[HN Gopher] When feeling worn out, rotate
___________________________________________________________________
When feeling worn out, rotate
Author : mooreds
Score : 149 points
Date : 2023-02-13 15:47 UTC (7 hours ago)
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| webscout wrote:
| [dead]
| tarokun-io wrote:
| Sometimes, composing/playing music renovates and refreshes me
| after too much coding.
|
| Sometimes, after a few consecutive days (or weeks) of hard work
| (like learning new frameworks while trying to deliver features at
| "normal" speed) I'm completely unable to play or compose music.
| My brain just won't work at all.
|
| In these cases, sometimes I cannot even read light fantasy or
| cook basic meals.
|
| One thing is to be bored of or frustrated with something (which
| is important too -- we don't live to work --, but this is a
| separate topic), and another completely different thing is
| repeatedly going over what your bodily and/or mental health can
| take, for weeks or months on end.
|
| I think rotating is good advice, but it works more on motivation
| than exhaustion.
| aartav wrote:
| If you can be restored from simply doing a different task, then
| its not real burnout.
|
| As someone who has undergone real burnout from burning the candle
| at both ends for to long, I wish it was this simple. Its
| sometimes called a mental or nervous breakdown, and the only real
| solution is to disconnect from everything you can (hard to
| disconnect from kids), and just try to get back to a stable
| place. For me that was living in a Costa Rica for 3 months with
| no TV and spotty slow internet. The only thing you can do is sit
| on the veranda and relax.
| parpfish wrote:
| It's the opposite for me. If disconnecting and taking a break
| provides relief, the problem was overwork/exhaustion/fatigue
| and not "burnout". Burnout is something deeper that and more
| closely related to depression, and no amount of time off will
| fix it if you just end up coming back to the same environment.
|
| Strangely enough, the fix to burnout can be finding
| different/more engaging work to help overcome the cynicism and
| sense of hopelessness.
| gopalv wrote:
| > If you can be restored from simply doing a different task,
| then its not real burnout.
|
| > the only real solution is to disconnect
|
| So I was trying to deal with my dad's tragical slide into
| depression by convincing him that the monsters he's fighting
| aren't "real".
|
| And he asked me a question bluntly one day (in my own native
| tongue, where it sounded heavier).
|
| "What is real to you? Is what you experience real and what I
| experience not real?"
|
| The problem with defining this sort of reality from a personal
| view point is that someone's biggest problem in their life so
| far might be the 100% on their scale.
|
| It sure was in my case, my burn out was showing up in my weight
| (was 54kg at 6'2), while my dad ended up ending his life over
| work stress. And I still think my situation was worse than his,
| but just that I was still bouncy when I hit rock bottom.
|
| So what someone shares as a real problem and a solution might
| work for them and a million others (because that's a 1 in an
| eight million shot), which makes it totally real for them.
|
| Also If something works for you, sharing it doubles its
| effectiveness - socially and personally.
| LesZedCB wrote:
| burnout is not a competition and this response suggests you may
| not have learned what you need to from your break....
|
| you can get normal human levels of exhausted without going
| bonkers unhealthy woeking through it.
|
| OP is a sustainable and healthy tactic
| haswell wrote:
| It's not about competition - it's about accuracy in
| communication and clarifying when the advice may or may not
| be helpful.
|
| If someone is struggling with motivation one day, there are a
| number of "get motivated" tricks that may help.
|
| If that person is struggling with motivation due to
| depression, and has been for awhile, that motivation advice
| is going to fall flat.
|
| Burnout and being "worn out" or "fatigued" are often very
| different things, despite the fact that the latter two are
| symptoms of the former.
| parpfish wrote:
| i agree. i got my worst bout of burnout while at a very
| cushy job where i was chronically underworked. it took me
| forever to realize there was a problem because I had
| internalized the notion that burnout was another word for
| fatigue/exhaustion, when they're actually distinct
| phenomena
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| "Sorry, but that's not real burnout. If you're unable to
| recover at all then you've experienced real burnout."
|
| I hope you see where this eventually leads, because it's a
| common pattern when discussing mental health topics. There is a
| single instance of the "true" thing and no one else feels
| justified in taking care of themselves because someone else has
| it worse. I'm sorry that you had burnout, but there are better
| ontologies of burnout than drawing the line around your
| experience as "real".
