[HN Gopher] Fulcrum: an ergo-mechanical split keyboard with extr...
___________________________________________________________________
Fulcrum: an ergo-mechanical split keyboard with extra thumb
functionality
Author : zdw
Score : 92 points
Date : 2023-02-04 18:18 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| crispyambulance wrote:
| Finally, a keyboard for those of us who have extra thumbs! I've
| long wanted to put my extra thumbs to work.
| eecc wrote:
| Won't you get RSI to your thumbs with this keyboard? How's it
| better compared to a stenography keyboard?
| tianh wrote:
| Looks interesting, I already use a non-standard keyboard (Ducky 2
| mini), which I really enjoy. It also uses another layer to access
| F-keys and arrow-keys for example.
|
| The only downside I experience is when programs do not allow re-
| mapping of keys and use arrow-keys. Happens often with browser
| games, which is really annoying. There sure is a way to get
| around this since Ducky 2 mini is really flexible, but I'm
| usually not so much invested to go down that path.
| vl wrote:
| Very cool project! I'm a big fan of vertical key rows and split
| design.
|
| So much so that I pulled the trigger and ordered new Kinesis
| Advantage 360 Pro - currently I'm a happy user of Advantage2.
| [deleted]
| yewenjie wrote:
| I like the idea for common words to be on a macro layer. I wonder
| if there is some simple way to generate one's personalized top 20
| words or something.
| alanbernstein wrote:
| Like a compromise between an ergo board and a data hand.
|
| The motivation for this sounds convincing. My problem is that I'm
| not willing or able to put the time into learning a new layout,
| with or without a chording aspect.
| [deleted]
| angry_moose wrote:
| I tried it to a lesser extent (Keyboardio 100) and stuck with
| it just long enough to determine it would be great if I never
| used any other computers with a standard keyboard. After 2
| weeks I could barely even type on my laptop anymore - I just
| couldn't hold both layouts in my head. Numbers, punctuation,
| and special keys were completely different; even though letters
| were "the same" they moved enough I was making a ton of typos.
|
| I came to the conclusion I wasn't willing to buy an additional
| keyboard for my work computer and give up my laptop so I ended
| up selling it.
| Firmwarrior wrote:
| I think this is a super cool keyboard, but if I were going to
| learn a chorded keyboard, I'd probably go all in on the type
| steganographers use to type 300 WPM
| dschil138 wrote:
| I don't really think it's fair to call it a chorded keyboard.
| It does have chords, but they are mostly optional and there
| for convenience.
|
| Every alpha letter has it's own key. Some are on a second
| layer, but that layer is also "one-shot" so you don't even
| need to chord to use it, like you do with typing capital
| letters with shift, for instance.
| capableweb wrote:
| You could always use a "normal" (QWERTY) keyboard for steno
| if you'd like, some people had success with Plover
| (http://www.openstenoproject.org/) for doing this. You can
| even try it in the browser:
| http://www.openstenoproject.org/demo/
|
| What would be really interesting would be a keyboard
| specifically for programming. Chords that can be customized
| to fit your language, would make a lot of sense. Integrate
| some ideas from things like Paraedit et al, and you could
| probably get up to crazy speeds in editing and writing really
| quickly.
| xiande04 wrote:
| A keyboard with two thumb joysticks is something I've been
| dreaming about for a long time! If I could upvote this a thousand
| times I would.
| rwilson4 wrote:
| I have a Kinesis Advantage 2 and the thumb clusters are my
| favorite part. I think I probably spend too much time optimizing
| the layout of those keys though. Like, Escape is really awkwardly
| placed in the default layout so I moved it to the right thumb
| cluster, but I was actually just thinking about moving it to the
| left cluster. Talk about micro-optimizations!
| Sakos wrote:
| I love the idea. Reminds me that I've always wondered why nobody
| ever made a keyboard with analog joysticks for your thumbs. Feels
| like keyboard design has stagnated because they reached a local
| maxima for being good enough decades ago.
| moffkalast wrote:
| That's not the reason at all, the typical modern keyboard is
| just about exclusively driven by legacy compatibility. The keys
| are still in the exact same layout that was dictated by the
| mechanical design of typewriters centuries ago for fucks sake.
