[HN Gopher] The McMurdo Webcams
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The McMurdo Webcams
Author : wankle
Score : 72 points
Date : 2023-01-21 18:15 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.usap.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.usap.gov)
| Jolter wrote:
| Looks like 503 Hugged To Death Error.
| system2 wrote:
| I am getting 503 as well. HN hug wouldn't be 100,000 sessions
| per minute. Strange.
| AviationAtom wrote:
| Y'all killed it...
| wankle wrote:
| I wonder if diesel heating will be banned there. Geothermal is
| banned to avoid harming the environment. But, diesel is OK?
| Perhaps humans shouldn't be there until fusion is fully
| developed.
| briffle wrote:
| They had a small nuclear reactor in the 60s. But removed it in
| the early 70s.
|
| Could be a perfect place for a new SMR.
|
| http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph241/reid2/
| sp332 wrote:
| Diesel heating for 1,000 people isn't going to make a dent.
| sacrosancty wrote:
| [dead]
| l- wrote:
| The Protocol on Environmental Protection to the Antarctic
| Treaty does not ban geothermal. Its surprising "scientific"
| exploratory attempts have not occurred given the proximity to
| Mt Erebus.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Diesel is a "tragedy of the commons" type damage - your damage
| blends with everyone elses.
|
| Geothermal on the other hand is local damage - it will be
| blatantly obvious who exactly is responsible for any
| environmental damage.
|
| Top tip for polluters: If possible, give out pollution like
| CO2, because it's invisible and mixes with everyone else's CO2,
| and when global warming sea level rise wipes out pacific
| islands, you can shrug and point to everyone else.
|
| Whereas if you damage one specific area, some government might
| come and fine you or put you in prison.
| the_third_wave wrote:
| CO2 is not "pollution", without it at at least 150ppm none of
| us would be alive for a lack of plant life. NOx and SO2 are
| pollutants responsible for smog (etc.), better focus on those
| if you want to give an example of something which can be seen
| in the light you try to place CO2.
| ed25519FUUU wrote:
| > "Temperatures may reach 8degC (46degF) in summer and -50degC
| (-58degF) in winter."
|
| There's no way I would trust my life to any fuel but diesel in
| this environment.
| jszymborski wrote:
| And yet today seems to be only -4degC
| messe wrote:
| So... within the typical range for summer?
| jszymborski wrote:
| I'm dumb and forgot for a moment that the southern
| hemisphere has opposite seasons from the northern
| hemisphere.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| People from the Northern Hemisphere don't occasionally
| forget this - they very rarely remember.
| hammock wrote:
| That, and/or seal fur
| jibe wrote:
| and whale oil
| the_third_wave wrote:
| And a radioisotope thermal generator.
| jacoblambda wrote:
| They used to have a small scale nuclear reactor run by the army
| but it was too difficult to maintain without issue so they
| ended up decomming it.
|
| At mcmurdo and scott, wind power, etc are healthily
| supplementing and slowly substituting diesel but ultimately
| arctic diesel will stay a staple because it consistently
| operates at extremely low temps. Especially inland where the
| temperatures are regularly lower than -70C.
|
| As for the geothermal being banned, that's because it takes a
| lot of digging and "permanent changing of the environment".
| Doubly so since the low temperature environment means you have
| to use a ton of additives in your transfer fluid to keep it
| from freezing up during condition 1. If the circulation loop
| blows, those additives will stay in the environment effectively
| indefinitely given the weather.
|
| So as much as I prefer geothermal, it makes sense why it's
| banned. Even if they just accepted the risk, they'd still need
| diesel infra in case of emergency or else there's a very real
| risk of people on station dying in the middle of a long, hard
| condition 1 storm which would prevent fly-ins from bringing
| emergency supplies.
|
| Also it's only mcmurdo(~1k people), scott(~70-80 people),
| palmer(~40-45 people), rothera(~150 people), and signy(~10-15
| people) which have actual ground contact that aren't in a
| pristine field lab environment (like the dry valley) so there's
| only a few locations that could even use geothermal. The rest
| are either in field lab environments where you can't risk
| contaminating the ground or on ice shelfs where you have to dig
| down a few hundred meters or even a few kilometer to find
| anything other than solid ice.