| arrosenberg wrote:
| Nah, GP is right. There is feeling burned out on something
| specific and being well and truly burned out. The former can
| be shrugged off with tricks, the latter feels like being dead
| inside until you rest for long enough to reset.
| devinprater wrote:
| Is... Is that really what I have to do? But I have a job.
| arrosenberg wrote:
| Pretty much! Save up, take 6-12 months off, you will feel
| way better.
| justinator wrote:
| Yeah it's what you have to do. You were abused (by
| yourself) and you're going to have to admit that it's a
| problem, make very real steps to recover from it, and
| make sure that it never, ever happens again as you're now
| 1000x more susceptible to the ill effects that come from
| that sort of abuse.
| alar44 wrote:
| [dead]
| katscradle_1989 wrote:
| honestly seems like it would work on a spectrum. I've been
| burned out. Not as bad as GP but where I've had to take a
| week off to find stability again. Everything except the
| timescales seem to line up.
|
| I do get what GP is trying to say though. I just believe
| its all the same and "small burnout" can be fixed with
| small tricks.
| blue039 wrote:
| You are being needlessly sensitive to the parent post.
|
| The parent is making a distinct difference between what the
| industry typically refers to as "burnout" and what actual,
| physical, burnout is. As someone who has gone through phases
| of burnout and currently working through yet another one in
| my career I can attest the parent's definition IS the correct
| one.
|
| You are _not_ burned out when you are bored at work. You
| _are_ burned out when you are so tired of doing something
| that you cannot bring yourself to not only do it, but
| anything else. When you need _drugs_ to get through the day.
| It 's a combination of depression/anxiety/fear of failure
| that manifests as what I can only describe as a feeling of
| wanting to disconnect from everything forever and sleep. The
| only solution is to disconnect for a long time. I, for
| example, have not programmed as a hobby in almost half a
| decade. It's the only way I can stave off repeated bouts of
| severe life crippling burnout.
|
| Be far less sensitive. Also, perhaps you should try to
| experience burnout before a needlessly pedantic out-of-
| nowhere virtue signal.
| kdmccormick wrote:
| > actual, physical burnout
|
| As with all mental health issues, there is no clear line
| between "fake" and "actual, physical". It's a spectrum.
| Even small amounts of stress and boredom create physical
| responses.
|
| I have Bipolar disorder and I will happily admit that
| anyone can suffer depression & mania symptoms, and that the
| difference between what they suffer and I suffer is one of
| magnitude and not one of categorical difference.
|
| The article author sounded a little bit burned out. You
| were/are severely burned out. Is there something wrong with
| saying it like that?
|
| Unrelated, read both of these statements and tell me you
| don't see irony:
|
| > Be far less sensitive.
|
| > Also, perhaps you should try to experience burnout before
| a needlessly pedantic out-of-nowhere virtue signal
| John23832 wrote:
| "True Scottsman" with mental health is really annoying.
| [deleted]
| aliqot wrote:
| Aren't you doing the same thing right now? They're
| gatekeeping burnout, and you're gatekeeping the definition of
| it.
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| Sorry, but I'm only willing to continue this conversation
| with a _true_ Scotsmen.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
|
| touche
| atoav wrote:
| No they are not. They are stating the fact that a given
| psychological definition (e.g. _burnout_ ) can include
| multiple different manifestations.
| johnfn wrote:
| I mean, if one guy is talking about a broken leg, and a
| second comes by and says "ah yeah, I scraped my knee once
| too, I had to use a band-aid in order to solve it," I think
| it's entirely valid to say that those are not comparable
| experiences. I feel that you are arguing they are different
| degrees of the same thing. That may be true, but it's true in
| such a thin sense that it doesn't really contribute to a
| conversation.
| darkerside wrote:
| Well, in this case, the article author is talking about a
| sprained ankle, and top level poster is dismissing his
| experience because he broke his ankle once.
| blue039 wrote:
| The article author is saying "I sprained my ankle and it
| was extremely painful to the point I could not do
| anything". You can ice an ankle (take a little time off)
| and have it fixed.
