[HN Gopher] Junkyard computing - repurposing discarded smartphon...
___________________________________________________________________
Junkyard computing - repurposing discarded smartphones to minimize
pollution
Author : anigbrowl
Score : 158 points
Date : 2023-02-10 16:55 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (dl.acm.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (dl.acm.org)
| widowlark wrote:
| I fear that these devices are going to become less and less
| usable, not because they arent physically operable, but instead
| because companies like Apple are allowing them to become bricks
| if the owner doesn't pre-empt their demise or recycling. It's
| done today in the name of theft deterrence, but once these
| machines end up in drawers and storage lockers for years, I doubt
| most people will be able to unlock them successfully, rendering
| them sadly useless.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| i disagree. The theft deterrence feature that apple offer is
| actually useful and does what it says - deter theft.
|
| I anticipate the opposite happening because devices are
| becoming more powerful and more power efficient. I own a PS
| Vita - this is 2012 hardware - and it holds up very well.
| granted, this is the exception to the rule but there is no
| reason why an iphone 12 (for example) cannot be repurposed down
| the line. the hardware is good enough and fairly durable.
| widowlark wrote:
| if it stays in a state where it cannot be reused (because the
| user no longer has the ability to unlock due to forgotten
| password, etc), then no matter how powerful it is, it will be
| a brick.
| JanMa wrote:
| Does anyone have an idea how they built the cloudlets? I find the
| concept very fascinating but I don't have any idea how one would
| go about building such a large cluster of old phones
| tony_cannistra wrote:
| I'd imagine you're asking like, how did they _physically_ do
| it? That is an interesting question, I'd love to see pictures.
|
| But from an infrastructural standpoint I'd imagine that just
| putting a bespoke Linux distro on each of the phones and
| connecting them to the same network would enable the same kinds
| of orchestration you'd do in a "regular cloud."
| JanMa wrote:
| Both actually. How did they do it physically and what did
| they run on the phones? I found it especially interesting
| that 20% of the devices had to act as master or networking
| nodes
| oblib wrote:
| I had a two old smartphone sitting in a drawer for a few years,
| an old iPhone5 and an old Android phone. A few months ago I
| looked into using them for security cams and did a search and
| found https://alfred.camera/
|
| Alfred is pretty cool. They have a free version that does what I
| wanted and a premium version that's got quite a few nice
| additional features.
|
| I'm still using an old iPhone 10. Apple has obsoleted it too. I
| can't install any apps from the "App Store" but it still does
| what I want most. The phone and the "Maps" and text apps still
| work fine.
|
| One of my daughters works at Verizon and asked me if I wanted a
| new iPhone for Christmas last year but I really don't need one. I
| work from home, do not work for anyone else, and don't need any
| additional "Apps". My apps are "web apps" so they run fine on
| those old phones.
| WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
| > I can't install any apps from the "App Store" but it still
| does what I want most.
|
| Apple has made this such a hassle... if you actually install an
| app on your new iPhone 10... you can go over to your
| "Purchased" on your iPhone 5 and install the version that runs
| on it (if it exists). However if you go on the iPhone 5 to the
| app store, they just say "so sorry, not supported" and it is
| the biggest slap you can give someone to remind them the
| product they paid for is not owned by them.
| ok_dad wrote:
| Do you know if they stream the video to the cloud or just
| connect locally? I am looking for a kid-cam for my son's room,
| but I do NOT want to have it streaming anywhere outside my LAN.
| This could work, because I have two old Androids I could use
| for this.
| officeplant wrote:
| IIRC The iPhone 10 has about two more years of support left.
| It's far from obsolete yet.
| oblib wrote:
| Yeah, I just checked again after reading the replies here and
| it's even older than that, it's an iPhone 6 plus. Maybe I
| should talk to my daughter about getting a newer one :D
| mikae1 wrote:
| Haven is open source. Last updated 2019, but works.
|
| https://guardianproject.github.io/haven/
| everly wrote:
| Thanks for posting, was recently wanting exactly this and was
| dreading wading through the app store/Reddit posts to find out
| what actually worked
| belltaco wrote:
| I think there should be a law that any phone that loses
| official support should be able to be jailbroken and boot
| unlocked by an official tool. The best thing about this is that
| it will disincentivize companies from dropping support early
| for perfectly functional devices.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| The problem there is that you would have a complete freak out
| on HN and other online fora.
