[HN Gopher] Last Flight Out
___________________________________________________________________
Last Flight Out
Author : bo0tzz
Score : 702 points
Date : 2023-02-15 12:23 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (brr.fyi)
(TXT) w3m dump (brr.fyi)
| geocrasher wrote:
| Is there anything a C-130 cannot do? What an incredible aircraft.
| That landing, complete with reverse thrust, was incredible.
| 0x0000000 wrote:
| Just to make it a little crazier, all LC-130s (the ones with
| skis) fly out of upstate New York!
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_LC-130
| rootusrootus wrote:
| A C-130 with JATO is also fun to watch. I am not sure they do
| it any more, but the Blue Angels used to do a demo of it with
| Fat Albert[0] during their air show appearances.
|
| [0] https://avgeekery.com/watch-fat-albert-rockets-into-
| airshow-...
| caseyohara wrote:
| That is awesome!
| elSidCampeador wrote:
| > Our water comes from a "Rodwell", which is basically a big hole
| in the ground.
|
| TIL some people call a borewell a "rodwell"
| bizzyb wrote:
| not quite a borewell. short for rodriguez.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodriguez_well
| https://www.southpolestation.com/trivia/rodwell/rodwell.html
| hgsgm wrote:
| Per the "boring rod"
|
| https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/boring%20rod
| palla89 wrote:
| It feels so magic to live in places with extreme conditions. Lack
| of comforts, internet on/off and the real danger that something
| really important suddenly brokes, I imagine that it let you feel
| more alive than ever!
|
| Don't know if it's something that's only poetic and beautiful
| when thinking about it or if it's the real deal, but imagining
| myself, after a long day with -50degC outside, to be 10k miles
| from everyone and everything, just with my blanket and a book or
| a movie that I waited 20 days to have fully downloaded.
| ncr100 wrote:
| One area of research at the opposite side, McMurdo, apparently is
| around glaciers melting.
|
| > Warming seas are carving into massive Antarctic glacier that
| could trigger sea level rise
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/02/1...
|
| Q: I wonder if the South Pole station is also involved in active
| climate research or if the North Pole is somehow more
| scientifically relevant to near-term climate change?
|
| Enlightning observation:
|
| > [...] researchers have determined that warm water is getting
| channeled into crevasses in what the researchers called
| "terraces" -- essentially, upside-down trenches -- and carving
| out gaps under the ice. As the ice then flows toward the sea,
| these channels enlarge and become future potential break points,
| where the floating ice shelf comes apart and produces huge
| icebergs.
| gammarator wrote:
| My favorite writing about Antarctica is "Big Dead Place":
| https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-30/big-dead-place-the-wi...
|
| You can find the blog in the Internet Archive:
| https://web.archive.org/web/20120402141259/http://www.bigdea...
| or grab the book.
|
| Silver medal to Maciej for this one:
| https://idlewords.com/2016/05/shuffleboard_at_mcmurdo.htm
| zbaxrl wrote:
| Another blog, about the french-italian base Concordia.
|
| https://www.gdargaud.net/Antarctica/WinterDC1.html
| fragmede wrote:
| In years past there was also ABigDeadPlace.com, which has since
| lapsed due to the author's unfortunate death. Thankfully it was
| published as a book, _Big Dead Place: Inside the Strange and
| Menacing World of Antarctica_ by Nicholas Johnson. If brr.fyi
| strikes your fancy, I bet that book would as well.
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/40919
| ripley12 wrote:
| 100%. I would describe the subject matter as "dysfunctional
| office politics in Antarctica", which doesn't sound
| fascinating but it really is!
| teachrdan wrote:
| I can second Big Dead Place. It's an entertaining and
| slightly cynical take on the Antarctic, including such
| details as the head of an American base personally removing
| the "Made in China" stickers from the souvenirs in the gift
| shop, and a description of how an item brought inside from
| the outdoors radiates cold like a campfire radiates heat.
| jpamata wrote:
| Always loved reading about adventures in Antarctica. It feels
| like the closest thing we can get to going to an exoplanet.
| gnatman wrote:
| I thought those fuel bladders were pretty cool! Never thought
| about transporting volatiles in anything other than a rigid tank.
| Also had to look up what AN-8 Fuel is:
|
| "AN8 is a special fuel blend unique to the Antarctic and Arctic.
| It has a lower flash point of 100 degrees Fahrenheit, which also
| lowers the gelling point when extreme cold temperatures can cause
| wax crystals to start forming in the fuel. AN8 will remain liquid
| until about minus 72 degrees."
|
| https://antarcticsun.usap.gov/features/2975
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Now I wonder what the cost per gallon is!
| Maxion wrote:
| With these type of operations it becomes a bit semantic and
| depends entirely on how you define costs and over what
| timespan.
|
| You have to ship it there via tanker, store at McMurdo, and
| ship across the ice on special purpose vehicles. If you
| divide the whole cost of all that up per gallon of fuel you
| get a price. But if you need more, the margin cost for the
| next gallon is going to be an interesting one, and probably
| come with a free extra 9999 gallons or something.
| pmarreck wrote:
| These stories are always interesting and I feel like a lot of us
| have a strand within us that wouldn't mind doing a tour in a
| place like that
| ta1243 wrote:
| The shower page was interesting, you get 4 minutes of shower time
| a week
|
| https://brr.fyi/posts/showering-at-the-south-pole
|
| I'm surprised they can't just melt snow water to run things like
| showers.
|
| Oddly no suggestions on the page about doubling up your shower
| with someone else to have longer or more frequent showers.
| biesnecker wrote:
| There's only a few centimeters of snow per year at the pole,
| it's a high desert, and digging the ice out is probably not
| worth the energy?
| InitialLastName wrote:
| The same blog has a post referring to snow accumulation
| (evidently wind-blown, not precipitated) requiring enormous
| operations and infrastructural efforts to keep the station
| from being buried [0].
|
| There seems to be plenty of snow available, if you want to
| melt it. Energy is the issue.
|
| [0] https://brr.fyi/posts/south-pole-topography
| [deleted]
| stickfigure wrote:
| I'm more curious about what they do with the greywater. If you
| just dumped it you'd end up with a giant, evergrowing pile of
| dirty ice.
| bizzyb wrote:
| the rodwell where they melt the ice for their water makes a
| big cavern in the ice. the previous rodwell is used for all
| greywater/human waste, indeed making a giant shitcicle. when
| the current freshwater rodwell is done, they start a new one
| and that one becomes the new dumping one.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| There's another post on his blog about visiting the sewage
| treatment plant at McMurdo (not Pole, I don't know what they
| do there). At McMurdo it's like any other sewage treatment
| plant: they release the cleaned water into the sea.
| ta1243 wrote:
| Which can't be done at the pole. The options are either
| drive it (and all waste) out to McMurdo, or leave it there.
| hgsgm wrote:
| 2 people in a shower doesn't effectively decrease water usage
| per person, and the logistics overhead would eat into the 4
| minutes.
| fragmede wrote:
| If done with someone you find attractive, that also finds you
| attractive, 2 people to a shower, that _want_ to participate
| in this shared activity of showering together, increases this
| thing called "fun". (Both parties wanting to participate is
| requisite for this "fun" to happen. If one or both parties
| does not want to, this "fun" does not happen. Even if both
| parties want to, that is not a guarantee that "fun" will
| happen.) Note that this "fun" is unable to spontaneously
| generate water, unfortunately. However, every rules lawyer
| will note that the limit is 4 minutes of water, and not a
| limit of spending 4 minutes in the shower. (8 minutes of
| water for two people.) Thus, two people may choose to spend
| additional time in the shower with the water off. If it is
| not clear to you what two consenting, attracted, naked, soapy
| adults could possibly do for "fun", please find and ask an
| adult that you know and trust.
