote:
           | > It is really hard to hire Android people. Every company
           | I've worked (FANNG included) at struggled to fill Android
           | roles.
           | 
           | Why is that? Does iOS present similar hiring challenges?
        
             | matwood wrote:
             | It's been awhile, but I did both Android and iOS
             | development for a product. iOS felt like a well thought out
             | toolkit to build out very nice apps. Android was closer to
             | here's a box of square legos, good luck. Getting to a
             | polished app on Android was much harder [1].
             | 
             | Then there's the develop loop where the Android emulator is
             | terrible, and the iOS simulator is great. So Android
             | development meant constantly futzing with a device, which
             | you really only want to have to do when you're ready really
             | test.
             | 
             | [1] Games may be different since the game UI is often the
             | same across platforms.
        
             | 0x457 wrote:
             | iOS's developers community had a head start - transitioning
             | from Cocoa to Cocoa Touch is straightforward. Android
             | didn't have this. Android SDK was a giant mess initially,
             | there was no decent IDE for it initially, plenty of things
             | that are `[something doThingWell]` in iOS are much harder
             | in Android to implement.
             | 
             | Then there is fragmentation, availability of $50 devices
             | that guaranteed to have issues with your app.
             | 
             | IMO iOS development is very pleasant (if you have someone
             | other than you to deal with code signing) and Android isn't
             | pleasant at all. Combine that with companies not caring
             | about android apps... All of that contributes to a smaller
             | number of good developers available.
        
               | joshstrange wrote:
               | > if you have someone other than you to deal with code
               | signing
               | 
               | I hear that, though fastlane [0] makes like 1000x easier.
               | Now my first step for any app is setting up a fastlane
               | job to run Github Actions. My goal is to be able to push
               | code and have an app show up in TestFlight without me
               | ever needing to manually manage that. I can even make
               | "blind" changes to the code and push it which is nice for
               | old codebases or when I'm not on my main laptop but have
               | access to my code.
               | 
               | [0] https://fastlane.tools/
        
             | symlinkk wrote:
             | Probably because anyone smart enough to work in tech is
             | smart enough to have an iPhone instead of an Android
        
               | triyambakam wrote:
               | Lol at thinking that Apple is somehow more secure. You've
               | bought the lie. I use Graphene.
        
               | kyawzazaw wrote:
               | is it really about security in the original comment
               | though?
        
               | triyambakam wrote:
               | Then what is it about? The poster claims it's about
               | intelligence so i don't see how else it could be.
        
               | wing-_-nuts wrote:
               | Maybe we're smart enough to want to be able to develop an
               | app without having to use a mac, or easily push any app
               | to our phone, etc.
               | 
               | I would actually argue the opposite. Any techie that
               | loves to tinker on things will probably prefer an andriod
               | phone over an apple one.
        
               | skeeter2020 wrote:
               | Ah yes, you're part of the "exclusive club" of people who
               | own an iPhone; they only added 200M members to their
               | ranks last year. Only the smartest, tech Rockstars... or
               | anyone with a piece of government issue id and enough
               | credit to get a 2-year cell plan.
        
       | gregdoesit wrote:
       | In what is interesting, TikTok / ByteDance was on an absolute
       | hiring spree for devs October to January for sure, while most
       | other tech companies took the back seat or did cuts. Here's data
       | I got my hands on, comparing the number of "software engineer"
       | positions at companies and ByteDance stands out unmissably:
       | 
       | https://twitter.com/gergelyorosz/status/1628831860611506178
       | 
       | Makes me wonder how they missed the memo that Meta got by
       | October/November, Google and Amazon also by end of year: that the
       | market is slowing.
       | 
       | I assumed Bytedance had just as good - if not better - data on
       | the market than eg Meta, but Meta seems to have responded far far
       | earlier to what looks like a stagnating market for as spend, than
       | TikTok.
        
         | poof131 wrote:
         | I wonder if it's TikTok vs ByteDance. From my friend at the
         | former, they are growing rapidly and understaffed vs the teams
         | in China which are bloated and looking for projects. Also seems
         | like they may need to sever the corporate structure and tech
         | architecture which may also reduce the need for headcount in
         | China.
        
