[HN Gopher] Smoking is associated with lower cognitive function ...
___________________________________________________________________
Smoking is associated with lower cognitive function in older adults
Author : geox
Score : 80 points
Date : 2023-01-28 14:45 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (news.weill.cornell.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (news.weill.cornell.edu)
| earthbee wrote:
| My mother has COPD from being a life long smoker. Because her
| lungs aren't working 100% her blood oxygen is often lower than
| optimal, I'm starting to be able to notice when her blood oxygen
| is low because her sleep pattern gets weird and she starts making
| silly mistakes in the tasks she's doing.
|
| So that's one way smoking can be a cause of lower cognitive
| function.
| eloff wrote:
| Even moderate alcohol consumption is also associated with
| cognitive decline. It reduces your white matter (connections
| between neurons.) My brain is my biggest asset, I would not do
| anything to compromise it. I don't touch marijuana or street
| drugs primarily for that reason. Yet I drink.
|
| So I'm changing that. I'm doing a complete sober month, after
| which I may go back to drinking occasionally, but only in social
| activities (once a week or less) and a limit of 3 drinks. So far
| I'm on track and I don't miss it anymore (the first week I did.)
| It's not worth the downside to me.
| latchkey wrote:
| Just read this one today...
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/KitchenConfidential/comments/10my22...
|
| Not just drinking booze, but how/what you drink. Imagine all
| that sludge passing into your system and the effect it has on
| you.
| dr_faustus wrote:
| The question is: are people stupid because they are smoking or
| are they smoking because they are stupid.
|
| From the press release, it does not seem that they took any
| measures to establish causation (like comparing IQ tests from the
| time before people started smoking). I would wager that people
| with higher cognitive abilities might be more amenable to the
| advice of their doctors.
| mistermann wrote:
| > The question is: are people stupid because they are smoking
| or are they smoking because they are stupid.
|
| I would argue that culture is a better root cause causal
| explanation, with stupidity and smoking both being consequences
| of that (though each with their own causal influence to some
| degree).
| tinus_hn wrote:
| Correlation does not equate causation.
| msla wrote:
| People say this and refuse to see that correlations are also
| extremely interesting and worthy objects of study.
| lolinder wrote:
| > "You still think I've gone cracked in the head," Ben said,
| amused. "Listen, if tomorrow we pulled into Biren and someone
| told you there were shamble-men in the woods, would you believe
| them?"
|
| > My father shook his head.
|
| > "What if two people told you?"
|
| > Another shake.
|
| > Ben leaned forward on his stump. "What if a dozen people told
| you, with perfect earnestness, that shamble-men were out in the
| fields, eating--"
|
| > "Of course I wouldn't believe them," my father said,
| irritated. "It's ridiculous."
|
| > "Of course it is," Ben agreed, raising a finger. "But the
| real question is this: Would you go into the woods?"
|
| -- Patrick Rothfluss, The Name of the Wind
| TillE wrote:
| I _love_ that whole scene and that passage in particular, one
| of my all time favorites from NOTW. Rothfuss is an incredible
| writer.
| electric_dreams wrote:
| [dead]
| throwaway128128 wrote:
| Tucker was right that smoking "frees your mind".
| aliqot wrote:
| I think this is a class thing coming out in the data. I don't
| smoke but nicotine itself helps people think clearer, sharper,
| it's a great thing
| lupire wrote:
| Does nicotine help for long duration (hours) after consuming
| it?
|
| Also smoking has a lot of non-nicotine garbage and poison.
| aliqot wrote:
| it has a short halflife similar to caffeine, so no,
| unfortunately the effects taper shortly depending on dosage
| and ROA
| lifty wrote:
| Depends how you consume it. I assume cardio vascular health
| will have long term consequences on cognitive function so a
| lifetime of smoking might have a negative effect in thinking.
| Loveaway wrote:
| Here's a tip: you can buy concentrated nicotine shots from
| vape stores, mix 10ml with 5ml ethanol and 5ml water, add a
| drop of menthol, and you got dirt cheap nicotine mouth spray
| (Nicorette sells the same thing for an arm and a leg).
|
| Purest, "healthiest" method of consumption I found. Not sure
| if I'd call it a great thing though. It's still addictive,
| and no matter what anyone says, I'm pretty sure nicotine is a
| mild poison. Would advise anyone to stay clear of the
| substance, unless you're already an addict and currently
| smoking/vaping/snusing, then it's a great alternative.
| koverda wrote:
| Any sources on that?
