[HN Gopher] MacBook Pro featuring M2 Pro and M2 Max
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MacBook Pro featuring M2 Pro and M2 Max
Author : ValentineC
Score : 783 points
Date : 2023-01-17 14:18 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.apple.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.apple.com)
| trynewideas wrote:
| > With up to 96GB of unified memory in the M2 Max model, creators
| can work on scenes so large that PC laptops can't even run them.4
|
| ...
|
| > 4. Testing was conducted by Apple in November and December 2022
| using preproduction 16-inch MacBook Pro systems with Apple M2
| Max, 12-core CPU, 38-core GPU, 96GB of RAM, and 8TB SSD, as well
| as a production Intel Core i9-based PC system with NVIDIA Quadro
| RTX 6000 graphics with 24GB GDDR6 and the latest version of
| Windows 11 Pro available at the time of testing, and a production
| Intel Core i9-based PC system with NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti
| graphics with 16GB GDDR6 and the latest version of Windows 11
| Home available at the time of testing. OTOY Octane X 2022.1 on
| preproduction 16-inch MacBook Pro systems and OTOY OctaneRender
| 2022.1 on Windows systems were tested using a scene that requires
| over 40GB of graphics memory when rendered.
|
| Two things:
|
| - The Quadro RTX 6000 shipped in 2018 and the GeForce RTX 3080 Ti
| is a 12GB card vs. the 24GB 3090 or 3090 Ti, much less a 4090. I
| get that it's a marketing eye-roll claim, and it's cool to see a
| laptop post up against those specs, but why is Apple even
| bothering to measure performance against 4-year-old or under-
| specced cards? I wouldn't expect a 40GB OctaneRender scene to run
| on a 12GB gaming card or 4-year-old Quadro on any system.
|
| - If 60% of VFX workstations are running Linux vs. 11% of
| macOS,[1] how does the M2 Max MBP stack up against a garden-
| variety _Linux_ workstation?
|
| 1:
| https://drive.google.com/file/d/15b-4GMTSEE9tyqeQdBfy_LZnxQI...
| mrtksn wrote:
| With the recent Stable Diffusion boom, It's been funny that the
| tutorials requirements look like this: Some beefy workstation
| hardware or Macbook Air M1.
|
| The unified memory architecture is a bliss and they are talking
| the truth about some popular contemporary workloads being out
| of the reach of the most PC.
| onebot wrote:
| I wonder what the breakdown of software used for VFX is in this
| report? There are tools like Adobe After Effects that doesn't
| run in Linux. I know about Fusion and Nuke, but wish the report
| recorded what software was being run on each OS.
| amatecha wrote:
| Well, to be fair, if you go to NVIDIA's site for "professional
| desktop workstations", the Quadro RTX 6000 is precisely what
| they show first: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/design-
| visualization/desktop-gr...
| touisteur wrote:
| Yes still waiting for OEMs and integrators to get inventory
| on lovelace or rtx 40...
| trynewideas wrote:
| It's not? Are you getting A/B tested or something?
|
| I see the RTX 6000 Ada and A6000 in both the hero image and
| the first products listed. The Quadro 6000's a 24GB 4,608
| CUDA-core PCIe 3x16 card[1] and the A6000 is a 10,752 CUDA-
| core 48GB PCIe 4x16 card.[2]
|
| I know NVIDIA's branding and product line naming sucks, but
| those clearly aren't the same cards, or even same generation
| of card.
|
| 1: https://www.nvidia.com/content/dam/en-zz/Solutions/design-
| vi...
|
| 2: https://www.nvidia.com/content/dam/en-zz/Solutions/design-
| vi...
| amatecha wrote:
| I see. So NVIDIA has actually made a completely new GPU
| with the exact same product name, with a new architecture?
| That's cool. Totally clear and understandable.
|
| Though there's one detail: Apple probably couldn't have
| tested against the new "Ada" one because it's not even
| available yet, so they still tested against the best
| available workstation GPU, unless I'm missing something.
|
| "Notify Me" button on the page for RTX 6000 Ada says "You
| will receive an email when the new NVIDIA RTX 6000 Ada
| Generation graphics card becomes available." I think it's
| unrealistic to expect companies to benchmark against future
| products. (not saying you expect that haha)
| budoso wrote:
| I know its not what you meant, but "are you getting A/B
| tested or something?" is a pretty great software world
| roast.
| Firmwarrior wrote:
| I like how it shows that we all just casually know that
| everything websites show you is constantly in flux and
| tailored to a particular person via Orwellian tracking
| measures
| michpoch wrote:
| These are desktop cards. Apple is comparing laptops to
| laptops.
| trynewideas wrote:
| TIL there was a real-world laptop that actually shipped in
| 2020 with the Quadro RTX 6000, "the workstation equivalent
| of a GeForce RTX 2080 Super", with a 9th-gen i9 (and was
| $10,000?) https://www.cnet.com/reviews/asus-proart-
| studiobook-one-revi...
|
| So I still don't know why their benchmark is a 2.5-year-old
| laptop.
|
| I'm also noticing that Apple didn't list the generation of
| i9 in that marketing disclaimer, so this makes me think
| they're also possibly comparing against 2- to 3-year-old
| CPUs.
| amatecha wrote:
| They are not. The person I responded to also quoted the
| text I will quote from Apple's page:
|
| > Testing was conducted by Apple in November and December
| 2022 using preproduction 16-inch MacBook Pro systems with
| Apple M2 Max, 12-core CPU, 38-core GPU, 96GB of RAM, and
| 8TB SSD, as well as a production Intel Core i9-based PC
| system with NVIDIA Quadro RTX 6000 graphics with 24GB GDDR6
| and the latest version of Windows 11 Pro available at the
| time of testing, and a production Intel Core i9-based PC
| system with NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti graphics with 16GB
| GDDR6 and the latest version of Windows 11 Home available
| at the time of testing.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| >a production Intel Core i9-based PC system with NVIDIA
| GeForce RTX 3080 Ti graphics
|
| To be clear, NVIDIA (and Intel) use identical names for
| their desktop parts and for their laptop versions. There
| is the 3080 Ti (GA102-225-A1) which has 10240 shaders
| clocked at 1365 mhz and a 350 watt TDP, and the 3080 Ti
| (GA103) for laptops which has 7424 shaders clocked at (up
| to) 1230 mhz and a (up to) 150 watt TDP. The former does
| about 305 fps in userbench and the latter does 193 fps.
| (Until it thermal throttles)
| https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Nvidia-
| RTX-3080-Ti/Rating/4115
| https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/1775790/NVIDIA-
| GeFor... There is an equivalent bait and switch for the
| Intel i9 desktop vs mobile.
|
| It's unfortunate that Apple isn't making themselves 100%
| entirely clear on this, but to be fair, neither is the
| competition.
| [deleted]
| zwaps wrote:
| Apple has a point tho: what PC laptop or what typical PC for
| that matter (and that price) can give you 96 GB of VRAM?
|
| If you could run ML models properly on that machine, it would
| be pretty nice for inference on larger models. Now, of course,
| Apple being Apple they expect you to hand-code ML algos in
| Swift (lol. lmao.) but still, 96GB of VRAM is 96 GB of VRAM.
