[HN Gopher] Alexander the 'Accursed' and Zoroastrianism
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Alexander the 'Accursed' and Zoroastrianism
Author : benbreen
Score : 61 points
Date : 2023-02-15 06:30 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blogs.bl.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (blogs.bl.uk)
| mxxc wrote:
| not sure to which degree current islamic republic brainwashing
| has messed up with this but many "modern not too or not at all
| religious iranians" call alexander the great just "alexander" and
| don't have a good view of him.
| fakedang wrote:
| Not much with the Islamic Republic than with the Shah regime,
| which went on a run glorifying the old Achaemenid and Sassanid
| empire over even the Safavid empire.
| [deleted]
| neaden wrote:
| I mean, Alexander was if nothing else a pretty bad guy to be be
| around. Just ask his friend Cleitus who saved Alexander's life
| but would later get killed by him in a drunken fight.
| Ialdaboth wrote:
| To be fair, binge drinking (and its share of drawbacks) when
| celebrating military victories was very much a big feature of
| Macedonian culture.
| Eumenes wrote:
| yeah, he was a young violent warlord, not unlike his
| contemporaries, but had some redeeming qualities of honor and
| respecting the culture of places he conquered, which was
| unusual for the time.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Isn't the original article an example of him disrespecting
| the culture of the place he conquered?
| SuoDuanDao wrote:
| An Elon Musk of the ancient world.
| bigbillheck wrote:
| Not really, Alexander actually did stuff.
| ZephyrP wrote:
| Do you see this is an expression of secular "neo-Persian"
| nationalism, or as part of a reaction to Iran's religious
| conservatives who'd read literal truth in the Quran's story of
| a heroic Zuul al Qarayn (whom I've heard is identified with
| Alexander)?
| projectramo wrote:
| That could just be part of the secular trend of re-assessing
| the records of "conquerors" across the world. Some people
| consider Napoleon, Alexander and so on to be glorified warlords
| who happened to win but are essentially mass murderers like
| non-western conquerors (Attila the Hun and so on).
| eternalban wrote:
| No, it is not.
|
| Alexander was/is (ridiculously, par per course in this
| matters) considered by "doctors of religion" to be Zal
| Qurnain (the Two Horned one) mentioned in Sura 18 (The Cave)
| in the Qur'an. I personally think Carl Jung had a firmer
| grasp on the meaning of Sura 18 than most of these scholars.
| But anyway, the two-horned one was a "servant of God" who had
| 'divine proxy power' to "punish or reward as you see fit". He
| sets up the molten metal wall to protect against "Gog and
| Magog" (which should cause spiritual discomfort vis a viz IRI
| & CCP /g). He travels far and wide.
|
| Two horns in spiritual context:
| https://aleteia.org/2021/08/23/the-reason-why-
| michelangelos-...
|
| There is a distinct pro-Roman anti-Persian element to the
| Qur'an which (regrettably for the divine word set) maps
| exactly to geopolitical alliances of client states of the
| contemporary contending Roman and Persian Empires at the time
| of Islam's arrival on the scene. (It is fascinating that Rome
| 2.0 -- British Empire and then US -- also have an affinity
| for Arabs vs Persians.)
|
| So, obviously no son or daughter of Iran would care to
| _celebrate_ the person that caused the demise of the
| Hakhamanesh empire.
|
| -- "that must be Eskandar!" --
|
| https://carm.org/islam/quran-surah-18/
|
| 83. And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: "I shall recite
| to you something of his story."
|
| 84. Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him
| the means of everything.
|
| 85. So he followed a way.
|
| 86. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he
| found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water.
| And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by
| inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or
| treat them with kindness."
|
| 87. He said: "As for him (a disbeliever in the Oneness of
| Allah) who does wrong, we shall punish him; and then he will
| be brought back unto his Lord; Who will punish him with a
| terrible torment (Hell).
|
| 88. "But as for him who believes (in Allah's Oneness) and
| works righteousness, he shall have the best reward,
| (Paradise), and we (Dhul-Qarnain) shall speak unto him mild
| words (as instructions)."
|
| 89. Then he followed another way,
|
| 90. Until, when he came to the rising place of the sun, he
| found it rising on a people for whom We (Allah) had provided
| no shelter against the sun.
|
| 91. So (it was)! And We knew all about him (Dhul-Qarnain).
|
| 92. Then he followed (another) way,
|
| 93. Until, when he reached between two mountains, he found,
| before (near) them (those two mountains), a people who
| scarcely understood a word.
|
| 94. They said: "O Dhul-Qarnain! Verily! Ya'juj and Ma'juj
| (Gog and Magog) are doing great mischief in the land. Shall
| we then pay you a tribute in order that you might erect a
| barrier between us and them?"
