[HN Gopher] Testing Noctua's NH-P1 with Ryzen 7700x and Intel's ...
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Testing Noctua's NH-P1 with Ryzen 7700x and Intel's i9-13900K
Author : walterbell
Score : 117 points
Date : 2023-01-29 09:54 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (boringtextreviews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (boringtextreviews.com)
| salzig wrote:
| > Error 404 - Not found
|
| > Your browser can't find the document corresponding to the URL
| you typed in.
|
| My browser? And I thought the server would search through its
| files to serve me a page. This site seems to be included in my
| browser.
| chx wrote:
| Very interesting. The pioneering cooler in this space was the
| Scythe Ninja which has been shipping with fans for a while now so
| I am not sure how well it fares in passive mode. Deepcool has the
| GAMMAXX S40 and the REDHAT both of which mentions passive cooling
| but it ships with fans. NoFan IMO is gone, Prolimatech doesn't
| even have AM4 much less AM5 brackets for the Megahalem... Is the
| space deserted save for this NH-P1??
| onli wrote:
| > _Is the space deserted save for this NH-P1??_
|
| To my knowledge: Yes. The NH-P1 is the only somewhat recent
| passive cooler I saw released.
|
| Which is not all that surprising, when Intel cpus regularly use
| 200W and more and you basically never want a completely passive
| build. One with only an optionally used fan, sure, but then why
| not use a cpu cooler where the fan can spin so quietly that is
| is not noticeable, like with the NH-D15 or many AIOs?
|
| (That said the NH-P1 is definitely on the list for a future
| build of mine)
| Klaster_1 wrote:
| I used to run a first gen Mugen with a E7200 and i5 4570 in
| passive mode, with a 12cm case fan nearby, similar to what OP
| did. What a great product, I still regret selling it after 12
| years of use, but it would not fit into a SFF case.
| pshirshov wrote:
| There was also Thermaltake Sonic Tower, I've used it more than
| 10 years ago, it was a very nice cooler.
| lmz wrote:
| Thermalright still seems to sell the HR-02
| http://thermalright.com/product/hr-02-plus/ / "Macho" family
| which still says "fanless" somewhere in their description but
| it's unclear how much power they can handle when fanless.
| alexklarjr wrote:
| Noctua brand is magical. You put noctua logo on any radiator and
| it dissipate heat twice more effective. You put noctua logo on a
| fan and it twice as silent while pushing twice more air. Noctua's
| aluminium is not your regular aluminium, but much, much more. I
| heard car with Noctua radiator cooled to -274 once.
| indig0F10w wrote:
| [dead]
| mjh2539 wrote:
| This is only tangentially related, but I've been using these
| graphite-based thermal pads instead of thermal paste, and it's
| been painless. No throttling, and no messy paste!
| Havoc wrote:
| Was looking at these yesterday since I'm contemplating using it
| to make my desktop (3700X) quiet when retiring it to server duty
|
| I saw a nice price drop on them too (30%)
| meta-level wrote:
| Have a Streacom DB4, much cooler (pun intended)
| ComputerGuru wrote:
| I somehow get a 404 for this page.
|
| Archived copy: https://archive.is/ZrbgR
| extasia wrote:
| Getting a 404 error
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| The link appear dead already
| jmyeet wrote:
| Calling this fanless is one of those things that is technically
| correct but not really accurate. Instead of the HSF having a fan
| directly on it, you're simply relying on the case's cooling to
| dissipate heat. Fans usually allow you to put larger fans on and
| larger fans means more airflow and quieter operation.
|
| You can design the entire system to be passively cooled but this
| will limit the potential power. This might be fine. Having a
| high-end GPU means this is almost impossible. For anyone wanting
| such a system, you'll want to go with an AIO HSF and intake and
| outtake fans on the case.
| Normal_gaussian wrote:
| Is there a good aggregation of cooler performance somewhere? I've
| recently completed a build for the first time in a decade and was
| pleasantly surprised by tools like PC Part Picker, the assembly
| was a breeze (many micro improvements by everyone), and
| everything 'just worked'.
|
| Literally the only question I was out cold for was which cooler
| is good enough? With some coolers rivaling RAM costs and cases
| having fixings for radiators... it really leaves you thinking.
