[HN Gopher] Data-Free Disney
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Data-Free Disney
Author : docdeek
Score : 99 points
Date : 2023-02-14 09:35 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.publicbooks.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.publicbooks.org)
| mfwit wrote:
| The modern Disney Parks have a myriad of problems and one of them
| is definitely the insistence that guests utilize apps, etc but
| not because of the absolute paranoia outlined here.
| [deleted]
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Stopped reading after "extreme approach to data-privacy"
| especially that it's presented as some kind of virtue and not a
| borderline dysfunctional quirk.
| ploum wrote:
| Do you realize how far we have come if not wanting to install
| an app that track your movements/voices/actions on your phone
| and not wanting pictures of your children in shady databases is
| seen as "dysfunctional quirk" ?
|
| 15 years ago, when working in the automotive industry, I made
| the prototype of a GPS feature that would record your travels
| and use simple AI techniques to predict your next destination.
| Prototype was working really fine (all was done onboard, not
| connection to external servers). When I first demoed it, upper-
| management told me that "no one will ever agree to have a car
| that record your travels. That's too creepy!" That was 2008.
|
| This is exactly the point of such articles and experiments:
| demonstrating how creepy the world become and how people
| pointing it are seen as the weirdos.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| If you give me access to your email - and just your email, not
| your bank or anything like that - I will give you $10. It has
| to be your real, primary email, not a random unused second
| account or a bot account.
|
| I promise I'll only read your emails, keep a copy, and sell
| your data as I find it profitable. I won't reset your passwords
| or anything.
|
| $10 is more than what most other brokers will pay you for the
| same access, so this is a very good deal. If you really don't
| think your privacy is worth preserving, take me up on my offer.
| acdha wrote:
| They collect data because they see a business benefit. The only
| things which can change that will be regulation or people
| changing their spending habits. Spending money at their parks
| isn't going to change anything.
| birdman3131 wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34612732 was the companion
| discussion. To quote the author. "(Note: This is the companion
| post to my article at Public Books about evading data detection
| at Disneyland. For the fun story, read the Public Books version;
| for tech details and the "why" of my choices, read on here)."
| atestu wrote:
| > Starting before my kids were born, I made sure no private
| companies collected traceable data about them--at least, nothing
| that could be aggregated across services or platforms to identify
| them or to target me as a mom. I bought everything--from
| pregnancy tests to diapers to clothes--in cash. At home, I built
| up an entire alternative tech ecosystem: privacy-oriented
| browsers and blockers, firewalled machines and accounts, and
| multiple concurrent email addresses. I've never even swiped a
| credit card or a discount card for children's goods at the till.
| It's been nine years and counting, and I have yet to see a single
| ad for diapers, daycare, or summer camp.
|
| I love my privacy and my kids' but I don't understand this
| extreme behavior... She is worried that companies know she has
| kids? Can't they just pull public records to see that? Or read
| this article published under her full name with attached social
| media profiles?
|
| Personally I don't want to be tracked by Disney in the real
| world, but wouldn't mind it inside the park. Or, like another
| commenter pointed, just don't go. Disney will track you with or
| without a band (isn't every square inch of the place under CCTV?)
| m463 wrote:
| I believe this "extreme behavior" is very valuable to you and
| I.
|
| It sets the goalpost. Without defining privacy and standing up
| for it, the goalpost will be moved and pretty soon no privacy
| will be normalized.
|
| It helps define things for employees of these companies. If
| people inside the company never have to deal with someone who
| values their privacy, it will never be tested. This also helps
| employees that actually value privacy and sees what goes on
| inside.
|
| It sets and exacmple for others who value their privacy and
| don't know what they can do to protect it.
|
| It prompts discussion. And hopefully laws.
|
| As a related example, Richard Stallman might be controversial
| in his behavior (he doesn't use proprietary software, or use a
| phone), but years after he created the GPL it is pretty obvious
| he was onto something and has helped us.
| [deleted]
| volleygman180 wrote:
| The author seems a bit too paranoid, if you ask me. I stopped
| reading the article when they mentioned that "Disneyland.com
| didn't work on Tor"
| coyotespike wrote:
| I'm with both of you.
|
| I was an early ProtonMail and ProtonVPN supporter and for
| years would only chat to family members over Signal. I'm
| conscious of how my phone can track me and of the benefits of
| using cash.
|
| But I still can't see how avoiding Disney tracking is for her
| kids' "safety". The Mouse doesn't loom so large in my mind.
| And I can't judge family members for making the judgment call
| that they don't really care what Facebook and Google collect
| about their online activity.
