[HN Gopher] I Bought a CO2 Monitor, and It Broke Me
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I Bought a CO2 Monitor, and It Broke Me
Author : robomartin
Score : 45 points
Date : 2023-02-03 21:34 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theatlantic.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theatlantic.com)
| jandrese wrote:
| I wonder if his apartment has gas heat and when opening the
| window to air it out he was causing the furnace to kick on and
| pump out loads more CO2? That would also explain the spikes
| during the cold overnight hours.
| nanna wrote:
| Her apartment.
| bentley wrote:
| Does a furnace put out enough CO2 to worry about? The main
| concern is usually CO.
| kesslern wrote:
| A furnace shouldn't be adding CO2 or CO to your air. Those
| combustion products should all be exhausted out of the house.
| jandrese wrote:
| Maybe this is something to have the landlord check? In
| practice I don't think most gas furnaces are as well sealed
| as advertised. Many years ago when I lived in a house with
| gas heat with a dodgy pilot light I got a pretty good feel
| for how the thing was put together and it was absolutely
| not hermetically sealed.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| It's not supposed to be sealed, it's just supposed to
| have draft. (the flue always vacumming from convection)
| throw0101c wrote:
| > _It 's not supposed to be sealed, it's just supposed to
| have draft._
|
| It depends on the model. High (>90%) efficiency,
| condensing furnaces are completely sealed off from the
| house: they take in air from the outside (via PVC pipe),
| combust, extract the heat, and exhaust the results (via
| PVC pipes).
|
| * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBVvnDfW2Xo
|
| Older lower efficiency (<85-90%) furnaces suck in air
| from the house, exhaust into metal pipes (PVC would melt
| because not as much heat is extracted from the fumes),
| can be back-drafted and you have to worry about CO.
|
| Basically: if the furnace has vents in which you can see
| a pilot light, it's the older style.
| symlinkk wrote:
| AFAIK with gas furnaces the air touching the flame never
| touches the air that goes into the house, they run them past
| each other on top of a thin filter to exchange heat. So the CO2
| produced from the flame should not affect CO2 in the house,
| provided the system is not malfunctioning.
| strstr wrote:
| In 2020 I bought a Netatmo CO2 sensor, since it was cheaper than
| the alternatives. Not sure how accurate it was, but it seemed
| accurate enough (450-500 outside).
|
| Live in the PNW with only electric heating/stove/oven. Cracking
| the window very slightly was enough to keep CO2 relatively low
| (600-800). Had to crack the window more when the temp is around
| 70 outside, less when the temp delta is higher (cold or warm).
|
| Eventually ditched the device once I understood how to keep CO2
| low. The cloud integration was creepy. I could tell when my wife
| or I went to bed based on CO2 spiking near the sensor.
| 60secs wrote:
| If your co2 is high why not just some houseplants?
|
| Seems like a few snake plants would easily handle that level.
|
| https://balconygardenweb.com/most-effective-co2-absorbing-ho...
| etrautmann wrote:
| From that article you linked:
|
| "In a study at Naresuan University, Phitsanulok, Thailand, the
| snake plant can absorb CO2 at 0.49 ppm/m3 in the closed
| system."
|
| That would require an enormous number of snake plants to do
| anything. A tiny apartment is 50m^2 * 3m = 150 cubic meters, so
| it requires 300 snake plants just to bring down by 1ppm (though
| not sure over what timescale or other assumptions in the work
| cited)
| pmw wrote:
| Can anyone recommend a quality CO2 monitor for personal/home use?
| stuaxo wrote:
| The Aranet 4 is good, not cheap - but I got one eventually.
| post_break wrote:
| qingping makes one, I have it at home. You can track it on your
| phone and export the data as well. $140 on Amazon and it looks
| very nice on a desk.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| I have the Qingping Lite[1] which is a well-made device (and
| can run on batteries if you want to take it somewhere to
| check things out). After updating the firmware and
| calibrating it outside it seems pretty consistent - though I
| was mostly interested in it for CO2, I have a Flow 2 which
| doesn't agree on PM2.5 or PM10 with the Qingping, I suspect
| that the particulate sensor in the QP is not the best, it
| always seems to read low.
