[HN Gopher] Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise ne...
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Ask HN: With recent layoffs, how would you advise new grads
entering the market?
The tech sector underwent rapid manpower growth, and recently,
rapid reduction [1,2,3]. What advice do you have for new grads in
CS/EE fields looking for jobs? For example, I am finishing my PhD
in AI-related work this spring. Colleagues I've talked to in
several companies have told me about frozen hiring. Is this true in
your experience? Is it better to get _any_ job than keep searching
for the job I 'd be most suited for? Should I reach directly to
managers in different teams? Who are the best people/kinds of firms
to reach out to when the industry is slowing hiring? [1]:
https://layoffs.fyi/ [2]:
https://news.stanford.edu/2022/12/05/explains-recent-tech-layoffs-
worried/ [3]: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/05/tech-jobs-hit-the-
hardest-by-layoffs-last-year-report.html
Author : hazrmard
Score : 206 points
Date : 2023-01-18 15:41 UTC (7 hours ago)
| justapassenger wrote:
| Maybe unpopular opinion, but if you can, look for companies that
| don't hire too much remotely.
|
| 2 reasons: 1. Less competition. 2. (More important one IMO) For
| people starting their career, in person interactions are
| extremely valuable. You'll learn a ton from hallway/lunch
| conversations. In your first few years, likely even more than
| from your job. YMMV, of course, but all those chats shaped me as
| an engineer.
| baby wrote:
| The problem with that is that you move to a new city/country
| and POP your offer gets revoked or you get laid off a few days
| after you moved.
| hijinks wrote:
| I entered the job market right after the dotcom crash. It was A
| LOT worse then.
|
| My advice is learn to interview. What I mean by that is if you
| don't know something don't just say. No sure. Ask if you can try
| to walk your way through it with the person and if you get stuck
| or don't know something ask the interviewer for help. What that
| shows is you want to learn
| breck wrote:
| There will always be high growth things.
|
| Look for something new and different that could change everything
| (https://scroll.pub/ https://breckyunits.com/oneTextarea.html
| https://longbets.org/793/)
| micro_cam wrote:
| I've been in the ML/data space for 20 years and went through the
| 2008 cycle early in my career. I'm not hiring at the moment but
| am always happy to review resumes and give career advice as part
| of networking so feel free to ping me.
|
| Reaching out to managers at big cos won't get you much. They are
| getting a ton of twitter/etc candidates and have stricter hiring
| policies and rubrics to prevent nepotism and favoritism. If you
| can network and ask for referrals through your friends /
| professors that can work better. Or reaching out to early stage
| startup cofounders can work really well.
|
| ML/AI is less frozen then some other areas so that is good. Most
| really competitive new PHDs will have either a couple of
| internships, strong academic contributions or previous
| engineering experience demonstrating strong coding ability.
|
| You should also consider post docs or academic engineer postings.
| The grant cycle insulates these a bit from the economic cycle and
| they can be a good place to gather some experience while you ride
| out the cycle.
|
| And definitely consider very early stage start ups. A startup
| that just raised and has 2 years of runway is probably one of the
| safest places to be at the moment as they are still focused on
| growth. A lot of great companies proved themselves as startups
| during the 2008 cycle and grew rapidly after. Networking can mean
| a lot more here as early stage founders often literally just hire
| their friends or people they get along with without a ton of
| process.
| rumdonut wrote:
| Somewhat unrelated but a remark of yours was interesting to me.
| You mentioned PhDs sometimes have previous engineering
| experience; did you find it common for ML PhDs to have waited a
| few years before entering a program? I'm exploring doing the
| same but had thought the ship had sailed, now that I'm in
| industry.
| micro_cam wrote:
| Not super common but its reasonably frequent for someone to
| go to industry for 2-3 years and then go for a masters/phd.
|
| Those candidates tend to be great as they are up on industry
| practices/technology like source control and databases where
| as some phds can have only academic coding experience. And
| they tend to have studied something they really knew they
| were interested in and really been the driver on their thesis
| project vs just contributing to their advisors research.
|
| You also see great phds who didn't wait but really took
| ownership of their project, used source control, figured out
| distributed computing, contributed to open source,
| scraped/built their own datasets, understood the real world
| implications and hacked on side projects to develop coding
| skills.
|
| And you see some who just completed a theoretical +
| computational project their advisor suggested on an existing
| dataset with the minimal amount of coding needed and little
| thought to implications/applications.
| ptero wrote:
| I would give different advice to someone getting a Bachelors vs
| someone getting a PhD.
|
| For BS CS/EE (or any engineering field): do not overthink the
| "recession is coming" news. US employers always want young
| engineers, as they consider them energetic, willing to learn and
| work for less salary than late career staff. Look up and polish
| the in demand skills. Brush up on the basics (Python, databases,
| git) at least to the extent of being able to solve "one step up
| from fizzbuzz" problems. And apply. You might get less generous
| terms and no sign-up bonus, but you are almost certain to still
| land something that you can use as a springboard 2-3 years later.
|
| For PhD in AI: I would apply to good companies only and consider
| deferring graduation for a year if your fishing turns up nothing.
| This requires both your mental readiness and your advisor's
| physical/financial one, but in general your advisor should be
| thrilled to have you work for him another year for a relative
| pittance of a graduate stipend. It should not come to this (the
| market is not dead), but I would personally take it easy and
| focus on the job search for another year in grad school over
| taking some soul-sucking job at a company no one has heard of.
|
| My 2c. And good luck!
| gitfan86 wrote:
| I agree and would add that if you have any interest in SRE or
| DevOps those jobs are generally in high demand and hard to fill
| karmasimida wrote:
| Doing a post-doc maybe?
|
| To survive bad job market is not to enter a bad job market.
|
| If you have to, then, due to supply and demand, you will have to
| adjust to
|
| 1. lower your expectation 2. work on area that is not your
| supposed expertise domain 3. other unfavorable conditions
| yellowapple wrote:
| > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd
| be most suited for?
|
| When you're first starting out? Yes, absolutely. The job for
| which you'd be most suited (however that's defined) will in all
| likelihood toss your resume into the nearest trash can without
| some actual work experience on it.
|
| > Who are the best people/kinds of firms to reach out to when the
| industry is slowing hiring?
|
| The more boring-looking, the better. You say you're about to be a
| PhD in AI? Find some small/medium business with leadership whose
| eyes gloss over at the mere mention of "neural nets" or "deep
| learning" or what have you, get into some boring technician or
| analyst role, and start using those fancy AI chops to blow their
| expectations for the role out of the water. If they don't rapidly
| promote you with the newfound success they're seeing, then you're
| in a much better position to pursue something that actually
| corresponds to your degree, with a resume item along the lines of
| "used machine learning to classify inventory by predicted
| velocity and rearrange inventory locations, improving warehouse
| picking throughput by 115%" or somesuch.
| findthewords wrote:
| Ignore it.
| chriskanan wrote:
| What kind of work do you want to do? I assume since you got a PhD
| in AI, you would like to be an AI scientist who does AI research
| in industry. I think a lot of the posts are aimed more at
| software engineers, but it may not be applicable if you are
| hoping to keep doing AI work in industry at the PhD/researcher
| level.
|
| That said, a lot of the big companies have frozen hiring in AI
| along with a lot of unicorns who focused on AI but haven't been
| profitable. Some of my own PhD students who are graduating soon
| are worried, but they have been able to get interviews at non-
| FAANG companies for doing AI research.
|
| There are a lot of faculty openings for AI, and while they are
| competitive, it isn't nearly as competitive in the past if you
| have been productive during your PhD. You would have to wait
| until Fall 2023 to apply for them, so you would have to do a
| postdoc or something like that for a year.
|
| I think money is going to flow into AI start-ups doing foundation
| models and generative AI, so if your AI-related work is in that
| space, you could be well positioned. It would be potentially
| risky if you are not a US citizen due to visa issues.
| passwordoops wrote:
| Lots of great advice here already.
|
| The one thing I'd add is look beyond "tech sector" companies.
| Your skill set can be translated and refocused for any number of
| industries that will thrive in the coming years (e.g. food
| producers, energy, natural resources, healthcare, etc).
|
| One way to do this is if your institute has a co-op program,
| reach out to the head and express interest in industries that
| could be interesting to get into. They'll likely be happy to help
| and connect a Top AI Expert with companies the university already
| works with. Of course you'll be doing more applicative work than
| theoretical
| lowbloodsugar wrote:
| My guess would be you are going for an ML role, possibly Data
| Scientist rather than Software Engineer? I think that is a very
| different market than the one being described by all the software
| engineers replying here.
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| [dead]
| WhiteBlueSkies wrote:
| How to lie in a resume to cover up a big gap?
| gabereiser wrote:
| Don't see layoffs as an indicator of industry health. These are
| corrections, not melt downs. Go apply and do interviews, there
| are plenty of companies looking for talent.
| dpflan wrote:
| Indeed, as an example, look at the stock prices for the last 4
| years (20-22 bubble/where-else-does-money-go-when-all-work-is-
| remote), or even just startup valuations and round raises.
| Perhaps a useful question is about open positions at these
| companies doing layoffs and how many SMBs still exist for
| hiring, and are actively.
| time_to_smile wrote:
| I like the optimism but I suspect we're still in the early
| stages of this process. There's lots of bubble to unwind here,
| and this mess hasn't even started to untangle.
|
| I recently came across this quote from PG in one of his earlier
| essays [0] describing the early days of the dotcom bust
| regarding yahoo. Sounds _very_ similar to the situation we 're
| in now:
|
| > It was not just our price to earnings ratio that was bogus.
| Half our earnings were too. Not in the Enron way, of course.
| The finance guys seemed scrupulous about reporting earnings.
| What made our earnings bogus was that Yahoo was, in effect, the
| center of a Ponzi scheme. Investors looked at Yahoo's earnings
| and said to themselves, here is proof that Internet companies
| can make money. So they invested in new startups that promised
| to be the next Yahoo. And as soon as these startups got the
| money, what did they do with it? Buy millions of dollars worth
| of advertising on Yahoo to promote their brand. Result: a
| capital investment in a startup this quarter shows up as Yahoo
| earnings next quarter--stimulating another round of investments
| in startups.
|
| 0. http://paulgraham.com/bubble.html
| nemo44x wrote:
| We are nothing like that situation. This was a common problem
| in the .com bust days in that the money was often just being
| passed around. Double Click had a similar situation where
| they had a good business but many of their customers didn't.
| But they (and other solid business) did make it through the
| purge and went on to be big successes.
|
| Today we have an ecosystem that is far more diverse and what
| I'd call "real". Yes, there's probably quite a few over
| valued dogs out there but there are a lot of businesses that
| are legit creating revenue streams and growing well past 20%,
| 30%, etc. This is why I believe the parent is right in that
| we are in a harsh correction and not a meltdown.
| time_to_smile wrote:
| > We are nothing like that situation
|
| Agreed because this time the asset bubble extends well
| beyond tech. This is a much larger problem and will take
| much longer to unwind, cutting much deeper than that.
| nemo44x wrote:
| I understand the sentiment and there's certainly a
| logical and valid case for it. But I disagree with it and
| here's why:
|
| 1) The secular trend in falling interest rates and "low"
| interest rates will continue longer term. Raising rates
| rapidly has been disruptive but it also gives some
| breathing room and the ability to slowly lower rates
| again, which will be needed to stimulate demand again.
| Lower interest rates obviously impact asset prices as
| borrowing becomes cheaper so you can borrow more.
|
| 2) 40-year fixed rate mortgages will be a think soon.
| This will increase many asset prices and allow people to
| continue to participate in buying real estate and
| generating wealth over time. This is a massive priority
| to the government because home owners are one of the most
| valuable things a government can have as they generate
| property taxes and give people skin in the game which
| means continued support of the regime. This impacts real
| estate assets because the monthly payment is lower which
| means you can pay more for things using cheaper money.
|
| 3) The rapid inflation we saw had nothing to do with low
| interest rates, at least not on their own. It was 100%
| because of the pandemic and how we reacted to it. Lots of
| liquid money was pumped into the system and this is the
| important part - it was liquid. Also, our entire supply
| line and logistics structure was optimized for a certain
| existence and the pandemic disrupted all of that.
| Suddenly money was being spent on different things and it
| has created all sort of supply and demand problems. This
| is beginning to smooth out and by 2025 I expect the
| effects of the pandemic on inflation will be gone. This
| means we can resume the secular trend of generally
| lowering interest rates long term.