|
| Of those few viable locations, only mcmurdo, scott, and rothera
| actually justify the infrastructure cost (with all but mcmurdo
| only having enough people to justify it in the summer months).
|
| So ultimately instead of choosing between maintaining diesel
| infra and maintaining both diesel infra and geothermal which
| both have their own problems you know have to address, they
| chose to just use diesel unless a project can prove the
| geothermal infra won't have con 1 failure and deep ground
| contamination risks.
| dchristian wrote:
| It's amazing that they have the bandwidth for this. I assume
| there is a US or NZ based server that serves the world, but
| still.
|
| I was there in the 92-93 season. We were lucky to have e-mail
| back then.
|
| We did our own special internet link for a project that used
| spare bandwidth on a non commercial satellite. We had 1.544mbit
| up and 9600 down. We sent what would eventually be called motion
| jpeg for "video". There was no audio. The satellite dish was
| pointed 3deg below the horizon; but we were on a mountain, so
| that was fine.
|
| McMurdo is a fabulously weird place. The US Navy manages all the
| food/fuel/housing logistics. Then you get the researchers coming
| through to do projects. They may be working from McMurdo, but
| most are just be gearing up to go out on the ice. These are often
| grad students, researchers, and faculty. So the average IQ is
| much higher than your typical ski town.
|
| The staff that works the station is there because they like the
| environment. You find people with college degrees doing
| maintenance and safety trainings. Most are just there for the
| summer season (which is now). Some will winter over.
|
| Most of the fuel and cargo comes in once a year. The ice breaker
| is at the ice dock, so that can happen any time now.
|
| Everything else is flown in/out from NZ at considerable expense.
| Early in the season the ice is thick enough to land jets like the
| C-5 and C-17. While they are in the ground, they have to move
| them every few hours to keep the ice from cracking under all that
| weight. By this time in the season it's probably just C-130s
| doing everything. Once the sun goes back down, all flights cease
| and there is nothing can get out for 9 months.
| ankaAr wrote:
| Bandwidth was my first concern years ago when I applied to be
| sysadmin in Antartica (Carlini base). The only thing that I
| wanted was a full backup of stackoverflow.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| that was a thing though, no? On kiwix on iOS I think. I know
| I have all of wikipedia on mine.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Next time just bring your own copy of chatGPT
| whatshisface wrote:
| I didn't think the ChatGPT model was available to the
| public
| antitoi wrote:
| they have Starlink now thanks to laser links btwn the
| satellites
| https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/15/23354013/starlink-antarct...
| sbarre wrote:
| > It's amazing that they have the bandwidth for this.
|
| We seem to have broken that bandwidth because I'm getting a 503
| now!
| bacon_waffle wrote:
| I agree, just want to add a couple updates in case folks are
| interested in getting involved.
|
| > The US Navy manages all the food/fuel/housing logistics.
|
| These days, actually I think since shortly after you were
| there, this is handled by (sub)contractors. "Antarctic Support
| Contract" is the phrase to search for, currently Leidos,
| Lockheed before that, Raytheon before that. US Military flies
| the LC-130s and C-17s, operates the ships, but has little other
| involvement.
|
| > Early in the season the ice is thick enough to land jets like
| the C-5 and C-17. While they are in the ground, they have to
| move them every few hours to keep the ice from cracking under
| all that weight. By this time in the season it's probably just
| C-130s doing everything. Once the sun goes back down, all
| flights cease and there is nothing can get out for 9 months.
|
| This has changed a bit too. For a very long time, there has
| been another runway on permanent ice (called "Pegasus" after a
| plane that crashed out there, as opposed to the "Ice Runway"
| that I think you're referring to, which is on annual ice just
| out of town) which can handle wheeled aircraft (C-17, chartered
| commercial passenger planes) in summer. Pegasus historically
| wasn't used a lot because it's inconvenient and the
| soot+dirt+wear isn't good for the ice surface.
|
| At least for a few years recently they've routinely done a few
| flights over winter in to McMurdo - I believe the idea was to
| support a year-round rebuild of the whole station. But, the
| McMurdo winter was traditionally more like 6 months ending with
| "winfly" when a couple flights bring in people to open up the
| station for "mainbody" aka summer. Pole winter is roughly 9
| months, driven by the temperatures being too cold for the
| hydraulics in the LC-130s.