|
| The parent is saying "I broke my ankle - fractured in
| several places I was crippled and needed surgery you did
| not experience a broken ankle". You cannot fix this
| problem by icing it. You need a systemic reduction in
| everything.
|
| The author is conflating a sprained ankle with a broken
| one. The parent is saying that is not true. A lot of
| people who have sprained their ankles have come into this
| topic to tell everyone "WELL ACKTHUALLY" in the most
| obnoxiously stereotypical HN way possible thereby
| diluting the actual meaning of the parent's statement.
| There are far too many HNers who have a permanent
| craniorectal issue.
| darkerside wrote:
| Most disagreements really just boil down to what is the
| most important thing to be talking about. And I tend to
| side with the person who started the conversation because
| they had something to say.
|
| > If you can be restored from simply doing a different
| task, then its not real burnout.
|
| You're not wrong, it's just that you seem not to realize
| this statement was a "well actually", probably because
| you happen to agree with it.
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| That's a great example that I agree with. Also consider the
| "You haven't had a _real_ fracture unless there 's bone
| sticking out of your skin." to the person who has a
| hairline.
|
| What I'm saying is that it's especially easy to get caught
| up in this mindset when discussing mental health topics.
| The existence of " _real_ " burnout artificially introduces
| the concept of " _fake_ " burnout.
|
| Let's be clear, the concept of burnout and worn out is more
| compassionate, descriptive, and most importantly has the
| important consequence that I'm interested in avoiding: not
| turning into a who has it worse spiral that ultimately ends
| in people with burnout not being able to identify it
| because someone else has it worse.
|
| It's this class of false negative that I believe is
| important to have a conversation about. These people often
| go unnoticed, because despite having burnout will not
| identify it as such because someone has it worse.
|
| I get that you're interested in the false positive case,
| and that's fair. I understand that if too many people
| misidentify worn out as burnout that it can make burnt out
| people feel like people aren't able to understand their
| circumstances as severe, but I trust you'll consider both
| types of error as important and deserving the attention
| they do.
| pitsnatch wrote:
| I think I'm falling into the trap of looking at my capacity
| only in terms of each day. Ie if I get a good night's sleep I
| erroneously feel like I should be able to sustain my (probably
| unsustainable) momentum. When I try to relax, I feel like I'm
| wasting time if I do it for too long. Does anyone have any
| advice for this?
| tarokun-io wrote:
| I'm a lot like you in that sense. Here's what's working for
| me (still learning):
|
| > I get a good night's sleep I erroneously feel like I should
| be able to sustain my (probably unsustainable) momentum
|
| Try to have patience.
|
| When we see an improvement we get attached to it. This
| happens when losing weight, sleeping more, etc. Changing
| habits, even slightly, always takes time.
|
| If, it seems to be evolving in the direction you desire in
| the long-term, you're good. Extrapolating from one or a few
| data points won't give good predictions.
|
| > When I try to relax, I feel like I'm wasting time if I do
| it for too long.
|
| Trust yourself.
|
| Do you feel you're wasting time after a few hours, days, or
| months? If you relax enough, the need to do stuff usually
| comes back to you on its own. No need to force it via guilt
| or worry.
|
| If you objectively can't relax as much as you'd like to, then
| remind yourself _why_ you're doing the things you do. You'll
| probably have great reasons to do so --making the most of
| some opportunity, doing it for your loved ones, whatever.
|
| It could also be you needed to avoid relaxing some time in
| the past and now you have more space to relax but haven't re-
| analyzed your current situation properly and are not aware
| not-relaxing is not adequate strategy now, according to your
| desires and objectives.
| haswell wrote:
| Start reframing the value proposition of relaxing.
|
| In my mental model, I look at relaxation/disconnection like
| sleep.
|
| You can behave as if it's not important for awhile, but
| eventually it will catch up.
|
| Personally, since I couldn't see the burnout around the
| corner, I didn't have the internal self talk to remind myself
| that relaxation is not just a waste of time.
