[HN Gopher] City-Builder Taken Off Steam After Fan Goes Rogue
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       City-Builder Taken Off Steam After Fan Goes Rogue
        
       Author : genedan
       Score  : 128 points
       Date   : 2023-02-19 15:20 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (kotaku.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (kotaku.com)
        
       | Rebelgecko wrote:
       | If this attorney is filing BS DMCA claims, hopefully they'll give
       | a gentle heads-up to his local bar association
        
         | anigbrowl wrote:
         | Institutional remedies which require years of process for
         | abuses that can be carried out in seconds or minutes are
         | fundamentally inadequate.
        
           | lazyasciiart wrote:
           | A bar association can remediate pretty quickly if it chooses
           | to.
        
         | kevin_thibedeau wrote:
         | Youtube takedowns aren't DMCA requests. There is no legal
         | penalty for perjury. It's just a good old fashioned mob
         | shakedown. In this case neither party is even subject to US law
         | so even more irrelevant.
        
           | roughly wrote:
           | FTA:
           | 
           | > Matters have now escalated to the point where the game
           | itself has been taken off Steam due to a DMCA request, and
           | the player is "now claiming that they own the rights to the
           | [realistic] game mode"
        
           | Rebelgecko wrote:
           | What about Steam takedowns?
        
             | yeahbutiguess wrote:
             | Steam responds to DMCA, as far as I'm aware, and doesn't
             | have a separate process.
        
           | kube-system wrote:
           | YouTube has an internal system for handing requests apart of
           | DMCA but videos may also be taken down from YouTube via a
           | DMCA request per law. "Takedown" is a word often used
           | interchangeably for a video taken down via either method.
        
       | Overtonwindow wrote:
       | Maybe a case for EFF?
        
       | swatcoder wrote:
       | This is awful.
       | 
       | But it's also why many "old media" producers and companies in the
       | entertainment and music industry have careful policies around
       | refusing to receive or acknowledge ideas and content from outside
       | the organization.
       | 
       | It's much harder for some fan-writer to pursue spurious legal
       | credit for some plot idea or script content when you maintain an
       | official policy to bin unsolicited submissions and to never
       | acknowledge work shared in public.
       | 
       | That's tricky for "new media" companies since consumers now
       | expect direct engagement with publishers, especially for "indie"
       | artists, but the old system was designed to guard against stuff
       | like this.
        
         | tumult wrote:
         | These are apparently false DMCA letters. Attribution or
         | payments aren't really relevant. According to the article, the
         | person filing the claims has no ownership of the copyright.
         | Even if they were being ripped off (which it doesn't seem like
         | they are) that wouldn't give them ownership of the copyright.
        
           | Eisenstein wrote:
           | The person is claiming rights to a version of the game not
           | yet released because they wrote a game guide about how to do
           | it and the game creators agreed to credit him in the new IP.
           | This has led to him filing the DMCA requests and initiating a
           | claim against the new product. The DMCA requests appear to be
           | retaliatory. That's my understanding from the minimal
           | information provided in the article.
           | 
           | Note however we are getting _one side_ of this story -- the
           | developers. I have no idea what is going on and it is
           | surprising how many times things swing around when both
           | parties are heard (the Doom Eternal soundtrack issues come to
           | mind)[0].
           | 
           | [0] https://medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-
           | regarding-d...
        
       | alexander-wilms wrote:
       | [flagged]
        
       | kyleyeats wrote:
       | The fan is a lawyer too. What a nightmare.
        
       | speeder wrote:
       | DMCA is such an epically shitty law. Only worse is that other
       | countries are happily copying the law too.
        
         | anigbrowl wrote:
         | Is the DMCA such a shitty law (questions about copyright in
         | general aside), or are companies in shitty in just
         | automatically responding to any DMCA allegation while refusing
         | to invest anything in transparency/process/even-handedness?
         | Basically if you are hit with a copyright or any other sort of
         | terms of service violation, you are stuck spending time and
         | energy trying to communicate with a black box.
         | 
         | Platformists say that this is necessary because transparency
         | will allow bad actors to game the system, but their solution to
         | this to make society into an oppressive panopticon; the cure is
         | worse than the disease. Further, the ignore the degree to which
         | the lack of transparency is already weaponized by bad faith
         | actors.
        