| Then again, I left it on stock and have hooked temps into
| prometheus and everything seems fine so far...
| Trellmor wrote:
| While not a replacement for independent reviews, Noctua
| provides compatibility lists with rough thermal headroom
| indicators[0].
|
| They also have compatibility list for motherboards, cases and
| RAM to see if it will physically fit[1].
|
| [0]https://ncc.noctua.at/cpus
|
| [1]https://ncc.noctua.at/
| m463 wrote:
| I did a lot of research for a theadripper, including AIO liquid
| cooling and all the reviews said noctua fans were as just as
| effective and as quiet for a fraction of the price and
| complexity.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| The U14 or D15 cost about as much as a 360/420 AIO.
|
| Whilst they can have similar performance you aren't saving on
| costs especially when you buy a 2nd fan for the main cooler
| which is another $25 or so if it's Noctua.
| jeffbee wrote:
| I switched from a Noctua to a 320mm AIO and was not happy.
| The cooling capacity with the AIO is slightly higher, but
| it makes much more sound at idle. The pump never stops and
| unlike a loafing fan it makes a high-Q tone that is clearly
| audible in a quiet room. That was very disappointing. All
| the reviews said the AIO is "silent" which would have been
| easily disproven by objective measurements, even with free
| apps on a smartphone.
| zokier wrote:
| I'm in similar boat; my current desktop has 360mm aio
| cooling, and it makes me wonder what is peoples baseline
| if it can in any way be considered quiet. It feels louder
| than any my past aircooled builds, I definitely expected
| more from it.
| caycep wrote:
| For just Noctua, they have a numerical rating scale for all
| their models, I think.
|
| SilentPCreview?
| wincy wrote:
| The ice giant thermosiphon seems to be the state of the art
| right now from what I've seen. To the point where that's being
| used by the world's top overclocker instead of water cooling
| loops.
|
| If I were building a system I'd just slap one of those in, buy
| some Noctuas for quieter fan operation and ignore it, and let
| the CPU turbo to its hearts content.
|
| Edit: link https://www.icegiantcooling.com/
| Scene_Cast2 wrote:
| The issue is that heatsinks for quiet operation are better
| off with larger gaps between fins (smaller number of fins per
| inch, FPI), and Thermal Siphon goes the other way for best
| operation with powerful, loud fans.
| drtgh wrote:
| I didn't know about them, so I've checked, IceGiant ProSiphon
| Elite vs Noctua NH-D15,
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0OQxbMvo80
|
| At min 26:30 it's shown test results, and the performance
| seems better with Noctua NH-D15. Less noise (less rpm) for
| the same temperature dissipation.
|
| Noctua's performance with low noise is among the main reasons
| why I own one since several years ago ( And also why I choose
| air-cooling over water-cooling). It would be interesting to
| know if someone has beaten them (At same performance, less
| weight would be something for to take in account).
| robga wrote:
| The IceGiant ProSiphon has fittings for 4 x 120mm pwm fans.
| Fitted on my ThreadRipper, I switched the stock IceGiant
| fans out for Be Quiet Silent Wings. A significant extra
| cost to be sure. I'm sure some Noctua fans would fit. Best
| of both worlds.
|
| Any judgment on thermosiphon technology (where noise is
| largely not a factor) should not be conflated with a
| judgment on the quality of attached fans. Sold together as
| a product, though, I suppose it remains relevant.
|
| Remember to compare any noise savings against the total
| noise. e.g. I have 8 other fans in the box. If memory
| serves when I built it, tech websites were reporting that
| the temperature under load with an IceGiant was lower.
| MikusR wrote:
| World's top overclockers use liquid nitrogen
| robga wrote:
| On my 32 core ThreadRipper I've been running an Ice Giant
| since it came out. It's excellent. The only gotcha is to
| ensure your case can fit it in.
| oblak wrote:
| How big is this thing next to something like NH-D15?
| rejectfinite wrote:
| Noctua always. For best performance on air cooling.
| emn13 wrote:
| Yeah, the ad-funded model and how that supports reviewers seems
| to have damaged well structured and comprehensive independent
| review sites. It's all in videos or really low-effort stuff
| nowadays, and that makes it hard to draw conclusions without
| significant effort - and even then, considerable risk of
| drawing the wrong conclusions.