| akomtu wrote:
| I like your optimism about 2025. Tension around china,
| russia, north korea is rapidly increasing and by the end
| of the decade I'd expect a bigger war there. US will have
| to print another pile of money and then face a choice:
| let the economy sink in the inflation or join the war.
| The dust will settle by 2055.
| time_to_smile wrote:
| As someone who entered the work force in the shadow of the dotcom
| bust, I think the biggest piece of advice is that people who have
| only lived during the time of the "Great Bubble" don't have
| advice much to give you.
|
| Entering the work force now or in the next few years, a new grad
| will very likely have an easier time navigating the job market
| than people who have spent nearly a decade working for bubble-
| frenzied, VC backed companies.
|
| In the years following the dotcom bust I new tons of software
| folks desperately trying to reconfigure their careers. It's not
| hard for a fresh grad to change course, most people don't end up
| working in a career that is directly related to their major.
|
| Entering the work force will be harder and harder but new grads
| will have less expectations and bad habits they have to overcome
| to find an occupation that works for them (they also won't have
| no-longer-reasonable comp expectations).
| indymike wrote:
| US DOL (look at JOLTS reports for more detail) statistics do not
| bear out the hypothesis that tech jobs are hard to get (demand is
| still very close to 2021, which was the record). There is a lot
| of evidence to support that layoffs are coming mostly from pure
| "Tech Companies", while the rest of the business world is
| continuing to hire. 94% of companies are saying they will add
| headcount in 2023...
|
| ... So my advice is to look at non-tech companies. Reality is
| that most companies really have become "tech companies", they
| don't make software or hardware, but have physical products and
| services -- and often are very technology dependent for
| operatiions.
| citilife wrote:
| Stick to your rates.
|
| They likely fired people not performing, they'll rehire "cheap"
| new grads. Make sure you get what you feel your worth.
| dman wrote:
| If anyone is looking, hit me up using contact details in my hn
| profile. We are a small stealth startup building a data analysis
| environment and actively hiring.
| topkai22 wrote:
| As a new grad I don't think you need to do much different. At my
| Megacorp the college hire budget is separate from everything
| else. Even during the strictest hiring freeze college hiring
| continued.
|
| I would advise shifting expectations a bit, it's likely offers
| will still be good but not quite as lucrative as last year.
|
| As for accepting any job- just because you've accepted a job does
| not mean you can't keep interviewing (in the US at least). Even
| starting at a company doesn't mean you can't keep interviewing. I
| ran a college hire onboarding program a few years back. Of the 20
| people we had , 3 had new jobs within 3 months of hire. We
| weren't happy about it, but they got legitimately better offers
| and we couldn't match.
|
| So, maybe say yes to a "safety job."
|
| Once you start, keep your expenses low, although you don't need
| to live like a pauper. Living with a roommate (or SO), picking
| less expensive housing, limiting bar/club attendance, and driving
| a less expensive car really adds up.
|
| That all being said, my impression is that the AI market remains
| one of the strongest in the tech sector for "real" practitioners.
| I think you'll be ok.
| liquid_stranger wrote:
| > Of the 20 people we had, 3 had new jobs within 3 months of
| hire.
|
| I am coming up on month 3 of my new job and not liking the team
| and leadership. I can tell it will only get worse.
|
| I really want to leave and luckily have the opportunity to
| close the loop on all my current projects.
|
| Should I just make it quick and send an email to manager
| tomorrow that I feel it's not a good fit and Friday is my last
| day? Make it quick and easy before I get more assignments and
| waste more time.
|
| I have no job lined up but 9 years of experience and at least a
| year in savings.
| topkai22 wrote:
| Do not quit your job without at least a written offer. It is
| 100% an issue for resume reviewers, hiring managers and
| interviewers. I have seen plenty of candidates passed over
| for exactly this reason.
|
| My brother quit his (admittedly bad) job in February of 2020.
| He didn't find work beyond Amazon warehouse temp till 2021.
| He blew through a ton of savings and is still recovering.
| While don't believe and sincerely hope we are looking at
| anything like 2020 again, it is impossible to know and it's
| way better to pay it safe.
|
| Your job search will be easier while still employed and less
| stressful.
|
| Don't worry about getting assigned more assignments. You can
| leave those behind when you take a new job. Seriously, after
| a few years you'll have seen plenty of people come and go,
| sometimes suddenly. Organizations will find a way to fill the
| gap (or try aren't a very good organization).
| olddustytrail wrote:
| No. Your assignments are irrelevant; that handover is what
| your notice period is for.
|
| Line up a new job first. Might not be as easy as you think.
|
| If you want a break in between tell your new job you can't
| start for a couple of months.
| henryfjordan wrote:
| Everyone else is giving advice to stick it out until you get
| a new job, and that's probably good advice, but if you really
| can't stand it then leave soon. Things will probably work
| out. It's not all doom and gloom out there.
|
| Like another responder, I left my job in Feb 2020 without
| something lined up. There were bumps, one company I was in
| the hiring pipeline with laid off their whole recruiting
| dept. It took a few months more than I was expecting but I
| had a better paying job by summer.
|
| My current company had steep layoffs late last year but has
| some openings already. I suspect many companies will be the
| same, with positions opening up again.
| syntaxing wrote:
| MechE so I don't fit your CS/EE ask exactly. I posted this
| before, tech is a small percentage of engineering. There's plenty
| of good engineering jobs out there. Sure, the pay and benefits
| won't be as good as tech but it's still fulfilling in its own
| way. And you'll still make a relatively cushy wage where you
| should be able to thrive, not just survive.
| Gene_Parmesan wrote:
| I'll be interested to see if these layoffs do eventually hit
| technical workers in non-big-tech sectors. Are these layoffs
| simply the chickens of large scale "blitzscaling" coming home
| to roost? Or are they a leading indicator of a wider trend?
|
| I haven't seen any reduction in demand for devs in my region,
| but that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't coming.
| zetazzed wrote:
| Maybe unpopular advice, but I do find that companies over-index
| on your current role. (FWIW I have hired lots of new and
| experienced PhDs in ML but am not hiring now.) So if you take a
| "placeholder" job, I suggest trying to find one that sounds at
| least as prestigious as your current position. So, changing your
| resume from "Fresh MIT PhD grad on the market" to "Researcher in
| boring lab of dying old industrial company" will be a bad move.
| If your passion is AI, it's a good idea to go for a placeholder
| job to be in AI/ML as well. Startups can be good unless they are
| obviously ridiculous or terrible ones - managers are used to
| seeing unknown startup companies and fresh grads, and you'll
| probably be forced to do lots of productive coding. But a bad
| research lab can be really bad - trailing edge research, bad
| code, not enough resources to do something meaningful, publishing
| in low-tier venues that nobody reads, ugh....
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| Fresh MIT grad has a lot of options; the name and alumni orgs
| alone will open doors.
|
| OP is, nearest I can tell, getting a BS from Big State U, and
| that's a wayyyyy harder game than someone with a Ph.D and
| pedigree.
| effnorwood wrote:
| [dead]
| c7b wrote:
| > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd
| be most suited for?
|
| Will depend a lot on the individual situation, but as a broad
| blanket advice I'd generally say, yes. Especially if you come
| from an undergrad/master's. There are very few of those really
| big tectonic shifts in life like fully entering the workforce for
| the first time, and a lot of it has more to do with having _some_
| job (at least somewhat relevant to what you learnt) than having
| the _perfect_ job (which, frankly, you can 't really know what
| that would be for you at that stage anyway). I don't see much
| good coming from delaying this just for the sake of waiting for
| the perfect match.
|
| That being said, if you have other reasons for delaying, like
| wanting to try a startup, that might indeed be a good reason to
| not start in a job. Or if you're a PhD graduate, you've had sort
| of a semi-job experience already, and you might have ways to stay
| a bit longer in academia doing meaningful things (post-doc,...),
| while looking for something that really fits with the highly
| specialized profile you've already built at that point.
| spacemadness wrote:
| Do PhDs in AI really have much to fear? VC capital is flowing
| into AI. I'm no expert on the state of AI employment but if I was
| to pick a hot area that's safe for now that would be my bet.
| adam_arthur wrote:
| Curious on others perspective here.
|
| Agreed AI will be the "hot" area going forward, but how are
| labor dynamics? e.g. supply of talent vs number of openings
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| I graduated in 09.
|
| * It's easier to get a job if you already have a job. It's okay
| to take a shitty job as long as you don't get complacent about
| it.
|
| * Gaps get stressed by job seekers in advice requests because it
| is a question that can make you look bad. However, if you are
| actually at an interview, they are fishing for bad dealbreakers
| not minor imperfections. Don't worry to much about it.
|
| * If you get hired via a staffing agency, you could be cut at any
| time arbitrarily. I once got laid off 24 hours after signing a
| contract renewal. Keep as good an emergency fund as you can
| manage.
|
| * Unemployment benefits are not charity, it is insurance that you
| pay for out of your wage. Dont let pride or shame convince you
| not to use it.
|
| * Network aggressively and be likeable. You never know when that
| linkedin connection from a shit job 3 years ago will throw you a
| bone. I know everybody on HN really likes their leetcode but if
| you have an inside reference, the interview is reduced to just a
| vibe check.
|
| * There are grades of recruiters and higher grade jobs tend to be
| assigned to higher grade recruiters. The guys sending you
| irrelevant callcenter gigs on the other side of the country can
| be ignored as they are just playing the numbers game too, but if
| a recruiter advertises something decent to you the least you
| should do is reply with a "not right now but thanks". This
| results in a higher quality recruiter keeping you in their
| rolodex for later.
|
| * Hire a professional resume writer for you. This goes not just
| for noobs, but also people who have been at the same gig for
| awhile and have not been through the hiring game recently.
|
| * Cold applications are just a numbers game. Managers get 1000
| applications for 1 seat. Yes, tune your resume/letter for the
| job, but don't spend too much time on it.
|
| * If you are offboarding, just plagiarize Nixon's resignation
| letter if you can't write anything nice at all. In a fiery
| departure, your best case scenario is that nothing happens and
| your worst case is that somebody who likes you will no longer
| want to be your reference or whatever. Your first one will always
| feel bad, but people coming and going is just part of life and
| doesnt have to be a big deal.
|
| https://www.archives.gov/historical-docs/todays-doc/?dod-dat...
| fernandopj wrote:
| > Network aggressively and be likeable. You never know when
| that linkedin connection from a shit job 3 years ago will throw
| you a bone. I know everybody on HN really likes their leetcode
| but if you have an inside reference, the interview is reduced
| to just a vibe check.
|
| ++1 this. Couldn't have said better myself. I went more than 10
| years not having to apply anywhere, switching jobs just by
| referral - interviews felt like friendly meetings. Only broke
| that streak when interviewing for a job in another country.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Maybe I'm just not that good at networking, but I haven't
| found this to be true. Networking can let you bypass the very
| top of the funnel: Where you're pissing your resume into the
| void. And that's significant! But I've never "networked"
| myself into a job. Your standard Software Engineer peers in
| other companies just don't tend to have the power to hire.
| They may know which jobs are real, which ones are good, and
| might be able to help coach / steer you the right way, but
| I've never seen a case where I got an actual job offer from a
| peer without at least still having to go through the "phone
| screen + whiteboard hazing" grind.
|
| The best I've ever got out of networking was, "Thanks for re-
| connecting! You should apply for job #41190, since I
| particularly know that hiring manager is really motivated to
| hire! Prepare for questions A, B, and maybe C. Happy to do a
| mock interview. Good luck!" And I got the job, so _that 's
| great!_ But, have realistic expectations. You're not going to
| bypass the queue and get an offer letter just because you're
| good friends with one of that company's Senior Software
| Engineers.
|
| EDIT: Maybe it's different at the ultra-high level, like "VP
| of Engineering." I have no idea, never been up to that level
| and don't have peers there. But I can't imagine that a "VP of
| Engineering" candidate has to do phone screens, and grind at
| the whiteboard, and have to deal with recruiters and
| ghosting. Maybe they don't even have to apply and get
| traditionally interviewed like us commoners. Who knows? Any
| VPs of Engineering on HN care to chime in and describe how
| hiring works at your level?