           | slowmovintarget wrote:
           | It's a crappy law. It was bought and paid for by the
           | recording industry, which should tell you something.
        
           | cld8483 wrote:
           | [dead]
        
           | Zak wrote:
           | The broken part of the notice/takedown/counter-notice process
           | is that a takedown requires prompt action, but a counter-
           | notice requires a waiting period. Removing the waiting period
           | and relying on damages to make the copyright holder whole
           | seems like a more fair process.
           | 
           | I think the anticircumvention part of the DMCA is what's
           | really shitty, but that's a tangent.
        
           | thomastjeffery wrote:
           | It's a run-time error.
           | 
           | Law is not objective ideology sitting in context-free space.
           | Law is ideology applied, and that very application made
           | explicit. A law defines the very context it exists in.
           | 
           | So we can't just objectively ignore the failure of a law
           | being applied, because a better application of that law must
           | be defined _in that law_.
           | 
           | Even if a law defines a reasonable ideological mapping
           | (expected behavior), it still needs to define a reasonable
           | _application_ of that mapping.
           | 
           | If, in practice, we see a law being abused, then the solution
           | must be to change that law such that it isn't abusable
           | anymore.
           | 
           | DMCA is an extreme failure, not in defining expected behavior
           | _per se_ , but in defining the domain for implementing
           | behavior. The way DMCA is put into practice circumvents the
           | very ideological behaviors it defined as its expectations, in
           | nearly every case it is applied to.
           | 
           | A version of DMCA that "isn't shitty" would be incapable of
           | such overt and widespread abuse. Clearly the version we have
           | does not meet that criteria.
        
           | fivre wrote:
           | Yes. In general, DMCA was written by rightsholder lawyers
           | early in the internet's lifetime to maximize their power and
           | minimize their responsibilities or damages if they abuse it.
           | The prevalence of systems like Youtube's contentID allowing
           | (often real, but also often flimsily alleged) rightsholders
           | to nigh-unilaterally capture all value on the barest
           | suggestion of unlicensed use is abysmal and calls for a
           | compulsory license system more akin to radio, but
           | rightsholders don't want that because compulsory licenses
           | don't let them negotiate megaprofit deals on their own terms.
           | 
           | The anti-circumvention provsions are also a trash fire. DRM
           | regimes are some hot consumer-hostile bullshit that have no
           | (legal) alternative because the law is behind them and
           | heavily weighted towards the needs and wants of major IP
           | holders. Modern US copyright law is designed primarily to
           | maximize profits and enforcement mechanisms for entrenched
           | interests with little regard for anything that isn't, idk,
           | Beyonce tier of actually needing that much licensing cruft.
           | 
           | There's some joke somewhere about ours being the first few
           | generations to systematically deny ourselves access to our
           | own culture because biglaw is more than happy to cut off its
           | cultural nose to spite its face so long as the money train
           | keeps flowing for the few elites that really benefit from the
           | current system. We have a walled garden that will likely
           | never fall because life is peachy if you're inside the garden
           | already, and anyone outside can't compete with the financial
           | and lobbying muscle of those inside it without operating in
           | legal gray areas at best.
        
             | flangola7 wrote:
             | One single change could have made the DMCA better: Only
             | allow copy "rights" to be assigned to real persons, and
             | grant the original artist a permanent ownership (if I take
             | a photograph I can sell or give you a license to use it,
             | but not in a way that prevents me from continuing to use
             | it). This prevents wealthy classes from financially bulling
             | regular artists out of their own works.
             | 
             | For a large production like a film, that may mean splitting
             | the rights up fractionally to thousands of different
             | people. This would prevent the kind of unilateral rent
             | seeking that squashes artistic creativity - getting a
             | thousand regular actual artists and normal people to agree
             | to sue a harmless fan project is much less likely than an
             | executive suite.
        