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Nicotine is a wonderful anxiolytic (anti-anxiety)
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4439881/
|
| There is no evidence that I am aware of that supports it
| otherwise improving cognition, but for many people
| anxiolytics will behave like nootropics (and indeed are
| sometimes listed as one!)
| guerrilla wrote:
| Hmmmmmmmmm is that why I got much more anxious after
| quitting... Interesting!
| plusminusplus wrote:
| ...in the 169 rats that were part of the study.
|
| It further concludes:
|
| > _High doses of nicotine or repeated exposure may also
| promote anxiety_ (citing 3 studies)
|
| > _low doses of nicotine have a similar effect to decrease
| anxiety behaviours [...] whereas high doses of nicotine
| promote anxiety behaviours_
| prettyStandard wrote:
| https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=nicotine+improves+memor.
| ..
|
| Obviously the query will bias the results, but I do believe
| this is true.
|
| But there is a big difference between smoking and nicotine.
| isthisthingon99 wrote:
| Foods have nicotine. Perhaps not as dense as cigarettes but
| still
| aliqot wrote:
| thats where vapejuice nicotine comes from, tomato, eggplant
| etc
| lolinder wrote:
| Nicotine could help you think sharper in the short term while
| _smoking_ still does long-term damage to the brain. This study
| was about smoking specifically, not nicotine consumption in
| general.
| [deleted]
| tristor wrote:
| Luckily we have some good research on both. It turns out
| smoking, of /any/ substance, is a net negative for a person's
| health. It is unsurprising that there is long-term damage to
| the brain, because in the short term when you smoke you are
| causing a reduction in oxygenation, which no doubt has long-
| term effects when done repetitively, nicotine aside.
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| Definitely. Lower class status is associated with smoking. It
| is certainly the inhaled particulate matter that is causing
| cognitive issues -- similar associations to cognitive decline
| can be found with high PM2.5 exposure, irrespective of the
| source (industry, traffic, cooking, woodsmoke, etc).
| vehemenz wrote:
| Yes, but the smoking demographic may experience higher
| cognitive decline in general due to other lifestyle factors
| not caused by inhaled particulates.
| kaispowergoo wrote:
| Can you elaborate on this?
|
| What other lifestyle factors involving the smoking
| demographic are you referencing?
| vehemenz wrote:
| Smoking is more prevalent on the lower end of the
| household income scale, so any other lifestyle factors
| that correlate with income (too many to list here) will
| contribute to poorer health outcomes for the demographic
| in general.
| throwaway290 wrote:
| Or just with oral breathing in general
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8228257/
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| Nicotine apparently results in higher cotinine levels (which is
| the marker with which they found a link with lower cognition in
| this study).
|
| I wonder if there's something about the effects on the brain
| over time that makes cognitive function worse over time, even
| if it's helpful in the short-term.
|
| It's also possible people are self-medicating.
|
| If you tested cognitive function on people who have been
| prescribed to adderall their entire lives vs. people who had
| not, you might find lower cognitive function in the group with
| ADD.. but that could also be due to the tests favouring
| neurotypical people.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Smoking is probably associated with any number of other poor
| health choices. Seems like the constellation of them as a whole
| may be a reasonable cause, less so than any one of them.
| lolinder wrote:
| That's literally the purpose of this study: to control for two
| other major health problems and see if the (already recognized)
| correlation still holds.
| ineedasername wrote:
| And I'm saying there are many more, dozens of small choices
| and more, that make up a bigger picture. I'm talking about
| choices, not other medical conditions. Choices _can_
| influence hypertension and diabetes but choices alone are not
| always enough. Smoking is always a choice.
| breck wrote:
| Here is some constructive criticism for the authors:
|
| - Do not put your article behind a paywall. If you want the best
| scientists to look at your work they don't have much time to
| waste fiddling with logins and paywalls and so your work won't
| get analyzed by the people who could provide the most help. If
| you want to "win" in science in the long run, put it in the
| public domain. Or, to put it bluntly: #LicensesAreForLosers.
|
| - You need to include a scatterplot up top. The importance thing
| when you talk about "cognitive function" is the distribution, not
| the average. If it lowers average cognitive function, but also
| increases odds of a higher outlier or two, then perhaps the
| tradeoff is worth it.
