[HN Gopher] Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering
___________________________________________________________________
Interview with the founder of Teenage Engineering
Author : ingve
Score : 138 points
Date : 2023-02-05 12:50 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (scandinavianmind.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (scandinavianmind.com)
| damver wrote:
| [flagged]
| [deleted]
| jacquesm wrote:
| Note the Moog Theremin sitting around casually used as a dump for
| patchcables!
| robocat wrote:
| Behind the Theremin is a kakelugn/kachelofen/masonry-heater
| fireplace.
|
| https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry_heater
|
| https://duckduckgo.com/?q=swedish+round+ceramic+stove
| fassssst wrote:
| I play my OP-1 during meetings and while waiting for things to
| compile. It's one of my favorite objects, I often get lost with
| it.
| scotteric wrote:
| Your coworkers don't have a problem with you being distracted
| and wearing headphones during a meeting?
| naavis wrote:
| Maybe they are referring to remote meetings where you can
| mute yourself.
| fassssst wrote:
| Yea I mindlessly plunk around on it while muted.
| prmoustache wrote:
| why don't you just leave the meeting if you aren't paying
| attention anyway?
| niekverw wrote:
| What sick modular synth does he have there
| sctb wrote:
| https://www.colossus-synth.com
| alkonaut wrote:
| Wow that's a lot cheaper than I expected. Unlike buying a big
| Eurorack it's also dooming you to eternal poverty.
| wayvey wrote:
| Colossus AS100 classic: PS26500K
|
| Colossus AS200 slim: PS23500
|
| Colossus DOUBLE: PS50000
|
| Limited Edition BLACK Colossus classic: PS27500K
|
| wow...
| Tomte wrote:
| Welcome back, Scott!
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| Which is a remake, kind of, of the EMS Synthi 100.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMS_Synthi_100
|
| Which was part of the world's first private computer music
| studio. In 1969.
|
| https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=2332
| jacquesm wrote:
| Hey there, that's been a while! Nice to see you here again.
| And thanks for the link, awesome piece of kit (a bit out of
| the budget though!).
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| On today's episode of "Im Rich, You're Poor"...
|
| Yeah you know even though I own a business selling overpriced
| hardware, I'm not materialistic, you know I even dreamed of being
| a povo but you know, the world had different plans for me because
| I'm rich.
|
| I sell overpriced aluminum audio equipment and you can barely
| make noise with sticks and stones 'cause ya a povo.
| tjex wrote:
| it's this comment that's impoverished from the lack of any real
| substance or value.
| rsync wrote:
| "On today's episode of ..."
|
| This kind of low-signal rock throwing is out of place on HN and
| I ask you to please respect (and possibly reevaluate your
| participation in) this community.
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| > and possibly reevaluate your participation in
|
| Don't ever talk to me or anyone else on HN this way. We have
| enough backhanded civility here, and you're not improving
| discourse by commenting like this.
|
| It's a parody comment of the "I'm Rich, You're Poor" segment.
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=on+today%27s+episode+of+i%27.
| ..
|
| It's a joke. Take a joke.
| [deleted]
| Entinel wrote:
| > I sell overpriced aluminum audio equipment
|
| And yet everything they make sells out. Almost like it's worth
| the price.
| gtyras2mrs wrote:
| >And yet everything they make sells out. Almost like it's
| worth the price.
|
| I dont think, A implies B.
|
| With great marketing and lower volume production, you could
| probably make most overpriced, average quality widgets sell
| out.
|
| Doesn't mean that because they're sold out therefore they
| were priced "right". (as subjective as pricing is)
| Entinel wrote:
| If you are stripping out all context then no A doesn't
| imply B but we aren't talking in a vacuum. We are talking
| about a specific company.
|
| > average quality widgets
|
| Everyone I personally know who has bought anything from
| teenage engineering has nothing but good things to say
| about the quality.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| It's weird that so many people anchor "value" to some
| absolute number, centered around their own valuation.
|
| This is a premium product. If you don't like the price, it's
| not for you. But it's clearly worth it to a lot of other
| people.
|
| Kind of ironic to read so many complaints about the prices on
| a website where "charge more" was the mantra in every comment
| section here for many years.
| weego wrote:
| I have to say though that the music industry as a whole,
| whether pro creator or consumer, is a great example of a
| market where cost and value can become disconnected based
| on myth and hearsay.
|
| Having said that, I think part of the allure of Teenage
| Engineering is musicians believing in the holistic package,
| not just the physical product.
| thrillgore wrote:
| They've made a couple of thing worth the money. The OP-1.
| That's about it.
|
| I would consider their Pocket Operators to be more than
| novelties if they would have provide god damn MIDI support
| ilyt wrote:
| Define "worth"
|
| "Status symbol few have" like luxury car is also "worth" to
| people, even tho objectively might not be that off normal
| well-specced car.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| Needlessly bitter and jealous take.
| [deleted]
| pengaru wrote:
| OT but this page is a breath of no-js-required fresh air for
| 2023...
| darkwraithcov wrote:
| So that's where all the profits from the OP-1 went.
| jandeboevrie wrote:
| Funny last name for someone living in a cold climate, KoutHooft
| translates to cold head in Dutch (minus the T).
| Towaway69 wrote:
| Perhaps slightly OT but I found building my own synthesizer using
| a cheap midi controller with a few dials and supercollider[0] to
| be very enjoyable experience.
