[HN Gopher] Creation happens in silence
___________________________________________________________________
Creation happens in silence
Author : josem
Score : 245 points
Date : 2023-02-20 14:28 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (josem.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (josem.co)
| ysavir wrote:
| I'm not sure what the foundation for this is.
|
| Some of the best ideas I've had have been developed with other
| people. Role playing games especially are all about collaborative
| creation. The viewpoint in the article is nothing but tunnel
| vision, focusing on what works _for them_ and projecting it out
| into a rule.
|
| I'd wager what the author really means is that to have control
| over their work, and not having to bend their ideas to develop
| alongside the ideas of others, requires isolation. And that's
| something I can relate to. But that isn't about creation, it's
| about control, and fulfilling your personal vision rather than
| prioritizing a shared vision.
| darxist wrote:
| what about music?
| djxfade wrote:
| I produce music in my own time. And for me it's the exact same.
| wcedmisten wrote:
| This reminds me of Stephen King's reflections from his book "On
| Writing":
|
| > Write with the door closed, rewrite with the door open. Your
| stuff starts out being just for you, in other words, but then it
| goes out. Once you know what the story is and get it right -- as
| right as you can, anyway -- it belongs to anyone who wants to
| read it. Or criticize it.
|
| There's always room for iterative improvement with feedback from
| others, but you need to first make something you believe in.
|
| This kind of clashes with the idea of finding problems to solve
| for other people, but I frequently see advice to "solve your own
| problems" first, because you know them better than other people's
| problems.
| leobg wrote:
| Applies to coding, too, I find.
| proto-n wrote:
| Based on the title alone, you might think that this is about
| needing silence to be creative. But as far as I understand, the
| (very short) post is more about the lack of feedback while
| creating. "While you're reading this, creative people are working
| hard now across the world on the next novel, movie, or song
| you'll love, and yet, you don't know anything about it, and they
| don't know if you'll like it either."
|
| Also, to react to the post itself, yes to some degree, but also
| no? Most crative processes involve multiple people going back and
| forth, giving feedback along the way. Editors, teammates, talking
| to family, brainstorming, etc. Yeah it's not the final audience,
| but it's similar. A mind on its own is so so much less creative
| then two minds interacting.
| M95D wrote:
| Sounds like product development, not creation (as in creative
| work).
| taylodl wrote:
| Product development is creation, is it not? Sure, the medium
| is different and even the process may be different but
| product development is a creative endeavor.
| lmarcos wrote:
| At least for me, product development is all about the
| business: you need to get feedback to know you're building
| the right thing (otherwise you're fired). Whereas when one
| creates alone, it's all about the pleasure of creating for
| the sake of it.
| californical wrote:
| There is a creative part of product development though.
| You need to come up with something to vet with the
| outside first!
|
| Successful product development usually needs more than
| _just_ the creative process, but it's not totally absent
| the upfront creative side either.
| andai wrote:
| I can't remember which article it was, but Steve Pavlina said
| people often ask him, "ok I've written my book, now how do I
| sell it?" and he's like, "you dingus! You're supposed to get
| the audience first, and _then_ create for them! "
|
| So there's a spectrum, from creating in silence to creating in
| public, which is perhaps down to personal preference or
| temperament (introversion / extraversion?).
|
| I've often seen people launch mailing lists and pre-orders for
| products, books, courses, of which they have not yet written a
| single line. So their early users get a discount in exchange
| for providing invaluable feedback during the development
| process.
| melvinmelih wrote:
| > You're supposed to get the audience first, and then create
| for them
|
| This is certainly the smart thing to do, but there's
| something about "creating something for an audience" that
| stops my creative juices from flowing. I guess there are too
| many thoughts about how this will be received and what people
| might think, that it stops me from creating truly great work.
| xwdv wrote:
| Creation should require some form of bravery, blindly
| plunging into the unknown. Not knowing how the creation will
| be received until it's actually created.
|
| In the past decade people have been getting burnt out on all
| these lean startup, kickstarting fucks that just want to test
| for a market or audience before building out a product. The
| end result is we are bombarded with vaporware products,
| services, books, that we have to show interest in or worse
| put some money down before the creator decides to actually
| create anything. This makes people skeptical of "new"
| offerings. The consumer wants a product right away, not a
| promise. Also, the end product becomes subject to the tyranny
| of whatever can be tested for with pre-marketing.
|
| The risk needs to shift back onto the creator. I'm talking
| big designs upfront; products coming to market ready to
| consume. If it does poorly, the creator just takes the hit in
| the form of wasted time and money. This is how things _used_
| to be, before a generation of entrepreneurs decided they
| wanted to be risk averse and try out a hundred half baked
| ideas rather than one idea really well thought out. It seems
| that as the skill of getting products right on the first try
| began to wane, "lean" processes began to grow in popularity.