| eigenhombre wrote:
| Previous discussion here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34658286
| hibbelig wrote:
| Doesn't that post explain that this is just what they do, and
| that melting the snow is pretty involved?
| seanw444 wrote:
| There's also limited fuel that they have to conserve, so
| infinite snow does not mean infinite water.
| raisedbyninjas wrote:
| With a 30 degree delta between temperature and wind chill,
| I'd think they're ripe for wind turbines.
| EricLeer wrote:
| Unfortunatly wind turbines are also not really a big fan
| of the cold. When ice grows on the blades they can become
| unstable.
| ratg13 wrote:
| Seems like a decent opportunity to use a nuclear reactor ..
| something like what you would find on a submarine.
| fragmede wrote:
| It was tried!
| http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph241/reid2/
| throwanem wrote:
| I wonder what it'd take to adapt NuScale's SMR design.
| Probably a lot, given the unusual rigors of the Antarctic
| environment, but for basically the same reasons it seems
| like something that'd be worth funding.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| We already tried that 60 years ago in Greenland, it
| didn't end well.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Iceworm
| kortilla wrote:
| That didn't fail because of the nuclear reactor, it
| failed because the ice sheet movement deformed the
| tunnels over time and collapsed ceilings. Nothing to do
| with the feasibility of sitting a portable nuclear
| reactor on top of the ice like the settlements in
| Antarctica.
| sponaugle wrote:
| There is a fascinating film about that reactor:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlmOQJW5Xis
| hollerith wrote:
| >I'm surprised they can't just melt snow
|
| They do get their water by melting snow _and_ they use waste
| heat from the generation of electricity to do some or all of
| the melting.
|
| Apparently, it takes a lot of energy to melt snow.
| n1b0m wrote:
| I'm game if you are
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| > Everyone is free to stand in the physical shower stall as
| long as they want! As long as they keep water flow within the
| allocated quota.
|
| I'm going to be turning on the water to get wet, soaping up,
| turning on the water to rinse. If I have some extra maybe I'll
| let the water just run for some seconds to enjoy it.
|
| More people in the shower isn't going to help, they're just
| going to get in the way.
|
| Also, at least 10 years ago when I heard from someone who was
| there, the over-winter population at the base was super-
| majority men, rather homophobic, and flaunting any
| hetereosexual couplings you had was... fraught, due to issues
| of jealosy and competition.
| bartvk wrote:
| I wonder if there are libido-inhibiting drugs you can take,
| and whether that would help.
| KineticLensman wrote:
| The British Army allegedly used Bromide in tea for this
| purpose in WW2 [0]
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromide#Folk_and_passe_me
| dicin...
| ReptileMan wrote:
| Old joke from where I live
|
| Two old vets (in their 90s) are sitting in a bench
|
| The first says - Mate, do you remember the bromide they
| gave us in the military?
|
| The second - yeah?
|
| The first guy - Well it started to work.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > I'm going to be turning on the water to get wet, soaping
| up, turning on the water to rinse.
|
| Commonly called a military shower[0], and exactly what I do
| in my RV when boondocking.
|
| [0] In the military, ironically, even in boot camp we didn't
| shower this way, we just went very quickly. just the pits...
| rtkwe wrote:
| I've heard that specifically called a Navy shower in most
| cases not generically military.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Strangely enough the South Pole Mega Shower is still shorter
| than my average shower time.
|
| Maybe you can catch and reuse your own water. Then you'd just
| need to bring a jerrycan and water heater every time.
| joe_lin wrote:
| What happens if someone has a true medical emergency? Like heart
| attack or burst appendix? Are they stranded?
|
| I feel like this fear would be lingering over me the entire time.
| panax wrote:
| That's why in Villas Las Estrellas they require residents to
| have their appendix to be removed:
| https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180810-villas-las-estre...
| stinkytaco wrote:
| You could cut it out yourself [1]
|
| But I've read that doctors do need to have their appendix
| removed, but not other people. I can't find a source on that,
| however.
|
| [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32481442
| biztos wrote:
| Probably not if it burst!
|
| > It was not an easy choice. Rogozov knew his appendix could
| burst and if that happened, it would almost certainly kill
| him - and while he considered his options, his symptoms got
| worse.
|
| (From your link.)
| GTP wrote:
| Usually in such outcast places they have a room equipped for
| light surgery and some emergency procedures. You won't receive
| the same level of care that you would have in a proper
| hospital, but they should be able to at least do some
| "temporary fix" while transportation to a proper hospital is
| arranged if needed. Appendectomy shouldn't be a problem.
| Klonoar wrote:
| >but they should be able to at least do some "temporary fix"
| while transportation to a proper hospital is arranged if
| needed.
|
| I believe the person you're responding to is moreso asking
| what would happen if it was during the months where no
| inbound or outbound transportation is possible.
| wiml wrote:
| Well, yes. There's the famous case of when a station's only
| doctor had appendicitis so he removed his own [1], and another
| who had to do her own cancer biopsy and chemotherapy [2]. The
| equations may be simple but they are still very cold.
|
| [1] Leonid Rogozov, 1961.
| https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32481442
|
| [2] Jerri Nielsen, 1998.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerri_Nielsen
| mashygpig wrote:
| I just finished reading "Alone" by Richard Byrd [0]. It's about a
| man who wintered alone in Antarctica during the dark night in
| 1934. I found it very captivating and I think a lot of those on
| HN would find it interesting; especially those who find this blog
| interesting.
|
| [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/368563
| xNeil wrote:
| Thank you very much for the recommendation! I now how I'm
| spending the day today :)
| izolate wrote:
| Fascinating. I wish I could do something similar. My personality
| traits naturally favor isolation, darkness and the cold.
| Unfortunately, I doubt there's any need for software engineers in
| Antarctica.
| faceloss wrote:
| [dead]
| the_duke wrote:
| Don't miss it on the FAQ, it's' hilarious.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| If you zoom in on the first warehouse picture, you see there's
| ice inside the stores warehouse.
|
| I guess they let everything that can tolerate it freeze?
| enoch_r wrote:
| I got sucked into reading a few other posts by the same author
| and one is about exactly this! https://brr.fyi/posts/frost
|
| Pretty incredible.
| dvas wrote:
| Agree! Interesting read which got me thinking about how we
| take our current systems (hvac, phones, laptops) /
| constructions materials and the environments we use them in
| with the expectation that they should work 99% of the time.
|
| Down the rabbit hole... how long would my phone last in
| strato/meso/thermo spheres before memory starts flipping due
| to cosmic rays?
|
| Thanks for sharing!
| V__ wrote:
| Check out his previous post: https://brr.fyi/posts/frost
|
| > We don't heat spaces unless we have to!
|
| > The ice isn't really "wet" per se. It has the consistency of
| shattered automotive safety glass. On a related note, the snow
| doesn't really behave like "frozen water crystals". It's more
| like "very cold sand".
| tom-from-july wrote:
| Yep, see this other post: https://brr.fyi/posts/frost
| anovikov wrote:
| Always wondered if at least one-way resupply was possible
| (containers airdropped and guided by GPS to land at precise
| point)?
| dahart wrote:
| Not sure why I'd never learned or noticed the altitude of the
| South Pole is so high, no wonder it's extra chilly. I assume the
| screenshot is off by a bit maybe because it's estimating altitude
| from barometric pressure or something?
| hgsgm wrote:
| The South Pole is also closer to the center of the earth than
| the equator. Not sure how that effects altitude:temperature
| relationship .
| dahart wrote:
| Good question. I guess that temp is driven mostly by altitude
| above sea level, so proximity to Earth's center doesn't
| affect temp, but I'm not certain. At least I looked it up,
| and the coastline of Antarctica is about 40C warmer than the
| high altitude plateau...
| dmckeon wrote:
| Wikipedia gives the altitude for the South Pole station as:
|
| > The station is located on the high plateau of Antarctica at
| 2,835 metres (9,301 ft) above sea level.
