[HN Gopher] The Black Ships Shock: A Historic Encounter That Cha...
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The Black Ships Shock: A Historic Encounter That Changed Japan
Author : rntn
Score : 46 points
Date : 2023-02-07 13:11 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nippon.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nippon.com)
| user982 wrote:
| 22 years later, Japan copied this gunboat tactic closely to force
| the opening of Korea, taking the first steps toward annexation
| and empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Korea_Tre
| aty_of_...).
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| Reminds me of that anti-drug commercial from the 80's.
|
| >"Who taught you how to do this?"
|
| >"You, dad! I learned it from watching you!"
| notadev wrote:
| In short, Commodore Perry wanted to trade with Japan. Being
| isolationist they declined. So Perry believed they would have to
| be persuaded by force. He launched a barrage of cannons while
| anchored in Tokyo Bay. Supposedly they were just gunpowder
| explosions celebrating US Independence Day, but it was likely a
| show of force that eventually persuaded the Japanese to open
| trade relations.
|
| If this were in the US or UK, Perry would likely be hated for
| whatever and his statue torn down. In Japan, they have multiple
| statues and celebrate Perry's opening of trade relations every
| year with the Black Ship festival in Shimoda, Japan. The festival
| includes food stalls and even a parade. I've gone a few times,
| it's nothing particularly interesting but a good experience
| overall.
| blipvert wrote:
| Japan has a very compliant and deferential citizenship - how do
| you think you'd get along with that?
|
| (Edit: had -> has. flippin' phone)
| linksnapzz wrote:
| The Japan-American Society of RI has a complementary Black
| Ships festival in Newport & Bristol; not a huge show but
| there's usually a formal dinner & taiko concert with
| representatives from the City of Yokohama and the JMSDF.
| LarryMullins wrote:
| What boggles my mind is that less than 100 years after this
| happened, the Imperial Japanese Navy was able to give the US
| Navy a serious run for their money. The rapid industrial and
| technological development of Japan is hard to comprehend.
| Medieval feudalism to an industrial powerhouse in just a few
| decades.
| hangonhn wrote:
| IIRC, Japan had a very robust banking system by the time this
| happened so were able to finance a lot of the capital
| intensive developments and industrialization necessary for
| them to quickly catch up.
| benzofuran wrote:
| Dan Carlin's Hardcore History (episode 1:
| https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-
| history-62-supern...) recently did a great series "Supernova
| in the East" on the modernization of Japan and the internal
| politics. If you've got some time (drive or such), it's well
| worth the listen and there's a great diversity of sources.
| caycep wrote:
| does he have a book list for that period?
| benzofuran wrote:
| Book list: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/177152.Dan_C
| arlin_s_Hard...
|
| For some reason it didn't get appended to the podcast
| descriptions
| JoeDaDude wrote:
| Not to mention giving China and Russia a run for their
| territory, first in the 1894 Sino-Japanese war, only some 40
| odd years after opening up to world trade and rapidly
| industrializing.
| senthil_rajasek wrote:
| "If this were in the US or UK, Perry would likely be hated for
| whatever and his statue torn down."
|
| I am originally from India. There are still monuments
| commemorating British kings (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_of_India) personally I
| want them to be torn down.
|
| I am not comparing Japan with Colonial India but I know that in
| 2023 colonialism and imperialism should not be celebrated.
| valarauko wrote:
| As an Indian, I find the mention of the Gateway of India in
| this context odd, since it's the least egregious of the lot.
| Nor has there been any mainstream demand to tear it down.
| Locals don't treat the site with any tangible connection to
| the British Raj, and are at best indifferent to it. There is
| the plaque, but nobody seems to care.
|
| Contrast with the Victoria Memorial, the largest memorial to
| any monarch anywhere, the site is replete with statues of
| British monarchs and Governors. Bengal as a province has the
| longest history of British colonialism, and probably had
| suffered the most of any Indian region the ills of
| colonialism. Despite that, there hasn't been any mainstream
| demand to tear the place down, or even the statues. The
| locals are very knowledgeable about their colonial history,
| but seem fine with the statues and enjoy it as a place to
| hang out.