| rchaud wrote:
| > I've often seen people launch mailing lists and pre-orders
| for products, books, courses, of which they have not yet
| written a single line.
|
| I can spot these people from a mile away.
|
| What they're doing is antithetical to the sentiment expressed
| in this post, which is about being creative. Not doing pre-
| marketing for some side hustle course or e-book.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _I 've often seen people launch mailing lists and pre-
| orders for products, books, courses, of which they have not
| yet written a single line. So their early users get a
| discount in exchange for providing invaluable feedback during
| the development process._
|
| Or, more often, their users get _nothing at all_.
|
| I steer clear of people doing this. It's one thing get other
| people's feedback on what's clearly communicated as just an
| idea, or a work in progress. It's another thing to claim you
| have a ready (or launching any minute now!) product/service,
| while all you really have is a webpage full of lies and a
| textbox for victims of your con artistry to leave their
| contact information, so you can "gauge interest" / "determine
| market size" (and possibly spam those e-mails later with
| something else). The latter I consider dishonest, and on the
| off chance someone doing this actually launches their thing,
| I'll already be biased against purchasing/subscribing.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Brainstorming is actually a formal process where you bounce
| ideas back and forth without judgment; a "yes and" state of
| mind, instead of checking if the ideas are viable.
| User23 wrote:
| > Based on the title alone, you might think that this is about
| needing silence to be creative
|
| On that tangent, I believe this is very much dependent on the
| person in question. I personally like to do knowledge work in
| library silence. I even find music distracting, although
| instrumental music without vocals is better than open office
| noise. On the other extreme I've heard stories that Richard
| Feynman liked to do physics in strip clubs. I'm not ashamed to
| admit that Feynman was more creative than I'm likely to ever
| be, but I don't think that my relative inferiority in that
| regard is because I'm not working from a strip club.
| mrandish wrote:
| > because I'm not working from a strip club.
|
| Like you, I mostly prefer creating in quiet solitude
| approaching sensory deprivation. However, sometimes I find it
| possible to coax a creative idea or concept into conscious
| awareness when surrounded by a familiar roar of external
| stimuli but only as long as I perceive that cacophony as a
| fairly uniform wall of noise. Personal examples include
| aimlessly walking alone around a massive trade show floor
| with booths all blaring their visual and sonic messages. For
| me, such noisy environments seem especially good for more
| "connectionist" type inspirations.
|
| I've heard the Feynman strip club story and others like it,
| and always interpreted it in a similar way. It appears that
| environment was both familiar and comfortable for Feynman and
| perhaps his ideas could emerge as signal from the wall of
| perceptual noise.
| cableshaft wrote:
| For sure. And take board game design. If your game isn't being
| put in front of people in a prototype state and getting
| feedback (and more than just your closest friends), you're
| likely putting yourself at a disadvantage when you put a game
| out there. There are conventions and playtest groups just for
| getting that feedback before you commit to the full project.
|
| It'll help you identify problem areas in the game, how engaged
| the players are, if they find it interesting, help you with
| specific design problems you're having, etc. I don't think a
| single board game design of mine hasn't incorporated at least
| something from the feedback I've gotten from others, before it
| was pitched to publishers/released.
|
| The same technically applies to video games as well, but that's
| much riskier, as if you put it out there too much too early,
| there's a real risk that another developer will take your idea
| and beat you to market with it (unless it's a narrative or
| content-heavy game, like a Stardew Valley or Undertale, which
| my games tend not to be). I've had a few of my games get cloned
| and put onto other platforms before I've had a chance to, for
| example, and I'm just a small solo developer.
|
| I do agree that you need periods of silence, though. Sometimes
| very long periods.
| eternalban wrote:
| The true silent creation is the transformation of the creative
| human being. Creative activity, specially if it is private, will
| inevitably transform character. It 'cooks' and may even become
| tasty. This is the actual fruit of creative effort that is
| entirely personal (though widely shared via interactions) and in
| my opinion the sole motivation for being creative beyond the
| pleasures involved. All else is vanity.
| HPsquared wrote:
| I do my best work at night, offline.
|
| EDIT: I think in knowledge work, a kind of "sow and harvest"
| model works well. Going around during the day collects little
| "seeds" of knowledge which are then synthesized (harvested) in
| quiet periods of deep work at night.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| So do I.
|
| If I knew how hard it is to square software work with having a
| family, I'd have chosen a different career track.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| A real artist respects the silence as it serves as the foundation
| of creativity!