|
| 1: https://breathesafeair.com/qingping-air-monitor-lite-
| review/
| jck wrote:
| I got a xiaomi co2 monitor off AliExpress a while ago for about
| 60PS :https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005001768799038.html
|
| It works well enough and home assistant integrates with it. I
| cannot comment on it's accuracy since I've never owned another
| CO2 monitor as a reference. However, it is very responsive to
| the various things I've tried to manage CO2 in my bedroom -
| such as opening the windows to differet degrees, position of my
| curtains etc.
| dilippkumar wrote:
| I have an Airthings Wave. It does CO2 along with a couple of
| other things.
|
| I really like mine. It helped me discover that I was sensitive
| to volatile organic compounds: every time I felt the air was
| stuffy inside my apartment, it corresponded to a VOC peak that
| was happening right then.
|
| The one downside to the Airthings Wave is that it looks like
| hospital equipment. Grey, lifeless plastic pill design that was
| probably outdated even in the 1970s.
|
| If you ignore how it looks, it works fantastic.
| cypherpunks01 wrote:
| I'd second the Airthings device, they have pretty high
| quality sensors and include VOCs, CO2, pm2.5, radon, and a
| few others. A little bit pricey is the only downside for me.
| xnx wrote:
| Love my Airthings Wave. It works exactly as advertised and is
| very easy to export all the readings as CSV.
| muxamilian wrote:
| Have been using Netatmo for 4 years and can't complain.
| dumpsterlid wrote:
| [dead]
| ladberg wrote:
| I have a similar monitor and if I _never_ open a window for days
| it can get up to 2000 but I feel like I can keep it at ~600 just
| by always leaving a window slightly cracked open (not enough to
| noticeably cool the apartment).
|
| Using the stove or oven will definitely spike it though to scary
| levels! I've made a habit of keeping the windows fully open when
| I cook now.
| spoils19 wrote:
| This is definitely one of those situations where I find it's
| better to trust your gut. That's where the truth lies, right down
| here in the gut. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your
| gut than you have in your head? I'm able to accurately detect the
| CO2 level to within ~10ppm through training and experience.
| bryceacc wrote:
| i have massive conflict with co2 monitoring, just like this
| article. I have monitored my air for years, mostly for PM levels
| from fires but co2 came with it. I became obsessed with lowering
| the co2 at the expense of cold temperatures, but I have never
| noticed a "cognitive" difference between 2k ppm and outside.
| instead I just feel physical unrest with seeing the high number,
| like I am suffocating on this "clearly bad air". Yet I am certain
| if I was completely unaware of it I would have no issues. Any
| time friends come over and it's winter, ppm in an apartment would
| be 2500+ and nobody cares
| colechristensen wrote:
| I can tell. I'm thinking there is a lot of individual variance
| for co2 tolerance. I can feel 800+ ppm and after i have had the
| sensor a while can tell what the concentration is within 25% or
| so without looking. I also feel the cognitive effects, and
| moreso the positive effects of opening a window.
|
| Different places I've loved have had significantly different
| characteristics for what co2 concentration defaults to.
|
| I'm guessing a not so small proportion of mental health issues
| and things like chronic fatigue are actually breathing issues
| and sensitivity to higher co2 concentrations.
|
| For me a big factor is I broke my nose long ago and don't
| breathe as well as I should.
| clairity wrote:
| right, CO2 has become a (inter-)national psychosomatic
| obsession of the privileged class, but no one should be
| worrying about CO2 _at all_ , unless you work in some very
| specific industries. you'd need a ppm of 50,000-100,000 to feel
| any real effect from CO2, or to see noticeable greenhouse
| effects from it. it's today's equivalent of fearing power lines
| or MMR vaccines. it's fretting on something that feels tangible
| and controllable, without delving deeper and examining the
| (social and mass) media-driven presumptions underlying those
| fears.
