[HN Gopher] Procrastination and the priority of short-term mood ...
___________________________________________________________________
Procrastination and the priority of short-term mood regulation
Author : ValentineC
Score : 155 points
Date : 2023-02-06 06:52 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (compass.onlinelibrary.wiley.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (compass.onlinelibrary.wiley.com)
| ttul wrote:
| ADHD is commonly thought of as a disorder of attention, but it
| also has a nexus of dysfunction in mood regulation. I am
| simplifying, but people with ADHD don't generate enough dopamine
| to stimulate the circuits that regulate emotion. Most people with
| ADHD therefore experience heightened emotional responses to
| negative stimuli. This leads to all sorts of problems with
| relationships and work.
|
| Procrastination is the art of avoiding the emotional pain that
| happens when you think about working on something you find
| distasteful or boring. ADHD presents two problems in relation to
| procrastination: first, ADHD gives you a lifetime of training in
| the pain of focusing on difficult or boring work. And second,
| when you experience the feeling that something will be difficult
| or boring, you don't properly regulate that feeling. It becomes
| overwhelming.
| AB1908 wrote:
| > but people with ADHD don't generate enough dopamine to
| stimulate the circuits that regulate emotion. Most people with
| ADHD therefore experience heightened emotional responses to
| negative stimuli. This leads to all sorts of problems with
| relationships and work.
|
| Would you have a citation for this?
| mxmilkiib wrote:
| Fwiw https://www.additudemag.com/tag/emotional-dysregulation/
| ttul wrote:
| https://www.adhdevidence.org/ics#Emotional
|
| 103. A study of over 8600 youths from the U.S. National
| Health Interview Survey found that those with ADHD were four
| times as likely to have a high level of emotional and conduct
| problems and three times as likely to have a high level of
| peer problems. It also found that they were eight to ten
| times as likely to manifest a high level of impairment with
| home life, friendships, classroom learning, and leisure
| activities (Strine et al., 2006).
|
| 104. A meta-analysis of 22 studies with over 21,000
| participants found that youths with ADHD were strongly
| impaired in the ability to modulate their reactivity to novel
| or stressful events (Graziano and Garcia, 2016). Another
| meta-analysis, combining twelve studies with over 1900
| participants, found that adults with ADHD had very elevated
| levels of emotional dysregulation compared with normally
| developing controls (Beheshti et al., 2020).
|
| 105. A meta-analysis found that children with ADHD had
| medium-to-large impairments in socializing with peers as
| measured by rejection/likability, popularity, and friendships
| (61 studies, over 24,000 children). They also had moderate
| impairments in social skills such as sharing, cooperating,
| turn-taking, reciprocity (68 studies, over 148,000 children),
| and social-information processing, such as recognizing social
| cues, identifying problems, generating solutions, and
| avoiding biases (23 studies, over 3750 children) (Ros and
| Graziano, 2018).
|
| 106. A study of over 53,000 U.S. children from the National
| Survey of Children's Health found that those with ADHD were
| 2.4 times as likely to engage in bullying (Montes and
| Halterman, 2007). A more recent study of some 64,000 children
| using the same database confirmed this finding, reporting
| that those with ADHD were 2.8 times more likely to engage in
| bullying (Benedict et al., 2015).
| coldtea wrote:
| It might not be on the DSM yet (and the DSM itself isn't some
| holy gospel) but it can be found very widely reported:
|
| https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-shrink-
| tank/2020...
| rednerrus wrote:
| I have another hypothesis that one of the issues with ADHD and
| mood regulation is that the "clock" in our brains are broken.
| This leaves us with an inability to understand that "episodes"
| have beginning, middles, and ends. While the episode is
| happening we tend to believe that it will never end. We can't
| see the end. This is part of what keeps us frozen. Why would we
| want to enter a task that will continue to feel overwhelming
| indefinitely. This is why pomodoro and other strategies that
| clearly define the end are so effective. It allows us to
| offboard the clock management part of it that is so difficult.
| It's clear when the end is.
|
| I think this is actually a skill that we can learn on our own.
| I haven't fully fleshed this part out yet.
| 8ytecoder wrote:
| ADHD is an issue with underdeveloped executive functions.
| They can lead to time blindness, emotional disregulation and
| low functional memory.
|
| Basically, you start something without actually planning or
| having a good grasp of how long it would take, then start
| doing and get distracted by even the tiniest of distractions
| and forgetting where you were before the distraction. Rinse
| and repeat, every single day you develop other coping
| mechanisms to avoid the repeated failure.
| gopalv wrote:
| > Procrastination is the art of avoiding the emotional pain
| that happens when you think about working on something you find
| distasteful or boring
|
| There's a whole other class of procrastination that sits in the
| ADHD spectrum, which is because the "Hyperfocus time" is just a
| massive bump in your abilities and you want to use that time to
| do the most important things in your life.
|
| I've got my tax documents right in front of me behind this
| screen. I'm just waiting for that dip into hyperfocus flow to
| pick it up and just do it in one go, instead of accidentally
| ending up wasting that focus on something mundane. You
| literally save up your TODO list, because you know there'll be
| a clearing of the fog and you can go a million miles an hour
| through your tasks.