|
| https://youtu.be/9E62iA6KCIQ
| waynesonfire wrote:
| > Creation happens in silence
|
| Not according to Amazon and their 3 day return to office policy.
| swayvil wrote:
| With silence comes clarity.
|
| That's a well-known meditation thing.
|
| There are lots of ways to get silence : solitude, peaceful
| lifestyle, concentration...
|
| Concentration is a big one. It de-agitates your organs of
| perception. And it can be taken to profound levels of refinement.
| And then you see ... deeper.
|
| As any scientist/engineer/artist is surely familiar.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| The article is actually about not knowing how a creative
| endeavor will be perceived. Not physical silence.
| [deleted]
| swayvil wrote:
| Actually... Oh what's the point.
| DanielBMarkham wrote:
| I wrote on this over the weekend in an essay titled "Forced
| Boredom"
|
| A lot of this is standard advice for various creators. I think,
| however, that it's possible to optimize yourself for the process.
| I find in my professional life and watching others that there are
| creative stages which are followed by forgetting these lessons,
| then re-learning them all over again. Humans are complex
| machines.
|
| Shameless plug: https://danielbmarkham.com/forced-boredom/
| evan-buss wrote:
| "Our species is the only creative species, and it has only one
| creative instrument, the individual mind and spirit of man.
| Nothing was ever created by two men. There are no good
| collaborations, whether in music, in art, in poetry, in
| mathematics, in philosophy. Once the miracle of creation has
| taken place, the group can build and extend it, but the group
| never invents anything. The preciousness lies in the lonely mind
| of a man." - John Steinbeck, East of Eden
| [deleted]
| flat-pluto wrote:
| The author says silence but means isolation - ".....isolation
| without any signals or external validation until it's complete"
|
| I'd say this is just the first stage of creating something, an
| MVP of sorts. After that you do need to get some feedback,
| iterate and improve it step-by-step to get the finished product.
| josem wrote:
| Hey!
|
| Author here :)
|
| It was more a metaphor from that moment when I was writing in
| fact in silence and the lack of any external input / voice
| telling me whether something I'm doing is good or bad but I
| know what you mean, perhaps using "isolation" would have made
| the article clearer, thanks!
| mrandish wrote:
| I also reacted the same way to your write-up. As a
| professional creative toward the end of a multi-decade
| career, I interpreted it as describing the initial moment of
| inception, which for me, tends to come all in a rush after a
| long period of uninterrupted solitude. However, after the
| 'aha' realization my creative process turns to first
| capturing the now-connected pieces, then forming them into
| some rough first expression and bouncing that off of early
| collaborators for feedback. This is usually followed by an
| intense period of creative engagement with others as the
| initial idea or concept is sharpened and refined from an
| often messy pile of "not quite it" into something much more
| like its eventual self.
|
| What you described is the often invisible first parts of
| creation which involve exploring the space, then posing the
| question or framing the problem and finally stewing on it
| until the seed of the thing is ready to emerge in that moment
| of solitude. The best collaborators and producers understand
| the necessity and shape of this process.
| leobg wrote:
| Rich Hickey says "the computer is the worst place to work". I
| guess he means precisely for the reason you state. The best
| ideas come when there's no input from outside.
| flat-pluto wrote:
| I also knew what you meant but it was more for those people
| who skip the article and comment based solely on the title.
|
| Sidenote - if you can find the time, you should write more
| often. I just went through your articles and there is a lot
| of useful advice to be found. The projects are pretty
| interesting too. Cheers!
| josem wrote:
| Thank you, you've made my day with this comment!
| [deleted]
| pklausler wrote:
| I get ideas and find solutions in many environments, but never in
| places where I can hear people speaking, like high-density open-
| plan office hellscapes.
| jmbwell wrote:
| This is a concise thought expressed clearly. I fully agree that
| much of the work of being creative happens in silence, or more
| specifically, in a state of flow, in which all of the creator's
| faculties and energies are directed toward the manifestation of
| intent. It's a rare state even for prolific creators.
|
| Sure there's other work to be done, all the administration and
| logistics of adapting the product to the need, all the business
| aspects, the mechanical, what have you. But the springing to life
| of an idea into reality... there's a species of this that seems
| to emerge in isolation.
|
| For some, and I count myself among this group, the challenge that
| comes next is in releasing this ore of an idea to its audience or
| its destination. As soon as you publish it, it's no longer under
| your control. People make what they will of it. It may not be
| what you intended them to make of it. But you can no longer help
| it. It's everyone else's product now.
|
| So you can protect it and hold on to it and keep it in its
| isolation to maintain its reflection of the conditions that
| created it, or you can release it, and let it find a life of its
| own. Sometimes that's scary and sometimes that's exhilarating.