|
| I think this affects far more than just coolers; it's simply
| that for categories that have few options (say, CPUs) it's
| easier to slog through all the youtube videos, and there still
| exist a few text-based reviewers.
|
| But cases, ram, motherboard AIB versions, GPU AIB versions...
| even power supplies often - reviews are suprisingly sparse and
| hard to compare and rarely comprehensive.
| yread wrote:
| notebookcheck.net has good written reviews (only the final
| percentage score is sometimes weird).They do occasionally
| review desktop hardware too
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| They are for me the only page remaining who still do
| decent, methodical reviews on metrics that I find of
| interest.
|
| For example, idle power consumption.
| delusional wrote:
| Can you really blame reviewers? Doing a comprehensive
| thorough review is hard work that has to meet a very
| aggressive deadline to maximize utility. Meanwhile youtube
| channels like LTT are printing money on low quality low
| effort content. Obviously you'd rather do that.
| eCa wrote:
| Some of LTT's money goes towards the not-yet-launched LTT
| Labs, which is meant to become a serious test facility.
| lhoff wrote:
| > Meanwhile youtube channels like LTT are printing money on
| low quality low effort content.
|
| I find this statement rather snarky and it is imho quite
| close to being against the HN Guidelines. Anyway I also
| think it is wrong. Sure not all videos from LTT are high-
| quality well researched and contain thorough testing but
| when they are really reviewing a product they put a lot of
| effort into it. They are even in the process of building a
| decked out lab to facilitate proper testing.
|
| An example of this is their review of the recently released
| Ryzen 7000 non-X CPUs. They tested 11 different CPUs in 9
| different games and 14 productivity benchmarks and further
| testing with regards to thermals and power consumption. The
| whole 18 minute video is basically Linus explaining result
| charts for these various tests.
| https://youtube.com/watch?v=CTiRNnSg0jA&t=9s&pp=2AEJkAIB
|
| I encourage you to watch this or any of the other hardware
| review videos and think about reevaluating your opinion. I
| don't want to come across as a fanboy but it think your
| under a quite outdated impression and I think it's unfair
| with regards the investment and change LTT is undergoing as
| of late.
| rossmohax wrote:
| Despite all the effort, benchrmak results are still not
| consistent. The other day I wanted to check how Ryzen
| 7600 compares to i13600k in code compilation. Ratio in
| time between these 2 processors reported by different
| authors were wildly different:
|
| LTT: 129% GN: 160% Techpowerup: 105%
|
| With results fluctuating up to 2 generational differences
| it is hard to make sense, despite all the authors effort.
| This leaves that kind of content more of entertainment
| rather than informational and from that perspective low
| effort doesn't bother me.
| emn13 wrote:
| Presumably "compilation" is such a broad basket of
| activities that they each use a different workload. Have
| you looked at phoronix? They tend to cover that niche a
| little better, and will potentially have numerous
| compilation benchmarks.
| emn13 wrote:
| I'm not blaming anyone; it's just an observation that it's
| harder to find comprehensive reviews than it used to be.
|
| I mean, stuff like
| https://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU-2020/2758 still exists,
| but I get the impression they no longer have the resources
| they once did to really fill it the way they used to; and
| similar things goes for other sites. I think the best
| option I know about that remains is
| https://www.techpowerup.com/review/, but they're much less
| in depth than what used to be available. It's still great
| to have such a broad set of reviews, mind you, and they're
| doing a great job. I get the impression there's much less
| funding for stuff like this, making the last few survivors
| all the more impressive.
| mrlucax wrote:
| The Gamer Nexus reviews are independent and extremely
| methodical and honest. It's by far the best PC components
| reviewer on YouTube right now.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| YouTube is almost completely useless for reviews. You can't
| scroll the video, meaning you have to watch almost all of
| it to realize they're actually not evaluating the metrics
| you are interested in. One would think a video would make
| it harder for a reviewer to just parrot official PR, but
| alas...