|
| I don't know if you experience procrastination the same way,
| but the version I experience is best called "defeatist
| perfectionist", a bit of it is the upbringing of "don't start
| if you can't finish it" from food on a plate to art.
|
| Picking up a jigsaw puzzle is weighing my energies to get
| through it, before I even start.
|
| Daily life feels like that swim scene from Gattaca.
|
| I've not got enough of a problem to go get diagnosed or
| medicated, but I've had to find my own way to program in my
| productivity triggers and they work for me in almost all
| scenarios. And the only real struggle I have to deal with is
| people in my life telling me "That's not the way to do it" for
| something which works for me, to just accept the feedback and
| not react to it personally.
| tene wrote:
| > Daily life feels like that swim scene from Gattaca.
|
| > I've not got enough of a problem to go get diagnosed or
| medicated.
|
| Hmm...
| ttul wrote:
| To each their own. The DSM criteria require that the
| impairments be significant, ergo if you don't think they
| are, you don't have ADHD.
| MoOmer wrote:
| Here's a thread on a technique to get a handle on short term mood
| regulation, rather than using coping techniques like
| procrastination.
|
| I'm not sure if it works, but I'll be trying it soon!
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/selfimprovement/comments/c42i6f/pro...
| Jarwain wrote:
| Interestingly enough I recently started taking St. John's Wort to
| help manage & regulate my mood and it's been surprisingly
| effective at helping deal with some of my procrastinate-y
| tendencies!
| MoOmer wrote:
| For others who read this and are curious, here's a good
| article: https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/st-johns-wort
|
| St Johns Wort interacts dangerously with a number of other
| drugs.
|
| There is evidence for a higher-than-placebo effect on mild to
| medium depression, but not enough evidence for claims made
| against ADHD.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Also, do not use if you're bipolar. It can trigger mania
| and/or psychosis.
| xattt wrote:
| Anytime I read research like this, I think about how the opposite
| of the suggested positive changes can be applied (and how it
| would look like) in order to weaponize the emotional well-being
| of an opposing nation.
| kyaghmour wrote:
| I've found that I can more easily get myself to get things done
| when I project myself into the future and remember the
| satisfaction of having done it. The _projected_ nostalgia of a
| job well done turns out to be a powerful motivator for me.
| chrisjc wrote:
| Almost sounds like a "dopamine advance". I think I could do
| with one (many) of those.
| isolli wrote:
| Conversely, after I'm done with a mundane but supremely boring
| task like filing taxes, I fail to experience any reward. This
| makes it just as hard to complete the task the next time. I
| know it will provide me no satisfaction. It's better at work,
| where I'm lucky to have interesting problems to solve.
| encoderer wrote:
| I've always been a procrastinator. I'm mostly functional. Decent
| career, business and family.
|
| About ten years ago I realized the truth that works for me:
|
| Mood follows motion.
|
| You can't wait until you feel good to do the thing. It's the
| doing of the thing that makes you feel good.
| dweinus wrote:
| That has worked well for me too. I am a chronic procrastinator.
| When faced with a new task, I "trick" myself by saying I will
| just endure the tiny bit of pain to get started in some stupid,
| basic way (e.g. create a blank document or write a list of the
| real work I have to do). Most times, after 5 minutes of pain, I
| will be over the hump and just keep working because I want to
| see it through.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| I had this realization as well. My method is to try for 30
| minutes. If it doesn't click by then, it's not going to.
|
| If I tried and failed, I'm not the problem, my disability is.
| bjornsing wrote:
| I don't think it's correct to see procrastination as only a
| negative. At least for me it's often a signal that whatever
| activity I'm trying to push myself to will not have the desired
| outcome. So as I see it procrastination is sort of the internal
| equivalent of a hesitant investor, asking "will this work really
| pay off?" That's a very important question, and asking it has
| obvious survival benefits.
| lazide wrote:
| It does - if the signal turns into addressing the underlying
| issue.
|
| So, if someone recognizes the tendency to procrastinate on
| studying on a test as a sign they need to study more, and then
| does it? Good.
|
| Getting stuck, then in a fear loop where they wait until it's
| too late to actually do well on the test, then hurt themselves
| trying to study at the last minute and do poorly (or just good
| enough)? Bad.
|
| Most people consider the latter behavior procrastination, and
| the first one not.
| bjornsing wrote:
| I think you misunderstood me. I meant that I see
| procrastination as a signal e.g. that studying for the test
| will not have the intended result of doing well on the test,
| or that I may not actually want to do well on the test. So
| the hesitant investor is asking "Do I really want this? Is it
| worth the time and energy investment of studying?"
| lazide wrote:
| Ah, ok thanks! That does explain it a bit better.
|
| But if you _actually_ believe it isn 't worth the effort or
| that you don't _actually_ want to do well on the test, then
| it 's also unlikely to be a stressful or unpleasant
| experience, right? Procrastination is pretty universally
| unpleasant.
|
| If it was really what you believed, you'd just not spend
| extra effort on it, and shrug when the expected result
| occurs, and you'd probably be right!