| vehemenz wrote:
| We could be talking about different things, but networking
| at conferences and professional events has been productive
| for me. I'm talking real-life socializing here, not
| LinkedIn. You can size people up quickly and determine
| whether they are competent/sane without a lengthy interview
| process. It's less about having friends in high places than
| sharing war stories and establishing a rapport with like-
| minded people in an informal, semi-work-related context.
| You're not really trying to find a job or employees, but
| you might meet enough people and your contacts eventually
| become an organic part of the hiring or job-hunting
| process.
| vehemenz wrote:
| I entered the job market in '08 and agree overall, but I will
| add a few caveats from my personal experience:
|
| > If you get hired via a staffing agency, you could be cut at
| any time arbitrarily. I once got laid off 24 hours after
| signing a contract renewal. Keep as good an emergency fund as
| you can manage.
|
| Assuming you are a useful employee, being a temp or a
| contractor can save you from being laid off because you are
| paid less, don't have the same benefits package, and are
| usually paid from a separate, more liquid general fund. If you
| believe in the power of personal anecdote, this saved my job
| once.
|
| > Cold applications are just a numbers game. Managers get 1000
| applications for 1 seat. Yes, tune your resume/letter for the
| job, but don't spend too much time on it.
|
| I don't think this advice applies to everyone. If you apply for
| jobs that are a good match for your skills, or you are simply
| exceptional, your base success rate will be higher in the first
| place, and you will get more ROI from a tuned resume and a
| serious cover letter. Just be mindful of where you are putting
| your effort, and don't be afraid to change up your strategy if
| it's not working.
| jstx1 wrote:
| It's the usual - be as employable as you can, search for a job,
| apply, interview, get hired. I don't think that you need to do
| anything special just because the market is worse. When you start
| applying you'll find out how difficult the market is for you
| specifically (given your education, location, field etc), and you
| can adjust your expectations from there if you need to.
|
| Maybe startups specifically look worse than other companies right
| now? But I never got the appeal of startups anyway (more likely
| lower pay, less stability, more likely to have poor work life
| balance and have to deal with inexperienced management).
| robgibbons wrote:
| Build a network. LinkedIn may be cringey at times, but it's vital
| to build a network. If you do things right, at some point, you
| will be hounded by recruiters. And on that note...
|
| Connect with recruiters, lots of them. They can mean the
| difference between never hearing back after a cold application,
| and getting your resume in front of the hiring manager.
| keepquestioning wrote:
| Join Stripe
| crawfordcomeaux wrote:
| I would advise them to immediately learn what their universal
| human needs are and how to effectively meet them. Learn to let go
| of what isn't needed and learn learn how to meet needs through
| moderation. Learn how to ask for things to be given to you
| because so much is locked up behind money and it's real people
| who can let it out for free, but they almost never do it without
| asking unless it's to their benefit.
|
| This will help keep cost of living way down so you don't have to
| give a shit of you're tossed on your ass without any notice or
| severance. Stop pretending the business landscape was made with
| your wellbeing in mind; if that were the case, your onboarding
| package (or interview?) would involve making sure you're aware of
| your needs and how to meet them. Any business unable to produce
| such a document is not designed with your wellbeing in mind.
| Ocerge wrote:
| We'll see where this all goes, but for now it seems like most
| companies are just reverting to where they were in 2020-2021.
| It's not a complete catastrophe (yet), but the open pipeline into
| FAANG is pretty well closed. You can still find jobs, but you
| might not be wildly overpaid like you would have been last year.
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| Some other folks apparently of the same age have already replied,
| but as another person who got a CS degree and graduated into the
| post-dotcom meltdown, I'll add my 2 cents.
|
| Yeah, it'll be tough. Your first "real" job will likely be the
| most difficult job search of your life.
|
| Feel free to try your luck at the same company multiple times.
| Now, don't be annoying - don't spam them with your resume every
| day. But the first job I ended up getting was with a company I
| contacted again a few months after hearing they didn't have
| anything for me.
|
| I think the issue of take any job vs keep looking for the right
| job depends on your circumstances. After college I moved back
| home with my parents, took the summer off and slowly job
| searched, rent-free, while also enjoying my last summer of
| freedom. Some folks won't have that luxury.
|
| I'd also recommend considering being flexible with your location.
| Sure, maybe you want to live in City A, and maybe you can one
| day, but if there are more jobs in City B (or remote work that
| will pay the bills in some places, but not City A), it won't kill
| you to live somewhere else for a couple of years and then try to
| make the move to where you really want to be.
| mathgladiator wrote:
| The key thing is to teach people to be able to ride the storms.
| Don't get caught with your pants down by having discipline to
| save.
| AviationAtom wrote:
| Will echo this. Stashing away for a rainy day is wise in any
| industry and for everyone. Live below your means and save away.
| _moof wrote:
| I have the same advice that I have during booms: get a job and
| save money. The only difference is that it will take longer to
| find work and it might not be your dream job. That's ok. Lives
| are long. New opportunities will come your way.
| dokem wrote:
| Search, apply, interview. See what you can get. You're
| overthinking it.
| the_snooze wrote:
| Use every "unfair advantage" you have. I graduated during the
| height of the Great Recession, and I weathered it using the fact
| that I was already involved in undergraduate research and that
| I'm a US citizen.
|
| My research supervisor had funding for someone who can work on
| ITAR-restricted projects, and I was the perfect fit for that. I
| made money earning my graduate degree. Afterwards, I used my
| research experience and connections to land a full-time job at an
| FFRDC [1], which only hires US citizens. I learned a lot from my
| group there, and it set me up for even more future opportunities.
| Those "unfair advantages" made life much easier for me during a
| tough market.
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_funded_research_and_...
| alanfranz wrote:
| Maybe you won't get your dream job immediately. But I doubt
| you'll be unemployed.
|
| Try not living in an high-cost area or above your means, you can
| coast for a couple of years in some random corporate environment,
| then you could apply for some FAANG when positions reopen.
|
| But they may not be closed for your role.
| AviationAtom wrote:
| Don't pigeon hole yourself into only skills or techniques too
| niche, but also make sure you learn skills unique to you within
| the organization. Essentially make yourself irreplaceable but
| also ensure you stay marketable.
|
| Beyond that always keep looking at what's out there and network,
| network, network.
|
| Starting out is hard, but after you put a bit of time in your
| resume will begin to speak for itself. For what your resume can't
| do for you that is what your contacts within desired companies
| are for.
|
| Also, contributing to open source projects is great material for
| the resume!
| notatoad wrote:
| layoffs don't necessarily mean a hiring freeze. some of these
| companies are definitely taking the opportunity to lay off more
| expensive staff and re-hire cheap new grads
| Bayko wrote:
| By spring there will be a lot of changes. The budgets will get
| realigned and stuff. So best advice would be to stop worrying and
| keep applying as generic as that advice sounds. Oh and if you are
| on it nuke /cscareerquestions
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| [dead]
| steviesands wrote:
| Can you elaborate on budgets realigned? Wouldn't that have
| happened in Q4 for the new year?
| mooreds wrote:
| I like the advice here:
| https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/advice-for-junior-softwar...
| (didn't write it, but it jives with my experience).
|
| I also wrote something here on how to stand out:
| https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2022/09/19/ways-to-stand-...
|
| Finally, you ask:
|
| > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd
| be most suited for?
|
| That depends on your financial situation and emotional runway,
| but my advice would be that in general it is far easier to get a
| job once you have a job. I wouldn't advise taking a job digging
| ditches (unless you need the $$$), but if you can find something
| that is related to your chosen profession, isn't clearly toxic,
| and is a full time paying job, take it.
|
| If the company is good, you'll have the ability to grow
| internally and you'll be a known quantity.
|
| If the company is not great, you'll at least have some experience
| to put on your resume. You may even be able to help improve the
| company. At worst you'll have a salary and title and be able to
| job search from there.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| That is excellent advice, and not one single hint of jargon!
|
| Practicality, in my experience, has always been of tremendous
| importance.
|
| Also, for me, I tended to take low-paying jobs, if the
| technology/company interested me, because I wanted to learn.
|
| Learning is difficult; especially learning to ship. Feasts of
| Humble Pie, Egg-On-Face, and Crow, with side orders of stress
| and overwork. A surprising number of folks don't actually want
| to do it.
|
| In my experience, it has always been worth it; even the
| "negative learning" experiences.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Learning to ship and get shit done is the most valuable
| lesson, or one of the most valuable ones, to learn in your
| first full time job. If you cannot learn that, look for a job
| where you can before in years you are a senior, but in real
| experience still junior.
| steve76 wrote:
| [dead]
| jwestbury wrote:
| > in general it is far easier to get a job once you have a job.
|
| Furthermore, it's easier to negotiate, and you'll feel less
| desperate (and thus hopefully less stressed) about the process
| as a whole. Prospective employers know you can walk away if you
| already have a job -- but they also know you aren't likely to
| walk away if you don't.
| eptcyka wrote:
| I'd say, having experiences at bad workplaces can still be
| valuable. This isn't to say one should seek out toxic
| colleagues and horrible working conditions, but knowing what
| you do not want is valuable too. And having bad workplaces
| early on is cheaper than having bad workplaces later in life.
| All in all, I'm trying to emphasize that a job in the field you
| want will almost always be beneficial when you're starting out.
| roughly wrote:
| Broadly I agree with this, with the caveat that, especially
| as a junior developer/new grad, it can be both really
| difficult to spot that a workspace is toxic and really
| damaging to work in one over time.
|
| As far into my career as I am at this point, I've both a
| finely honed radar and zero tolerance for toxic bullshit, but
| as a new developer, it's a whole lot harder to have both the
| self-confidence and self-awareness to recognize that the
| reception you're getting isn't because you're an unqualified
| idiot, it's because Sr. Developer Jim's dad was an asshole
| and Engineering Manager Bob doesn't know how to or have the
| confidence in his role to rein in his Sr. Developer from
| berating the new grad for things that new grads do until
| emotionally balanced mentors teach them not to. I have good
| friends who've spent a lot of time in therapy undoing what
| toxic workplaces did during vulnerable years.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Being a junior without prior experience at a shitty company
| is a enormous risk. Being a senior means you can judge the
| shittyness, as junior this first experience will influence
| you for a good part of your future career, be it for the
| better or worse.
|
| My advice, look for some decent, experienced people in
| _any_ job you have, but even more so in your first. Build a
| trustfull relationship with at least one of those folks and
| get as much advice, mentoring and context out of them as
| possible.
| roughly wrote:
| Yes, absolutely agree - I was considering updating with
| something similar. Finding a mentor, either within or
| outside the company, who's opinions you trust and who can
| say "no, you're not reading that situation wrong, Jim's
| behaving badly" or "yes, your instincts are correct, this
| is the right way to do this," or even "yes, Bob's
| incompetent, but in this case, he's right, because of
| this" is absolutely invaluable. It's invaluable for
| anyone, but especially in that situation, it can make the
| difference between a learning opportunity and a trauma.
| whstl wrote:
| Agree. I would add that someone like this is important
| even for more senior, and even leadership positions, all
| the way up to C-Level. Whoever had a brush with a report
| or a peer that behaved badly knows that sometimes you
| need a second opinion not to be biased and to not take it
| personally.
|
| The one thing you don't want to do is to talk about these
| things with a report or with a co-worker, and I've seen
| too many managers making this mistake with me.
| msrenee wrote:
| Yep. Wouldn't trade the self-confidence and lack of
| tolerance for BS I developed from working for a psycho for
| much. I just wish it hadn't taken therapy and
| antidepressants to get back to a place where I could be
| comfortable in myself and my abilities again.
|
| I could be getting paid more, but my current workplace has
| only a couple completely worthless human beings. The
| supervisor knows who they are and what they're like and
| steps right in if there's a conflict. That's worth at least
| an extra $20k/year in my book. For my part, I try to
| advocate for less-established coworkers who are getting hit
| with the same crap I did from those individuals. Keeps the
| couple jerks from running off potential talent who will
| make my job more pleasant in the long run.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| Definitely agree with this. To learn good leadership you have
| to see bad leadership; to create a genuinely good environment
| you have to see what happens to make a bad one, etc. etc.
| whstl wrote:
| One particular thing I've noticed in my neck of the woods is
| younger Junior devs only staying at junior level jobs for a
| set period. They stay only one year, almost to the day,
| despite good performance and good fit.
|
| That happened to a report of mine once, obviously with a
| previous mutual agreement, but some recruiters mentioned that
| trend to me as well.