| Does anything still use the "pause" button? Why would anyone
| ever want to lock the numpad? Why are like half of the keys
| duplicated? These are real questions we should be asking.
|
| The real problem is that people have gotten used to something
| that barely worked, who then got catered to by manufacturers
| which lead to new people learning that same layout,
| perpetuating the same design into infinity because nobody wants
| to relearn typing. Driving cars with a wheel and pedals
| probably isn't optimal either, but it's all anyone ever learns
| to use so that's what ubiquitous. Language is the same.
| dschil138 wrote:
| that's why it's so absolutely nuts that smartphone keyboards
| are just touchscreen versions of legacy keyboards.
|
| If there is any place absolutely ripe for new innovation and
| optimizations, it's there. But there are hardly any
| significantly-different options! (at least on iphone, can't
| speak to Android)
|
| Like, why can't I set my keyboard to delete the last word
| when I swipe left across the keyboard? There are a million
| low-hanging fruit things like that.
| c54 wrote:
| Interest concept. Are there any videos of someone using one ? I
| couldn't find any on youtube
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Hyper optimized HIDs are a fascinating curiosity to me. I feel
| like a lot of the time they're meant to fulfill a daydream of
| optimization that oftentimes never gets realized.
|
| It's like stenography, the cost of deviating from the norm is
| high but very valuable for specific use cases.
|
| Or maybe I'm just projecting my Jr. Engineer days where I spent
| silly amounts of time optimizing my text editor with dreams of it
| making me one with my computer.
| dschil138 wrote:
| I totally agree with you in theory but for this specific board,
| can tell you that it improved my typing speed ~10wpm, and
| completely eliminated my RSI issues.
|
| When I say I had major RSI issues, I mean I once had to spend 6
| weeks typing with only my left hand bc the right hurt so bad.
| So it was worth it just for getting rid of that.
|
| But in general I totally agree with you. I think about that a
| lot when optimizing like VSCode settings, for example. Like
| "this isn't really productive work here. it just feels like
| it."
| jjeaff wrote:
| Ya this is exactly the kind of bike shedding I get wrapped up
| in sometimes. Lately I have been creating custom shelving and
| storage in my office for a clean look and better optimization
| for lighting, camera, and sound.
|
| I realize I could be working on real work when I do this, but I
| enjoy it and I find it to be a needed break from real work as
| well as actually engender a bit more excitement in myself to
| get back to work.
|
| Its nice to enjoy optimizations that you have worked on and
| implemented yourself.
| keybored wrote:
| On the one hand, yes... no, in fact three things:
|
| 1. On the one hand, yes. It can be very idealistic. You might
| imagine that you will achieve a new level of productivity where
| you will look down on your previous level and think: "How did I
| ever get anything done down there?"
|
| 2. Computer input optimization often gets derided with some
| variation on the "my typing speed is not the bottleneck when
| writing code". But first of all, productivity in the immediate
| sense might not be the point: the point might be ergonomics and
| health. And it sounds silly to get health issues by just
| sitting and typing stuff and yet... well, it does happen a lot,
| apparently.[1]
|
| I have done some optimizations with regards to my keyboard but
| the holy grail for me (I feel like) is stenography (which you
| mentioned). But I fear that I'm not the kind of person that
| could devote something like on average 30 minutes a day for
| multiple months to that.
|
| 3. Things like optimizing my setup is what makes me excited. So
| if I can keep my idealism in check then the journey itself will
| have been worth the effort.
|
| [1] You're screwed either way: if you're in a physical
| profession (a "trade") you wear your body out. If you are in an
| office job you either don't use your body enough, get some kind
| of ergonomic problem, or get burnout from being too much in
| your head.
| mosquitobiten wrote:
| > fulfill a daydream of optimization that oftentimes never gets
| realized
|
| with so many things, creating something like this maybe you
| start like that but end up realizing you just wanted to express
| yourself. challenging the norm is a given and popularity is
| just a plus.
| [deleted]
| whitemary wrote:
| Why would I invest the time, effort, and incalculable risk
| involved in adopting and depending on a boutique experimental
| keyboard system?