|
| Somehow I have a better connection to making music since it was
| my own virtual Synthesizer and it does just what I need it to do!
|
| [0]=https://supercollider.github.io/
| ilyt wrote:
| If you have not already see in https://vcvrack.com/
|
| Modular synth emulator, all the plugging wires manually without
| the desk space and $$$ cost of modular synth
| KRAKRISMOTT wrote:
| These photos are carefully curated, real electronic labs are
| rarely that neat (unless he is only doing the high level design
| on EDA and letting his employees do the actual hardware and board
| work).
| cfr2023 wrote:
| I think the work of this company is fragile and shortsighted,
| encouraging creators to put their energy into a cascade of non-
| standard paradigms, but without creating any valuable new
| conventions.
|
| As such I do not enjoy hearing what their founder thinks about
| anything, or puff pieces about him, like this one. I'm open to
| being convinced otherwise but all of the new information I
| receive fits in with the prior assessment - they want your money
| for a cool looking music toy.
| strawpeople wrote:
| [dead]
| Gracana wrote:
| I don't see the problem, though I am also not sure what you
| mean. What is standard? What should people be doing instead? Do
| TE's products differ from other grooveboxes?
| ChrisThorton wrote:
| [flagged]
| neilv wrote:
| The photography of this is interesting. I'm not sure I'd know how
| to approach this assignment (I might start with rapport and
| portraiture in the space), but some things I noticed on different
| photos:
|
| * Warm vintage color cast on the '70s-looking gear wood panel.
|
| * On-camera-flash-like directional lighting, with harsh shadow
| (maybe to separate person from gear background, but both in
| focus?).
|
| * Contrast and saturation jacked up.
|
| * Bluish cast on shot composed like a point&shoot snapshot.
|
| * Shooting through houseplants, like nature explorer discreetly
| observing engineer in their native habitat. Maybe the plants are
| part of the character of the space.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| All of which says "stylised and arty" and is a look much used
| in The Wire and similar publications.
|
| I'm kind of irritated by this. TA are legendary for super-
| expensive toy-like products that must have insanely high
| margins. So somehow the "I was never into money (but now I
| collect antique synthesizers with four or five figure price
| tags)" line doesn't ring entirely true.
| smoldesu wrote:
| And people fall for it. It's crazy how many people blindly
| buy into TE's "homestyle" marketing like they're some hibrow
| synth company. The OP-1 tickles every American's "Product
| Cortex" in their brain though, immediately associating
| brutalist design and Corinthian leather with quality
| engineering. It doesn't matter if we're not the target
| audience, we just want to spend money on pretty things that
| make us feel good. The OP-1 is like the rich man's fidget
| spinner, I see it on someone's desk and assume that they have
| too much time and money on their hands.
|
| Just goes to show that you can take pretty much anything,
| market it to relatively affluent and bored tech workers and
| make a killing.
| psychomugs wrote:
| So... you judge character based on appearances?
|
| No other gear company has tackled the all-in-one synth-
| sequencer-4trackrecorder-groovebox that is the OP-1 in the
| decade since its release. TE _not_ capitalizing on this
| would be financially naive.
| ilyt wrote:
| Shh don't tell Uli Behringer about it /s
|
| I think it is because "just making same thing" is frowned
| upon and also industry cares to not eat itself.
|
| For example take Digitakt and Digitone. It could easily
| be combined into one device "it is just code" and CPUs
| got faster since release of those but they don't, because
| they know having those "blind spots" in each of their
| devices (that _other_ of their devices fit) is good for
| sales. Got a Digitone ? Want Drum machine to it ? Well,
| Digitakt got same interface you already know. Even their
| newest device Syntakt omits a lot of FM stuff to not step
| on Digitone niche.
|
| Also there is _plenty_ all-in-ones with more capability,
| all the way to monsters like MASCHINE+, MPC X or Force.
| People buy OP-1 coz they want to work within the limits
| and think that will make better music, not because it can
| do something unique anything else can 't.
|
| Which is understandable, given myriad options it's easy
| to get lost in tinkering with them instead of focusing on
| creation.
| whatshisface wrote:
| I am pretty sure real professionals use carefully
| configured personal computers with keyboards plugged in.
| ilyt wrote:
| Smaller devices are still used as notepad for ideas.
| psychomugs wrote:
| The same as how professional photographers use expensive
| 'real' capital-C Cameras with interchangeable capital-L
| Lenses but still carry pocketable point-and-shoots for
| 'fun,' e.g. Ricoh GR, Fuji X100. Tools should be
| enjoyable to use, which these gadgets offer in spades.
| whatshisface wrote:
| But in this case, the just-for-fun pocket device is more
| often expensive than the capital-K Keyboard.
| psychomugs wrote:
| Both of the cameras I listed are more expensive than many
| perfectly capable interchangeable-lens cameras (Ricoh GR
| ~$1000, Fuji X100 ~$1300 [currently prone to scalping for
| even more]), but still rightfully warrant the demand
| because of their usability.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Which is fine. If professionals collect them for novelty,
| nothing is lost. If a beginner were to spend all their
| money on a novelty camera instead of an interchangeable
| lens model, then it does become a bit of a waste. Almost
| like they bought into the hype because of the end-product
| or social sex-appeal, a phenomenon that ties neatly into
| TE's marketing.
