[HN Gopher] Biggest Barrier to Biking Is a Fear of Cars
___________________________________________________________________
Biggest Barrier to Biking Is a Fear of Cars
Author : jseliger
Score : 88 points
Date : 2023-02-14 21:14 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.treehugger.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.treehugger.com)
| goodgoblin wrote:
| I used to ride my bike to work in Boston, and one day I ran into
| the rear fender of a car who had cut me off, basically crashing
| into the car at pretty high speed, and the car didn't even
| notice.
|
| I realized that even if I was a master at city biking, through no
| fault of my own I could easily die or be seriously injured, and I
| haven't ridden a except for fun now and then since.
| realworldperson wrote:
| [dead]
| glonq wrote:
| Also a barrier to mopeds or motorcycles. Car drivers can become
| blind to non-car traffic.
| thot_experiment wrote:
| If you're interested in 13 minutes of beautiful art from a
| completely different viewpoint, I highly recommend checking out
| Lucas Brunelle's "Road Sage"
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPSxU8a8CwM
|
| This video changed my life.
| elijaht wrote:
| Easily the case for me around the NYC area. I biked
| recreationally both within the city and in Jersey on more country
| roads. The fear of getting hit in both scenarios eventually
| became to big for me, and I picked less dangerous forms of
| exercise. It's a shame as I never felt as free as when I was
| tooling around on my bike
| hackitup7 wrote:
| A friend of mine was a bike messenger in early 2000s NYC over
| the summer, and quit before the summer was out because he'd
| been hit by cars twice. It's such a shame as NYC's density,
| weather ~9mo out of the year, and elevation change all lend
| themselves to extensive biking.
| toshredsyousay wrote:
| That is one of the most frustrating things about bike advocacy
| in NYC. 90% of the people who would bike don't because they
| think it is dangerous, and then people at CB meetings say we
| don't need to build bike lanes because they don't see anyone
| biking. They think of it as a way to increase safety of
| existing bikers and not a way to draw in new bikers.
|
| And because of fractured nature of how these decisions are
| made, and the vetocratic nature of how our political system
| gives everyone a way to say 'no', every bike lane is a painful
| fight. And in the end, even if a bike lane gets built, the city
| doesn't actually put physical barriers to stop people parking
| cars in them. Then you factor in the lack of traffic
| enforcement in this city and the situation is pretty dire.
|
| That said, there has been very slow progress. Compared to 15
| years ago it is quite a bit better, but good lord it is a very
| drawn out fight. I try to encourage folks to show up to local
| community board meetings to advocate for bike lanes because I
| do think it makes a difference.
|
| Thinking about how much is within a 5-6 mile distance of you at
| any point in time in NYC, you can see the potential for NYC to
| be an incredible place to bike if we prioritized safety,
| pollution and efficiency when we allocate street space in the
| city.
| pacomerh wrote:
| This is the main reason I stopped biking to places in the city.
| Now I just use bike paths in places where they're wide. I've met
| people that take pride in bullying cyclists because of course
| when we drive we become the most impatient creatures in the
| planet.
| nayuki wrote:
| I'm even afraid of walking because of cars. Last week when
| crossing a driveway near where I live, twice a car blasted
| through the pedestrian crosswalk without even looking.
|
| Drivers are out of control and are blissfully (or willfully)
| unaware of the dangers they pose to others.
| realworldperson wrote:
| [dead]
| freeqaz wrote:
| I spend a lot of time fantasizing about what building a city
| "from scratch" would look like.
|
| It's a painful problem to actually make it happen because cities
| are all about network effects (you live there because people you
| know are there, etc). I just think it would be very appealing to
| me to live in a city that is optimized for biking + walking
| instead of having to own a car.
|
| If I were ever to get rich, this would be an area I'd throw
| funding at to figure out. Is anybody aware of any research in
| this area?
| 1attice wrote:
| Vancouver didn't start from scratch, but aggressively built out
| its cycling infra over the past two decades. I love bicycles, I
| love green tech, and I love my e-bike! But I also note these
| concomitants:
|
| - Rapid gentrification. Foot/bike accessible urban
| infrastructure turns out to be the hottest possible commodity.
|
| - Luxury pricing of car parking, insurance, and spacing. This
| seems harmless until you remember that e.g. poor people shop at
| box stores ( _which depend on a car to access_ ) in order to
| bring down the cost of living. Intentionally pricing car access
| as a luxury good makes the poor pay for climate progress.