| ploum wrote:
| The point is not to be paranoid about what will happen if
| data leak, the point is to stick to "I don't want my data
| shared without my consent" and see what happens.
|
| We badly need more experiment like those because this tell
| a lot about our society!
|
| It's exactly like vegan diets. You have moral principles
| and you try to see how far/how difficult it is to apply
| them. This also helps other realize what is happening/what
| they are missing.
|
| I admire her because I would be like her before having
| kids. As they say: "I had principles. Now I have kids.".
| kleiba wrote:
| You've got to understand that you kids have been raised in
| different times.
|
| In the 1980's, the German state tried twice to do a census of
| the population. Twice the protests by the people were so
| vivid, that they failed to do them. In 1983, the highest
| German court declared the planned census unconstitutional and
| in 1987, protests on May 1st turned into violence over this
| issue.
|
| In 2022, Germany did a census again. There was basically no
| public objection.
| NovaDudely wrote:
| Another data point, here in Australia we do a census every
| 5 years. Never really heard any objection other than it is
| annoying.
| snapcaster wrote:
| Germany has a very unique history when it comes to how
| records of their population were used...
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| It's a thought exercise brought into the real world. Useful to
| have journalists try these things out and let us know how
| plausible various strategies are.
|
| "Don't go" is a valid one but thought-terminating.
| ploum wrote:
| The "don't go" is also very telling because it might not
| always be possible.
|
| What if those principles are extended to, say, public
| transports? Public services? Shops? Stadium?
| soiler wrote:
| I'm wondering if she wore facemasks in grocery stores before
| the pandemic? Or else they're probably tracking her purchasing
| behavior anyway by video. Maybe not 9 years ago but surely by
| now.
| dom96 wrote:
| Great article. Some curiosities:
|
| > The names on the tickets don't have to match any government-
| issued ID, Allison explained.
|
| This probably doesn't extend to hotel bookings, so if you're
| travelling to Disney (which many families are) and staying on
| property you're kinda screwed, no? Even if you're not staying on
| property you still need to give you details to some company.
|
| > Still, there's simply no way to avoid pulling your mask down
| for portrait photos at the gate. That's simply "for your safety,"
| Allison intoned.
|
| Portrait photos at the gate? Does Disney require children to get
| a photo attached to their ticket so they can be found if lost?
|
| As a side note: I created https://mousetrack.co.uk to track
| prices of the tickets and hotels at Disneyworld. Hopefully me
| gathering this data can be considered a way to fight back against
| their data gathering.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| In the US, you generally only need to provide the ID/name of
| one person responsible for booking. A lot of hotels don't
| really even push verifying the id too hard as long as they have
| a credit card on file. As an American it is always jarring to
| me when I travel and I get my passport photocopied/details
| taken at a hotel. Disney might have a different policy, but
| hotels generally don't register children or more than one guest
| in my experience. Until the last few years you didn't even need
| ID to fly in the US
|
| The portrait photos at the gate for finding lost kids are a
| great idea. But only if Disney is very clear that the portrait
| is only retained for the time the ticket is valid, and then
| deleted.
|
| The problem is that most companies in the US basically retain
| the right to do whatever they want with your data even if they
| only plan to use it in a very limited fashion.
|
| If only there were a law that required them to enumerate
| specifically how your data gets used...
| jaclaz wrote:
| >As an American it is always jarring to me when I travel and
| I get my passport photocopied/details taken at a hotel.
|
| To clarify, it is not like hotels outside the US have fun
| gathering the info, in many countries it is required by Law
| to transmit info about guests (including children) to the
| Police.
| jaywalk wrote:
| The photos are used for re-entry to the park. They prevent you
| from handing off your ticket to someone outside the park, since
| your photo will pop up for the employee to verify the next time
| it's scanned at the gate.
| dangus wrote:
| Living this way sounds exhausting. Using fake names, putting on
| facial recognition-defeating face paint, using burner phones to
| go to a theme park...
|
| Once these kids move out on their own they're going to have a
| hard time adjusting to the rest of society's social norms in the
| same way that homeschooled, extremely religious, or children
| raised in other socially or technologically isolated ways have to
| adjust as the real world suddenly hits them outside of the
| influence of their parents.
|
| A mild example of this is the disparity between 90s kids who grew
| up with and without cable. The ones who grew up without it have
| an entire set of pop culture references that are completely
| unheard of to them. It's not really a big deal or anything, but
| it's a good analogy.
|
| Disney just wants to sell you shit and manage the flow of traffic
| in the busiest theme parks in the world.
|
| They're not trying to generate your social credit score to
| forward to the draconian authoritarian governments of the world.
