[HN Gopher] Microsoft to Support Windows 11 on Apple M1 and M2 M...
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Microsoft to Support Windows 11 on Apple M1 and M2 Macs Through
Parallels
Author : ta_u
Score : 101 points
Date : 2023-02-16 20:17 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theverge.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theverge.com)
| zone411 wrote:
| Does anyone have experience running Visual Studio (not VSCode) in
| Parallels? I'd like to update my older MacBook Pro with Boot Camp
| but I'm not leaving Windows Visual Studio for a poor native Mac
| version.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| The Parallels desktop experience is shockingly well-
| accelerated. I played 1440p video from YouTube in a Microsoft
| Edge window (not in full-screen though) and didn't notice any
| appearance of dropped frames. Animations in Windows are
| smoother than they are on my 8th Gen Core i3 desktop.
|
| As for _full-blown_ Visual Studio, there is an ARM version now
| with most (but not all) workloads available. YMMV if you rely
| on those unavailable workloads or if you have x86 /x64 DLLs in
| your project, but this has improved substantially I believe
| with Windows 11 ARM now supporting 64-bit/x64 translation
| (whereas Windows 10 ARM only supported 32-bit/x86 officially
| outside of Insider previews).
| bigtex wrote:
| I use VS 2019 in Parallels with SSRS/SSIS and .Net Framework
| projects with little issues. I did have a problem with IIS
| Express breaking after each Windows update (fixed by
| uninstalled it and downloading the most recent from Msft) but
| that seems to have fixed. Now that Rider has an ARM build I use
| that for my 1 remaining .Net Framework project and it works
| fine.
| babypuncher wrote:
| Assuming you're doing .NET development, have you looked at
| JetBrains Rider?
|
| I haven't spent much time with it myself but a lot of my
| colleagues swear by it even on Windows.
| quaffapint wrote:
| This. We use Rider daily on our M1s. I used to be a big fan
| of Visual Studio, but really loving Rider and it works as
| great on the Mac as it does Windows (assuming you're not
| working with legacy NET Framework). The only bugs we ever
| really run into is around Docker on the M1s, but with the
| current releases everything is working fine.
| Sakos wrote:
| Parallels performance is _really_ good. I haven 't used VS
| specifically but it'll only choke if I'm trying demanding
| games. It's quite impressive.
| neogodless wrote:
| For some clarity, see
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/02/microsoft-officially...
|
| > These licensing problems haven't technically stopped people
| from running the Arm version of Windows on other hardware,
| including Apple Silicon Macs
|
| > Microsoft is formally blessing Parallels as a way to run the
| Professional and Enterprise versions of Windows 11 on Apple
| Silicon Macs
|
| Original source: https://support.microsoft.com/en-
| us/windows/options-for-usin...
|
| > Parallels(r) Desktop version 18 is an authorized solution
|
| In other words, you could (unofficially) do this before, but now
| it's allowed according to the terms of your license.
| jasoneckert wrote:
| > Original source: https://support.microsoft.com/en-
| us/windows/options-for-usin...
|
| It looks like Parallels has the same restrictions that you'd
| get from running Win11 ARM inside the UTM hypervisor on M1/M2
| Macs (like I currently do): No WSL/WSA and no virtualization
| based security or sandboxes.
| aseipp wrote:
| Does Hyper-V not support nested virtualization? Or maybe
| macOS doesn't support it. Because M2 chips absolutely have
| FEAT_NV2 so nested virt should work well; only ARM system
| around with it. One more win for Asahi Linux, I guess.
| viraptor wrote:
| Yeah, I was just looking for that one. It seems to be
| somehow supported in Linux
| (https://lwn.net/Articles/919851/) and Hyper-V does do
| nested virtualisation (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-
| us/virtualization/hyper-v-on-...) so... Either a delayed
| feature or yet another silly licensing thing.
| singularity2001 wrote:
| Why would you need WSL/WSA when Mac is already a *NIX?
| birdyrooster wrote:
| Furthermore WSL cannot even compile anything
| [deleted]
| bragr wrote:
| My mac using coworkers constantly complain that the *NIX
| parts of Mac are ancient and out of date and already use a
| linux VMs on top of Mac for better bash or whatever.
| atonse wrote:
| Which parts in particular? I've seen literally hundreds
| of developers use macOS (including myself) for over a
| decade either at work/ conferences/meetups and never seen
| them use a Linux VM apart from something like docker,
| etc.