|
| Edit: Just to clarify, I understand that this has 400 gbs of
| bandwidth, not 3,2 tbs like an Nvidia Accelerator with the same
| size. But the latter costs tens of thousands and requires,
| well, a whole datacenter probably. This allows you to run some
| GPT-X or Diffusion model on your laptop. In theory.
| reticulated wrote:
| Apple have caveated the comparison by specifying "PC laptops"
| and according to NVidia's own site [1], and clicking through to
| see the actual specs [2], there aren't any currently available
| that out-spec a 16GB 3080 Ti.
|
| I'll admit I haven't gone spelunking down the specialist laptop
| manuafacturer sites, but on the surface it seems to be not an
| unrealistic claim.
|
| [1] https://store.nvidia.com/en-
| gb/geforce/store/laptop/?page=1&... [2]
| https://www.box.co.uk/82TD000WUK-Lenovo-Legion-7-Intel-Core-...
| trynewideas wrote:
| Sure, but the claim is:
|
| > creators can work on scenes so large that PC laptops can't
| even run them
|
| You can't open a 40GB scene entirely in GPU RAM on any
| single-GPU system, laptop or otherwise, because there aren't
| any 40GB+ GPUs.
|
| But you can open a 40GB Octane demo scene _with out-of-core
| loading enabled_ on a Windows laptop with 64GB of RAM. Hell,
| Otoy has a demo from _2018_ of a Windows system loading and
| editing that "worst-case" 40GB scene _entirely_ out-of-core
| at 60fps.[1]
|
| So the suggestion is that the M2 is doing it _without_
| enabling out-of-core loading because all system RAM is in-
| core. Which is cool, and something Otoy 's CEO was boasting
| on the M1 MBP's release day two years ago.[2]
|
| So why bother going through the motions of benchmarking
| _anything_ like this against 2+-year-old systems, just to
| make a claim the M1 also made, just less precisely?
|
| 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xE3J56pabk
|
| 2: https://twitter.com/JulesUrbach/status/1326922973790367750
| boulos wrote:
| > You can't open a 40GB scene entirely in GPU RAM on any
| single-GPU system, laptop or otherwise, because there
| aren't any 40GB+ GPUs.
|
| The second revision of the A100 has 80 GiB of memory:
| https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/a100/
| bahmboo wrote:
| I think Apple is making a point that their GPU has 96GB of ram
| which no enthusiast PC Card can touch. The A100 (2020) goes to
| 80GB but is $15K (but also much much faster). So if you need
| that extra 16GB...
| mattlondon wrote:
| Yeah I thought this was quite disappointing too.
|
| "PCs can't even run this!" ....when using a PC with specs too
| low to run the specific thing we chose to do.
|
| "Mac's can't even run notepad.exe!" would be fair using Apple's
| approach to these kind of claims (i.e. choosing to run software
| with requirements that you know they cannot meet)
| agloeregrets wrote:
| In fairness, Apple's claim is that no laptop can do it, and
| to that angle they are correct.
| joshenberg wrote:
| Would an eGPU enable certain laptops to do this? I get that
| that's 'cheating', but also is it? I need a shit ton of
| peripherals to run my Mac workstation
| agloeregrets wrote:
| Well, you would need a GPU with 96GB of VRAM, might be
| able to do multiple eGPUs, not sure...but that still
| would hit major throughput limits.
| [deleted]
| umanwizard wrote:
| Is there expected to be a difference in CPU performance between
| the 12-core M2 Pro and the 12-core M2 Max ?
| Kalanos wrote:
| Of course they don't show whether or not they got rid of the
| touchbar on the keyboard
| satysin wrote:
| Because they got rid of that over a year ago in these models.
| bouke wrote:
| Except they didn't and recently unveiled this 13" MacBook Pro
| with M2 chip: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-13/. Granted
| it's not the 14"/16" model, but still a touch bar on a new
| model.
| pwinnski wrote:
| They did not re-introduce the already-eliminated touch bar.
| [deleted]
| ContrabandNews wrote:
| https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/16-inch-space...
|
| On the shop page the angle is available to see no touch-bar.
| teilo wrote:
| Only the 13" Pro with an M2 still comes with a touchbar.
| rcarmo wrote:
| The Mini is much more exciting than the MacBook, actually. Shame
| it only gets (up to) a Pro CPU, so I guess the Studio will get
| the Max/Ultra in a few months...
| rekabis wrote:
| A maxed-out Mini is pretty much half the price of a Studio Max. I
| wonder which one ends up being a better long-term purchase, in
| terms of obsolescence and OS support.
| LetsGetTechnicl wrote:
| I'm excited for this because hopefully there'll be some really
| good deals on M1 models...
| therusskiy wrote:
| These new ARM chips are almost perfect, the only bad part is...
| ARM.
|
| Most backend devs these days use Docker, and serious Docker usage
| on M1/M2 macs isn't really possible due to bugs and super slow
| performance.
|
| I was doing benchmarks and for our workloads images would build
| several times slower as well as our test suites.
|
| We had many devs in our company buy the shiny macbooks only
| having to return them due to incompatibilities with Docker.
|
| My computer journey was Windows -> Linux -> Macos, now more than
| decade later I am returning back to Windows, because WSL is a
| total blessing.
| jstx1 wrote:
| I don't know what you mean about Docker - in my experience it
| runs just fine on M1.
| inadequatespace wrote:
| You must be jocular then. He said serious usage. (In all
| seriousness, I've had few problems as well. Sometimes I have
| to muck with base images but it's not a showstopper)
| runjake wrote:
| They are talking about running production x64 Docker
| containers, which is slow on M1.
|
| If you're using ARM64 containers, then it works pretty well,
| for the most part.
| [deleted]
| dabernathy89 wrote:
| Docker for ARM Macs should be improved with the latest update:
|
| > Yesterday a new @Docker For Mac version was released that
| will virtualize Intel containers with Rosetta instead of
| emulating them.
|
| https://twitter.com/tobias_petry/status/1613837074356129792
| diimdeep wrote:
| Adobe products lag even in new Macs with 40bln transistors M2 Pro
| CPU. Hilarious. How hard it must be to scale bitmap without lags
| ? https://youtu.be/6Ij9PiehENA?t=457
| another_kel wrote:
| This is Illustrator, not photoshop, so it's vector. It doesn't
| really lag, the bounding box moves smoothly, but the preview is
| absent. To get preview you need gpu acceleration[1], which is
| either absent on arm macs or turned off here for some reason.
|
| 1 -- https://helpx.adobe.com/illustrator/kb/gpu-performance-
| previ...
| shrubble wrote:
| The ThinkPad P15 gen 1, shipped in 2020 with 128gb RAM
| available...
|
| for example: https://www.techradar.com/news/this-is-the-best-
| value-128gb-...
|
| So I don't see why Apple would make the claim that their 96gb
| setup can load models that PC laptops can't...
| agloeregrets wrote:
| They are talking about how the M2 Max can flexibly address the
| near entirety (like 90GB) of that to VRAM, the example here is
| in video memory, not system memory. On that P15 you linked you
| have only 4GB VRAM. Comparatively it's kinda a joke for this
| specific tasks.
| ericmay wrote:
| I haven't looked into this (and couldn't care less) but it
| probably has something to do with newer technology in the RAM.
