[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Does "choose not to identify" hurt your chan...
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Ask HN: Does "choose not to identify" hurt your chances when
applying online?
If you've been applying for jobs recently you're familiar with the
ubiquitous final trivia round of filling in the application form:
What's your gender, what's your race, are you a veteran, do you
have a disability. Most of the times, you're given the option to
opt-out of providing that information - and I feel like I would
_like_ to opt out of regurgitating my stats but I 'm curious about
what impact that might have on my attractiveness as a candidate.
I've only ever participated in the hiring process at the interview
level, not as a hiring manager / recruiter - does anyone have any
insight to share into not just the ideal utility of those
questions, but the actual practical implications of a non-answer
from an applicant?
Author : mock-possum
Score : 15 points
Date : 2023-02-02 20:04 UTC (2 hours ago)
| xupybd wrote:
| If the company is trying to add diversity to a team they might be
| looking to fill more spots of x gender, race or disability. If
| you don't fit that gap then it probably doesn't matter if answer
| or not. Not that they will pass you up if you don't fill that
| criteria. Imagine if your company is getting bad press because
| you have a 90% male work force. There will be pressure to hire
| any good non male candidates.
| munchbunny wrote:
| Speaking from my own big tech hiring experience, as the hiring
| manager, and working with our recruiters from HR, if you do not
| belong to one of the "in demand" demographics, then it generally
| does not make a difference between providing the true value and
| declining to provide that information, because the positive
| identification of underrepresented groups was the part that made
| a difference.
|
| I never got to see the responses myself, but the recruiters from
| HR could. That said, if a hiring manager wants to bias their
| hiring based on this information, they'll figure out at some
| point before making a decision, whether or not you provided it.
| Your resume, your name, your educational background, your accent,
| etc. all passively shed information, so I would often find the
| answers without wanting to or trying to find them.
| mcsniff wrote:
| I answer the question using another question -- do I want to work
| at an organization who cares about that kind of stuff?
|
| Are my "disabilities" being ranked against my abilities?
|
| I get that everything can be a checkbox and "right fit", but if
| someone looks over me for not checking a diversity checkbox, I am
| happy to be not hired by them. Job applications and interviews
| are a 2 way street.
| neaden wrote:
| Companies over a certain size in the US, as well as ones that
| work with certain government contracts, have to report
| aggregate numbers about their applicants to the Equal
| Employment Opportunity Commission. It is illegal for them to
| use this information for any hiring decisions or even to share
| the information with the people making the hiring decisions.
| [deleted]
| samtho wrote:
| But when it's legal for them to decline moving forward
| because of "culture fit" it might as well be legal to
| discriminate based off of that criteria.
| mancerayder wrote:
| One company I know has HR specifically questioning and
| grilling hiring managers who turn down a 'diverse' candidate
| after an interview. That's a roundabout way to achieve the
| same.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| It's entirely possible that they had an anti-discrimination
| lawsuit filed against them and this is one of the things
| they agreed to do as part of a settlement.
| mock-possum wrote:
| yep, that's part of my worry as well, which is why I'm curious
| how this data is _actually_ getting used.
| 71a54xd wrote:
| I always say I'm gender neutral / gay and since I'm tan always
| check that I'm hispanic.
| bruceb wrote:
| One could argue one should mark it as it shows of all applicants
| a certain % are of X attribute, so hiring applicant of X isn't
| unusual as maybe they made up a large or even super majority of
| applicants.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Most of the times, you're given the option to opt-out of
| providing that information - and I feel like I would like to opt
| out of regurgitating my stats but I'm curious about what impact
| that might have on my attractiveness as a candidate.
|
| The employer should (many will explicitly note that they do they
| do this, both to make people more comfortable answering and to
| mitigate lawsuit risk) separate the information from your
| application so that no one involved in the selection process will
| ever have access to it. While this is gathered for statistical
| purposes, its almost entirely stuff that would be bright-line
| violations of anti-discrimination law to use in the selection
| process.
| halfnormalform wrote:
| Like an EEO questionnaire? It probably doesn't matter. No one who
| is making a hiring decision is supposed to see that information,
| and it only gets used for reporting purposes (so they can prove
| they aren't discriminating against anyone).
|
| I'd be very surprised if any legitimate recruitment tool exposed
| that information to anyone evaluating you.
| runnerup wrote:
| The question here isn't about what "should" happen or what is
| legal. It's a question I share -- for which types of companies
| will this hurt my chances of landing a job?
|
| Surely there are some out there who abuse these responses. I'd
| personally prefer to put "decline to answer" for all
| race/veteran/disability questions. But I don't because I'm
| worried someone will notice that and think I'm a weirdo for doing
| it.
| mock-possum wrote:
| yep that's exactly where I'm at.
| gardenhedge wrote:
| Just mark down identify as female
| mock-possum wrote:
| why?
| [deleted]
| stcroixx wrote:
| Yes of course. If the goal is to hire for attribute x and you
| decline to say whether you posses that, they will pass you over
| until they find what they're looking for.
| mock-possum wrote:
| If your goal is to hire for attribute "no disability" and I
| decline to say whether I possess that, then it's illegal to
| pass me over - same with attribute "is not a woman" or "is
| white." So unless you're suggesting that they ask these
| questions to enable them to practice illegal hiring
| discrimination, I'm not really sure this applies to my
| question.
|
| Military service is the only one I can think of that's legal to
| take into consideration.
| stcroixx wrote:
| Illegal hiring discrimination is the norm from my
| perspective. There are departments that set targets for what
| they want the makeup of the company to look like. Hard if not
| impossible to enforce.
| mock-possum wrote:
| well that's fair, that is the sort of inside info that I'd
| like to know.
|
| And actually, that means I was unfair about your first
| comment - I wouldn't want to work for a place that operates
| that way anyway, as another top level comment notes. I
| think I can safely discard secret illegal hiring practices
| as a concern when interviewing, which does solve my issue
| of whether to answer truthfully or simply opt-out of those
| questions.
| 988747 wrote:
| One man's "illegal hiring discrimination" is another man's
| "social justice" /s
| hw-guy wrote:
| I was indoctrinated at Very Big Corporation back in the
| 80's that given a white and a black job applicant, the
| company's policy was to prefer the black one as long as
| they meet the minimal requirements for the job. This was
| presented in annual mandatory Affirmative Action training
| as offical company policy, and was supposedly a requirement
| for government contracts.
|
| Never mind that it was a blatant violation not only of the
| Constitution, but of the letter of the very government
| policy that initiated Affirmative Action to begin with.
| aliqot wrote:
| I try to think of it in the most charitable way possible: "in
| what ways can we accommodate this person's needs". Sometimes
| the ideal candidate can be unique in ways you'd not
| considered at first. It shows care to pay attention to those
| details and make them feel welcomed.
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(page generated 2023-02-02 23:03 UTC)