           | foverzar wrote:
           | If that's how companies generally operate under the
           | legislation, then yes, it's the legislation that is shitty.
           | 
           | Them's the rules. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
        
             | bluefirebrand wrote:
             | In this case, "The players" have a direct influence on what
             | becomes a part of the game, through lobbying, campaign
             | finances and whatever other more shady shit corporations
             | get up to in order to stack the deck in their favor.
             | 
             | At some point you have to realize the players are dictating
             | the game, and then yeah, hate them.
        
         | Ekaros wrote:
         | To me it isn't that horrible process.
         | 
         | You are own a small forum or site. You get DMCA takedown, you
         | take content down and are safe. Send notification to uploader.
         | They disagree. You can put stuff back up. You are not liable
         | for damages after this. And really shouldn't be expected to
         | fight.
         | 
         | Now it is up to the two other parties to fight it out. This is
         | where the system fails, because whole process is long and
         | expensive. But so is any other legal action. Maybe consider
         | fixing that reality first.
        
           | noxvilleza wrote:
           | The safe-harbor part isn't bad. What's bad is that people can
           | file an obviously bogus DMCA takedown request with zero
           | repercussions.
           | 
           | Companies that host content do basically nothing to actually
           | verify that the takedown request is even from a real person
           | (nevermind the original copyright holder).
           | 
           | A better system would be one that allows the uploader to take
           | the takedown issuer to court, and if the takedown request was
           | clearly malicious and bogus then the takedown issuer would
           | get a penalty. This approach would still allow a legitimate
           | takedown request, but not be forced the issuer into taking a
           | contested case to court.
        
             | dragonwriter wrote:
             | > The safe-harbor part isn't bad. What's bad is that people
             | can file an obviously bogus DMCA takedown request with zero
             | repercussions.
             | 
             | The takedown process is part of, and only relevant to, the
             | safe-harbor provision.
             | 
             | > Companies that host content do basically nothing to
             | actually verify that the takedown request is even from a
             | real person (nevermind the original copyright holder).
             | 
             | Because not complying with a correct-in-form takedown puts
             | them outside of the dafe harbor. The uploader can, of
             | course, challenge the false takedown (and the host can
             | decide they don't care about safe harbor, but they won't in
             | practice, nor will they normally care as much about safe
             | harbor against claims by the uploader, so _counternotice_
             | compliance may be less enthusiastic than takedown
             | compliance.)
             | 
             | > A better system would be one that allows the uploader to
             | take the takedown issuer to court
             | 
             | You can do this. A false takedown is false, damaging
             | statement of fact and actionable as such, it may also be
             | actionable as tortious interference, and a number of other
             | things.
        
               | noxvilleza wrote:
               | > Because not complying with a correct-in-form takedown
               | puts them outside of the safe harbor.
               | 
               | Yes, I'm aware - I'm saying that the fact that the law
               | allows truly unvetted takedown requests is silly - there
               | should be some method to disincentivize dodgy takedowns.
               | 
               | > You can do this ...
               | 
               | Realistically it's extremely difficult for this to occur,
               | and the costs often are extremely high (relative to the
               | returns).
        
         | devmor wrote:
         | Lets remember that the DMCA is what allows providers like
         | youtube to host content without being liable to the copyright
         | infringement of its users. The takedown provision sucks, but
         | its an essential law for the open internet to even exist.
        
           | Adraghast wrote:
           | Considering the open internet existed before DMCA did, I
           | suspect "essential" is an exaggeration.
        
             | RockRobotRock wrote:
             | Internet wasn't that fast, consumers weren't informed,
             | legislators weren't informed.
        
               | cld8483 wrote:
               | [dead]
        
           | Oxidation wrote:
           | The legal requirement to act instantly on the automatic
           | presumption of the claimants being both right and acting in
           | good faith with no evidence required isn't required to avoid
           | liability. They could have required some higher standard of
           | proof of ownership and as long as they followed the process,
           | YouTube would have the same protection.
           | 
           | The system is specifically designed to be gamed by claimants.
        