| psychomugs wrote:
| They aren't novelties any more than using a prime non-
| zoom lens on an antique film camera is a novelty. That
| would be tantamount to claiming that playing on a large
| unwieldy needs-to-be-tuned acoustic piano is a novelty
| compared to a digital keybed with plugins.
|
| "The enemy of art is the absence of limitations."
| ta8903 wrote:
| Yep, if you really think about it people not overcharging
| for their products are the real suckers.
| [deleted]
| smoldesu wrote:
| My opinion is based off the weekend I spent with a rented
| model. I very quickly realized that the OP-1 is like an
| iPhone app that someone turned into pricy hardware.
|
| > No other gear company has tackled the all-in-one synth-
| sequencer-4trackrecorder-groovebox
|
| Seriously?
|
| Plenty of other companies have. If you're old enough to
| remember, Elektron had an _8_ track sequencer
| /recorder/groovebox that cost roughly the same price as
| the OP-1. Their mono model was actually cheaper than the
| OP-1 (and arguably nicer).
|
| ...which is of course to ignore the hundreds of other
| sub-$1000 grooveboxes that do 90% of what the OP-1 does.
| Hell, that's to ignore DAWs that cost 1/3rd of the price
| with 300% more features. If you buy an OP-1 as your
| introduction to electronic music, you are wasting your
| money.
| psychomugs wrote:
| That last 10% is precisely the point. Nothing AFAIK has
| the audio-oriented tape-style workflow _with_ a keyboard
| and groovebox functionality in as small a footprint as
| the OP-1. The reality is that the OP-1 has been
| successful enough to warrant a successor and that are not
| negatively affecting other manufacturers doing whatever
| they want to do with their offerings, and this affects
| you personally... how?
| smoldesu wrote:
| I just find it utterly fascinating how rich, clueless
| tech workers throw money at cool-looking companies they
| see on YouTube. It's so unfathomably stupid to me that I
| feel the need to share it on HN, but I realize in
| retrospect this community might not share my opinion.
| psychomugs wrote:
| It's unfathomably stupid to me that one would care so
| much about what others spend their money on, as if it
| were something actively harmful.
|
| To each their own, the only real winner here is the one
| selling their product.
| ilyt wrote:
| It's not "care", it's morbid curiosity about how psyche
| of humans work.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Sometimes I forget this is a business website first, tech
| website second. Touche, the abject waste of money is so
| easy to ignore when you contextualize it on a website of
| moonshot founders and Apple enthusiasts.
| psychomugs wrote:
| I have a fair share of dislikes of what people spend
| their money on, e.g. conspicuous consumption on fads,
| Teslas in particular, because they have or will directly
| impact my being as an individual through policy and
| regulation. The instrument someone enjoys making music on
| is so insignificant that it shouldn't warrant my concern.
|
| Then again, considering how little progress there is to
| be made with music technology and how much of the
| industry is buoyed by marketing and brand, it makes sense
| that people defend their choice of consumption so
| fervently.
| smoldesu wrote:
| If you don't care about it, nobody is egging you into
| further conversation. I talk about this stuff because I
| enjoy making music, and there is intellectually
| gratifying criticism to be made on the gear being
| produced today. If you don't care about that, then
| admittedly I could see how this is pedantic and
| pointless.
|
| Like I said above, it's my mistake for criticizing
| consumerism on a website that lives, eats and dies on how
| much people buy into arbitrary things like marketing and
| brand.
| strawpeople wrote:
| [dead]
| status200 wrote:
| Synthstrom Deluge does everything the OP-1 does (and much
| more), and was $400 cheaper until recently.
| psychomugs wrote:
| No UI, no keyboard requiring a different mental interface
| if you are coming from a traditional i.e. piano-based
| instrument, at least twice the size.
| heeen2 wrote:
| It's also much bigger and heavier though.
| strawpeople wrote:
| [dead]
| sramsay wrote:
| They're the Sharper Image of audio.
| kzrdude wrote:
| The OP-1 is an instrument though, it seems like a pretty
| amazing instrument for creativity for those that can use
| it. And most instruments are more expensive than it..
| ilyt wrote:
| OP-1 owner eh ?
|
| Sure it's cheap if you compare it to Stradivarius, but if
| you use instruments in same type ("a CPU feeding ADC/DAC
| with some knobs and buttons") it is one of most expensive
| one in category.
|
| OP-1 field (the only version they sell) is 2000 EUR.
| That's top end of synth world and you usually get more
| knobs and keys with that. That's the price of
| Korg/Roland/Yamaha workstation-level keyboards.
|
| Do NOT try to compare it on price with anything, it will
| always look like a bad joke. Subjective, might be worth
| to you etc.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I've tried a lot of grooveboxes in my time, and the OP-1
| is one of the only instruments I've ever seen that has
| _worse_ value-per-dollar than the DSI Tempest. Very few
| instruments are expensive and useless enough to justify
| this; the OP-1 is solidly among them though.
|
| All I'll say is that you should reserve your judgement
| until you've tried some competing products. The Playmobil
| laptop looks like a great way to do your Word documents
| until you try a Dell or Apple machine.
| kzrdude wrote:
| Which one would you recommend? For an easy to use low end
| starting point.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I'd probably recommend the Model: Samples if you're
| interested in sampling, or the Novation Circuit if you
| want to focus on synthesis. The Model: Samples in
| particular is great - it's an adaptation of Elektron's
| more expensive Digitakt that puts the core featureset in
| a more focused box. It would probably be my sub-$400
| desert-island groovebox choice.
