[HN Gopher] Dual Coincidence is likely the most complex electrom...
___________________________________________________________________
Dual Coincidence is likely the most complex electromechanical game
Author : jdlshore
Score : 107 points
Date : 2023-02-10 10:40 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (newatlas.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (newatlas.com)
| joering2 wrote:
| Very awesome. But I am still waiting for someone to design video
| game machine like the one from James's Bond Never Say Never
| Again, where failure to protect your land from cruise missiles
| cost you electric shock to your hands!
|
| Call me odd, but I think such game would be tremendously
| popular!! Obviously before you play you will have to sign waiver
| but hey I guess YOLO!
| BlueTemplar wrote:
| It's on its 2.5th version already, check out links elsewhere in
| this thread ! ;)
| adamrezich wrote:
| there is still ample unexplored design space in the realm of
| pinball.
| doctorhandshake wrote:
| I love the edge-lit acrylic score display. The depth effect when
| it's changing is really special, and I say this as someone who
| really doesn't care for acrylic.
| syntheweave wrote:
| I remember seeing the /r/pinball threads on this, replete with
| pin fans complaining about how simple the playfield was. Nice to
| see it reaching completion.
| Animats wrote:
| Probably not the most complex. Look at some Japanese arcade games
| with jackpots.[1]
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0OnmhhFk9g
| rtkwe wrote:
| Most of that will just be microcontroller driven instead of
| being electromechanical though.
| ArtWomb wrote:
| Pinball Machines are Art. This reminds me of '/////////fur////
| art entertainment interfaces' Painstation, which was loosely
| based on the scene in Never Say Never Again, in which James Bond
| has to defeat Max Largo in Domination, the world's most deadly
| video game ;)
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PainStation
| rspoerri wrote:
| Students of our Game Design Bachelor were playing until they
| got bloody hands. Woman really do have a higher pain
| threshold...
| scns wrote:
| Which they need to give birth.
| uejfiweun wrote:
| I've played this at the museum in Berlin. Very fun game. And it
| really does hurt, I remember my buddy's wrist was practically
| raw from getting slapped by the thing so many times.
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PainStation
|
| I am upset that this excites me.
| yunusabd wrote:
| With a claim like that in the title, I would at least expect a
| comparison to other electromechanical games and a discussion on
| why this would be the most complex one.
| andy_cavatorta wrote:
| The individual playfields aren't very complicated compared to
| typical pinball. But all of the elements together makes for a
| lot of logic, channels, and code.
| ohwaitnvm wrote:
| It actually doesn't seem to qualify as an electromechanical
| pinball machine at all. Given the 17 computers in control and
| modern playfield mechanisms and sensors, it is almost certainly
| considered a solid state pinball machine.
|
| EM machines use much older tech - look at Gottlieb machines
| from the 40s-70s. Even they switched to SS by the end of the
| 70s
| andy_cavatorta wrote:
| Electromechanical as opposed to video, not meaning 'no
| computers'.
| syntheweave wrote:
| That's a pinball-specific nomenclature. From the outside, all
| the games are "EM": the primary nouns and verbs of gameplay
| occur relative to those mechanisms. The distinctions of "SS"
| and "DMD" exist mostly to describe the shifts in rulesets,
| servicability and audiovisual feedback.
| cbm-vic-20 wrote:
| This seems cool, but the article and the artists' web site don't
| show the game actually being played, only short snippets that
| don't provide much context.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| Yep, and on those snippets it looks like a bland pinball with
| "something" in the middle of those pinball tables.
| diydsp wrote:
| That "something" also got kind of underdeveloped in the
| article. It's a crazy system for moving balls aka resources
| from any machine into any machine. If you look closely at it,
| there's a lot going on :) Each one is made from a bunch of
| layers of acrylic with channels for the zillions of lights
| inside, and the solenoids to push out trapped balls, and also
| inductive sensors to detect if a ball is in there. It would
| be neat to see this type of exchanger incorporated into other
| pinball games! Although, given pinball designers' sometimes
| overly serious nature, it might not happen any time soon...
| andy_cavatorta wrote:
| To be fair, the playfields are pretty simple. But it's also
| my very first game. And it's nuts. I feel pretty happy about
| how it's worked out.
| TrainedMonkey wrote:
| > Dual Coincidence is capable of being played in this manner,
| although because of setbacks such as Covid-19, a global
| microchip shortage and a major earthquake in Mexico, it's still
| awaiting its full set of features - those may be in place
| within the year.
|
| This is likely key reason for no gameplay footage.