             | SideQuark wrote:
             | It works the other way: it let's a site post user content
             | without the user having to prove legal clearance for the
             | content. Without this, there would be no sites allowing
             | users to post nearly anything. In exchange for this
             | freedom, the sites have to agree to some resolution format
             | for when a copyright complaint is triggered.
             | 
             | So the system is not designed to be gamed by claimants.
             | It's designed to give legal protections to hosts of sites.
             | But this is most definitely a carveout to protect sites.
             | Without the law no one would face to liability of hosting
             | user generated content.
        
               | Oxidation wrote:
               | It's not necessarily true that a system that requires a
               | claimant to demonstrate ownership _also_ requires a user
               | to pre-emptively prove it.
               | 
               | You could have a law that provides a safe harbor
               | provision but also requires claims to be honest and
               | backed-up to "some" level of confidence.
               | 
               | The law as it stands does appear to have the possibility
               | of the penalty of perjury for intentional misuse, but,
               | apparently, a comma means that apparently this is
               | actually only applicable to a small part of the claim[1],
               | and as far as I know has never done so. I do not know if
               | this is because the law doesn't make definitions clear
               | enough to demonstrate bad-faith in court (including that
               | comma), or the legal system in general simply doesn't
               | care to enforce the law.
               | 
               | [1]: https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/51541/has-
               | anyone-bee...
        
               | catiopatio wrote:
               | The DMCA was passed in 1998.
               | 
               | You do realize we had a fully functioning internet filled
               | with user-generated content before 1998, right?
        
           | yieldcrv wrote:
           | false dilemmas are seen to _intentionally_ omit the
           | possibility of additional options and approaches
        
           | throwaway1777 wrote:
           | I thought the reason was section 230 not dmca.
        
             | ameliaquining wrote:
             | Section 230 doesn't apply to copyright infringement claims
             | (https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-
             | prelim...). Immunity from copyright infringement claims
             | relies on the DMCA's safe harbor provisions.
        
         | Oxidation wrote:
         | > DMCA mechanics just not works, seems like anybody can claim
         | anything, the service provider is just forced to remove the
         | content and in general not ask or nor the considering if the
         | claims are real.
         | 
         | It works extremely well, if you consider who the beneficiaries
         | are (who also happened to write it).
        
       | sidewndr46 wrote:
       | I don't think these developers have much of a grip on reality.
       | They stated that Valve could suffer financial harm if the game
       | stays off Steam. I don't think they realize how much money Valve
       | makes.
        
         | klondike_ wrote:
         | I think they're talking about the bad precident it sets.
        
         | yeahbutiguess wrote:
         | Valve could, hypothetically, be the target of a suit for
         | damages if they do not comply with the DMCA counter claim. Odds
         | are good that valve will just do everything it can to be by the
         | book and get out of the way.
        
         | RockRobotRock wrote:
         | Of course they have to say things like that to attract
         | attention to their cause. I doubt they're that naive.
        
         | s1artibartfast wrote:
         | What does the total income of valve have to do with it. Lost
         | profit is still harm.
        
         | eska wrote:
         | I don't think they're trying to say that he's bankrupting
         | Valve, but that he will be bankrupted by the damages he will
         | have to pay..
        
       | fsloth wrote:
       | It sounds the fan has no basis for their claim, but due to their
       | background they are able to craft professional claims. I guess
       | the lesson is always expect someone try to screw you via legal
       | pathway (if you read about history of any field this seems to be
       | a quite recurring pattern - if you have a business, you better
       | lawyer up sooner than later).
        
       | lagniappe wrote:
       | I'm curious what the legal precedent on this. If intellectual
       | property, concepts, lore, can be protected, does this person have
       | a claim here even though they didn't write the code? Is there a
       | statutory norm for percentages in cases like these?
       | 
       | This has to be terrible for small dev shops to face, I'd imagine
       | enough litigating and good projects just fold up shop unable to
       | afford their own defense cost.
        