         | fakedang wrote:
         | Hubris maybe? Perhaps they expected to each Meta's lunch,
         | perhaps they expected that their core market in China would not
         | be affected.
        
         | rland wrote:
         | Tinfoil hat: the cuts have nothing to do with market
         | fundamentals, but are rather collusion by the big players to
         | drop tech salaries. Bytedance is outside the clique.
        
           | spiderice wrote:
           | I've heard this theory a number of times. I'm not against it.
           | I just don't understand how it would work. Wouldn't salaries
           | just increase again once everybody starts hiring? If this
           | theory is true, all these layoffs are leaving these companies
           | understaffed. Meaning they need to hire everyone back
           | eventually.
        
             | kerpotgh wrote:
             | [dead]
        
             | vineyardmike wrote:
             | The success is two fold:
             | 
             | 1. layoffs make people desperate and reset the
             | expectations. Eg I made 300k at Google but when unemployed
             | I'll take a job for 100k at a random company. Then Google
             | can hire back at 200k and be the top salary again.
             | 
             | 2. Layoffs make the employees scared of being laid off.
             | They don't expect raises, just employment. They work harder
             | for less just to keep a job. Look at Amazon announcing most
             | people won't get a raise or even a stock refresh with the
             | stock crash.
             | 
             | This works at scale even as some individuals and companies
             | don't comply.
             | 
             | Bonus: layoffs (somewhat) reset the cost basis of the
             | company and save a ton in a long term downturns. It gives
             | cover to kill that blockchain department that everyone
             | realizes they don't need.
        
             | rland wrote:
             | Yes, but not immediately. This is how it works:
             | 
             | 1. There are a finite number of software engineers capable
             | of competing with FAANG.
             | 
             | 2. You outbid outsiders. At times, talk to your friends and
             | tell them not to gum up intra-clique recruiting.
             | 
             | 3. This continues for a long time, but at some point,
             | salaries get a little too high.
             | 
             | 4. Flush everyone all at once... resetting the baseline of
             | what a tech salary "should be." This resets expectations
             | for all the new talent coming in that might compete with
             | you.
             | 
             | 5. After the tech salary "should be" a few tens of
             | thousands less... quietly start (2) again.
             | 
             | If you time it right, (2) happens when money is cheap and
             | it's easy to found a competitor, while (4) happens when
             | there is a "tech downturn" and VC are scared. What a tech
             | salary "should be" is quite sticky, it takes a few years of
             | (2) to actually change baseline expectations.
             | 
             | The existing cultural understanding of what tech workers
             | "should be making" influences: what do the most promising
             | new hires demand? how aggressive are your existing workers
             | in asking for a raises, promos, etc? what do people take as
             | a "given" and what do they think is a reach for them? These
             | things operate as a sort of piggy bank. Every time you
             | outbid a startup for promising talent, you are drawing from
             | the piggy bank; that person tells their friends, makes a
             | post on linkedin about it, which causes subsequent
             | outbiddings to cost, pound for pound, ever so slightly
             | more. When the piggy bank is empty, you refill it again by
             | traumatizing everyone with a big, industry-wide layoff.
             | But: you can only do this if you have a big hammer to
             | wield.
             | 
             | As a bonus, if you can be a little bit discerning in your
             | firings, you actually can shed dead weight in the process.
        
             | MuffinFlavored wrote:
             | > just increase again once everybody starts hiring
             | 
             | How long until that? 12 months, 18 months?
             | 
             | If you got fired from your $180k/yr job in 2023 and
             | inflation is another 6% this year (after being 8% last
             | year), you need a $190k/yr job in 2024 to have broken even,
             | right?
        
           | satvikpendem wrote:
           | I doubt it's conscious collusion, it seems more like network
           | effects: if everyone around you is dropping employees, it
           | makes sense to do so at the same time so you don't get
           | negative media coverage were you to do it independently. If
           | you do it now, it just seems like you're following the crowd.
           | 
           | So while it might seem like active collusion, it's more than
           | likely just emergent game theoretic behavior.
        