| Whatever it is, the moment of silence between it and its creator
| is something only the creator will have experienced.
| [deleted]
| kerkeslager wrote:
| It's a bit arrogant to assume that _your_ creative process is
| _everyone 's_ creative process.
|
| I sometimes need silence for periods of intense concentration,
| but that's really not sustainable for me and more often I need
| collaboration to create, bouncing ideas off other people and
| getting feedback and additional ideas. This doesn't work as well
| for really intricate sorts of creativity, but the reality is
| that, for me, the majority of creativity isn't that.
|
| I particularly had to chuckle when the OP mentions _music_. Sure,
| they don 't directly say it gets created in silence, but they do
| say it happens in isolation, which is true in some cases, but
| just isn't true for the vast majority of bands.
|
| Even creation which has little to do with sound, such as novel-
| writing, is often done with sound and collaboration: if you read
| enough about writing you'll discover that many novelists seek
| other novelists to discuss ideas with, or you'll find that
| certain novels were written while listening to certain albums.
|
| Of course, some creation does happen in silence and isolation.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| I feel like most of my creative problem solving happens when I'm
| not working on the problem. There seems to be, roughly speaking,
| a three part process:
|
| * A loading phase where I immerse into the problem. This requires
| silence and concentration. Basically staring at the problem and
| its various aspects for a few hours. Hmm. What if? No. But maybe.
| Nope. Hmm. Hmm. The problem will often seem too big to fit in my
| head. I can sort of fumble and grasp its outline, but I don't see
| it clearly.
|
| * A background processing phase, this requires a sense of almost
| boredom. I need to step away from the keyboard. A disengagement
| from further input, from intellectual stimuli in general. I can't
| distract myself with entertainment either. I must be a bit bored.
|
| * All the sudden there will be clarity, deep insight into what
| needs to be created. Like the microwave going _bing_ , signalling
| the cooking is ready. I'll solve not only one problem, but half a
| dozen. The solutions come faster than I can implement them. I
| need to pace myself and write my ideas down before I implement
| them.
|
| It's a heck of a ride.
| whateveracct wrote:
| I also have this process. Sadly, it means I cannot go faster to
| some degree. Which becomes a pain when a manager wants
| Velocity.
| maccard wrote:
| I've found exercise works best for step 2, fwiw. I rotate
| weightlifting, yoga, golf and dog walking with great success.
| thealienthing wrote:
| Sometimes I get that epiphany of "oh I forgot this!" Then run
| back to my computer to try it. Usually that wasn't the problem
| but after running back two or three times I my epiphany turns
| out to be true
| nathias wrote:
| for me its similar but I don't need boredom, I either get the
| insight randomly or in dreams/waking up
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| I think boredom is maybe the wrong thing. I can't be too
| engaged in something. That seems to sabotage the process. I
| can't play video games or watch some exciting movie (or
| scroll HN ;-)
|
| Physical work can help. Or just doing something that's not
| too engaging.
| SL61 wrote:
| It's the same for me: the eureka moment happens when I'm not
| consciously thinking of the problem at all, and often I'm
| fully engaged in an unrelated activity.
|
| Some places I've experienced sudden insight for a technical
| problem:
|
| * playing a video game on Saturday evening
|
| * briefly awake at 3am to use the bathroom
|
| * shopping for tea kettles on Amazon
|
| * reading aloud in a writer's group
|
| The idea just pops into my head, sometimes throwing me off
| the task I'm actually focused on. I assume there's a
| subconscious portion of my brain still calculating the
| problem even when I don't realize it, but I can see why some
| people believe their insights come from a higher power.
| anonymouse008 wrote:
| Yep - and here's the book on it: The Eureka Factor: Aha
| Moments, Creative Insight, and the Brain
|
| https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400068541/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...
| mgfist wrote:
| For me it's always more effective to be doing something
| physical in the second phase. Walking, chores, showering. It
| helps the focus.
| keyle wrote:
| It's amusing but most people get stuck on the first phase,
| endlessly browsing and bookmarking, watching youtube videos,
| and eventually, distracted to hell, RIP creativity "it's all
| too hard" or "it's been solved before by people much better
| than me".
| spfzero wrote:
| Bill Lear is quoted as having described his creative process
| similarly. Can't find a reference to it now but I read it
| decades ago and never forgot it.
| vi2837 wrote:
| Nothing new here, it is a well known problem solving method for
| physicists.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| I'm a physicist by education, coincidentally.
| vi2837 wrote:
| I am too and working in software development :).
| dbcurtis wrote:
| You very succinctly put what creativity researchers (yes,
| that's a thing) have been saying for decades.