         | ww520 wrote:
         | In general ideas are not copyrightable. Expression of ideas are
         | copyrightable.
         | 
         | Anyone can sue you for whatever reason. The court can throw the
         | case out but it's a nuisance to you.
        
       | thomastjeffery wrote:
       | My perspective: the fan is not "going rogue".
       | 
       | This story is _copyright itself_ brought to its objective
       | conclusion.
       | 
       | Everything here, the petty IP ownership claim, the expectation to
       | have that ownership literally applied, the reactionary griefing,
       | etc. is all _baked in_ to what copyright is at its very
       | foundations. This person is simply playing out the function of
       | copyright as an ideology in their interactions with the game
       | company and its business presence.
       | 
       | They feel they have the right to monopolize the product of their
       | intellectual work, because copyright says so. They feel they can
       | interrupt the sales of the game because copyright says so.
       | 
       | And most important, they _feel_ that they _should_ do these
       | things, because the very existence of copyright, and it 's
       | foundational social purpose, tell them it's in their best
       | interest, and their "best interest" is tantamount.
       | 
       | This isn't just a story about copyright, it's copyright itself
       | told as a story, just with real people as subjects.
       | 
       | So let's stop pretending. This is ugly, frivolous, unhelpful, and
       | damaging. _This_ is copyright law. This is an exposition of the
       | social malware that copyright is, was, and ever will be.
        
         | lazyasciiart wrote:
         | No, it isn't. The fact that you can make a false claim in
         | copyright law and cause damage is not an indictment of the
         | system of copyright.
        
           | stonogo wrote:
           | What evidence do you have that the claim is false?
        
       | fakedang wrote:
       | Ironically, it seems that fan would fit perfectly as a bureaucrat
       | in a Soviet Republic.
        
         | itronitron wrote:
         | This is like a reboot of "Mazes and Monsters" [0] forty years
         | later.
         | 
         | 0. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084314/
         | 
         | 1.
         | https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084314/mediaviewer/rm188310835...
        
         | 6510 wrote:
         | If his realistic game mode is as good as his real world game
         | mode they should hire him.
        
         | DonHopkins wrote:
         | Maybe he'll be defenestrated instead of disbarred.
        
       | wellthisisgreat wrote:
       | It baffles me that there are no legal repercussions for abuse of
       | DMCA / IP / copyright instruments.
       | 
       | People who do this without grounds should be punished/fines for
       | abusing the system proportionate to what they claim.
        
         | jackmott wrote:
         | [dead]
        
         | mountainb wrote:
         | You can file for a declaratory judgment and ask for attorney's
         | fees under the fee-shifting provision of the copyright act.
         | Generally, most of the quasi-DMCA programs also observe the
         | counter-notice process, which gives the plaintiff ten business
         | days to file a lawsuit, but then cancels the informal copyright
         | complaint if the time period ends without that lawsuit being
         | filed.
         | 
         | In this case, sending a counter-notice (free), filing for a
         | declaratory judgment and asking for an injunction to prevent
         | additional malicious filings would probably be the most direct
         | pathway to relief.
         | 
         | Filing bar complaints isn't likely to work all that well,
         | because it doesn't really map to the typical things that state
         | bar associations really look to pursue. The vast majority of
         | bar complaints result in nothing, and most of the ones that are
         | deemed valid result in mandatory CLE rather than more
         | substantive penalties.
        
         | yeahbutiguess wrote:
         | I mean, there is. It's perjury.
         | 
         | And the target of a false claim can sue the party who made the
         | claim for damages and attorney's fees.
        
           | Someone1234 wrote:
           | So if you're rich and have the time there may be
           | consequences, but ultimately since anyone can file a false
           | DMCA notice, there's really no assurance that you will ever
           | get your own lawyer's fees back let alone damages (even if
           | they were awarded).
           | 
           | Perjury is a pretty terrible mechanism, frankly. The whole
           | law was and is poorly conceived.
        