|
| 95. He said: "That (wealth, authority and power) in which my
| Lord had established me is better (than your tribute). So
| help me with strength (of men), I will erect between you and
| them a barrier.
|
| 96. "Give me pieces (blocks) of iron," then, when he had
| filled up the gap between the two mountain-cliffs, he said:
| "Blow," till when he had made it (red as) fire, he said:
| "Bring me molten copper to pour over it."
|
| 97. So they [Ya'juj and Ma'juj (Gog and Magog)] were made
| powerless to scale it or dig through it.
|
| 98. Dhul-Qarnain) said: "This is a mercy from my Lord, but
| when the Promise of my Lord comes, He shall level it down to
| the ground. And the Promise of my Lord is ever true."
|
| 99. And on that Day [i.e. the Day Ya'juj and Ma'juj (Gog and
| Magog) will come out], We shall leave them to surge like
| waves on one another, and the Trumpet will be blown, and We
| shall collect them all together.
| derecho1412 wrote:
| The vast majority of Muslims, "doctors of religion" or
| otherwise, have never identified Dhul Qarnayn with
| Alexander and even those who did considered it a
| possibility rather than a certain thing. If you took a
| survey today, only a small fraction would say it might be
| Alexander. The view that it was Alexander is much more
| common in western circles, probably because the colonialist
| mind wanted to identify a western figure as having
| tremendous importance in Islam and among Muslims.
|
| Alexander is much more popular among Muslims today and
| historically because of his aptitude as a military
| commander, just as he is in the west.
| tboyd47 wrote:
| This is because the Romans practiced a form of Christianity
| (and still do), which Islam recognizes as a revealed (yet
| corrupted) religion, while the Persians were idol-
| worshipers. I agree that it is fascinating that this
| geopolitical orientation is still in place since the time
| of the Qur'an's revelation.
|
| I don't think you're correct in saying that the scholars
| agree that Dhul-Qarnain is Alexander. The opinions I've
| heard rule Alexander out. What I've always heard is that
| the identity of Dhul-Qarnain is one of those details in
| Qur'anic exegesis that are not known with total certainty,
| like the identity of Al-Khidr in the same surah. Cyrus the
| Great has been floated as another candidate, though [0].
|
| ---
|
| [0] https://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/zolqarnain
| _cyru...
| eternalban wrote:
| (Don't know why you are downvoted). Thank you for your
| reply. I think at the time when "great" was appended to
| Eskandar's name, so it became a norm, it was a held
| opinion, but tbh I don't have authoritative knowledge of
| this bit.
|
| It is possible that Sassanid's had slipped into "idol
| worship" (promoting a couple of angels into some sort of
| Iranian pseudo-pantheon had already occurred) but note
| that there are no idols in Zoroastrianism itself. Fire is
| effectively a natural phenomena 'icon'.
| tboyd47 wrote:
| I'm not an expert on Zoroastrianism but just relating
| something that's come in Muslim tradition.
|
| "The idolaters wanted the Persians to prevail over the
| Romans, because they were idol worshipers, and the
| Muslims wanted the Romans to prevail over the Persians,
| because they were People of the Book."
|
| http://m.qtafsir.com/Surah-Ar-Room/Foretelling-the-
| Victory-o...
|
| We may just be splitting hairs, but I would be slacking
| if I had a reference and didn't provide it.
| glitchc wrote:
| Calling Persians idol worshippers sounds revisionist and
| is materially incorrect. Persians were more attuned to
| natural symbols. Noting that Muslims pray to a stone in
| Mecca, would you call that idol worship?
| derecho1412 wrote:
| Muslims don't pray to a stone, they pray towards the
| Mosque in Mecca, where the stone happens to be and is
| only used as part of a ritual during the Hajj pilgrimage.
| There was a period of history where the stone had been
| removed from its current place and that did not change
| the direction of prayer.
|
| Also, idol worship is a misnomer and mistranslation. From
| an Islamic perspective, associating anything other than
| God alone in worship would fall into the category of
| polytheism and paganism, it does not have to be literal
| idols. Hence, zoroastrians are included in our definition
| of pagans or polytheists. Frankly, it's really telling
| how the HN crowd is speaking so confidently about Islam
| all over this thread while not really having any idea.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| tboyd47 wrote:
| You know, you're right about most of what you said, but
| when I looked into it, it seems that idol worshiper is
| the correct translation. In ibn Kathir you can find the
| narration. It's not a hadith but this at least shows that
| it's not a mistranslation or a revisionist stance. [0]
|
| kana lmushrikuwna yuHibWuwna 'an taZhara farisu `ala~
| lrWuwmi; li'anWahum 'aSHabu 'awthanin
|
| I wasn't trying to offend anyone, just giving context.