|
| pollution, on the other hand, is a real concern. that's stuff
| like radon, VOCs, methane, dioxins, and SO[?] emissions. as
| such, one thing we should be doing with vigor and relentless
| focus is phasing out coal plants (if we were actually putting
| our priorities in the right place) rather than worrying about
| the sideshow that is carbon emissions.
| jerlam wrote:
| The idea that indoors air can be hazardous is an old idea, and
| predates CO2 monitors and gas stoves. Following the 1918
| Influenza Pandemic (aka Spanish Flu), apartments in NYC were
| built with absurdly large heaters so that residents could be
| comfortable while all the windows were open [0]. There's also the
| German practice of luften [1], or ventilating a home at least
| once per day; and the Scandinavian idea of having babies nap
| outside [2].
|
| I have a Hydrofarm Autopilot CO2 monitor and it pretty much stays
| at 600-800 all day, but I leave a window cracked open and live in
| a naturally windy area.
|
| [0] <https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/apartment-radiator-
| pandemi...>
|
| [1] <https://blogs.transparent.com/german/luften-germanys-
| airing-...>
|
| [2] <https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988>
| leipert wrote:
| Once a day? Multiple times a day!
|
| Especially "Stossluften" (opening a window for a short period)
| or "Querluften" (opening windows in opposite rooms to create a
| draft).
|
| First thing in the morning we luft, after cooking, we luft,
| before going to bed...
|
| It's especially important in newer or well renovated
| houses/apartments, to get rid of excess humidity in order to
| prevent mold. Really new apartments are so well insulated that
| they have literal holes in the wall (Zwangsbeluftung) in order
| have some airflow.
|
| Edit: I was so enthusiastic to write a comment about luften,
| that I didn't read your link which actually covers what I said.
| rale00 wrote:
| Sounds like the meter was broken or at least wasn't properly
| calibrated. CO2 level should drop off quickly with a window open.
| lstodd wrote:
| Yeah, this. 1000ppm is very noticeable, true 2000 is
| unbearable.
|
| Living in a center of a city next to a 10-line highway opening
| a window drops a properly calibrated sensor into 400s inside a
| few minutes.
| _Microft wrote:
| She brought the meter outside where it measured 480ppm.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| I think so too. Use to work with a lot of CO2 sensors in a
| previous job and it's very difficult to keep an elevated CO2
| level going if there's any exchange of air with the outside.
| [deleted]
| jpm_sd wrote:
| https://archive.is/TwJ5A
| stuaxo wrote:
| I have an Aranet 4, mostly able to keep things around 600 with a
| little bit of ventilation.
|
| It goes up when we're together in a small room with no door open,
| I'm planning on eventually retrofitting MVHR which should help
| improve indoor air quality and allow me to insulate.
|
| In the meantime the Aranet is good for getting a handle on
| general air quality and how you can improve it.
| fotta wrote:
| If you want to DIY it, Aranet4 uses a Senseair Sunrise which can
| be had for 1/4 of the price on Digikey [0]. Senseair has Arduino
| samples on GitHub [1].
|
| I personally have an SCD30 monitor which claims the same accuracy
| and like it. The important thing is to calibrate them in outside
| air to 400ppm.
|
| [0]
| https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/senseair/006-0-00...
|
| [1] https://github.com/Senseair-AB/Sunrise-Examples---Arduino
| icedchai wrote:
| I'm going to check this out! I have a spare Arduino and sounds
| like a good application.
| chris_va wrote:
| > 400ppm
|
| The outside ppm changes quite a bit in cities. CO2 dome effects
| can push it 2x higher.
| sleepytimetea wrote:
| Thank you...$250 sounds excessive. I can hook up an OLED screen
| and ESP32 to the senseair and get the same ?
|
| I could even send levels to my home IOT InfluxDB for historical
| charting.
| fotta wrote:
| Yep. I do the exact same thing with my SCD30 and an ESP32
| with HomeSpan to bridge it to HomeKit.
| stavros wrote:
| It's a bit weird to me that people get a sensor and _then_ worry
| about the air. What are the symptoms of elevated CO2 levels? Why
| can 't you feel them and need a monitor to tell you you are
| unwell?