|
| I think having a set date to leave is healthy, especially at
| this point in someone's career. You just do your job and
| you're rewarded with money and experience. You shield
| yourself from toxicity in a way, since don't want to depend
| on the job for having "best friends". Also you don't play
| office politics since you know it's ephemeral.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| Just to jump in on this - I got canned in the last big
| recession and while not a new grad, I took the next (contract)
| job that came up, at much lower pay, and over the next year
| doubled my take home from the original job.
|
| Two lessons
|
| 1. Spend your lunchtimes job hunting. Treat it like a job
|
| 2. Move around as a new grad. Think of it like dating, you have
| to kiss a few frogs just to get an idea of what is out there.
|
| (Most people who stay in one job really mean lots of different
| jobs inside one giant conglomerate)
|
| So don't be afraid to move around. And focus on the code.
| Ignore the management bullshit, the meetings the agile talk.
| Focus on code.
| mooreds wrote:
| > 2. Move around as a new grad. Think of it like dating, you
| have to kiss a few frogs just to get an idea of what is out
| there.
|
| This is related, but I got my start in a small consulting
| company and think it is a great place for anyone to start.
| Small is anything from 10 to 100. The one with 100 employees
| will have more process and stability, but your impact at a 10
| person company will be larger (and possibly easier to get
| hired by). Pick your poison.
|
| You'll get lots of experience across domains and
| technologies, because it is a consulting company.
|
| What you write and do will actually matter, because it is
| small.
|
| And, of course, at a consulting company, as a developer, what
| you do is directly tied to revenue for the company, since
| they typically sell hours (or dev expertise, bundled in
| project scopes, which are measured internally in hours or
| hour equivalents).
|
| I wrote some advice on how to approach these companies here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34253168
|
| If they're good and have been around for a while, they'll
| know how to ride out the ups and downs that are coming
| (because they actually probably had ups and downs even during
| the good times; that's the nature of consulting).
| ghaff wrote:
| >(Most people who stay in one job really mean lots of
| different jobs inside one giant conglomerate)
|
| It doesn't even need to be a giant conglomerate. Roles
| evolve. Products/projects/priorities/technologies change.
| Certainly at the two 10K, give or take, employee companies
| I've worked for over ten years, I've done a lot of different
| things even though I went by some variant of the same title
| the whole time.
| ska wrote:
| > Move around as a new grad.
|
| ... but not too much/too soon. Best to understand what you
| can/should learn and try and achieve that before looking for
| a change.
| sh4rks wrote:
| Great advice. The only thing that's missing is to grind
| leetcode as hard as you can. As much as HN and Reddit hates
| leetcode, most companies still use it in some form. Getting
| good at leetcode-style questions will allow you to get through
| the first few interview stages more consistently. Then, in the
| later interview stages, you can show off your personal projects
| and open source contributions.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| I've worked at multiple of the FAANG. Everyone acknowledges
| they study for the interview. You may occasionally get
| someone trying to make out they could pass without study but
| even then they acknowledged they studied. This isn't
| something to be arrogant about. It's a process designed to
| filter out those who'd refuse to study to get the job. You
| have to study. Doesn't matter if you have a PhD and write
| books on CS. Study. Don't be a dick about this fact. Complain
| in HN about a process that filters out those who can't/don't
| study if you want but if you're going for the job study. This
| is rather straightforward to the point the recruiter taking
| you through the pipeline will explain this in detail.
| smugma wrote:
| I graduated 20+ years ago from a top CS school, and this
| was the norm then as well, whether you wanted a job at a
| big company like Microsoft, a consulting company, or a hot
| tech startup.
|
| The good news for me was that even though I had terrible
| grades, I knew how to code a Knight's Tour or 8 Queens,
| work through some algorithm that appears to be N^2 but has
| a clever N solution, or if someone asked me about manholes,
| I could say "that's a stupid question, here's the default
| answer, and here's why I think it's a stupid question."
|
| I think I got 9 job offers from 10 interviews with a <3.0
| GPA (before the dotcom crash).
|
| In short, studying for the test helped with the SAT's and
| it helped get my first job. When I applied to a FANG years
| later, there was not leetcode, just different design
| questions or basic things like making sure I could reverse
| a linked list or implement substr without an off by one
| error.
| kweingar wrote:
| Study doesn't need to be intense. I got my current job with
| about 6 hours of leetcode and no CS degree (although I did
| take a small handful of CS courses)
| heyoni wrote:
| What difficulty did you manage with 6 hours of study?
| Aaronstotle wrote:
| I'll add to this, I've had 5 jobs within 5 years of graduating.
|
| The first 2 jumps were due to compensation, was able to get a
| nice raise each time.
|
| The third job was a good fit, however the role evolved into
| something I didn't like as much and didn't fit my career goals.
|
| I took the fourth job to try something new, quickly found out
| the role had nothing I enjoyed doing.
|
| All of the experiences were valuable in terms of experience:
| different industries, meeting different people, and learning
| what I like to do.
| adra wrote:
| An average tenure of 1 year in a job is a red hot flag I'd
| almost immediately reject. Life's too short to spend a month
| wasted training an employee that's just going to jump again.
| It's my number 1 no-hire criteria. Good on you for convincing
| so many hiring managers that you're worth the risk though I
| suppose?
| fishtoaster wrote:
| Eh, 5-in-5 is a yellow flag for me, maybe depending on what
| the longest tenure was. It's probably something I'd bring
| up. The explanation Aaronstotle gave for leaving each place
| would be plenty reasonable for me.
| hiq wrote:
| What's nice with this is that it automatically fixes
| itself: once you've jumped enough that no new employer
| wants you, you (have to) stay at the same one long again to
| be a good candidate again, assuming you don't get fired.
|
| Though after reading HN long enough, I have to question
| whether you ever end up in this relatively bad situation,
| especially if every jump was basically a promotion.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I agree that 5-in-5 as a candidates total experience and
| applying to my company to become a 6th? That's pretty much
| not going to happen.
|
| Someone who has stayed at a place or two for a couple years
| and been promoted there and _then_ had a bunch of 1-year
| stints? I'm more open to hearing the explanation.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| I was recently asked "Is it better to get any job than keep
| searching for the job I'd be most suited for?" by a laid off
| Visa holder.
|
| This is even more straightforward. Yes it is.
|
| I know many who are being hit by layoffs. The situation sucks.
| I don't think there's any advantage to downplaying this right
| now whether in your own mind or through advice to others.
| There's a huge number of tech workers laid off simultaneously
| and very bluntly you should look for any job that supports your
| Visa as the priority.
| lowbloodsugar wrote:
| At this point there is no way any software company could
| justify, legally, hiring someone on an H1B. There are some
| 40k layoffs in last few months and certainly a large number
| of those are US citizens. Any company claiming that they
| can't find a US citizen with the right skills is lying.
| hiq wrote:
| > There are some 40k layoffs in last few months and
| certainly a large number of those are US citizens.
|
| That doesn't matter if they all find a new job very
| quickly, what's more relevant is the unemployment rate. Is
| it increasing?
|
| At least when it comes to the overall unemployment rate, it
| seems to be very low when I see articles like this:
| https://www.businessinsider.com/december-jobs-report-
| labor-m...
|
| I didn't find IT-specific stats to be fully sure (well it's
| somewhere on https://www.bls.gov if you're so inclined),
| but I'd be surprised if the IT industry were much worse (if
| at all) than the average over all industries.
| JCM9 wrote:
| The Visa situation is very bad , but technically for better
| or worse it's how the system was designed to work. H1Bs are
| meant to supplement the domestic supply of certain skills
| to meet demand. If demand drops (or as is happening with
| now supply increases) then it becomes hard to justify why
| one needs to hire an H1B over say someone already eligible
| for employment. Companies always game the system but it's
| going to very hard to suggest one can't find any SDEs at
| this point.
|
| On the above I would correct that it's not "US Citizen" but
| someone with full employment eligibility, which could be
| for example a Green Card holder.
| hef19898 wrote:
| As much as I tend to "defend" Europes social systems,
| when it comes to visas there are some similarities. True,
| once you are eligible for unemployment benefits in
| Germany, you can extend you residence title for that
| period. And then, being herw long enough even more. In
| case you are _not_ eligible yet, well, things are
| different. I have quite a few collegues that might face
| that prospect sooner than they like, and of course the
| employer is _not_ talking about this, nor are my co-
| workers necessarily aware of that. Kind of makes me angry
| with my emoloyer, in my book you _do not_ screw around
| with peoples lives like that.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| One thing that would be quite reasonable is a longer Visa
| grace period after losing a job. I don't see what harm
| this would do. The Visa grace period is currently 50%
| shorter than a tourist visa to give context.
| r4vik wrote:
| they've always been lying, the can't find someone with the
| skills is just a hoop to jump through.
| phone8675309 wrote:
| The lie is that they can't find someone with the skills
|
| The truth is that they can't find someone with the skills
| who will work like a pittance and who will worry about
| being deported if they leave/get fired.
| janef0421 wrote:
| That would obviously depend on how much you want to maintain
| your visa.
| alexpetralia wrote:
| And perhaps, implicit in the above reply, write about what you
| have learned!
| Scubabear68 wrote:
| Good advice from the pragmatic engineer article. Particularly
| the advice to "aim wide". It is so tempting to put all your
| effort into that one perfect job. But in down times, you want a
| steady paycheck and to start getting practical experience under
| your belt.
|
| The only thing I would add is to always try to shoot for a
| company where technology is seen as an asset and not just a
| cost center. Traditionally, that was software companies and
| places like Wall Street. Now that net is wider, but beware jobs
| with titles like "Programmer II" or "Programmer/Analyst",
| indicators of companies where IT is a cost center and you get
| stuck as a minor cog in a minor wheel.
| btown wrote:
| To the last point, it's important not to find yourself in the
| IT-as-a-cost-center trap if you're being asked to spend 90%
| of your time working on {IT tickets, business analysis,
| customizing-Salesforce, creating-old-school-java-beans-all-
| day} work, so much so that you can't write about software
| engineering with features you're proud to have worked on, in
| the bullets on your resume.
|
| On the hiring side, I've found quite a bit of anecdotal
| success finding really talented junior engineers who have
| fallen into this trap, where a close read of the resume and
| cover letters shows a passion that's not covered by the
| actual keywords on the resume. I'll often stretch our
| requirements to give interviews to people I have a good gut
| feeling about - "diamonds in the rough" so to speak. But it
| takes a lot of time and focus to not simply screen out a
| resume based on these negative keywords - and given that
| recruiting teams at a lot of companies have been reduced as
| well, many won't have the time to do this well, if they ever
| did to begin with.
|
| As a candidate you can absolutely mitigate this with open-
| source contributions, if you have time. But it can be hard to
| find that focus, time, and mentorship/community, especially
| if the day-job environment is toxic.
| steve76 wrote:
| [dead]
| heliophobicdude wrote:
| There are so many smaller firms struggling to find talent!
|
| Message hiring managers and recruiters on LinkedIn that say
| "hiring" in their bio. This should get the ball rolling a little
| bit faster.
|
| Good luck and cheers!
| jamiequint wrote:
| Honestly, as a PhD in anything AI-related you're not going to
| have any trouble right now. AI is the one area where everyone is
| looking for talent right now, even in a down market.
| mullingitover wrote:
| I graduated in one of the worst possible times to get a CS
| degree: August 2001.
|
| I had a college job that paid the bills but wasn't anything
| related to tech. I looked for jobs but the job market in
| Portland, Oregon was the Sahara desert. There wasn't an entry
| level job in sight, and if you didn't have a decade of experience
| you could forget about getting a foot in the door.
|
| Eventually I took a customer service job at a call center that
| did work for Adobe, and after a year there I switched to one of
| their other contract customers, Disney. I did tech support for
| Disney's Toontown, one thing led to another, and Disney ended up
| hiring me direct and moving me down to LA.
|
| I stayed at Disney far too long in a junior position because I
| had no confidence in my ability to get a better job, the
| experience of being shut out of the market for years after
| graduating broke me. Eventually I got laid off from Disney, and
| what followed was all the best years of my career because it
| forced me to shop my skills around more.
|
| If I had to do it all over again, I would have immediately taken
| that tech support job, and when I made it to my first real
| engineer job I would have jumped after two years if I wasn't
| promoted. I would've kept jumping every 2-3 years. Like a lot of
| people there I felt a loyalty to the company that was 100% one-
| sided.
|
| tl;dr get _something, anything_ in your field as soon as you can,
| and promote yourself to another position as soon as you can and
| keep doing it. Only stay in a place if you have immediate and
| ongoing career growth.
