[HN Gopher] I'm starting a zero waste grocery delivery service i...
___________________________________________________________________
I'm starting a zero waste grocery delivery service in NYC. Anybody
interested?
Author : richhomiepran
Score : 130 points
Date : 2023-02-16 16:24 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (zerowastenyc.shop)
(TXT) w3m dump (zerowastenyc.shop)
| BlackCherry wrote:
| NYC apartment's lack of square footage is going to make it super
| inconvenient to store the containers as you await the next
| delivery and container pickup.
| bberenberg wrote:
| There's a "zero waste" store here in Bushwick. Everything you buy
| is in giant barrels / tubs. However, if you look into it, they
| actually source everything in relatively small bags that they
| break down and dump into large tubs. It's a problem earlier in
| the supply chain. How do you plan to address this?
| pastor_bob wrote:
| What you're saying is the real innovation is creating a zero
| waste supply chain. Would require a lot of sanitization, which
| probably offsets the benefit of no plastic.
| dieortin wrote:
| It doesn't need to be zero waste, increasing the volume of
| the containers is already a big reduction of packaging.
| grandmczeb wrote:
| I met the owners of a store like this in the Bay Area. Their
| backyard is filled with left over plastic containers because
| they're embarrassed to be seen taking anything to the dump.
| [deleted]
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| Similarly I used to work overnight in a strip mall next door
| to a PC/e-waste "recycling" place. Out back in the alley was
| just a massive pile of obsolete 90s/early 2000s PCs that
| hadn't been broken down or stripped of e-waste in any way.
| I'd go rummaging through it sometimes looking for a usable
| Pentium 3 processor and some ram. Maybe a hard disk that
| wasn't roached. Built a bunch of fun little Linux computers
| with those.
|
| Anyway, the owner went to jail for something or other
| unrelated. I'm sure all that stuff went to the landfill.
| rapnie wrote:
| Shouldn't e-waste be highly profitable to recycle with that
| high concentration of metals? Urban mining at our doorstep
| and not halfway across the globe and a mile underground. Is
| the separation of all the materials inherently unprofitable
| or aren't the upfront investments to get things going just
| never made?
| bragr wrote:
| >Shouldn't e-waste be highly profitable to recycle with
| that high concentration of metals?
|
| Based on some videos of people attempting DIY metal
| extraction from e-waste, no not really. Sure there's
| valuable metal there, but only thin films of it, and
| that's before you get to the extraction problem. Sure you
| can dissolve the metals off the boards with acid, but
| then you've got a solution of mixed dissolved metals
| you've got to process back into different pure metals,
| and deal with all the chemical waste. A gram of copper is
| ~$0.01 according to a quick search so it's pretty
| difficult to get any profit.
|
| edit: don't know what the first metal prices site found I
| was smoking, but accurate prices make the case even more.
| metadat wrote:
| Small correction: Copper is currently around $9 USD/Kg.
| CameronNemo wrote:
| Which is just about $0.01/gram, as the commenter stated.
| metadat wrote:
| Parent originally stated $4/gram. Perhaps the post was
| amended without notation.
| bragr wrote:
| I literally added a whole "edited: ..." line to the end
| when I updated it.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > I'm sure all that stuff went to the landfill.
|
| I assume almost everything I "recycle" goes to landfill
| too. It just happened to go to a landfill in China before
| they stopped accepting it.
| nine_k wrote:
| Paper, glass, and metals, in larger chunks, likely get
| recycled, because it's economically sensible.
|
| Anything more complicated, especially tightly bound
| together, is likely cheaper to dump on a landfill. Which
| I think is sort of fine for non-toxic, non-volatile
| stuff.
| libraryatnight wrote:
| Pretty much, I recall:
| https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/4/20992240/e-waste-
| recyclin...
|
| whenever recycling e-waste comes up.
| asdajksah2123 wrote:
| An owner of a store which gets the stuff in plastic should
| also be better at recycling the plastic. Since the plastic
| bags are also going to a few consumers, they could also
| insist they're more recyclable and/or reusable.
| munk-a wrote:
| This is why I've always appreciated Costco - they
| substituted out shopping bags for cardboard pallet cases.
