[HN Gopher] Is artificial light poisoning the planet?
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Is artificial light poisoning the planet?
Author : fortran77
Score : 119 points
Date : 2023-02-22 14:33 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.newyorker.com)
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| pard68 wrote:
| I live in one of the darkest locations in the USA. We are nearly
| tied with some places out west in the desert. Still have not
| gotten over the night sky. You spend enough years out here seeing
| it every night, expecting it to eventually be something you take
| for granted, and then realize why so many ancient peoples were
| fascinated and in love with the stars.
| vlunkr wrote:
| So is artificial light poisoning the planet? I think they made
| some interesting points but they didn't even really quantify what
| that means.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| the implied topic is the effect on insect populations, and on
| human psychology due to lack of rest time and other potential
| side-effects.
| dkarl wrote:
| Within the last five years, my street got much brighter, from one
| relatively dim streetlight in the middle of the block to multiple
| much brighter poles. I don't think we had a safety issue before,
| but many people prefer it this way, saying they feel safer.
| (Safer than what?)
|
| I think we have to accept that we poison everywhere we live, and
| strive to concentrate ourselves in a small enough area that the
| planet can tolerate us. Of course, there's a chance we're poising
| ourselves as well, and the lack of outside darkness has some
| effect on us, but certainly on my block that's a minority
| concern.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| They definitely switched from sodium-vapor lights to LEDs in my
| neighborhood and it's almost painfully bright (particularly
| when the streets are wet).
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| I miss the sodium lamps.
|
| They were being transitioned out during my university years.
| First year all the lights on campus were that cool, single
| frequency yellow, by senior year there was just one, stuck in
| a lonely corner of campus, buzzing it's familiar call. I
| think the single emission spectra was a big part of the
| appeal. The complete lack of color left things somewhat
| eerie, but in a distinctly nonthreatening way. Just an alien
| peace.
| dkarl wrote:
| Those were the next best thing to darkness: a color tone
| that we mentally associated with nighttime. I don't know
| whether or not they neurologically messed with our
| circadian rhythm, but at least psychologically it was a cue
| that it was late and "dark outside."
| Forge36 wrote:
| The "feels safer" is an interesting argument. From what studies
| I could find the more light has the opposite impact on safety.
| IE: The more light at night the less safe you actually are/more
| crimes occur.
| parenthesis wrote:
| Criminals like to be able to see what they are doing as much
| as anyone else.
| Arrath wrote:
| Motion sensing lights outside my house certainly did nothing
| to improve safety for me, for the barest extra convenience of
| not having to remember to turn the porch light on before
| leaving when expecting to come back after dark.
|
| They were likely detrimental, especially when considering the
| extra paranoia when I'm sitting there stoned trying to watch
| a movie and the light keeps ticking on outside. I got fed up
| with it and unscrewed the bulbs enough to not turn on, and so
| far my landlord hasn't complained about me doing so.
| iamdbtoo wrote:
| The owner of my building has installed flood lights that are
| on all night and effectively remove any darkness from the
| outside. The main reason given was for safety, despite there
| never being a safety issue, and trying to convince them that
| the opposite is true has been difficult, to say the least.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| It could be that they experienced a lawsuit where not
| having sufficient lighting or having unlit areas where
| people can be expected to walk resulted in an injury, and
| they or the insurance company had to cough up some money.
|
| When those kinds of lawsuits happen, everyone goes into
| cover your ass mode.
| iamdbtoo wrote:
| It's not law suit related because it's a really small
| building and we would know if another tenant had an issue
| of that scale. It could be insurance related, but I doubt
| it. The unfortunate reality is he's just an awful person.
| There are very easy and cheap ways to make it so the
| lights don't shine directly into people's windows he just
| doesn't care (we've asked).
| mistrial9 wrote:
| this is typical of a lot of urban property in the USA. Yet
| as a child I remember many kinds of bugs, crawling and
| flying. Now there are literally none when I look for them,
| on several occasions. Bird population is low, too.