| _Making cars more expensive to own and operate is an
| inflationary force that disproportionately afflicts the poor._
|
| - Gentrification + Inflation = Displacement. It's almost a joke
| at this point -- if your neighbourhood is putting in a bike
| lane, and you _don 't own your home_, you are basically
| watching them tidy up for the next tenant, who will be like
| you, but better-off, and will pay more in rent.
|
| When I see a bike lane getting put in, I know I'll be moving in
| a few years. And those twee little bicycle-lane-only traffic
| lights? Cute, right? Those are basically tombstones for your
| local art scene, because that whole block is 'going Vanhattan'
| (portmanteau of 'Vancouver' and 'Manhattan').
|
| Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with bikes, and I listed
| the above adverse outcomes as 'concomitants', and not side-
| effects. I don't want to suggest that the lines of causality
| are that clear.
|
| But talk about 'optimizing' cities is fundamentally talk about
| redistributing those cities, and redistribution creates (or
| effaces) winners and losers.
| 8note wrote:
| > Luxury pricing of car parking, insurance, and spacing
|
| This is a transition problem more than anything. Those are
| used by poor people today because the state subsidizes that
| way of shopping. If the state subsidizes a different way of
| shopping, that will become the cheap way of shopping
| mercutio2 wrote:
| The book "Car Free Cities" is a beautiful imagining of what
| would be possible if we built from scratch, attempting to
| connect concepts in cities like Venice that actually are car
| free.
|
| The book itself is a beautiful physical object. I really wish
| we could do cities from scratch.
|
| https://carfree.com/book/
| acchow wrote:
| The network effects evolve over time because people move. As a
| city increases bike friendliness, it will attract people to
| move there who want a livable/bikable life.
|
| As NotJustBikes has taught me, you don't have to start from
| scratch. Many cities in Europe were bulldozed for the car only
| to regret this decision decades later. Now you have bike
| utopias like Amsterdam.
| jlhawn wrote:
| You should check out Culdesac[1].
|
| [1] https://culdesac.com/
| newsclues wrote:
| unbroken network of parks with walking and biking paths that
| reach into every part of the city.
|
| Trains for intercity travel.
| reidjs wrote:
| If you get a chance visit Amsterdam and rent a bike, fantastic
| city for biking.
| mcv wrote:
| The entire country is. Amsterdam traffic is hell compared to
| many other Dutch cities and smaller towns.
| campbel wrote:
| Yep and I know this to be true because my family often
| vacations in places that have this as a core feature. It's
| easier in resort type areas for the reasons you mention. The
| freedom of biking and walking about is a great feeling.
| burlesona wrote:
| This is something that I'm working on and hope my next startup
| will be about, I know there are others interested in it. The
| problem is generally the regulatory environment, it's a
| surprisingly difficult thing to do in any habitable location.
|
| Marc Lore is working on this, throwing his billions into a
| concept for a new city out in the desert somewhere:
| https://cityoftelosa.com
|
| The team at Culdesac are trying this in a "compliant" way, they
| built an apartment complex with basically no parking in Tempe,
| AZ but are positioning it as a car-free neighborhood. I believe
| this is their prototype and they hope to scale it up in future
| projects, this is about as realistic of a path as I think
| anyone has.
|
| Building for cars is required by law across North America, and
| getting around that is quite hard.
| JohnFen wrote:
| There are many cities around the world that don't prioritize
| cars at all. None of them are in the US. We got pretty much
| screwed on this count -- the US wasn't always so car-centric,
| but then we got suckered into it only to discover that it's a
| trap after it's too late.
| jswrenn wrote:
| I fantasize about that, too. You might be interested in the
| work of Culdesac (https://culdesac.com/); they're building an
| expressly car-free neighborhood, from scratch.
|
| I'm optimistic that I can make strides closer to home. I have
| only ever lived in places that predated the advent of
| automobiles. At one time, they were very accessible via
| walking, biking, rail, and trolley. So, last fall, when I moved
| back to Providence, I made it my mission to get involved in
| local transit activism. It's been a great source of social and
| civic satisfaction, and I intend to repeat the exercise when I
| move again next Fall.
|
| It feels like positive change is (slowly) happening.
| sourcecodeplz wrote:
| And for good reason ... that's why they have bicycle lanes in
| west EU all over the place.
| FigurativeVoid wrote:
| My fear off cars has been going up recently, mostly because of
| extremely dangerous driving, aka people using their phones
|
| I was rear-ended because the driver behind me was on their phone.
| When I am driving now, all I can see is the amount of people that
| are looking at their lap and completely ignoring the road. I have
| even seen people watching TV while driving.
|
| This has made me, for better or worse, a really conservative and
| defensive driver.