|
| Edit: it's worth noting that both of these systems are
| sequencers, not tape recorders. I consider that a benefit
| (much longer record times) but if you want a multitrack
| recorder then you should look elsewhere (maybe a 4iXo
| DAC?)
| BenGosub wrote:
| You definitely got a point. I would say that they deserve the
| money because people love their products and are happy to pay
| the premium.
|
| I also think that as much as it is a cliche "never being into
| money" it's an important aspect of success, because you can
| either be driven by profit at one end of the spectrum and a
| genuine passion for a great product on the other.
|
| If you do succeed and become wealthy, then it doesn't matter
| if a synth is $500 or $50'000, you can have it.
| dole wrote:
| "Shit ain't broke unless you're broke, that's some real
| shit." - Lil Yachty
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| I get it though, there are lots of expensive things I'd like
| to collect, but it's about the object and not what it's
| worth. If they were cheap I'd still want to collect them.
|
| You see it a lot in art, some people collect only as an
| investment vehicle - others buy what they like without regard
| for future returns. Ones mostly about the money.
| hnhg wrote:
| It makes sense, because he is also a co-founder of Acne
| Studios[1], and they are about pretty high margins on
| unspectacular but nice clothing.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acne_Studios
| wyager wrote:
| Seriously, comparing my OP-1 ($1400, made in china, buggy,
| bad QC, small and simple hardware) with my Analog Rytm mkII
| ($1700, made in sweden, reliable, impeccable QC, larger and
| much more complex hardware) - the margins on these TE gizmos
| must be _insane_.
| xdfgh1112 wrote:
| There was nothing like the OP-1 at release and still
| nothing like it now. It is overpriced, but they arguably
| deserve it. They have the Apple business model.
| kzrdude wrote:
| I guess they know their market because the follow up OP-1
| Field is even more expensive
| wyager wrote:
| By what criteria is there "nothing like" it? Of course
| you can define "like" in a way to make this true, but I'm
| curious what you think are the salient differentiators.
| xdfgh1112 wrote:
| Portable all in one groovebox with a keyboard.
|
| Even ignoring the keyboard, the creativity and fun of the
| OP-1s tape and synthesis modes, things like the gyro and
| FM radio, are fairly unique. There is a reason it is so
| successful.
| wyager wrote:
| > There is a reason it is so successful.
|
| Yes, because it managed to capture a self-sustaining hype
| cycle powered by customers who for the most part don't
| really know what they're buying. It's more of a status
| item than an actually fun or useful musical instrument,
| IMO. This thread reminds me, I need to sell mine.
| alluro2 wrote:
| I was curious to hear about other products that are
| similar, but superior to OP-1, that previous reply
| alluded to.
| xdfgh1112 wrote:
| I'm not an expert but I suspect an iPad with some
| interesting groovebox apps would provide just as much fun
| and be more powerful.
| eric-burel wrote:
| As a beginner I think ipad + audiokit synths + impc pro
| is a killer setup
| wyager wrote:
| If someone said "I have a $1400 (or $2000, now that
| they've raised the price) budget for a lightweight
| portable jambox/production setup, what would you
| recommend?" I would tell them to get an iPad Pro, an
| external audio interface, and a MIDI USB peripheral of
| their choice.
|
| GarageBand on iPad is perfectly fine for the type of
| screwing around you can do on an OP1, it's much more
| powerful overall, and it even supports stuff like MIDI
| inputs and MIDI clock master.
| crtasm wrote:
| The OP1 has midi input over USB.
| grimoald wrote:
| You are of course free to have fun with the OP-1, but I
| found it to block my creativity when I constantly have to
| work around the omnipresent petty limitations like 4
| tracks, 1 effect per voice, almost useless sequencers
| etc.
| xdfgh1112 wrote:
| I agree and enjoyed the OP-Z more for that reason. They
| are supposed to be limited but that doesn't work for
| everyone.
| ilyt wrote:
| > Portable all in one groovebox with a keyboard.
|
| MASCHINE+, MPC X, Force, dozen other 440 style
| grooveboxes. Arguably Dirtywave M8
|
| I mean it is neat device and I'm kinda surprised nobody
| cloned the minimalistic format (I guess Volcas are kind
| of that, although more "one thing" rather than
| versatility, but the asking price is truly ridiculous
| xdfgh1112 wrote:
| None of those have a keyboard.
| spamizbad wrote:
| Unfortunately, All low volume boutique electronic musical
| instruments have "insanely high margins". The less boutique
| normal stuff made by Yamaha and Roland is likely priced at 4x
| the BOM - and they are able to get better deals from
| distributors than TE can.
|
| You can't sustain a business any other way. Consumer
| electronics are cheap because they can sell millions
| worldwide. Stuff like the OP1 sells in the 10s of thousands
| so they're not getting any special deals from their vendors
| either.
| [deleted]
| smoldesu wrote:
| It's worth drawing a line between handmade instruments and
| mass-produced machines though. Yes, Roland and Yamaha also
| have high margins, but they also face _steep_ competition
| from low-margin companies like Behringer who are
| effectively wrecking their business model. Companies like
| Moog were safe because their demand will always be the
| same, but boutique vendors everywhere are closing up shop.
