[HN Gopher] An antidote to envy
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An antidote to envy
Author : herbertl
Score : 57 points
Date : 2023-02-11 14:21 UTC (8 hours ago)
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| gat1 wrote:
| Looking into myself is way too scary though.
| smackeyacky wrote:
| Depending on how old you are, you might find yourself forced to
| looking into yourself. Any life changing event that gives you a
| jolt, circumstances out of your control or an onset of
| depression.
|
| I certainly wasn't ready for my bout of depression and wished
| at the time that I knew myself better Talk therapy helped but
| it would have been a lot easier if I had examined my own
| motivations long before that.
| powersnail wrote:
| > Ultimately, envy is the result of not knowing who you are. It
| arises when you outsource your definitions of success to whatever
| norms you've adopted - whether consciously or not. In one
| person's case, it might be wealth. In another, it may be social
| media followers. In another, it could be the size of a home.
| Regardless of what the barometer is, the fact that you desire it
| means that you're looking beyond the contents of your mind and
| into the collective pool of society. You're ceasing to look into
| what makes you uniquely you, and are gazing into the chaos of
| chasing that which you don't understand.
|
| Envy, can't just be the result of not knowing who you are, can
| it? The former is a very specific emotion, and the latter is a
| nebulous statement of your self-awareness. At its heart, Envy has
| something to do with what you desire but do not possess while
| some other people do. It can't just be a lack of self-awareness.
|
| What is the criteria for knowing who you are? Is it the
| realization that you should stop desiring anything which other
| people possess but you don't? That sounds more like a
| rationalization than an antidote.
|
| When Bob loves Eve, and is henceforth envious of Tom who's Eve's
| current crush, does it mean that Bob is "looking beyond the
| contents of his mind into the collective pool of society"---being
| Eve, and ceasing to look into what make Bob uniquely Bob? And, if
| he instead start gazing into himself, he'll discover that he
| doesn't love Eve, that his burning desire is nothing but the
| outsourced definition of success? And at the end of the day,
| isn't the desire to _not be envious_ also part of the social
| norm, and hence an outsourced definition of success?
|
| I feel that these kind of nebulous concepts (outsourcing
| definition of success, know thyself, societal norms, etc.) just
| don't match up to the reality. When I'm picturing the actual
| envious times which I or the people I know have experienced, they
| provide neither a sufficient framework to understand these
| emotions, nor the antidote, while often assuming that you need an
| antidote.
|
| Usually you don't. Envy is unpleasant, makes you look bitter, but
| all in all, pretty common place. People don't show deep sympathy
| to you, but you know, they also don't judge you for it. It's also
| part of your motivation to better yourself. There's nothing wrong
| with wanting what other people want. What other people want,
| other people might have already gotten, and that could make you
| feel envy, and that is perfectly natural.
|
| Recent years, especially on HN, I've read quite a few essays that
| seem to want to "turn off" negative emotions and regard the
| resulting tranquil state of mind as a virtue. It's like a new fad
| of doing psychological plastic surgery, where being envy or sad
| is like having a wrinkle which must be eradicated.
|
| No wonder people signed up to be Cyberman in Doctor Who. Maybe
| that _is_ going to be the new trend. Fitter, happier, fond but
| not in love, nothing so ridiculously teenage and desperate,
| nothing so childish.
|
| I disagree with that. I'd rather live with the emotions,
| including anger, envy, jealousy, burning desires, or ranting,
| than to be, just, zen.
| aschearer wrote:
| Cultivate gratitude for what you have, joy for what others have,
| and an appreciation that what's here one day may be gone the
| next. Easier said then done.
|
| PS the juxtaposition of "wisdom" with "subscribe for new posts
| and become a member" is amusing. Want enlightment? Then make sure
| to smash that subscribe button! Why not just share your wisdom
| without all those trappings?
| renewiltord wrote:
| The antidote to envy is to invest in your friends' startups.
| mrg3_2013 wrote:
| It's a great post. Envy needs to be demolished for peace. Some of
| the response alludes to using envy as a tool to make progress.
| But it is a flawed concept as one never achieves a peaceful mind
| (dog chasing cars one after another). I suppose it all boils down
| to what one wants out of life (i.e looking inward). If constant
| chase is the goal, envy is great.