|
| I'm now working on baking this into my every day life by
| building habits around it. For me, that looks like:
|
| - Mindfulness practice in the morning (using the "Waking Up"
| app, which has solidified the concepts for me in a way that
| no other app ever had)
|
| - Regular walks in nature
|
| - Cannabis + music listening sessions
|
| But I can't stress the value of mindfulness enough. For me it
| has become a tool to check in with myself more often and to
| _really_ notice how things are going instead of just getting
| carried along by the currents of each day. And note this is
| not the same thing as some common forms of focus
| /concentration-based "clear your mind" meditation practices.
| the_snooze wrote:
| Shift your focus to reliability, not efficiency. It forces
| you to recognize when you've done enough, and it makes it OK
| to down-prioritize things to ensure you deliver on what's
| more important.
| aantix wrote:
| You disconnected from your family as well while living in Costa
| Rica?
| aartav wrote:
| No, they were with me. Can't disconnect from everything.
| stkdump wrote:
| I guess you shouldn't let it come to burnout. This is probably
| a good measure to prevent burnout.
| haswell wrote:
| I'm about 10 months into a burnout break, and I'm only just
| starting to feel like I have my feet back under me.
|
| Burnout is very real and very different from the notion of
| "worn out" described in the piece. I started to realize this
| more deeply when I noticed that there was just about nothing
| that I could interest myself in, even the most tantalizing
| personal project ideas (some might note this sounds like
| depression, and I agree. I've dealt with varying levels of
| depression for most of my life, but burnout became a
| multiplying factor).
|
| I think if more folks realized how different they are, they
| would take burnout more seriously and take more steps to avoid
| it.
|
| I know I would have.
| tarokun-io wrote:
| My 2c: I realized (quite late in life) that when there's just
| about nothing that I can interest myself in, it's because I
| actually _need to do nothing_.
|
| Doing nothing is healthy and is a great way to regain health.
|
| (Feeling guilty about it or worrying about "what I should be
| doing" will prevent it from restoring us, though. It only
| works if we accept our health needs.)
| haswell wrote:
| This is a really good point, and one that can be hard to
| realize.
|
| The constant need to go go go is so deeply ingrained in so
| many of us, that the first instinct is to conclude "there's
| something wrong with me".
|
| Burnout seems to be the body/mind's way of enforcing that
| downtime, so that's definitely a critical lesson to take
| from all of this.
| bee_rider wrote:
| The post doesn't actually mention burnout at all, it is just
| tagged with the word for some reason.
|
| I don't think I have seen "real burnout" as you call it. If it
| is so debilitating, I guess it must be pretty rare, or this
| would be causing a massive social and economic disturbance. It
| seems lots of people are feeling worn out nowadays, so this
| article seems like it could be useful.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| It's not real burnout unless you're working in Burnoute region
| of France.
| legrande wrote:
| > and the only real solution is to disconnect from everything
| you can
|
| Yes. Offline is the new peace of mind. Trouble is, the mind
| needs something to work at/solve and it's forever trying to
| solve some puzzle. People regard reading as switching off, but
| reading, for me, is an active pursuit, rather than passive. I
| read to become a better version of myself, so yeah: the only
| real solution to burnout is literally to meditate in a cave
| _sans_ smartphone or book.
| danaris wrote:
| Well, that's all very well for those who can afford to vacation
| in Costa Rica for 3 months, but most of us have to actually
| earn money to survive, and have to work most days of the year
| to do so.
|
| Of course, the conclusion this _should_ lead to is that we have
| _yet another_ very good reason why a modern healthy country
| should be providing Universal Basic Income.
| [deleted]
| hummus_bae wrote:
| Disconnecting doesn't work for everyone, and technology burnout
| is different from mental burnout.
| idopmstuff wrote:
| OP never made this claim. The title is "When feeling worn out,
| rotate", not "When feeling crippling, life-draining burnout,
| rotate". You shouldn't dismiss this just because it doesn't
| solve the worst possible case. The whole value of this
| suggestion is that it's something reasonably helpful that you
| can do in order to avoid ending up totally burned out.
|
| And honestly if you're fully burned out, it's still helpful to
| have suggestions like this that might make things slightly
| better - most people aren't able to go to Costa Rica for three
| months and relax, so suggesting that's the only cure to burnout
| is just telling a lot of people that they're doomed forever
| because they can't take a tropical vacation.