|
| I'll agree that it's a zero-sum game either way, but it
| ends with the high-margin vendors getting undercut.
| Something we could have avoided if they worked to make
| their product cheaper instead of working to make it more
| expensive.
| strawpeople wrote:
| [dead]
| ilyt wrote:
| If you compare them with other competitors in the space the
| likes of Elektron or Polyend give you more hardware for
| less. They make Elektron look outright cheap in comparison
| in fact.
|
| > Stuff like the OP1 sells in the 10s of thousands so
| they're not getting any special deals from their vendors
| either.
|
| 10s of thousands is enough to get the economies of scale to
| start working. Even for stuff like custom LCDs for pocket
| operators.
|
| Yes niche costs few times to make than truly mass market as
| you still need to pay yourself a salary and not just "earn
| good profit on unit", but on the other side the only reason
| OP-1 _is_ niche it is because say OP-1 is just that
| expensive that most people look at it and go "okay, I
| could get this and this and that and still have some money
| left over". They know hipsters will buy it and have no real
| reason to try to sell more units for less money, as that
| devalues the eliteness of it.
| [deleted]
| ancientworldnow wrote:
| All of that is just the current photography fad. Sinna Nisseri
| is the poster boy of the look at the moment though he gets
| better performances out of his subjects.
| psychomugs wrote:
| The bad-flash point-and-shoot aesthetic is in now. NY street
| photographers championing the Bruce Gilden-esque technique are
| growing into their own in publications like NYT and defining
| the wave.
| fogforthought93 wrote:
| This style is ubiquitous--Terry Richardson, etc.
| meindnoch wrote:
| Let's hope this guy didn't get the rest of the Terry
| Richardson experience!
| schrijver wrote:
| And has been for two decades now... remarkably long lived.
|
| I think Richardson has a very similar technique, although he
| tends to shoot with white backgrounds. These specific
| pictures seem closer still to the photography in magazines
| like Apartamento, or in this case https://record-
| magazine.com/issues
|
| I always wonder when this retro frontal flash approach will
| go out of style. It's handy while it lasts, because it's very
| easy to make interior shots this way. No need to bother with
| lighting setups, just a single big flash mounted with your
| camera. Quite the accessible style! Yet it does help to
| differentiate from phone cameras, which seems to be a driving
| force for photographic trends... Just like shallow depth of
| field has been fashionable for a while (and might go out of
| fashion now phones can fake it), big flashes are not
| typically found on phones.
|
| The style also works, I think, because it channels event
| photography rather than art photography, which gives it its
| immediacy and nonchalance. It's very similar to the look of
| photojournalism in the eighties when certain press
| photographers started working with colour films to document
| openings etc., they used the big Metz flashes on a bracket
| and the diffusers were less sophisticated so you get this
| very direct, often blown out light. And amateur photographs
| of parties at the time were much the same (albeit with
| smaller flashes).
|
| So stylized (because retro) yet nonchalant. And it's really
| easy to do, just have your flash fire a bit harder than it
| suggests on it own :)
| suction wrote:
| [dead]
| malthaus wrote:
| I too would live in a pinterest-ready castle filled with toys but
| i dont have the stomach to rip off customers as shamelessly as TE
| is. The B&O of our generation.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| I dunno, I have always believed that something is worth exactly
| what someone else will pay for it.
|
| Value has no objective correlate: it is a construct agreed upon
| by the seller and buyer.
|
| "Overpriced," "rip-off," and their ilk seem to me ad hominem
| attacks by people who don't meet at "sold."
| ilyt wrote:
| Well, it is overpriced rip-off if you target consumers that
| don't know any better and could get better for less.
|
| But their customers know exactly what they are getting so it
| is not that.
| playingalong wrote:
| On one hand...
|
| On the other you have marketing which without changing the
| item/product itself might change its (perceived) value.
| ryanSrich wrote:
| I agree something being overpriced doesn't exist. However,
| rip off or scam is different. That's intentionally selling
| one thing as something else. Mostly in the form of not
| holding up some end of a bargain.
| duxup wrote:
| Most people comparing products have a good understanding of
| what they mean by "value".
|
| Isn't what you're describing more of a "market price" or
| something like that?
| ajmurmann wrote:
| If the value is lower than the market price, how does the
| company continue existing? Unless there was a monopoly or
| some other kind of market failure wouldn't people just
| avoid the products of TE?
| odiroot wrote:
| It would be half bad if it wasn't for "synthfluencers" who
| peddle TE's stuff. The company would probably have been long
| gone under.
| lykahb wrote:
| Luxury products cannot always be called a rip-off. They just
| target a certain audience with different values and less
| sensitivity to price. Also, the people who create music would
| be more enthusiastic about the equipment than people who buy
| purely consumer electronics. So, I'd expect they'd know the
| options and simply prefer the deal Teenage Engineering offers.
|
| In the modern audio landscape I'd rather pick Sonos as an
| example of a rip-off. High price, closed ecosystem, and data
| collection through the cloud services.
| sesm wrote:
| I don't think it's a rip-off. TE is working in 'expensive toy
| for rich hobbyists' market, not in 'professional music
| equipment' market.
| goldenchrome wrote:
| It's a luxury product! I'm guessing you just don't enjoy luxury
| products. I don't either, but then at least I can identify
| them. Some people like luxury.