           | cesaref wrote:
           | I'm not so sure. It's a fact that he was involved in the
           | development of this new feature, and it's his opinion that he
           | originated the idea. Whether he did or not is for a court to
           | decide, but he's not committing perjury by believing this.
           | 
           | Now if he knows he didn't originate the idea and has brought
           | vexatious proceedings, then sure, this may be perjury, but we
           | are some way off knowing this, and i don't think we'll be in
           | a position to determine this either way.
        
             | yeahbutiguess wrote:
             | He wasn't involved, from all accounts.
        
             | SideQuark wrote:
             | Ideas aren't copyrightable. If they're not using his code
             | or art or actual copyrightable materials, then there is no
             | copyright infringement.
        
           | thfuran wrote:
           | Strictly speaking, I think the only bit that's perjury would
           | be falsely claiming to be the copyright holder (which
           | probably applies in this case, though I suppose the argument
           | could be made that they were just wrong, not lying), which
           | still leaves plenty of room for falsely claiming that
           | something infringes a copyright.
        
             | Symbiote wrote:
             | To file a DMCA complaint you must be the copyright holder,
             | or authorized to act on their behalf.
        
               | thfuran wrote:
               | Yes, and it's only that assertion that is made under
               | penalty of perjury, not the assertion that the targeted
               | work actually infringes on that copyright.
        
               | yeahbutiguess wrote:
               | So, if they aren't the copyright holder (as in this case)
               | they have committed perjury by asserting they are.
        
               | thfuran wrote:
               | Possibly not if they thought they had a valid claim, but
               | I really don't know how that would work out in practice.
        
         | Steltek wrote:
         | There are but it requires the victim to have the time, energy,
         | and of course, money to pursue it. It also needs to not be some
         | "DMCA Lite" contractual mechanism like Youtube's shitty
         | ContentID system. Only real bad faith DMCA requests need apply.
         | Any person who knowingly materially misrepresents under this
         | section--              (1) that material or activity is
         | infringing, or         (2) that material or activity was
         | removed or disabled by mistake or misidentification, shall be
         | liable for any damages, including costs and attorneys' fees,
         | incurred by the alleged infringer, by any copyright owner or
         | copyright owner's authorized licensee, or by a service
         | provider, who is injured by such misrepresentation, as the
         | result of the service provider relying upon such
         | misrepresentation in removing or disabling access to the
         | material or activity claimed to be infringing, or in replacing
         | the removed material or ceasing to disable access to it.
         | 17 U.S.C.A. SS 512
        
           | derefr wrote:
           | > It also needs to not be some "DMCA Lite" contractual
           | mechanism like Youtube's shitty ContentID system.
           | 
           | Why not? By my reading of the section you quoted, it stands
           | independently from its parent sections; anyone who makes a
           | legal claim of copyright infringement, or pursues action
           | under the principle that such a claim exists, would seemingly
           | be liable for damages if they're "knowingly materially
           | misrepresenting" the facts of that infringement, _whether or
           | not_ in the context of a DMCA takedown claim.
           | 
           | Which, I mean, obviously; that's _already_ the law, without
           | the DMCA having to say anything additionally about it. If
           | someone threatens legal action against you unless you do X,
           | and you do X, and it costs you money, and then you find out
           | it was a lie and they had no basis for their legal action --
           | then you can totally sue them for damages, and you 'll
           | _probably_ win. The DMCA just provides a very explicit basis
           | for evaluating that particular situation without referring to
           | any other bodies of potentially-conflicting case-law, so as
           | to turn that  "probably" into a "definitely."
        
             | kube-system wrote:
             | > anyone who makes _a legal claim_ of copyright
             | infringement
             | 
             | The answer is right there, my emphasis added. YouTube's
             | internal mechanisms, a la ContentID, are not processes
             | which are a part of the legal system. They're corporate
             | policies.
             | 
             | It is worth noting that this distinction is irrelevant to
             | this article, however. As this article says this _was_ a
             | DMCA claim. So any potential false claims in this case _do_
             | carry this potential penalty.
        