|
| My experience has been that is just not giving a shit,
| which isn't procrastination, per-se, and often necessary
| and healthy in at least some parts of our lives.
|
| Procrastination is the cycle of avoidance/anxiety/shame
| where one is trying to convince themselves of the above
| state, despite them not really believing it, as a way to
| attempt to regulate themselves. Reality almost always
| intervenes eventually though.
|
| One of the more common types of stress (in my experience)
| is when ones actions don't match what they know they should
| do to produce the outcome they want or need.
|
| And it's generally a dysfunction if it gets in the way of
| doing what they want, and can do, if they were better
| regulating. Anyone with ADHD is quite familiar with it and
| the analogy of 'the wall of awful'.
|
| The big issue with true procrastination, in my experience,
| is that the worse it gets, the worse it gets, and if
| someone gets to a certain point, it can become life
| destroying (ex: Hoarders, folks who avoid Dental issues
| until their teeth fall out, avoid going to the Doctor for
| that twinge in their chest until they die of a heart
| attack, etc.).
|
| Procrastination almost never happens when someone is
| confident in their ability to actually do something, and is
| in a place where they are actually healthy/feeling ok.
|
| So procrastinating to the point someone gets super anxious
| even if they eventually succeed, or fails at something
| really important, builds up 'the wall of awful'. Success at
| something, or feeling good when something is accomplished,
| tears it down.
|
| So for instance:
|
| If an investor gets the twinge of 'Do I really want this,
| is this worth the time and energy investment';
|
| - A good investor will generally notice and figure out - is
| this a self limiting belief on their side (and if so, can
| they resolve their personal issue healthily and then re-
| evaluate), or a legitimate red flag that it's not worth it.
|
| If they are so attentive and able to see what is going on
| with them and self-regulate well enough, they'll tend to
| pick more successful options in general, and avoid scams
| more often. That leads to more confidence in those
| decisions and in my experience higher overall returns. They
| won't be bogged down in failures they (kind of) saw coming,
| and will be able to capitalize on good opportunities when
| they present themselves instead of avoiding them or saying
| No.
|
| - A bad investor will not do so (and will resort to either
| dismissing the concern outright, or trusting it outright),
| and either force themselves to invest regardless (and hence
| be scammed more often), or not invest and miss out on good
| investments (and hence miss out on opportunities). This
| leads to more self limiting beliefs and real problems and
| they often work themselves into a deeper hole, or go
| bankrupt.
|
| As individuals, executive function is that same type of
| behavior but for our own actions.
|
| It can be, and is, exhaustible for everyone. ADHD, for
| instance, is the name we give to folks who have a harder
| time keeping it and not exhausting it. But everyone is on a
| spectrum.
| dboreham wrote:
| Of all the sources on this subject, I've found this dude to be
| the most clear and actionable:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QWIxElEnc8
| gessha wrote:
| HealthyGamerGG has very wholesome content
| mrleinad wrote:
| This MF helped me a lot, so here it is in case it can do the same
| for you. Read his book.
|
| https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/one-thing-you-should-l...
| datpiff wrote:
| (PDF)
| https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/91793/1/Compass%20Paper%20re...
| freefaler wrote:
| Thanks for the link!
| zwieback wrote:
| I reject the premise! Procrastination is a valid strategy in many
| situations, setting a task to a start of "as-late-as-possible"
| can be optimal in dynamic environments, both in projects as well
| as personal life. Much time and effort is wasted when we start
| something too soon.
|
| The key is not to feel bad about procrastinating, the key is to
| become better at estimating and planning for completing tasks.
| andai wrote:
| Sources are on my other device but I read this morning that
| people who score higher on the procrastination scale earn
| significantly less ($15,000 per "procrastination point", out of
| 10 I guess?) , and have significantly worse mental health.
|
| I'm procrastinating while writing this and I personally feel
| much better when I'm facing all my difficulties head on than
| when avoiding them. I'm just so tired lately...
| zwieback wrote:
| Thanks, that would be an interesting read, post the source
| here if you can.
| fumeux_fume wrote:
| I think procrastination should imply that there's likely no
| benefit in delaying the task at hand. But I agree that the
| "start as-late-as-possible" strategy can be beneficial in a
| wide array of situations. When I was getting my degree I
| learned that starting projects ASAP was foolish because the
| professor often changed the scope or made important
| clarifications about a week before it was due.
| ChainOfFools wrote:
| if you do it at the last minute, it only takes a minute to do!
| feoren wrote:
| Lots of people are here saying ADHD meds helped them a lot. I
| have also seen people say ADHD meds led them to a psychotic
| breakdown. I have also seen people say that ADHD meds helped for
| a few months and then became their "baseline" again, and they
| were stuck taking them for the rest of their lives with no
| benefit. It seems like such a huge gamble to even start.
|
| Even if I did decide ADHD meds would help me, good fucking luck
| trying to get them! It would mean spending thousands of dollars
| talking to different psychologists, most of whom would do
| absolutely nothing for me. I'm not anti-psychology as a
| discipline, but the way it's practiced in the U.S. is shameful.