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| Only real one is to adjust your expectations. That does not mean
| getting _any_ job, but do not sneer on the offers from companies
| tier below what you'd consider before or lower compensation than
| what tiktok programmers brag about.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| My advice? Realize that the tech sector is not made entirely of
| engineers. There's marketing, finance, etc. Just because the
| sector is shrinking across the board doesn't mean there's not a
| demand for tech-edu'ed talent.
| abeppu wrote:
| I left school in spring 2008. Setting aside how to search and
| what to pick, a thing I didn't understand at the time was how to
| think about the offer I received:
|
| - on the one hand, I was in no position to negotiate the offers I
| received
|
| - on the other hand, the modest (commensurate with my lack of
| experience) equity component in my compensation package was
| calculated based on current (low) prices. It didn't seem
| important at the time, but when the market picked back up, this
| seemed really fortunate.
|
| - I joined a team of people who, having seen their unvested
| equity take recent hit, were less than exuberant in their outlook
| about the near term. I did not realize: their problems were not
| my problems.
|
| If you do land a job at a company which can survive and even
| grow, now could be an great time to start your career.
| maerF0x0 wrote:
| If you have life aspirations to do a Masters/PhD degree, now
| might be the time.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| The wider economy or market is completely irrelevant to you. Stop
| paying attention to that nonsense and concentrate on your own
| job, career, life etc.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| [flagged]
| kypro wrote:
| If you're a new grad then presumably you're optimising for
| experience, not salary. I think it will be harder to find a good
| job for while, but it shouldn't be impossible to find any old job
| which will provide some relevant industry experience.
|
| Late 2020 to earlier 2021 was nuts for tech jobs. Companies were
| hiring people who were massively unqualified just because they
| needed someone. During that time I was getting calls from
| recruiters weekly practically begging me to quit my job for some
| new opportunity they were recruiting for and unable to fill. Imo
| there are a lot of devs out there right now who only got hired
| because the market during 2020-2021. I worry a little for those
| guys because they were punching way above their weight to begin
| with and I think they'll probably struggle to find something as
| good should they get laid off.
|
| The other people who might struggle are those looking for jobs
| specifically in the tech industry or tech startups. As someone
| looking for work right now I have noticed there are fewer jobs
| from tech companies out there, but there's still plenty of tech
| jobs in industries like travel, finance, and retail. Everyone
| needs tech workers these days so a tech industry slow down isn't
| necessarily the end of the world for someone with tech skills.
| unregistereddev wrote:
| There are a lot of tech jobs in manufacturing and in logistics
| as well. I strongly agree that while the tech sector may have
| contracted, there are still plenty of tech jobs available.
| geocrasher wrote:
| Focus. Focus. Focus.
|
| Focus on being the best version of yourself. Be passionate. Stand
| out not by being what they're looking for, stand out by being
| what they _didn 't even know_ they were looking for until they
| found you.
|
| Focus on solving problems, not just being a warm body in a seat.
| Companies need problems solved, not seats filled. Identify the
| issue they are trying to solve before you even show up, and then
| make it clear you're the person to solve it.
|
| Focus on being human. If you're not the most personable person
| (not everyone is, and that's fine) then spend time to make sure
| they know that you aren't their average applicant.
|
| And if your prospective employer says "In 100 words or less, tell
| us what makes you different from the rest!" for the love of all
| that is recruiting, _do not just paste in your cover letter_. I
| 've disqualified SO many applicants without even looking at their
| resume or cover letter because they couldn't bother to follow the
| most basic direction.
| alisztha wrote:
| Layoffs are happening, but, at the same time, the world is
| realizinng the impact of AI. With a PhD in a related field I
| think you can be employable for the foreseeable future. It's a
| challenging time to get hired, so you will need to bring your A
| game. I'd advise two things:
|
| 1. Build a portfolio of projects. Companies like to see that
| you're hands-on and problem-solving oriented. 2. Invest on your
| personal brand (via a website, LinkedIn or other social media).
| This helps put your name and what you do out there, so hiring
| managers can find you.
|
| With those things at hand, you can make compelling applications
| and get noticed. I don't see a problem with reaching to managers
| directly, especially if you make clear how you can provide value.
|
| About getting any job, it depends how much different it is from
| where you want to be in 5 or 10 years and what your immediate
| needs are. If you need the money, then you can go for it - any
| job will provide you learnings. But don't deviate too much from
| the future you want.
| anthomtb wrote:
| Hiring freezes are not really freezes. It is more like, "try
| extra hard to justify more headcount." Companies will always have
| some need for specialized skills and knowledge.
|
| Since you are a high achiever in an in-demand field, you should
| still have good leverage during the job search. I would hold out
| for a role or company which you believe will suit your skill set.
|
| I would not, under any circumstances, hold out for a "perfect"
| fit. It is unlikely to exist and if the company/recruiter is
| making it seem perfect they are almost certainly lying to you. A
| former colleague of mine was burned by this not long ago.
| odyssey7 wrote:
| If you can't find what you're looking for right away, can any of
| your research collaborators buy you more time by keeping you on
| or adding you to their projects for a little while?
| purpleblue wrote:
| This is a numbers game.
|
| 1) Apply everywhere, literally in the hundreds. Different cities,
| different states, etc.
|
| 2) Make sure you are prepared. Do hundreds of Leetcode questions
| at least to the medium level. Do lots of systems design questions
| as well. The fact of life is that you need to show you can do
| coding questions and your competitors will all be at the top of
| their game here. If you don't match them, why exactly would you
| be a better candidate than them?
| gamesbrainiac wrote:
| I know that there are loads of people giving advice here that
| haven't been in a situation where they had almost no options when
| it came to getting a job when they graduated. I have been in a
| similar situation to you, and here are some of the things that
| I'd advise you to do.
|
| 1. Minimise your costs. If you can live with your relatives, do
| so.
|
| 2. If you cannot find a job, work on an open source project that
| is close to a field that you are interested in. Make sure that
| you do not have gaps in your resume that you cannot explain. This
| also allows you to keep your skills fresh and purpose to your
| day.
|
| 3. Invest in finishing the blind 75. These are set of interview
| questions that if you can understand, and master, you will be
| able to ace pretty much any technical interview.
|
| 4. Make sure you also are prepared for system design questions.
| There are many books on the matter. Although SDIs can be quite
| subjective, it is good to have an understanding of what you can
| do.
|
| 5. Do not limit yourself to your town/city/area. Apply for any
| and all remote jobs that apply to you.
| twblalock wrote:
| I wouldn't give different advice than I would have last year.
| It's harder to find a job now, but the approach has not changed.
|
| Most jobs are found through personal connections. Getting
| referrals from those people is a lot better than submitting your
| resume into hundreds of web forms, along with all the other
| applicants.
|
| New grads have fewer connections than people who are established
| in their careers, but they may have contacts from prior work
| experience, internships, classmates, and friends.
|
| Really the most useful advice would be to people who have not yet
| graduated: make sure you do some internships and build those
| connections while you are in school!
| marmetio wrote:
| If you're a US citizen, look into small companies that do
| research for the military. There's a growing amount of work for a
| PhD in AI CS/EE.
| [deleted]
| k3fernan wrote:
| My advice is to run a real process and track every application.
| Expect around 100 applications to 25 screens to 10 interview
| loops to 1 offer. Best case.
|
| I would say directly reaching out to hiring managers and
| recruiters is your path forward, but they get a lot of inbound,
| so the odds of a cold outreach getting read is low unless you
| have an intro.
| kaycebasques wrote:
| I graduated in 2011. IIRC it was a somewhat tough market but also
| I had not focused enough throughout college on building
| employable skills. I had studied history. The age-old vicious
| cycle I encountered was that you need experience to get a job,
| but it seemed like you needed a job to get experience. I found a
| loophole by taking technical writing contracts to build my
| experience and portfolio. At first they were very small and I
| worked for nothing and asked the clients to take a shot on me
| because I am very hungry to succeed. After a year of that a
| family friend got my foot in the door at the startup he worked
| at. The connection got my foot in the door but the skill-building
| and portfolio-building I had been doing over the last year sealed
| the deal. I mention this not to massage my ego but to suggest
| that they're both important so your best bet is to spend proper
| time/energy on both. Also during my year of contracts I took a
| lot of CS classes at community college. After 3 years at the
| startup Google poached me and I'm now going on 7 years at Goog.
| stocknoob wrote:
| The long-term meta strategy is stepping back and realize that as
| long as you are dependent on a job for survival you'll be at the
| whims of your employer, the market, the economy.
|
| Build a raft instead of constantly treading water, and pursue FI.
|
| If you like swimming, great! Doesn't mean you shouldn't have a
| raft right next to you. Swim for pleasure, not survival.
| yellow_lead wrote:
| Aside from technologies and all the other great advice in this
| thread, become a product focused engineer. Learn the product
| domain well and understand how your work impacts the business.
| autodev1 wrote:
| I'd tell them to forget about current trends and look at long
| term trends based on a reliable source of data: Bureau of Labor
| Statistics.
|
| "Software Developers, Quality Assurance Analysts, and Testers"
|
| Job Outlook, 2021-31 25% (Much faster than average)
|
| https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
|
| "Information Security Analysts"
|
| Job Outlook, 2021-31 35% (Much faster than average)
|
| https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
| Callmenorm wrote:
| The tech industry is still hiring, it's just FAANG that are
| contracting because they were the ones who had the money to
| massively overhire during the pandemic. Everyone else is still
| trying to get good hires. So, get a job that helps you and then
| start looking for the next job once you are building your basic
| skills.
| ryandrake wrote:
| I've been through the dotcom slaughter of 2000-2002 as a new grad
| (undergrad) and the comparatively small slowdown of 2008 (grad
| school new grad). Get ready to hit the Submit button... a lot.
| The stories of "getting three job offers after four interviews at
| five companies" are no longer reality. My
| application:interview:offer ratio has always varied from 50:5:1
| to 100:10:1, and I would expect something like that or worse for
| the next ~12 months or however long it takes for tech CEOs to
| stop cargo culting each other's panic. Unlike some advice you're
| likely going to get in this thread, I'd highly recommend
| shotgunning your resume to as many viable tech companies as you
| can, and even looking at line-of-business programming at non-tech
| companies. Now is not really the time to be picky, especially if
| you're on your own and have rent/bills to pay or support your
| family.
|
| I ended up close to insolvent during the 2008 recession, and I
| bit the bullet and took a terrible job just to get by. Be willing
| to swallow your pride and do the same if that's what it takes.
| That little voice in the back of your head that says "Well I just
| graduated from Stanford! Surely I can do better than this!"
| Ignore it for now.