| DaiPlusPlus wrote:
| Yes, macOS is a BSD - UNIX Certification and POSIX
| compliance is nice, but macOS does not behave the same way
| as Linux, which famously is not a Unix (it's even in the
| name), and POSIX compliance doesn't mean much today: even
| Windows 2000 and Windows Server 2003 were POSIX compliant
| with SFU.
|
| From what I gather from people with far more experience
| than me: if you need a "Linux-compliant" environment you're
| better-off with WSL2 than macOS.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| It's not perfect, but if you buy Parallels, it does have
| automated ARM-based setup of Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, and
| Kali. Which makes more sense anyway - then you are running 2
| VMs on your host, instead of a VM and a VM inside a VM
| (because WSL2 is just a lightweight VM).
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| > (because WSL2 is just a lightweight VM).
|
| It does use Hyper-V if I remember correctly.
| xnx wrote:
| Still an ARM version. It's a real shame it's impossible to run
| x86-64 Windows 10 via Bootcamp on M1/M2. I'm suspicious that the
| compatibility and performance of ARM Windows on Parallels is good
| enough to use full time. All other laptop hardware I've used is
| frustratingly crappy compared to MacBooks.
| lwkl wrote:
| x86 software runs fine on Windows for ARM nowadays. I've been
| using it on Parallels for the last year and it has been working
| great (I don't do any high performance stuff on Windows
| though).
| dividedbyzero wrote:
| Could that also work for to old-ish software, like a decade
| old or so, or does this require applications to be optimized
| or compiled for it? And is this something Parallels is
| required for or could one test that without buying Parallels?
| DenisM wrote:
| To clarify - you're using an ARM MacBook to run MacOS, which
| runs Parallels, which runs ARM Windows, which executes x86
| Windows applications?
| zamadatix wrote:
| The virtualization features are at the hardware level,
| macOS and Parallels are just apps that configure it to run.
| Really it's just "I'm running a Windows VM and it's
| translating x86 apps to run on the ARM CPU".
|
| Works great, particularly for 32 bit x86 apps it's a lot
| faster than running Crossover.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| That's exactly what some people do. And it's even possible
| to run older games that way. The x86-on-ARM Windows thingy
| is no Rosetta, but it's pretty usable.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| Just in case you or someone else didn't know; "Bootcamp" is a
| tool that allows anyone to set up dual-boot on their Mac
| without having to touch the bootloader or hunt for drivers.
| It's not an emulation or virtualization solution, which is why
| it wouldn't work with x86 Windows.
| xnx wrote:
| I know it's impossible, it's just a bummer that I can only
| pick 2 from: quality Macbook hardware, x86 Windows, native
| performance.
| jborean93 wrote:
| It's an ARM CPU, why would it run x86-64 natively through
| Bootcamp?
| zsims wrote:
| You're worried about performance but want x86 emulation on ARM?
| zozbot234 wrote:
| There's no Bootcamp on M1/M2 hardware as of yet. But the Asahi
| folks have a standard UEFI implementation, so it would be
| possible to run ARM64 Windows if drivers for the Apple silicon
| were available.
| elforce002 wrote:
| Why would I do that? This is an honest question. I recently
| bought a Mac Mini coming from MSFT and I don't miss windows at
| all. I don't have to fight with it anymore when programming and
| testing things.
| bigtex wrote:
| I have moved all my development to my Mac (C#, Sql Server)
| except I need Visual Studio for .Net Framework, SSIS and SSRS
| projects. Visual Studio for Windows ARM recently came out but
| doesn't work with most extensions, so I still use VS 2019.
| jan_Inkepa wrote:
| some software is windows only, especially most games (if not by
| number, then by feeling if you're in the pc gaming world).
| zuhsetaqi wrote:
| Testing cross platform developed apps would be an other reason
| stuart78 wrote:
| There are plenty of apps or features that remain Windows
| exclusive. In Microsoft's office suite, things like PowerBI
| only offer Windows desktop apps. And even within apps like
| Powerpoint there are features that don't exist in the Mac
| version (like grids). There are certainly equivalent or better
| alternatives to both of these examples available on Mac, but if
| your company uses these products Parallels could be a better
| alternative to having a second PC.