|
| The screenshot shows air pressure, expressed as altitude and
| pressure. 685mb is mildly thin air for humans, but the top of
| Everest is about 250mb. Earth sea level is 1000mb, and the
| surface of Mars would be about 6mb. BYO oxygen and pressure.
| mig39 wrote:
| When the author refers to AN-8 fuel, do they mean JP-8? Jet fuel
| / Kerosene?
| jacquesm wrote:
| This is the engine:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivchenko_AI-20
| bearbin wrote:
| AN-8 is kerosene, similar to JP-8, but with a lower freezing
| point specification.
|
| https://erdc-library.erdc.dren.mil/jspui/bitstream/11681/243...
| photochemsyn wrote:
| No fresh food? Some Antarctic stations have hydroponics setups,
| is South Pole an exception?
|
| https://www.antarctica.gov.au/antarctic-operations/stations/...
| ryandrake wrote:
| Whenever I read about how humans are about to colonize Mars, I
| think about how much logistics it takes to keep even a single
| base with a handful of people populated on the South Pole. It's
| like Mars, but with plentiful oxygen and atmospheric pressure,
| plentiful (albeit frozen) water, shielded from radiation, low-
| latency communication with civilization, and is reachable by air
| and ground vehicles. Given how difficult and fraught it is to
| keep a few people alive down there, how does anyone expect to
| keep a few people alive on Mars, let alone build a colony there?
| dekhn wrote:
| humans aren't about to colonize mars. At best we could put
| people on the surface for a week and return them home safely
| (with some non-zero probability of death).
|
| What's really crazy is what it would take to build sustainable
| non-earth infrastructure if earth wasn't available. I mean,
| sure, start with space robots that can extrude aluminum, but
| ... if you read the story of the western colonizers, it was
| brutal especially if they couldn't get resupplied.
| faceloss wrote:
| [dead]
| dylan604 wrote:
| >if you read the story of the western colonizers, it was
| brutal especially if they couldn't get resupplied.
|
| For all of the places western colonizers went, there were
| always resources that Mars will never have. Skipping past the
| obvious lack of atmosphere, there are no food sources. While
| they have found ice meaning some water is available, it is
| actually potable?
|
| Trying to compare early colonizers of any place on Earth to
| the experiences of whatever will happen on Mars is just pure
| folly.
| dekhn wrote:
| THe point is to say that if we can't win the game on easy
| mode, probably best not to try to win it on hard mode.
| gpm wrote:
| We've had permanent bases in the south pole for 120 years now.
| It's not particularly fraught. It's not free, but with a small
| investment of money we're perfectly able to do it.
|
| We can't colonize it of course, because The Antarctic Treaty
| forbids territorial claims. Not because we aren't able to build
| things in the conditions that exist there.
|
| Mars introduces a lot of new challenges, but 120 years of
| technological development gives us a lot of new tools to
| address them.
| hannasanarion wrote:
| How do you figure 120 years? The first South Pole Station was
| Old Amudsen Scott which started operations in 1957 (65 years
| ago), the winter of 57-58 was the first time humans stayed
| through the long night at the pole.
| gpm wrote:
| Wikipedia is claiming that the Omond House - 1903 - was the
| first permanent base. Renamed to Orcadas Base in 1904 and
| permanently inhabited since.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcadas_Base
| dogsgobork wrote:
| That's not even within the Antarctic circle, I don't
| think I'd consider it a "South Pole" outpost.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| i think your observation is excellent.
|
| but the entire Mars thing, the last several years, smells like
| Elon Musk trying to drum up interest to force government
| funding that he hopes to channel his way.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _how difficult and fraught it is to keep a few people alive
| down there, how does anyone expect to keep a few people alive
| on Mars, let alone build a colony there?_
|
| Necessity is the mother of invention. It makes no sense to use
| precious Antarctic time and space growing all the food when
| it's cheaper to ship it in. Similar to how civilizations with a
| history of littoral shipbuilding figured out ocean-faring--if
| you're always a day from port, you don't bother baking hard
| tack. That doesn't mean you can't.
| wwweston wrote:
| This is a statement about the absence of immediate first-
| order incentives.
|
| But there are other incentives, for example, being interested
| in the problems of actually settling Mars.
|
| Necessity is certainly motivating, but people serious about
| their ambitions often don't wait for it to motivate their
| preparations. Would-be serious ocean-farers probably want to
| become practiced in
| producing/storing/carrying/consuming/restoring hard tack (or
| other equivalent sustenance) before relying on it over weeks
| away from port.
|
| The absence of self-sustaining colonies in harsh outposts on
| the earth (and similar absence of more local positive
| terraforming projects) indicate limits in how serious anyone
| is about colonizing Mars.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _absence of self-sustaining colonies in harsh outposts on
| the earth (and similar absence of more local positive
| terraforming projects) indicate limits in how serious
| anyone is about colonizing Mars_
|
| This is a stronger argument. I agree. I think there is
| serious interest in establishing permanent facilities on
| Mars. But a self-sufficient, self-sustaining population
| isn't being planned on because there are too many unknowns
| for any definition of a plan that doesn't overlap hard
| science fiction.
| lisper wrote:
| Something I've never even seen _mentioned_ , let along
| seriously discussed, is the protocol for deciding under
| what circumstances the first human will be born and
| raised off-earth. I predict that will turn out to be an
| intractable problem.
| MagicMoonlight wrote:
| When a female crew member gets nutted in on the two year
| long journey to mars...
|
| I give it like a day before they're all having sex.
| xen2xen1 wrote:
| I can't imagine they won't all be fixed for that reason.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _the protocol for deciding under what circumstances the
| first human will be born and raised off-earth_
|
| This one's easy. We won't have one when it happens.
|
| > _predict that will turn out to be an intractable
| problem_
|
| In what ways?
| lisper wrote:
| Goodness, where to even begin? Maybe here...
|
| https://www.wired.com/2009/08/spacebabies/
|
| We've never even successfully raised a _mouse_ in space.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| Oh, you're talking about extraterrestrial reproduction
| being intractable. Sure. I have no view on this
| scientifically. That won't stop people from trying. And
| I'd assume there's a massive difference between zero g
| and 0.4g.
| lisper wrote:
| Maybe. We have zero data about this.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _have zero data about this_
|
| I agree with you as much as I am certain that data have
| close to no consequence for the people making the
| decision.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Have you not read Stranger In A Strange Land?
| lisper wrote:
| Yes. Why do you think that's relevant? You are aware that
| this was a work of fiction, yes?
| dylan604 wrote:
| Wait, what? Someone wasn't actually born on Mars, and
| there aren't actually Martians? You're joking! /s
|
| Did you honestly believe that I was suggesting that the
| first person born on Mars was going to be considered the
| owner of Mars?
| vkou wrote:
| Let me pose a different question.
|
| If the purpose of Mars is being a lifeboat for some life-
| ending disaster on Earth, why doesn't that group of people go
| and build a self-sufficient colony in the Antarctic?
|
| It'll get you 90% of the way there for way less than 10% of
| the effort.
|
| Necessity is the mother of invention, and nobody is doing it
| because it's not actually necessary. Martian colonisation is
| more of a religion, than the product of an actual positive
| cost/benefit analysis.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _the purpose of Mars is being a lifeboat for some life-
| ending disaster on Earth, why doesn 't that group of people
| go and build a self-sufficient colony in the Antarctic?_
|
| There are various reasons for wanting to go to Mars. I
| don't think most people's primary motivation is species-
| level survival.
| vkou wrote:
| Like what? A research outpost?
|
| You have to get into a knife fight with your peers to get
| a grad student who works for ramen on your lab's funding
| proposal, you're not going to get the amortized cost of a
| real lab on Mars approved. For that money, there's a
| thousand languishing research proposals that we should be
| looking into instead.
|
| There are no economic reasons to go there, either. It's
| too far away, it's too dangerous, and shipping anything
| is too much work.
|
| There are no military reasons to go there, either. The
| military is happy to put weapons in orbit, but Mars is
| too far away.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _research outpost?_
|
| Sure. Tourism, too. Many of us have an exploration urge
| and instinct, and I can't say it's all rational.
|
| > _there 's a thousand languishing research proposals
| that we should be looking into instead_
|
| But we're not. People are motivated by passion. I'm not
| convinced every engineer at SpaceX would be engineering
| without that mission in their head. I'm also certain the
| capital being pumped into SpaceX isn't fungible into
| other research.
|
| Mars, Inc. made a good pitch. It got people excited and
| involved. I get the sour grapes. We all have pet projects
| we'd prefer be prioritized instead. But I don't see us
| fighting over a fixed-sized pie.