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| I'm... that's a crazy ratio. Mine sits around that 5:4:3 ratio.
| I've rarely even had to apply for a position -- usually just
| got headhunted. I started about 13 years ago, and even my first
| job at a big tech company (LinkedIn), I was scouted. I don't
| even have a CS degree.
|
| I'm curious what your discipline is in?
| [deleted]
| ryandrake wrote:
| Congratulations on your lucky career timing! Like many in
| HN's demographic, if you started 13 years ago (2010) or less,
| then you've so far never had to work in a bear market.
| Actually your timing is astonishing, entering the industry
| right after the last downturn. Well done :)
|
| In an extended bear market / downturn, throw that ratio out
| the window. Unless you're literally John Carmack or Ken
| Thompson, you're not going to just have headhunters begging
| you to work at their companies. In fact, even fishing
| expeditions from recruiters are going to quickly die out.
| You'll have to apply--a lot! You'll have to struggle to stay
| on your recruiters' radars. You'll have to follow-up, pinging
| for updates, "let me know how I can help move this forward"
| and so on. Things aren't just going to fall into your lap.
| This will be the case until we flip back to a bull market and
| hiring returns to "normal."
|
| BTW my discipline is embedded / mobile development and then
| project management. Not that I think it matters--
| macroeconomic effects tend to hit uniformly across
| engineering disciplines.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| I started my career in 2008 in the UK, just as the GFC was
| hitting, with no degree. Yet, I had a ratio like 5:5:4.
|
| I assumed the UK had it worse than the USA, but maybe not?
| collyw wrote:
| You must have been in the industry for the same time as me.
| Your ratio of interviews to offers is kind of encouraging, and
| at the same time depressing - I have just changed jobs and got
| a number of rejections. What bothers me most is the time wasted
| on throwaway "technical challenges" where the reasons for
| rejection are mostly outside of the specification, and a
| perfect solution would be in the order of a weeks work, not the
| few hours that they said it should take. I have a full time job
| and limited free time to put into these things.
| e_i_pi_2 wrote:
| I think this is the big advice - it may be harder to get hired
| at a "top" tech company, but there's still so many hiring,
| seems more like a shift from larger to smaller companies -
| decentralization of the workforce rather than a reduction.
|
| I don't have data to back this up though, just my general
| feeling and seems like what happened in the past
| ghaff wrote:
| I was incredibly lucky during dot bomb because of one good
| connection that I reached out to first thing when I was laid
| off and had lunch with. In the month it took them to decide
| they wanted to (and could afford to) hire me, I didn't get so
| much as a nibble from anyone else.
|
| I know a fair number of people who dropped off the map and I
| assume the careers of many never got back on track.
|
| So, while I'd be even more emphatic if the OP were a newly
| minted undergrad, I'd definitely recommend either extending
| academia a bit if practical or just trying to find _something_.
| notch656c wrote:
| Great recession grad. 1000:100:10:1
|
| app:phone_screen:interview:offer
|
| In general divide the first number by 10 if you have at least
| 12 months post grad professional experience. If you have a
| shiny high GPA diploma from a top school but no intern or any
| experience whatsoever change last two numbers to zero.
| giantg2 wrote:
| At the end of the great recession for me. 250:3:1:1
|
| The biggest thing that helped me was having some Android
| apps. Another was that I had some COBOL knowledge. I also
| lowballed my salary request, which might have helped me get
| the job , but I'm still paying for that today.
| abadger9 wrote:
| yep this was my ratio as well
| nullspace wrote:
| Great recession grad - similar numbers. That experience has
| really scarred me till today, especially because I kept being
| told how valuable software engineers are, and how good I
| personally was in this field.
|
| Today, I'm simply grateful to have a fantastic job, and
| strive to live below my means assuming that things can go
| back at the snap of someone's finger.
|
| In terms of practical advise for a new grad, there are tons
| of startups and enterpreneurs doing really interesting work.
| They need good programmers but can't afford to pay as much.
| This sort of place can be a great place to kickstart your
| career, at least for a few years, till the broader picture
| gets better.
| rqtwteye wrote:
| In 2003 it went to 100:1:0:0 for me for more than a year. It
| was a rude awakening after thinking that I was a high demand
| pro during the .COM bubble. Definitely taught me to hold onto
| my money.
| notch656c wrote:
| Yep. I'm a fucking miser. My entry into the work world was
| 10+% unemployment and brutal cut throat for minimum wage.
| The idea I'll be cut at any moment and be jobless for years
| is burned into my mind so money is guarded preciously.
|
| Also I'll never forget just how rude and pretentious
| recruiters were during that time with their new found
| power. You see the true colors in such times.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "The idea I'll be cut at any moment and be jobless for
| years"
|
| I've felt this way for a few years now.
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| > The stories of "getting three job offers after four
| interviews at five companies" are no longer reality.
|
| Yikes. I have been in Software Engineering for about 11 years
| and never had it any other way and even then interviewing and
| managing applications was stressful. Having to apply to 10s,
| 100s of companies would destroy me. I am very, very scared of
| my company going under and me having to compete in this market.
| I hope it gets better soon and people stop doing the "learn to
| code to get rich quick" routine.
| skipants wrote:
| You're not alone. Our experiences are similar. I'm not sure
| if that's comforting or not.
|
| The one saving grace for me is I do have enough savings to
| get me through a depression. I know that's not a luxury for
| everyone, though.
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| How long is the average depression though? I still have my
| parents for a while, but they will be dead in 10 years...
| hef19898 wrote:
| I'm not im software, but I graduated in 2007. During my
| studies, Germany was still kind of Europe's sick man. Upon
| graduation, I hit lucky timing, and everyone who graduated
| around the same time knew it. Then came 2008. And since
| 2013/14, well, it was all roses. There is a whole generation
| out there thay has no idea what economic down turns feel and
| look like, and they might be in for a very rude awakening.
| nyanpasu64 wrote:
| If I'm unemployed and dropped out from college due to stress
| and burnout (still ongoing, compounded by a psychologically-
| unsafe living environment), and would have to fill out
| hundreds of job applications to find a job, and doing so is
| unmanageable and beyond my capabilities, is it easier to not
| find a job and stop trying to stay alive?
| manimino wrote:
| It's not really that binary, though - job or death. There's
| an awful lot of space in between the two.
|
| There's this conveyer-belt view of life: we are supposed to
| go directly from birth to school to job to kids to bigger
| job to death. Some people really do live that. Most people
| don't.
|
| But we're expected to fit that mold, so anyone who's
| stepped off the belt will usually keep quiet about it. So
| it's easy to start believing that the only valid life is
| some linear path.
|
| Still. Unemployment is stress and uncertainty. But bad job
| markets aren't forever. Good luck with finding a job, or
| managing to enjoy the interim.
|
| Nyanpasu.
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| Stopping trying to stay alive sounds pretty neat unless you
| really enjoy life, but you have to keep in mind that you
| can only succeed with that once.
|
| I'd recommend trying to lobotomize yourself with a few
| psychopharmaca prescribed by a psychiatrist first. What's
| the worst that could happen?
|
| You probably haven't tried everything yet and you can
| always try to stop trying to stay alive at a later point.
|
| You should probably call your countries crisis hotline. You
| can ask google how to commit suicide to get the number.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Connections, connections, connections. Reach out to every
| friend, old coworker, etc. especially those that are in
| management now. Catch up and get a pulse for how their
| company situation is right now--if they're weathering the
| downturn well, going through layoffs, etc.
|
| If you do get laid off you can reach out to these folks
| immediately and get recommendations or even just feedback on
| your resume. The sooner you start doing this the better,
| don't wait to be called into a private meeting with HR and
| your boss to start this process. The harsh reality is that
| for senior positions you're either going to spend a LOT of
| time smashing submit on hundreds and thousands of
| applications while hearing _nothing_ back, or you're going to
| tap your connections and have a job lined up relatively
| quickly. New grads have it a lot easier in the open market
| IMHO.
| thinking4real wrote:
| "Reach out to every friend, old coworker, etc. especially
| those that are in management now."
|
| This advice always cracks me up.
|
| Most people don't have deep networks of people who can hook
| them up with a senior level engineering position. Like,
| even the people I know who are quite well connected don't
| really have this option.
|
| Sure, everyone has a buddy who'd love to pay them half for
| twice the work. But we're talking relatable fields and jobs
| that are worth it and that's just not realistic for
| majority.
|
| Alternatively, if people had social networks with people
| who have potentials roles for them, who wouldn't already
| think in the social media era "oh yeah, i'll ask the people
| I know who have an in instead of going to random strangers"
| ghaff wrote:
| >This advice always cracks me up.
|
| And, yet, all three jobs I've had in the last 25 years
| (including one in 2001), I landed because I knew someone
| senior at the company pretty well. Not strictly
| engineering but tech and tech ecosystem companies. Was
| that lucky and atypical? Perhaps. But those were my
| experiences.
|
| The last job I got through "normal" channels was from a
| campus interview at grad school.
| 015a wrote:
| > The harsh reality is that for senior positions you're
| either going to spend a LOT of time smashing submit on
| hundreds and thousands of applications while hearing
| _nothing_ back, or you're going to tap your connections and
| have a job lined up relatively quickly. New grads have it a
| lot easier in the open market IMHO.
|
| I disagree with this take entirely.
|
| * Senior engineering positions, at least looking at the
| layoffs over the past year, trend to be the least impacted
| by layoffs. Empirically this appears to be the case, and it
| makes logical sense: they may be more expensive, but if
| that person/role is capable of doing more with less then
| its worth that investment versus training up mid-
| levels/juniors, dealing with inexperience, etc. Of course,
| ideally companies want both, but the industry has matured
| well past the point of "just keep the cheapest people"; we
| know better nowadays versus previous recessions.
|
| In other words; during a layoff, there's less liquidity in
| the senior engineering talent pool than in other pools.
|
| * In a similar vein; when companies have openings in this
| recession; they want Senior people. Either in the title, or
| just a bias when interviewing candidates; seniority
| matters. I've seen this in my own small-city startup
| community; startups with three or four junior/mid-level
| engineers, put up a posting for Senior talent, and it stays
| up for _months_ (I 'm looking at some right now which date
| back to October). Great companies, great culture, great
| compensation (not FANG, but); just very low liquidity in
| that talent pool to meet the demand.
|
| The one caveat; Senior engineers who come from a FANG-
| salary background may have issues if they enter interviews
| with that expectation. But there's a lot of numbers between
| entry-level compensation and FANG-compensation.
|
| * Why do companies hire junior/mid-level talent? Its the
| most liquid talent pool. Cheaper. _Maybe_ you make the
| argument that junior talent has more loyalty /staying power
| because they can grow with the company. Etc. One issue with
| this recession is: All of these companies still have a LOT
| of money. This isn't, for most companies (especially FANG),
| an issue of "we don't have the money to meet payroll so
| need to cut"; its an issue of spending the past two years
| blowing cheap money on as many people as they could,
| realizing that they got a lot of low-tier talent, managing
| all that growth is HARD, and in some cases there just isn't
| enough high-impact work to justify some roles. This
| recession legitimately isn't leading to layoffs which are
| _just_ about cost-cutting; its as much if not more about
| reorganization, refocusing managerial resources on high-
| impact projects, cutting bloat, cutting moonshots, etc.
| That changes the firing /hiring dynamic; its not
| necessarily about saving money on hires, its about
| reindexing on what makes a Good Hire.
|
| That makes being a junior engineer very hard; after all,
| the best way to convince a hiring manager that you're a
| great hire is to say "Yeah I've worked on something similar
| to this problem before, let me tell you about it." Junior
| engineers don't have that.
|
| > you're going to tap your connections and have a job lined
| up relatively quickly.
|
| But this is absolutely, undeniably true. Its universally,
| physically, fundamentally impossible to overstate how much
| impact connections have in getting jobs during a flat or
| declining job market.
|
| To the point of the original post, and to junior engineers:
| Stop worrying so much about actual technical skills.
| Obviously, be competent. But: Your #1 priority needs to be
| networking and socialization. Go to tech meetups. Offer to
| give presentations. Join local young professionals
| associations. Make friends and get drinks with them.
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| I got the great job at my current small-medium sized
| company through connections. 6 of us together switched
| there from the same company. Yet it's a not a big company,
| it could die and be replaced anytime. Previously I have
| worked at too big to fail (government) behemots which is
| indeed calming.
|
| I also have a good friend who is already department head in
| my countries biggest bank. I keep telling me he can always
| get me a job when I can't fall asleep.
| Our_Benefactors wrote:
| > New grads have it a lot easier in the open market IMHO.
|
| Maybe the top 10% of new CS grads have it easy, by virtue
| of having easier access to university -> big tech hiring
| pipelines for junior engineers.
|
| But there's no comparison to the ease of being a senior and
| having job offers flood in to your LinkedIn on a weekly
| basis. Getting a new job becomes a function of simply
| contacting the past 5 recruiters and asking for the
| interview.
| ryandrake wrote:
| > there's no comparison to the ease of being a senior and
| having job offers flood in to your LinkedIn on a weekly
| basis.
|
| Splitting hairs a little here, but I've got > 25 years of
| experience and have not once, ever, received a job offer
| through LinkedIn, let alone weekly. I've had recruiters
| showing varying levels of interest contact me there, but
| never "Hi, person I've never met, great resume! Here is
| your job offer letter, we're offering $XXX,XXX
| compensation..."
|
| Senior people do get contacted by recruiters, but they're
| fishing, and all of these contacts are extremely early in
| the pipeline. We have to go through the whole process,
| just like junior folks. The endless phone screens, the
| whiteboard hazing, the ghosting, the salary negotiation.
| Being senior and experienced doesn't let you bypass it.
| "Networking" doesn't let you bypass it.
|
| I know that's probably what you mean, but the
| simplifying-meme "job offers flooding your inbox" gets
| repeated and I think people get the wrong idea about how
| easy it is.
| Our_Benefactors wrote:
| It lets you bypass the step of "I sent my resume and
| never heard back" which is the reality for many junior
| candidates. There's a huge difference between getting to
| go through the motions as often as you please versus not
| being given the time of day.
| notch656c wrote:
| I've had it happen once. I'm still shocked to this day it
| happened. The whole experience was surreal. They paid me
| 6 figures, offered the job out of the blue basically on
| linked in, I started like a week later and then I was
| assigned basically nothing. I did basically nothing for a
| 3 month contract and then left. Without pursuing the job,
| without barely doing anything, and then left without any
| real comment.
|
| And we're not talking some fluke small company with no
| controls. This was a fortune 500. The job had no
| particularly interesting requirements so I guess somebody
| just said fill the seat for a few months and I was just
| grabbed. At the time I was doing a lot of international
| wandering so it was a nice easy refueling top up
| stateside.