             | MuffinFlavored wrote:
             | > if everyone around you is dropping employees
             | 
             | Who was the first person to kick it off? Microsoft? Google?
             | Meta? Meta had a reason because their stock tanked due to
             | Apple's privacy changes or whatever.
        
               | wkat4242 wrote:
               | I think it started with the YCombinator letter in may
               | last year: https://techcrunch.com/2022/05/19/yc-advises-
               | founders-to-pla...
               | 
               | I think the economy didn't go as bad as they thought
               | though.
        
           | KptMarchewa wrote:
           | Not a tinfoil hat, collusion at this moment is so obvious.
        
       | outside1234 wrote:
       | Let me guess, 7%
        
         | x86x87 wrote:
         | 12% is the new 5%
        
         | karolist wrote:
         | Full responsibility will be taken by the CEO.
        
         | medler wrote:
         | The article says ByteDance has "1,00,000 employees," a number I
         | initially read (understandably, I think) as one million.
         | 
         | Other sources say they have around 150k employees. With 10k
         | laid off, that would indeed be about 7%
        
           | telotortium wrote:
           | The weird commas are because it's from an Indian site. Indian
           | languages usually count by one, ten, hundred, thousand, and
           | then lakh (one hundred thousand), crore (ten million), etc.
           | That's why there's an additional comma just after the hundred
           | thousands place.
        
       | arberx wrote:
       | "Today is a sad day for all tiktokies..."
        
         | outside1234 wrote:
         | "I take full responsibility for my 30% equity share"
        
           | floucky wrote:
           | "We recruited too many people during Covid"
        
             | MuffinFlavored wrote:
             | "We know you scrolled just every so slightly slower past
             | the video of the young girls dancing provocatively in
             | skimpy clothing"
        
             | oars wrote:
             | "The economic reality which we face today differs from the
             | one we had predicted."
        
               | georgyo wrote:
               | "Things are not all bad, last quarter profits were up
               | 100%"
        
               | FlyingSnake wrote:
               | "I am reminded in moments like this, of something Martin
               | Luther King said..."
        
               | genericone wrote:
               | "You either die a hero or live long enough to see
               | yourself become the villain"
        
               | penguin_booze wrote:
               | "Thank you for all the data you have harvested and
               | elections interfered with. The Emperor thanks you for
               | your services".
        
               | karolist wrote:
               | "I wish you weren't laid off but I wish that less than
               | laying you off."
        
               | guywithabike wrote:
               | Some or all of the content in this message was generated
               | with the help of ChatGPT. Please contact us if you have
               | any questions: discard@company.com
        
               | wpietri wrote:
               | "Macroeconomic changes have made it impossible for me to
               | want to pay you":
               | https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/macroeconomic-
               | changes-ha...
        
               | trashtestcrash wrote:
               | "The world we operate in has changed"
        
       | seydor wrote:
       | Are they copying american companies again?
        
         | ffhhj wrote:
         | $12 blue badge in 3, 2, 1...
        
           | x86x87 wrote:
           | But what about taking full responsibility?
        
       | morelinks wrote:
       | I don't work in tech (and my question here will prove that) but
       | how does a company lay off 10,000 people without seriously
       | harming their product or ceasing products all together? Is tech
       | that bloated? What are people doing all day where it's realistic
       | to lay of 10,000 people?
        