|
| edit: grammar good
| trgn wrote:
| > The amount of people that are looking at their lap
|
| It's uncanny. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. That half
| cocked head, the periodic glancing up, one hand out of view.
| It's the posture of like half the drivers out there.
|
| It's new normal.
| extr0pian wrote:
| This. I was born and raised in Portland and recently moved to
| Austin, having cycled and driven in both (though primarily in
| Portland). Both are often celebrated as being bicycle friendly,
| however in both cities, taking public transportation gives you
| a view into people's vehicles while you pass by and it's scary
| just how many people are texting or scrolling their social
| media feed while driving.
|
| I think Austin is a bit more dangerous because 1) there are far
| more oversized pickup trucks driven by city people that reduce
| the driver's visibility (part of the whole "Texas identity"
| thing) and 2) the city finds it acceptable to allow/encourage
| cyclists onto streets where the speed limit is 55mph which are
| basically highway speeds (sometimes there are painted bike
| lanes, sometimes there isn't).
|
| Within the first few months of moving to Austin, I had a middle
| aged woman aggressively cut in front of me while I was riding
| down a hill and yell at me for riding in the street (which is
| not only legal, it's required for cyclists). Then follow me
| home in her pickup truck and try to call the police. Police
| never showed up, likely informing her she was in the wrong.
| burna_aws_acct wrote:
| In some states (e.g., Texas), drivers pride themselves on
| inducing fear in cyclists. Why? Cycling is viewed as a direct
| threat to their way of life.
|
| Quite a sinister and successful brainwashing campaign by car
| manufacturers and lobbyists.
| JohnFen wrote:
| What's the reasoning here? Do they think that someone is going
| to pull them out of their cars and force them to bike?
| PaulHoule wrote:
| It's been a controversial point among cycling advocates for
| years.
|
| One fear is that if a handful of bike lanes exist, cyclists will
| feel confined to them, that they don't feel it is safe and
| permissible to ride on the roads -- like you need to haul your
| bike on the back of an SUV to an authorized bike trail if you
| want to bike.
| hooverd wrote:
| On the other hand, I don't know if telling kids and families to
| just take the lane is the right approach.
| uneekname wrote:
| I think it depends on what kind of street it is.
|
| If I had my way, downtown areas would have very low speed
| limits, and narrower streets would discourage cars from going
| fast. People who need cars (or, make deliveries) could still
| use them, but the streets would be slow enough that
| pedestrians and cyclist would feel seen and in-control.
| Reason077 wrote:
| > _" If I had my way, downtown areas would have very low
| speed limits, and narrower streets would discourage cars
| from going fast."_
|
| Thankfully, this is exactly the sort of urban design we're
| gradually seeing more of, at least in many bigger European
| cities.
|
| New UK Department for Transport guidance is for all urban
| and residential streets to have 20 mph (~30 km/h) speed
| limits, down from 30 mph previously. It is, however, still
| up to local authorities to actually set those limits. In
| London, most streets have been 20 mph for a while now.
| ThatGeoGuy wrote:
| Vehicular cycling is such a ridiculous ideology and mantra.
| John Forester has done more damage to not-cars-means-of-
| transportation than pretty much any other person riding a
| bike, and many more outside of that group.
|
| The "Well there's your problem" podcast goes over a lot of
| his ideas in great detail [0]. The crux of it is what the
| above study says: if you want to encourage cycling you have
| to build dedicated infrastructure (and maintain that
| infrastructure in all weather and conditions) in order for
| people to view it as something reliable.
|
| The key is to avoid what the parent poster specified by just
| increasing supply: to assuage fears that there are "only a
| handful of bike lanes and paths (and thus cyclists fear they
| are confined)" is to just build more. It's vastly cheaper
| than our current car-focused infrastructure. Cities exist
| today that seem to figure this out without turning into
| Amsterdam, so surely the rest of us can figure it out as
| well.
|
| [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm29fd-s7tQ
| epakai wrote:
| Vehicular cycling at least puts you where drivers expect
| other vehicles to be coming from. It's a good choice in
| many situations. Being in pedestrian areas, riding as far
| right as possible (area-specific mandate), or in a bike
| lane makes you practically invisible in many cases.
|
| Cycling specific infrastructure can do a lot, but it can
| never be a solution for all destinations because of
| limitations enforced by pre-existing infrastructure.
| deadbeeves wrote:
| Nah. Unless you ride in a town where everyone rides and no
| one drives, you're gonna have to interact with cars at some
| point. It's just inevitable. You need to know how to ride
| on a road with other vehicles.