| Not all RAM is created equal.
| dagmx wrote:
| Did it ship with 128GB available to the GPU? That's part of the
| claim, because this has a huge amount of RAM that both the
| CPU+GPU can access.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Plenty of laptops with iGPUs that can do this, yes.
| agloeregrets wrote:
| ...Not exactly and this is a silly comparison anyways
|
| Apple dynamically scales the GPU memory while Windows GPU
| memory must be reserved. If you have 64GB of Ram and want
| 32GB of VRAM you now...always.... have 32GB of system
| memory.
|
| But furthermore...that iGPU is like 1/10th the performance
| of an M1 Max lol, absolutely nobody should EVER do this on
| an iGPU. Their argument is that on a dedicated card you
| just can't do this.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| It is not true that iGPU memory always has to be reserved
| anymore. Some programs and APIs don't support it, but you
| can address main system memory from many iGPUs and vice-
| versa. In Vulkan for example you can do this by setting
| the HOST_COHERENT, HOST_VISIBLE and DEVICE_VISIBLE for a
| buffer. Of course, this is subject to driver bugs, and
| you have to be careful with caches that may or may not be
| shared depending on the specific iGPU.
|
| Beyond this, newer iGPUs like the RX680M are comparable
| in performance to an M1 Pro. Certainly sufficient for any
| model visualization task, since that's what we're talking
| about.
| agloeregrets wrote:
| The example here is an M2 Max, which presumably is at
| least 2.X times faster than M1 Pro, but hey, good to
| know!
| sudosysgen wrote:
| In those applications you're likely to be limited by
| raster performance, and I can't find any metrics for
| that. TFlop for TFlop, the 780M which is the main
| competitor should be within 10-30%, but that is not
| relevant for this application.
|
| The only other application where this could be relevant
| would be 3D rendering, where the 780M would win by a
| large margin due to RT acceleration.
| dagmx wrote:
| Afaik the Intel Integrated GPUs either have a hard limit on
| the addressable RAM or are capped to half the available
| RAM.
|
| I don't know of any AMD G series equipped laptops with that
| much memory , but admittedly I haven't looked closely at
| the options.
|
| Then there's the issue of memory sharing of actual data
| resources. Albeit, this is down to Software, but more
| software for Mac can assume shared memory to take advantage
| of it, versus other brands because iGPUs have historically
| been very limited.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The AMD laptops don't need to be in the G series to have
| an iGPU - they all do. The G series only exists for
| desktops.
|
| > Albeit, this is down to Software, but more software for
| Mac can assume shared memory to take advantage of it,
| versus other brands because iGPUs have historically been
| very limited.
|
| AFAIK there is no such software that only supports Macs.
| You can query these features at runtime, and it's easier
| to do so than to rewrite your renderer for Metal.
| dagmx wrote:
| Ah yeah I always get tripped up by AMDs offerings.
|
| I didn't say the software needed to only support Mac, but
| if they have a metal backend (as many things have
| multiple backends) they know they can spend the time to
| get a bigger ROI due to the number of shared memory macs
| as a percentage of all macs.
| djtriptych wrote:
| My new setup as of November is an M2 Air (16GB /1 TB) and an base
| model M1 Studio.
|
| I really couldn't be happier. I run a small WFH / Music
| Production / Photography studio in my basement and I really
| wanted an always-on always connected computer, for which the
| Studio has been perfect.
|
| The M2 Air is pretty close to a perfect laptop. My complaints
| (low audio volume, slighty cramped screen) are absolutely dwarfed
| by the long list of decades-old issues this laptop just
| eliminates:
|
| - All day battery life. Basically like the Apple Watch - charge
| it overnight and it's really good all day with normal workloads
| (e.g. not rendering video). But it was absolutely surreal the
| first couple of weeks watching an hour long show while running a
| dozen apps and seeing the charge go from 100% to like 98%. It
| makes no sense and I had to adjust work habits.
|
| - Extreme snappiness. It's in every way snappier than my previous
| computer, a 32GB 2019 MBP. It _might_ be slower on long CPU-bound
| or RAM-bound workloads, but photo editing is both and it feels
| faster on the Air.
|
| - Form factor. It's my first Air. I'm not going back. I'm 40+ and
| keeping extra pounds off my lower back matters for me. The Air,
| if it's all you're carrying, is barely noticeable.
|
| It's just fantastic. If you were wondering if you can replace an
| MBP with the Air yet, it's almost certainly a yes (though I
| wouldn't try all this on 8GB RAM). At $2000, what I paid, it's a
| revelation.
|
| Also if like me you work on a desktop/laptop Apple setup at your
| desk, the new continuity features are totally incredible. Working
| with the studio/air together is totally seamless (You can extend
| the screens and use the same keyboard/mouse). It just works.
| Apple really is getting a lot of things exactly right on the
| software side in the Apple silicon era.
| computerfriend wrote:
| It's amazing. Except it has only two USB ports and can only
| support a single external monitor.
| bsder wrote:
| > I'm 40+ and keeping extra pounds off my lower back matters
| for me.
|
| I find that, while more difficult, removing excess poundage
| from my waistline has a lot more impact on that ... :(
| darkteflon wrote:
| To reiterate your point about RAM for anyone wondering: don't
| get the 8gb version! I've run 3 Apple Silicon Macs in different
| configs since 2020. Real-world performance on a range of
| different workloads is substantially worse than the 16gb
| version. Don't even think about having more than one user
| logged in!
| godzillabrennus wrote:
| I have used the 2020 M1 air with 8Gb since last summer
| without any issues as a documents/productivity suite and web
| application development tool. There are zero complaints here.
| I had a Core i9 with 16GB of ram MBP before it. This feels
| just as fast.
| LeanderK wrote:
| I have an really old macbook pro (mid 2014) with 8 gigs of
| ram. I am regularly running out of ram, I think it should
| be independent of processing power, right? Or is there some
| other way it feels snappier? Maybe the SSD got so fast it
| can better handle memory pressure...or you just don't need
| more than 8 gigs and it wasn't a limiting factor before
| godzillabrennus wrote:
| The Apple silicon chips handle ram consumption
| differently. Maybe it's the ssd speed but I hadn't had an
| 8Gb ram computer since I bought a MacBook Pro in 2011
| that supported 16gb and I have 64gb of ram in my windows
| desktop. I really don't hit a wall with the M1 over ram.
| It's an incredible machine but YMMV, especially if you
| use virtualization.
| gateorade wrote:
| The SSDs in the apple silicon machines are likely much
| much faster than whatever you have in your macbook pro so
| when they do spill over into swap it would be much less
| noticeable. That being said, I'm pretty pro apple silicon
| (purchased an M2 Pro this morning) and I would never
| recommend anyone buy a new computer with less than 16GB
| of ram unless the usecase is strictly web
| browsing/streaming/ms word type stuff.
| darkteflon wrote:
| Yep, you'll definitely still notice swapping on the 8gb
| version.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| And yet I remember my old 286 with what? 500mb of ram or
| something ...
| AnnualDegree99 wrote:
| 500 megs sounds wayy off for a 286, by an order of
| magnitude or two. Windows XP required 256.
| Razengan wrote:
| [flagged]
| darkteflon wrote:
| Geez, it's just an anecdote, clearly. No need to throw that
| language around.