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| George Mallory's reply to why he wanted to climb Everest
| will do: "Because it's there."
| pclmulqdq wrote:
| The "research outposts" thing was pretty much solved by
| sending robots to these hostile environments. They have
| some serious limitations, but it's a lot cheaper to send
| a few kilograms on a robot than a few hundred kilograms
| of meat to carry out a few known procedures.
| fragmede wrote:
| Because any calamity serious enough to threaten humanity on
| that level is likely to threaten Antarctica just as
| seriously.
| willhslade wrote:
| How is it necessary to colonize Mars?
| tunesmith wrote:
| TIL "littoral"... I initially misread it as a misspelling of
| "literal".
| localplume wrote:
| Precious space? Its a pretty big continent.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Precious space? Its a pretty big continent_
|
| That you can't farm on. The farmable bits are in protected,
| heated shelters that are expensive to build and maintain.
| otabdeveloper4 wrote:
| It's roughly a million times easier to grow food on the
| South Pole than it is to grow it on Mars.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _a million times easier to grow food on the South Pole
| than it is to grow it on Mars_
|
| And it's a million easier still to import it. So apart
| from hydroponics for treats and research, it's not a
| problem worth solving.
| el_nahual wrote:
| > it's not a problem worth solving.
|
| Exactly. Farming on mars is not a problem worth solving.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Exactly. Farming on mars is not a problem worth
| solving_
|
| I know you're being flippant, but this is a textbook
| propositional fallacy. (Affirming a disjunct [1], I
| think.)
|
| In summary, you argue: farming on Antarctica is
| difficult, so we import food instead. Farming on Mars is
| difficult, but we don't want to import food. Herego, we
| shouldn't farm on Mars or bother with it at all.
| Alternatively, if X (farming is difficult), Y (farm) or Z
| (import). You're arguing neither Y or Z by, implicitly,
| rejecting Z. That doesn't make sense.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_a_disjunct
| 1659447091 wrote:
| Exactly. We need replicators[0], problem solved.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replicator_(Star_Trek)
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Resupply latencies not exactly comparable.
|
| So I would say that yes, farming on Mars is a problem
| worth solving, and one that will be solved once there's a
| need to do so (that doesn't mean it will be easy or
| inexpensive).
| sneak wrote:
| The people who will be born there will likely not agree
| with you.
| mlindner wrote:
| On Mars you have soil you can process into something
| plants can use (note: needs to be washed free of its
| perchlorate contamination first) whereas at the South
| Pole there is no soil that is not buried under hundreds
| of meters of ice. You can't just create a heated
| greenhouse on top of the ice because it will melt the ice
| underneath.
|
| They've already done tests where they've grown plants in
| Martial soil simulant.
| floxy wrote:
| >at the South Pole there is no soil that is not buried
| under hundreds of meters of ice.
|
| https://www.scenic.com.au/news/seasons-of-antarctica
|
| https://www.antarctica.gov.au/news/2015/scientists-
| heading-t...
|
| https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-how-antarctica-
| managed-t...
| mlindner wrote:
| South pole. I'm not talking about Antarctica as a whole.
| There's plenty of areas on Antarctica's coast where small
| plants/lichen grow.
| [deleted]
| mach1ne wrote:
| Planning, quite simply. Antarctic station is planned to be as
| robust as needed, and so it is.
| tegeek wrote:
| Humans are not going to visit Mars anytime soon, let alone
| colonize. There are not one but many unsolved technical,
| economical etc. issues.
|
| But its a dream and a wish list. And We're the only species who
| can have dreams as big as we want.
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| Economical and ethical issues are the kind that would be
| immediately swept away if, say, China said they were going to
| beat us there. The cost is approximately trivial compared to
| the US's budget. Technical issues I don't really buy. Getting
| to the martian surface isn't much more complicated than going
| to the moon and back. Getting back into martian orbit is
| trickier, but not in a "Requires novel breakthroughs or
| undiscovered science" way.
|
| It's perfectly reasonable to say the reason we don't
| currently have anybody on Mars is because we (politically)
| just don't really want to. If the Russians had beat us to the
| Moon, we probably would have made it Mars decades ago.
| shawndrost wrote:
| I think everyone envisions Mars as harder than the South Pole.
| The reason people like Elon envision colonizing Mars instead of
| the South Pole is that they posit a big prize for succeeding at
| the former (becoming the emperor of a large, viable landmass,
| out of range of other nation-states' control and blast radius)
| but not the latter.
|
| (I think this is an accurate observation of motives, but I
| disagree with the posit.)
| rzzzt wrote:
| This is a latency vs. throughput / pipeline problem in
| disguise. You could send a food truck's worth of food every
| hour towards Mars; the first few months will be peaceful and
| quiet, but things change when a food truck appears in orbit
| every hour or so.
| Retric wrote:
| That only helps if they need lunch not some specific part or
| medicine etc.
|
| Also, Earth Mars transfers get dramatically more expensive
| outside of specific timing and of course actually sending
| multiple packages gets ruinously expensive.
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohmann_transfer_orbit
| rzzzt wrote:
| Increasing the number of vehicles in the fleet lets one
| consider alternative transfers, like the bi-elliptic one
| mentioned in the article.
|
| ...though it might make matters a bit difficult that
| expected durations vary between 300-ish days and 4 years
| when I run the numbers in NASA's Trajectory Browser:
| https://trajbrowser.arc.nasa.gov/
| Taniwha wrote:
| My friend who wintered over claimed that the Pole doesn't have
| "plentiful oxygen and atmospheric pressure" - it's high above
| sea level, the earth's spin reduces the pressure at the poles
| and if a low pressure weather system comes in people suffer
| from altitude sickness
|
| https://www.usap.gov/USAPgov/travelAndDeployment/documents/M...
| hapidjus wrote:
| Compared to Mars?
| Taniwha wrote:
| No not compared to Mars, more compared to where humans
| normally live
| aaroninsf wrote:
| TIL thank you, that is very interesting!
| [deleted]
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Love it!
| nicky0 wrote:
| What a tastefully designed and executed blog site. Well done.
| poxrud wrote:
| I would love to try this out for a week or two, but I can't
| imagine doing this for 9 months. For me the feeling of
| claustrophobia and loneliness would be overwhelming.
| toss1 wrote:
| Perhaps contact a Tibetan Buddhist teaching center. They have
| meditation and introspection programs ranging from weekend
| intro courses to multi-month retreats where you isolate in a
| cabin on site (but you are checked in on). I know a few who
| have done it for a week or a month, and all say it's very
| interesting and enlightening, tho also suggest working up to
| it. The one I'm most familiar with is Karme Choling in northern
| Vermont [0], and there are others. Even the short retreats
| yield wonderful states of mind. Check it out!
|
| [0] https://www.karmecholing.org/
|
| [0] https://www.karmecholing.org/
| RugnirViking wrote:
| That is something i've long dreamed of doing. Would love to work
| with british antarctic survey etc. Not sure if my background in
| robotics/engineering would be that useful there though unless I
| push in a tangential direction like radios
| clarkema wrote:
| There are often openings for people with electronics
| engineering backgrounds for roles supporting science and met,
| as opposed to comms and base IT. It doesn't hurt to apply.