|
| 1. Immersion in the problem. Work diligently. 2. Relax 3.
| Insight
| uptownfunk wrote:
| This mimics physical exercise. You lift heavy weight actively,
| and then you go rest, then you come back and the next
| (day/week/month) you can suddenly lift heavier (assuming you're
| getting the right nutrition/rest and avoiding toxic substances)
|
| Similarly the brain muscles, you work them out actively, then
| you rest, some background magic is happening, and when you come
| back and revisit it, all of a sudden the problem can be easier.
| You can do something / solve something that all of a sudden you
| couldn't do previously.
|
| The eureka/a-ha moment is a little unique to intellectual work.
| It's hard to find something that gives a similar rush to
| cracking a hard problem.
|
| Brings back some fond memories solving USAMO/IMO problems.
| brightball wrote:
| Accurate. This cycle is a big part of the reason why I don't
| like situations where I have developers context switching
| constantly. I find that this doesn't happen unless I'm absorbed
| in a single problem.
| cainxinth wrote:
| > _It 's a heck of a ride._
|
| Funny, you conclude that way because a lot of my background
| processing and moments of sudden clarity happen when I go
| cycling after work.
| alt227 wrote:
| Completely agree.
|
| Excuse the crudeness, but for me your 'Step 2' is to go and sit
| on the toilet. I have solved untold amounts of problems by
| stepping away from the computer and sitting on the pot for 20
| mins.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| That can help, or just the classic shower insight, but for me
| I often get even bigger dividends by stepping _way_ away from
| the computer.
|
| I've had absolute avalanches of new insights when I've been
| away from any sort of computer for days. It feels like the
| process of loading more "problem" into the working buffer
| interrupts or even resets these background processes to some
| degree.
| jareklupinski wrote:
| it's the shower for me too
|
| something about the sound that helps detune the parts of
| the brain that aren't needed, giving maximum
| energy/flexibility to the background cores
| mordae wrote:
| Works in the tub as well. I believe it's a combination of
| white noise from the water, lack of windows and screens
| and hot water feeling relaxing.
| gurjeet wrote:
| Pacing around in the parking lot has worked for me many a
| times.
| erik_seaberg wrote:
| I still miss working a block away from Yerba Buena. Office
| parks aren't quite the same.
| fakedang wrote:
| No shame there. I figured out the answer to a question posed
| by a professor (which later evolved into my master's thesis),
| while sitting on the porcelain throne. Letting go of a few
| solids perhaps let's your mental obstacles loosen.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| I, like clearly a lot of others :-), resonate with this form.
| For me step 2 is walking. Taking a walk for a couple of miles
| around the neighborhood is "just boring enough" to trigger this
| background processing phase.
| simpsond wrote:
| Almost OODA like. I have a similar process. I noticed that when
| I started taking cat naps mid afternoon, loaded with context, a
| solution would find me. Walks are good too.
| trashymctrash wrote:
| Very well put. I love the metaphors, especially the "microwave
| going bing" :D
|
| Just curious: Where would you put "gather input or feedback
| from peers" in that process?
| 8note wrote:
| Part 1, and after part 3
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| I don't think that is part of this process. It's certainly
| part of engineering, but not this side of creative problem
| solving. This is way off in the deep end. I guess it may be
| part of early phase 1 in the sense of immersing myself in the
| problem space, but often I don't know even know what problem
| I'm solving. Like, not really _know_ it.
|
| The moment of clarity is when the question is revealed and
| the answer is obvious. It's a real parting of the clouds
| moment.
| pyrolistical wrote:
| Yep. Same cycle https://blog.battlefy.com/how-a-principal-
| developer-solves-a...
| eshack94 wrote:
| I'm a bit taken aback by how accurately your creative problem
| solving process resembles mine. I've never been able to explain
| it so eloquently or cohesively.
|
| During the first phase, the "problem will often seem too big to
| fit in my head" is so accurate, especially while I'm still
| focused on understanding the problem (prior to breaking it down
| into more manageable pieces).
|
| I appreciate this comment, thank you.
| rankvise wrote:
| here's always room for iterative improvement with feedback from
| others, but you need to first make something you believe in.
| https://rankvise.com/
| erulabs wrote:
| I notice a lot of the comments here conflate "creation" and
| "creative problem solving", and I really think they're different
| things. I'm an engineer - so I absolutely love sitting in a room
| of smart people and hashing out a solution to a hard problem -
| but that's different I think than what the author is referring
| to.
|
| Creation, building a wholly new thing, is a different activity
| than engineering or problem solving, and I agree - requires
| silence. Creation also implies an increase in the number of
| problems - maybe that's why I tend to avoid silence... nice
| article - I think I'll turn off YouTube and code in silence
| today!