| So the waste that walks in through their front door walks
| out with customers and is put to a productive use. Rather
| than being performative and de-packaging items before a
| customer sees them they actually do an effective job at
| reducing waste by reusing items that would otherwise just
| go straight to recycling.
| cobertos wrote:
| I volunteered at a music festival once that had a large
| recycling program. We piled all the trash into large piles
| but weren't given instructions on what to do with the
| recycling.
|
| In the end, time was tight. They told us to mix it all
| together, and their tractors that hauled it were also putting
| it all in the same place, to dump in a landfill.
| glitchc wrote:
| "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
| whatshisface wrote:
| Wouldn't a yard full of plastic containers be... more
| embarrassing?
| grandmczeb wrote:
| You can't see it from the street so it's a "secret." Though
| to be honest I don't think it's a rational decision - not a
| psychologist but pretty sure there's some mental health
| issues going on.
| engineer_22 wrote:
| People are funny! Thanks for sharing :)
| [deleted]
| biggoodwolf wrote:
| Typical narcissistic image keeping
| dfxm12 wrote:
| Relative to what? The giant barrels? The average amount a
| customer takes? Something else?
| richhomiepran wrote:
| I believe you are referring to Precycle?
| fourandtwenty wrote:
| Interesting, I didn't know this. Somewhere I can find more
| info?
| _rs wrote:
| Could you still answer his question?
| dshoemaker wrote:
| fourandtwenty isn't the OP.
| _rs wrote:
| Ah, I saw a green username and did not read carefully.
| Apologies to them
| lemax wrote:
| Individual actions like these feel good for people, but don't
| really make much headway on the broader problems. For example
| if you are vegan, you are not directly supporting the factory
| farming of animal products, but meanwhile people will continue
| buying those products. I would venture to guess that
| inconvenient legislations like plastic straw or plastic bag
| bans have far more powerful outcomes than these sort of
| individual lifestyle efforts.
| etrautmann wrote:
| that's pretty bad, but is it 25 lbs of flour or rice or
| standard sized small consumer bags? The latter would be
| somewhat farcical, although I supposed you could argue that
| there's a chicken and egg problem and that once a supplier
| offers bulk sales they can trivially switch.
| z3c0 wrote:
| By the sound of it, the plastic waste (that has already been
| manufactured) is being concentrated into the responsibility of
| a centralized entity, instead of dispersed further down the
| supply chain, where it will be more difficult to recover. I
| don't really see this as a problem.
| barbazoo wrote:
| I don't have evidence yet that ours is doing that but I'm
| sceptical even of the barrels.
| q1w2 wrote:
| Is it going to be cost competitive? Grocery delivery is already
| stupidly over-priced.
| ghaff wrote:
| Really? Around where I live Peapod, for example, is <$10. I
| don't use it but, if I otherwise liked it, that doesn't seem
| unreasonable for someone to pick your order and deliver it to
| you.
| frenchman99 wrote:
| Don't know about the US, but I live in a 300K inhabitants
| city in France, we fetch everything on a bicycle and have
| heavier items delivered for 10EUR which is much cheaper than
| having our own car, factoring in maintenance, insurance, etc.
| Might soon get a cargo bicycle to be able to fetch heavier
| things myself without relying on delivery service.
| cody_coconuts wrote:
| Which areas will you deliver to?
| richhomiepran wrote:
| All boroughs of Manhattan I suppose?
| lazzlazzlazz wrote:
| The way I'm interpreting this is "yet another grocery delivery
| service in NYC, but the differentiator is zero waste". Which is
| not a great differentiator. Good luck.
| mritchie712 wrote:
| Seems like a pretty good differentiator to me. Most products
| differentiate on speed or cost. Amazon, Uber, and DoorDash are
| going to crush you on those. I doubt any of them will touch
| zero waste.
| denis2022 wrote:
| [dead]
| lemax wrote:
| I've seen implementations of this trend in Switzerland at natural
| markets - I wouldn't exactly call it "zero waste", but some shops
| are catering to customers who aspire to be more environmentally
| conscious. For example, products that keep well, e.g. olive oil,
| liquid shampoo and conditioner are available in taps, and
| customers can bring their mason jars or the like. Paper or
| compostable bags for the produce. Grains / nuts available by
| weight like in old school co-op groceries.