| Aperocky wrote:
| I have a M1 air and with basically the same comments. The con
| is that it's no longer the newest air out there, pro being that
| I had it since November 2020 and I really don't have a single
| complaint with the hardware.
| grecy wrote:
| Are you able to edit 4k video in FCP on the M2 Air with 16GB?
|
| I'm looking to upgrade, and I want to go for the lowest config
| M mac that I can get away with for smooth 4k edits.
| djtriptych wrote:
| I don't do this specifically, but if you can go without $2k
| for a few weeks you can take advantage of Apple's permissive
| return policy and just demo for IIRC 14 days.
| darkteflon wrote:
| I used FCP on an M1 Air with _8gb_ to edit 4K videos for over
| a year. Assuming you have enough fast storage (or are happy
| to use a proxy workflow), it certainly can be done, although
| everyone's workflow is different. Assuming no storage speed
| bottleneck, timeline scrubbing was smooth up to about 2x
| forward or backward, from memory - after that you hit decoder
| limits. Proxy workflow gets around that too, though. Render
| times on even the M1 were a big jump over Intel chips. If
| Apple has a 2-week return policy where you are, why not give
| a 16gb M2 Air a try and see if it meets your particular
| needs?
| grecy wrote:
| Thanks, that's great to know. It sounds like it will be a
| huge step up from my 2014 MBP which grinds to a virtual
| halt on 4k. For that reason I've limited myself to 1080 for
| now, but when I upgrade I figure I should step up.
|
| I plan on getting a re-furb, not sure if I can return one
| of those...
| cramjabsyn wrote:
| What's a proxy workflow in this context?
| meheleventyone wrote:
| Do the editing on proxy clips that have been rendered at
| a lower quality so the performance cost is significantly
| reduced.
| thewebcount wrote:
| You can, but honestly, if you can afford 24GB, go for it.
| Remember that unlike in the Intel days, the GPU uses main
| memory for its RAM. (Well, I guess integrated Intel GPUs did
| some of that, too.) That can be painful when you've got a few
| clips in the timeline and some plug-in wants to have multiple
| copies of each frame for doing its processing. (Like it
| applies a blur, then mixes that with the original, or
| whatever.) I have a 16GB MacMini I sometimes edit video on,
| and it works, but there are times when things get
| choppy/slow. I also have a Studio with 64GB, and it's smooth
| as butter. (I mean it's possible to load it up so it slows
| down, but it takes a _lot_ more to do so.)
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| I got an MBP for the extra USB ports, magsafe power adapter,
| and HDMI port alone.
|
| On processing power, I have no doubt the Air would have
| sufficed.
|
| I was willing to take the weight/size penalty for the ports!
| dbg31415 wrote:
| The M2 Air has MagSafe. (=
|
| Killing MagSafe has to be the singled DUMBEST product
| decision anyone ever made.
|
| I'm so glad they finally brought it back.
| prewett wrote:
| I thought killing MagSafe was pretty dumb, too, but every
| time I tripped over the USB-C power cable on my 2018 MBP it
| came right out, no problem. Plus it's really nice to be
| able to move the power cable to whichever side the outlet
| is close to. When I upgrade, I think I'd choose to continue
| using USB-C power if possible.
|
| I'll actually miss the Touch Bar. It's an interesting idea
| that seems useful, but isn't, except in one very useful
| case: it's really nice being able to slide the volume to
| exactly where I want it. With the keys back I'll have to
| memorize Shift+Option+VolumeUp (or whatever it is).
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| I tripped on my usbc cord and broke the cable
| rconti wrote:
| I've also tripped on a magsafe cord and watched my 2011
| air fly off the table and bounce+flip on my wood floor,
| so it's not a panacea. I think the right-angle ones were
| more prone to yanking your machine off the table,
| especially if pulled perpendicular to the magnetic
| connection.
|
| Thankfully, the computer was perfectly fine.
| theturtletalks wrote:
| Without Apple removing MagSafe, we wouldn't have had
| USB-C charging on MacBooks.
| godzillabrennus wrote:
| At least until the European Union forced them too...
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| The MacBook Air at least still supports USB-C power,
| which is useful for USB-C monitors that also supply
| power. But I still think you need to plug it in on the
| right side to avoid overheating the laptop (the MBA at
| least doesn't have a fan, so I can't tell if this is
| still true or not).
| ProZsolt wrote:
| It would be pretty hard to put a charge on the right side
| as it only have a headphone jack there every other port
| (2xUSB+Magsafe) is on the left.
|
| On the other hand, my M1 Pro MacBook Pro don't have any
| problem charging on either side, not like my previous
| Intel.
| peterloron wrote:
| My 2021 MBP 16" M1 Max doesn't get hot with the USB-C
| power connected to the left side. Unknown if that's still
| an issue with the Air.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| > When I upgrade, I think I'd choose to continue using
| USB-C power if possible.
|
| It is possible. You can ignore the magsafe and power via
| any of the USB-C ports on the MBPs that also have
| magsafe, definitely.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| Oh, I missed that! and then it has one usb port, or two? If
| it has two plus magsafe and i had noticed, i might have
| bought that!
| msk-lywenn wrote:
| It has two USB-Cs and magsafe on the left side, audio
| jack on the right side. I wish it had an HDMI too. I
| might buy a USB-C-HDMI cable at some point.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| Thanks!
|
| In retrospect, I think i would have bought the Air! I
| somehow thought the Air still had only two USB-Cs, one of
| which would be occupied by power if plugged in. Which was
| not enough. Two USB-Cs plus a separate magsafe would,
| barely, be enough for me.
|
| the price difference is not huge once I put in 16GB of
| RAM and a 1TB HD. But the smaller size of the Air is
| nice! I suspect even the Air is enough CPU for me,
| although the new M2 MBP seems like a lot more CPU I
| think.
| jclardy wrote:
| I'm glad to have it as an option, but I think I've used my
| magsafe cable for charging two times in the past two years.
| The incredible battery life + switching my desk setup to
| USB-C means I pretty much never need to charge outside of
| normal usage at my desk
| ProZsolt wrote:
| Back then I liked the Magsafe, but the my new Macbook's
| Magsafe cable is still in the box. With 12+ hours of
| battery life I barely charge it when I use it and when I'm
| it is usually at my desk connected to my monitor via USB-C.
|
| When I'm on the go I only want to bring one charger and
| cable for backup for every device, which is USB-C. (I don't
| own an iPhone)
| djtriptych wrote:
| It's like they sandbagged themselves knowing they were
| going to change the whole game in a few years.
| djtriptych wrote:
| Makes sense!
|
| As a photographer and DJ even the MBP runs out of ports
| pretty quickly, so I had a standing collection of travel hubs
| for this already + a CalDigit thunderbolt hub for home.
| kccqzy wrote:
| Speaking of form factor I am really surprised more people don't
| want an Air. My work laptop (purchased by my employer) was an
| Air in the Intel days, and I loved it even though it was dog
| slow. It didn't bother me because I basically only need a
| browser and ssh. And, I bike to work so weight reduction
| matters.
|
| Nowadays after the Apple Silicon transition my employer no
| longer offered an Air. The reason was too few employees wanted
| it and it was too much trouble to maintain a separate SKU in
| the inventory for the few of us. Really quite a bummer.