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| That is a fascinating story; thanks for sharing. I can
| only imagine the ever-increasing disbelief as you went
| along with this.
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| I spent 2 months working for a big insurance company via
| a big 4 consultancy and 3 other devs + me were literally
| sleeping with our heads on the conference room tabe they
| gave to us, 8 hours a day.
|
| It scarred us forever.
| 999900000999 wrote:
| Great advice. This is the worst time job hunting for most of us
| since the tech economy hasn't really cut jobs since 08. 2020
| and 2021 were crazy times, I interviewed with Amazon at least 4
| times, got an interview with FB even. I don't consider myself
| to be a great dev and wound up making 200k per year at a point.
|
| Now it's all coming back down to reality and I'm rapidly re-
| adjusting my expectations. Interviews are getting much much
| harder, I'm getting ghosted after final stages, and it's easy
| to get discouraged. Looking at the news it's not just me
| becoming a crap dev overnight, but the entire tech economy
| looking like crap.
|
| Let's hope it at least stabilizes soon. As is I think I'll have
| to take a massive paycut.
| jerf wrote:
| I have a similar story. Graduated as an undergrad into the
| teeth of the dotcom crash. Took an opportunity to pick up a
| master's degree essentially "for free" because it's not like I
| was going to get a job in that environment. Graduated into
| still a very weak job market.
|
| One of the saddest memories not related to the usual stuff like
| funerals and such is the job fair at the university after
| graduation. I bought a suit. I shouldn't have bothered. (Only
| worn it once more since then!) When I first walked up it looked
| OK; had like 15 booths. But _EVERY_. _SINGLE_. _ONE_. was just
| collecting resumes and telling you they didn 't have any
| openings. Would have preferred to just attend an empty job fair
| or have been told it was cancelled. That was a truly crushing
| half an hour.
|
| Took a relatively crap job after that. It actually wasn't bad
| on a personal level, it wasn't like I hated it, but, no future.
| Obviously a dead end. Crap job. Went to work for a similar crap
| job at a startup after that, which was pretty lucky itself. The
| out-of-work-hours noodling I did led to a real job, a few years
| later.
|
| Do what you need to do. May not even be a programmer job. My
| personal opinion, which shouldn't be taken as anything more
| than that, is that A: the next few years are going to be rough,
| possibly rougher than the dotcom crash but B: in the end,
| programmer is still a good career choice. Companies simply can
| not compete without automation any more. Software will continue
| to eat the world for the forseeable future. I don't expect AI
| or low-code to do much more than peck at the opportunities
| available. (Maybe I'm wrong, but if we do get to the point that
| AI really does successfully replace programmers we have
| essentially hit the singularity and all bets are off.)
|
| Programmers also have had and will continue to have the unusual
| ability that many other disciplines do not have where you can
| continue to learn skills even if you are underemployed. It's
| hard to practice industrial-scale chemical engineering at home
| while you're unemployed, but you can learn Rust, or Terraform,
| or AWS, or source control, or whatever, and even into the teeth
| of an underemployment period you can still be developing. That
| helped me and I recommend putting at least some effort into
| that.
|
| Just don't forget that while learning Rust is more fun, it's
| not putting resumes out there, hitting trade shows, networking,
| etc. That is _way_ less fun and much more emotionally
| expensive, but more likely to lead to even that job that puts
| food on the table.
| zackmorris wrote:
| Came here to say the same thing, I graduated in '99 with an ECE
| degree when movies like Fight Club and The Matrix came out and
| the future was so bright we had to wear shades, right into the
| Dot Bomb of 2000/2001. People might have forgotten or be to
| young today to remember that most tech innovation stopped from
| then until around 2007 when the iPhone came out. Facebook was
| around 2004-5 ish but the PHP ecosystem it was built on was
| anemic until Lumen/Laravel took off after 2011. It's hard to
| get a job as an engineer when all companies were thinking about
| was outsourcing.
|
| Those years created such trauma for me and set me back so far
| financially that I didn't recover or pay off my student loans
| (meaning I had no disposable income whatsoever) until I was 40.
| I can say with confidence that those experiences all but ruined
| my career, and many others in Gen X. We didn't get promoted, or
| trusted to manage others, or even have children. It's like we
| never existed, especially the tail end, the "Elder" Millennials
| like me. All we hear about now is the success of billionaires -
| the Tony Starks of the world, but I'm with the losers - I'm
| Ivan Vanko.
|
| Thankfully the situation today is nothing like the Dot Bomb or
| the Housing Bubble collapsing in 2008. Nobody can find
| employees right now. And with the arrival of AI, even the most
| prescient geeks have absolutely no idea what's going to happen
| in the next decade. The years effectively go 1999,2000...2023
| with 2 lost decades in between. The only innovation has been in
| GPUs, Moore's law effectively halted in 2007 when R&D started
| going to reducing cost and power consumption. That may change
| with RISC-V and the open sourcing/democratization of hardware.
| So for the first time in a _very_ long time, I'm actually
| cautiously optimistic about the future.
|
| To get to the point: I'd recommend rejecting most job hunting
| advice. Stop thinking about what you need to do, or what others
| expect you to do. Remember that being alive and kicking is what
| matters. You can survive on next to nothing. The world doesn't
| come to an end just because you lose your job or run out of
| money.
|
| Instead, picture a business owner's goals. They just want you
| to solve their problem, and hopefully be able to pay you. So
| start with the fundamentals: shows like Mad Men. Learn how to
| listen and communicate. Don't assume that the person you're
| talking with has any more of a clue than you do. They may be
| interviewing 100 people because _none of them emphasize how
| much they are there for their employer_. If you 're solid, and
| dedicated, and show up, that can do more for your career than
| credentials. Just be on the level, is what I'm saying.
|
| One pitfall to watch for is settling. I made the mistake of
| moving furniture for the first 3 years out of school to support
| my struggling shareware business. I came out of that job a
| different person than when I went in. It built my intestinal
| fortitude but destroyed my psyche. But I've fallen back on it
| when I needed money. Donating plasma works too. And stuff like
| Bacon is the Uber of handyman work. It's important to know you
| can do that stuff to subsist, so that you aren't desperate when
| you go to an interview. It's all dating, basically.
| glitchc wrote:
| My advice is to work for the largest company you can get into for
| your first job. The experience, either great or shitty, is capped
| at both ends i.e. corporate structure limits how shitty or great
| it can possibly get.
|
| If the experience is positive, then great, stick around. If not,
| the name of a large company on your resume (ideally at least two
| years), will make it much easier to find your next gig, as large
| companies are easily recognizable for their products and
| branding.
| CabSauce wrote:
| I don't know that I really agree with this (based solely on my
| experiences). I've worked for big, medium and small companies.
| Big companies may tend to lock you into narrow job roles,
| outdated technology, and horrible bureaucracy. With medium and
| smaller companies, you're going to learn a lot more about
| actually getting things done. Likely in broader areas. But it
| does depend on what a person is looking for.
| tflinton wrote:
| > What advice do you have for new grads in CS/EE fields looking
| for jobs? For example, I am finishing my PhD in AI-related work
| this spring. Colleagues I've talked to in several companies have
| told me about frozen hiring. Is this true in your experience?
|
| Yeah most companies are still under hiring freezes, but backfills
| usually aren't frozen.
|
| > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd
| be most suited for?
|
| Try and get a job remotely where you want to land eventually.
| Having some experience that's related to what you want to do will
| bode better than having nothing.
|
| > Should I reach directly to managers in different teams?
|
| If you know them, sure. Networking can be an incredible asset, go
| to meetups or other professional groups and get to know people in
| the industry, even if a manger isn't there employees typically
| are motivated to help you get a job because they may get a
| referral bonus.
|
| > Who are the best people/kinds of firms to reach out to when the
| industry is slowing hiring?
|
| In reality when you hear about large layoffs much of those
| layoffs are companies shedding full time employees and then
| outsourcing any work they needed from them via consulting or
| contract positions. So it stands to reason that perhaps contract
| companies / agencies may be a great place to get some experience.
| Some industries are somewhat immune to recessions like
| healthcare, utilities, government and a small subset of financial
| institutions.
| iceburgcrm wrote:
| As a 20 year vet and someone who entered the market during the
| first crash in 2001. Apply everywhere, give a little extra in
| interviews and be prepared to work in a language you didn't
| expect.
|
| To get my first position involved applying everywhere no matter
| the skillset asked. When I finally landed an interview we had to
| create an application. I created an application an hour after the
| interview was complete emailed it over and that sold me. They
| didn't believe I did this myself so quickly I had to provide some
| of my db scripts. The other candidates were stronger on paper
| (finished a 4 year computer science degree) but none could finish
| or finish as completely as I did.
|
| It turned a little rough. One of the other candidates came in for
| lunch a week after I was hired. The founder and this person
| became friends during the interview process. She literally
| brokedown and cried that day because she wanted the job so badly.
| I'm surprised they didn't hire her just based on culture fit but
| this was a nonprofit with one 6 month contract available and tons
| of challenging problems to tackle.
|
| My advice is to grind it out and pry that first job out however
| you can.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| Lots of good advice. (Which I won't repeat.)
|
| If you choose to graduate, remember, _you 're going to work for
| the rest of your career_. Don't feel bad about taking some time
| for yourself! (Assuming this is the US,) it's going to be nearly
| impossible to take consecutive 2-4 weeks off, or longer, while
| you're employed. Do it now.
|
| Looking for a job also doesn't have to be a grind. Even if you're
| playing the numbers game, you don't need to grind all day
| spamming out applications. Self-education in areas that you think
| you'll need are just as important. Don't feel bad about making
| every weekend a 3 or 4 day weekend.
|
| Also, many people warn against being too selective. This is true.
| It's also important to have standards. When I _really_ needed a
| job, over the past 20 years, I 've turned down: A contracting gig
| where the contract came out of a nolo book (for hiring a
| contractor to do work in your home,) a (cough) job that came with
| a "stipend" that would hardly cover rent, a cryptocurrency gig
| run by a lucky hacker who had a few million dollars in the bank,
| but not enough common sense to have product-market fit... People
| talk about being "entitled." A lot of businesses believe they are
| "entitled" to your labor. Walking away from situations like this
| isn't being "too selective." It's having standards and looking
| out for yourself.
| asow92 wrote:
| Apply to lots of jobs and don't fear rejection. Each process has
| learning opportunities and it's a chance to hone your
| interviewing skills.
| renierbotha wrote:
| In my experience, teams getting laid off are generally (not
| always) experimental, high risk / high reward, horizon 2 type
| bets. Ie not the main function of the company or one of the major
| bets the company needs to succeed for their current strategy.
|
| So one way to avoid being hired into a team like this is to ask a
| many questions centered around the impact of the team.
|
| For example, - "what are some of the main accomplishments this
| team has had in the past?" - "what is the mission & vision of the
| team, and how is it aligned to the business operational plan?" -
| "what will happen to the company if this team fails on its
| biggest bets?"
|
| This is naturally aimed towards bigger companies.
| davidthewatson wrote:
| I've been surrounded by people like you for decades no matter
| which coast I lived on or somewhere in the middle. Employment
| anxiety is an infectious culture, not a sensemaking operation.
| I'd suggest ignoring the cultural imperative and instead just go
| directly for what you want by following a seemingly non-existent
| path through old-fashioned touchpoints that can only be
| discovered by talking to others via beer, coffee, and
| multisyllabic small talk. My experience has been that the best
| gigs come from those birds-of-a-feather experiences and not
| whiteboard stunt monkey meetings. The corporation is just a
| different jungle and I'd suggest you don't really want to star in
| The Corporation anyhow and look for University, R&D labs,
| startups, design studios, etc. There are still some good gigs out
| there; they're just doing what pointy-haired bosses do, trading
| one set of workers for another, 10K at a time. Good luck finding
| your tribe no matter who, what, or where they are!