| bhhaskin wrote:
| Why limited it to old devices? If I buy it I should be able
| to run my own software if I want.
| gameman144 wrote:
| Doing it for old hardware makes a much more compelling case
| for the general public to rally behind.
|
| For lots of folks, as long as things are working, they
| don't care how. Limiting such a law to out-of-support
| hardware would give a clear value-add of "Your phone
| stopped working, but if this legislation got passed, it
| could keep working".
|
| (I personally would love the right to control all my
| hardware, but that's a much tougher sell.)
| JohnFen wrote:
| I'm never shy about jailbreaking devices, new or old.
| They're mine, and I'll do whatever I want with them.
| gowld wrote:
| Because there's an implicit binding of hardware and
| software in the overall proposition which includes the
| software (like Fire homescreen ads), until 1 party wants to
| stop providing their side, which should then free the
| other.
| irusensei wrote:
| Not a phone but my PlayStation vita got a whole new life
| after jail breaking it. I actually regret not doing it
| earlier. I can backup and play my games from a normal sd card
| attached to a cheap adaptor. I can play home brew and
| community patches and fan translations (I have some Japanese
| games that never made it to the west). I can emulate anything
| from the 16 bit era plus perfect emulation from ps1 and psp.
| I can even use moonlight to play my pc.
|
| The poor vita rejected by Sony is so good I've decided to
| skip on a switch for now because it is that good.
| officeplant wrote:
| As soon as Nintendo announced they were shutting down the
| E-Shop I finally homebrewed my 2DS XL. Best thing I ever
| did to it.
| agentultra wrote:
| Same. The developer tooling for it is rad too. I'm blown
| away by it. It's a really fun platform to hack on.
|
| If you try it out drop the devs a donation! They're super
| talented and deserve all the respect.
| Gigachad wrote:
| The 3DS series was probably the peak of console hacking.
| There was a surprisingly long period where you could
| install freeshop and it would download any game direct
| from Nintendo's servers without paying.
|
| Along with easy persistent soft mods.
|
| I expect in the coming gens, console hacking will reach
| borderline impossible levels when things get replaced
| with memory safe languages. Probably all that's left is
| cpu glitching with power and clock attacks.
| skeaker wrote:
| The Switch is already said to be unhackable with purely
| software-side methods by the big names in the scene. I
| guess we'll find out with time if that's really true, but
| the current homebrew scene for it really only exists
| thanks to that hardware error in the first revision of
| the console which afaik isn't even Nintendo's fault. I
| think the 3DS scene may have been a real wake up call for
| them.
| Gigachad wrote:
| I don't think it's unhackable, it's probably more just
| unviable because any software exploit just gets quickly
| patched and becomes useless. Along with the difficulty of
| having to find a whole chain of exploits to work your way
| up the privilege layers.
|
| The hardware exploit is still usable in the latest models
| but it's harder to access. You require soldering a mod
| chip to the switch rather than sliding a jig in the
| controller rail.
|
| But regardless, I think hardware security is outpacing
| hackers abilities. The cat and mouse game is becoming
| increasingly one sided.
| hosh wrote:
| There was a recent article framing the Steam Deck as a
| handheld PC gaming platform, which got me thinking about
| using it as a base for a handheld dev environment.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| the PS Vita and the community behind it are a real marvel.
| The hardware is fantastic and has held up really well. I
| have one and i upgraded the battery, jailbroke the
| software... and i now have a fantastic emulation device in
| addition to full access to the PS Vita and PSX catalogues.
| Both are immense and the games are enjoyable.
|
| I hope the steam deck goes down the same path and am
| eagerly waiting for prices to drop on the used market.
| arglebargle123 wrote:
| Don't forget the entire PSP catalog as well. The Vita
| really was an underappreciated gem when it was actively
| selling new units.
| EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
| "This web browser is not supported. Please use Google Chrome on
| PC to continue with Alfred WebCamera."
| jedberg wrote:
| > I'm still using an old iPhone 10. Apple has obsoleted it too.