| 30-minute phone sessions where they barely remember who you are
| since the last time they talked to you; you tell them about your
| life and they go "wow, that sounds really hard" ad nauseum until
| the call is over, and pretend like that has done a goddamn thing
| to help you. I'd have better luck talking to fucking ChatGPT than
| a psychologist. They never do a goddamn thing. That's the general
| attitude of every healthcare professional I've ever seen in my
| life. If it's not a standard procedure like a vaccination, then
| it's "what the fuck do you expect _me_ to do about it? " The U.S.
| medical system is completely fucked, _especially_ for chronic
| issues, and _especially_ for mental issues. So all you people
| saying ADHD meds helped you, either you don 't live in the U.S.,
| you bought them illegally, you are rich enough to have "a guy"
| for it, or you got extremely fucking lucky.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Let's unpack this a bit.
|
| - Psychologists do not prescribe medication.
|
| - No psychiatrist has asked me to unpack my life and feelings.
| They don't have time for that. They treat symptoms and had off
| the therapy to someone else.
|
| - Primary care doctors in the US can and do prescribe ADHD
| medication. (It helps if you have some history with them before
| you ask.)
|
| - While ADHD medication can trigger psychosis, it's rare. The
| marijuana people self-medicate with has a much higher risk of
| psychosis. Undiagnosed bipolar or schizophrenia increases the
| risk.
|
| - First-line ADHD medications the safest and easiest psych
| medication available. It works quickly and can be stopped just
| as quickly. They aren't addictive short-term.
|
| - ADHD meds aren't known to be addictive long-term. Ritalin has
| been in use for just about 70 years. If it was extremely
| addictive or did serious long-term damage (beyond the obvious
| stress on the circulatory system), we'd know.
|
| - A lot of the initial effects of stimulants fade as you build
| tolerance, but they still provide increased ability to focus
| over baseline. They are an effective long-term treatment.
| mahathu wrote:
| I can't break out of my pattern of (attempted) short term mood
| regulation anymore. I'm just trying to distract myself getting
| high and watching historical documentaries or netflix because I
| barely have motivation for anything more, yet something always
| triggers painful memories of my childhood and past years and I
| really can't cope. I hate being so alone but I couldn't stand
| acting like I'm okay anymore around people so I just end up not
| going to things and am even more alone. This has been going on
| for a few weeks now.
| tarokun-io wrote:
| In my experience, self-medication is a symptom of the need of
| medication, in general. You just have to find the right
| medication. Avoid benzos if you can, though. They are extremely
| addictive.
|
| Depression, dysthymia, ADD, ADHD, AED, for example, aren't
| things you can just will yourself out of.
|
| People who have experienced profound sadness at some point in
| their lives tend to assume depression is the same. They will
| then advice (with good intentions) people who are depressed to
| do what they did, since it worked for them.
|
| Just change this or that habit. But it's not how it works in
| reality.
|
| Also, there's nothing wrong with being alone, and there's
| nothing wrong with feeling bad. Society pushes us to be at the
| top of our productivity at all times, which leads us to feel
| guilt when we need to rest. Mental health IS health, and it
| requires time, in the same way you'd need time in bed if you
| had a surgery or whatever.
|
| Finally, there's no end goal in life. Life is meaningless. No
| matter what you do, if you're enjoying yourself, it's good. If
| you watch TV all day everyday for the rest of your life --
| that's perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with it. It's YOUR
| life. Nobody can tell you how to live it.
| isolli wrote:
| Benzos are addictive and destructive.
|
| https://www.benzo.org.uk/
|
| https://www.asprescribedfilm.com/
| halfnormalform wrote:
| And they do a whole lot of good for some people!
| ldh0011 wrote:
| Seconding avoid benzos, nearly saw them destroy someone's
| life and it seems like doctors prescribe them way too easily.
| sinoue wrote:
| You are self medicating and self isolating because you are
| suffering. Get help. You were meant to be apart of a community
| where you are loved and appreciated.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| I second getting help.
|
| Over the years, even up to the present time, I have tried to
| do all the right things like getting properly assessed,
| undergoing therapy, seeking proper medication, millions
| attempts to better myself, etc..
|
| I'm still doing _trying_ to do everything I listed above, but
| I have made little to no progress over the last decade, and
| in some ways, I feel that I have actually regressed. I have
| started to accept that I might be fundamentally broken beyond
| repair.
|
| I am not saying any of this to discourage anyone from getting
| proper help, I just think people should be aware that
| treatments are not a guarantee.
| bpanon wrote:
| Try 20 minutes transcendental meditation a day and some form of
| exercise everyday (lift weights 3x a week) for 30 days.
|
| I'll do it with you.
|
| https://youtu.be/IeRdy6LrOAI
| TurkishPoptart wrote:
| I'm biased against TM because you have to pay money to join
| in order to learn it. I am in favor of Vipassana (dhamma.org)
| because it's free.
| lightbulbish wrote:
| Consistently getting high (weed) greatly increases dopamine
| baseline, leading to other things being "harder" to start
| doing. It also increases negative thoughts (anxiety). weed,
| alcohol and other substances can lead to negative loop where
| you consume to feel better and feel worse the day(s) after due
| to the consumption, leading to increased appetite.