| zerocrates wrote:
| I haven't really loved Mac OS in a while, so I could see you
| could want the very nice Mac hardware but a different operating
| system. I never really did Windows-on-Mac much, besides some
| very occasional Boot Camp usage, but I did run Linux on a
| couple different Mac laptops for several years.
|
| I don't think it really makes much sense now though... no
| particularly good reason not to just get a Dell XPS or
| something in that ballpark for your Linux or Windows needs and
| avoid the hassle.
|
| The sheer absurdity of running Linux tools on WSL inside
| Parallels inside a Mac host might be worth something, too. (Or
| actually, can you even do that, with two levels of
| virtualization? I seem to remember this is an issue, maybe
| specifically on the new ARM chips.)
| dustedcodes wrote:
| It's not for you, it's a way for Microsoft employees and
| Windows fanboys finally being officially able to buy good
| hardware and run Windows on it. I can't imagine how awful it
| must be for all those Windows bros to see everyone else work on
| amazing M2 hardware whilst they are trodding behind on the shit
| show that the entire Surface brand is.
| simongr3dal wrote:
| I guess that means there's no hope that we will ever see Windows
| running natively on Apple Silicon.
| fragmede wrote:
| Maybe. There are ARM builds of windows, we just need to drivers
| for Apple Silicon.
|
| https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windowsins...
| zamadatix wrote:
| The ARM builds are precisely what Parallels is using here.
| The only piece left in doubt is Microsoft will bother to make
| drivers and Apple has already said they aren't going to do it
| via bootcamp this time.
| cecida wrote:
| I'd like that. I'm a big fan of the whole design and build of
| the Macbook Pro, but macOS is starting to feel very dated.
| randomopining wrote:
| What about it is dated? and is windows better?
| cecida wrote:
| That's a good question, and I cannot really give you a
| coherent answer tbh. I just find Windows to feel more
| modern. I suppose a few examples are:
|
| Snap/Windows Management in macOS is a pain.
|
| Using Brew as a package manager isn't exactly a wonderful
| experience.
|
| The taskbar feels pretty ugly and dated - that little dot,
| and then having both the top and bottom bar in play just
| feels outdated.
|
| Even having to use Parallels is a bit of a pain - build a
| hypervisor into the OS.
|
| I'm the furthest thing from a designer, and I understand
| that Apple went with a different UI paradigm. It's just
| starting to feel a bit left behind. It's still my daily
| driver though.
| ntonozzi wrote:
| I agree MacOS feels dated, some examples: The Windows
| window manager is far better than the MacOS equivalent, the
| UI is higher quality, more consistent and more
| discoverable, and PowerShell is better than zsh.
| PartiallyTyped wrote:
| > and PowerShell is better than zsh.
|
| Could you elaborate?
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| I guess it depends on what one is looking for, because to
| me Windows feels the most dated of any desktop
| environment mainly due to its poor implementation of
| virtual desktops.
|
| Even the version of Spaces from OS X 10.5 Leopard (circa
| 2007) is better, and various *nix DEs had better virtual
| desktops since the mid-late 90s onward. That makes
| Windows harder to use for me than lack of snapping on
| macOS does, particularly with how Windows makes me feel
| like I need to maximize most windows which drives a
| greater need for good virtual desktops.
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| What I miss most in macOS is the raw graphics performance
| of Windows, even for day-to-day computing. Probably a
| combo of available graphics cards, drivers, and how the
| OS treats graphics performance. Finder is def getting a
| bit creaky, but I've never hit limitations using it.
|
| As for PSH: use fish and don't look back. :)
| reaperducer wrote:
| _PowerShell is better than zsh._ brew
| install --cask powershell
| anemoknee wrote:
| TIL, wild.
| zuhsetaqi wrote:
| > the UI is higher quality, more consistent and more
| discoverable
|
| The last thing that can be said about Windows is
| consistency
|
| https://ntdotdev.wordpress.com/2021/02/06/state-of-the-
| windo...
| alpaca128 wrote:
| Not being able to snap/tile windows to a screen border or
| corner without third-party software is just baffling, and
| the official tiling method only supports two windows side
| by side in some weird fullscreen mode. Back when Windows
| introduced this feature I made the jump from a 256MB RAM
| computer to a brand new laptop with 2 whole CPU cores. It's
| time Apple caught up to every other desktop OS in this
| regard.
|
| > is windows better?