| I can't install any apps from the "App Store" but it still does
| what I want most.
|
| I still use an iPhone 10 also. But I have no problem installing
| new apps, so I'm confused by this. Have you updated the iOs and
| made sure the time is syncing properly? Those are two common
| problems that block App Store access.
| joemi wrote:
| I'm still using an iPhone 7 and while it doesn't support the
| latest iOS, I can still install apps from the app store.
| Nition wrote:
| I was going to say this too. iPhone 10 still supports the
| latest iOS.
| oblib wrote:
| I just checked and it's an iPhone 6 Plus, so even older than
| I thought. It's one of my wife's old phones. She did get a
| new one for Christmas last year but traded in her old one,
| which I think was an iPhone 10, so that's probably why I made
| the mistake.
|
| Like I said, I really do not use it much.
| ccooffee wrote:
| My iPhone 8 seems to work just fine for installing apps. I'm
| on iOS 15.6.1, though the [iOS 16 info page][1] claims
| support for iPhone 8. (I may have chosen not to upgrade to
| iOS 16 in the past because my 64gb phone is chronically low
| on storage, and the upgrade will use an additional 2gb of
| storage.)
|
| [1]: https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-16/
| __d wrote:
| My daily driver is an iPhone8, running iOS 16.2. It's just
| fine.
| paulkrush wrote:
| This reminds me of the souper computer! Except with better
| efficiency. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Soupercomputer
| spiritplumber wrote:
| We help you turn old android phones into robot brains if that's
| your thing. No bluetooth needed, we use the audio jack as a
| serial port. https://robots-everywhere.com/ (all designs are free
| on the wiki, or you can buy it)
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| I love this.
|
| I've been thinking of building a "poor man's cluster" using every
| old phone, Kindle, or laptop.
|
| They make a good point how phones have batteries that can charge
| at off peak hours. I figured if I built my cluster I'd remove the
| batteries to reduce the fire risk.
| arbitrage wrote:
| > I've been thinking of building a "poor man's cluster"
|
| It's not a bad idea, but what would you do with it?
| moremetadata wrote:
| > I've been thinking of building a "poor man's cluster" using
| every old phone, Kindle, or laptop.
|
| I think the Africans have beaten you to that idea already.
|
| https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_uk/news/c/cleaning-u/cleaning-u...
|
| On a more serious note though, repurposing old tech is
| perfectly valid, all we need is more programmers, so should
| programming become a mandatory lesson taught at schools in
| order to reduce e-waste, alongside Maths English & Science?
|
| And would it lead to a world looking like this
| https://i.redd.it/z123hws4wtj31.jpg or like this
| https://i.redd.it/shvbec21k8y81.png ?
| hosh wrote:
| There are some folks in the permacomputing community working on
| this in a generalized way. Some, like the folks making CollapseOS
| and DuskOS foresee an eventual collapse, where our civilization
| is unable to fabricate new microprocessors, and so we have to
| repurpose and scavenge old ones.
|
| We're talking things like, repurposing z80 (such as in older TI
| calculators) as an environment for reprogramming
| microcontrollers.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| This is impressive, the energy efficiency of even outdated phone
| tech is way above server/desktop systems. It seems like phone
| technology will be the only viable computer technology for
| virtually all use cases soon. Arguably, Apple already realizes
| this, with their Apple Silicon computers now very similar in
| design to an iPhone.
| Steltek wrote:
| It's too bad that Apple hardware is arguably impossible for
| this use case. You can't flash a custom ROM so you're limited
| to what the OS allows (which isn't much). And that's only if
| you have a developer account that can still build and sign apps
| for old hardware/OSes, which also need to be refreshed every 7
| days.
| judge2020 wrote:
| Best case scenario is to stop updating the OS and wait for a
| jailbreak, which does allow you to run full
| virtualization[0].
|
| 0: https://worthdoingbadly.com/hv/
| Gigachad wrote:
| You can install custom OSs on the Mac line though. A Mac mini
| would make a great server.
| npretorius wrote:
| Has anyone ever looked into repurposing wifi devices like phones
| as mesh routers? Or open cell networks? They would have to always
| be plugged in but seems like a good start to an open
| infrastructure
| judge2020 wrote:
| > wifi devices like phones as mesh routers?