|
| Edit: https://www.bas.ac.uk/jobs/careers-at-bas/operational-
| suppor...
| shagie wrote:
| Another over winter opportunity - for Ice Cube
| https://jobs.hr.wisc.edu/en-us/job/516435/winterover-
| experim...
|
| > Winterovers enjoy a variety of job duties during their
| estimated 12 to 13 month deployment at the South Pole.
| Technical duties include operating and maintaining the
| IceCube detector subsystems; operating and maintaining
| complex computer data systems at the South Pole; uploading
| the research data via satellite to the northern hemisphere;
| analyzing and resolving problems with the detector
| electronics; providing critical hardware and software
| support; writing and submitting weekly reports to the
| collaboration and monthly reports to the National Science
| Foundation; and participating in Wisconsin IceCube Particle
| Astrophysics Center outreach activities.
|
| (Note that if that _does_ interest someone, the application
| deadline is March 1)
| arethuza wrote:
| If you like that kind of thing I can recommend the book _Time
| on Ice: A Winter Voyage to Antarctica_ - it 's about a couple
| overwintering in Antarctica in their yacht:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Time-Ice-Winter-Voyage-Antarctica/dp/...
|
| Edit: If I remember correctly they also sailed from and back to
| Sweden to do this...
| moneywoes wrote:
| How are the interpersonal relationships like being stuck with
| others for months
| pavlov wrote:
| Apparently not great if you're a woman:
|
| https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/02/as-antarctic-fieldwo...
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Jesus christ.
|
| "In one online survey published in PLOS ONE and covered by
| Science in 2014, 71% of 512 female respondents reported being
| sexually harassed during fieldwork; 84% of them were
| trainees."
|
| "In the NSF report, one interviewee said she'd been told on
| her first day at McMurdo to stay clear of a certain building
| unless she "wanted to be raped." Another woman said she felt
| like she was seen as "prey" no matter where she was
| physically on the base."
|
| "Another was so "freaked out" by the pervasive sexual
| harassment that she began carrying around a hammer."
|
| "Another survivor of sexual harassment said she didn't report
| the incident for fear her employer would fire her; when she
| could no longer cope, she quit."
|
| This fucking David Marchant guy was a fucking terror. Holy
| shit. (https://www.science.org/content/article/disturbing-
| allegatio...)
|
| "Boston University suspended prominent Antarctic geologist
| David Marchant _with pay_. Multiple women had come forward
| with allegations of sexual harassment against him "
|
| "The first complainant, Jane Willenbring, now an associate
| professor at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography, part of
| the University of California, San Diego, alleges that
| Marchant repeatedly shoved her down a steep slope, pelted her
| with rocks while she was urinating in the field, called her a
| "slut" and a "whore," and urged her to have sex with his
| brother, who was also on the trip."
|
| "According to Willenbring, Marchant told her repeatedly that
| his brother had a "porn-sized" penis, and said she should
| have sex with him and feel lucky for the opportunity." "One
| week, Willenbring alleges, David Marchant "decided that he
| would throw rocks at me every time I urinated in the field."
| She cut her water consumption so she could last the 12-hour
| days far from camp without urinating, then drank liters at
| night. She says she developed a urinary tract infection and
| urinary incontinence, which has since recurred. When blood
| appeared in her urine, she alleges, Marchant prohibited her
| from going back to McMurdo for treatment."
|
| "The second complainant, Deborah Doe (a pseudonym), who was
| in Antarctica for two austral summers during this era,
| reports that Marchant called her a "c--t" and a "bitch"
| repeatedly. She alleges that he promised to block her access
| to research funding should she earn a Ph.D. She abandoned her
| career dreams and left academe."
|
| "A third woman, Hillary Tulley, a Skokie, Illinois, high
| school teacher, describes her experience in a supporting
| letter filed with BU investigators. "His taunts, degrading
| comments about my body, brain, and general inadequacies never
| ended," she writes. She claims Marchant tried to exhaust her
| into leaving Antarctica. "Every day was terrifying," she says
| in an interview with Science."
| gammarator wrote:
| The documentary "Picture a Scientist"
| https://www.pictureascientist.com/ describes some of this--
| it's gutting to watch.
| seanw444 wrote:
| How do you become that evil?
| goldenchrome wrote:
| Totally unsurprising. "Sexual harassment" is a social
| construct and the definition of such changes as our society
| progresses or regresses. What was normal in the 70s is
| considered vile today. We have not evolved as a species. We
| have just created enough abundance that we can afford to
| protect women to a higher degree. 100,000 years ago I'm sure
| humans didn't have a concept of sexual harassment. "If you
| don't want to get raped, don't go with strange men." would be
| the norm.
|
| We forget that we are animals and animals don't have a
| culture of shaming sexual harassment by default. We enforce
| the rules in our society because we can afford to. In the
| Antarctic winter where resources are incredibly scarce and
| the people are trapped for months a time, their local society
| can't afford to have such strict standards. The animal within
| each of us comes out in Antarctica more than anywhere else.
| This is of course part of what makes living there so exciting
| on an elemental level.
|
| If any of this surprises you then you've forgotten that we
| are animals and our current society only exists through
| abundance.
|
| You too would be prone to "sexually harassing" women in those
| conditions. And after a while you wouldn't even see anything
| wrong with it. Because in those conditions it's not wrong,
| it's adaptive.
| pavlov wrote:
| _> "The animal within each of us comes out in Antarctica
| more than anywhere else. This is of course part of what
| makes living there so exciting on an elemental level."_
|
| It's supposed to be a science station, not some kind of
| wild survival game. I don't think any of the women
| scientists signed up for "excitement on an elemental
| level."
| goldenchrome wrote:
| That's a fine goal but it doesn't take away from the fact
| that Antarctica is a hostile environment which makes it
| hard to establish civilization.
|
| I'm describing reality, not my own personal wishes.
| clarkema wrote:
| We don't "establish" civilization. We take it with us.
| clarkema wrote:
| We enforce rules in our society because they make that
| society better. Basic shared rules of behaviour are a
| precondition for social cohesion and prosperity, _not_ a
| luxury that we can only afford when everything else has
| been taken care of. This goes 10x in small groups in
| rigorous environments.
|
| I wouldn't call resources in the Antarctic winter
| "incredibly scarce"; expeditions have been wintering South
| for decades now. We know what's required, and it's
| available, in quantity, with backups. It's true that people
| are trapped together for months at a time; we also rely on
| each other for survival. Under such circumstances, it's
| entirely backwards to claim "local society can't afford to
| have such strict standards." Just the opposite; strict
| standards of social behaviour are _required_ for the group
| cohesion and trust that's necessary for collaboration and
| survival.
|
| A candidate who demonstrated this attitude would never get
| through BAS' hiring process. If, by some mischance, they
| did manage to make it South, they certainly wouldn't be
| overwintering.
|
| Source: Wintered in Antarctica. Did not regress to the
| state of a caveman clad in penguin skins, nor did I become
| "prone to sexually harassing women."
| goldenchrome wrote:
| Yes, you have a personal anecdote but the data suggests
| that people do indeed become prone to sexually harassing
| women.
| clarkema wrote:
| I certainly won't claim that no harassment ever takes
| place; every wintering team is different, and I have no
| doubt that plenty of women _do_ experience some form of
| harassment or unwanted attention. When you live in a
| small, close-knit community with (generally) a large
| gender imbalance, there will be tensions.
|
| What I object to is the unsubstantiated claim that
| Antarctica "brings out the animal in each of us"; that
| the environment is one of such privation that all those
| who venture there necessarily regress to some more basic
| form and that standards of civilized behaviour become
| something we can't afford, sacrificed on the altar of
| survival.