|
| I don't think zero waste is feasible for the entire product mix,
| and we can always wonder what's happening higher up in the supply
| chain, but some customers definitely enjoy dealing with less
| waste and will prefer to shop in a store that facilitates this.
| evancharles wrote:
| You're going to get a ton of skepticism, but I think it's
| possible in a dense area to find enough people who have enough
| overlap in the staples they consume who are willing to pay for
| this. I would try to focus on quality first, proving that you can
| get super high customer retention and unit margin, before trying
| to be cost-competitive with a larger grocer.
| kritiko wrote:
| If it's at all convenient, I would highly recommend joining the
| Park Slope Food Coop to see the ins and outs of a grocery
| business at scale. Members are also owners and workers, so you
| could get a pretty close look at financial statements in addition
| to seeing how the food comes in from distributors before it gets
| to the shelf.
|
| Even with a focus on sustainability and use of bulk bins for some
| products, there's a bunch of waste. I am very skeptical that you
| could truly get to "zero waste."
|
| https://www.foodcoop.com/join/
| mvac wrote:
| For some reason I always see zero waste stores to open with lot
| of fanfare and then close down after a few months. Even in hip
| areas, where demand for hipster cafes and vegan restarants seems
| to be infinite.
|
| Not sure why, thought. Maybe zero waste store is one of those
| ideas that seem so nice, but don't work at all in reality?
| logicalmonster wrote:
| A small suggestion for OP. This sounds pretty interesting, but
| I'm left with many practical questions. Your site should be
| focused on trying to explain this concept and clarify exactly
| what you mean by zero waste.
|
| I would assume that a delivery driver isn't going to lug a giant
| barrel of beans up to some 3rd floor walk up, tell you to hold
| out your hands, dip a scoop into the barrel, and tell you to say
| when you've got enough beans, but that's literally how "zero
| waste" might possibly be interpreted literally.
|
| How does this actually work in practice if I wanted some of dem
| beans? What do they come wrapped in? Is it safe? How do you
| handle messy foods?
| richhomiepran wrote:
| Hmm, I would give you a stainless steel maison jar of beans of
| a standard size. Once you're done with the beans, I'll come
| collect the jar. The same goes for messy foods.
| logicalmonster wrote:
| Jars sound like a great idea, but bring up some more
| practical questions.
|
| When reusing jars, I assume they would have to be washed
| fairly well. Do you have a fancy industrial strength
| dishwasher to quickly do this to ensure safety?
|
| And we all know that the best milk comes in jugs, but I'm
| willing to switch to jars if the environmental impact is
| favorable, but I have no idea. How does it affect the
| environment to make a plastic bag/jug versus making and
| washing a jar? If you can present some hard data that this
| difference of yours actually is good for the Earth, I think
| that would help compel people to more strongly consider it.
|
| It's an interesting idea of course, just with many practical
| details that I'd want to know about before signing up.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| I've had negative experiences with zero waste stores. The product
| is often just sitting there for months in those big transparent
| containers getting oxidized. And there is always sticker shock.
|
| I'm all for reducing waste, but zero waste takes things too far.
| xyzelement wrote:
| Yup. All that _waste_ exists for a reason. I suspect when all
| is said and done, what seems wasteful is the most efficient.
| memco wrote:
| Best of luck!
|
| How will weights and measures factor in to pricing? Can orders be
| placed for arbitrary quantities or will there be fixed sizing?
|
| How will you tackle container returns? Amazon fresh used to use
| high quality insulated bags you were supposed to return on next
| delivery, but eventually they switched to a cardboard box with
| some insulated bubble wrap that was all disposable. Not sure why
| exactly, but I imagine that there's more overhead of logistics
| and cost for materials. Will the smaller scale make that easier
| for you to manage?
| richhomiepran wrote:
| Short answer is "I don't know" unfortunately. I'm working on
| figuring all of that out. I would assume there'd be fixed
| sizing. For the returns, I will collect the containers from the
| front door or a bin at the front desk and sanitize them at a
| commercial kitchen and return them to the food producer.