| collyw wrote:
| I graduated in 2001, the dot com bust, took a year and a half to
| get a job, and that was partially based on a previous degree in
| biology. This advice is based on my experience from 20 years ago,
| so I hope it is still relevant.
|
| I was sending out a lot of CVs treating it more or less as a full
| time job. In the UK at the time the job center would pay for
| postage for applications, though these days paper applications
| are a lot less common.
|
| Places that accepted CVs got a lot lower responses than big
| corporations with their long winded online forms that took a
| couple of hours or more to fill out, with the usual crappy
| questions of "give an example e of when you displayed leadership
| qualities" and the likes. Keep a note of your responses, as after
| a few, it becomes a lot less effort, as you have probably
| answered a similar question in a previous one, and can just copy
| paste with a little adjustment.
|
| Get some interview practice and get good at that. Looking back I
| was pretty down after a while saying things like "I'll take
| anything at this point" when I asked why I wanted the job. True,
| but not what potential employers want to hear. Think of it from
| the employers point of view and what they want to hear. Again,
| practice helps and you get better with time.
|
| I got a couple of temporary jobs one for pretty minimal wage but
| that made a huge difference actually having some real world
| experience on my CV in terms of getting invited for interviews.
|
| Have some code that you can show people. Build some example
| projects. I would advise spending some time building a more
| comprehensive project one time to show that rather than doing a
| crappy throwaway project from scratch for each interview -
| something I still seem expected to do after 20 years of
| experience. The hiring process in this industry sucks and is very
| exploitative in this way, happy to waste candidates time like
| this.
| cratermoon wrote:
| Oh, new grads are golden, they have almost nothing worry about.
| The companies laying off workers are pushing out the senior,
| highly-paid, most expensive employees. They will quickly and
| eagerly replace with them with naive, low-paid (relatively),
| eager-to-drink-the-koolaid fresh grads. The only thing the new
| grads might have to worry about is that they probably won't get
| as much money as they would have prior to the layoff waves. Well,
| that and the fact that as entry-level grunts they will be treated
| like garbage and employers will take advantage of their lack of
| experience in identifying and fighting unfair working conditions,
| wage theft, discriminatory hiring and advancement, and so on.
|
| So, go out and grab the best job you can. Just be prepared for
| the life at the bottom of the hill.
| scarface74 wrote:
| If I'm trying to keep a company afloat, I would much rather
| have a few experienced engineers than a bunch of juniors that
| start off doing "negative work"
| dboreham wrote:
| You're assuming the application of logic and critical
| thinking.
| cratermoon wrote:
| > If I'm trying to keep a company afloat
|
| Business people run companies according to business
| principles. The board and shareholders will focus on the
| short term and the stock price. Also, are these layoffs
| really about keeping companies afloat, or are they about
| maximizing shareholder value?
| scarface74 wrote:
| In the case of Facebook, at least, even after the layoffs,
| their staffing levels were just putting them back at the
| 2019 levels.
|
| If Google laid off all of their engineers that were working
| on money losing projects that they are going to probably
| cancel in a year anyway, no one would see a decrease in
| service and their net income would increase.
|
| As far as tech startups, they are mostly Ponzi schemes
| anyway where the investors were planning to pawn off their
| companies via either acquisition or an IPO.
|
| Can you name one major tech company that has IPOd and
| created a profitable sustainable business in the last
| decade besides AirBnB?
| codegeek wrote:
| Way too cynical view. Entry Level Grads always have more to
| prove and there is a lot of supply out there. If every employer
| is discriminating, then there will be a time when no entry
| level person can find a job. That is not the case. Not every
| entry level person is entitled to a 100k job right out of
| college.
| keeptrying wrote:
| You need to be applying to 20 jobs a day.
|
| Pay for something that helps you mass apply - I think there are
| tools out there. Unfortunately I've forgotten their names.
|
| Put yourself in a strong situation - i.e. move back to your
| parents etc so money isn't a worry.
|
| I never went to Grad School but a lot of my friends went to Grad
| school.
| shagie wrote:
| When looking at resumes that have come through, it is _really_
| easy to identify the ones that came from a mass application vs.
| the ones where the person read the job description.
|
| If there is limited time to review or interview candidates
| resulting in some not getting moved further along, one of the
| easy early filters is to not consider the ones that came in
| from a third party easy apply and don't match the format
| expected by the ATS (if they even got that far).
|
| It is fine to use linked in, dice, Glassdoor and whatever else
| to discover companies that may have jobs listed. _However_
| preference should always be given to applying on the company
| page itself with a resume that indicates that you read the
| position requirements.
| jedberg wrote:
| My advice to an undergrad is: Go to grad school. Now is the
| perfect time to apply, and generally CS/EE students get paid to
| attend by having their tuition paid for by their advisor and
| getting a stipend for research/TA jobs. There is also government
| money to be had. Ride out the storm in Grad school, gain some
| skills, and expand your network. When you finish the economy
| should be good again.
|
| If you're a grad student, maybe try to get a post-doc?
|
| But assuming more academia is not for you, look for jobs outside
| of tech companies. Like apply for a job building the McDonalds
| app or writing software for John Deere tractors. The job probably
| won't be great, but you might get lucky and find a company that
| has realized that tech is the future and are investing in it (I
| recently met some guys from Ford who were doing some crazy cool
| stuff).
|
| If you want to try to find which non-tech companies are embracing
| and investing in tech, look for old companies that have been
| featured in keynotes at re:invent or Google Cloud Next.
|
| And of course use your network. Find friends who _did_ get jobs
| and ask them if there are any more. While there are general
| hiring freezes, some companies will open up a few jobs to
| counteract attrition, and some will exempt new college grads from
| their freezes (because you guys are cheap and eager to learn
| _their_ way of doing things without preconceived notions).
|
| Good luck, and try not to get too down if you get ignored or
| rejected a lot -- it will happen to the best of people!
| twblalock wrote:
| Unless you already know you want to do something that requires
| a graduate degree, the opportunity cost is still too high even
| in this job market.
|
| Even a crappy job in your field is going to make you
| financially better off than 2+ years in a graduate program that
| doesn't help you achieve your career goals.
| claytongulick wrote:
| I think this advice is highly dependent on career goals.
|
| What sort of work is interesting to you, and why?
|
| Going to grad school is only a good idea if there's something
| specific you're trying to learn. It's a means not an ends.
|
| For someone who doesn't have real life work experience in their
| field, I don't think it's the best idea.
|
| I think working in the industry for a few years (at least) and
| seeing the types of jobs and work that are available is a
| better approach.
|
| After you have some experience and want to specialize in a
| specific thing (AI/ML, etc...) going to grad school might make
| sense, depending.
|
| When I'm hiring, it's actually a bit of a red flag for me to
| see a resume with a graduate degree and no work experience -
| but the positions I hire for tend to be very practical business
| development types things, not really that appropriate for
| graduate level.
|
| Unfortunately, that's 90%+ of the market.
|
| Many hiring managers will be hesitant to hire you in that
| situation, because the assumption is that you're overqualified,
| under experienced, and will leave for a more senior opportunity
| as soon as you get the chance.
|
| I was given the advice to avoid going to grad school early in
| my career, and I'm glad I followed it.
| jedberg wrote:
| You're ignoring the context of the post. This is advice for
| what a new grad should do _right now_ in this particular
| economy.
|
| You're right that grad school is more effective after working
| a few years, but its still a better option that starvation if
| you can get into grad school with a stipend.
|
| And if you throw away the resumes of someone who went
| straight to grad school, you're just missing out on a lot of
| good candidates.
| claytongulick wrote:
| > You're ignoring the context of the post.
|
| No, I'm not. Getting out and working is the best thing you
| can do in a down economy, even if it's a crappy job, or not
| as much money as you'd like.
|
| > And if you throw away the resumes of someone who went
| straight to grad school, you're just missing out on a lot
| of good candidates.
|
| Where did I say I throw out resumes? It's a red flag. Those
| can be overcome in interviews or with other mitigating
| factors, but pretending like this isn't an issue doesn't
| help anyone.
| difflens wrote:
| My recommendation would be to apply to as many positions as you
| can, but steel yourself to the fact that you may not hear back
| from any of them. I'd also recommend exploring if you can push
| graduation back by a year (assuming funding would cover it and
| you have legit research to do), or if you can pick up part time
| lecturer, post doc etc type of positions for the next year. IMO,
| job prospects for software engineers will likely start improving
| in the last quarter of 2023 and be much better in 2024. So I'd
| plan to tough it out till then.
|
| I do empathize with your position and wish you luck :) I'm ever
| grateful to the first manager who hired me. He changed my life
| forever and that of my family.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| > Is it better to get any job than keep searching for the job I'd
| be most suited for?
|
| In general I'd say no although I'm not sure it applies to you. I
| know some people who graduated into the Internet apocalypse of
| 2002. They picked up crappy jobs and then got pigeon-holed into
| that crappy job for a very long time. It's a lot easier to get a
| job in a cool field as a new grad than it is as someone with
| experience doing manual testing or another crappy field.
|
| Normally I'd recommend someone in your position to go for their
| Master's or Ph.D rather than getting a crappy job, but you
| already have your PhD so I'm not sure how much of my advice
| applies to you. PhD signals a deep specialization which may
| overcome the stigma of a crappy job.
| scarface74 wrote:
| This is an absolutely horrible idea. Pride never paid a bill.
|
| It's almost always better to take any job you can get and keep
| looking. Every month that you aren't working, you have to make
| more to make up for the time of unemployment.
|
| I would rather be "pigeonholed" (won't happen) than be
| unemployed. The hardest thing is breaking the can't get a job
| <-> don't have experience cycle.
|
| I've transitioned between many technologies since I started
| working in 1996.
| eschneider wrote:
| You can always take a crappy job to pay the bills while looking
| for something better. You can decide later if you want to put
| it on your resume or not.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| But you're out of the new grad hiring pipeline. It's probably
| different in 2022 than it was in 2002, but in 2002 when
| companies wanted to hire new grads they posted jobs at
| Universities and did job fairs at Universities. So if you
| weren't at a University it was harder to get a new grad job.
|
| And you have a hole in your resume you have to explain.
| eschneider wrote:
| No, if you don't list the job, it looks just like it does
| if you didn't take it and kept looking. You have the "hole"
| between graduation and first job same as if you took
| nothing.
| bradwood wrote:
| Do a post grad??
| 2sk21 wrote:
| I have one of the early PhDs in neural network based machine
| learning - completed in 1992. My biggest problem back then was
| that only a few people in the entire world even know what a
| neural network was - so I was a little head of the curve :-)
| Thankfully however, I was able to get a job in a networking group
| at IBM Research on the basis of some distributed systems work
| that I had done in the process of creating my neural network
| training code. You have to recall how slow computers were thirty
| years ago so I needed a lot of them to train my networks.
|
| Anyway, I was completely out of the machine learning field for
| nearly 15 years until the late 2000s when interest in the field
| started to pick up again. The main advice I can offer is to be
| flexible and bide your time.
| angarg12 wrote:
| I graduated in 2008 and entered the job market during probably
| the deepest recession in my country. I was lucky that I landed a
| grant which ensured my job for the next 4 years. This was both a
| blessing and a curse. Let me explain.
|
| During and after the recession unemployment rate soared past 25%.
| 2/3 of my company got laid off during that period. At some point
| more than half of my friends were unemployed. Having a stable job
| you can count for years to come was an incredible perk.
|
| However this security bred both complacency and toxicity. My boss
| started saying things like "you are lucky you got a job", "we are
| doing you a favour letting you work here" or "there are no jobs
| out there" (BTW I'm seeing echoes of this in some managers these
| days). Although the job was terrible, I was conditioned to have
| extremely low expectations.
|
| At the end I spent the first 7 years of my career in a low
| performing and toxic organization. I was so severely underpaid
| that when I finally changed jobs, I 4x my pay without trying too
| hard. The rest is history.
|
| So if I had to capture my lessons in a tip is: do whatever you
| need to "survive" the recession, but keep an eye on the market
| and be quick to jump when the tide turns.
|
| I'll never know how much I would have turbocharged my career if I
| had jumped at the beginning of the longest bull market in history
| rather than languishing in a career dead end.
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