| ryanSrich wrote:
| Right. It's like complaining that a Rolex is $15k because you
| can buy a just-as-good mechanical Seiko for $75.
| fogforthought93 wrote:
| [flagged]
| tomashubelbauer wrote:
| I am not saying I wouldn't love to be able to buy an OP-1 or an
| OP-1 Field for a lower price, I would absolutely love that. But
| no-one held a gun to my head and made me buy one for a retail
| price. It is a luxury synth, not a basic good like bread or
| water people's lives depends on. Everyone who buys a thing from
| TE and feels like they were ripped off should realize they
| volunteered to get ripped off.
| SideQuark wrote:
| > i dont have the stomach to rip off customers as shamelessly
| as TE is
|
| Yet people buy their products in large quantities, for well
| over a decade... They are used by top tier artists and consumer
| alike, and are used on many hit songs.
|
| If you think they're so overpriced, there should be a massive
| opportunity to undercut them and sell such quality for less.
| But no one has... Again, for well over a decade...
|
| Maybe they understand products better than people that don't
| make products.
| mattigames wrote:
| The candles that "smell like my vagina" for $75 by Goop
| company owned by Gwyneth Paltrow also sold out at launch,
| doesn't mean that that there's an opportunity to undercut
| them with better and cheaper crotch candles, not in the
| slightest; to put it succinctly there is a huge amount of
| people that make irrational purchases and there is no need to
| pretend otherwise.
| SideQuark wrote:
| Your definition of irrational is not everyone's. I suspect
| you buy things other people would consider irrational, yet
| you buy anyways. Does that make you irrational? Or do
| different people have different utility functions?
|
| People buy what they want, not what you think they should.
| conradfr wrote:
| Where is Behringer when you need it?
| ilyt wrote:
| They clone things people did actual known music on and not
| devices being known for being expensive toy.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Yep. Ostensibly there's nothing wrong with making pricy hipster
| audio equipment, but the rampant success of their marketing
| just makes me facepalm. People out there genuinely think the
| OP-1 is a $1000 product in 2023, which should inspire riots in
| the street. The OP-1 Field _raising_ the price instead of
| lowering it is the last nail in the coffin for me. $800 is a
| pricy toy - $1500+ puts you in brand-new Octatrack territory.
| Hell, that puts you in brand-new-Macbook-and-DAW territory.
|
| But, people pay for it. They want the whittled down, inspiring
| experience without any of the effort or trouble. I sympathize
| with those people, but Teenage Engineering's products are like
| the Disney Star Wars hotel of audio equipment. It's a one-of-a-
| kind, pretty-looking, dumbed-down, expensive scam. Some people
| will defend it, and particularly affluent guests might even say
| it's worth the money. Undeniably though, much like every Disney
| park, TE's product line is built to fleece the customer.
|
| I've got half a mind to chew Moog out for the same thing, but
| they have legitimate excuses for why their instruments can't be
| mass-produced. Teenage Engineering doesn't.
| kubb wrote:
| shouldn't there be a normally priced equivalent product on
| the market? it's not like we're talking about cutting edge
| silicon here
| smoldesu wrote:
| There are. Much like the Disney analogy, there are other
| cheaper theme parks on the market. The OP-1 is "unique"
| though, in the sense that (thankfully) nobody else is
| making a 4-track digital tape recorder anymore. There are
| hundreds of products _like_ it, but much like the Star Wars
| hotel, nobody is dumb /rich enough to build a replica of
| Disney's attraction.
|
| I could name a dozen grooveboxes that can be had for under
| $300 today, but it's all sorta besides the point. People
| want the OP-1 because it's what they see on YouTube, not
| because it makes music. Considering how long the product
| has stagnated, I see no reason that it should cost as much
| as it does today.
| bondarchuk wrote:
| What are the options with similar portability, sampling,
| synthesis, fx, and multitrack recording, that you can buy
| new, and is not just an ipad or something, for under 300
| dollars?
| smoldesu wrote:
| You've sorta missed my analogy. You can get a Novation
| Circuit, Electribe or even a brand-new Model: Samples for
| less than $300, but none of them are the "Star Wars
| Hotel" that the OP-1 is. I could show you a product that
| is exactly the same and cost's half as much, but people
| will balk at it complaining that it doesn't have a cow
| animation like the OP-1 does.
|
| They've "productized" an instrument that shouldn't cost
| more than $200 to manufacture at their scale. I'm mostly
| mad at how consistently stupid their target audience is,
| not the fact that they exist.
| zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
| It's not $300, but the SP404 MK2 is sweet
| vitaflo wrote:
| Agreed, and the MPC One is an amazing value for all it
| can do.
| zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
| I really want a Pioneer Toraiz SP-16 but can't justify it
| to myself because I really don't need it
| sussmannbaka wrote:
| I am also interested in the $300-500 all-in-one groovebox
| rivaling the OP-1 (without cow animation)
| selykg wrote:
| Same, show me what's out there.
| smoldesu wrote:
| - Elektron Model: Samples
|
| - Novation Circuit
|
| - Roland MC-101
|
| - Korg Electribe
|
| - Used Digitakt
|
| - (God forbid) Teenage Engineering OP-Z
|
| The list goes on but those are the big names. Again, I'm
| mostly fascinated that such a nothingburger company like
| TE can capture the hearts of rich people everywhere.