|
| Why do all keyboard projects either mindlessly adhere to antique
| conventions or hopelessly diverge into zaniness? Why is it so
| difficult to find a multi-platform split keyboard with no
| gimmicks, standard layouts, and sane defaults. I will buy a back-
| stock of 10 when I find it. The closest thing so far is the
| Mistel MD770 so I own 2 of them.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| > Why do all keyboard projects either mindlessly adhere to
| antique conventions or hopelessly diverge into zaniness? Why is
| it so difficult to find a multi-platform split keyboard with no
| gimmicks, standard layouts, and sane defaults. I will buy a
| back-stock of 10 when I find it. The closest thing so far is
| the Mistel MD770 so I own 2 of them.
|
| Try finding what you are looking for but with an ISO layout.
| Which is why I am thinking about buying a second Mistel MD770.
| goosedragons wrote:
| There's loads of those? Kinesis Freestyle, Matias Ergo Pro,
| Mistel Barocco, Cloud Nine ErgoFS. You could also build one.
|
| A split keyboard only addresses one or two problems. The US
| QWERTY layout is objectively awful and there's loads of room
| for improvement. Even adding a single modifier key instead of
| the massively useless space bar is a huge improvement but
| people are married to the idea we must alternate thumbs to
| space because 60 years ago it actually took effort to do.
| whitemary wrote:
| Kenesis Freestyle (tested) - NOT multi-platform, "Mac"
| version has no function key
|
| Matias Ergo Pro (not tested) - NOT multi-platform, A lot of
| non-standard key placement and spacing
|
| Mistel (tested) - Like I said, this is the best option
|
| Cloud Nine (tested) - NOT multi-platform, ridiculous
| footprint will hardly even fit on my desk WITHOUT a mouse,
| countless unnecessary features, I do have a friend who loves
| this keyboard but even they agree that they should have
| better options
| goosedragons wrote:
| Matias Ergo Pro absolutely is cross platform. There's a DIP
| switch under right CMD or alt and you can swap between
| Mac/PC. I've done this. I'm not even sure how beneficial
| "cross platform" is when you can just swap modifier
| controls on the Mac (the problem platform) anyways?
|
| Did you try the Kinesis Freestyle PRO? They advertise
| advertise Mac and Windows support while the NON-pro is
| Windows or Mac.
|
| The function key isn't a real key either. It's a key to do
| something on the keyboard itself. Plenty of Mac keyboards
| made by Apple even don't have one.
|
| Considering the "non-standard" key placements on these
| keybaords are about as big of a change as the average
| laptop and the Cloud Nine literally has a standard PC
| layout so I think you're just really picky. Maybe just
| build one?
| seltzered_ wrote:
| Ive been thinking about this quite a bit along with portability
| in mind. Its led me to sketch out this idea involving smaller
| 0.75u keys inspired by Atreus:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/x6mbjh/s...
| - while the layout is a bit more ortholinear in theory one
| shouldn't have to deal with layering. The bigger tradeoff is
| its handmade due to the modified keycaps.
|
| Plan to someday make it and share a setup on
| https://reddit.com/r/ergomobilecomputers
| dharmab wrote:
| I had to learn an ergonomic keyboard after a severe injury. It
| took one week to catch up to my QWERTY ability and two weeks to
| surpass it.
| morjom wrote:
| Are moonlander and ergodox too zany or too out of the default?
| I used a MD600 for a while, and found that keyboards that are
| just qwerties chopped in half diagonally in the middle-ish
| aren't really taking advantage of the splitness enough, so
| ergodox or a dactyl seemed better for me.
| whitemary wrote:
| In my experience, splitting the keyboard in half delivers
| 95+% of the ergonomic benefits with virtually zero tradeoffs
| beyond the couple of days it take to adjust to it.
|
| Could you elaborate on the benefits in taking more "advantage
| of the splitness"? Maybe I'm overlooking a big missed
| opportunity.
|
| For me, I at least need to transition from my laptop
| keyboards (linux/mac) to my split keyboards without
| distracting from the work at hand. More generally, I think
| professionals should never stray too far from industry
| standard tools.
|
| My main issue with ergodox is consumer lock-in. Dependence on
| custom keybindings is one thing, but dependence on custom
| physical keys is bad practice outside of special
| circumstances.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| > More generally, I think professionals should never stray
| too far from industry standard tools.