| Maybe it comes down to whether you consider fire an idol.
| Muslims certainly would, but if you don't, I understand
| why you would take exception to that. Either way, it
| seems obvious that Christianity is closer to Islam than
| Zoroastrianism because of our shared belief in Jesus and
| the Israelite prophets. I wanted to highlight this in
| regards to the Roman-Arab connection. That was really my
| point, not to pass judgment on ancient Persians' beliefs.
|
| [0]: http://www.quran-wiki.com/surah-
| overview.php?sura=30&aya=1
| glitchc wrote:
| Hit a nerve, did I? And yet folks, you included, are
| speaking about Zoroastrianism without having any idea.
| For the record, Zoroastrianism is widely recognized as a
| monotheistic faith, in fact the world's oldest recorded
| monotheistic faith [1]. The characterization as pagan or
| polytheistic is an Islamic interpretation and has no
| basis in truth.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism
| [deleted]
| sandGorgon wrote:
| For those who dont know, Zoroastrians migrated to India to escape
| persecution, where they are today called Parsis.
|
| The cool thing is that they are India's smallest (officially)
| ethnic population, however have had an OUTSIZED impact on India
| and the World. The unique culture (and names) are a signature
| element in Bollywood. And Zoroastrian food is an essential part
| of what defines Mumbai as a city -
| https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/08/t-magazine/parsi-food.htm... .
|
| But beyond that, Tata (which owns Jaguar Land Rover), Serum
| Institute of India (world's largest maker of vaccine including
| COVID vaccines), Godrej Industries, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre
| ...and many others are all Indian Zoroastrian enterprises.
|
| And of course, Farrokh Bulsara...also known as Freddie Mercury !
|
| But the really interesting thing is about how they treat their
| dead - Zoroastrians have their dead eaten by vultures. So the
| Indian govt operates one of the largest vulture breeding programs
| in the world, specifically for this purpose. These special
| "Towers of Silence" exist in every major city in India -
| especially in Mumbai, where the active Tower of Silence sits in
| the middle of what is considered the most expensive piece of real
| estate of the world.
| glitchc wrote:
| The biggest harm Alexander inflicted on Zoroastrianism was to
| kill all of the priests. Zoroastrianism has a tradition of oral
| transmission from priest to navar (newly minted priest), which is
| maintained to this day. Mass killing disrupted an entire
| generation and we are still grappling with the aftermath today,
| as we gather snippets from here and there to reconstitute what
| was lost.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| A while back I read a book called _Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms_
| about disappearing, often-obscure (at least to Westerners)
| Middle Eastern religions, which stretched its scope over to
| Iran /Persia at times and IIRC did treat of Zoroastrianism
| (maybe the least-obscure and least-nearly-extinct of the
| bunch).
|
| Reading it, a pattern emerged of common elements to most or all
| of these religions: 1) Not seeking converts--in some cases, not
| permitting them at all--and 2) mostly or purely oral
| transmission of traditions, often with a "mystery" element--
| i.e. steps of initiation required to learn the "deeper" levels,
| which were regarded as secret.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| Western Freemasons, I am looking at you
| dylan604 wrote:
| > 1) Not seeking converts--in some cases, not permitting them
| at all
|
| How does this not mean that ultimately, you run out of
| practitioners? Are only direct descendants allowed to take
| part?
|
| >often with a "mystery" element--i.e. steps of initiation
| required to learn the "deeper" levels
|
| Does this include things like having special glasses that
| allows decryption of the text until they were lost before
| ultimately losing the text itself?
| glitchc wrote:
| Not seeking converts is relatively recent in Zoroastrian
| history, correlated largely with their move to the Indian
| subcontinent. In ancient Persia, Zoroastrians were free to
| proselytize and priests free to convert. It is believed
| that there were multiple factions of Zoroastrianism at the
| time.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| > How does this not mean that ultimately, you run out of
| practitioners? Are only direct descendants allowed to take
| part?
|
| Yep, some have a _heavy_ focus on a kind of ethnocentrism
| or blood-continuity. Even marrying in sometimes won 't get
| you inducted (indeed, it may mean the other partner is
| shunned).
|
| > Does this include things like having special glasses that
| allows decryption of the text until they were lost before
| ultimately losing the text itself?
|
| Usually it means _not having texts_ , to any great degree,
| or having some but carefully guarding them. Think:
| Freemasons, but even more serious about keeping their
| proceedings and rules and ideas secret from outsiders.