| [deleted]
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Do you have any plans to also handle pickup of compost? The
| people who want zero-waste might also be interested in composting
| their odds and ends, but I imagine most NYCers have no place to
| put compost they generate. You could collect it during each
| delivery and then sell it to local farmers, who use it to grow
| the products people buy. Call it "the green circle" or something.
| Make your logo a green circle with a leaf in it. Diversifies the
| business model, provides more reason for people to sign up.
|
| Now that I think of it more, this is kind of a fortuitous combo.
| If you get goods in cardboard, keep the cardboard for composting.
| Keep the compost outside in a dumpster or bins, keep your goods
| inside in a building. Pay a kid medium wage to cut up the
| cardboard and mix the compost bins. When it's ready, sell it as a
| green alternative to chemical fertilizers.
| kritiko wrote:
| The department of sanitation is expanding composting to the
| entire city by 2024.
| https://www.nyc.gov/assets/dsny/site/services/food-scraps-an...
| halfmatthalfcat wrote:
| I composted for years in NYC and the City has many dropoff
| sites available.
|
| https://www.nyc.gov/assets/dsny/site/services/food-scraps-an...
| fortylove wrote:
| Not in NYC, but I wish you the best of luck. Getting ideas like
| this tried out and tested is important to proving there is a
| better way to act as responsible stewards. I hope it succeeds!
| xyzelement wrote:
| Product manager here - I suspect that zero waste is a
| weak/negative value proposition.
|
| All of the "waste" costs someone something. Companies pay to make
| those bottles, boxes, etc.
|
| The reason they do it is because it's _still_ cheaper and more
| efficient than the alternative. Even at their scale.
|
| So how do you make it valuable at _your_ scale? How much of a
| premium are your customers going to pay to avoid a milk jug?
| michaelt wrote:
| _> The reason they do it is because it 's still cheaper and
| more efficient than the alternative._
|
| There's actually a different reason they don't do it: Reusable
| containers make for a difficult business plan, because it's the
| reverse of a new-customer discount if you have to charge for
| the reusable container.
|
| This makes it tough to, for example, start a takeaway using
| reusable stainless steel containers.
| asdff wrote:
| Why not offer it for free? My grocery store gave me free
| reusable bags when I signed up with their rewards program.
| They give me a few dozen dollars off a month in savings, I
| reward them by doing the bulk of my grocery buying there. We
| all win still.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| Perhaps a lot. I live in Boulder and a number of wealthy moms
| in my social group are all into zero waste, or minimizing waste
| to the point where they will pay $10-15/gallon for milk. It
| also helps to justify the price that the milk is sourced
| locally, because these people are usually cognizant of the
| carbon footprint from shipping as well.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Assuming those wealthy Boulder moms live in detached single
| family homes with individual cars, I wonder how much
| additional carbon footprint of that lifestyle is compared to
| living in an apartment.
|
| I suspect it is orders of magnitude more than local milk in
| zero waste packaging compared to what you get at Costco.
| [deleted]
| oh_sigh wrote:
| A lot of Boulder homes are relatively small because they
| were built in the 40s-60s for a population with much more
| modest means. So it isn't rare to see millionaires living
| in a 1300 SQ ft ranch style home, and driving EVs or riding
| bakfiets style bikes around toting kids.
|
| So, probably still more carbon intensive than city
| dwellers, but not necessarily as bad as other forms of
| suburban lifestyles, and that doesn't mean their efforts
| are for naught.
| bscphil wrote:
| > I suspect that zero waste is a weak/negative value
| proposition.
|
| This is probably because the social / environmental cost of
| leaving all the trash you create in a landfill forever is an
| externality - you don't pay for it with your milk cartons and
| individually plastic wrapped potatoes. One way of thinking
| about the environmentalist movement is that it's an
| individualistic effort to price in one's own externalities,
| since American society more broadly is unable or unwilling to
| do this.
|
| Of course broadly these efforts aren't going to solve the waste
| problem - if they could, manufacturers would not have the
| incentive to sell products this way - but there will always be
| a niche market for this sort of thing.