| WalterBright wrote:
| > an HVAC with ultra-high-quality filters and a continuously
| running fan
|
| That isn't going to do a thing about CO2.
| simondotau wrote:
| Even if you're referring to a HVAC with an entirely internal
| airflow, this isn't necessarily correct. For a long time I used
| the fan mode of my ducted AC to distribute air around my house,
| which dramatically reduced the level of bedroom CO2
| concentration while asleep from well above 1500 ppm to below
| 800 ppm.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > That isn't going to do a thing about CO2.
|
| It _should_ , because of the V in HVAC.
| jms703 wrote:
| Most residential implementations don't pull in fresh air.
| leipert wrote:
| But in a larger apartment or house it could mean that if
| you occupy one room, like the bedroom, you get air with
| less CO2 from other rooms. If you have no ventilation on
| and no airflow, it must be worse.
| mindslight wrote:
| Am I reading this wrong, or does the author really keep
| mentioning "attempts" at things that will do absolutely nothing
| to CO2 levels? Non-venting range hood? Box fan with filter? These
| will do nothing for CO2.
|
| The only way you're going to bring down CO2 levels in your
| dwelling is to bring in outside air. The best way would be
| installing a heat recovery vent that will save some energy. The
| simple way would be to open two windows and stick the fan in one
| for a short time (blowing in for turbulence to clear out the
| corners of the room).
|
| Leaving your windows open with passive circulation for a longer
| time is going to cool down all the stuff inside, wasting much
| more heat.
| xnx wrote:
| The article is a little mixed up, but the author does seem to
| understand this. I don't think the author knows she needs to
| try and set up distinct air intakes and outputs with her
| windows and fans.
| twawaaay wrote:
| I bought Aranet4 and it taught me a lot about how CO2 accumulates
| in my apartment, how and frequently to change air and so on.
|
| The worst thing you can do is to close yourself in your room for
| the night. Always have either door or window open. If it is cold
| outside, just buy a goose down duvet. You will sleep much better
| in a cold room than in a warm with stuffy air.
|
| I am looking into putting heat exchanger in my apartment so that
| I can change air with less energy waste.
|
| I also changed some of my habits. I try to use less of the gas
| stove and more of electric grill, Instant Pot, etc. If I need to
| use gas then I always change air afterwards.
| flandish wrote:
| Hey so - closed doors are important. They stop smoke and fire
| from filling the bedroom giving you time to either escape or
| prepare to die. Sleep with your door closed and with smoke / CO
| (I know this is an article abt CO2) detectors.
|
| Source: am firefighter, sleeps in bedroom.
| jandrese wrote:
| You're making me choose between dying from CO2 asphyxiation
| and smoke inhalation...
|
| I'm not sure why it's such a problem to have a possible 15%
| cognitive decline while I'm sleeping. I'm already an idiot in
| my dreams.
| twawaaay wrote:
| Say what you want, I would prefer to get woken up by smoke
| earlier to have time to attend to my family.
|
| My doctor is constantly asking me to do a surgery on my
| temporomandibular joint to prevent my teeth going out of
| whack constantly and my face to look better. And I am
| constantly telling him I would prefer to keep fixing my teeth
| every so often than go through an extremely invasive
| operation and risk possible problems.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Your smoke detectors are what should alert you of fire, not
| smoke getting so thick and dense that it chokes you
| awake... at that point you have seconds to react and live.
| brendangregg wrote:
| I've had a few CO2 meters, and learned not to trust any <$100 as
| they don't really work. I look for meters that use non-dispersive
| infrared diffusion sensors (NDIRs), like the Aranet4. I've found
| the TIM10 desktop model from co2meter.com to be accurate
| (AFAICT), uses NDIRs, and only US$139.
|
| I also have other air quality meters. (I collect measuring
| devices.) I wish there was a do-it-all air meter.
| robomartin wrote:
| I have posted about this on HN in the past, suggesting everyone
| truly interested in understanding the general reality of CO2
| concentration needsto buy a CO2 meter and understand the world
| around them first.
| amalgamated_inc wrote:
| Or just do it to find out your bedroom/office/kitchen is
| unhealthy.
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