| hi41 wrote:
| I think envy is a tool we have as a result of evolution. If you
| don't buy the next best car or that shiny thing (house, jewelry
| etc), the sexual partner may choose the one who does instead of
| you. I think envy is the arms race we developed so that we try
| hard to find a partner so that your gene pool continues to exist.
| I am not sure we can do what the author says about "knowing
| oneself" as there are very so many ways to interpret it. I think
| we are way more complicated to be able to know oneself since we
| have 3.5 billion years of evolutionary history. Our unhappiness
| may act as a counterweight so that we may choose to tame our
| envy.
| fzeindl wrote:
| Envy is one of the most useless thoughts/emotions there is, it
| serves no purpose at all.
|
| But there's a good sentence for dealing with it, if you are
| envious of somebody else having something you can tell yourself:
| "I have something he doesn't have. I have _enough_."
| itake wrote:
| For me, envy motivates me and defines what is possible. Envy is
| not an enjoyable motion, but it pushes me out of my comfort
| zone and to achieve more than I am.
| TEP_Kim_Il_Sung wrote:
| It is supposed to motivate you to better yourself, sadly most
| people just use it to explode the envied person's head in their
| immagination. That, or they join a political ideology well
| suited for weight-loss.
| lnsru wrote:
| I lost envy emotion long time ago. It was there, but I know the
| guys I were envy to too good. Successful founders had immense
| wealth transfer behind the scenes from their parents. Or
| introduction to wealthy individuals in their social bubble. The
| good grade students were not gifted geniuses, but parents were
| able to cover all studying costs and these guys had time for
| learning. All these stories, that should make me envy, well..
| they all have some behind the scenes hidden support component. I
| am perfectly fine with myself, thanks, no antidotes needed.
| mrg3_2013 wrote:
| Congrats if you have plucked envy out of you! How do you avoid
| being envious of "legit" individuals (i.e those who achieved
| greater success coming from far adverse situations) ?
| shigawire wrote:
| I'm a different guy but if someone is really better or worked
| harder or had better luck... There's not much I can do about
| it so it's whatever.
|
| I think this level of laziness and lack of ambition is out of
| place on this board, but common in the general public.
| masterof0 wrote:
| True. Something I learn when I came years ago to the US, is
| you don't have to be awesome at anything, being normal,
| working hard and keeping in mind principles like "spend
| less than what you make" already put you above 90% of
| people. Most folks are lazy out there in the real world.
| You don't need to grind super hard.
| masterof0 wrote:
| Those "legit" individuals are so rare, that instead of
| feeling envy, I just feel curiosity, and the desire to learn
| from them. But so far, I don't know of anyone. I'm sure there
| are a few, but I haven't met anyone in person that deserves
| the "legit" label.
| lnsru wrote:
| I just admire them. They are extremely rare. In chronological
| order: clever girl from my class, my two mentors at the
| university, my second boss, my ex neighbor, an iron man
| athlete with iron will to train every day, my current
| "client" and current colleague with great work ethics. Sadly
| only one from 40 people I must work with. Maybe another 3-5
| people I don't remember right now.
| fsckboy wrote:
| > _How do you avoid being envious of "legit" individuals (i.e
| those who achieved greater success coming from far adverse
| situations_
|
| and, unexplained, why wouldn't you still be envious of people
| who had all the advantages you didn't? It comes off a bit
| more like sour grapes.
|
| Envy is a natural base human emotion, that's why it was put
| in the 10 commandments 6 or more thousand years ago. Don't
| deny you have it, we all do, acknowledge it for what it is,
| and use it to stimulate yourself to strive harder/better, or
| give up on what is unattainable and move on to more
| satisfying goals.
|
| And btw, there are exceptionally good students just like
| there are exceptionally good athletes, without regard to
| their background. People, including lousy athletes, applaud
| good athletes. On HN, it's a constant drumbeat of "it's
| unfair to test me in my chosen field, it's unfair to look at
| my scores, it's unfair to judge me, just give ME the job,
| then I'll show you"
| syspec wrote:
| 100 years after the earth was invented right?
| PuppyTailWags wrote:
| I don't think any individual is "legit" in the sense that
| something inherent in the human made it so they are destined
| to succeed regardless of how shitty their life was. My
| parents came from poverty, and are the only economically
| successful members of their entire extended family. But each
| of them told me significant adult figures in their lives that
| enabled their schooling-- doing chores for them so they had
| time to study, or shelling out a bit extra to buy them
| supplies.