|
| There are many ways out, you just have to find one that works
| for you. Previous poster's suggestion are good. A psychologist
| can help. Detox. A trip to a new place. Late night hobbies with
| friends. Exercise is great.
| tene wrote:
| I've struggled quite a bit with problems that feel similar to
| your description. This book is what helped me the most:
| https://www.carolynspring.com/shop/unshame-paperback/
| mrleinad wrote:
| Motivation is s**. It won't last.
|
| Discipline is what you want. And you can build that no matter
| what. Just start small and go from there. [0]
|
| [0]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/55/34/a9/5534a9d2ac48a66cd341
| ...
| Throwaway020423 wrote:
| I suppose it depends on the person. In the past, I've tried
| to just be disciplined, stop procrastinating, and push
| through no matter what, and it lead to horrible burnout where
| I spent weeks/months being fairly ineffective. If you're not
| sleeping at all at night and can't think straight during the
| day, even for a couple minutes, you're simply not going to be
| effective. You're also liable to make really bad decisions
| that will drag on you even after you've recovered.
|
| These days I try not to worry too much about procrastination,
| and get as much done as I can. I've found lots of little
| tricks to squeeze out more productivity here and there. If
| I'm in a situation where I just need to buckle down and push
| through, I will, but I'm not going to risk pushing myself
| over the edge when it's not necessary.
| mrleinad wrote:
| Did you include exercise in your day? I mean, I'm assuming
| you have a well rounded routine, which may not be so.
|
| If you lack exercise, sunlight, or proper nutrition, lack
| of focus is the last of your problems to solve and more of
| an obvious consequence.
|
| I find it weird how all those things are usually overlooked
| and everyone jumps to ADHD or something like that.
| Throwaway020423 wrote:
| I did, and still do, but that's another thing that got
| severely screwed up by burnout.
|
| Routine is a good word. I have a flexible routine now,
| and it's effective enough. It's not the most disciplined,
| and there's procrastination, but I don't worry about it
| and just try to make sure that I'm moving in the right
| direction.
| aschearer wrote:
| So you're saying that discipline is like a large, powerful,
| commanding force that demands action? Sounds awful. Like
| being a child being told to do their homework. Can't we do
| better?
|
| Also can you explain what's going on in the second panel?
| Some strong underpants gnomes vibes. I mean, I like how easy
| it is, but I can't seem to find the switch in the mirror!
| mrleinad wrote:
| > Can't we do better?
|
| If you find a better way, let me know. This is the best one
| I found, and it doesn't depend on me having a good day and
| everything being hunky dory.
|
| > I can't seem to find the switch in the mirror
|
| Tidy your room. Start small. Grow from there. Plan,
| iterate, improve. Whatever you add to the routine, have it
| stick by sheer force of will and repetition.
|
| Fuck your feelings. I mean that. Whatever your feelings
| tell you, tell them to fuck off. You have something to do
| and you're going to do it. Period.
| skjoldr wrote:
| I have a very strong suspicion of having ADHD and I can
| tell you that the brain hardware that can tell feelings
| to fuck off is malfunctioning in ADHD and is fixed by
| elevating the levels of norepinephrine. It is literally
| impossible for me to apply the very concept of discipline
| otherwise. Yes, this condition is as terrifying as you
| now imagine it to be.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| No kidding. I am right there with you.
|
| I get that motivation is a fleeting feeling, but what
| about when discipline and willpower are too?
|
| I have succumbed to the idea that I basically just each
| day of my life like a game of roulette. Am I going to be
| productive today? Better spin the wheel to find out.
| aschearer wrote:
| Personally, I've been fortunate insofar as I haven't
| struggled with motivation. I'm happy you found a system
| that works for you, but truthfully it sounds harsh. Maybe
| some people simply need a dominant super ego that runs
| roughshod over their feelings to get things done... but
| the idealist in me hopes for something less
| authoritarian. Like, the whole dichotomy of "you" versus
| "feelings" strikes me as problematic. Your language, and
| the comic, seem rife with guilt and shame.
| mrleinad wrote:
| Anything that doesn't try to cushion feelings feels
| problematic in this age.
|
| I think we need to go back to the stoics, and forget
| about all this touchy-feely that being all soft is ok.
| Sometimes it's not ok.
|
| When did self-discipline become a bad word for so many
| people?
| aschearer wrote:
| Who said self-discipline is bad? Why can't we have self-
| discipline without shame, guilt, or authoritarianism?
| We're not children who need parents to force us clean up
| our rooms.
|
| Sure let's be stoic, but I don't agree that means "fuck
| your feeling" or looks anything like the comic you
| linked. There's a third way.
| mrleinad wrote:
| > We're not children who need parents to force us clean
| up our rooms
|
| By parent you mean yourself? Because I don't think you're
| getting the point that sometimes your mind needs to stop
| and just do the damn job. And you need to be in charge of
| it, instead of letting it wander on endlessly.
| aschearer wrote:
| Yes, by parent I mean the super ego or whatever metaphor
| suits you.
|
| I believe I understand your point, and agree with you.