|
| This is patently false, and frankly a very limited and
| limiting view of the human condition.
|
| What you like to dismiss as a "personal anecdote" I'd
| prefer to call "multiple seasons of lived experience in
| the environment under discussion."
|
| While I can't speak for the hiring procedures of other
| nations, the majority of the interview process for the
| British Antarctic Survey centres around the interpersonal
| side. If you're sitting in the interview in the first
| place you're assumed to be technically competent; once
| that bar is passed they select primarily for people who
| will survive the isolation and be able to work as
| independent members of a small society. Are the results
| perfect? Of course not -- failures happen and bad winters
| happen. But they are well aware of how important social
| dynamics are to the overall success of the winter.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Just to recap your argument:
|
| > We enforce the rules in our society because we can afford
| to. In the Antarctic winter where resources are incredibly
| scarce and the people are trapped for months a time, their
| local society can't afford to have such strict standards.
| The animal within each of us comes out in Antarctica more
| than anywhere else. This is of course part of what makes
| living there so exciting on an elemental level.
|
| And your point brought home:
|
| > Because in those conditions it's not wrong, it's
| adaptive.
|
| You have to be a pretty ignorant person to think "I don't
| have many resources, so sexual harassment and violence is
| not only normal, it's a good idea".
|
| Other human societies around the world live in conditions
| close to those at McMurdo, and they do not have this
| problem. But amazingly, McMurdo is better equipped with
| more supplies, with the same seasonal inaccessibility as
| those other societies. So your argument is factually
| incorrect. Limited resources and an extreme environment
| does not implicitly result in a culture of sexual
| harassment and violence.
|
| Nor it is "adaptive" in any advantageous way. It is much
| more likely a result of psychological breakdown, combined
| with a lack of social consequence, and a position of power
| over trainees who do not anticipate this treatment.
| Basically, psychos who can't deal with stress and take it
| out on the most vulnerable to make themselves feel better.
| In no way does this reflect human society, nor normal human
| behavior, as even in hunter-gatherer societies, people work
| together and prevent abuse.
|
| You also have to be pretty morally bankrupt to suggest that
| this condition of abusing other humans for fun is totally
| fine. I don't think you would hold this position if you
| were the one receiving the treatment.
| lordswork wrote:
| From the 274 page NSF report on sexual harassment/assault in
| the Antarctic[1]:
|
| >"a very young woman, [who] had never been on the ice before.
| Somehow, she slipped away from us and went out to the bar . .
| . and I was like 'Oh my god, did we forget to tell her she
| was prey?'" One survey respondent wrote, "I was told [of]
| certain guys, by name, to stay clear of and there were
| several guys who harassed me. Hell, my very first day at
| McMurdo I was told to stay clear of Building [X] unless I
| wanted to be raped."
|
| Wow, I had no idea it was this bad. Being stationed at one of
| these sites is a life-long dream come true for many of these
| scientists. It must be terrible for the women who learn of
| this situation when they get out there.
|
| [1] https://www.nsf.gov/geo/opp/documents/USAP%20SAHPR%20Repo
| rt....
| Neil44 wrote:
| That's a shame. It sounds like a workplace from the 70's, or
| worse.
| ilamont wrote:
| The prospect of a medical emergency would be terrible. I think
| there was an unplanned cancer surgery at this base many years
| back, but there are so many other things that can go wrong with
| no ER or quick evacuation to turn to. Even a dental emergency
| would be a disaster.
|
| ETA: The cancer emergency was in 1998 required a special air drop
| but they had to wait until October to fly out the patient.
| https://antarcticsun.usap.gov/features/1812/
| ryanisnan wrote:
| Is it possible to land a plane there mid-winter, if absolutely
| necessary? Obviously fraught with difficulty, and dangerous,
| but... is it possible?
| eastbound wrote:
| A man committed self-surgery on his appendicitis (in the
| 1950ies, granted), so it seems a single man's life is not
| enough to warrant a full flight in winter. What would warrant
| it? Escaping the apocalypse of the modern world, maybe?
| colechristensen wrote:
| Yes. I can't find the outcome of this attempt a while back, but
| it was obviously tried.
|
| https://nationalpost.com/news/world/pitch-black-frigid-cold-...
| kryptiskt wrote:
| It went well: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
| way/2016/06/22/483121098...
| Reason077 wrote:
| > _" Slow and intermittent Internet access."_
|
| Hmm, how long until Starlink (or similar) reaches the South Pole?
| rtkwe wrote:
| Starlink isn't sending many satellites into the polar orbits
| because there are basically no customer there to make the extra
| cost worth it. To make the whole network cover the poles you'd
| need even more satellites to cover the tiny fraction of
| additional customer it would bring.
|
| Also until recently there wasn't a way to downlink from polar
| sats even if they were lofted. Most Starlink data is
| immediately downlinked instead of being sent to neighboring
| satellites so you need a downlink relatively close to the
| customer which isn't possible on the poles.
|
| Now with the intra=constellation lasers online, though I think
| they're still around 50% of satellites only, it could in theory
| be done but the required extra birds makes it really tough
| economically.
| mlindner wrote:
| The only Starlink satellites that can hope to reach the north
| pole are the satellites that reach 82.4 degrees north/south
| (orbits at inclination of 97.6 degrees) and there's currently
| only 187 of those operating so very few will be in view at any
| one time and the Starlink dish needs to pick an orientation so
| you will only see some of them at any given time (FOV is only
| part of the direction it's facing, missing at least the other
| half of the satellites, if not at least 2/3 of the satellites
| in view).
|
| Whether that makes service impossible, I'm not sure. US
| government may work with SpaceX to make a customized 360 degree
| antenna that can reach them. Or they may mount it on a tower. I
| think a customized antenna would be needed anyway to survive
| the temperatures there. Starlink is technically only rated down
| to -30C though people do use it below that temperature and it
| seems to work. I doubt it'd work at those -60C temps however.
| ericpauley wrote:
| https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-internet-service-antar...
|
| Edit: as someone pointed out this is McMurdo.
| augusto-moura wrote:
| That's McMurdo, not the South Pole, a orbit a lot easier to
| achieve.
|
| I thought that Starlink satellites wouldn't orbit that far on
| the poles, but looking on trackers [1] it does look like
| there a few stragglers up there (or down there in this case,
| he). Maybe there are some special talks with the military and
| other countries on getting some good internet. I don't
| believe polar orbits would be commercially viable otherwise
|
| [1]: https://satellitemap.space/?norad=48119
| kortilla wrote:
| McMurdo is served by the polar orbits. They cover the South
| Pole just as well.
| kortilla wrote:
| https://techcrunch.com/2022/09/14/spacex-satellite-internet-...
|
| There are polar orbits that make that possible since McMurdo is
| out of view of the standard starlink orbits. It should work at
| the South Pole just as well.
| lxgr wrote:
| Once inter-satellite links are operational, presumably. Looking
| at [1], there are already some polar orbit satellites, but
| without these links, that doesn't help Antarctica much. (I'm
| also not sure if the polar satellites are operational for
| regular traffic yet.)
|
| [1] https://satellitemap.space/
| orlp wrote:
| Can someone explain to me how you can have geostationary
| orbit around the poles?