|
| In terms of UI yes, provided you don't need a functioning
| search feature. Windows 10 also finally added support for
| virtual desktops and scrolling in unfocused windows. Though
| unfortunately Windows 10 was such an unpleasant experience
| for me overall that I don't see myself using it in the
| foreseeable future.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| Magnet works fine, if Apple replicated the functionality
| people would be complaining that they killed off a
| successful third party app. Can't please everybody.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Genuinely wonder what took this long. Was it a new decision
| around legal/strategy, just a low priority, or something
| technical that wasn't built by Parallels/Microsoft till now?
| johnmaguire wrote:
| I am confused because I have been using Windows 11 through
| Parallels for probably 6 months. Parallels automatically
| downloaded the ISO for me and everything.
| zamadatix wrote:
| You were technically breaking the Windows 11 EULA and not
| officially supported while doing that but nobody really
| cared.
| lwkl wrote:
| The rumor is that it's because Microsoft has an exclusivity
| deal with Qualcomm [1].
|
| [1]: https://www.xda-developers.com/qualcomm-exclusivity-deal-
| mic...
| lostmsu wrote:
| Through Parallels.
| kristianp wrote:
| The original source[1] only says it's authorised through
| parallels, not how to do it. Will parallels soon take you to
| microsoft link that requires payment I wonder?
|
| [1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-
| usin...
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| Parallels now automatically downloads Windows 11 and sets it up
| for you (including skipping Microsoft account), just tried
| today. However, it is not an activated Windows install, and it
| will take you to the Store asking you to purchase a Windows 11
| Pro license for $199, but you can use it unactivated with the
| typical non-activated Windows restrictions. According to
| internet commentators, Windows 11 Pro x86/x64 retail keys are
| now acceptable whereas they previously were not, so if you have
| any of those lying around (or a Windows 10, or 8.1, or 7 Pro
| key as they are often grandfathered-in), they'll do the trick.
|
| Which, if you are buying Windows for this purpose, I'd strongly
| recommend just buying a retail package. If you buy in the
| Microsoft Store, it will be tied to your Microsoft Account
| which isn't really desirable, as retail keys are transferrable
| between computers [1] whereas OEM keys and MSA-purchased keys
| aren't.
|
| [1] Many people don't know this - don't buy the OEM version of
| Windows for $20 cheaper. It will be tied to your unique
| hardware - but retail keys won't. Upgrade your workstation
| three years from now? If you have a retail key, you can wipe
| Windows from your old PC and activate on the new one,
| completely within the license, with no need to purchase again.
| mvac wrote:
| Technically you can use any Windows 11 licence key (or even Win
| 10) to activate Windows 11 Arm in Parallels. Have been using it
| since last december and so far it has been much better experience
| than with any Windows PC...
| jmclnx wrote:
| This is good new to people I know at work, for me since at work I
| use Linux it is a non-issue.
|
| People on MACs need to have 1 proprietary application that is
| only partially works on MACs (& Linux). So that will make the MAC
| people happy. On Linux I have a Windows VM in case I need to use
| that feature.
| robertoandred wrote:
| Media Access Control?
| layer8 wrote:
| Misguided Acronym Concoction
| Toutouxc wrote:
| Usually writing Macs as MACs is almost a shibboleth among
| people who have very strong negative feelings towards the
| platform for some reason. (MAC's is the ultimate misspelling)
|
| So it's interesting to see a person who's apparently neutral
| write it that way.
| 9dev wrote:
| Used in that way, I hate it almost as much as people
| writing Micro$oft and similar. It just feels so darn
| childish, it makes me dismiss their opinion altogether.
| [deleted]
| mattcantstop wrote:
| I am at a weird spot right now, where I have teenagers who want
| to play games that are on Windows, but am not wanting to do that
| through emulation like Parallels. But I am also not willing to
| purchase a Windows machine as my primary machine. So it leaves me
| not moving to Apple Silicon and just keeping my old Mac despite
| wanting to upgrade.
| cloudking wrote:
| Have you looked at GeForce Now as an option?
| manmal wrote:
| Some games work great through Parallels, like Left4Dead 2.
| Others work via CrossOver. But support is not that broad
| unfortunately. I hope things improve vastly once Asahi Linux
| can run Proton - Valve has added Linux support to so many games
| already (for the Steam Deck).
| ozarker wrote:
| ARM support will be a hurdle for those games even with
| proton.
| jraph wrote:
| wine, on macOS or on a linux dual boot on your current Mac
| (with Proton), maybe?
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