| Maybe it just goes to show that the most successful
| businesses aren't the ones with the best products, but
| with the most effective marketing and highest sex appeal.
| prmoustache wrote:
| I am not an OP-1 user nor am I a TE fanboy but I owned a
| Model:Samples and the simple fact that you cannot even
| sample on it and it doesn't have any synth capabilities
| cannot make it a candidate. The digitakt is not a synth
| either. Same with original Novation circuit and with
| Novation you'd have to buy both the circuit track and the
| circuit rhythm if my memory is correct to be able to both
| record/sample and use a synth. MC-101 seems completely
| different in term of ergonomics.
|
| I wouldn't say any of them would be an alternative.
|
| I think OP-1 is overpriced because there is nothing like
| it. I mean a secondhand laptop with a 69$ daw such as
| Reaper can do more, an MPC is more complete. But people
| who see the appeal of the OP-1 probably already have a
| computer and a DAW so this is not what they are looking
| for. They want a toy to make music.
|
| I am not in the market for such a thing but I guess it is
| not that overpriced if some people are willing to buy it
| at this price.
| psychomugs wrote:
| >the most successful businesses aren't the ones with the
| best products, but with the most effective marketing and
| highest sex appeal.
|
| This goes without saying.
|
| Also, having owned/used over half of those on the list,
| none of them emulate the tape functionality, which is
| arguably the OP-1's killer feature in the same way that
| the sequencer is the OP-Z's.
| sowbug wrote:
| https://dirtywave.com/
|
| Close enough.
| MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
| That's a $600 product. Perhaps less expensive but not
| not-expensive. And it lacks knobs and piano keys.
| ilyt wrote:
| The new OP-1 is 2000 euro. So $600 is less than half
|
| > And it lacks knobs and piano keys
|
| Well you can get like a dozen of various sized synths for
| that price but you'd then complain it has too many knobs
| and keys
| smoldesu wrote:
| No cow animation, either... completely unusable.
| prmoustache wrote:
| But it is successful because it is totally not an OP-1.
| bondarchuk wrote:
| > _I could show you a product that is exactly the same
| and cost 's half as much_
|
| Show it, then. (and btw "half as much" is significantly
| more than "under 300 dollars")
|
| > _but people will balk at it complaining that it doesn
| 't have a cow animation like the OP-1 does._
|
| Probably I will complain that it lacks synthesis, a
| multitrack recorder capable of making long tracks, an
| input for sampling, or something. (I agree the animations
| in TE stuff are silly though).
| smoldesu wrote:
| The OP-1's synthesis engine is so stiff that I'd argue it
| doesn't have one either. It's subtractive synth may as
| well be sample-based, the FM model is fine but
| _incredibly_ simple, the Karpluss-Strong engine is fun
| but one-note and the sampler doesn 't really fill in the
| rest of the cracks. It's a fine machine, but arguing that
| it's both a synth and a multitrack recorder ignores the
| fact that both of those features are _pretty_
| compromised.
|
| I posted some examples of cheap, shitty grooveboxes I
| would prefer to the OP-1 in another comment below.
| Understandably not all of them will be to everyone's
| liking, but all of them are cheaper than the OP-1 and
| easier for me to recommend to learning musicians.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| _> and is not just an ipad or something_
|
| That's the rub. I have no interest in the TE stuff (or,
| for that matter, most other manufacturer's stuff), but
| what we can do on our hosts, these days, is _amazing_.
|
| I remember using a Tascam recorder for our sessions,
| where you keep remixing tracks, until the hiss becomes
| your "signature sound."
|
| Nowadays, you can have a 24-track, digital system on your
| handheld, for peanuts.
| schrijver wrote:
| Right, these products don't work for me because their
| interfaces reproduce what was bad about 1980ies
| technology: small screens, shift buttons to enable
| multiple functions, lots of conventions you have to learn
| by heart. DAW's are so much easier to use! That's not to
| say I don't like physical hardware--it makes so much
| sense for analog synths, mixing desks, guitar pedals etc.
| or whatever instrument where you have a nice chunky
| button for each function.
| avip wrote:
| It's not normally called "scam" when you just take a simple
| product, wrap it with lots of marketing and branding, and
| overprice it.
|
| Or maybe it is, in which case the entire modern economy is a
| scam. Ok I see where this thread is going from here.
| criddell wrote:
| What you call fleecing the customer, I call charging the
| market rate.
|
| If your employer offered you a raise, would you turn it down
| because you don't want to fleece the customer?
| xdfgh1112 wrote:
| Most people are happy with it even though it's overpriced.
| Suggesting it's a scam insults peoples' intelligence.
|
| The same applies to the Star Wars hotel. It's not for you,
| nobody is holding a gun to your head making you stay there.
| For the people paying, it's worth it to them.
| prpl wrote:
| A nice guitar costs just as much, despite being functionally
| equivalent to one 1/3 its price.
|
| There's not a ton of rationality in music gear, people like
| what they like.
| ilyt wrote:
| Why you are comparing guitar to a synth ?
|
| Nice guitar (aside brand tax) has _actual cost to make it_
| , plastic toy like OP-1 is very cheap in comparison.
|
| Hell, it's probably cheaper to make than random ass $500
| behringer synth, even at unit count
| Supernaut wrote:
| With respect, that comparison fails, because a $1,500
| guitar will be noticeably more playable and have a
| substantially better sound than a $500 guitar. (Source:
| have played guitar for 35 years.)