|
| The only time I ever find a YouTube review of interest is
| when e.g you are actually showing some physical
| characteristic of the product, which is almost never the
| case for PC components, but maybe the case in some portable
| devices (tablet PCs come to mind). Notice that on these
| types of physical aspect reviews the reviewer himself
| doesn't appear at all on the video. In most PC components
| "video reviews" you are simply staring at the face of the
| reviewer. They could literally do without the video at all
| (save for a couple of still images where tables are
| presented) and would still be as informative, if not more.
| Some could even do without the audio...
| m463 wrote:
| yd-dl / youtube-download helps.
| pohuing wrote:
| Have you actually looked at the GN reviews or are you
| just assuming this... I agree that text would be nicer to
| have but man. Also there's chapters now at least, so if
| you don't care about the analysis you can just jump to
| the numbers.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| > so if you don't care about the analysis you can just
| jump to the numbers.
|
| I really disagree. See for example
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtVowYykviM . Does he
| measure idle power consumption ? It's impossible to tell
| from the chapter names. (Spoiler: he doesn't). Also
| whether he compares the performance of the 7900 sans X
| with the 7900X at similar power levels (Spoiler: he does,
| albeit only for 7950X and a minority of the benchmarks.)
| This is a video which is supposed to be about power
| efficiency, so it catches my attention; but most of it is
| about runtime benchmarks with only a couple
| power/efficiency comparisons early on. And after watching
| the full video, I cannot think of anything about the
| visuals that helped made his point clearer. A simple
| plain page with a couple of tables would have been at
| least as much helpful, or even more helpful, since it
| would have been searchable. If you disagree, can you
| elaborate what did you feel the video/audio provided over
| a static HTML page ?
| pohuing wrote:
| No you're right that text would be better, especially
| when you're looking for specific things. I have a feeling
| though that we're in the minority with that
| unfortunately. What's sad, and what I had assumed was
| still the case, is that GN no longer uploads transcripts
| to their website.
|
| I had the same gripe learning firebase with pretty great
| official tutorials, which would have taken half the time
| if I could just read them.
|
| The automatic transcripts work fairly well which is how I
| cope with it.
| rom-antics wrote:
| If youtube is not your thing, they also post results on
| their site. Here's their most recent review:
|
| https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/3635-fractal-
| meshify-2...
|
| Look at that set of tests for a _case_. What more could
| you want?
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| The most recent review is from more than 2 years ago ?
| rom-antics wrote:
| Oh dear you're right, I didn't look at the date. I guess
| you're stuck with youtube then, sorry, forget everything
| I said.
| newsclues wrote:
| "It's all in videos or really low-effort stuff nowadays,"
|
| GN doesn't really update their website with written
| reviews.
| oblak wrote:
| https://techpowerup.com is still alive.
|
| I can think of a few others, including an offshoot of [H]
| called thefpsreviews.com but I've seen a lot of crappy,
| low effort "reviews" just in time for the "video cards
| are finally cheap" manufactured craze last year, which
| was last straw for me.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| They have degraded significantly over the last few years.
| Up to around 2015 it was about my #1 reference source.
| It's how I found out about the fact many GPUs used to
| triple or quadruple their power consumption just because
| of an extra monitor being connected, and that AMD's HBM-
| based GPUs were at that point a surprising exception
| (when otherwise AMDs GPUs are usually the worst at it).
| These days however I have to take everything they measure
| with a grain of salt, and at some point I even had a
| discussion with a member of staff on the merits of having
| idle power consumption measurements at all. Something has
| definitely changed on their side.
| oblak wrote:
| The one I really miss is techreport.com
|
| Now, these guys used to deliver some quality stuff,
| including the big frame pacing thing that finally
| convinced the masses that no, fps number is not
| everything. One of the owners joined AMD and yeah, it's
| been dead for several years.
|
| Community was quite nice, too.
| knolan wrote:
| https://www.frostytech.com/ used to be good but I've not looked
| in many years so I've no idea if they're still useful.
| shmerl wrote:
| I think passive cooling generally benefits from design where
| walls of the case are themselves working as heatpipes.
| neilv wrote:
| broken link.
| https://web.archive.org/web/20230129101252/https://boringtex...
| smileybarry wrote:
| It was probably taken down for being published before the
| embargo dropped, since it shows the 7700X.