| dchristian wrote:
| I wondered if the C-17 would be a game changer for them. It
| was just entering service back in 92. They had the land
| landing strip back then, but it's too short for a C-5. The
| C-17 was designed to handle shorter and rougher landing
| strips than the C-5.
|
| The Antarctic Support Contract was a thing back then too.
| They did most of the day-day operations, while the Navy
| managed flights, supplies, the mess (cafeteria), and the
| like. I don't really know the division of responsibilities.
|
| Do you know if they are landing on winter flights, or just
| doing airdrops? The later is much easier to do. Even in the
| summer, the C-130s have to fly with enough fuel to return to
| NZ because there have been times when the winds become too
| high to land (and NZ is the "nearest" alternate runway).
| hiidrew wrote:
| recommended: https://brr.fyi/
| gsmo wrote:
| It's buried on the site but they also have a fantastic
| photogallery: https://photolibrary.usap.gov/#1-1expanded
|
| To add: a while back I discovered who this guy did a slice-of-
| life video journal of his time in the south pole station. Super
| interesting! https://www.youtube.com/@GoneVenturing/playlists
| DontchaKnowit wrote:
| If anyone can tell me what the hell I am looking at in image
| 37, I would be forever grateful.
|
| I can't even imagine seeing that in person I'd lose my
| everloving mind.
| hgsgm wrote:
| Click through
|
| https://photolibrary.usap.gov/PhotoDetails.aspx?filename=202.
| ..
|
| Crabeater seal with serrated teeth.
| earthscienceman wrote:
| It's so funny to be watching the recent HN obsession with extreme
| environments. It seems to be more focused on Antarctica, which is
| kind of the "charismatic megafauna" of polar research. Having
| lived in Greenland and on icebreakers, I can assure you that the
| world of polar research is weirder than you might ever imagine.
|
| In particular with respect to the size of these communities.
| McMurdo is effectively a remote city. But life at south pole,
| summit station, east grip, dye2, svalbard and onresearch ice
| breakers would be what you should look into if you are curious
| about these sorts of things. I'll link to a (small) selection of
| my photos from Russian icebreakers below that I've shared before.
|
| Also also. Check out the Russian drifting stations for truly
| insane stories:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drifting_ice_station
|
| https://photos.app.goo.gl/CL6Rc4TE7ddZd4Xo7
| Scoundreller wrote:
| dying to know if the pool is saltwater or fresh water (or fresh
| water that becomes increasingly salty as the voyage continues).
|
| I'm guessing it's integrated with the engine's cooling, and is
| effectively free to heat.
| sebmellen wrote:
| Amazing photos!
|
| I had the pleasure of meeting Scott Parazynski (an incredibly
| impressive emergency medicine physician, astronaut, and
| adventurer who was the first person to summit Mt. Everest and
| go to space), and he said working at the McMurdo base over the
| winter was perhaps the hardest thing he'd done. He also said
| alcoholism is incredibly prevalent in polar regions during the
| winter.
|
| Curious if you've seen the same thing?
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_E._Parazynski
| Waterluvian wrote:
| A friend of mine spent half a year in Alert, Nunavut. He said
| it was fun until the wolves started eating each other when food
| got scarce. Then it clicked that this is a place that will kill
| you.
| downvotetruth wrote:
| What's bigger than a house with an indoor pool, burns 70 tons
| of fuel in a day, puts out a load of noise and smoke for a town
| and cuts ice in half?
|
| A Soviet machine made to cut ice in half in both directions!