| nicbou wrote:
| Not quite. A lot of it, no doubts, but I spend more and more time
| seeking inspiration and querying my peers. I involve other people
| both as a type of rubber ducking, and as a sanity test.
| hinkley wrote:
| My experience dealing with wrongheaded coworkers is this: The
| more time you spend isolated working on a problem, the more
| sunk cost fallacy you experience when people push back on your
| idea.
|
| We have a whole bunch of programming techniques that allow us
| to make progress and lay groundwork outside of flow state, and
| then when we are certain that we have the solution, jump in for
| brief periods and come back out to check in with the world.
|
| Saints preserve me from people who disappear for eight hours at
| a time and expect me to compliment them for their echo chamber
| work. Software is a team sport, not a painting.
| worik wrote:
| Not for musicians in rock bands.
|
| Quite the opposite.....
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I enjoyed the read.
|
| For me, it's similar.
|
| Not sure how much it resonates with today's software development
| zeitgeist, however.
|
| It seems that most software development companies believe that
| creation happens in large, open-plan offices, filled with
| chattering people.
| wpietri wrote:
| I am sure this is true for some people in some situations, but
| the sweeping arrogance of this makes me kinda mad:
|
| > any creation happens in isolation without any signals or
| external validation until it's complete. [...] Any idea or
| creative work you can think of happens in silence. [...] This
| isolation happens in all fields: movies, music, literature, or
| product development.
|
| This is just factually false.
|
| A really obvious counterexample is improvisational theater. The
| creation happens as a team activity in front of an audience. It's
| absolutely rich with signals. There's nary a pause, let alone
| silence. The same is obviously true with musical improvisation.
| And the creation of recorded music can also be deeply
| collaborative. [1]
|
| If you talk with stand-up comedians about their process, they get
| ideas from all over, but workshopping material with live
| audiences is a vital part of the process of creation. Movies have
| storyboards and read-throughs and dailies and reshoots and
| intense cross-disciplinary collaboration and iteration. [2]
| Literature has writing groups and readings and editors and
| friends who read drafts.
|
| In product development, we have prototypes and user tests and
| continuous release and instrumentation and cross-functional teams
| and short-cycle processes, all of which can drive creativity if
| we choose.
|
| Do some people need silence to create? Sure. Bless them. For
| those that experience periods of silence, can that be a struggle?
| Definitely. But the notion of a noble solo genius high on his
| mountain creating great things is more myth than reality, and it
| can be a harmful one because it makes a lot of people think they
| can't be creative, when instead they just need a richer
| environment.
|
| [1] E.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M607TcuKf78
|
| [2] E.g.: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-
| features/maki...
| jarjoura wrote:
| Great creation is never done in isolation.
|
| However, I think there's a mismatch of definitions. Getting to
| a destination, and seeing the big picture usually takes a lot
| of minds to envision. Once you know the destination, then in
| most industries, it falls back on the individual to figure out
| how to get to that destination. That's the quiet part.
|
| In the software industry, it's both collaborative and solo at
| the same time. How many projects have you worked on where
| someone comes in and clobbers code you've just committed and
| then there's merge conflicts and wasted effort trying to
| understand what they were doing? If that hasn't happened to you
| yet, you're lucky. So on the one hand, agree, you're both
| trying to build something together, but most likely you're both
| off in your corner figuring out how to contribute your part.
|
| I do think some of the loneliest parts of creation are when you
| see something no one else does and you can't really explain it
| without building it first. The amount of effort and energy
| required to do that is higher than normal and the fear that it
| could backfire weighs on you.
| wpietri wrote:
| Software can be like that, but it doesn't have to be. I've
| been part of teams where we built entire products with
| pairing, frequent pair rotation, and cross-functional teams.
|
| Loneliness is a choice we have made, but I don't think it's a
| very good one.
| flockonus wrote:
| Well, to be fair, both you and the author fall for the same
| mistake: conflating what works your you/them, in your/their
| context, with what's generally good / bad.
| wpietri wrote:
| Oh? Where exactly did I do that?
| alt227 wrote:
| > Do some people need silence to create? Sure. Bless them.
|
| I would disagree and say your example is pretty much the only
| one which works this way, because the process and result
| requires multiple people to be expressive together.
|
| Maybe dance and musical performance might fit the same rough
| description, but in those the skill required is personal based,
| and so most of the contributers will be in silence
| concentrating very hard on their own part and how it fits into
| the restas opposed to being completely collaborative.
| wpietri wrote:
| > your example is pretty much the only one
|
| Which example? I gave 7.
| alt227 wrote:
| > Which example? I gave 7.