|
| Unless your uplink is bluetooth, it only has one wireless
| antenna, so you can only either connect to an AP or broadcast
| an AP, not both at the same time (AFAIK).
| arbitrage wrote:
| You can run a network dongle off the USB port (some phones)
| to have two network paths.
|
| A phone is never going to be a great node device for a mesh
| network, though.
| cjsawyer wrote:
| My biggest hurdle reusing old phones and tablets is the battery
| failing over time wile living on the charger. We need a project
| or company that makes dummy batteries that just report 100%
| full all the time.
| Semaphor wrote:
| On rooted android you can use Advanced Charging Controller
| (ACC) [0] to control at what levels to charge. I use it to
| exchange normal capacity for longevity.
|
| [0] https://github.com/VR-25/acc/
| Steltek wrote:
| I've seen at least one hacker do this. It's not so much the
| voltage but you need to provide a valid temperature sensor as
| well (the 3rd pin on most phone batteries).
| dendrite9 wrote:
| I noticed strange power behaviour in an old phone after not
| using it for a period and storing it charged. It seemed to
| run down, and have less room at the low end between 20 and 0%
| charge. I'd like to do something with the phone but I am not
| sure if I can easily get inside and access the battery. I do
| have an old galaxy 2 without a battery that I could do
| something with but I'm not sure what.
| jacob019 wrote:
| A capacitor across the battery pins will often do the trick.
| Gigachad wrote:
| Supposedly it's not just a software check, but the devices
| actually need a battery since the peak power usage can
| briefly exceed the chargers capabilities.
| ianai wrote:
| Couldn't that be done in software?
| cjsawyer wrote:
| I'm imagining firmware level checks, but both directions
| should probably be investigated
| 1-6 wrote:
| There should be something like a 'right to repurpose' for old
| tech. The only reason I keep old PCs laying around is because the
| BIOS allows anything to come along and install on it.
| S201 wrote:
| More than that, there should be a "right to do whatever the
| hell you want" from day one. It's your device, you paid for it,
| and you own it, yet for whatever reason we allow these
| companies to tell us how we can use the hardware we paid for
| and own.
| mouse_ wrote:
| I strongly believe, after 5 years, every device with more than
| ~10,000 units shipped should have its bootloader unlocked, and
| its microcode/any necessary drivers opened up. Failure to open up
| should result in your license to sell new devices suspended.
| Unless we do something like this, we're headed towards
| potentially infinite e-waste. You can make the argument that
| everything should be a black box for security's sake, but
| x86/Apple laptops for example have unlocked bootloaders while
| maintaining security by means of OS encryption. The idea that
| security and privacy are fundamentally at odds is in my opinion
| industry gaslighting. People should have 100% control of the
| hardware they own, and 100% choice of the software they run on
| it.
| judge2020 wrote:
| But unlocking the bootloader, even only once official major
| updates has stopped, is a risky business move due to activation
| lock and Find My iPhone.
|
| If they did this, there's a good chance phone theft creeps back
| to high levels, since thieves could just
|
| 1. wait until Apple releases new firmware that unlocks the
| bootloader
|
| 2. use that new firmwaare to wipe the memory that handles
| activation lock
|
| 3. re-install a fresh iOS
|
| 4. resell the phone
|
| iPhone 8's still go for over $100 on eBay, so it's not
| unprofitable to 'inventory' stolen phones by throwing them in a
| desk drawer to sell within a few years.
| Gigachad wrote:
| Android already has a solution to this. Unlocking the
| bootloader requires disabling activation lock.
|
| Even back on the nexus line, if the phone was stuck in
| activation lock, you'd have to unlock with the google account
| and then with the phone unlocked you'd use adb to unlock the
| bootloader.
| bigape911 wrote:
| That's a lot of risk for $100 in 5 to ten years.
| judge2020 wrote:
| It might be for a small-time thief, but the more likely
| scenario is that they ship it to China (like they already
| do when they snatch an activation-locked phone and sell it
| for parts) and get $100 now, and the long-running shops in
| China do the long-term inventory for these phones instead
| of disassembling them for parts.