| tbwriting wrote:
| Good stuff, very to-the-point. For the curious, I just wrote
| (https://tylerberbert.substack.com/p/breaks) about why rotating
| task types can have the added benefit of generating helpful ideas
| and insights about prior tasks.
| 100011_100001 wrote:
| I do this with code a lot. If I work on a very hard, complex
| problem, which usually takes me about 1 to 2 weeks, I will switch
| to a very simple problem next. Ideally, I like jumping from
| complexity to known problems, with known solutions that just have
| to be coded.
|
| In instances that a problem is so complex that it takes me more
| than 2 weeks, I will switch mid-problem for a couple of days. It
| gives me the time to recover, and a lot of times I can then
| attack the problem with a fresh perspective.
|
| It's one of the reasons I'm one of the most prolific coders in
| the company I'm in.
| mckravchyk wrote:
| That's a smart thing to do. I have also noticed that there's
| different type of work that can be done better when sleep
| depleted. I'm working 7 days / week nowadays and one day I will
| usually be pretty sleep depleted. I have noticed that when I'm
| sleep depleted the most minor distraction can blow up and take
| out an hour or so. So I plan to do deep work on that day and
| ideally it's the deep work I have been doing on the day prior so
| there's no energy cost associated with switching. And it depends
| on the type of task as well. I.e. I will struggle with boring
| front-end implementation on sleep depletion, but I will be able
| to solve the most complex architectural decisions no matter how
| little energy I have because it just sucks me in.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I love this article because it is very succinct. "Here's an
| analogous problem. Here's how it might apply to parenting. Here's
| how it might apply to work."
|
| I love that it just shares an idea. It doesn't spend pages trying
| to qualify every nuance and detail and counter-argument of the
| idea.
|
| Regrettably (or maybe it's helpful), this will always lead to
| people nitpicking the analogy or idea apart, based on their
| personal interpretation of all those undefined details.
| euroderf wrote:
| "Rotate your tireds."
| fIREpOK wrote:
| turn left on the way back
| jasfi wrote:
| This works up to a point, but then you lose focus on what you
| were working on. Also, sometimes you can't rotate the task at
| hand.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Rotating tasks is pretty much necessary for me. With executive
| issues, my focus is highly variable. Sometimes I need to switch
| to a lower effort (and/or more rewarding) task to recharge.
|
| This affects everyone to some degree or another. It's just an
| order of magnitude worse for me.
| xyzelement wrote:
| I bet this doesn't work for everyone but it works for some
| people, and I think I am in that category.
|
| A bunch of years ago, I did a part time MBA, including weekend
| and night classes. So I remember sitting at my desk at the office
| and thinking "cool, very soon I get to stop working and head to
| class" and then other times thinking "cool, there's no class for
| a few days, I get to focus on just work!"
|
| The context switch was refreshing and something to look forward
| to, in both directions.
| lvzw wrote:
| I'm planning on starting a part-time MBA in the fall. Did you
| enjoy your experience in your program? Would you do it again?
| xyzelement wrote:
| Absolutely!
|
| Something that's great about part time programs is that
| everyone you're in school with is in the same boat - they
| already have generally decent careers but are ambitious and
| capable enough to make the investment in furthering
| themselves (or pivoting) - that's a great group. The full-
| time MBAs kinda felt like "kids" in comparison - I don't mean
| that as a put down, they were capable and driven in their own
| way, I just think the part timers are special in that way.
|
| Something that worked for me - I didn't feel the urge to
| graduate quickly (would be different if I needed the degree
| to pivot roles) so I graduated in 5 years whereas others did
| it in 2. This had multiple benefits: I got to focus more on
| each class w/o burning out, and I got to meet WAY more people
| and do many more social things - ski trips, study abroad,
| etc.
|
| I also took the strategy of trying to learn what I don't
| know. My background is in engineering/tech/economics, so I
| made sure to _not_ take any "Managing IT" type classes and
| to test out of as much Econ as possible. Instead, I focused
| on things I didn't know anything about (entrepreneurship,
| marketing, competitive strategy etc.) All of that served me
| well.