| ProZsolt wrote:
| Did your employer provide a speced up Air or just the base
| model. Last time I only chose the Pro because it had twice
| the ram and storage otherwise I would have went with the Air.
| jonplackett wrote:
| I'd be so up for a 16 inch 'air'. I so love my M1 Pro Max
| MacBook, but Christ it's heavy.
|
| It's heavier, and I think thicker, than my 2012 MacBook Pro.
| Now I expected it to be heavier, but was expecting it to drop
| back maybe one iteration to MacBook 2014 kind of heft. But
| we're a full decade back of beefiness.
|
| I need a big screen though so it's the only option. Unless they
| make a nice thin 16 inch air. I am pretty confifent it would
| sell extremely well.
| ideonode wrote:
| I sympathise. I have a 16in M1 Max, coming from an LG Gram
| 17. I can't fault the power of it, but the heft isn't ideal
| for me.
|
| I'd welcome a 15in or 16in Air. The rumour mill suggests a
| 15in Air is in the works. However, I'm now used to the 120Hz
| display of the Max, which I suspect wouldn't be an option for
| the non-pro models...
| kllrnohj wrote:
| > But we're a full decade back of beefiness.
|
| Really it's where the beefiness always should have been for
| the performance class / power envelope they are (and have
| been) targeting.
|
| But yeah, a large screen thin & light seems like an obvious
| hole in the lineup.
| PakG1 wrote:
| How is the heat? I've heard from anecdotal reports that under
| heavy workloads, the M2 Air can get super hot, and so Pro is
| the way to go if you're using heavy workloads. But you're doing
| music/photo production, etc, so I wonder if you agree. I know
| that's not the same as video.
| djtriptych wrote:
| Well I do light music production - mostly on the Studio.
|
| For photography work it's been fine. But I haven't done
| multiple-minute exports since buying it so I can't really
| say.
|
| I _can_ say that under my normal workloads (coding web apps,
| office applications open, chrome with say 20 tabs, often
| playing chess, live streaming / zoom) heat has never been an
| issue. It's also my DJ computer for gigs and no issues I've
| noticed there, although it's not on my lap.
|
| Contrasted with the 2019 intel MBP it's again night and day.
| Heat was very noticeable, as were heat-related throttling
| issues. It would just grind to a halt under normal workday
| loads esp when screen casting zoom + having all my normal
| apps and IDEs running.
| geerlingguy wrote:
| If you do sustained work, like render or transcode video, the
| Air only goes full tilt for 5-10 minutes then starts
| throttling until you stop doing the heavy work.
|
| If that's something you do more than once in a while,
| definitely opt for the Pro. For any other workload that's
| less than maxing out CPUs, or just bursty, the Air has been
| excellent.
|
| I still think the M1 Air was a better value overall. And I
| liked the curves to it more than the M2's boxy design.
| newsclues wrote:
| Your laptop complaints are addressed by the MBP models, which
| aren't much heavier if that is your primary objection.
| wpm wrote:
| The 14" M2 Pro is 30% heavier than the M2 Air and 20%
| thicker. I don't really classify that as "not much".
|
| I have a 14" M1 Pro from work and a personal M2 Air and it's
| always surprising how much heavier the M1 Pro feels from my
| Air.
| cramjabsyn wrote:
| $1.30 is not much more than $1.00
| simonh wrote:
| Is $1300 not much more than $1000?
| SiVal wrote:
| Oh, please don't let anyone at Apple hear you complain
| about "thicker". I'm still not back to trusting them after
| years of downgrades pretending to be upgrades: "We've made
| the thinnest, best-looking Mac ever while removing less
| functionality than we've removed in most previous
| upgrades!"
| godzillabrennus wrote:
| My sentiments exactly. Go buy an iPad if you want thin
| light and all day battery life. I want what Apple is
| delivering today, real power with real portability, even
| if it weighs a bit more and happens to have some love
| handles.
| djtriptych wrote:
| Agreed - it's great that the battery life on the pro is so
| good now, but that extra weight is, to me, the difference
| between noticeable and not noticeable.
| darkteflon wrote:
| I went from an M1 Air to an M1 Pro 14" and agree with you.
| The Air weight is a bit magical. Very chuckable, makes you
| want to reach for it whenever you want to get something
| done quickly or perch it on the arm of the couch.
|
| By contrast the M1 Pro 14" just tips over into unwieldy. So
| much so that I regret not just going the whole hog and
| getting the 16", since at this weight I prefer to have it
| sitting on a proper table and could've used the extra
| screen real estate.
|
| I had intended to sell the Air but ended up keeping both,
| mainly for this very reason. The Pro rarely leaves its
| dock.
| Arainach wrote:
| Percentages are misleading in such small absolute numbers.
| "30%" is 160 grams (0.3 pounds) in this context.
| masklinn wrote:
| The 14" is 360g (0.8 lbs) heavier than the Air. The 13"
| (which is little more than a heavier air) is the one
| that's 160g heavier than the air.
|
| And percentages are not at all misleading, the 14" does
| feel a _lot_ heavier.
| randomsofr wrote:
| I'm really looking to get a similar setup. I don't think they
| would do a refresh to the Studio this year, or if they do, it
| would probably come at the end of the year.
| djtriptych wrote:
| It's great. Hurt a little spending that much at once but it
| fixed so many small issues it just feels great.
| spockz wrote:
| I am as happy with my 13" M1 mbp 2020 as you with your. My only
| gripe is that the screen is too small and more importantly
| after two years I went from a stellar 21h battery life to 13h
| for lightweight work and it now also seems to drain on sleep.
| And it seems to lose charge quicker under load.
|
| The battery capacity is still reported as 91%of spec which does
| not explain this behaviour.
|
| I hope yours holds up better.
| bboygravity wrote:
| I lolled while reading this.
|
| I get like 45 minutes battery time out of my 1,5 year old
| Dell XPS 17. Not even enough for a meeting.
| djtriptych wrote:
| If you're this bboy gravity just want to say I'm a huge
| fan! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkrej5EW3Gg
| spullara wrote:
| I wonder if you have installed software over that time period
| that is doing a lot in the background. I'd check activity
| monitor and see if there is anything suspicious.
| killingtime74 wrote:
| How come in all these new announcement threads there is always
| someone talking about how their current setup is great. Good
| for you, really happy for you. It's not really relevant to the
| discussion right?
| geodel wrote:
| Its relevant because if current setup for people in various
| scenarios is working great more folks can compare their
| requirement relevant to them. They may decide to go for newer
| version which can be even better or buy older version if
| available and save some money in process.
| [deleted]
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Boring, zero innovation for years.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| > _MagSafe 3 charging_
|
| The biggest differences between v2 and v3 of MagSafe are:
|
| * v3 is 1 mm longer (doesn't fit v2 models)
|
| * v3 supports PD 3.1
|
| ...is that all?
|
| > _Thunderbolt 4 Type-C ports_
|
| ...these do NOT support PD 3.1, correct?