| bradleyjg wrote:
| _One way of thinking about the environmentalist movement is
| that it 's an individualistic effort to price in one's own
| externalities, since American society more broadly is unable
| or unwilling to do this._
|
| Nah. If this was what was going on we'd expect to see a lot
| more substitutions, offsets, and so on.
|
| Instead the focus seems to be on personal virtue vis-a-vis
| the environment and particularly public demonstrations of
| personal virtue, rather than in maximizing effectiveness.
|
| For example, why is residential rooftop solar being built out
| in the Pacific Northwest?
| rcme wrote:
| Are landfills really an externality? You pay for them through
| property taxes. They're regulated not to leech harmful
| chemicals into the environment. Their harmful emissions, like
| methane, generally come from food waste, which has nothing to
| do with the landfill itself.
| bravo22 wrote:
| There is no limit on the waste, and therefore no market. It
| is an arbitrary price placed by politicians. Imagine if oil
| prices were not dicated by a market and a by a production
| cartel rather by politicans in the US.
| bscphil wrote:
| The property tax you pay doesn't cover the externalities of
| the landfill - it pays for trash pickup and (roughly)
| opportunity cost for the land being used as landfill, as
| well as landfill maintenance required by regulations.
|
| Eventually, the rate of semi-permanent waste creation by
| humans on Earth will have to equilibrate with the rate at
| which semi-permanent waste is absorbed by the environment.
| Otherwise, the amount of waste would continue to increase
| indefinitely. We can certainly go a _very_ long time at our
| current rate of waste creation, which is why the costs to
| future-people isn 't included in the price. But those costs
| are real, and potentially include making sure chemical
| leeching doesn't occur over hundreds or thousands of years,
| not just decades.
| asdajksah2123 wrote:
| There is no signaling mechanism to indicate their cost to
| the consumer.
|
| Your entire block might switch to zero waste and would
| likely see no reduction in their property taxes (any
| reduction would probably simply reduce the local
| government's deficit).
| rcme wrote:
| Local governments don't generally run deficits (in the
| US). And there definitely is a price signaling mechanism.
| If trash becomes more expensive to dispose of, that cost
| is passed on to consumers via higher taxes.
| akira2501 wrote:
| > There is no signaling mechanism to indicate their cost
| to the consumer.
|
| Where is this true? In every jurisdiction I've ever lived
| in trash service has been private and I've had to pay for
| it myself. The service fee is based on volume of trash
| container. I've always had direct feedback on trash
| disposal costs.
| xyzelement wrote:
| I totally get that. The question is - will enough people give
| a shit / buy in.
| asdffdsa wrote:
| I am willing to pay a decent markup (2x the cost)
| selectodude wrote:
| I will gladly pour a gallon of milk into a bucket for you
| $4.00. Tell me when and where.
| positr0n wrote:
| Surely you could make a far greater environment impact by
| donating $50 to a conservation or carbon credit charity
| instead of spending $100 on $50 worth of groceries that have
| less plastic in their supply chain.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| None of these will reduce the amount of plastic going into
| the environment. There is no "offsetting" plastic.
| richhomiepran wrote:
| I need to figure this out sir.
| asdajksah2123 wrote:
| > The reason they do it is because it's still cheaper and more
| efficient than the alternative. Even at their scale.
|
| That's not the only reason. Consumer convenience can also be a
| factor why things are done in a certain way.
|
| Status quo bias is also huge, especially since consumers will
| be more difficult to change than a handful of companies.
|
| Also, new technology, such as cheaper and more accurate
| sensors, scales, printers, anti-theft tech, etc. may make
| something more feasible when it might not have been even a few
| months ago.
|
| Finally, consumer preference and education are also important.
| Zero waste buying, for example, would require consumers to (a)
| recognize there is massive waste in their lives, (b) recognize
| alternative ways are possible, (c) be willing to change to the
| alternative way, which they might resist even if it's better.
| For most companies, the cost/risk of this education may not be
| worth it. But it's possible that there is far greater awareness
| among consumers about (a) and (b) today than ever before, so
| the costs are now feasible.