| ilyt wrote:
| Nope. Other links on main page also do not work, someone
| fucked something up
| amaranth wrote:
| The 7700X came out months ago, the one supposedly coming out
| soon is the 7700X3D.
| smileybarry wrote:
| Ah right, they just released the non-X models and the X3D,
| not the X-s.
| _dan wrote:
| https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:z0qv4i...
|
| Google's cache, for anyone else having trouble with
| archive.org.
| mckirk wrote:
| Well, now that link is dead as well apparently, so I'm
| starting to believe there is indeed some info here that
| wasn't supposed to be public (yet).
| branon wrote:
| webcache.googleusercontent.com still loads for me. (edit:
| and web.archive.org loads again now too)
|
| Interesting, the NH-P1 has been out for a while and other
| comments suggest it's not the 7700X, could it be the ASRock
| motherboard mentioned? Also no, because there are two links
| to reviews of it present in the article body.
| prvc wrote:
| Hope these catch on. There have been a handful passive coolers
| for mainstream desktop CPUs that have been released over the past
| two decades, but they never became very popular.
| anthonyryan1 wrote:
| I feel compelled to mention that this space has existed as a
| niche community for many years now.
|
| I've personally been using a NoFan CR-80EH in my workstations for
| over 10 years. I think it's subjectively the most beautiful
| heatsink I've ever seen.
|
| You do need to plan your build to accomodate such a cooler
| though. - Open Air case to allow free movement of air in and out
| of your case - 65W TDP CPU
|
| While a lot of people feel like 65 watt TDP is limiting, there
| are some impressive chips you can use under that threshold that
| don't feel like a compromise. Eg the Ryzen 9 7900 (not-X).
|
| And if the rest of your office is quiet, eliminating ambient
| background noise is a delightful improvement.
| turtleyacht wrote:
| > plan your build
|
| Some more tips from a recent install of a Noctua NH-P1:
| * If AMD, make sure you have the backplate or contact
| Noctua support for assistance * The backplate
| will slide under the space between the case and
| motherboard, with just a slight bit of anguished
| bending * Had to move the top-mounted power
| supply (PSU) out of the way completely. * 2mm is about
| the size of a crayon tip, when applying the thermal
| paste * Had to move a (Scythe) fan out too, but
| the provided clips let me put it on top
|
| The stock CPU cooler on the old AM3 was a source of coil whine,
| but not anymore :)
|
| A Thinkpad T30 idling nearby also helps mask further sounds.
| bjoli wrote:
| I always wanted to do such a project and decided to go for it.
| I ended up hating it because it made me realize how much I hate
| coil whine. I mean: it looks so friggin cool, and placing it on
| your desk will probably give much better air circulation than
| under it. No fans spinning just made me realize how much noise
| most computers make that is hidden under fan noise.
|
| I did have dedicated graphics card though, but a passively
| cooled one. None of my friends found it bothersome, so maybe
| I'm just sensitive.
| dijit wrote:
| FWIW Coil Whine affects some machines much more than others.
|
| The sad part is, coil whine is unpredictable, two machines
| with the same make/models can behave differently.
|
| Coil whine is usually much more noticeable when you fully
| load a system too.
|
| What I would do is buy components and then fully load them as
| much as I could, and RMA anything with noticeable whine.
|
| It's not "normal", Dell XPSs for example were notorious for
| bad coil whine where as my macbook air doesn't have any at
| all.
| cfn wrote:
| This is a simple me too. I have had a Xeon (65W TDP) cooled
| with NoFan 24/7 for some 5 years. It began as my main developer
| machine and is now a proxmox server. It just works.
| cout wrote:
| I do like that design -- it reminds me of the Zalman Flower,
| which I also find beautiful.
| mjrpes wrote:
| Interestingly, the 7900 currently costs more than the 7900x
| (quick Amazon search). And my understanding is the 7900 is just
| the 7900x that has its TDP defaulted to 65 watts. So you could
| buy the cheaper 7900x and just go into BIOS and limit the TDP
| to make it a 7900.