| thfuran wrote:
| >you want the best scientists to look at your work they don't
| have much time to waste fiddling with logins and paywalls and
| so your work won't get analyzed by the people who could provide
| the most help.
|
| Won't they mostly be using some university IP with
| subscriptions to basically every journal and not see the
| paywalls in the first place? At least that was my experience of
| university.
| 2devnull wrote:
| Smoking is stupid. Am I missing the point?
| taneq wrote:
| [flagged]
| throwanem wrote:
| Shall I tell you, from the perspective of a former smoker,
| about the categories that never-smokers seem to fall into?
| mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
| You left out a significant group: addicted, unhappy about it,
| but unable to kick the habit.
|
| Which is most smokers I know who have smoked for more than a
| few years, including myself.
|
| Smoking actually does have a lot of mental effects, either
| directly or indirectly. For one it has a marked effect on
| oxygen saturation which definitely can have cognitive effects.
|
| Nicotine itself is very short-lived, and can temporarily
| improve some cogntitive functions. But since the possibility of
| smoking is highly variable throughout a typical active day,
| this effectively leads to a sort of oscillation between short
| windows of increased cognitive function and decreased function
| due to beginning withdrawal.
| cwmoore wrote:
| This is helpful insight but describes behavior that falls
| under both suggested categories.
| [deleted]
| sph wrote:
| > you have to be a bit dim to be smoking in your 60s
|
| I just love people that have never been addicted in their life
| to preach inane bollocks like this.
|
| Surely, if people are addicted, they should just stop being
| addicted. What's the problem?
|
| Tell me, how do you categorize people that are not afraid to
| voice their opinion about something they have absolutely no
| clue about? Please educate yourself. Addiction is neither a
| weakness nor a choice.
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| "Not that bright" could be a genetic predisposition manifesting
| as cognitive issues.
| xkcd1963 wrote:
| Stating the obvious while using scientific words is associated
| with useless work
| callesgg wrote:
| > Promoting smoking cessation may be a good way to preserve
| cognitive health at the population level, irrespective of
| diabetes and hypertension status, the researchers concluded.
|
| Seams like that is a statement that can not be made solely based
| on the stated connection. To me the initial thought that occurred
| when reading was something like:
|
| "yeah well smoking is dangerous. People with more cognitive power
| are presumably better at reasoning themselves out of smoking;
| Given the fact that smoking is known to increase the risk of
| getting cancer."
|
| If that description describes something that is a big factor in
| determining a persons smoking habit, smoking would not
| necessarily cause a cognitive decline as implied in the
| recommendation.
| dundarious wrote:
| > Promoting smoking cessation _may_ be a good way to preserve
| cognitive health at the population level, irrespective of
| diabetes and hypertension status, the researchers concluded.
|
| _Emphasis_ mine. They don 't appear to claim anything
| definitive. But given this new study, and others that claim
| causal links with smoking leading to atherosclerosis, etc.,
| it's quite plausible. Yet they don't go too far, and still do
| the right thing and say _may_.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| Man, you clearly have no clue about addictions. Addictions work
| with your emotions 100x stronger than you can muster your
| reasoning against it. I'd say willpower is the only defense.
|
| You are basically saying - if I am smart enough, I will reach
| this tantric nirvana in lotus position and wave away these
| pesky addictions forever (joking a bit but not that much). Not
| based in reality, which is more like permanent weakness or
| crack forms in your persona that you can never mend back to
| original state, just with tons of continuous effort keep
| working around it, till your last day. It gets a bit better
| over time, but it takes literally decades and not that much.
|
| _Very_ smart people struggled with addictions, and failed for
| their whole lives, even if they knew perfectly well how deep in
| shit they were. Cigarettes are much worse due to smart
| marketing of tobacco this lethal addiction was completely
| normalized by society, and in many places still is, so its
| extremely easy to access them in one 's close circles. That's
| why roughly 95% of the tobacco addicts never succeeded with
| stopping.
| [deleted]
| beezlewax wrote:
| Cognitive reasoning has nothing to do with addiction. Addicts
| invent the most convoluted complex reasoning to not quit that
| are also contrary to facts they are keenly aware of. Mental
| gymnastics.
| darkerside wrote:
| Former smoker, and I agree with this.
|
| More likely, people who smoke do function better cognitively
| with a cigarette in their hand. They are nervous and
| irritable without it. Their brains probably produce
| insufficient dopamine when they aren't smoking.