|
| IMO Improvistional Theatre is the only valid example here,
| the other 6 IMO are silent and I will explain why:
|
| 1. Music - Done mainly in ones own head, drawing on
| personal experience and skill to find something which fits
| with what you are hearing. The process may not be silent,
| but the creation is.
|
| 2. Stand up comedy - The writing/creation is done by the
| comedian alone, then when workshopping in front of a live
| audience they assessing the material against the reactions,
| and adjusting it in their brain silently. An audience
| reacting is not creating anything, it is informing the
| creative process going on in the brain.
|
| 3. Literature has editors and friends who read drafts -
| again all the creation is done in silence. Feedback may be
| given verbally, but that informs the creation, it is not
| part of it.
|
| 4. Product development - This is not artistic creation. It
| is commerical development. The initial idea and creation is
| most likely done by an inventor/designer on their own in
| silence. It is commercial requirements which push this into
| the further areas of development as you suggest.
|
| I fully accept this is a subjective opinion so I am not
| stating you are wrong, only how other people can have
| different opinions based on perspective of what creation,
| the creative process, and indeed silence actually is.
|
| You must have miscounted because I cant find another 2?
| wpietri wrote:
| How many of these have you actually observed happening?
| Because your assertions that they are "silent" (in the
| sense of the original piece) seems wildly out of line
| with what I've seen. You might try watching the
| documentary I linked to see how you're wrong about
| recorded music, for example. And if if your only
| experience of product development is that sort of top-
| down drudgery, I'm truly sorry, but it absolutely can be
| richly creative and collaborative.
|
| > You must have miscounted because I cant find another 2?
|
| That you're blaming your failures on me is not a good
| sign, so this is probably my last reply. I also mentioned
| improvisational music and movies. I could also add staged
| theater, in which much of the creative work happens in
| group contexts (starting with table readings, going
| through all of the rehearsals, and often after).
| np- wrote:
| Pair programming? That's multiple people being creative
| together with nothing to do with music or performance. I
| think there are plenty of examples of collaborative
| creativity.
| wpietri wrote:
| Absolutely. I was part of a startup that did pairing with
| frequent pair rotation. We also collaborated very closely
| with product/design. It great to be in the middle of
| coding, come across a product question, and drag over the
| product manager for discussion. Often together we'd come up
| with an approach that was better than any of us would have
| separately.
| xyzelement wrote:
| [dead]
| codingdave wrote:
| "This isolation happens in all fields: movies, music, literature,
| or product development. But it's necessary. No one will come and
| tell you to create something."
|
| While a nice ideal, this feels 100% incorrect. All of those are
| commercial endeavors that have people coming to you telling you
| to create something. Some of them even come to you with pre-
| written requirements, scripts, etc. and tell you to create it. Or
| you have a contract committing you to creating a certain amount
| of work.
|
| Individual periods of creative flow may be done in isolation,
| that is true. But the article went too far to claim that
| isolation is a given in creative work.
| chadlavi wrote:
| A ton of creation happens in conversation or collaboration with
| others, even if this author doesn't think so.
| malfist wrote:
| With the push to return to office where those offices are over
| crowded and open, makes me wonder how much these companies are
| strangling the creativity of their workforce.
| berkle4455 wrote:
| I find it much easier to focus at the office than at home with
| my family.
| malfist wrote:
| If that's you, then feel free to return to the office, just
| don't drag the rest of us who don't work like you to the
| office because of your family.
| VeninVidiaVicii wrote:
| I couldn't agree more. It's disheartening to see that in
| some workplaces, the organization and support resemble a
| daycare more than a professional setting. This pattern of
| behavior involves offloading responsibilities to others to
| create a productive environment, and it's not an approach
| that leads to successful outcomes.
| kittyn wrote:
| glad to see someone who can call a spade a spade
|
| of course this opinion won't be popular with all the
| people who just grind for their kids and locked in
| mortgage
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| You are comparing the office with working ad-hoc around your
| family.
|
| For remote work to work you really need to build a designated
| space where you go to for the 'work' part of your day. It
| could be a part of a bedroom, an attic, a basement, a co-op
| office, the point is that it must create separation and you
| also have to explain this separation to your family and ask
| them to respect it.
|
| Just because you are remote doesn't mean you are working
| 'from home' there is a huge difference perhaps not in
| distance but in mindset.
| PeterisP wrote:
| It's not that easy to just "create separation" - I can
| imagine that most people complaining about this have actual
| lived-in experience about trying to do that for multiple
| years now since the onset of Covid, and it doesn't work for
| everyone. "explain this separation to your family and ask
| them to respect it" implies either some wishful thinking or
| quite privileged assumptions about this being practically
| reasonable where you just need to discuss it to make it
| true. A part of a bedroom plus asking to be left alone (and
| people trying to do that) does not create a work
| environment that's even remotely comparable to an office.
