[HN Gopher] An expertise acceleration experiment in Judo
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An expertise acceleration experiment in Judo
Author : jger15
Score : 64 points
Date : 2023-02-17 13:06 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (commoncog.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (commoncog.com)
| rojotek wrote:
| Very interesting. It feels like a replay of the Josh Waitzkin
| story, as he told in The Art of Learning.
| enahs-sf wrote:
| Recently got my shodan and can relate to this article and the
| merits of structured practice. Judo taught me a lot about how to
| learn a skill as it's really pedagogically laid out by Kano. The
| method for learning is spelt out in such a way that if you repeat
| the process then apply what you've learned during randori, you
| will improve.
| theptip wrote:
| It's interesting to think about what "atomic drills" would look
| like for programming. I do "dojos" with my team but it's usually
| more "group code review" or "present interesting concept".
|
| I've heard folks do mob programming on simple problems (eg
| "implement fizzbuzz in a few different paradigms"). Perhaps also
| a little time spent on advent of code would be good too?
| Everybody on the team does Day X and then we discuss and compare
| solutions?
|
| Edit to add: thinking about drills - what if we merged interviews
| and team drills, spent some time setting up a realistic work
| scenario as a drill, and added an interviewee? That way, during
| an interview the team gets to drill, say, reviewing and debugging
| a feature rollout. The interviewee gets to actually spend 2-4h in
| a realistic work simulation instead of solving LeetCode problems.
| tmtvl wrote:
| Aren't things like LeetCode and Hacker Rank supposed to be
| programming drills? Though I do like the idea of getting a
| realistic work simulation. That said isn't 4 hours a little
| short? I wouldn't be able to get much of anything done in so
| little time.
| anthomtb wrote:
| "Atomic drills", as done for sports, do not apply well to
| programming IME. The following will make a lot more sense if
| you are familiar with the book Thinking Fast and Slow
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow), or the
| research upon which that popularization is based.
|
| Atomic drills as performed for sports allow you to use System 2
| (slow, deliberate, logical) to train System 1 (fast, reactive,
| emotional). But when programming you are almost always going to
| be in System 2. Programming does not deal with instantaneous
| reactions in the same way sports does. Sure, you might react to
| a bug report (dammit, Johnson, I told you async was a bad idea
| for this!) but its not like sports, where by the time you
| consciously process input your physical reaction should have
| already occurred. To take the example from the Judo article, if
| you have formed the thought of "that guy looks about to throw
| me!" you are probably already on the ground.
|
| There may be very time limited, competitive programming events
| where you need to think so fast that atomic drills can come
| into play. I do not know of any but they could exist.
|
| But basically, when programming, at least on a professional
| basis, you are not relying on physical reactions to get the job
| done. And atomic drills are about training physical reactions.
|
| There is definitely value, lots of it, to the "realistic work
| scenarios" you describe, it is just not the same as figuring
| out the bare fundamentals of a sport and practicing until they
| are entirely subconscious.
| operator-name wrote:
| What about the "basic competencies" such as touch typing,
| learning editor shortcuts and other workflow optimisations?
| junglistguy wrote:
| As a judoka with 20 years of experience, I don't know what the
| hell this article is about.
| jperras wrote:
| Glad it wasn't just me who was baffled by the whole thing!
| maCDzP wrote:
| I practiced BJJ and our black belt advised against "drills" in
| favor of sparring.
|
| Now I train gymnastics and "drills" is basically the name of the
| game. I prefer the drills, gives a clear feeling of progression
| that I like.
| thomascgalvin wrote:
| I think the big difference is that BJJ is meant to be used
| against a resisting opponent, while gymnastics is not.
|
| You can get really good at kata by, well, doing kata, but that
| doesn't mean you're going to be able to employ your knife-hand
| block when someone's trying to punch you in the face. That
| drill lacks an important aspect of the actual practice.
|
| On the other hand, if you can pull off an armbar against a guy
| that's _really_ good at defending armbars, you can almost
| certainly pull one on a drunk guy in the Kroger 's parking lot.
|
| Gymnastics doesn't have that dynamic variable. The drill and
| the skill are largely the same, or the drill is at least a
| component of a larger skill. There's huge transfer between the
| two.