| Maursault wrote:
| Nicotine has a positive effect on memory. But lower blood
| oxygen levels and 300+ intentionally added carcinogens to
| make smoking more addictive probably has considerable
| adverse effect. People that hate smokers refuse to accept
| that there is a massive difference between tobacco and what
| is in cigarettes.
| themitigating wrote:
| People who are addicted to cocaine perform better at their
| jobs if provided with it versus those who are in withdrawal
| [deleted]
| bee_rider wrote:
| You have to smoke the first couple cigarettes to get
| addicted, though...
| [deleted]
| ineedasername wrote:
| Socioeconomic factors and other random circumstances are
| going to impact exposure & normalization of the behavior.
|
| Thought experiment: Take 1000 13 year olds of equal
| cognitive capacity and place half in peer groups where some
| smoke half in peer groups where none smoke. I'm guessing
| there would end up being more of the first 500 that decide
| to take up the habit.
|
| There is also a difference between cognitive function and
| reasoning capacity, the later also strongly influenced by
| socioeconomic factors.
| lo_zamoyski wrote:
| Indeed. This is a matter of virtue. Being more "adept" can
| lead to more elaborate rationalizations and evasions of the
| truth to justify substance abuse or even deny that any abuse
| is happening.
| bluecalm wrote:
| It's not like inventing most convoluted, complex reasoning to
| delude yourself on a simple matter is a sign of high
| cognitive capabilities. Quite the contrary.
|
| An intelligent addict will say: I realize it's terrible but I
| am losing the battle against the urges every day. Anything
| more than that smells like low cognitive ability to me.
| rcme wrote:
| > Cognitive reasoning has nothing to do with addiction.
|
| Citation needed. As the GP pointed out, we have a correlation
| between addiction and lower cognitive function based on this
| study.
| guerrilla wrote:
| No, there's no citation needed because there are plenty of
| genius addicts and this study alone proves nothing. At the
| absolute bare minimum this would have to replicate.
| rcme wrote:
| > there are plenty of genius addicts.
|
| How many is plenty? And how does that compare to the
| general population? The claim isn't that addiction and
| intelligence are mutually exclusive. Rather, the claim is
| that intelligence makes addiction less likely.
| guerrilla wrote:
| Almost all that I care about mid-last century anyway. I
| mean give me a break, Einstein smoked. If you seriously
| think addiction has anything to do with intelligence then
| you've never been addicted and know nothing about it.
| rcme wrote:
| Here is a study that looks at alcoholics:
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6851852/
|
| According to the study, alcoholics had a lower baseline
| IQ _before_ becoming addicted to alcohol. So that does
| seem to support that lower cognitive function is somehow
| linked to becoming an addict.
| themitigating wrote:
| Could that also mean Einstein might have been even
| smarter had he not smoked
| irrational wrote:
| That's no proof they didn't suffer cognitive decline.
| Perhaps Einstein did suffer cognitive decline.
| themitigating wrote:
| I get what you're saying but best not to say "prove it
| didn't.."
|
| Better to note that since the study isn't claiming every
| person who smokes suffer cognitive decline showing a
| person who is a genius and smokes isn't a counter
| Idk__Throwaway wrote:
| A genius addict disproves the broader claim no more than
| does "it was cold today, therefore global warming is a
| hoax". The rule can be true yet still have notable
| exceptions throughout history.
| guerrilla wrote:
| No, you're just intentionally ignoring the word "plenty."
| Idk__Throwaway wrote:
| There are "plenty" of cold days as well. Does that
| disprove global warming?
|
| Not only is "plenty" not an objective quantity, but even
| an objectively large quantity is irrelevant if it's not a
| large percentage of the whole. 100k geniuses with
| addiction problems wouldn't disprove the rule if there
| are 1b people with addiction problems who are of below
| average intelligence.
| themitigating wrote:
| As he should. Plenty is extremely vague. It definitely
| means more than 1, probably more than 3, but after that.
| 8note wrote:
| It's actually "genius" that's the problem. There aren't
| enough geniuses to affect a trend on their own.
|
| You could swap "plenty" to "every" and it would still
| have the same problem
| mistermann wrote:
| Rare is the person who doesn't engage in mental gymnastics,
| like post-hoc rationalization of sub-perceptual heuristic
| predictions of what is true, sometimes accompanied by
| proactive debunking of alternative perspectives.