|
| Again, do be reasonable and assume that everyone who has
| issues with it has tried all of what you suggested multiple
| times over the last years and has gotten to a solid
| conclusion that it doesn't work and the separation at home
| is not going to happen for their particular situation of
| family and housing. And if someone needs to work not from
| home but in an office away from home, most people can't
| simply afford a proper office if they're not using an
| employer-provided one.
| eyear wrote:
| Jing Zhe Xin Duo Miao
| malfist wrote:
| Gentle reminder that hacker news is an english site, per the
| rules you should be responding in english so that there is
| benefit to the group here.
|
| The article you're commenting on is also in english.
| jmbwell wrote:
| I suspect posting an arguably relevant comment in its
| original language was a stylistic choice more than a lapse in
| memory of this site's preference for English. That said, a
| more complete post might indeed have included an English
| translation, an indicator of the source, and perhaps some
| other context.
| dboreham wrote:
| Google translate works though (at least I think it did...)
| swayvil wrote:
| TRANSLATOR BOT ACTIVATED
|
| calm mind that enjoys quietness can often achieve inner peace
| and deep perception
| andsoitis wrote:
| google translate says: "what a wonderful mind", so you're just
| saying "good post"?
| layer8 wrote:
| Also written as Jing Zhe Xin Duo Miao , this seems to be a
| quote from a poem by famous eighth-century Chinese poet Du Fu
| [0]. See in [1], where it is translated as "The serene have
| many marvels in the heart". This [2] site also lists the
| translation "With a peaceful mind, you can create wonders",
| which maybe works a bit better.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du_Fu
|
| [1]
| https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/2742...
|
| [2] https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/35880967
| dudul wrote:
| No no no, I've been told many times that creation happens during
| lunch break at the water cooler! And hard problems are solved by
| gathering around The Architect at The Whiteboard. /s
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I mean there's a big difference between creating something new
| and solving a problem.
| lnsru wrote:
| Read this about the creative collaboration last week in an
| e-mail from CEO. Creative collaboration looks a bit different
| in open office. People hide in kitchen and labs from the noise.
| dandellion wrote:
| I don't fully agree with this. While it's true that 90% of
| everything I create happens in isolation until I publish it, I've
| also participated in a few Game Jams where the full creative
| process is very collaborative.
| revskill wrote:
| Same for destruction ;)
| [deleted]
| myheadasplode wrote:
| This doesn't track for me at all, and I'm wondering if I'm
| misunderstanding the point.
|
| The mere presence of another person in the room, whether they're
| contributing and providing feedback or not, generates idea after
| idea for me. Some of the best ideas I've had have come from
| sitting in my living room watching my roommate play Rocket
| League, with us occasionally discussing the game. It feels so
| difficult and pointless and uninspiring alone that I've
| considered hiring an intern or apprentice just to sit there in
| the studio with me.
|
| > As painful as it is, any creation happens in isolation without
| any signals or external validation until it's complete.
|
| This is the exact opposite of my experience writing lyrics. We're
| all constantly bouncing ideas off of each other, immediately and
| repeatedly. Speaking the lyrics out loud to someone else to gauge
| how they'll be received in a song is a go-to method in my circle.
| And if that's just revision and not creation, well, most of my
| song ideas stem from random phrases spoken out loud to someone in
| conversation.
|
| > While you're reading this, creative people are working hard now
| across the world on the next novel, movie, or song you'll love,
| and yet, you don't know anything about it, and they don't know if
| you'll like it either.
|
| I guess this is saying that artists generally don't share half-
| complete ideas, which is true, but that's because audiences don't
| do well with filling in the gaps on their own, not because
| "creation happens in silence". Creation is collaborative and
| chaotic.
|
| If you think I'm misreading this article please let me know! It's
| a real head scratcher.
|
| edit: one exception comes to mind - I'm only _inspired_ around
| others, but when there 's a musical _problem_ to be solved (e.g.
| how do we go from the chorus to the bridge), we all tend to
| retreat into our heads to work out possible ideas instead of
| playing them out loud for people and seeing what sticks.
| kerkeslager wrote:
| I don't think you're misreading the article: I think the author
| is very arrogantly extrapolating his own creative process to
| all of humanity's creative process.
| pm wrote:
| As you rightly point out, creators don't operate in total
| isolation: you're constantly taking in the world around you,
| even in solitude. However, as you've surmised at the end of
| your comment, there's a difference between sparking an idea and
| following through on its creation (though they often work in
| concert).
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