| [deleted]
| pestatije wrote:
| Oh, acceleration in the sense to learn quicker...not physical
| accel
| jperras wrote:
| I'm quite interested in the outcome of this "experiment". I wish
| the best for the OP, but I feel like things will end poorly.
|
| I've been a judoka for several years; I also started late, in my
| 30s. I train 4-5 times a week for 2+ hours a day at one of the
| best dojos in my country, and my country regularly medals in
| international events - there's no lack of high-level talent.
|
| I've sparred with literal Olympians, and receive instruction from
| one of the most highly ranked and respected judoka in the world
| who has produced Olympic medal winning athletes, in addition to
| our other instructor who was a top 9 finisher in the Olympics,
| World Cup winner, and multi-year Pan Am champion.
|
| And you know what I've found out after all that? Competitive judo
| is fucking hard. It will brutalize your mind and body in ways you
| never thought possible.
|
| And just when you think you're getting anywhere, you'll have a
| match with someone at a national/international level, and you
| feel like you're a day-one white belt getting ragdolled by
| someone having fun and going at 40% of their competition-level
| intensity.
| neilv wrote:
| > _and you feel like you 're a day-one white belt getting
| ragdolled by someone having fun and going at 40% of their
| competition-level intensity._
|
| You reminded me of a nice memory. I never trained
| competitively, nor very far, but was fortunate to see some
| people with amazing ability.
|
| As a young teen learning Aikido, one time, our great sensei (at
| a local public school auditorium that was converted to a dojo
| in the evening) had a very high-ranking person from Japan
| visit. The visitor was middle-aged and jovial, and his family
| was also there.
|
| At one point, the visiting sensei was demonstrating throws in
| the middle of the mats, and would indicate a student who was to
| attack. Then he'd do some subtle, conservation-of-movement
| whole body thing, and the student would go flying.
|
| I received the technique myself, and the students weren't just
| being polite or trying to show good rolls/breakfalls -- the
| technique was surprisingly powerful, and you were definitely
| getting thrown, whether you wanted to or not. But done gently
| enough that you wouldn't get hurt. He would smile and maybe
| give a good-natured little chuckle each time.
| KRAKRISMOTT wrote:
| Really? I have found that like most sports it all comes down to
| mass and height.
|
| Winning is an entirely different case (because resisting
| getting thrown too much results in points loss), but if you
| just want to avoid falling, just be in your upper end of your
| weight class, don't be short, and pay attention to footwork.
| You won't win any competitions this way but you won't get
| thrown easily during _tachi-waza_ either.
| ProAm wrote:
| This is extremely incorrect.
| jperras wrote:
| I honestly don't even know how to respond to most of this.
|
| You must be The Chosen One(tm) if all you need to do to avoid
| being thrown by an opponent who is more skilled than you are
| is "pay attention to footwork".
|
| > just be in your upper end of your weight class
|
| Nearly every single competitive athlete is at the upper end
| of their weight class. If you compete in -81kg, you're
| training/walking around at more or less 85kg, and cutting
| weight for competition. No one is showing up to the -81kg
| category weighing 75kg.
|
| > don't be short
|
| At the top level, weight classes are, effectively, height
| classes in disguise.
|
| There's some variation, but the distribution of heights for a
| particular weight class doesn't have a very large standard
| deviation, especially as athletes get a little older and have
| packed on as much muscle as they physically can onto their
| frame.
| edgyquant wrote:
| > Nearly every single competitive athlete is at the upper
| end of their weight class
|
| This is just not true. Lots of people gain weight in
| working out or training that they meet the low end and it's
| stigmatized to lose a few pounds so you can be at the top
| of a lower weight class.
| lilactown wrote:
| idk, I've trained with many competitive and pro athletes
| in BJJ and everyone's cutting. If winning matters, you
| take every advantage.
| edgyquant wrote:
| We're talking about winning though. It's true it's harder to
| throw a guy twice your size with good footwork (there's a
| white belt at my gym who comes from BJJ and did karate as a
| kid, nearly impossible for me to throw) but that person also
| isn't likely to get you with throws if he isn't competent
| (the aforementioned gentlemen is twice my size and has never
| thrown me or even came close.)