|
| I don't know of any heroic human that independently
| accomplishes without any assistance whatsoever. I do know of
| many accomplished humans that had small but important
| influences that enabled them, and I think that has taught me
| as an adult that I need to ensure kindness and generosity
| towards humans around me.
| swatcoder wrote:
| > How do you avoid being envious of "legit" individuals (i.e
| those who achieved greater success coming from far adverse
| situations) ?
|
| Well, one approach is to just accept agency for one's own
| choices and have some self-empathy. I understood that where
| more opportunity might have been there for me, I made choices
| that were sound to where I was at the time and these choices
| led me down a different path. Sometimes they look like wise
| choices in hindsight, and sometimes they look foolish but
| understandable in context. And then I make sure to find
| satisfaction in where I am, rather than where I might have
| been.
| nicbou wrote:
| Not always. Some people are just genuinely better than me. They
| are nicer, smarter and work harder. That's fine.
| closewith wrote:
| With respect, your comment sounds bitterly envious to me.
| lnsru wrote:
| I don't know what to write here. At some point people turn. I
| am much happier and positive than few years ago.
| h0p3 wrote:
| What do you mean by the word envy? Do you think it's a moral
| problem? Are you sure there's no plausible interpretation of
| this person's words that doesn't (or shouldn't*) sound
| envious?
| closewith wrote:
| What I mean is that it sounds as though the GP is resentful
| of others he feels (rightly in many cases) have had an
| advantage over him or her. I don't think it's a particular
| moral failing, but I also don't think, on the balance of
| probabilities, that there's another reasonable explanation.
| h0p3 wrote:
| So, envy is not conceptually immoral on your view. It's
| perhaps a positivist's type of resentment, I take it. If
| that's the case, then I think I understand where you are
| coming from.
| atemerev wrote:
| > Whatever I am, that I want to understand.
|
| Well I understand that I am a failure at life. That doesn't help
| much.
| SPBS wrote:
| This sentence stood out to me:
|
| > In my case, writing these kinds of essays is my way of
| understanding myself. I don't do it to build an audience or to
| seek recognition for them. I do it because I want to explore why
| I struggle with the things I struggle with, and why I love the
| things I love.
|
| _This_ is the kind of reason people should be writing blog posts
| for! Not for chasing engagement and getting dissatisfied with the
| viewer analytics ( "no one's reading, what's the point?").
| Ironically, reading this instantly made me subscribe to the
| author's newsletter.
|
| Quoting what I said in a comment a year ago
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28592353):
|
| > Who cares if no one is reading? You blog because you have
| something to express on the internet, not because you're seeking
| attention from others. Content creation for the sole purpose of
| views is _incredibly_ superficial.
| jdmoreira wrote:
| Even today I was thinking about envy and that I might be envious
| towards a specific person in my circle. This person owns and
| operates a lifestyle business that is currently on auto-pilot and
| they have a lot of freedom, low stress, a seemingly endless
| stream of incoming capital and total control of their time.
|
| I don't resent this person of course but in a way I am envious,
| yes. I know I have it in me to grind into building such a
| business for myself but the circumstances of my family make it so
| I'm the sole provider and I have a full-time high stakes job.
|
| Like Charlie Munger said, "What good is envy? It's the one sin
| you can't have any fun at."
|
| but he also said...
|
| "Like Warren, I had a considerable passion to get rich, not
| because I wanted Ferraris - I wanted the independence. I
| desperately wanted it."
|
| and so I'm envious. As I'm sure he was once.
| smackeyacky wrote:
| If you take a bit of time to be honest about what you really
| need (rather than what you want, or what you think others want
| of you) you can drastically scale back your lifestyle and get
| close to that independence.
|
| The extreme version of course is becoming homeless. At which
| point we find out that true independence simply isn't
| available. As old Bob Dylan said, you gotta serve somebody.
| [deleted]
| harha_ wrote:
| I'm barely able to feel envy towards anyone, I guess it's because
| I realized long ago that most of the time you shouldn't compare
| yourself to others.