| Often this is coupled with a mostly-oral tradition.
|
| Judaism's kind of an interesting variant on these--it _can_
| be a bit ethnocentric and exclusive (see: maternal lineage
| rules) and doesn 't really seek converts, but has also
| become enough things to enough people that joining some
| variant or another is usually possible, for outsiders; and
| it's heavy on only the initiated being able to meaningfully
| engage in theology, but, crucially, those proceedings are
| mostly in _letters_ (in the broad sense), and a great deal
| of it takes place more-or-less out in the open, such that
| one can walk into a book store and come out with an armful
| of deep Jewish theology without needing to ascend some
| rabbinical hierarchy first. You can see in Judaism a
| distorted version of these other, extremely-insular
| religions that are in decline, but with enough of a twist
| on their rules and practices to keep the religion vital and
| alive.
| qersist3nce wrote:
| In Sassanian sources he was refereed as "Alaksandar i hromay" and
| "Eskandar the Gajostak [accursed]".
|
| Note they used hromay (Roman) in spite of him being Greek,
| possibly due to Hellenic influence on Roman civilization.
|
| Accursed cause he burned the original Avesta and plundered eran-
| sahr (country of Iran) and moved all its gold to the original
| homeland.
|
| Fun fact, in Persian, the name of the country Greece is Yunan
| referring to the Iona region in western Anatolia (current day
| Turkey).
| _glass wrote:
| Roman, because that's how the Greeks named themselves at the
| time of the Sasanian Empire, being the time of Romania (a.k.a.
| the Byzantine Empire).
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Wow. I'm fully aware that the Byzantines called themselves
| the Romans until at least the fall of Constantinople, and
| still found that section of the article confusing. For some
| stupid reason it never occurred to me other people would call
| them Roman.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Same way a large number of European and Islamic empires
| continued to use some variation of Caesar to mean King or
| Emperor (eg. Tsar in Slavic cultures, Kaiser in Germanic
| cultures, Geysar/Qeysar/Kesar in Indo-Iranian and Ottoman
| culture)
| valarauko wrote:
| > Fun fact, in Persian, the name of the country Greece is Yunan
| referring to the Iona region in western Anatolia (current day
| Turkey).
|
| Same in Indian languages. Modern Indian languages borrow the
| Persian term, though more often Indians encounter the term in
| the name of the (still fairly popular in some circles)
| traditional system of medicine the Central Asians bought to
| India - Yunani.
|
| In Ancient India, from the time that Alexander came to India,
| the Greeks were referred to as Yavana. In ancient times, Greek
| mercenaries were common across the country, with Indo-Greek
| kingdoms based in North West India & Afghanistan for several
| centuries after Alexander. Greeks were so prevalent that the
| ancient sources apply the Yavana term to any outsider.
| a11r wrote:
| "Yunnani" medicine comes from the region of Yunnan [
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yunnan ] and is unrelated to
| Yunan.
| valarauko wrote:
| Nope, Yunani/Unani medicine in India is derived from the
| Greek system of Galen and developed by the Arabs.
|
| https://www.britannica.com/science/Unani-medicine/Modes-
| of-t...
|
| http://www.jtcm.org/yunani-medicine/
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unani_medicine?oldformat=true
| myth_drannon wrote:
| And in Hebrew it's Yavan. Probably Babylonian captivity
| influence.
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| Zoroastrianism is very confusing. As is Hinduism. Getting to the
| central tenants is rough.
| adictator wrote:
| [dead]
| yazaddaruvala wrote:
| Was brought up Zoroastrian. AMA
|
| Some central tenets:
|
| - Good thoughts lead to good words lead to good deeds.
|
| - Life shouldn't be a zero sum game. Therefore don't loot and
| pillage, don't tolerate looting and pillaging, no more
| sacrificing animals or people, instead grow food and grow
| populations.
|
| - The representation of god cannot be known, and best showcased
| through fire (or energy). I'd bet a lot of money that a Tesla
| Coil would also be an acceptable representation.
|
| - Otherwise, think critically and question intention and
| motivation of yourself and others to ensure it's "towards god
| rather than towards the devil".
| falaki wrote:
| @yazaddaruvala are you following the Indian branch of
| Zoroastrianism or the Iranian? How different are the
| traditions?
| anthk wrote:
| That's sound close to praising agriculture against
| hoarding/recollecting. Cain vs Abel. In the end Abrahamic
| religions are cults which make the sow and harvesting times
| sacred and "humanized". It's not a coincidence. The Holy week
| with Jesus' death and resurrection and harvesting times are
| the same.
|
| So, all Christians, Muslims and Jews are secretly
| celebrating... the Neolithic revolution.
| zdragnar wrote:
| It sounds close to it only if you read it overly literally.
|
| A more appropriate interpretation is "do not do things
| which take from others. do things which add to the world"
| where stealing and looting and sacrifices take away from
| others / the world, and growing, building and bearing
| children are adding new to the world.
| leobg wrote:
| Any good books you can recommend in connection with this way
| of life? Fiction, nonfiction, biographies. Anything that, in
| your view, reflects that spirit, or has a chance to give the
| reader an experience of it.
|
| (Am primarily interested because I like Nietzsche's Thus
| Spoke Zarathustra, which does borrow at least the name.)