| [deleted]
| corobo wrote:
| Can confirm anecdotally on this one. I had accepted the
| logical reasons to quit a good year or so before I actually
| got rid of them.
|
| When I did manage to kick them it was after I read the Easy
| way to quit smoking by Allen Carr which helped with the
| mindset then admittedly I ruined the data by moving house and
| starting a work from home job, therefore got rid of all of my
| cigarette initiating habits in one go.
| nohuck13 wrote:
| Are your sure your anecdote confirms this?
|
| The higher cognitive function that leads you to read books
| about quitting could be exactly the mechanism the GP
| describes.
|
| If books can help you quit, less bookish people will quit
| less, all else equal.
| williamcotton wrote:
| From what I remember, Easy Way even tells you to keep
| smoking when you start the book and to stop reading if
| you don't feel ready!
|
| FWIW, I also credit that book with me finally quitting
| the habit.
| evo_9 wrote:
| Smoking _cigarettes_. Should really be crystal clear on that
| point.
| TillE wrote:
| Inhaling smoke of any kind is inherently bad for you, it
| releases all sorts of carcinogens and other crap. Vaping is
| orders of magnitude safer, and for weed edibles are of course
| your best option.
| mistermann wrote:
| > Inhaling smoke of any kind is inherently bad for you
|
| I think a solid argument could be made that lack of usage of
| drugs (even just plain old marijuana at a minimum) causes
| more harm than smoking, my thinking being roughly: drugs can
| (at least temporarily) break through the mental state
| established by cultural ~programming, cultural programming is
| the underlying cause of many evils in the world, and many
| such evils can increase dependence on addictive substances as
| a coping mechanism.
| dqpb wrote:
| [flagged]
| vehemenz wrote:
| Look everybody, this guy is smarter than Bertrand Russell!
| ineedasername wrote:
| People are very rarely only or all one thing. People who smoke
| make an idiotic decision about on specific behavior. How many
| of your decisions have to be idiotic to make you an idiot?
| Before you answer, how many of your actions have to be good to
| make you a good person?
| agolio wrote:
| What if I told you that cigarette smoke imparts a flavor and
| relaxing cognitive effect that some people enjoy in moderation
| while being aware of the health effect?
| resoluteteeth wrote:
| Unfortunately it seems like it's almost impossible to "enjoy
| in moderation"
| 4RealFreedom wrote:
| My family has a bi-weekly game night. Once every couple
| months someone will bring cigars and almost everyone
| partakes. Most don't smoke regularly. Seems like cigar
| smoking actually is enjoyed in moderation more so than
| cigarettes.
| plusminusplus wrote:
| Cigar smokers typically do not _inhale_ the smoke, unlike
| cigarette smokers
| snakeboy wrote:
| I'm not sure how culturally-specific this is, but as a
| foreigner living in France, I notice the majority of
| smokers I meet are those who smoke exclusively while
| drinking. So to that extent, they appear to have sufficient
| will-power to resist most of the time, but the lowered
| inhibitions and the mental association between alcohol and
| smoke I guess are overwhelming.
|
| I wonder what the tangible negative effects are of smoking
| 4-5 cigarettes a week like this compared to 4-5 a day? I
| also wonder to what extent this is a French phenomenon.
| kaispowergoo wrote:
| How so?
| cwmoore wrote:
| This may violate the HN policies about name-calling or shallow
| dismissals, but is also either derogatory to actual idiots or
| factually incorrect.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| > _factually incorrect_
|
| Einstein smoked, so I would agree with this. ;p
| cwmoore wrote:
| Einstein is a strong counterexample, but to account for
| changing times, there are some notable non-idiots more
| recently:
|
| https://josephcrusejohnson.blogspot.com/2017/10/morris-
| chang...
| DangitBobby wrote:
| Not that I agree with OP but... I don't think Einstein
| lived in a time where the harms of smoking were so well
| documented.
| eric_h wrote:
| My mother was a cardiovascular pharmacologist and worked
| with many people who knew at the time that smoking was
| bad for your health (70s, 80s, 90s). She smoked for
| decades, but she observed that the doctors and phds she
| worked with that specialized in the heart and lungs were
| more likely to be smokers.
|
| She quit many years ago and is still around, thankfully.
| guerrilla wrote:
| but it was still inhaling smoke which we are clearly not
| meant to do. That was OP's point. It wasn't that we
| shouldn't smoke because of the things we've learned
| since.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-01-28 23:02 UTC)