         | newaccount2021 wrote:
         | [dead]
        
         | darth_avocado wrote:
         | 1. You stop pretty much building anything new. That's what most
         | people are working on.
         | 
         | 2. If you go deeper with cuts, most things will continue to
         | work. But behind the scenes it's a dumpster fire with people
         | just trying to keep things running as much as possible. Things
         | still work, but there will be bigger consequences down the
         | road.
         | 
         | 3. You go even deeper. Things work until they don't. People who
         | can fix it are no longer there. You decide to diversify away
         | from that part of business and lose revenue.
         | 
         | The thing is there is a bloat in every single organization you
         | have and tech companies are no different. But depending on how
         | big 10000 is as a percentage of your total headcount, the
         | impact can be anywhere from small to catastrophic
        
         | nathanvanfleet wrote:
         | Maybe they had internal teams that were working on a new social
         | network app and are now divesting from that (not working on it,
         | not releasing it). Maybe they had a lot of smaller teams who
         | were iterating on the experience to increase engagement, lower
         | friction etc which they will now not pursue etc. "Bloat" is a
         | bit naive that somehow they are just paid to look at the left
         | corner of their office or something. The company built out
         | teams to look into new experiences or to make the experience
         | better and they are going to be doing less of that at least for
         | a while
        
         | loeg wrote:
         | It's essentially the same as R&D layoffs in other industries,
         | it's just that tech companies have comparatively huge R&D
         | departments funded by outsized proceeds from other business
         | units.
        
         | paxys wrote:
         | The vast majority of employees at any tech company are working
         | on the next version of the product. So huge layoffs will not
         | impact their ability to keep the lights on, but will likely
         | have an impact on the product roadmap a few months or even
         | years down the line.
        
         | hellomyguys wrote:
         | >Is tech that bloated?
         | 
         | Yes
         | 
         | >What are people doing all day where it's realistic to lay of
         | 10,000 people?
         | 
         | They're probably in meetings, while a fraction of their time is
         | actually spent doing work.
        
         | gabereiser wrote:
         | Teens by the millions are addicted to the scroll... They could
         | just put it on autopilot at this point and their revenue
         | streams wouldn't budge.
        
           | gretch wrote:
           | This mentality wouldn't have worked out for MySpace or
           | Snapchat or Facebook and it's probably not going to be good
           | for whoever is momentarily king of the hill.
        
             | satvikpendem wrote:
             | I wonder if there will ever come a point where the
             | algorithms are really just that good to keep people and
             | newer generations hooked permanently, and that currently we
             | are still in a supoptimal local maxima. For example, people
             | play at the same casinos for decades.
        
         | tootie wrote:
         | Not everyone at a tech company works on the product. It takes a
         | ton of staff to do things like marketing, ad sales, content
         | moderation. They may be backing away from some markets or maybe
         | they automated a lot of the work.
        
         | stu2b50 wrote:
         | Working on R&D for anticipated features. The number of
         | employees that work purely on KTLO is going to be under half at
         | least. The rest are justifying the large revenue multipliers
         | tech stocks get - from their rather high growth rates, which
         | are from expansion and moonshots that pan out.
         | 
         | Now that interest rates are high, the calculus for expansion
         | projects is very different. You may very well be spending more
         | money than you anticipated returning from your moonshots.
        
           | jwagenet wrote:
           | KLTO: keep the lights on, in case anyone else was wondering.
        
             | satvikpendem wrote:
             | This was such an unnecessary term to initialize by the
             | parent, when it had a pivotal meaning in the sentence. I
             | was wondering what the hell. KLTO meant and thought it was
             | the internal codename for TikTok or something.
        
           | x86x87 wrote:
           | the twitter approach! let go of all people that are not
           | needed for KTLO
        
             | wpietri wrote:
             | And then another 25%. And then fire anybody who is honest
             | with the CEO.
        
           | seizethecheese wrote:
           | This is not borne out by the data. The data shows most
           | layoffs are in recruiting, HR, product, design, data science.
           | Yes, it's cutting new projects but it's also just trimming
           | fat.
        
             | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
             | I don't understand your comment. If you're cutting back on
             | future features, not existing operations, you'd absolutely
             | expect product and design to take a big hit, and then of
             | course recruiting and HR because your employee counts are
             | down and you're not hiring.
             | 
             | Data science tends to span both (future product dev and
             | analysis of existing functionality), and data science can
             | be particularly tricky to assign a value to, so not
             | surprised there are also significant cuts there.
        
               | seizethecheese wrote:
               | What I left out is that engineering is mostly not being
               | cut.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2023-02-23 23:01 UTC)