| thinker5555 wrote:
| This may be a stupid question, but does anyone know if you
| could charge through one of the Thunderbolt ports instead of
| having to use the magsafe connector? My work uses Macs for all
| employees, and they've been generous enough to supply me with 2
| docking stations (one for office, one for home) that both
| charge through a Thunderbolt port. I'm due for a MBP upgrade
| and they were specifically waiting on the M2 Pro/Max versions
| before doing mine, and I'm trying to figure out if I can stick
| with my old docks or if I'll need to request new ones.
| grecy wrote:
| Yes, you can charge from any of the USB-C ports.
|
| Some discussion here is saying the MagSafe will charge at
| 140W, while the USB-C ports will only charge at 100W, so it
| will be a bit slower.
| thinker5555 wrote:
| Thanks. I know that was the case with the M1 MBPs, but
| wasn't sure if that would carry over to the M2 versions,
| and I didn't see anything about charging via the USB-C
| ports in the press relese.
| enragedcacti wrote:
| Probably just aligning with the new Qi spec?
|
| https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/qi2-the-new-standard-for-wi...
|
| edit: should've rtfa'd, its the laptop magsafe
| rmccue wrote:
| That's (confusingly) a different MagSafe.
|
| Apple has MagSafe connectors for charging on laptops, which
| was the original MagSafe. The name comes from the connector
| being magnetic, and being "safe" since tripping over the
| cable would make it disconnect without pulling your laptop
| off the table. They discontinued this in favour of charging
| through USB-C cables/ports a while back.
|
| They then introduced magnetic charging for iPhones, similar
| to (but IIRC not exactly) their Qi charging support. This
| reused the MagSafe name since they didn't have any products
| with it. The evolution of this is speculated to be
| incorporated and standardised as Qi2.
|
| Then they introduced the MagSafe charging connector _back_ to
| their laptops (but updated), and so confusingly there 's two
| basically unrelated features both called MagSafe. Maybe
| that'll get cleared up a bit once Qi2 comes out.
| nfriedly wrote:
| I wouldn't call them unrelated. They're both charging
| connectors with magnets. (I know the iPhone one is
| wireless, but still.)
|
| Also, the laptop side is on it's third iteration, so at
| this point "MagSafe" is more of a category than a specific
| connector.
| qwytw wrote:
| Well MagSafe (the macbook charger one) is closer to USB-C
| in almost every way than it is to Wireless charging. I
| think it's just basically a different usb-c connector
| with a magnet attached.
| Filligree wrote:
| On the M1 Pro, the supplied power brick is a USB-C charger. You
| can plug it either into the Magsafe port or the C ports on the
| laptop, and it works the same either way.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Magsafe v3 supports PD 3.1, and the USB-C ports do not; this
| is not true
| Filligree wrote:
| Perhaps, but it's charging at the same rate regardless.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| Likely not, assuming they keep the same design for M1
| Pros.
|
| On the 16" M1 Pros, you could do magsafe charging at 140W
| (using higher wattage negotiated USB PD), however the
| USB-C ports were limited to 100W (96W?) and did not offer
| the full 140W charging using USB-C.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| No, the PD spec is much more than a wattage, "it's
| charging at the same rate" is not necessarily true
| nfriedly wrote:
| On my 2021 MBP, I have to use the USB-C/MagSafe cable to get
| 140W charging.
|
| Using a USB-C to USB-C cable (with the same charger) gets
| 100W charging instead because of a limitation on the laptop
| side (USB PD 3.1 on the MagSafe port vs USB PD 3.0 on the
| USB-C ports).
|
| Hopefully they're fixed that for this iteration of MBP, but I
| haven't seen that explicitly claimed anywhere.
| csdvrx wrote:
| That's when I realize how much my weird hardware preferences set
| me apart: I mostly care about an OLED screen and ECC ram. Then, a
| touchscreen supporting pen entry, and a good keyboard (with the
| edit keys like home/insert/pageup/pagedown directly accessible,
| bonus is there's also printscreen) especially if it's not a
| foldable or a tablet.
|
| Apple's got good CPU and battery life, but unless the core
| features are present, I really don't care.
|
| Here, 0/4 of my core features are present. It's certainly nice
| hardware, but it's not for me.
| factsarelolz wrote:
| You use a touch screen and pen on something other than a
| nonfoldable/tablet? Interesting.
|
| Thanks for the share.
| csdvrx wrote:
| Depending on how I hold my laptop, yes I like to click and
| scroll with my finger, especially when taking notes or
| mindmapping.
|
| @temptemptemp111 you seem to be shadowbanned, but your
| comment is spot on: OLED is about comfort. Sometimes I like
| working at night, sometimes in the daytime. I want a gorgeous
| screen that doesn't hurt my eyes, that can go very bright or
| very dark.
|
| Having a powerful CPU is irrelevant when working on the
| console. Having days of battery life is irrelevant when
| having a plug nearby.
|
| Would I take a powerful CPU and better battery life? Of
| course! But only if it was a bonus: for my specific usecase,
| there's 0 benefit from using a Mac. I'm sorry if that's
| hurtful to apple fanboys - you certainly have a wonderful
| machine if you care about battery life, a powerful CPU, and
| if you carry a cellphone with you at all times. I don't mean
| to be hurtful: I just have different tastes and priorities.
|
| Like, I refuse to use or carry a cellphone except on very
| specific circumstances. Replacing my laptop with a Mac would
| be a net negative, as having a 5G or LTE modem in my laptop
| is more valuable to me than a long battery life: integrated
| cellular connectivity enable me to spend 1h at a coffee shop
| without wifi: there're various options for PCs (Microsoft Go,
| Thinkpads, Dell...) but 0 option for a MacOS laptop with an
| internal modem.
|
| I'm looking at the Ryzen Thinkpad with great interest! But so
| far I haven't found one with both the screen I like (OLED)
| and the keyboard I like (pageup and pagedown around the up
| key), but as soon as I get 4/4 of my core requirements I'll
| move to AMD, as a Xeon is a bit power hungry :)
| mamby wrote:
| Touchscreen on laptop is like touch on a phone! once you
| use it you can't go back! but for Apple users only Apple
| can convince them...
| csdvrx wrote:
| > Touchscreen on laptop is like touch on a phone! once
| you use it you can't go back!
|
| Totally this! I'd put OLED and even 4k in there too.
|
| And I'd say that's true even for console work: 4k is
| great as it gets me crispy fonts in my terminal :)
|
| It's a net positive, as I use Windows so I don't have the
| DPI compatibility issues that still plague Linux
| distributions (especially with multiple displays)
| factsarelolz wrote:
| > I refuse to use or carry a cellphone
|
| > integrated cellular connectivity enable me to spend 1h at
| a coffee shop without wifi
|
| So you go a hour + without the ability to make phone calls
| or return texts? Can you dial 911 on your laptop if an
| emergency happens while on the way to the coffee shop? Does
| the coffee shop not have Wi-Fi or do you not use public Wi-
| Fi? How much is the additional data line for your laptop?
| Is it just data or voice too?
| temptemptemp111 wrote:
| No, not weird, it is called having good taste. For OLED that
| means DC dimming not PWM dimming - big difference. And with all
| of the Ryzen Thinkpads there is no excuse for not having ECC
| when all of the Ryzen mobile CPUs they're using already support
| it. I don't get the touchscreen thing, but you can always use
| one of those artist pads via USB and not affect your screen and
| be decoupled from the rest of your system (USB peripheral).