| [deleted]
| hummus_bae wrote:
| > I'm quite interested in the outcome of this "experiment". I
| wish the best for the OP, but I feel like things will end
| poorly.
|
| I feel like you're being a little hyperbolic. The founder of
| HackerNews says that he trains less than half of what this guy
| does, so I don't see why this guy has reason for failure any
| more than anyone else.
| serjester wrote:
| Similar experience with Brazilian Jui Jutsu. If you pick up
| these sports late, you fundamentally move differently from the
| guy that's been fighting since he was a toddler. I can tell you
| the second someone walks in if they have a wrestling
| background. Experience helps but every now and then you come
| across someone that's picks up more in a year than you do in 5.
| Just look at J Rod winning ADCC's this year as a blue belt.
| ru552 wrote:
| Jay Rod won ADCC NA trials. This is a qualifier to get into
| ADCC. He then lost in the first round of actual ADCC.
| serjester wrote:
| Correct, I should have specified. Regardless a shocking
| showing for someone so new to the sport.
| CodeAndCuffs wrote:
| Ok, so I'm not the only one who's noticed the wrestler walk?
| Like, something in their posture or their gait. Idk what it
| is, but you can just eyeball a dude and be like, "yeah he
| knows what a Granby roll is"
| CodeAndCuffs wrote:
| IMO this is one of the beautiful things about Judo/BJJ. I'm bad
| at BJJ. I know that. Yeah I can manhandle a dude my size who's
| day 1 no experience. Anything more than that is me trying my
| best and then going easy on me. I passed that purple belts
| guard but he could've stopped it if he wanred to bad enough.
|
| Then you roll with a legit seasoned black belt, and realize you
| are even worse than you thought.
|
| And it's not because of the team, or the gear, or someone
| cheating or lag in a videogame. It's just him being better.
|
| And you either let that beat you up, or you look forward to how
| high the scale goes, and keep on growing
| yodsanklai wrote:
| > Then you roll with a legit seasoned black belt, and realize
| you are even worse than you thought.
|
| That's pretty much the case with all sports. Try to go skiing
| for the first time, and compare yourself with a champion.
| Fighting sports are similar, but maybe we wrongly assume
| there's something innate with fighting. In the end, it's all
| technique! at least in a sport context.
|
| One funny thing in fighting sports, is that sometimes there
| are big thug-looking guys joining the class, they look
| intimidating and dangerous, and you realize they're just as
| harmless as any other beginner!
| yodsanklai wrote:
| I did judo for 5 years when I was a kid and a teenager
| (extremely popular in my country). Then I stopped and resumed
| in my late 20s for a few more years. I really loved that sport
| but it was too much strain on my body. Maybe I was in the wrong
| club, but for me it wasn't sustainable as an older adult,
| randoris were too intense (but the best part).
|
| I then switched to Muay Thai which _seems_ like a more violent
| sport, but it 's much easier to control the intensity, as long
| as you're in phase with your sparring partners.
| adamgordonbell wrote:
| I originally found commoncog through hacker news and his insights
| on deliberate practice (and its limits) were so helpful for me,
| that I've been following him on twitter and reading everything he
| puts out.
|
| Now, this experiment! I'm excited to learn more. I want to know
| more about the mental strength work and about constructing drills
| for softer skills.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| I did some judo back in the day. But found it demoralizing to be
| 'stiff-armed' by people who were just bigger and stronger (which
| is most people, in my case). I much preferred Japanese ju-jitsu,
| where you could kick or punch people who tried to stiff-arm you
| or stood still in randori.
|
| I think it is quite sad that judo and taekwondo have become
| olympic sports. The emphasis on winning and rules has taken away
| far more than it has given (IMHO). Also, even as a martial arts
| fan, I think both are really boring to watch. Judo is mostly 2
| guys trying not to move. Taekwondo is mostly 2 guys alternately
| bouncing up and down and hugging each other. How do you make a
| sport where people are trying to kick each other in the head
| boring? The olympics managed it.
| riku_iki wrote:
| > Judo is mostly 2 guys trying not to move.
|
| I am not judoka, but I really enjoy watching judo matches. It
| looks to me like long positional game with the goal to achieve
| dominant position and catch sub-second opportunity window to
| perform explosive winning movement.