| jefftk wrote:
| Thieves are not known for their patience. Stealing things
| that won't be valuable for several years is not a very good
| business.
| jrgd wrote:
| > potentially infinite
|
| The moment we run out of rare minerals to build touch screens,
| there wont be an infinite e-waste problem anymore, unless we
| find some other fancy uses. It's a finite resource logic that
| is needed; that mindset should be adopted globally and there
| should be a general agreement on how to best manage these
| finite resources...
| 3-cheese-sundae wrote:
| Where's this license to sell new devices that you speak of? And
| if it's hypothetical, what's the definition of a device that
| such a license would restrict?
| belltaco wrote:
| Here https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/laboratory-
| divisi...
| RedShift1 wrote:
| The same should go for cars. I've got some bugs I want to fix
| on my in car entertainment system...
| hummus_bae wrote:
| [dead]
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| While I agree that this sound nice this will virtually
| guarantee DRM-encumbered features of devices reaching their
| legally-required unlock date will be set to fail immediately.
| That'll force those devices to become e-waste anyway. No more
| streaming videos, no more using your bank's app, etc.
| Teever wrote:
| Sounds like you've stumbled on another thing we need to
| regulate.
|
| We should do this sort of iterative thought experiment w.r.t.
| regulations all the time.
|
| It's sort of like compiling a big package of code. Just keep
| trying to compile and fixing the errors that come up until it
| compiles.
| kortilla wrote:
| Yes, regulating everything someone doesn't like has a long
| storied history of success.
| mouse_ wrote:
| I can still use my bank's "app" (read: web site) and stream
| videos on my desktop, which has an entirely unlocked
| bootloader.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| That's coming. Just wait.
| stuaxo wrote:
| See Windows on ARM based PCs.
| RainaRelanah wrote:
| I miss the days when computing was focused on trying to
| protect the user from developers. These days it's more and
| more protecting the developer from the users.
| ck2 wrote:
| If lineageOS (formerly cyanogenmod) is available for your old
| smartphone (or tablet) it will give it many more years.
| jabl wrote:
| There's also postmarketOS, which is more like a 'normal' Linux
| distro, so probably a better choice if you want to use the
| phone as some sort of compute node.
| alejoar wrote:
| What's beautiful about pmos is that you can use docker on it.
| Very easily you can set up a very functional home lab/server
| off an old phone.
|
| I did so with an old OnePlus 5
| EamonnMR wrote:
| Big if though. Each device requires special support from the
| community, and even big name devices don't always make it.
| victornomad wrote:
| This has been a bit of my philosophy with PHONK for the last 10
| years. "A framework for old and new Android devices"
|
| https://phonk.app
|
| Basically it is a device-hostable framework and IDE that allows
| rapid scripting to do interesting stuff.
|
| I made robots, IoT controllers, music devices, tools and many
| more with it!
| qup wrote:
| I would love to see a page or README section or something
| dedicated to showcasing some real-world examples of what can be
| built with PHONK. I tried googling it and didn't turn up
| anything, really.
| cdchn wrote:
| I like the UI stuff like the knobs, very cool.
| victornomad wrote:
| Thanks! :)
| enobrev wrote:
| I absolutely love this. Looking forward to trying it out soon.
| jedberg wrote:
| > Most of these unwanted smart- phones are neither discarded nor
| recycled but languish in junk drawers and storage units.
|
| The people who wrote this must not have kids. :)
|
| All of my old smartphones become PBS Kids devices until they are
| destroyed. Then they get recycled. Except for the one we lost on
| a plane. I hope whoever found it found a good use for it.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| Phones without an active sim can still dial 911. Risky to give
| to kids, unless they're older.
| lostmsu wrote:
| Never heard anyone complain about this. You must have had
| some rare things coincide to get to that conclusion.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| What do you mean? The phones can dial 911. That's just a
| fact. Curious young kids have been dialing 911 just to see
| what happens since before cell phones existed.
| qup wrote:
| In that case, what's the risk?
| yamtaddle wrote:
| 1) It's not great to tie up emergency resources without
| good reason.
|
| 2) It can get you angry, threatening call-backs from the
| authorities.