| nine_k wrote:
| It just does not work equally well with every product, but it
| works with some.
|
| I keep seeing farmers selling stuff like apples, potatoes, etc
| on greenmarkets from large reusable plasic or wooden crates. If
| I bring my own bags, I produce no packaging waste.
|
| It's a bit harder with things like milk, but should be doable
| using large multi-use cans and pouring into customer's bottle.
|
| Likely packaging waste can be greatly reduced, if not
| eliminated completely, for things like bread, cookies /
| crackers / etc, eggs, sausages, butter, etc. Just use large
| reusable / recyclable containers, and parcel out the amounts
| needed for a customer.
|
| It of course is not going to work well with stuff that requires
| special packaging at the point of production, like carbonated
| drinks.
|
| The biggest problem is the lack if self-service in much if
| this; a salesperson should measure, weigh, cut or otherwise
| dispense things, and this is slower than scanning bar codes.
| Pre-packaged goods even allow self-checkout.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| Plenty of stores selling in bulk allow self-service. Customer
| weights their own container, prints a barcode.
| asdff wrote:
| Ironically, we used to literally do it with milk a generation
| or two ago. You'd get milk in glass bottles, drink it, leave
| it outside in the evening, bring in more milk in the morning
| in reused glass bottles, and the bill is in the mail. Today
| with expensive glass bottled milks, they sometimes still
| offer a few cents redemption if you return the empty bottles
| to the store.
| 6_6_6 wrote:
| zero waste lol
| burnished wrote:
| As I understand it groceries are high volume and low margin and
| the logistics are nightmarish (getting the wrong stuff at the
| wrong time, left holding the bag if something goes bad) - whats
| your plan for dealing with that?
|
| On that note - is reusable containers going to make your endeavor
| cheaper and easier or more costly? What does a cheap gallon of
| milk in your area cost vs what you think you'll sell at? Curious
| if you'll compete on price alone or if your target audience are
| the people irritated by plastic use and willing to pay on that.
|
| How are you sourcing? Mostly I want to know whether you'll be
| able to get product that itself isnt coming in disposable
| packaging.
|
| Neat project, I wish you luck!
| itronitron wrote:
| I think a better start would be to not sell any food that is
| delivered to either you or the customer in plastic packaging.
|
| Just paper, cloth, metal, and glass. I think you'll be able to
| reach a larger market that way, and if you are delivering then
| charge a small fee to take back the empty containers to either
| recycle or reuse.
| agilob wrote:
| Try /r/zerowaste
| starbase wrote:
| What does "zero waste" even mean? No wasted time or energy? No
| wasted packaging?
| tuxxon wrote:
| Sounds like a good mission with a lot of stuff to do. We can help
| you with same-day delivery at least on the start. $8 per order
| (Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens), Shopify app for easy
| integration. Let me know if you are interested (flot.delivery)
| nlstitch wrote:
| We just had one called Pieter Pot in The Netherlands declare
| bankrupt. Read into their story I would say.
| richhomiepran wrote:
| You can sign up to be on the waitlist while we get set up.
|
| Basically we'll deliver groceries in glass and stainless steel
| containers and pick them up for reuse once you're done.
| inphovore wrote:
| THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS!
|
| Unfortunately, I am not in your zone. What you are doing
| however is noble and I wish you much success!
| richhomiepran wrote:
| Thankyou sir!
| samstave wrote:
| This has been a major area of interest for me for YEARS.
|
| I have some really good design ideas. Some questions and thoughts
| and would like to have a talk with you.
|
| Specifically about mason-jar-meals, delivery
| methods/opportunitunities and market research I hope you have
| done on this matter...
|
| Open?
|
| (source Kozmo.com and other delivery service tracking, but also
| product assembly creation thoughts (PM-ing))
| engineer_22 wrote:
| I'm not from NYC, I'm from a smaller city in New York. I recently
| visited Harlem, and I was shocked by the number of delivery
| drivers zooming around on small motorcycles (scooters).
|
| tongue in cheek: you know your city has reached a high standard
| of human development when everything is delivered to your
| apartment by a servant on a motorbike.