| bratbag wrote:
| We experimented with cutting streetlight power at night where
| I live.
|
| After six months of higher crime rates, we switched them back
| on.
|
| So I suspect its a variable thing, based on location and
| existence of other lighting.
| unshavedyak wrote:
| Could you link them? That's an interesting conclusion. Is
| there any correlation drawn, or even speculation as to the
| cause for this? Perhaps criminals need _some_ light as
| flashlights draw too much attention?
| voakbasda wrote:
| Not without bias, but this article makes a good argument
| and provides plenty of links to other sources:
|
| https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/lighting-crime-
| and-s...
| syntaxing wrote:
| Genuinely curious to see the source of this statement. I was
| always under the impression that more light is safer.
| Zak wrote:
| Here are some studies: https://www.darksky.org/light-
| pollution/lighting-crime-and-s...
|
| This list comes from an organization with an agenda of
| course, and there have been other studies that reached
| different conclusions.
| dustractor wrote:
| I grew up in a rural area where most people opted out of the
| light that the electric company installed for every customer who
| got service. Whenever I visited a city it infuriated me to see
| tens of thousands of lights and my parents would explain the
| 'safety' issue and that it prevented thefts. Nine year old me
| could only think, "well if people are gonna steal, why not spend
| the money you use on that electricity to buy them homes and maybe
| they won't want to steal..."
| thefaux wrote:
| Sadly we all too often collectively choose to hurt ourselves
| rather than raise others up.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| I recently got into astronomy with my kids and it has been
| particularly eye-opening how severe light pollution is.
|
| It's very strange to be in a relatively dim city (Victoria, BC)
| and not being able to see things it seems like I should be able
| to see. I know their apparent size in the sky and that my scope
| can magnify them enough to physically see them, but not enough
| light is coming through to out-shine the atmosphere above me.
|
| It's a bit unsettling to imagine how bad it is in large cities.
| There must be so many things in the sky that people can't see
| with the naked eye that I take for granted. And yet, there are so
| many things I can't see either.
|
| The more I learn to appreciate the night sky, the more it saddens
| me. I'm both eager and a bit anxious to see a truly dark night
| sky; I'll both become more aware of how bad the pollution really
| is, yet I'll get to see space even better than before.
|
| I had the same experience with the ocean. Visiting places rich
| with life, such as protected area which have had plenty of time
| to recover, reveals just how barren and burdened the ocean is
| right outside my home. Fewer plants and animals, less diversity,
| more sediments from industry/runoff/sewage treatment, etc. What a
| crazy thing to do to such crucial and beautiful things we depend
| on.
| xnx wrote:
| Light pollution is an interesting "gateway drug" to broader
| environmental awareness. With coordinated effort, the effects and
| benefits can be witnessed immediately. A broad power outage in
| NYC in 1977 resulted in the Milky Way being visible from the
| Bronx: https://www.space.com/16577-milky-way-galaxy-nyc-
| blackout.ht...
| Gigachad wrote:
| Light pollution seems like the least important from of
| pollution imo. We currently have cars all over the place
| spewing out extremely dangerous carcinogens in the air killing
| a large number of people. I just can't bring myself to care
| about seeing some stars when we are killing people and animals,
| poisoning the dirt, and warming the planet irreversibly.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| Other forms of pollution are worse, but light pollution does
| harm animals. When baby turtles hatch they instinctively look
| for bright lights lower on the horizon and go towards it.
| Because naturally, that will be the moon reflecting off the
| ocean. Bright beachfront buildings are even brighter than the
| reflection of the moon leading them to wander away from the
| ocean
|
| Moths and frogs are also attracted to lights. Migratory birds
| rely on seasonal cues such as changes in the amount of light.
| The OP article also mentions in the intro that it is reducing
| bat populations in areas.
| DarkNova6 wrote:
| Are there any hard facts and clear causations why this is a bad
| thing? I've been hearing about it for years, but have yet to see
| evidence why it would be.