| korv wrote:
| _Interestingly, the 7900 currently costs more than the 7900x_
|
| 7900 comes with a (supposedly decent) fan, 7900X does not.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> this space has existed as a niche community for many years
| now_
|
| Yes, I also remember the passive cooling community has existed
| for a long time, with it being a very big thing when PCs were
| loud monstrosities, but I feel it has peaked sometime in the
| mid to late '00s and has been slowly loosing momentum since
| active cooling solutions became much quieter and better at
| ramping up/down with load, with most CPUs, GPUs, PSUs coolers
| nowadays even turning fully off when idling or under low load,
| along with the shift from PCs to mobile devices, making the
| need for passive-only PC cooling solutions a small and
| expensive niche that not many venture into.
| PufPufPuf wrote:
| I noticed that this page published 5 reviews in total, starting
| just three months ago. I wonder how they convinced the companies
| to send them hardware to review (even if it's not "free" and they
| have to return it afterwards). I always thought that these large
| corporations only care about big reviewers / influencers.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| They usually spin off from forum posters on larger sites who
| have been buying and reviewing their own gear as forum posts
| and have enough clout from those communities that they start to
| be sent things.
| politelemon wrote:
| This does look interesting, PC building has improved by bounds
| and bounds in recent times, giving me better performance and
| longevity for my money. This fanless design is worth a
| consideration, the current go-to for people who want silence is
| AIO liquid coolers. They aren't terrible but do affect radiator
| placement. If this NH P1 can be prove viable for gaming setups it
| might take off.
|
| > Nonetheless, I strapped on Noctua's NF-A15 fan and tested the
| NH-P1 again. The added fan increased the total cooling capacity
| from 150W to 200W in long term cooling scenarios.
|
| A photo of this setup would be quite useful
| def_true_false wrote:
| AIOs are far from silent.
| onli wrote:
| AIOs can be very quiet. Mine is (Corsair H90), but only when
| the pump is not running full speed (then it is quiet, but not
| very quiet).
| layer8 wrote:
| There can be an arbitrarily large difference between "very
| quiet" and "silent", or more precisely, between "still
| perceptible" and "not perceptible". This depends on the
| environment (whether it's so silent that you could hear a
| pin drop) and also on the individual hearing threshold and
| accommodation. AIOs are generally more perceptible than a
| silent build using fans.
| neilv wrote:
| This cooler itself doesn't have a fan, but it looks like the test
| system has at least 4 large case fans, including 2 directly
| inline with the cooler. And sounds from the text like the fans
| were spinning.
|
| I love Noctua, but a totally fanless system would be a more
| interesting test.
| Trellmor wrote:
| Gamers Nexus have a video testing the NH-P1 fanless[0]. Without
| fans it wont handle as much and you are probably limited to
| about 65W TDP CPUs.
|
| As a matter of fact, Noctua has a compatibility guide where
| they list the expected performance w/ and w/o a fan[1].
|
| [0]https://youtu.be/N8EjMwS2ut0
|
| [1]https://ncc.noctua.at/coolers/NH-P1-68/cpu/all/AM4
| topspin wrote:
| > Noctua has a compatibility guide where they list
|
| Of course they do. Noctua is an excellent company. Hard to
| imagine how they might improve. And some credit to PC
| builders is deserved as well; they've supported this company
| and its products and paid the requisite price for years,
| despite a literal horde of cheaper competition.
|
| I appreciate how little regard they have for the RGB
| blinkenlights crowd.
| Havoc wrote:
| The cooler is designed for both actually - Noctua has
| references to it on their site both with and without
| CTDOCodebases wrote:
| In order for this to work the case has to be designed for this
| type of cooler or there has to be airflow in the case.
|
| With the right case (Fractal Define) and 3 case fans dialed
| down it's possible to make the system basically silent. Then
| replace HDDs with SSDs and a passively cooled gpu.
| Ygg2 wrote:
| That's fine I can stick a bit more case fans to avoid a huge
| CPU case fan.
|
| It be perfect for my DIY home NAS build.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| The case fans are larger and spin much more slowly, plus they
| are running them at 35% speed. This should be practically
| silent compared to any CPU fan.
| ri0t wrote:
| Well, that is.. unlikely. With a bigger CPU, you'll need to add
| a fan to the cooler, as well. And your mainboard/ram/gpu/ssds
| generate a lot of unwanted heat, too.
|
| Might work for extremely energy efficient systems, though.
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