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Can someone explain to me how you can have geostationary
| orbit around the poles?_
|
| You can't. For high latitudes you use highly-elliptical
| orbits, like tundra or Molniya.
| lxgr wrote:
| Or you can use polar orbits, which is what Iridium does!
| I believe that's what the antarctic stations are
| currently using.
| bearbin wrote:
| You can't. Starlink satellites are in LEO, not
| geostationary orbit.
| _joel wrote:
| The laser links are active, have been for a few months now
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| fascinating blog. just read the one article so far, but sure to
| read the rest. what a great experience!
| henryackerman wrote:
| I just love the domain name!
| tiagod wrote:
| This guy is living my dream! Unlikely I'll have have the chance
| to work in inland Antarctica as I'm not from a country that sends
| people over there for tech stuff, but I still hope someday I'll
| have the chance :)
| grecy wrote:
| If you really want to go, be a dishwasher or cook or something
| similar.
|
| I've had 4 friends do exactly that. The work was crap, but the
| experience was well, well worth it.
| almostkorean wrote:
| My grandpa did the same thing when he was 72 years old.
| Applied for food services, worked in the cafeteria but did
| extra stuff like DJ a radio show, drove a shuttle, and gave
| tours. A couple weeks into his stay, my grandpa ended up
| being the "most qualified" person at the station to take over
| the greenhouse (he had an agriculture degree which he hadn't
| used in 48 years) but ended up doing a good job. He travelled
| a lot but Antarctica was his favorite adventure.
| xNeil wrote:
| How do you apply though? I'd assume vacancies would be
| extremely rare - quite interesting you've had four friends do
| it.
| grecy wrote:
| Vacancies are extremely common, they have regular old job
| fairs
|
| Just apply with whatever country applies to you
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=work+in+antarctica
|
| US: https://www.usap.gov/jobsandopportunities/
|
| Australian: https://jobs.antarctica.gov.au/jobs-in-
| antarctica/
| TrackerFF wrote:
| A couple of my ex-colleagues worked on the Troll station. The
| Norwegian Polar Institute usually publish the vacancies a year
| ahead, as there is a lot of prep to get to right people.
|
| Anyway, both of 'em worked as IT/communication engineers some 10
| years apart, but told me that the first movie they watched
| together (with rest of the crew) was John Carpenter's The Thing.
| jedberg wrote:
| Why do they make the buildings black and white? Both of those
| blend in with the snow at night (which is 1/2 the year).
|
| Why not make them day glow yellow or something, so they are
| always visible?
| Maxion wrote:
| Black to save on heating?
|
| During a polar night it gets so dark that once you're out of
| flashlight range it doesn't matter.
|
| The issue is the wind blown snow reducing visibility.
| jedberg wrote:
| > During a polar night it gets so dark that once you're out
| of flashlight range it doesn't matter.
|
| During the polar night the moon is up 1/2 the time, and it's
| from 1/2 full to full to 1/2 full, so there is still a source
| of light at least 1/2 the time.
|
| Making them black to save on heating is a good point though.
| Same with wind blown snow being the main issue with
| visibility.
| ietktnz wrote:
| International rewatch "The Thing" day
| clarkema wrote:
| Too early for that! "The Thing" is traditionally midwinter
| viewing.
| andruby wrote:
| Aren't the northern-hemispherians close enough to midwinter?
| bentcorner wrote:
| Now I wonder if they watch other Antarctic media. I'd recommend
| "A Place Further than the Universe" but I have no idea if it's
| something they'd want to watch.
| teepo wrote:
| I feel like my Emacs setup would be perfect after the winter
| isolation. :) - Has anyone studied the Antarctic winter with
| respect to deep focus and personal productivity?
| dpflan wrote:
| Heh, As in the more extreme the cold, the deeper focus? Perhaps
| ignoring the ever-looming dread of facility malfunction and
| death by freezing... Perhaps other cold environments are better
| suited?
| alex_sf wrote:
| Somewhat related, I've seen mentions here and there of people
| using cruise ships for the same thing. Minimal distractions
| from the outside world (via the internet anyway), and most
| personal concerns out of the way (food, laundry, etc).
| Aperocky wrote:
| Don't think it'd be about deep focus, but definitely spiritual.
| k8sToGo wrote:
| Interesting. To me it sounds quite the opposite. Lonely,
| depressing, and boring.
| dcchambers wrote:
| This is a great blog, thanks for sharing. Definitely looking
| forward to following along during the winter.
|
| I wonder what kinds of science are done at the South Pole.
| _joel wrote:
| Blows me away everytime I see these bases and the amount of
| 'stuff' they have there considering it's literally in the middle
| of nowhere.
| rdevsrex wrote:
| Very cool!
| dpflan wrote:
| If you're interested in the people and personalities and
| activities at the South Pole, the Werner Herzog film _Encounters
| at the End of the World_ is a revealing and interesting
| documentary. It includes a fascinating part about a deluded
| penguin choosing to leave its flock and begin a fatal journey
| towards the center of the island...
|
| - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encounters_at_the_End_of_the_W...
|
| - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1093824/
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| The famous scene[0] from this film is a masterpiece. It never
| fails to sink me to my nadir, so I avoid watching it even if I
| love it so much.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnTU_hJoByA
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| Herzog laying it on thick with the music as per usual lol but
| that is a beautiful, haunting sequence nonetheless. I like to
| rag on Herzog but he really is a unique mind and an
| incredible documentarian.
| julienchastang wrote:
| Thanks. I remember that scene well. Herzog at his finest. I
| had the privilege of seeing Herzog speak in person at a
| conference around the time when this movie was released.
| boredemployee wrote:
| Amazing, thanks for sharing.
| dpflan wrote:
| Understandable. It struck a deep chord with me, became a
| larger metaphor applicable to all life.
| sph wrote:
| Beautiful, thanks for sharing.
|
| That penguin walked to his certain death, while his mates
| swam and caught fish, to their certain death. Sadness for it
| and his supposed insanity only exists for a fleeting moment.
| In a long enough timespan, it lived and died like any other
| penguin has or ever will.
|
| Nihilism is not necessarily pessimistic. It presents our
| universe, and life itself, as a glass half full, but it's up
| to you to decide if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
|
| Thanks for this evening philosophical reflection.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| at least for most of us it is not pessimistic only as long
| as one can muse about it while sitting comfortably in a
| warm place with a full stomach.
| sph wrote:
| You are mistaken. Being at peace with the universe isn't
| only available to wealthy people. This is a very
| materialistic view.
|
| There is someone out there in abject poverty that is more
| content than anyone with a warm place and a full stomach.
| They are hungry, they are cold, yet they are at peace.
|
| Likewise, I believe one can reach inner contentment even
| if fed and clothed. It is not a path accessible only to
| the poor.
| kortilla wrote:
| Food and shelter isn't materialistic. The lack of them
| have have severe psychological and physiological
| consequences.
| zeagle wrote:
| I speculate, but I imagine that that type of behavior by a
| group of individuals on a long timescale where most but not
| fail is one important mechanism of how remote Polynesian
| islands, ice age American via Beringia, and other areas of
| the world get populated.
| jxramos wrote:
| That's what I was thinking---the occasional outlier's
| success in pioneering out into the new.
| throw0101c wrote:
| > _Nihilism is not necessarily pessimistic. It presents our
| universe, and life itself, as a glass half full, but it 's
| up to you to decide if that's a good thing or a bad thing._
|
| The _nihil_ is nihilism is Latin for "nothing".
|
| Nihilism says there is no meaning to existence: it does not
| matter if the glass if half-full, it does not matter if the
| glass is half-empty, it does not matter if the glass (or
| its contents) exist at all. It does not matter if you
| decide if life/universe/everything is good, or if you
| decide it is bad. It does not matter what, or even if, you
| decide something at all.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| The top rated comment is spot on:
|
| > Werner Herzog tells a joke:
|
| > "Why did the penguin cross the road?"
|
| > "To die. Alone. Insane and unnoticed."
| throw0101c wrote:
| > _It never fails to sink me to my nadir, so I avoid watching
| it even if I love it so much._
|
| Of course the sound track to that scene is a Russian Orthodox
| religious chant:
|
| * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LVHl3HTBoA
| foobarbecue wrote:
| FYI, many people who spent time at McMurdo around the filming
| of Encounters are not big fans. The interviews were
| intentionally set up to make people look weird. The narration
| implies there's something wrong with "polar people." You might
| find us dissapointingly normal.