|
| I'm not convinced that the answer is just more
| infrastructure. IME, most bike paths are just bad. They're
| some combination of poorly designed, poorly made, or poorly
| maintained. There's one on the way to my office that has
| marked loading bays for trucks such that I have to keep
| getting off onto the car traffic because there's no way I'm
| passing between a vehicle and the sidewalk. Why would you
| build something like that there? And of course if you
| decide that it's just too risky to use the bike path people
| scream at you because they think they're entitled to that
| lane that you didn't even ask for.
| dkarp wrote:
| There's one particular bike lane on my commute that I hate.
| There are cars parked all along the road and it's a single line
| placed 3-4ft away from the average car. Any above average sized
| vehicle or poorly parked vehicle takes up some or all of the
| "bike lane".
|
| I refuse to cycle in it, but I can feel the judgement of every
| driver trying to pass me. I would much rather that cycle lane
| wasn't there.
| Reason077 wrote:
| What tends to happen in London is about 90% of cyclists use the
| bike lanes, while a few racing-bike hotshots will skip them
| (especially when congested) and use the car lanes. Usually
| those guys are easily fast enough to keep up with the cars on
| busy city streets anyway. There's certainly no rule, real or
| imaginary, that says if bike lanes exist then cyclists must use
| them. But having decent cycle lanes there absolutely does
| encourage more people to cycle!
| Symbiote wrote:
| With pressure from cycling groups over 10 years ago, it
| wasn't made a legal requirement for cyclists to use a cycling
| facility where one exists.
|
| That's not the case in every country. In Denmark, if there's
| a cycle path/lane you're required to use it.
| nicolapede wrote:
| As a regular commuter who cycles through Surrey and south
| London, I must say that most cycle lanes in London are a
| joke. They are either shared bus lanes (the good case, albeit
| you might get in trouble when multiple buses queue one after
| another) or half-a-meter wide ones, where cars are allowed to
| cross your lane from both sides. Sometimes using the car lane
| just seems safer than that.
| jmclnx wrote:
| 100% true for most people. I commuted by bicycle for decades and
| for me, I got used to it. But as time progressed and the number
| of autos, the size of these pickups and the road conditions, I
| can easily see why people are afraid. Also on the roads I
| commuted on, people started to drive much faster as time
| progressed. In 30mph (50kph) zones the ave speed now is around
| 50mph (80kph), back then people did not drive like that.
|
| Another thing, when I was young, large trucks were not allowed to
| drive inside City Boundaries in my US State, plus they were not
| allowed on the roads on Sundays. But that ended when Regean
| forced my State to de-regulate their Trucking Regulations in the
| 80s.
|
| So yes, I can see why people are afraid now.
|
| But one positive, now-a-days I do not get bottles or cans thrown
| at me and dogs are much more friendly :)
| PaulHoule wrote:
| This book
|
| http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/2014/01/foresters-effect...
|
| quoted accident statistics from the 1970s where it seemed every
| scenario other than the "cyclist gets hit from behind by a
| driver out of ignorance or malice" such as "cyclist hit dog",
| "cyclist hit parked car" (my worst cycling accident of all
| time), "cyclist hit cyclist" (I still think cops oughta arrest
| cyclist for rising in peloton), "cyclist got hit by driver in
| intersection because the bike lane had no visibility where it
| crossed the road" killed more cyclists.
|
| Newer accidents statistics seem to show the "hit from behind"
| accidents happen more than previously indicated, particularly
| in the American South.
| knorker wrote:
| Was there ever any doubt about this?
| awb wrote:
| It seems under acknowledged by the "share the road" signs, or
| bike lanes that are in between car lanes.
| quicklime wrote:
| For a long time, "vehicular cycling" was a big thing - the idea
| being that bicyclists should use the road as if they were
| driving a car. This put a lot of focus on teaching people how
| to ride a bike on the road, rather than designing safer
| infrastructure for them.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_cycling
| deadbeeves wrote:
| It makes sense, no? If someone wants to ride _now_ , they
| should know how to do it safely, not have to way until
| someone makes the road safe enough that they don't have to
| learn anything.
| seper8 wrote:
| I live in the Netherlands and biked (in almost any weather) to
| school for about 4km every day from ~8 years old.
|
| But I wouldn't dare bike to work in most places in the world...
| Even in Belgium I would hesitate to do this in the big cities.
| Reason077 wrote:
| Big cities tend to be the better and safer places to cycle in
| my experience. More cyclists on the streets, so cycling is
| "normal" and car drivers are used to seeing cyclists and know
| how to behave. Better cycle lanes and infrastructure. Generally
| slower traffic speeds so bikes are moving closer to the same
| speed as cars.