|
| Also, I like that techniques are not brute force, but with the
| goal to put opponent off the balance, or find some angle for
| attack.
| yodsanklai wrote:
| > But found it demoralizing to be 'stiff-armed' by people who
| were just bigger and stronger
|
| This is why Judo (like most combat sports) is weight-class
| sport. That being said, technique can compensate weight
| difference to some extent.
|
| > Judo is mostly 2 guys trying not to move
|
| That's what happened when these guys have almost identical
| level. If not, one is going to move toward the tatami very
| fast.
| ProAm wrote:
| > But found it demoralizing to be 'stiff-armed' by people who
| were just bigger and stronger (which is most people, in my
| case)
|
| Why let them get a grip? It's strategy. Bigger means higher
| center of gravity, which is easier to throw.
|
| > The emphasis on winning and rules has taken away far more
| than it has given (IMHO).
|
| I completely agree. The IJF has ruined the sport of competitive
| judo. They would rather make a new rule about something being
| illegal than evolve the sport.
| tayo42 wrote:
| > Loss in Judo is more personal than in other sports. Defeat in a
| sport like tennis feels bad, but defeat in a fighting sport is
| crushing in ways that most people do not comprehend.
|
| Just this stuck out, this was one of the worst parts of high
| school wrestling, just two people, one on one more or less
| fighting. At least in football you can blame it on the team all
| together.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| That is partly a cultural thing though, isn't it? I went to the
| USA as a camp counsellor in the 80s and was really stuck by the
| difference in attitude to winning and losing between the UK and
| US. In the UK it is generally considered ok to lose at sport,
| as long as you give it your best and conduct yourself in a
| sportsman-like manner. The US attitude (on my camp, at least)
| seemed to be to win at all costs. During the final week of
| sports competition at the camp, the boys would be so psyched up
| that the losing team would almost always burst into tears. Even
| the 15 year olds. Not all what you would expect in the UK.
| FartyMcFarter wrote:
| However, if you're doing it for fun then getting thrown like a
| ragdoll is actually quite entertaining.
|
| Even the parts that hurt are memorable in a good way. I
| remember someone quite expert performing a move that made my
| body feel like it was about to split into 4 pieces, but the
| pain was not that bad and only lasted for a moment (because
| they knew when to stop).
|
| It is amazing (and humbling) to experience first hand what a
| skilled fighter can do to you in a safe context.
| tayo42 wrote:
| "doing it for fun" and "high school wrestling" don't really
| go together haha that sport churns through people with the
| way it's done.
| edgyquant wrote:
| I lose in Randori all the time (at least every week) to the
| black/brown belts at my gym and it's usually to the sound of
| laughter. Yea I want to win but it's fun pulling and grip
| fighting and the throws are beautiful and eloquent even when
| it's you getting thrown.
| dylan604 wrote:
| This is what I came to appreciate about golf as well. There's
| nobody to blame except yourself when things don't work out, and
| there's nobody else to steal credit when things go well. Even
| more so since there's no direct competitor/defender actively
| interacting with you in ways to prevent you from doing
| something
| flybrand wrote:
| > I wish such clarity of training and feedback exists in other
| skill domains.
|
| a lot of success as a leader is creating such fast feedback loops
| for a team
| Nevermark wrote:
| That sounds like a good principle in managing oneself too. Work
| in feedback for every mini-milestone into your work rhythm.
|
| Training the subconscious to do (automatically know what to do
| next, want to do it, get on it) is the self-management goal.
|
| Do something measurable, and arrange things to experience some
| meaningful response to any milestone.
|
| I may be doing this when I design and code in different rooms
| of my house. Obviously speed isn't the main point of either
| task. But my subconscious definitely registers "I completed an
| actionable part of the design" as I move from living room to my
| study to code. And vice versa.
|
| Helps that this mini-milestone context-switching "feedback" is
| a natural part of doing the work. Part of the flow.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| "My number one advice is don't focus on yourself, but focus on
| the strategy to win the points, knowing what you have today. "
|
| Steven Brust, in his books, has a recurring advice "do not think
| about what you can do; think about what needs to be done, and do
| it"
| steele wrote:
| I guess they forgot that sports should be fun.
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