|
| 3) It can make annoyed and/or on-guard (because _there
| might be an actual emergency of unknown nature_ ) cops
| show up at your door--and if it happens more than once,
| there may be legal consequences in play, and possibly
| even the first time if they're in an especially foul
| mood.
|
| Consider that a young kid might well dial it over and
| over not even realizing the call's going through (if they
| don't know what it looks like when the call's been
| answered, and are used to speaker-phone mode and video
| calls and aren't used to putting the phone to their ear,
| which is true for a lot of young kids these days).
|
| It's probably fine for most 7+ year olds, but PBS Kids
| has a ton of content targeted much younger, and even kids
| 4-5 years old can usually learn to use the app pretty
| quickly.
|
| There's a faq on the 911.gov site advising parents to
| take the batteries out of phones they give to young kids,
| for this exact reason. It also advises that, if you
| accidentally call the number, you stay on the line to
| explain what happened so it's not mistaken for a real
| call, rather than hanging up--young kids are _highly_
| likely not do to this, and to instead hang up or just
| leave the line open without saying anything.
| arglebargle123 wrote:
| I think you're really overselling the risk here. At most
| any given kid is going to do this once, and the vast
| majority not at all.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| Jesus, I never expected these responses.
|
| Yeah, sure, do whatever I guess.
| [deleted]
| jkestner wrote:
| We have an epidemic of statistically unlikely things that
| people get disproportionately worried about, but this one
| needs more punching up to capture the public's
| imagination.
| lostmsu wrote:
| I mean that lack of people complaining means kids don't
| to it.
| kortilla wrote:
| Who would complain?
| lostmsu wrote:
| Basically anyone with kids would tell that as a story, if
| it happened to them or to their friends.
| public_defender wrote:
| There is actually a whole professional person whose job
| is to complain about this. When a kid dials 911 and the
| cops come and arrest people for no good reason, somebody
| is almost guaranteed to complain about it.
|
| It's me. I wake up in the morning, have coffee, put on my
| pants, then go to court and formally complain about
| things like this all day.
| fallat wrote:
| The Public Defender strikes!
| jefftk wrote:
| It's possible, but it takes about five steps: click emergency
| or open the dialer, press 9, press 1, press 1, press call. At
| least with my kids they've had the maturity to only call 911
| when it was appropriate long before they would have been able
| to figure that out on its own.
|
| (And I taught them how to do this on my phone as soon as I
| thought they were old enough to do it, around 4.5y, in case
| something happened to me while I was watching them.)
| jedberg wrote:
| I hide the dialer deep in the menu. I also keep the phone on
| airplane mode.
|
| To accidentally call 911 they'd have to find the dialer, and
| press 9-1-1 in the right order. At this point they're old
| enough to know better, and before they were old enough, they
| didn't know what it was, so doing it maliciously would be
| unlikely.
|
| Also since the phone is on airplane mode, they'd also have to
| disable that first, because even emergency mode doesn't work
| in airplane mode.
| gowld wrote:
| What about the other 5 devices?
| jedberg wrote:
| We maintain an army of charged phones to avoid fights and for
| long trips when the battery runs out on one of them.
| Papychulo0217 wrote:
| [dead]
| smackeyacky wrote:
| I don't think that paper considers the issues of the batteries
| seriously enough. If you're going to build a cluster of old
| phones, I'd highly recommend disconnecting the batteries.
|
| A quick look at the phones in my drawer show two with swollen
| batteries and one with a battery that no longer holds a charge,
| which is the reason they all got retired. My appetite for risk
| doesn't include setting fire to a building to save money on data
| centre costs.
|
| I miss being able to change out the battery on a mobile and the
| push for making un-fixable phones has an obvious recycling issue.
| nielsole wrote:
| My Samsung Galaxy S4 for example won't boot without a battery.
| Also the battery protection circuit is checked for. To get the
| phone to boot without battery i had to remove the cell from the
| battery and then connect a power supply to the leads of the
| protection circuitry. Not without risks either.
| milleramp wrote:
| Phones won't boot with battery disconnected, there are very
| high current spikes, especially while booting. Also there may
| be a required boot check for i2c/spi handshaking with the
| battery.
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(page generated 2023-02-10 23:00 UTC)