|
| In rural areas you may have _less_ traffic, but it will be
| travelling much faster, and not every driver may be paying
| attention and looking out for cyclists.
| gaoshan wrote:
| I've spent time living in China and where I was they had these
| fantastic protected bike lanes. They were double wide lanes that
| had an island (with a decorative but still robust and functional
| metal barrier down the center and attractive plants and trees all
| around it) protecting it from the traffic. It was like a bike
| specific roadway that only interacted with cars when crossing at
| intersections and it felt so safe that riding downtown in crazy
| Chinese vehicle traffic became a non-issue (they did need
| bollards at the entrances to these lanes otherwise someone in a
| smaller vehicle would eventually try to use it to get around the
| traffic). I wish we had that sort of system where I live in the
| US.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| they did need bollards at the entrances to these lanes
| otherwise someone in a smaller vehicle would eventually try to
| use it to get around the traffic
|
| In Beijing, many of these lanes (Fu Lu ) double as parking
| lanes. The side by the sidewalk is full of parked cars, and the
| side near the island is for bicycles, scooters and cars getting
| in/out of parking spots.
|
| Even though cars may be present anywhere in the Fu Lu , they're
| not going fast when looking for parking. So I still felt far
| safer cycling in Beijing (a city of 20MM people) than I do in
| San Francisco (sub-1MM).
| ryeights wrote:
| https://abc7news.com/oakland-cyclists-attacked-injured-doori...
|
| I wonder why...
| Hamuko wrote:
| The biggest obstacle for me has been the weather. If it rains,
| you get soaked and all of the shit from the road flies onto your
| clothes. And during winter, the roads are so icy and uneven that
| I'm worried I go tumbling downhill and slide right under a car.
|
| Helps that the bike path situation here is decent, where you're
| usually on a shared-use path with a curb, although you really
| need to pay attention when the bike path crosses a road. Some
| people just don't see you and others don't know that they
| actually need to yield to cyclists in quite a lot of
| intersections.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I've been commuting by bike daily for the last 20 years, and
| the only weather that I think is too unpleasant or dangerous to
| bike in is the same weather that cars shouldn't drive in, too
| (with one exception: wind. Lord, how I hate the wind).
|
| But, as with all other outdoor activities, I dress for it. I
| wear raingear when it rains, etc. I've been through plenty of
| downpours and have never arrived at my destination soaked, once
| I take the raingear off.
| favflam wrote:
| 1. Vehicular drivers have no incentive to care. The laws around
| liability have to be changed. 2. Cities have to deprioritize car
| traffic to below pedestrians, bicycles, buses/trams. Free parking
| mandated or provided by the city needs to be eliminated. Zoning
| for building dense hS to be loosened up. Thankfully, this trend
| is picking up.
|
| Car lifestyle is heavily subsidized by the state now.
| Spivak wrote:
| Wish granted! _monkey 's paw curls_
|
| * Bicycles are now granted the same "always have right of way"
| status as pedestrians. The ensuing panic following the damages
| payout for the first cyclist to be maimed by a vehicle causes
| local governments to enact laws restricting cyclists to
| designated bike lanes and sidewalks. The bill is sold as a
| measure to protect cyclists but it's really so insurance
| premiums for drivers don't go up. Since breaking local laws
| doesn't eliminate the liability the city police aggressively
| ticket cyclists who "jayride."
|
| * Minimum parking spaces mandated by the city go away. And
| nothing changes because parking spaces in tight areas are worth
| their weight in gold to the businesses that own them.
|
| * Zoning for multi-family homes and apartment complexes open
| up. Developers see $$$ and buy up land in trendy well-to-do
| areas and build "luxury" apartment complexes. It's great for a
| while until those apartment dwellers want more space and to
| stop paying rent forever and move to where you can still find
| affordable single family homes -- low income areas! Ooops, you
| wanted to avoid gentrification, right?
|
| You can't law your way out of a culture that likes cars and
| single family homes. You have to make a desirable end-state for
| people with kids and hobbies. This might work in SF where there
| is a huge amount of latent demand but in your average med sized
| city it'll backfire.
| mcv wrote:
| Solution seems simple to me: build more bike lanes and bike
| paths, especially in cities.
|
| Although honestly, sharing a road with cars isn't that big of a
| problem _as long as car drivers are responsible drivers_. Put
| more emphasis on interaction with bicycles in driver license
| tests, and keep the murderous idiots that you get in some
| countries off the roads.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-02-14 23:01 UTC)