| rcme wrote:
| Never bet against convenience.
| seltzered_ wrote:
| There was an attempt at a zero waste grocery store in east Austin
| a decade ago called in.gredients. IIRC they eventually pivoted to
| being a small deli/restaurant and eventually closed. You may be
| able to Google around to find the founder who probably has some
| experiences to share.
| https://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/food/2018-04-25/damn-i...
|
| There was also someone recently attempting to build a worker
| owned co-op: https://vivekmgeorge.medium.com/my-1-lesson-after-
| eleven-mon...
| crazygringo wrote:
| All I would say is, have you worked out the numbers? Have you
| surveyed people to determine what they would actually pay and
| estimated the market size realistically?
|
| Because grocery delivery is _extremely_ hard to make money on
| already, and then you 're targeting a small subset of that market
| and in a way that will cost much more.
|
| I applaud your enthusiasm and values but I'd hate to see you
| spend huge amounts of time and money on this and then fail simply
| because there was never any way to make the numbers work.
| richhomiepran wrote:
| I have not figured out how much people want to pay yet; I'm
| interested in making deliveries and creating a super loyal
| customer base first, however small. Definitely gotta start
| thinking about all you've mentioned.
| [deleted]
| birdyrooster wrote:
| That's a charity not a business
| sproketboy wrote:
| [dead]
| jsumrall wrote:
| Word of caution since this is posted the same day this news came
| out about a similar service here in the Netherlands going
| bankrupt: https://www.nu.nl/economie/6251507/verpakkingsvrije-
| supermar...
| itake wrote:
| "Zero waste" is misleading.
|
| > End the use of plastic in the consumption of food and hygiene
| products.
|
| How is the food transported without plastic? Cars, trucks, and
| bicycles all use some form of plastic and emit carbon waste when
| heating the steal and plastic in their construction.
|
| Is the food sourced from farmers that do not use plastic in their
| farm equipment or tarps? If so, how does this impact price and
| yield?
| the_gastropod wrote:
| Lol. This is about the level pedantry I guess I should expect
| on HN. But... yes. It's _obviously_ a bit of an exaggeration.
| Like zero-emissions vehicles, "zero waste" is a colloquial
| expression. Vegans probably eat _hundreds_ of small bugs every
| year--does that mean they 're not _really_ vegan?
|
| The point is that it's an effort to approach, as closely as is
| possible, zero. You'll never reach 0. But you can do a hell of
| a lot better than status quo.
| gretch wrote:
| I don't think it's pedantry, I think it's misleading to non-
| technical consumers, the ones that can't easily differentiate
| a true fact of your product and an aspirational goal.
|
| The damage is that when they find out 'the truth' they're
| gonna become cynical and jaded, and they'll be forever turned
| off to the cause that you so dearly care about. You can
| already see it in the rest of these comments.
| bogomipz wrote:
| No, it's not pedantry at all. It just sounds like you are not
| at all familiar with New York City. Delivery services almost
| exclusively use e-Bikes(which must be charged) and gas
| powered scooters. Further in New York City you have always
| been able to walk a few blocks and pick up your own
| groceries, stick them in your canvas bag and then put the
| trash in the city provided recycling bins. This actually was
| the "status quo" before the endless onslaught of vc-backed
| food delivery services. It still is the status quo for many.
| Lastly the city also runs a program called ZeroWaste where
| you can also bring your foods scraps for composting.[1] There
| are literally hundreds of ZeroWaste drop off locations which
| are often located in parks and green markets. You can
| actually pedal a bike in a dedicated bike lane or take the
| train to get there.
|
| [1] https://www.grownyc.org/compost
| the_gastropod wrote:
| Heh. I lived in NYC for over a decade and used to volunteer
| with GrowNYC in Brooklyn :)
|
| Beyond that, I'm not sure your point?! The city-run
| "ZeroWaste" drop off locations certainly produce _some_
| waste (heat waste from the vehicles transporting the
| compost bins, for instance?). My point was: the ZERO is not
| literally zero. It 's "significantly less" than status quo.