|
| And no, I'm not interested in correlations.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Correlation comes much much earlier in understanding effects,
| especially complex large scale long term ones like this. If we
| always wait for concrete undeniable proof, we will never avoid
| harmful choices, but only understand them after the fact.
|
| And correlations _are not orthogonal_ to causations. They can
| be spurious, but often they are not. Categorically dismissing
| correlations is as naive as categorically accepting them. The
| distinction you 're making is more a type I error vs type II
| error. Which is a valid orientation but doesn't put you on the
| higher intellectual plane the tone of your comment is trying to
| claim.
| Shaggy2000 wrote:
| Climate hoax shill
| auntienomen wrote:
| It's poisoning us. Most of us live in cities now or in densely
| populated suburbs, and have no clue what we've lost in the night
| sky.
| Gigachad wrote:
| How is this poisoning us? What health affects are associated
| with not seeing the stars?
| stuaxo wrote:
| This is good - when I was arguing for this about 5-10 years ago,
| people seemed in favour of eradicating darkness entirely.
| adolph wrote:
| ". . . as their rhodopsin becomes superfluous, they may well
| create descendants who, in even middling darkness, are as blind
| as, it turns out, bats are not . . ."
|
| To say that there is a link between continued usage and
| inheritance of a genetic characteristic is Lamarckism.
|
| _Lamarckism, also known as Lamarckian inheritance or neo-
| Lamarckism, is the notion that an organism can pass on to its
| offspring physical characteristics that the parent organism
| acquired through use or disuse during its lifetime._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism
| nemomarx wrote:
| It doesn't have to be - couldn't descendants who are less
| adapted to the darkness by mutations survive if there's more
| light, and so on?
| nosianu wrote:
| And just a few minutes after reading this submission I see this
| article about "The Dark Sky [Scottish] Town":
|
| https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/dark-sky-moffat-scotla...
|
| > _This Scottish Dark Sky Town Decided To Go Even DarkerU_
|
| > _Moffat's annual experiment in switching off artificial
| lighting has had unexpected results._
|
| Below the article there are links to some other articles about
| similar places, for example "Fredericksburg is one of Texas'
| newest Dark Sky Communities, which makes stargazing here out of
| this world." -- https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/where-to-
| find-dark-ski...
|
| They also have an.. unusual "Courses" section for online courses.
| a1pulley wrote:
| HOAs have their downsides, but I do really appreciate one of my
| CC&Rs: in my ~4 square mile city, we are not allowed to have
| exterior lights apart from ones to illuminate driveways and
| patios. Moreover, there are no street lights in the entire city.
|
| It's an oasis of uncorrupted night in the unlikeliest of places:
| Los Angeles. You can see city lights from certain vantage points,
| but in most places it is pitch black. Living here feels like
| perpetual camping. It is wonderful, and it would be stressful for
| me to return to living in a place with perpetual illumination.
| aeharding wrote:
| > there are no street lights in the entire city.
|
| Yikes. Street lighting is one of the most important safety
| improvements, especially for people walking, as most pedestrian
| deaths due to drivers occur at night.
|
| https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/provencountermeasures/lighting.c...
|
| Of course, if we weren't so dependent on cars to do literally
| everything this wouldn't be the case, and we could safely get
| rid of a lot of street lighting.
| eastbound wrote:
| Similarly, the installation of public lightening by Colbert
| in the XVIIIth in Paris, lowered criminality by an order of
| magnitude.
|
| It also enabled women rights, since, with the ability to
| somewhat walk securely at night or in the early morning,
| comes the ability to go to the factory and work somewhere
| else than in the house.
| xjay wrote:
| These days we'd tap into the cell phone network/radio waves
| to track pedestrians. It's the modern safety reflector or
| high-visibility clothing.
|
| Are you not carrying your phone with you? Well, "it would be
| a shame if something happened to you."