| You're saying "sometimes your mind needs to stop" and
| that "you need to be in charge of it." E.g. your mind
| might be very anxious and distracted by an upcoming work
| deadline and seek to soothe itself by reading Hacker
| News, but "you" should stop that from happening, say by
| installing a site-blocking plugin for your browser and
| instituting and adhering to "work hours" each morning.
| Assuming I'm not way off target, I agree with all that.
|
| But it seems we're talking past each other, as I'm
| responding to your original comic strip which has more to
| say. The metaphors it uses, and that you have used in
| this discussion, depict compulsion. That's where I
| disagree with you. I believe force / shame / guilt work,
| but that we should aspire for a superior resolution to
| the problem. One not based on those principles.
| mrleinad wrote:
| > we should aspire for a superior resolution to the
| problem
|
| The superior resolution is that your mind gets trained
| not to wander off by constant repetition.
|
| Your brain will always seek immediate rewards, it's just
| innate to your monkey brain. You have to train it not to.
| Same as you train a muscle to grow by having it lift
| weights even though it would rather not because it's
| painful.
|
| Not sure why you say "shame" or "guilt", those were never
| part of my initial argument nor the comic. Force, yes, in
| the same way you force your arms to do push-ups or lift
| weights.
| BobbyJo wrote:
| I've been there. The thing I fine that helps is just doing
| _anything_ to disrupt the pattern. Go get your motorcycle
| license, join a gym, get a new wardrobe, paint your room, read
| a book, anything. If you can force yourself to do something
| other than what you 're doing just once, it'll be easier to do
| something else the second, third, forth, etc. time.
|
| I find the more disruptive that first change is, the easier the
| rest become.
|
| Hope this helps.
| TurkishPoptart wrote:
| Learn about how cannabis feels good for ADHD due to dopamine
| release: https://hubermanlab.com/the-effects-of-cannabis-
| marijuana-on...
|
| There are ways to quit. Quitting will help. For starters I know
| there is a reddit /leaves/ group for this purpose.
| blitz_skull wrote:
| A really easy start would be to listen to Andrew Huberman's
| work on Dopamine. Realize that you're stuck in a rut---accept
| it. Then start racking up tiny wins. I mean infinitesimally
| small wins. Then slowly you will work your way out.
|
| Don't despair. Everyone goes through this from time-to-time.
| feoren wrote:
| > This has been going on for a few weeks now.
|
| Wow. This one sentence really drives home how different human
| experiences can be. Being stuck in a destructive, painful,
| unproductive loop like this is awful and I'm sorry you're going
| through it, but wow, a few _weeks_!? It 's jarring to consider
| the idea that it's not completely normal for this to be one's
| life for years and years on end.
| TurkishPoptart wrote:
| I misread your message at first, I had thought you were
| astonished that someone's fallen off the productivity wagon,
| so to speak, for a few weeks. I've been dealing with similar
| stuff as the parent poster for probably half of my life, so
| decades. I feel like an unpatched human being, full of bugs.
| yes, I talk to a shrink, take the pills, stopped the
| addicting substance, and still struggle with self-destructive
| behavior, fleeting relationships, lack of romantic
| relationships for over 5 years, but other things have
| improved.
| mminich wrote:
| I found this one practically actionable and helpful
|
| > Motivation, broadly speaking, operates on the erroneous
| assumption that a particular mental or emotional state is
| necessary to complete a task.
|
| > That's completely the wrong way around.
|
| > Discipline, by contrast, separates outwards functioning from
| moods and feelings and thereby ironically circumvents the problem
| by consistently improving them.
|
| https://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need...
| kaba0 wrote:
| Atomic Habits is a great book on exactly this. I am really wary
| of the whole "productivity-boost" category, but this one book
| is solid from a scientific background and has good, actionable
| points.
| Disruptive_Dave wrote:
| The book "The War of Art" themes this out nicely for creative
| pursuits in particular.
| aschearer wrote:
| The post you linked reads like they're trying to sell me
| something. I find it hard to believe someone is truly wise when
| they begin their argument with "the first, more popular and
| devastatingly wrong option is..." That style of writing strikes
| me as being both condescending and manipulative. "Hey reader,
| you aren't a putz are you? No, you're a free thinker on the
| hunt for wisdom! So you'd agree that..." Guess I shouldn't
| expect too much from a site with that tagline, though.
|
| As for the argument about disclipline... That sounds appealing,
| but what is "discipline"? They say:
|
| > How do you cultivate discipline? By building habits -
| starting as small as you can manage, even microscopic, and
| gathering momentum, reinvesting it in progressively bigger
| changes to your routine, and building a positive feedback loop.
|
| OK so discipline is built out of habits, which are built out of
| small actions that gradually scale up. All well and good, but
| it feels like we're back to the original problem of motivation.
| That is, to cultivate discipline you must be sufficiently
| motivated. Seems circular.
| crosen99 wrote:
| I think motivation vs discipline is a false dichotomy. I'd
| argue that discipline is simply a form of motivation that
| emerges when the pain of avoidance can be adequately
| internalized. IOW, what we call discipline is just a
| conditioning that makes procrastination suck more than it sucks
| to do the task you "know" you ought to do.