|
| Plus, you can do everything right and your bank or credit agency
| might still leak your personal info in a breach like Equifax and
| Capital One.
| timdiggerm wrote:
| Surely the solution is to just not go to Disney
| yurodivuie wrote:
| Wait till you hear about grocery stores.
| asdff wrote:
| Or roads
| jsf wrote:
| Where's the fun in that?
| andrew_eu wrote:
| I spent the majority of the last 30 years in Florida, and the
| theme parks were a regular past time. Disney World, but also
| Busch Gardens Tampa, SeaWorld, and Universal. All of them have
| gone down this path, though Disney is probably the most
| insidious. At the other parks, even with a paper ticket, your
| fingerprint is scanned to prevent people from sharing tickets.
| Disney used to do this too, but they stopped a few years ago. I
| didn't pay much mind to it, but the article reminded me: they can
| just use facial recognition.
|
| Visiting Disney parks without using the app is a distinctly
| inferior experience. This is no accident. It isn't possible
| anymore to book a dining reservation sans app, likewise to check
| queue times (unless you walk to the ride entrance), likewise
| fastpasses. The app is more convenient, but only because they
| actively make the parks less convenient. The quality of the
| rides, the scenery, the staff/cast, and the mis en scene have all
| been slowly degrading over the past 10+ years or so. Despite
| that, prices nearly doubled I think.
| flutas wrote:
| > It isn't possible anymore to book a dining reservation sans
| app
|
| The website? [0]
|
| > likewise to check queue times (unless you walk to the ride
| entrance)
|
| There's giant digital signage around the park with wait times?
| [1]
|
| > likewise fastpasses
|
| Don't exist anymore, but correct (except for CS options in the
| park) for the new paid version. Previously you could get them
| at kiosks around the park.
|
| > The quality of the rides, the scenery, the staff/cast, and
| the mis en scene have all been slowly degrading over the past
| 10+ years or so.
|
| Fully agree.
|
| [0]: https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/dining/#/reservations-
| acce...
|
| [1]: https://www.micechat.com/247615-disneyland-update-the-
| resist...
| [deleted]
| jaywalk wrote:
| Disney World still does fingerprint scans. I think they paused
| it for a while due to Covid, but it's definitely in place
| today.
| chaostheory wrote:
| What the author doesn't realize is that both data collection and
| tracking are responsible for one of the best Disney amusement
| park innovations in years: minimizing the wait in lines. I would
| rather walk around and enjoy things with an app telling me when
| to wait in line as opposed to being trapped in a giant and never
| ending queue all day.
|
| Disney parks have always been a mass surveillance zone for
| decades in the name of safety and security, regardless of whether
| or not you opt into their modern tech. If you don't like it,
| don't go to their parks.
| ok123456 wrote:
| Scheduling amusement park rides through an app seems like a new
| circle of hell.
| eddieroger wrote:
| Some people, like me, really like to plan. It's nice to know
| I can walk up to a ride and get on it in a few minutes rather
| than rush a park and hope to get in early enough that I don't
| lose my whole morning to waiting in line for ten minute
| attraction. To me, that kinda sounds like a new circle of
| hell, but to each their own.
| misterprime wrote:
| Similar result, but different route for me: Planning, I
| hate: "I'm using this time and energy to figure out how I'm
| going to use my time and energy." Waiting in line, I hate
| even more: "I want to do something and am delayed due to
| these other people that want to do the same thing." Using
| an app to avoid lines sounds like a good solution.
| hoosieree wrote:
| "It's like Uber, but for waiting in line"
| asdff wrote:
| OTOH its convenient. Say you live in socal with a pass and
| want to ride the new ride with a virtual queue. You can just
| sit on your couch at home and see if you get in the queue and
| if its even worth it to go to the park that day. If they
| didn't have that system, it would be a crapshoot and probably
| like a 2 hour wait. This way you can estimate when you need
| to be there and can basically walk on. Then if you want food,
| once again, turn to the app, schedule a pickup window when
| you are going to be over there, hit a button on the app, walk
| up and grab it, versus waiting in line.
| dang wrote:
| Recent and related:
|
| _Data-Free Disneyland_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34612732 - Feb 2023 (211
| comments)
| foxbee wrote:
| > The kids met their Pixar heroes and had a lightsaber duel with
| Chewbacca. Meanwhile, I was riding high on my own personal "spy-
| versus-spy" adventure the whole day.
|
| It's critical to always have a secret mission on these occasions.
| Great, fun read!
| xnacly wrote:
| Thats some dedication, i applaud the author for keeping her kids
| private
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(page generated 2023-02-14 23:02 UTC)