| Even Bea Johnson, of "Zero Waste Home" fame, proudly
| displays her small jar of waste she collects every year.
| She's never pretended there's literally no waste in her
| life.
| bogomipz wrote:
| So you accuse others of pedantry and then go on to make a
| statement such as:
|
| >"The city-run "ZeroWaste" drop off locations certainly
| produce some waste (heat waste from the vehicles
| transporting the waste, for instance?).?"
|
| Brilliant.
|
| My point was very clear - you don't need a delivery
| service to get your groceries with minimal environment
| impact in a place like NYC. I clearly articulated all the
| ways that already exist to accomplish that with very
| little effort and no lifestyle change. If you lived in
| NYC for a decade then surely you should know this.
|
| Honestly your comments read more like trolling than
| anything else. Also the constant "heh" and "lol" is very
| tiresome and not all conducive to a productive
| discussion.
| the_gastropod wrote:
| ...Whoa. There's a gross misunderstanding happening
| somewhere. I apparently haven't articulated myself well
| here. Let me try to recap:
|
| 1. itake criticized the term "Zero Waste" because zero
| waste things don't literally produce zero waste. I
| suggested that was a bit pedantic, because it seemed
| obvious. _Nothing_ produces zero waste. My hunch is maybe
| you read more into this statement than was there?!
|
| 2. You responded suggesting I must be unfamiliar with New
| York City?! (It's not clear how you arrived at this?!) I
| understood you to believe that it's fair to criticize the
| term Zero Waste for not being literally Zero Waste. Then
| --as I understood it--you suggested that ZeroWaste
| programs in NY were status quo, and good examples of Zero
| Waste.
|
| 3. I responded explaining that I did live in NY. Was very
| familiar with GrowNYC. And that _even good examples of
| Zero Waste_ (GrowNYC programs) still do _literally_
| produce waste, and I was therefore confused by your
| response. Are you arguing that it 's pedantic to
| criticize the term "Zero Waste" for not literally
| producing no waste or aren't you?!
|
| I wholeheartedly agree with you! I'm not sure where you
| think I'm being inconsistent or unfair?! The co-opting of
| "Zero Waste" by marketing departments used to peddle
| unnecessary nonsense is rather gross.
| akira2501 wrote:
| > "zero waste" is a colloquial expression.
|
| Zero waste is an industry marketing term that you are
| masquerading as a colloquial expression.
| the_gastropod wrote:
| It's increasingly _become_ adopted as an industry/marketing
| term. But that's not the history of it.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_waste
| itake wrote:
| "zero container waste" would more clearly define their
| mission. They should not mislead consumers by diluting the
| term "zero waste".
|
| If another business offers similar services, but using
| exclusively zero emission vehicles (at a higher cost?), then
| environmentally conscious consumers will not have correct
| information to make their purchasing decisions.
| the_gastropod wrote:
| Yea, I get your point. I think part of the problem is
| _many_ people first hear about "Zero Waste" from some
| corporation marketing their product/service as zero-waste.
| The term has been in-use environmentalists since the late
| 90's, and was really popularized by Bea Johnson's book
| "Zero Waste Home" in the 2000's. It's a bit of a bummer
| it's been coopted by the likes of Unilever and Proctor and
| Gamble as a way to green-wash and make money.
| fourandtwenty wrote:
| Yes I'm your target audience. Already visit zero waste/BYO
| container stores in NYC.
|
| My concern would be _where_ I 'd store all the containers you
| give me after they're empty. Small apartment (surprise).
|
| Another would be if I break or lose the containers, what the
| price to replace them would be.
|
| Would the containers be delivered in reusable bags? Paper bags?
|
| Also your prices need to compete with Whole Foods, Instacart,
| etc. Sounds difficult, I wish you luck.
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| This seems to not be anything more than a mere idea for now,
| based on your comments. I don't really see the point of sharing
| your website at this point, where you're months away of
| delivering your first products (if you ever do, which I wouldn't
| bet on).
| elyall wrote:
| Zero Grocery in the Bay, which had the same business model,
| folded last year. There's probably a lot to learn from them.
| https://sf.eater.com/2022/3/28/23000037/zero-grovery-deliver...
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