| divan wrote:
| Why is this downvoted? Questioning the motivation vs
| discipline dichotomy is a very right thing. You may disagree
| with arguments, but then present the counterarguments.
|
| From the point of view of SDT (Self-Determination Theory, the
| main theory in psychology on motivation), discipline is
| definitely is one of the forms of external motivation
| (integrated or introjected one, probably). So I do agree that
| talking about motivation and discipline as two fundamentally
| different things is wrong, and reframing in through the lens
| of science of motivation can yield better understanding and
| actionable conclusions.
| blitz_skull wrote:
| I think that's just moving the definitions around. The
| traditional understanding of the word "motivation" is "the
| desire to do something". Discipline, in contrast, is doing
| something regardless of desire.
|
| So you can move the definitions around, but at the end of the
| day; there are still situations where people succumb to doing
| or not doing something based on emotion, and the decision to
| do it regardless of desire is still discipline.
| crosen99 wrote:
| You're saying that if you do something you otherwise don't
| want to do because you have the discipline, then you are
| not doing what you ultimately desired. Then why are you
| doing it at all? The only thing that directs you to "be
| disciplined" is the desire for what the disciplined
| behavior will bring you.
|
| You can call it moving definitions around, but at the end
| of the day if we don't ultimately do what we ultimately
| desire, then what really is meant by the word desire?
| lo_zamoyski wrote:
| I am increasingly convinced that procrastination and lack
| of focus are rooted in character flaws and bad habits, and
| as a result, that they are amenable to reform.
|
| If we look at, shall we say, the traditional definitions of
| perseverance, effeminacy, and delicacy[0], we find that
| someone who perseveres is someone who "does not forsake a
| good on account of long endurance of difficulties and
| toils". Effeminacy is the inability to undertake what is
| not pleasurable, whereas delicacy is the inability to
| endure displeasure ("properly speaking effeminacy regards
| lack of pleasures, while delicacy regards the cause that
| hinders pleasure, for instance toil or the like").
|
| We "moderns" are certainly a soft people. We cannot help
| but indulge ourselves, we cannot bear what we do not like,
| and we refuse to embrace the yoke. We are slaves to our
| appetites and desires. FOMO, which is opportunism, and a
| culture of instant gratification, are the result and the
| encouragement of the inability to forsake lower goods for
| the sake of higher goods, and so we undergo dissipation.
| And what is dissipation but a lack of focus? And what is
| the procrastinator avoiding if not discomfort, if not
| displeasure?
|
| Naturally, this becomes the default mode of operation when
| life is perceived to have no end. If there is no highest
| pleasure, no highest good, then all we have left are lower
| pleasures. Perhaps paradoxically, even the lower pleasures
| lose their proper flavor and become denatured in the
| absence of the highest. Thus despair is consummated.
|
| [0] https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3138.htm
| kortex wrote:
| > Effeminacy is the inability to undertake what is not
| pleasurable, whereas delicacy is the inability to endure
| displeasure
|
| Wow. Not only is that whole site preachy an woo-tacular,
| that definition is sexist AF. There are not many
| experiences more displeasurable and uncomfortable than
| carrying a fetus for 9 months and going into labor. To
| say nothing of monthly hardship for decades on end.
| jstarfish wrote:
| There's also the brain fog and forgetfulness, and the
| fact that their bones are literally being eroded for
| calcium in order to develop new skeletal structures,
| making everything that much more painful over time.
|
| Women put up with a lot of shit. A domestic violence
| victim will endure such treatment for years and may
| ultimately end up dead for it. The same sort of men
| behind that will open fire on random civilians in a
| crowded shopping mall just because their ego was
| threatened.
| slothtrop wrote:
| Discipline merely describes the phenomenon of consistently
| making certain choices in the long-run to achieve a goal. We
| leverage habit-creation precisely because motivation is
| fickle and habits can facilitate discipline.
|
| Feeling guilty or shameful is not what keeps people from
| procrastinating or making the wrong choices - that is a
| colossal failure in that regard, instead guilt just becomes
| the price of admission to do something other than maintaining
| discipline. Negative emotion is the price to pay to binge-
| eat, to avoid exercising, etc.
| rednerrus wrote:
| I think there may be an issue here where the two
| perceptions of the world are both right. For people with
| pain avoidance tendencies the part of their brain that
| creates reward may actually be damaged. So they can only
| avoid pain as there is no/diminished reward for them in
| completing a task. The feedback loop for people avoiding
| pain may be different than the feedback loop for people who
| are chasing a reward. This would be really hard to
| understand both ways if you had only ever experienced one
| or the other.
| rednerrus wrote:
| I think there are people for whom discipline is not the pain
| of avoidance but the reward of learning/doing.
|
| I think what you're describing is similar to this:
| https://www.physio-pedia.com/Fear_Avoidance_Model and is
| likely related to this:
| https://elifesciences.org/articles/74149. Our brains lose the
| ability accurately understand the level of pain the task is
| going to create. The feedback loop is broken.