| RobotToaster wrote:
| I appreciate how important it was in the past, but in the era
| of inexpensive and powerful LED flashlights, streetlights do
| seem rather redundant and wasteful.
| TSiege wrote:
| Maybe in rural environments, but they're quite important in
| urban environments
| hammock wrote:
| What part of LA is this?
| a1pulley wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_Hills,_California
| RangerScience wrote:
| Very off-topic, but the Astra Lumina night walk at the
| gardens near you is actually really nice, if you haven't
| been.
| Animats wrote:
| Somewhere in LA, a burglar is probably reading this.
| a1pulley wrote:
| If I were inclined to rob houses, I would find the
| challenge and risk of robbing houses here quite
| interesting. Apart from the fact that all roads in go
| through manned gates, this is the most republican city in
| SoCal. In translation: most of us have a lot of guns.
| rqtwteye wrote:
| Very wealthy area
| Zak wrote:
| I have a family member in Sedona, AZ. There are no street
| lights there except for a single state highway, and private
| always-on outdoor lighting is legally restricted to being low,
| dim, and shaded.
|
| It's pleasant, and I find driving at night there easier because
| headlights provide more contrast when not everything is
| illuminated.
| wcarron wrote:
| I'm just up the road in Flagstaff and the dark skies are
| absolutely one of my favorite parts of living here. Darkness
| is an underrated addition to quality of life.
| vkou wrote:
| Whereas I find nothing pleasant about my night-time drives
| through the suburbs of Bellevue. I spend the entire drive
| paranoid that someone's going to cross the street, and that I
| won't even see them until they are right in front of me.
|
| Rain, darkness, tree cover, _incredibly_ bright oncoming
| headlights, poor street lighting, and enough-of-a-walking-
| culture-that-people-might-be-walking-at-night is a great
| combination.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| So slow down until you can safely stop when an obstruction
| appears at the limits of your low beams.
|
| The speed limit is a maximum speed allowed for driving in
| clear weather in the daytime, not a minimum for driving in
| rain in the dark.
| a1pulley wrote:
| I came here to say the same as the sibling comment. Why not
| slow down? That is what happens in my city: residents drive
| slowly because they don't want to hit a neighbor.
| cryptonector wrote:
| Yellow street lighting is not as polluting as LED street
| lighting. Bring back yellow lighting!
| a1pulley wrote:
| I'm fond of warm, yellow hues for indoor spaces. If I were
| forced to choose a color for outdoor lighting, I would go for
| the same. However, white vs. yellow has already played out in
| some areas: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-
| xpm-1993-09-30-mn-40657-...
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| This is only half true. bluer LED lights only need half as
| much light to get the same visibility.
| cryptonector wrote:
| The hue matters.
| nick__m wrote:
| why completly ban the exterior lights when restricting the
| type, direction and power of the lights is enought to qualify
| for a region to be designated as a IDSR by the International
| Dark sky Association. For pratical exterior lighting tips
| approuved by the IDA this page is a good resource :
| https://en.cieletoilemontmegantic.org/citoyens
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| > there are no street lights in the entire city.
|
| Doesn't this cause issues?
|
| Sounds like it would turn 20 minute walk into a dangerous
| excercise. Do people walking on foot carry torches?
|
| This sounds really crazy from road safety perspective
|
| I don't mean crime, i mean getting lost and collisions.
| gnicholas wrote:
| I walk through my neighborhood at night, and some houses have
| streetside lights, but most do not. I always bring a
| flashlight but typically don't use it. I do teach my kids
| they have to be very careful of cars, because they are too
| short to be seen.
| xjay wrote:
| A safety reflector or other high-visibility clothing is a
| passive method for sending light back at the driver.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_reflector
| hnlmorg wrote:
| Cars are usually equipped with headlights. ;)
|
| On a more serious note, it's pretty common for UK roads to
| lack street lights. Particularly in more rural areas. The
| majority of my drive home from work is unlit.