|
| A Year On Ice is a more accurate representation.
|
| I'm in Frozen Planet, but you can't believe all the narration
| in that either.
| dpflan wrote:
| I can see that, with only a few hours of footage to portray
| the situation they want. Is there not something interesting
| or an underlying personality trait that makes the voluntary
| inhabitants of the frozen world different from the average
| person? How much time have you spent there?
| foobarbecue wrote:
| I suppose we're a little more adventurous on average than a
| random sample of Americans? Big spread there, though.
| Everyone's different.
| foobarbecue wrote:
| 7 summer seasons, about 2 months each. Most of that was in
| a tent up on Erebus, but about a week transitioning through
| McMurdo at the beginning and end of each season.
| dpflan wrote:
| Interesting, doing field research?
| foobarbecue wrote:
| Yeah, here's a taste:
| https://aaroncurt.is/frozenplanet.html
| hcrisp wrote:
| I remember watching this. Turns out BBC Natural History
| documentaries are more theater than just documentaries.
| If you watch the "making of" clips at the end of some of
| the series, you do get the sense that they may not be
| just captured natural footage as much as highly-scripted
| activities with the actions of the cameramen, crew, etc.
| edited out. Still fun to watch, but isn't being
| manipulated as a viewer disingenuous for a studio that
| calls itself "Natural" History? Maybe a better name would
| be BBC Studios Artificial History Unit.
| morsch wrote:
| At this point I can't really enjoy documentaries like
| that anymore. I keep thinking "they brought a steadicam
| down there?" or "where is all that light coming from?"
| The fourth wall is thoroughly broken.
|
| Thanks, I'd rather watch a poorly lit Youtube video with
| a guy talking to his Gopro. I wonder what the equivalent
| of that would be for animal documentaries.
| foobarbecue wrote:
| The sentiment resonates, but on the other hand I took a
| lot of video in those caves and it's all unwatchable, so
| I have enormous appreciation for what the BBC did. It's
| an incredibly hard environment to film in and I was
| absolutely amazed by the final product. Gavin Thurston
| rigged up cables from ice screws in the cave walls and
| set up a travelling robot camera thing he designed on it.
| There was a huge amount of equipment and hard work; for
| example for the crater shots I helped them carry up an
| enormous crane system to the crater rim which didn't even
| produce any useful footage. Also, the BBC guys were so
| charismatic that they could talk their way around rules
| and into places. For example, the helicopter pilots
| flying in the crater did things that aren't normally
| allowed. So in a way it's fake, but actually when it
| comes to the cave visuals, their work captures the
| feeling of being there, which otherwise I would never
| really be able to share with anyone. It really is an
| unbelivably spectacular place and almost impossible to
| film.
| colechristensen wrote:
| I like the old Jacques Cousteau films where there's no
| fourth wall to break, the people making it are also a
| subject.
|
| I don't like the nature documentary that tries really
| hard to pretend the makers don't exist. I especially
| don't like how almost all of the sound is faked.
|
| Go ahead, bring a steadycam and a key light, just don't
| stage shit like a fake reality show. Id like to see
| what's actually out there. Also maybe don't take every
| opportunity to say how everything you're filming is
| doomed.
|
| https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6J1OzLHamQ8TdX5j2w3L2
| 53m...
| dpflan wrote:
| (Heh, a taste of fooBBQ.) Thank you for sharing. While
| we're here and discussing the documentaries: care to
| share a highlight anecdote of your time there?
| foobarbecue wrote:
| Oh man, so many stories. Well, here's a fun one. There's
| unfortunately a big divide between the contractor-
| employed support staff and the "beakers" (scientists like
| me) and I would try and break through the barrier
| sometimes. Had a brief romance with someone working in
| waste management (a "wastie"), so maybe that's how it
| started. But anyway, one day I was sitting in the McMurdo
| cafeteria at a table with people from Fuels ("fuelies")
| and people from Communications ("commies" ... yeah)
| someone asked me what I do and I said "I work up on
| Erebus." A fuelie looks daggers at me and goes "Oh yeah!?
| Well I work on the FUCKING MOON!" and storms off.
|
| There were a lot of people at McMurdo for whom Antarctica
| wasn't quite the adventure they'd hoped it would be.
| credit_guy wrote:
| That short clip is absolutely breathtaking. Thank you for
| sharing.
| navi0 wrote:
| Just curious, what's the male:female ratio of the typical
| winter crew?
| davidw wrote:
| Curious what that drive from McMurdo is like. Do they have a
| regular ice road? Or do they just follow directions "Uh, keep
| going south. Can't miss it"
| qikInNdOutReply wrote:
| Closest you get to the "another" world experience on this planet.
| That and mount everest.
| reidjs wrote:
| Except that Mount Everest is full of people supposedly.
| chasd00 wrote:
| Mount Everest is full of trash and bodies too iirc. There's a
| couple spots where you pass bodies on the way up that no one
| will recover.
| zikduruqe wrote:
| And those bodies are waypoints. For example "green boots".
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Boots
| throwboatyface wrote:
| Certainly full of bodies.
| qikInNdOutReply wrote:
| Somebody has to be the step of the stair to success on the
| motivational calendar.
| DoctorDabadedoo wrote:
| And trash.
| mLuby wrote:
| And Iceland's rocky beauty. And deserts.
| macabe wrote:
| This is a great read. Not sure if it is answered in another post,
| but what is the story behind your decision to leave San Francisco
| for the South Pole?
| rodolphoarruda wrote:
| The "About" page shows an interesting fact. This guy applied to
| the work position in Antarctica back in 2017 and it took almost
| 2k days for the hiring team to get back to him for the next steps
| of the hiring process. Quite a long wait, but I guess it was
| worth it. A "one in a billion" lifetime opportunity.
| hgsgm wrote:
| It's ~5000 people per year, 1 in a million humans per year (and
| of course most humans aren't interested in going)
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| As someone who has lived rather isolated for long stretches, I
| think the one thing that helps fight feeling isolated is to find
| your joy and practice it. My joy is in creative outlets. When I'm
| alone, I sing, woodwork, cook new recipes, garden [indoors or
| out], sew. If I had a large indoor space I'd probably practice
| slacklining, aerial arts, tumbling, parkour, climbing. And then
| there's the computer, where I can create music and endless
| programs, websites. I haven't even touched on painting, drawing,
| playing music. And all that can be supplemented by podcasts,
| music, movies/TV, reading, chores, working out. There's really
| _so much_ to do indoors if you can cultivate a creative mindset.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Or, instead of all that. You can spend your entire summer at
| the south pole playing a _single_ game of Factorio.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| the joke's lost on me? I know the game (never played it,
| though) but why "a single game"?
| tomalpha wrote:
| A single game of Factorio can take a long time. Mine
| usually take around 100 hours.
|
| The craving to (tweak|move|refactor|grow) the base for
| certain personality types that are richly represented on HN
| can mean you can spend hundreds more on it too.
| recursiveturtle wrote:
| The...base...must...grow...
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| These stories about the logistics at Amundsen-Scott are a
| fascinating glimpse at the level of logistical complexity that'd
| be required for an off-planet (Moon, Mars...) base.
|
| Every time I see people get excited about Martian human
| habitation, I note a lack of discussion of the essential
| intermediate step: a fully self-sustaining base in the most
| inhospitable parts of Earth.
|
| Where are the Biosphere++ projects?
|
| And Amundsen-Scott has it easy: pressure, oxygen levels, and dust
| aren't a problem! (granted: Martian equator has easier
| temperatures).
|
| Also, I've long wondered what is the comparable level of yearly
| insolation (for viability of solar power) in the South Pole
| compares to Mars' equator?
| ReptileMan wrote:
| The first people on mars will be self replicating robots. Due
| to the way the exponential function works - I think enough
| terraforming could be done really fast.
| nine_k wrote:
| But will humans be welcome afterwards?
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