|
| I have used a Moonlander for close to two years now. Other
| than the few days at the beginning before muscle memory
| developed, I have had no issues going from a Moonlander, to
| a standard mechanical, to laptop keyboards. It's not nearly
| as big of a problem as you're making it seem, coming from
| my own experience.
|
| And why can't someone choose to use a tool that helps them?
| What's so wrong with that?
|
| > My main issue with ergodox is consumer lock-in.
| Dependence on custom keybindings is one thing, but
| dependence on custom physical keys is bad practice outside
| of special circumstances.
|
| What even is this argument? Oryx is just a layer on top of
| QMK, an open source keyboard firmware. The keys are all
| standard row 3 keycaps, with the exception of the thumb
| cluster which are 1.5u and 2u keycaps. Sure, the thumb
| cluster is unique, but that can be said for dozens of
| different keyboards: A lot have macro keys, or twists and
| knobs to control things like volume. Arrow key designs are
| different from manufacturer to manufacturer. Hell, the
| _entire layout_ is different based on which country you 're
| in. Having a thumb cluster seems like an _extremely_ minor
| lock-in considering muscle memory isn 't limited to one
| layout at a time.
| pletnes wrote:
| My moonlander took a few days/weeks of getting used to, but
| it's not very <<far out>> in my mind. The biggest hurdle is
| getting used to the ortholinear keys, but this quickly feels
| much better. Would warmly recommend to anyone spending much
| time in front of a keyboard, really.
| birken wrote:
| I got a Moonlander about 3 months ago, and it took me about
| a month of getting used to the key layout until I was
| typing at similar speed to a Macbook keyboard (which for me
| is fairly fast, about 120wpm). The hardest letters for me
| was shifting from my index finger to my ring finger for
| 'c', and shifting '.' from my other index finger to my
| other ring finger. I basically got used to never typing a
| key with my ring finger below the home row and with the
| ortholinear keys it was just no longer possible to type
| quickly while having my index finger handle everything. The
| keys also poke out quite a bit more than other keyboards so
| when you stretch to type a key with the "wrong" finger you
| are also much more likely to accidentally press another
| key.
|
| Getting used to spacebar, backspace and enter, all of which
| I shifted to thumb mappings, took only a few days. You hit
| those keys so often you learn the muscle memory very
| quickly. This to me is by far the best part of the
| moonlander, having 4 super-accessible thumb keys and 2
| semi-accessible thumb keys that I can program is a massive,
| massive improvement over a standard keyboard. Your thumb is
| completely wasted in a normal layout.
|
| I still am far below my "normal" speed for programming, but
| that is because I'm trying to figure out the best custom
| mapping for (){}[]<>=+ and then train the muscle memory.
|
| Overall I'm very happy with the purchase, I feel like it is
| much more ergonomic and with another few months of service
| and perfecting my layout it will hopefully end up being
| much faster and more convenient than a normal keyboard
| layout as well.
| zwayhowder wrote:
| The biggest hurdle is wondering why your space bar is no
| longer working on a normal keyboard, and realising that you
| are actually smashing the alt key :D
|
| But seriously, I love my Moonlander(s) and have no regrets
| buying them.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| > The biggest hurdle is wondering why your space bar is
| no longer working on a normal keyboard, and realising
| that you are actually smashing the alt key :D
|
| This hasn't really been an issue for me after the first
| week or two of use. My muscle memory adjusts based on
| which keyboard I'm using. Typing this on my MBP's laptop
| keyboard while I work using my Moonlander day-to-day.
|
| > But seriously, I love my Moonlander(s) and have no
| regrets buying them.
|
| Also got a second for the office because of how much I
| love it. Only _minor_ regrets because spending over 1k on
| two keyboards (after caps, etc) is a tough pill to
| swallow.
| zwayhowder wrote:
| It is, but then I broke a finger and was able to remap
| both keyboards to compensate. That was pure magic.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| Agreed, I make small tweaks occasionally to improve some
| behavior and it gives me a good feeling deep down to know
| I can change what any key does at its most basic level. I
| don't even use layers too much but most of my keys will
| have both a tap and tap-hold option and it's crazy to
| think that I can choose to change it at any time without
| any issue, and having it carry over between computers
| since it's all in the keyboard itself.
|
| I still haven't figured out a good combination for an
| Esc/backtick key since I use both keys pretty commonly
| and there just isn't space for both.