|
| The point people are making here is that everything the
| OP-1 does can be achieved or surpassed with a couple of $10
| apps and a low-end general purpose computing device.
| jxf wrote:
| > But, people pay for it. They want the whittled down,
| inspiring experience without any of the effort or trouble.
|
| I don't know if this is the right analogy. Some people want
| to pay for features _not_ to be included in stuff because
| they enjoy the simplicity.
|
| There are phones that don't have a browser or let you
| download apps, for example. That's not a "scam", that's just
| marketing to people who want simplicity.
| [deleted]
| psychomugs wrote:
| Leica charges hundreds _more_ for monochrome-only and
| screenless models of their cameras. The fact that there
| have been several generations of their suggests it 's
| working and helps keep them afloat.
| krosaen wrote:
| Reminds me about my neighbor who designed and then sold a batch
| of portable modular synths:
|
| https://www.modernsounds.co/pluto
|
| amazing work and so cool that that sort of thing is possible from
| a solopreneur these days.
| apgwoz wrote:
| I'm not knowledgeable about synths and such (I wish I had more
| time to learn music, though), but I always look at this stuff
| because the devices are aesthetically beautiful -- pluto as
| well. It's probably almost a shoo-in that if you focused on
| aesthetics you could sell out a small batch of modular synths
| with the most basic beep / boop making capabilities.
| ilyt wrote:
| The market is quite saturated for those. You'd have to make
| something pretty and doing something more than basic.
| amrb wrote:
| I've wanted to get their OP-1 portable synth since the first time
| I saw it, that price tho..
|
| https://teenage.engineering/store/op-1/
| adwi wrote:
| Echoing sibling: waited years, found good used deal, told
| myself I'd just sell it for the same price if I didn't love it.
|
| Most inspiring instrument I've ever played. Reconnected me back
| to making music.
| exitb wrote:
| I bought mine 9 years ago and it costed 790 EUR. It was
| regarded as a capable, but possibly overpriced synth. It's
| quite shocking and disappointing to see that it's so much more
| expensive now.
| noman-land wrote:
| I waited, lusted, and saved for years, watching the price
| nearly double, before succumbing and getting one. I do not
| regret it.
| dddw wrote:
| Ask Monte Booker if you can lend one, he has two
| amrb wrote:
| reminds me of the meme "I Have Three PS3s" :)
| marban wrote:
| Recently sold my OP-1 to get the Field at some point but it's
| not really a convincing upgrade so far.
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| Would like to know when they'll start selling their pocket
| operator synthesizer and sequencer again. Rumors that a chip
| shortage has negatively impacted on their production, but who
| knows!
|
| It's been months now that they've been out of stock on their
| website - https://teenage.engineering/store/po-20/
| voakbasda wrote:
| Given their other marketing, they could simply be keeping it
| out of stock intentionally, to increase demand by creating a
| (false) sense of scarcity.
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| Yes, you get that sense alright when the $500 units all seem
| to be in stock no problem.
| selykg wrote:
| I mean, if my $500 product has better margins I'm going to
| take my limited supply of materials and put it into my best
| money makers.
| voakbasda wrote:
| Why is this so hard to believe? I truly don't understand the
| unvoiced objections to my hypothesis.
| ilyt wrote:
| Same over whole synth market, it's slowly clearing out
| barrenko wrote:
| Comments here are peak HN.
| notRobot wrote:
| _> With any kind of creative work you start disabling as much as
| possible and narrow it down only to the necessary tools you need,
| and from there start making the work. That's what I believe makes
| you super creative._
|
| This also (at least for me) is the joy of esoteric and weird
| programming languages!
| bikeformind wrote:
| Remember this thing? https://play.date/ (Gameboy with a crank)
| Made it to the front page on here a couple times, if I'm not
| mistaken.
|
| Did this ever ship? looks like it's been in pre-order for the
| last three years?
| michelb wrote:
| Had it for a few months now and it's a fun little thing.
| jasonpeacock wrote:
| I've got mine. It's exactly what was promised, and fun to play
| :)
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| They shipped the first batch but didn't secure enough
| processors so are having to re-engineer for a different
| chipset/platform last I heard.
| evan_ wrote:
| Yes it has shipped.
|
| It says pre-order because they're shipping in batches so if you
| order now you'll get it in a few months rather than right away.
| cfr2023 wrote:
| [flagged]
| fijiaarone wrote:
| What do you expect from a fifty something marketing executive
| from an ancient banking family who names his company "teenage
| engineering" -- something with shag carpet and wood paneling
| right out of the 1970s -- when he was a teenager.
| simonebrunozzi wrote:
| Didn't notice this detail in the interview - do you mean that
| he comes from a very wealthy family, and that was a factor in
| his founding of the company?
| [deleted]
| sambapa wrote:
| It seems to me that hardware synths are like vinyls - people buy
| them because of connotations, a certain image. In almost all
| terms software is unquestionably better. And if you want to be a
| "quirky artsy synthesizer person", don't buy into this hardware
| shit, just download SunVox or Pure Data.
| kzrdude wrote:
| scandinavianmind.com is not responding very quickly, but it is
| responding.
|
| Here's an archived copy: https://archive.is/x2oxd
| [deleted]
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