| jsonne wrote:
| Speaking from personal experience I tried every trick, strategy,
| and everything else under the sun and it never worked which led
| to a lot of personal shame and anxiety that over time became so
| tiring and demoralizing it led to short term the occasional
| bought of depression. Talk therapy helped but wasn't enough. Saw
| a doctor in my early 30s, got diagnosed with adhd, and started
| adderall which gave me the ability to focus and get my life in
| order enough I had the space and energy to do the long term
| compounding things like exercise, getting my diet in order (I'm
| on a paleo-ish diet now), have time to meditate/journal etc. etc.
| The hyper focus on short term mood before I recognize now was
| really an attempt to get in the right head space to get work done
| but that process is exhausting and leaves little energy to do the
| long term right things. Maybe if I had the wealth to step away
| from work for months and purely focus on that I could have gotten
| to the place without medication to let the long term things
| compound but I don't think thats a realistic option for 99% of
| people at least in the US and especially with families to
| support. We can argue about the structure of society and if thats
| right or not but for my own life frustration at the general state
| of the world does little to improve my life.
|
| Stimulant meds are not a silver bullet but for some % of folks no
| amount of strategizing is going to help without medication and/or
| therapy. I use both and it's been enough of a push to see
| dramatic improvement. My biggest piece of advice if you're
| struggling with this generally is drop the shame. The shame that
| you struggle with it, the shame that you might need medication,
| etc. Then when the shame is gone you can be objective to do get
| what you need and stack the long term habits that make things
| easier.
| chrisjc wrote:
| > The hyper focus on short term mood before I recognize now was
| really an attempt to get in the right head space to get work
| done but that process is exhausting and leaves little energy to
| do the long term right things
|
| Apologies, but I can't quite parse this statement. Can you
| explain what you mean bc there's something about it that
| resonates with me but I'm not exactly sure what or why.
| jsonne wrote:
| If you're feeling like your emotions and physical state
| aren't well regulated you can't do meaningful deep dive work.
| Large swaths of your energy is spent simply trying to feel
| balanced enough to then get the things you want to get done
| accomplished. Many of these tactics are short term fixes that
| end up making things worse off later on. Think like drinking
| too much coffee to try and focus but you end up getting
| anxiety from said caffeine. You can barely keep up with the
| things you need to do _today_ and you don 't have the energy
| to do the things that will long term help. It creates a
| negative feedback loop where you're stuck in a purely short
| term mindset.
| gibquaaludes wrote:
| Thank you for sharing your experience. Weirdly enough, it's
| liberating to know that this could be a cure-proof terminal
| state.
| jsonne wrote:
| Well so for what its worth and I guess I wasn't explicit
| about is that at this point (just shy of 1 year medicated) my
| days I am not medicated (I take medication 4 days a week) are
| much easier to get things done now because of the other work
| I've been doing. As they continue to compound I'm hoping that
| in another year I can largely discontinue meds or switch to a
| less often as needed basis. So there is long term hope but
| for me and folks like me medication can break the short term
| cycle to get there. That said plenty of folks can't function
| with medication and there is no shame in that either.
| mkaic wrote:
| As someone who's also in their first year on Adderall after
| being diagnosed as an adult, this is really encouraging to
| read. I currently take it weekdays and take weekends off,
| and really don't want to take it forever because I don't
| like the idea of being dependent on it or building a
| tolerance. It's not so much shame as it is fear--I'm scared
| that I'll screw up my brain if I take it for too long,
| y'know?
|
| Anyhow, thanks for posting your perspective, it's nice to
| know there are other people in similar situations to my
| own. Have a nice day!
| hirvi74 wrote:
| > I currently take it weekdays and take weekends off
|
| I am not a medical professional, but my unsolicited
| advice is that this a good idea.
|
| I have been on various ADHD treatments for 8 years, and I
| honestly I am experiencing everything you mentioned and
| more -- tolerance, dependence, etc.. The medication
| barely works anymore (not taking it makes me literally
| useless, so taking it alter makes me normal), but
| basically every symptom I have tried to treat has slowly
| worked its way back into my life.
|
| I am in the process of taking trying to take more days
| off, and all I have to say is: even therapeutic dosages
| can cause a nasty withdrawal if taken consistently over
| long periods of time.
|
| I'm even considering taking a non-stimulant, but I need
| more convincing that said medications are actually
| effective.
| jsonne wrote:
| I similarly have that fear hence why I take 3 days a week
| in a row off and twice now I've taken 3 week+ breaks when
| I know that I can. Also there's a whole rabbit hole of
| supplements that can help supposedly and I've found some
| to be useful but the biggest thing is just intense
| cardiovascular exercise (and specifically cardio versus
| resistance training). That said yes a year on I take a
| longer term break and I feel exactly like I used to pre
| medication by day 5 so not worried at this point. Most of
| the long term dependence issue I've seen from folks is
| many multi year users 5+ so doing what I can to avoid
| that situation. Keep dose as low as possible, take
| holidays, and long term I'm working to use it less and
| less so its infrequent or only during stressful work /
| life times in the future.
| jstarfish wrote:
| [dead]
| chadlavi wrote:
| Eh I'll read this later
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-02-06 23:02 UTC)