|
| Mainly, the MBA is social and fun. A bit after I graduated, I
| opted for an in person graduate program in Data Science and
| promptly bailed. The social element was so boring that there
| was no reason to be traveling to campus - was missing out
| nothing compared to studying at home. But the MBA, the
| material is good but I found the social/personal evolution
| just as if not more valuable.
|
| Happy to answer anything else. What school are you going to?
| adamsmith143 wrote:
| So your MBA was not in-person?
| xyzelement wrote:
| It was 100% in person, it was around 2011. I wonder how
| much remoteness there is in MBA programs now. I imagine
| those are the programs that would lose the most from lack
| of physical proximity.
| docandrew wrote:
| The military has known this, hence the frequent moves (permanent
| change of station or PCS). People need a change of scenery, a
| chance to learn new skills, and learn from new people. It's also,
| as the article mentions, a good cure for feeling worn out in a
| particular role.
| globalise83 wrote:
| Ah yes, as my uncle used to say while I was labouring for him in
| summer holidays. "A change is as good as a rest, let's move those
| <heavy objects> instead". He paid well though. Happy days.
| opportune wrote:
| I need to rotate at work due to early-stage burnout, and
| fortunately my manager has realized it too and got me assigned to
| a new, interesting problem that I get to lead. But my need to
| rotate stems from a big project I am 90% done with, and
| iteratively bug-bashing to get to 100% and launch it. I need to
| finish that project to become a Senior and really get started on
| the next problem.
|
| The alternative is switching jobs or teams, which I don't want to
| do: my manager and coworkers are great, I am progressing my
| career quickly, and it would be impossible to get the same pay
| without sacrificing WLB.
|
| This creates an interesting dilemma: the harder I work in the
| short term, the more I risk burnout, but once I finish my current
| project I can take a long vacation and likely won't feel burnt
| out once I switch tasks. If I try to take it easy so that I don't
| accumulate burnout as quickly (or take a long vacation now rather
| than later), I simply accumulate burnout at a lower rate over a
| longer interval.
|
| I feel like a lot of people don't burn out in isolation or
| completely unexpectedly, but because they are faced with similar
| situations as I am in. How closely can I flirt with it while
| still accomplishing career objectives?
| alvis wrote:
| It has a very valid point, and I can see how providing
| flexibility at work can further boost performance rather than
| just a tool to retain great talent
| giantg2 wrote:
| Hasn't helped me. Each team I run to seems to be worse/harder
| than the last.
| didgetmaster wrote:
| We need variety in our daily work tasks, otherwise it can become
| tedious. I have a startup, so as a founder I need to do many
| different things. It can be a challenge to decide what to work on
| since everything is 'urgent' (code new feature, fix bugs, write
| documentation, test or benchmark, work on marketing/sales, get
| feedback from customers, etc.).
|
| I devised a system where I just roll the dice each morning to see
| what I will focus on for that day (each area is assigned a
| number). That way I don't just do the 'fun stuff' and neglect the
| unpleasant tasks for too long. The random nature of deciding adds
| some variety to my work week.
| hosh wrote:
| There's a natural cycle to life. Our civilization is set up with
| beliefs around continuous and sustained production and growth ...
| yet there are cycles in businesses and economies as well. Being
| able to move with the cycles instead of fighting against them,
| will work out better.
| ehnto wrote:
| This article had had a very different lesson for me: Critical
| thinking requires application.
|
| I inline-skated as a kid, or "aggressive inline" the sport was
| called. I wore my wheels down to such an angle that I had worn
| through the blade frame and made it to the bearing. I didn't have
| money to replace them so I just pushed through it quite
| literally. This caused me much teenage angst, but with money from
| my first job, I bought Randy Spizer II signature boots and all
| the kit to get them rolling. $750 Australian Dollars, phew.
|
| The new frames let me run "freestyle" wheel configurations, only
| two wheels on each blade with the two middle wheels removed, so a
| pack of 8 wheels was actually enough for two sets of skates. That
| gave me a backup set for when I eventually wore through the
| wheels again. It was still an ongoing struggle, but I was better
| off having solved the problem with money.
|
| Upon reflection, I never once thought to rotate my wheels. I just
| wore them until they pretty much crumbled off the rim, then
| replaced the now very unusable wheels.
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