| AlanYx wrote:
| What laptop would you recommend that use DC dimming with
| OLED? Also, does this compromise color accuracy? (I was under
| the impression that PWM was used with OLED partly because
| OLED's color accuracy diminishes at lower brightness levels,
| but I'm not sure where I read that.)
| agloeregrets wrote:
| I have a Galaxy Book Pro 360 and a 14 inch Macbook Pro. The
| Galaxy book has like 2.2 of those core features (OLED and touch
| + Pen). The level of a beatdown that the Macbook Pro 14 gives
| on the OLED display is nuts, the brightness difference is crazy
| and gets even more crazy with HDR. OLED really isn't there yet
| against Mini LED for outdoor brightness performance. Something
| also feels wrong with the OLED white balance too but I think
| that's a fact of life in many windows machines color tuning,
| white just never feels....correct? It always feels like
| changing the display brightness is ALSO changing color tuning,
| white feels not just less bright but contrast falls in an
| uneven way.
|
| Even compared to the Samsung-built OLED in my iPhone 14 Pro,
| just massively different tuning.
| throwawaylinux wrote:
| What laptop do you use?
| csdvrx wrote:
| Thinkpads. I like the Fold https://csdvrx.github.io/ but it
| doesn't have ECC, so it's only 3/4 (the keyboard is not
| ideal, but it's a foldable, so I can bring my own keyboard,
| which grants the "keyboard" point)
|
| The P7x P5x and some of the previous P1 have Xeons and ECC,
| so it's 4/4 core requirements.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| fanapples going to bite. but its a legit view point.
| csdvrx wrote:
| Yeah I was a bit sad to see the rain of downvotes, but 1) I
| did expect that, even if HN may be better that other websites
| 2) it's against the rules to complain
|
| So I take it on the chin and I laugh all the way to my sofa
| with my ECC OLED 4K dual NVME "wonderful keyboard" thinkpad
| in my hands :)
|
| Different people like different things. If they're happy to
| get a Macbook Pro with a M2 Pro, I'm happy for them too!
| jdlyga wrote:
| Interestingly enough, I've noticed that Best Buy quietly cut
| their Macbook Pro M1 Pro / M1 Max 400 dollar discount to 134
| dollars. I guess they're hoping more sales will trickle in for
| people looking at the new models.
| Nevermark wrote:
| May have to upgrade my MBP.
|
| I have a Mac Mini M1 driving a 4k screen on my desk-facing wall.
| Exactly zero complaints! These M-series chips are really great.
|
| I will probably replace the Mini with an M2 Ultra Studio, if one
| comes out soon, but I can't say I really need it.
|
| (I highly recommend getting screens off desks and onto walls.
| Large 4K TVs are cheap. Less clutter, frees up desk space, easy
| to see & read from anywhere in the room, makes giving demos easy,
| and -< big bonus for me >- I don't need reading glasses to see
| it!)
| hajmo97 wrote:
| Does someone of you use the whole potential that this kind of
| chip offers ? What do you use it for ?
| david_allison wrote:
| Specced out M1 (except storage):
|
| * 32GB RAM would not have been sufficient, glad I went for 64.
|
| * CPU is exceptional, but significant gains would be seen with
| more power (or code/process optimisation): unit tests
| (Robolectric) still break the 'flow' threshold (1s). Xcode
| compiles + full test suite runs break the 'attention' threshold
| (10s).
|
| * GPU is occasionally useful, but I don't do much ML/video work
|
| Usage:
|
| * I have enough RAM to keep 3 IDEs open + various electron apps
| + Office Suite + Windows/Ubuntu VM + 2/3 phone emulators + up
| to a few hundred Chrome Tabs. Fans are silent and laptop is
| cold.
|
| * Fans spin heavily when running a full unit test suite
| (JVM/Android)
|
| * Fans spin heavily when gaming (via Parallels)
|
| * Fans spin slightly when running Stable Diffusion
| sergiomattei wrote:
| No, but that's why I love it so much.
|
| For my daily coding workflow, the fan never even spins. This is
| Docker, many containers, many many windows.
|
| With docker on, battery lasts a fair bit. Without it on,
| running on bare metal, could last me days.
| password1 wrote:
| I use it to have Xcode reboot faster after it crashes.
| hajmo97 wrote:
| This is exactly what makes Apple engineers get up every day,
| to deliver a better chip for this kind of use cases :D
| yewenjie wrote:
| I'm waiting for HN to reach a consensus so that I can decide
| whether to buy this one or the M1 MBP.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| What would possibly make the M1 MBP preferable to the new one?
| julienb_sea wrote:
| If you don't care about max current performance (frankly you
| probably don't), then picking up a used M1 pro or M1 max is a
| much better value proposition. It doesn't seem like the other
| upgrades are very substantial, maybe Wifi 6E but displays,
| design, otherwise it's likely to feel essentially the same.
| agloeregrets wrote:
| It's a spec bump, possibly meaningfully so but if you are on an
| Intel machine or want two monitors and can find a M1 14inch for
| ~$1500-$1700 that's a killer upgrade no matter what.
| DoingSomeThings wrote:
| Does the M1 14inch support 2 monitors? I was under the
| impression every M-based laptop only supports a single
| external monitor.
| sbuk wrote:
| Yes. Source: Runs an M1 14" Pro on 2 monitors.
| agloeregrets wrote:
| 14 inch M1 Pro supports two external displays, 14 inch M1
| Max Supports four, all four can be 5K.
|
| Sadly, Apple knows exactly how to get my money from me.
| masklinn wrote:
| > all four can be 5K.
|
| Only 3, the HDMI out is limited to 4K.
| agloeregrets wrote:
| Shoot you are right, they are port limited on the fourth
| display. (as the M1 Max has double the hardware from the
| M1 Pro so one can assume it can support quad 5K, but it
| has only three Thunderbolt 4.)
| enduser wrote:
| I am running two Studio Displays off of my M1 Pro 14-inch
| mrcarruthers wrote:
| It's only the air that is limited to a single monitor. I
| have an m1 pro and it's running two monitors daily. 4k, one
| 32:9 1440p ultrawide
| masklinn wrote:
| > I was under the impression every M-based
|
| That's the "base" M1/M2. The M Pro supports 2, and the M
| Max 4, up to 6k (except for the 4th display on the Max,
| because HDMI).
|
| M2P is also limited to a single display if you need 8K (not
| sure the M1P supported that at all).
| arange wrote:
| Happy to see more Wifi 6E finally on Apple products
| meerita wrote:
| My new job a week ago: -What macbook pro model do you want? 16 or
| 13? 16 please.
|
| Today, they announce m2 pro models hehe
| [deleted]
| mcculley wrote:
| Did they figure out how to put a cell modem in it?
| wslh wrote:
| Could you change your MacBook Pro if you bought (now an older)
| one one month ago?
| sandstrom wrote:
| Will this computer finally support daisy-chaining? Also known as
| Multi-Stream Transport (MST), it's from the DisplayPort 1.2 spec.
|
| It's the ability to connecting two displays via one cable.
|
| Any 5+ year old PC has support for it. But your $3,000 Macbook
| Pro doesn't.
| mulmen wrote:
| Well the OS level support for multiple monitors us essentially
| user-hostile so not sure why you would try this anyway. I gave
| up on dual monitors as soon as Ultrawides became available and
| my Mac life is better for it.