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| Does Herodotus' characterisation sound rooted in
| Zoroastrianism?
|
| > paideuousi de tous paidas apo pentaeteos arxamenoi mekhri
| eikosaeteos tria mouna, ikhneuein kai toxeuein kai
| alethizesthai. _[The Persians] educate their boys from five
| to twenty years old, and teach them only three things: riding
| and archery and honesty_
|
| (iow "sit straight, shoot straight, and speak straight")
|
| NB. https://lsj.gr/wiki/ikhneuo suggests possible issues with
| the received (1920) english translation above, but I'd easily
| believe hunting (as to hounds) to imply riding.
| yazaddaruvala wrote:
| > Does Herodotus' characterisation sound rooted in
| Zoroastrianism?
|
| My assumptions: The Zoroastrian Persians of that time were
| "Zoroastrian" like today's Christian Americans are
| "Christian".
|
| > educate their boys from five to twenty years old,
|
| Based on how me, my family, and friends were all raised,
| yes education is paramount. It falls into "make life a
| positive sum game" or "grow". That seems fundamentally
| Zoroastrian.
|
| The exclusion of women strikes me as anti-Zoroastrian.
| Maybe this is a more modern ethos even for Zoroastrians.
| Every Zoroastrian, regardless of sex/gender, that I know is
| educated at least till 20, and past that if they desire
| it/finances accamodate).
|
| > and teach them only three things: riding and archery and
| honesty
|
| Making it exclusive to riding, archery and honesty seems
| non-Zoroastrian. Likely just pragmatic for their army or
| something. Even that seems off to me - they had farmers and
| mathematicians and engineers, etc. If I were guessing this
| is selection bias from likely his Greek roots, the ongoing
| wars, and living in a smaller city (I assume closer to the
| borders of the empire).
|
| The honesty does resonate, but its likely an incomplete
| translation. I'd assume they actually meant "noble"[0],
| which would be rooted Zoroastrianism. Where specifically
| they taught honesty as important, but caveated with
| pragmatism to withheld to ensure "high moral outcomes".
| "High moral outcomes" is very rooted in Zoroastrianism.
|
| [0] having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral
| principles and ideals.
| snapcaster wrote:
| These actually sound pretty solid, but I wonder if "Life
| shouldn't be a zero sum game" is an anti-competitive meme
| that it isn't safe for religions to adopt if they want to
| last or spread. Hopefully not :)
| ogogmad wrote:
| How much do we know about pre-Islamic Zoroastrianism, and is it
| something that modern Zoroastrians care about?
|
| I've heard that while modern Zoroastrianism is "dualist", this
| might have started as a concession to Islam, to prevent followers
| from being persecuted for idolatry.
| glitchc wrote:
| I recommend the Heritage Institute website if you are keen to
| learn more:
|
| http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/
| SuoDuanDao wrote:
| I always assumed that the dualism of modern Christianity and
| Islam came from Zoroastrianism - it's not an obvious feature of
| a monotheistic religion and it must have come from somewhere.
|
| That said, I suppose we're removed enough from the source
| material that it's very hard to be sure. But is there a
| competing theory for the origin of dualism in these religions?
| ch4s3 wrote:
| Manichaeism probably had a lot of influence on early
| Christianity including introducing dualism, but its hard to
| say. St Augustine started his religious journey as with
| Manichaeism and it certainly influenced his thinking and
| writing which in turn influenced later Christian thinkers.
| monocasa wrote:
| What I've heard from religious scholars is that they think
| Christianity's dualism seems pretty inspired by
| Zoroastrianism, with the added insight that Judaism was
| originally polytheistic. There's therefore a lot of
| underlying assumptions in the religion primed for the idea of
| multiple god-like entities.
| dc-programmer wrote:
| The theory I've heard is that Christianity's dualism was
| inherited from Second Temple Judaism's cosmology. During
| that time there was a lot more interest in angels and
| demons among certain Jewish sects. In turn these beliefs
| may have been a result of syncretism with Zoroastrianism.
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