| elsewhen wrote:
| here is a video of the game in action:
|
| https://vimeo.com/784903495/2bcad6725d?embedded=true&source=...
| junon wrote:
| ... Which still doesn't really show any gameplay at all.
| andy_cavatorta wrote:
| The game works fine, actually. It's getting played every day. I
| just spent so long getting it working that I never got good
| documentation. I have, like, a thousand photos of solder
| joints, pinout labels, the moment when _the_ _problem_ happens,
| etc. I recently stitched together some of the phone videos I
| took in the middle of the night while I was there and working
| on it. There will be good documentation at some point. But not
| yet.
| lisper wrote:
| Hey, Andy, welcome to HN! DC looks pretty awesome.
| michaelteter wrote:
| The article says that the full gameplay is not possible yet
| because of shortages of chips that were intended to be used in
| the construction. So it is a work in progress, apparently.
|
| That is most likely why there's not a good gameplay video.
| Aardwolf wrote:
| Chips doesn't sound like electromechanical to me?
|
| If something with chips counts as electromechanical, then
| e.g. a flight simulator or racing game with force feedback
| joystick and seat is a way more complex electromechanical
| game
| michaelteter wrote:
| The parent post complained about the limited video of
| gameplay. And my response was about that video.
|
| I said nothing about whether the game was or was not truly
| "electro-mechanical".
|
| That said, I do think it's unfortunate that HN discussions
| tend so often to focus on these sorts of disagreements
| rather than focusing on the achievement or creations being
| shown. This is not a court room, where exacting definitions
| and adherence to them is so important.
| nuclearnice1 wrote:
| > I said nothing about whether the game was or was not
| truly "electro-mechanical".
|
| Indeed you did not.
|
| Likewise no one "accused" you of that grievous
| transgression.
|
| As a this is not a courtroom, perhaps it was more an
| observation than a charge to be defended.
|
| _Chips you say?_ Reminds me, chips aren't technically
| electromechanical are they? No no friend, they are not!
| In fact, it contains 17 computers . 17 computers, but
| only 12k lines of source? Yes feels low,...
|
| And so on, like a conversation? Where the contradictions
| are not accusation but invitation.
| mrWiz wrote:
| ICs can absolutely be used in electromechanical systems.
| Controlling motors, fans, or solenoids are a few examples.
|
| Force feedback in a joystick doesn't strike me as
| "mechanical" enough to count as "electromechanical" though.
| rtkwe wrote:
| Depends on what the chips are. There are chips that are
| just a number of logic circuits duplicated in a single DIP
| package for convenience. I'd still class things like that
| as electromechanical since it's all still deeply hardware
| based.
| thedaly wrote:
| > In any case, it's still an incredibly complex setup.
| According to Cavatorta, Dual Coincidence incorporates 17
| computers (running about 12,000 lines of code), six servo
| motors, 10 optical sensors, 12 rotary encoders, 35
| inductive sensors, 75 switches, 115 solenoid actuators and
| 704 channels of lighting.
| ElfinTrousers wrote:
| I'd say the difference is, in that flight simulator you
| could take away the electromechanical elements and still
| have a fully playable and enjoyable game. Having the
| electromechanical elements enhances the experience, but
| isn't necessary. Pinball, though, electrically controlled
| machinery is an inherent part of the game.
| pbj1968 wrote:
| Misuse of the term "electromechanical" in this context and
| honestly rather simplistic pinball playfields.
| cwilkes wrote:
| > "I'm growing corn, and at some point I'm going to need new
| shoes," explains Cavatorta. "And now I have to trade some of my
| corn - which is represented as pinballs - with the person who
| makes shoes.
|
| Pinball mixed with Agricola sounds like a niche product, so
| something I would expect from the MIT Media Lab.
| amelius wrote:
| Imagine an online version of this game ...
| waltbosz wrote:
| My cousin used to collect and restoring old electromechanical
| pinballs. They're actually pretty neat to look inside up close.
|
| If anyone is interested, I searched up this video that explains
| the insides of an electromechanical pinball machine.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBI1taVj3tI
| diydsp wrote:
| Heya, I worked for Andy doing most of the electronics on this
| project so if you have any questions about that, fire away!
|
| On the art side, I can emphasize some of what was probably too
| subtle in the article: A major part of this project was the
| sound. Andy is after all, largely a sound artist/sculptor! Look
| at this current piece "Whale" in the MIT Museum, his instruments,
| etc. https://andycavatorta.com/
|
| He went through a lot of thought to come up with the
| frequencies/scale, and the playing pattern of the chimes.
