[HN Gopher] New Norwegian land could emerge from The Atlantic Ocean
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New Norwegian land could emerge from The Atlantic Ocean
Author : LastNevadan
Score : 66 points
Date : 2023-01-18 18:04 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (sciencenorway.no)
(TXT) w3m dump (sciencenorway.no)
| simonebrunozzi wrote:
| Hmm... A new micronation?
| effnorwood wrote:
| [dead]
| sacrosancty wrote:
| [dead]
| api wrote:
| This headline instantly conjured up an image of Norwegian black
| metal bands thrashing away as a black basalt island rises slowly
| out of the abyss with smoke and fire and lightning...
| 2000UltraDeluxe wrote:
| I'd buy that album!
| alex_suzuki wrote:
| That photo of the Beerenberg volcano in the first part of the
| article is stunning.
| dubcanada wrote:
| How would this work? If suddenly a brand new island appeared, who
| owns it? Assuming it's off Norways coast, Norway owns it. But
| what happens if it's between two country coasts or nobodies?
| peteradio wrote:
| It's actually covered under the universal dibs clause. Dibs!
| mattficke wrote:
| If it's within 200 miles of land, there's established protocol
| under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea[0] to demarcate
| maritime boundaries based on land borders. If the border went
| through the island there would need to be some sort of treaty
| negotiation to establish sovereignty.
|
| [0]
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on...
| midasuni wrote:
| So asssume there's a 20 mile gap between, and the island
| appears 18 miles of country A's coast, clearly it's part of
| country A.
|
| Is the new maritime border still at the 20 mile mark or is it
| equidistant between the new island, 11 miles off shore and 11
| miles from country B.
|
| But there great swathes of habitable land where we can't
| agree globally on what country it is, so as usual it comes to
| down diplomacy.
| mattficke wrote:
| The short version is that overlapping maritime borders are
| resolved by drawing the various buffer zones out from the
| shoreline of all coastal land of each country, and where
| they conflict take the approximate midpoint of the
| overlapping area as the border.
|
| Small islands can therefore have an outsized impact on
| extending the territorial waters of a country, which is why
| there are so many territorial disputes over seemingly-
| insignificant uninhabited islands.
|
| There's not always an unambiguous resolution to competing
| claims, see for example:
|
| - China's "nine-dash line"
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line
|
| - The Israeli-Lebanese maritime border dispute (which was
| only resolved last year) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra
| eli%E2%80%93Lebanese_marit...
| slicktux wrote:
| Have not read it...but is it due to isostatic rebound?
| bell-cot wrote:
| That was my first thought, too. But instead it's just-barely-
| submarine volcanoes on the Mid-Atlantic Ridge.
| jofer wrote:
| The article is actually talking about volcanic activity
| building things up. I.e. active volcanoes building up relative
| to the seafloor immediately around them.
|
| Isostatic rebound is also occurring for the overall area,
| though. It's just a smaller effect (millimeters to centimeters
| per year) vs the meters to hundreds of meters that can occur
| from an eruption.
|
| (For those who don't know, isostatic rebound is occurring for
| large areas where the ice sheets were very thick during the
| last ice age. The lithosphere (rigid portion of the earth)
| "flexed" downward as a result, and it's currently still flexing
| back now that the ice is gone. The mantle has a very high
| viscosity, though, and needs to "flow" into the space as the
| lithosphere flexes back. That means it's a process that takes
| tens of thousands of years to equalize. "Flow" is in quotes,
| because most folks don't think of solids flowing. The mantle is
| solid rock, but solid rock does flow.)
| bell-cot wrote:
| Article's subtitle: "Many active volcanoes can be found on the
| seabed within Norway's maritime borders. Some are now only a few
| metres below sea level. "
|
| The first para mentions that it's west of Jan Mayen (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Mayen ).
|
| So - not exactly high-value real estate. Even before you factor
| in the lush "above 70 degrees north, on the edge of the Greenland
| Sea" climate.
| hadlock wrote:
| China's made an entire business of expanding their territory by
| putting airfields on top of half-underwater islands. The
| Spratlys are horseshoe shaped atolls but have proven it can be
| done effectively and defensibly.
| (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/21/china-has-
| full...) You also get a ~200 mile EEZ for fishing and mineral
| rights, and a 6-12 mile territorial waters in the area as well.