               | derefr wrote:
               | > The answer is right there, my emphasis added. YouTube's
               | internal mechanisms, a la ContentID, are not processes
               | which are a part of the legal system. They're corporate
               | policies.
               | 
               | No, that's not what I meant. I meant, "any claim that can
               | be interpreted in a court of law as _being equivalent to_
               | saying you _intend_ to sue for copyright infringement and
               | _have a legal basis_ to do so. "
               | 
               | In the same sense that a handshake contract is still a
               | binding contract, a regular letter telling someone that
               | you're aware they're violating your copyright -- and
               | which doesn't explicitly disclaim any interest in
               | pursuing legal action -- can still be interpreted as a
               | threat of legal action; and therefore, if proven to be
               | based on knowingly false claims, as injurious perjury.
               | 
               | To be clear, it's not _YouTube_ making this claim; it 's
               | the IP owner making the claim, when they _register_ the
               | IP in the ContentID system. Such a registration is
               | equivalent in the spirit of the law to notoriously
               | claiming 1. you _are_ the IP 's true owner, and 2. that
               | you _do not_ license use of your IP for use by others
               | without your prior consent; and that therefore 3. you
               | _have an interest_ in pursuing action against all future
               | unlicensed use of your IP, whether that action is using
               | the DMCA, within the framework of the legal system
               | outside of the DMCA specifically, or through extralegal
               | means.
               | 
               | By analogy, consider what sort of verbal claim of intent
               | to commit a crime (e.g. selling illegal drugs) is
               | necessary in a police sting to trigger an arrest. You
               | don't need to actually have committed the crime (i.e.
               | hand the undercover officer any drugs, or even prove you
               | _have_ any drugs); you merely need to make it clear that
               | you are actively working to set up the conditions
               | necessary to carry out the crime (i.e. to agree
               | /negotiate a price for the drugs you may have.)
               | 
               | In this case, a judge would basically be looking for the
               | point of "stated intent to commit perjury." Which happens
               | as soon as the ContentID for the video is registered!
        
               | kube-system wrote:
               | Yes, generally speaking legal threats which are not made
               | in good faith can cross the line into being illegal, e.g.
               | extortion. But that isn't because they violate DMCA
               | 512(f). And I think it a a bit of a stretch to say that
               | abusing ContentID is a legal threat. The number of
               | ContentID claims that result in legal action rounds to
               | zero.
               | 
               | Had anyone ever successfully sued in response to a false
               | non-DMCA copyright claim?
        
             | cratermoon wrote:
             | > you can totally sue them for damages, and you'll probably
             | win
             | 
             | Yeah, you can _totally_ sue Disney or Warner Bros if they
             | file a false infringement claim against you. You 'll
             | definitely _not_ win unless you have hundreds of thousands
             | of dollars to go up against their phalanxes of corporate
             | lawyers.
             | 
             | The DMCA doesn't take into account unequal parties.
        
               | derefr wrote:
               | In theory that is a problem; in practice, the companies
               | making _knowingly false_ ContentID claims are 99% of the
               | time small actors. Just like patent trolls are 99% of the
               | time small actors.
               | 
               | Mind you, I say _knowingly false_. Big companies
               | _unknowingly_ make false claims all the time, because
               | they don 't know what-all they actually own -- but you
               | can't sue them for that anyway, since there's no _mens
               | rea_ there.
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | brarsanmol wrote:
           | Yep! It isn't very hard to get someone punished for abusing
           | the system if you have the resources.
           | 
           | YouTube did it a few years ago [1] to a popular creator in
           | the Minecraft community who was threatening creator's with
           | Community Guideline Strikes in order to extort them for
           | money.
           | 
           | [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/10/man-agrees-
           | to-pa...
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | MichaelZuo wrote:
             | The more I hear about 'popular creators' or 'influencers'
             | the more it seems like a popular career for people with
             | character flaws that can't be easily hidden in face-to-face
             | business environments.
        
               | cld8483 wrote:
               | [dead]
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | CodeWriter23 wrote:
       | I hope instead of accepting a settlement when lawyer boy starts
       | to cry uncle they take it all the way to the end and bankrupt and
       | disbar him.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | cratermoon wrote:
       | "DMCA mechanics just not works"
        
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