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| 70 tons a day?!? I can see why they are trying to make these
| nuclear powered now
| thedrbrian wrote:
| >70 tons of fuel a day
|
| you're ok , they're nuclear powered
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear-
| powered_icebreaker?use...
| guestbest wrote:
| I wonder if any international criminals have sought to evade
| capture on that continent. It would be the closest thing to going
| to Mars
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Criminals, no. But Werner Herzog's documentary on people that
| work at the research station (Encounters at The End of the
| World) paints a fascinating picture of the people that decide
| to basically leave modern society for months/years at a time.
| You definitely have to be a special type of person and even a
| borderline social outcast to make it a regular job.
|
| One of the researchers he interviews about it describes how he
| lives life with no real home and always has a bag packed with
| enough essentials to go hike out into the wilderness anywhere
| in the world--Herzog asks to see the bag and the person happily
| pulls out an enormous pack and starts pulling out stuff like an
| inflatable pack raft, stoves, tents, etc. The big point is that
| you have to be a special kind of person that's not really
| attached to modern society to go live and work at the end of
| the world.
| rocket_surgeron wrote:
| >You definitely have to be a special type of person and even
| a borderline social outcast to make it a regular job.
|
| Many, many years ago I was in the Army and served with a man,
| Corporal White, who was the oddest person I had ever met. He
| was probably the best soldier I have ever seen, but refused
| to take anything seriously and treated the Army as a game to
| be played (as one should).
|
| Anyway, he put in a DA4187 form, a personnel action request
| form, with roughly four words on it: "request duty in
| Antarctica", it worked its way up the chain of command, and
| after several months a telegram (the army sent telegrams
| called PERSGRAMS up until the late 90s!) arrived assigning
| him to duty in Antarctica.
|
| He spent about six months down there, in his words "moving
| around barrels and crates and playing Nintendo", and came
| back engaged to a scientist.
|
| Now he and his wife are itinerant adventurers and I don't
| think they've lived anywhere for more than six months in the
| last 25 years.
| etrautmann wrote:
| Yes and no. There's 1000 people down there and plenty of them
| have relatively normal lives back home for ~7 months or the
| year. Some do travel the world and then come back to McMurdo
| every year.
| [deleted]
| barbecue_sauce wrote:
| They would have to be extremely well prepared and avoid contact
| with any research station personnel.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| I can't imagine how that would work. Living outside a base is
| out of the question.
|
| Maybe if you somehow assume the identity of somebody working at
| one of the research stations and are able to do their job? If I
| was going to write a book and make it halfway plausible that's
| how I'd have the character do it. But unless I'm mistaken
| everybody has a fairly specialized job and/or is a grad student
| or professional scientist.
|
| edit: There are some perhaps "somewhat" unskilled positions, I
| see, such as "Positions in waste management, food and station
| services, retail, lodging coordination, and more."
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20230120081822/https://www.usap....
| m348e912 wrote:
| I was curious what time it was there since there didn't seem to
| be much activity. Looks like McMurdo is on New Zealand time
| (GMT+13).
| dchristian wrote:
| Yes, it's NZ time. Since most of their flights and logistics
| are through NZ it makes the most sense to use that time zone.
|
| The sun just orbits and never sets. So any normal day/night
| cycles doesn't exist.
|
| There are other (smaller) bases on the Antarctic peninsula. I
| don't know what timezone they use. Their supplies are coming in
| from Chile or Argentina.
| Nitrolo wrote:
| I always imagined these antarctic stations as a kind of
| spaceship, with a lot of technology and effort poured into them
| but maybe a few dozen scientists at most operating everything.
|
| Instead this is a whole town! Wikipedia says the population is
| 1000 people in the summer, which is probably 20 times more than I
| would have guessed.
|
| Fascinating, thanks for the link!
| etrautmann wrote:
| Yep, it's more like a petrochemical tank farm in terms of
| general vibe. I spent a month down there and it's a weird and
| fascinating and wonderful place.
| invalidator wrote:
| McMurdo is on the edge of the continent, at sea level. It's
| harsh, but not extreme like the things further inland, such as
| Amundsen-Scott (at the geographic pole), or Concordia (over
| 10,000 feet elevation in the middle of nowhere). Those look
| closer to the spaceships you envision.
| AviationAtom wrote:
| I never would have guessed that it's highest point is 16K ft.
| That's fairly impressive.
| notfish wrote:
| This is only recently possible! They just got starlink:
| https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-internet-service-antar...
| FpUser wrote:
| Place looks busy. Like a town now.
| joezydeco wrote:
| It's summer. Gotta get things done while the weather
| cooperates.
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(page generated 2023-01-21 23:00 UTC)