| cinntaile wrote:
| https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/
|
| What's wrong with this one? Pretty vanilla.
| whitemary wrote:
| I tried it and had to return it. It's not multi-platform and
| the mac version is horribly designed so you have to sacrifice
| media keys to have function keys.
| Groxx wrote:
| Open source software, all hardware listed, and built by hand.
|
| I think the risk is _extremely_ calculable. It 's laid out
| explicitly.
| djbusby wrote:
| Did you see Keyboard.io one? It's a big butterfly shape,
| ortholinear(is that what it's called?)
|
| Took a while to get used to, 20+ years of muscle memory for
| pinky work that is now thumb.
|
| And I don't get lost going back to standard/laptops.
| dschil138 wrote:
| Hey, I made this. It was only ever intended just for me, bc I
| have bad (really bad) RSI. I truly did not ever expect anyone
| else to want to make one. But I shared it on the ergomech
| reddit and people were interested so I put some work into the
| Github repo.
|
| That being said, after realizing some people were actually
| interested, I also added a more standard 40-key version, bc I
| know most people don't want to go all the way to 20 keys. There
| is a pic of that version farther down on the README page.
| whitemary wrote:
| I did not mean this as a criticism, but more as a cry for
| help! I have worsening RSI but a massively customized
| keyboard project would be so incompatible with my job
| requirements. I just wish so bad that there were a sane
| middle path.
| dschil138 wrote:
| I totally get you. I think that exists tho! Someone else
| mentioned the Keyboardio100 which might work well for you.
|
| But I would also argue that it's totally worth learning a
| new layout. I think people overestimate how hard it is, and
| the difficulty of switching between them. If you have RSI,
| I would _definitely_ recommend getting some type of split
| ergo board (maybe Corne?) and learning Colemak-DH layout.
| keybored wrote:
| Is it really that binary? It seems that there are plenty of
| custom keyboards that are very vanilla, like 60%.
|
| Personally I think custom keyboard people are a bit too in love
| with 60% and below + a dozen F-combinations (for arrow keys and
| so on).
| CarVac wrote:
| Layers have less "incalculable risk" when you design the layers
| yourself for your needs and according to your logic.
|
| Don't use layer setups other people designed verbatim; take
| inspiration from them.
|
| For example, my own ergo keyboard has no dedicated backspace
| button; instead I chose to have fn-M (a thumb function key) and
| it's actually better for me than reaching for a true backspace
| key.
|
| I would _never_ expect anyone else to be able to use my
| keyboard though.
| brekkiemax wrote:
| [flagged]
| snozolli wrote:
| _Why would I invest the time, effort, and incalculable risk_
|
| What incalculable risk?
|
| You're just learning new muscle memory. Particularly if you're
| just talking about different key alignments (grid vs
| traditional typewriter staggered style).
|
| If you're talking about learning a new layout, like going from
| QWERTY to Dvorak or Colemak, that's a much bigger commitment,
| but still not a risk or something you can't simply change your
| mind about.
|
| I've gone from QWERTY to Dvorak and back, and from traditional
| to Kinesys and back. It's like learning to drive a stick shift,
| you can always give up or switch back and forth.
| whitemary wrote:
| Consumer lock-in is a risk. For a professional practitioner,
| adopting dependence on custom hardware gadgets from boutique
| hobby ventures is a risk.
|
| Speaking for myself, I also depend on having a job where I
| have a boss. It's an authoritarian relationship. If my skills
| cannot be applied with required industry standard hardware,
| it's much harder for me to get/keep a job. For a professional
| employee, this counts as another risk.
|
| These risks are incalculable because the degree of dependence
| cannot be known until much later once all the quirks of the
| new system have been accounted for.
| doix wrote:
| > Consumer lock-in is an incalculable risk. For a
| professional practitioner, adopting dependence on custom
| hardware gadgets from boutique hobby ventures is an
| incalculable risk.
|
| It's literally all open, you can build it yourself. If you
| really do develop a dependence on it, as long as you
| archive everything, you'll be able to get another one. You
| can't say the same about depending on a commercial
| keyboard.
|
| I am slightly worried about my moonlander breaking and then
| no-longer being manufactured in 5-10 years, but I know I
| can learn a new layout in a few days, so it's not a big
| issue.