| paulpauper wrote:
| _But envy is one of the most pervasive problems in today's world,
| especially as social media normalizes the successes of others,
| making you feel like you're "underperforming" the average when in
| reality you're being shown a highlight reel of outliers. You're
| always comparing yourself to someone ahead of you, and the
| goalpost will keep moving because the algorithm ensures that it
| moves on your behalf. And whenever a hierarchy like this exists,
| the fingers of envy creep within._
|
| People say this like it's a truism, but the notion that social
| media only shows successful people or is like a highlight reel of
| life, is possibly false. Unless your social circle is limited to
| tech founders or celebrities, most people live pretty mundane
| lives. https://greyenlightenment.com/2022/04/27/still-skeptical-
| abo...
|
| I don't see what is wrong with envy per say. What is wrong with
| wanting more. Envy is a major motivating or driving force of
| getting better at life.
| throwaquestion5 wrote:
| > People say this like it's a truism, but the notion that
| social media only shows successful people or is like a
| highlight reel of life, is possibly false. Unless your social
| circle is limited to tech founders or celebrities, most people
| live pretty mundane lives.
|
| The article is missing the whole point of envy. Envy manifest
| for those around you that have it better than you. The coworker
| that started with you and ended up climbing positions faster
| and has a better salary. The photos of the weeding of an old
| crush. Is about someone being an step up and the what-ifs that
| would have made it so you had that now.
|
| If you are start up founder yes, it makes sense being envious
| if you went in a round and someone got the investment you
| wanted; or an acquaintance is already retiring while you are
| still iterating on your 5th failure business. Envy adjust to
| the grandeur delusions people have. Tech founders and
| celebrities may be yours, but for most people those around them
| that have it better.
| yazzku wrote:
| Envy can be a positive and healthy force. E.g., I've always
| wanted to work with people whose skills I envy. That gives me
| reason to learn more and progress.
|
| I think what the article refers to "envy" is a complete lack of
| self-esteem. Envy is healthy when you acknowledge your
| limitations.
|
| > But envy is one of the most pervasive problems in today's
| world, especially as social media normalizes the successes of
| others, making you feel like you're "underperforming" the average
| when in reality you're being shown a highlight reel of outliers.
|
| This isn't really "envy", or not on its own.
| JadeNB wrote:
| > Envy can be a positive and healthy force. E.g., I've always
| wanted to work with people whose skills I envy. That gives me
| reason to learn more and progress.
|
| My understanding of the word is borne out by the formal
| definition, e.g., in Wiktionary
| (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/envy): "Resentful desire of
| something possessed by another or others (but not limited to
| material possessions)." That 'resentful' part is key to why I
| think that envy is (almost?) always negative. It is good to
| work with people whose skills you _admire_ ; if you _envy_
| their skills then you not only want to have those skills
| yourself, but resent that they have them.
| karmakaze wrote:
| I'm not good at emotions and can really only recognize about
| 3 or 4 in myself. I do try to understand what value each
| emotion can have, on the presumption that if it had no value,
| it ought not to continue existing. Envy is the hardest one
| for me to find value in. At best it can be a kind of
| competitive motivating factor. That's all I've got.
|
| I think I avoid envy by first believing that 'I' could have
| been anyone on the planet, but just happened to be 'me'.
| Given that as a starting point, do the most with what you
| have. Even then I don't do near close to the max, so I'm not
| in any position to complain or desire beyond my means which I
| haven't realized.
| [deleted]
| yazzku wrote:
| Ok, that was a polite way of saying "English, motherfucker!"
| m463 wrote:
| sounds like admire not envy
| mrg3_2013 wrote:
| You are "technically" right about the definition of envy - but
| I think OP is using envy to indicate "wanting something that
| you feel you deserve". Sometimes you feel you deserved more.
| Sometimes you feel others deserved less.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > I've always wanted to work with people whose skills I envy.
|
| I want to be around people who have skills and qualities I
| would like to learn. I can't honestly say I envy any of them,
| though.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Though noting your other comment below, envy is less about
| wanting something for oneself as wanting exclusive possession
| of it - not 'I wish to have that too' but 'that should be mine,
| not yours.'
| kayo_20211030 wrote:
| Another personal "observation" of banal bollocks trying to pass
| as wisdom. How long before the TED talk audience has to suffer
| through 15 minutes of this?
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