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| One major difference is that Japan managed to open to trade
| while keeping control of their country, benefitting from the
| former and using it to rapidly develop and modernize, while
| not losing autonomy and sovereignty, across the entire
| colonial era, at least up until they lost WWII. India
| obviously had a very different experience with colonialism.
| hef19898 wrote:
| If the statutes of british monarchs were raised during their
| reign, or shortly after, those statues now represent history.
| A bad bit of history, but history none the less. If they were
| erected _way_ later, they celebrate this bad pit of history
| and can be torn down.
|
| History does not have to be celebrated, it definitely has to
| be remembered so.
| vore wrote:
| Well, Nazi monuments erected during Nazi Germany are pretty
| taboo but we still have other ways of remembering the
| history. I'm personally not sold that we have to preserve
| giant monuments to loathed people for the sake of
| remembering history.
| LarryMullins wrote:
| You guys still have a lot of flak towers around, although
| to be fair those were built to be indestructible.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Well, there are still Hitler's (and others') letter boxes
| in the Reichstag, along with all other letterboxes for
| every dully elected MP up to the latest election, and
| future ones.
|
| WW2 and holocaust memorials can be found all over the
| place, ranging from impressive, and depressing, sites
| like Dachau Concentration Camp to a some ruins and a
| explanation at sites of former KZ satelite locations
| somewhere in the woods. Not everything the Nazis built
| was torn down. And I highly doubt there are Churchil or
| Auchinlek statues in former Bengal, and if there are,
| sure, get rid of those.
| senthil_rajasek wrote:
| If walls can become memories, statues and monuments can be
| torn down without losing their place in history.
| bboygravity wrote:
| What?
| Luc wrote:
| I guess the Berlin Wall is a memory... Not quite because
| parts of it remain.
| hef19898 wrote:
| And not leaving parts it up was not appreciated by
| everyone.
| thelock85 wrote:
| Berlin Wall.
| Tor3 wrote:
| The Meiji restoration, as this was called, removed the
| Shogunate (=top dog warlord) which had ruled for a good
| couple hundred of years and re-inserted imperial rule (i.e.
| the Japanese emperor was again the ruler). This was done by
| the Japanese themselves (a bit of civil war took place for
| this to happen[0]). There was no external rule forced on
| Japan after Perry's black ships. No colonialism or external
| imperialism involved, so it's not really comparable to
| anything else.
|
| [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boshin_War
| senthil_rajasek wrote:
| My comment was about Perry, who used violent threats to
| open trade with Japan, still being celebrated in Japan.
| Tor3 wrote:
| There was indeed a bit of (at least apparent) threat
| involved. No colonialism or imperialism though - Japan
| has never been a colony of anyone as long as Japan as a
| nation has existed (which is, officially, since around
| 660BC [0]
|
| [0]
| https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/japans-
| nat... (which should probably be taken as seriously (or
| not) as the foundation of Rome in 753 BC)
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| There was the occupation post-WW2, which is somewhat
| similar, if much more understandable than typical
| colonization/imperialism.
| leviathant wrote:
| >If this were in the US or UK, Perry would likely be hated for
| whatever and his statue torn down.
|
| You're being ridiculous, @notadev. While I realize that by
| engaging, I'm falling into the trap of wrestling with a pig, no
| one's torn down any statues of Matthew Perry in the US.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| I think the gp meant that if some foreign figure had forced
| their way into to the US or UK with martial threats, they
| would not be celebrated today the way he is in Japan - though
| I also wonder how enthusiastic this celebration is, as
| opposed to politely commemorating it.
| zizee wrote:
| > If this were in the US or UK, Perry would likely be hated for
| whatever and his statue torn down
|
| I'm not much of a history buff, but the UK has been subject to
| invasions/colonialism multiple tines in tbeir history, and
| there are statues and events to commemotate these events.
|
| I haven't much time, but here is an example, commemorating the
| Battle of Hastings:
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-37649912
|
| I'm sure there are many other and better examples to be found.
| pfisch wrote:
| Don't tell thanksgiving.
| labrador wrote:
| I almost know how they felt because the first time I saw a US
| aircraft carrier up close I felt a similar sense of awe and
| curiosity at this immense machine and it's operation.
| [deleted]
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