|
| > Speaking for myself, I also depend on having a job where
| I have a boss. It's an authoritarian relationship. If my
| skills cannot be applied with required industry standard
| hardware, it's much harder for me to get/keep a job. For a
| professional employees, this is another incalculable risk.
|
| Where have you worked that mandated you use a standard
| keyboard? I've had the opposite, when I had bad wrist
| problems, my employer bought me a whole bunch of different
| ergonomic keyboards and mice to try (including foot pedals)
| until I found something comfortable.
| snozolli wrote:
| _Consumer lock-in is an incalculable risk. For a
| professional practitioner, adopting dependence on custom
| hardware gadgets from boutique hobby ventures is an
| incalculable risk._
|
| Just... Unplug the keyboard and go back to your old one!
|
| _If my skills cannot be applied with required industry
| standard hardware_
|
| The only time your boss cares what keyboard you're using is
| when you hand in a requisition form. Even then, they're
| likely to be happy to foot the bill to have a productive
| employee and potentially avoid a future disability claim.
|
| Again, you can just switch back to a regular keyboard. The
| human body is much smarter than you seem to think it is.
| whitemary wrote:
| The boss will care when you need a couple weeks to adapt
| your precious keyboard setup to the new company hardware,
| or when you can't work on the plane or at a coffee shop
| on work trips, or when you need to haul an armful of
| peripherals to the conference room for a standard
| meeting.
| snozolli wrote:
| _when you need a couple weeks to adapt your precious
| keyboard setup to the new company hardware_
|
| You mean plugging in a keyboard? Seriously, what are you
| even making up in your head here?
|
| _or when you can 't work on the plane or at a coffee
| shop on work trips_
|
| Your examples imply a laptop, which already has a built-
| in keyboard. Why would you haul your workstation keyboard
| into a meeting?
|
| Again, you can simply switch back. Learning a new
| keyboard configuration doesn't eliminate the old layout
| from your muscle memory. Even going back to QWERTY after
| learning Dvorak is pretty seamless.
|
| To give a similar example, do you normally use a mouse?
| Do you take the mouse with you to the coffee shop,
| airplane, or meeting, or do you just use the trackpad
| while you're there? Same thing.
| jack_pp wrote:
| Haven't tried learning DVORAK to see how easy I can
| switch back but as a 12 year vim user, not having access
| to vim bindings feels like coding with handcuffs. Luckily
| all major IDEs come with decent vim bindings but I would
| be afraid to learn another layout because then I'd become
| dependent on it and I'm not so sure I'd be able to switch
| seamlessly without a painfully dreaded time window to
| adjust.
|
| Even if it takes a week to go back, previous comments
| were talking about being productive in a coffee shop or
| on a work trip which happen rarely. If you spend hundreds
| of hours with a custom keyboard / layout but then have to
| switch for 10 hours every couple of months I doubt you'll
| be feel at home during those 10 hours and I doubt you'll
| be productive.
| leipert wrote:
| Honestly, not that big of a deal, switching between
| layouts. At some point I switched between DE and US-
| International where basically all of the characters used
| for programming are in different places. I still can go
| back and forth between them.
|
| I know people who have tried a bunch of different
| layouts, and maybe the best comparison is "swimming
| styles". The people who tried like more than two, had no
| problem switching back and forth. If you are a
| professional swimmer, you will have no trouble switching
| between styles.
|
| For vim and Dvorak specifically there seem to be macros
| which map Dvorak to QWERTY under the hood if not in edit
| mode. So you can use muscle memory for that.
| [deleted]
| bee_rider wrote:
| The Kinesis Freestyle Pro is a pretty boring (in a good way)
| mechanical split keyboard. It has an (optional) tenting kit,
| which I guess could be seen as zany, but it really adds quite a
| bit of comfort.
| whitemary wrote:
| I tried it. It's not multi-platform and the so-called mac
| version has no function key so you must pick between media
| keys and function keys.
|
| It also takes up a lot of unnecessary desk space and has a
| lot of bonus keys nobody asked for, but I would have still
| used them (one for win and another for mac) if I could adjust
| volume on the mac version without a 3rd party hack.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Yah, I'd probably be happier with a version that lacked all
| the extra keys on the left and right as well as useless
| stuff like the function and media keys, but I just ignore
| them.
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