|
| He also went through great trouble and expense to make this
| pinball game have _no speakers /digital sounds_. The sound all
| comes from the clacking of the pinball relays (which yes, are
| driven by RPi's running Mission Pinball Framework) and most
| important, the 25 giant metal chimes in the center! One of his
| other people in his studio did the crazy work of grinding them
| all to just the right lengths and tuned them with a stroboscopic
| tuner. It took days and though she wore a full freezer suit
| (because it was February in Brooklyn and the heat was being
| repaired in the building after the building owner _died_ and his
| brother inherited it and had to take over), she would finish the
| day with aluminum dust embedded in all of her clothing.
|
| Also, the tangible nature of the piece was a stark reaction to
| the other pieces in the show, and in general, his experience as
| an installation artist in the Boston Museum of Science. Nowadays,
| so many installations are just tablets. Or maybe a PC with a
| mouse, etc. He wanted something more tactile than that, that
| moves, and makes its own side.
|
| Several people have commented on the acrylic displays and Andy's
| general overengineering. Yes, his style is almost always
| overengineered, love or it hate it, that's part of the work. He
| likes big, heavy, arduous things. personally theorize it has
| something to do with his gigantic muscle growth genetics, though
| he does not work out!
|
| The Acrylic displays were scaled up from some person's random
| Arduino project.... and it turns out the upscaling was full of
| surprises! We needed a _ton_ of extra light to make them glow.
| There weren 't many LED strips available that were narrow enough,
| and a bunch of them broke in transit to Mexico. This was due to
| the sharp edges of the acrylic vibrating and sawing through them!
| And receiving a package of replacements from DigiKey was not
| simple. He had to do a lot of paperwork and travel for hours in
| an Uber to get the package of replacements. Also, just keep those
| pieces of acrylic clean, dust-free and hand-grease free was a
| pain! Also here's another secret: Andy almost never uses CAD for
| his projects. This was his first, or one of his first big
| projects with CAD and he made the classic mistake of designing
| the container for the acrylic displays with no space for
| fasteners! Fortunately, he managed to make it work. Behind the
| rear of those displays are dozens and dozens of mini boards with
| FET drivers and constant current drivers... all driven from
| cascaded shift registers!
| giuliomagnifico wrote:
| That's massive (and cyberpunk)! But the description is not clear,
| or I don't understand, all the 5 players play together or one
| against each other to reach the best score?
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I believe it's a demonstration of economics, in that... it
| could go either way. I do want to believe it's a game where if
| everyone works together, everyone will get a high score
| together - demonstrating selfish vs selflessness in economics.
| andy_cavatorta wrote:
| It was hard for the journalist to summarize without getting too
| wordy. Here's how it works.
|
| The game starts and scores like normal pinball. Each playfield
| also produces a resource [corn|carpentry|medicine|shoes|water]
| by playing. The carousel at the head of the game represents
| _resources_ from others as balls. You need one of each in your
| carousel to be healthy and capable. These resources expire as
| you play, and you cannot get a new playfield ball until you
| replenish them by trading with other players for them. So you
| are playing and then having to stop and negotiate with other
| players.It 's got an unpredictable social component.
|
| There is a second round in which everybody is using money and
| the transactions happen without social complications.
|
| This is mostly explained by just-in-time illuminated signage
| inside the playfield.
|
| It's fun to play. But it's missing a lot of things the pinball
| purists care about. It's not designed to be a superior pinball
| game. It's about getting inside of two different dynamics of
| production and trade.
|
| Also, the game is in a simplified state at the moment because I
| ran out of time dealing with the endless challenges. But this
| are the rules as designed.
| theelous3 wrote:
| You could read the article? Players each have a score. What
| they do with that is up to them.
| andreareina wrote:
| > _Please don 't comment on whether someone read an article.
| "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be
| shortened to "The article mentions that"._
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| eternityforest wrote:
| I'd love to see a virtual simulated version on 5 standard arcade
| cabinets, the physical aspect definitely adds something, but the
| concept is cool enough that it would still be amazing just as a
| LAN party type game.
| michaelteter wrote:
| It's all amazing, but that edge lit layered number display is
| really something special!
| relwin wrote:
| Building your own pinball game is challenging! Here's a site to
| get you started:
|
| https://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
| sublinear wrote:
| The complexity for its own sake reminds me of some projects I've
| worked on before. Cool as art, but terrible engineering.
| andy_cavatorta wrote:
| It's also the heaviest pinball game in the world. -\\_(tsu)_/-
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-02-10 23:01 UTC)