| Portugal has been working on staking out an enormous chunk of
| the north atlantic for the last decade or so using similar
| strategy.
| spookie wrote:
| Portugal has a ton of actual islands though
| [deleted]
| jcranmer wrote:
| > You also get a ~200 mile EEZ for fishing and mineral
| rights, and a 6-12 mile territorial waters in the area as
| well.
|
| You _don 't_ get those for artificial lands or for
| insufficiently substantial islands. And an international
| arbitration under UNCLOS already ruled against Chinese claims
| in this regard.
| bell-cot wrote:
| What China - a superpower with a very confrontational and
| combative attitude - can get away with in its own back yard
| _might_ be quite different from what modest little Norway can
| or would try to do in the Greenland Sea.
|
| Also, talk to a few volcanologists and marine engineers about
| trying to build airfields on the tops of barely-above water
| active volcanoes. (Vs. China is building on shallow, solid,
| inactive atolls.)
| klyrs wrote:
| > Also, talk to a few volcanologists and marine engineers
| about trying to build airfields on the tops of barely-above
| water active volcanoes.
|
| Discount plane parking/moorage/incineration?
| zardo wrote:
| And Norway has plenty of EEZ, China is short on it.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| I think we need to understand that China is not
| "confrontational and combative" in a negative way.
|
| Think of it more like the kid who's been bullied for years
| and years and when puberty hits is finally able to stand
| his ground. That's China, and they're not the only ones who
| have been bullied over the last centuries and who may be
| able to stand their ground soon.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| The nine dash line is not at all standing their ground.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Those kids often _are_ the worst bullies!
| karatinversion wrote:
| Disagree. The Spratly island shenanigans, in particular,
| are squarely aimed at Malaysia, Taiwan, the Philippines
| and Vietnam, which in your analogy are the smaller,
| younger victims of the bullies.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| China has been claiming the South China Sea since before
| the PRC, hence why the claims by the ROC/Taiwan are same:
| the PRC took over the ROC's claims. Of course this is not
| the 'correct' narrative to say that...
|
| Every country has been acting the same. Look at what the
| US control and ask why that is. The difference is that
| China has been on the receiving end of the stick over the
| last centuries while the US (for instance) has been on
| the giving end. There is no right and wrong, just being
| weak or being strong.
| sklargh wrote:
| "Since you know as well as we do the right, as the world
| goes, is only in question between equal power, while the
| strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they
| must"
|
| https://www.nku.edu/~weirk/ir/melian.html
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Well, exactly.
|
| Some of the replies I get are childish and ridiculous.
| The US control land almost up to the Chinese coast bit
| China is the bully for finally being able to assert a few
| claims in the South China Sea... how far can hypocrisy go
|
| As for the neighbours' input, we'll ask Mexico, Cuba, and
| South America...
| adolph wrote:
| > There is no right and wrong, just being weak or being
| strong.
|
| Just six comments deep from random coastal volcano and we
| are already at the Nietzschian ubermensch, that escalated
| quickly!
|
| In the larger picture, let us all consider the logical
| fallacy of _tu quoque_. A counter-claim that "you do it
| too" does not refute the original claim.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
| [deleted]
| drblastoff wrote:
| You're conveniently ignoring a couple thousand years
| where China bullied its neighbors relentlessly.
| scheme271 wrote:
| It might be really high value if it gives Norway claims to much
| more area and a larger exclusive economic zone in the Atlantic.
| bell-cot wrote:
| _Maybe_. If the peak of an active volcano or few actually
| counts for your EEZ. If the peak doesn 't blow up or get
| washed away before it's been there long enough to count.
| IANAL. If/how/when EEZ's change, when a sliver of new land
| pops up, strikes me as a pretty rare & special legal
| specialty.
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| meanwhile sea is gaining space with global warming
| Arnt wrote:
| Nor in/near Norway.
|
| Greenland is melting, which changes the earth's centre of
| gravity, which in turn leads the area around Greenland (all the
| way to Norway) to rise. Iceland, Baffin Island and some other
| islands near Greenland rise decisively more than the ocean,
| mainland Norway perhaps a bit more. This volcano near Jan Mayen
| might get a 10m boost over the next 200 years.
| hanoz wrote:
| How does the earth's centre of gravity changing cause land to
| rise?
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(page generated 2023-01-18 23:00 UTC)