| justincormack wrote:
| I live in a small village with no streetlights, and lovely
| views of the stars. It is very dark here at night, was a
| real shock coming from the town, I used to walk around
| where I was previously, that was not well lit but the
| amount of ambient light was actually quite high. Very
| different here.
| cld8483 wrote:
| > _Do people walking on foot carry torches?_
|
| At night, if there is insufficient moonlight? Yes of course.
| Street lights only exist in urban areas, if you're walking
| anywhere else in the world at night, a flashlight seems like
| a logical choice.
| pard68 wrote:
| Half the month, in really dark places, the moon is
| sufficient.
| cld8483 wrote:
| Weather permitting too, but yes. Moonlight is quite
| bright once your eyes have adjusted to it.
| sammalloy wrote:
| > Half the month, in really dark places, the moon is
| sufficient
|
| Came here to say this. Unfortunately, most people in
| urban environments have no idea. I spent literally
| decades walking at night in an area with no streetlights.
| Your eyes adjust to the dark, and anyone who comes along
| with a flashlight really annoys you.
|
| Edit: I should note, that in all my time doing this, the
| only time I ever ran into a problem was when a herd of
| deer came running at me in the darkness. I don't think a
| flashlight would have helped.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| light would have stopped them in their tracks
| antisthenes wrote:
| OP clearly stated they have an HOA.
|
| If you have an HOA - you live in an urban area. So I'm not
| sure what your comment alludes to. If I live in such a
| place, I expect to be able to walk on sidewalks without a
| flashlight.
| a1pulley wrote:
| > If I live in such a place, I expect to be able to walk
| on sidewalks without a flashlight.
|
| We don't have any sidewalks. People either take trails
| adjacent to roads or walk on the roads themselves.
| Everyone is aware that pedestrians and equestrians are
| first class citizens, so residents drive slowly. That's
| not true for some delivery drivers and domestic workers,
| but we find the risk-reward tradeoff reasonable enough to
| have left the lighting provision in our CC&Rs for the
| last eighty years. Sometimes, expectations are at odds
| with the realities of what is tolerable in terms of
| safety, good for local flora and fauna, and pleasurable
| for ourselves.
| cld8483 wrote:
| I distinctly remember trick-or-treating in suburbia with
| a flashlight. A flashlight at night is not so odd, that's
| pretty much what they're for.
|
| (And yes, there were sidewalks...)
| sammalloy wrote:
| > I expect to be able to walk on sidewalks without a
| flashlight.
|
| There are any number of ways to provide illumination that
| also mitigates light pollution. This generally means
| placing metal hats on any external light sources
| (vertical or horizontal) that effectively pushes the
| light down and minimizes leakage. The worst offenders in
| my area are the globular light sources that emit light in
| all directions.
| a1pulley wrote:
| > Do people walking on foot carry torches?
|
| It depends. If there's a full moon out, I often walk without
| a light. It's wonderful. Otherwise, I use a headlamp.
|
| > Doesn't this cause issues?
|
| No. I think the main effect is that people finish their
| walks, bike rides, and so forth before dark. Obviously that's
| impossible for much of the year for people who work 9 to 5,
| but given the demographics of this community--small business
| owners with flexible schedules and retirees--it works for
| most. In particular, there is one woman from a nearby street
| who walks past my office window every afternoon: in the
| winter she walks by at 3, and in the summers she walks by
| around 6 with her husband.
|
| > getting lost
|
| I don't think this is a realistic concern for those with
| smart phones. Moreover, the hilly topography and lack of
| cycles in the road network (barring one) make it very easy to
| remain oriented.
| nanomonkey wrote:
| > Do people walking on foot carry torches?
|
| I find a flashlight and a small pocket knife are _essential_
| every day carry. It 's a quality of life issue for me, I want
| to be able to examine something at any time of day, plus
| street lights are intermittent and I walk a lot. I live in
| Oakland, a major city, but still insist on turning on a
| flashlight when I cross the street. People don't pay enough
| attention.
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