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| Probably not. Last I looked into it, it seemed like a driver
| issue, where macOS chooses to setup the MST screen as a mirror
| of the other MST display instead of a separate display.
| deanc wrote:
| As an alternative to this, you can grab a thunderbolt dock. You
| can input 2/3 monitors into this, and all your other
| peripherals - then one cable into your macbook.
|
| My Caldigit TS4 charges my macbook at 90W, has 2 x 27" monitors
| running at 120hz (i could go higher but i can't perceive the
| difference so i'll save the bandwidth), has 2 external drives
| and can read my SD card to import photos. The thing has so many
| ports and if you have lots of peripherals it doesn't matter how
| many ports your laptop has as you'll not want to bother
| plugging them in and out if you move around a lot (I do). I
| can't rate the TS4 highly enough.
| alach11 wrote:
| Maybe I'm being a bit sensitive to price, but $400 seems
| pretty expensive. Do you know of any cheaper alternatives?
| kika wrote:
| I have M1 Max Macbook Pro and two monitors daisy chained. Mbook
| -> OWC TB4 hub -> BenQ 3220U -> TB to DP => Dell 2718Q
|
| -> are TB cables => is DP (Display Port)
|
| OWC hub is optional, scheme works without it the same. I use
| the hub to connect also external 10G network and a card reader.
|
| NB: not an advice to buy BenQ PD3220U, see this:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/BenQ/comments/qsmvn2/pd3220u_kvm_bu...
| No solution so far. BenQ thinks it's the Apple bug, Apple
| probably thinks something, but doesn't tell.
| [deleted]
| nowherebeen wrote:
| I just checked the trade-in value for 16inch M1 Pro 10 core CPU
| 16 core GPU with 32GB on the Apple website. It's only worth
| $700USD. I would have thought they would pay more for a 1 year
| old laptop. I am not looking to upgrade, but am quite surprised
| by how low the trade-in value is.
| randyrand wrote:
| that's paltry
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| I'm sure you could sell it yourself for more than that. I'd
| certainly _buy_ it at _that_ price.
| manv1 wrote:
| It's better for you to sell it on the secondary market, the 16"
| MBP M1 should be worth about $1400-1600 USD in about a month
| after the M2 ships.
| rcarr wrote:
| Start at PS2149 in the UK. I bought an equivalent M1 last year
| for PS1729. Price increase of PS420. About a 25% increase. Wonder
| if that's closer to the true inflation figure rather than the
| official 11% narrative. Regardless, they look like good machines,
| surprised they went this low key with the announcement.
| HatchedLake721 wrote:
| PS1729? M1 Pro was PS1899 yesterday and for a very long time, I
| don't remember ever seeing PS1729.
| salzig wrote:
| i find it quite strange that the Mac Studio is still on M1. Even
| the Mini is already M2.
| sbuk wrote:
| Ultra hasn't been announced yet. They'll wait until that's
| production ready before offering it up.
| ant6n wrote:
| The cheapest model with 96GB is 4300USD. Yikes.
| fiznool wrote:
| I'm looking forward to picking up a second hand M1 Max mbp now
| that these new models are out. M1 is more than fast enough for
| me, and I'm specifically looking for a native 3 external monitor
| setup, without any DisplayLink shenanigans!
| arepublicadoceu wrote:
| So the battery life is alluring me to splurge the money for this.
| But I'm a bit worried because my wife laptop, bought in 2018,
| already have a 5% health life on its nvme. I don't worry as I can
| simply replace it but those macbooks have it soldered.
|
| So I guess my question is, what's the expected lifespan of their
| SSDs? My current laptop will turn 11 this year, and after battery
| and ssd replacement it still works great. Can I reasonably expect
| the same lifespan from macbooks?
| ericpauley wrote:
| Are you saying it's used 5% of its total life? That seems
| pretty good over 3+ years, for an estimated overall lifespan of
| 60 years. No doubt the machine will be replaced for some other
| reason by then.
| arepublicadoceu wrote:
| 5% left. Meaning that the ssd is almost dying.
| nfriedly wrote:
| I'd recommend taking it into an Apple store and asking them
| about it. I don't think I've ever in my life seen an SSD
| with less than 80-90% life left.
|
| Something has to have gone wrong for it to have burned up
| 95% of it's life in ~5 years of normal usage.
| dabernathy89 wrote:
| IIRC there was an issue early on with the M1 Macs that
| involved way higher than normal swap usage, and was
| potentially bad for SSDs. But I thought that was fixed
| within months.
| nfriedly wrote:
| Yeah, that sounds like a plausible culprit. And I
| wouldn't consider it outside the realm of possibility for
| Apple to replace the SSD for free - even if the laptop is
| now out of warranty.
| s3p wrote:
| Probably, but only in the higher storage models. The lifespan
| of SSD increases dramatically as you move from 500GB to 1-2 TB.
| If you REALLY want the longest lasting one then go 2TB. I went
| 1TB when I bought a macbook pro in 2013 and it lasted for about
| 7 years before the logic board had some fatal error that
| neither me nor apple techs were able to fix.
| [deleted]
| vanilla-latte wrote:
| One advantage that I have with the M1 Pro 32 GB RAM over my
| gaming desktop is that I'm able to run large ML models such as
| Bloom, Whisper, and Stable Diffusion with reasonable performance.
| ganoushoreilly wrote:
| Out of curiosity what are your desktop specs? I have stable
| diffusion running quite well on a few different systems of
| varying spec. That said, it's great to be able to take it _on
| the road_ with you.
| vanilla-latte wrote:
| My dev desktop has the following: - Ryzen 5950x - 16 GB RAM -
| 1070 8 GB
|
| The limiting factor was the VRAM. The M1 has the ability to
| use more VRAM than your typical gaming GPU because of the
| shared RAM.
|
| I see this as a big advantage.
| abraxas wrote:
| How are you running them so well? What do you use for your
| device since CUDA is obviously not supported and 'mps' is not
| very impressive, compared it to just about any NVidia GPU
| including the aging 1080ti[1]
|
| [1] https://sebastianraschka.com/blog/2022/pytorch-m1-gpu.html
| vanilla-latte wrote:
| I wouldn't say it runs well. It runs faster than my desktop
| CPU, but slower than my GPU.
| tiffanyh wrote:
| I love my M1 MacBook Pro but wowzer, these laptops are getting
| expensive.
| cloudengineer94 wrote:
| The M1 and M1 Pro chips are absolutely insane. Been using them
| ever since day 1 and for me there is no way to go back to using
| Arch Linux natively unless Qualcomm or someone else starts making
| some good ARM chips.
| maxim_b wrote:
| You embraced OS X now, or running Arch on a VM?
| [deleted]
| TMWNN wrote:
| Have the 14"'s outer dimensions changed any? I am wondering if my
| 2021's case can be reused.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| Of course I bought a new 14" MBP with M1 Pro two weeks ago.
|
| Looks like if i had waited, I could have paid the same price for
| faster CPU with more cores, faster wifi, and 8K HDMI output.
|
| I guess that's how it goes.
| orliesaurus wrote:
| in most countries you can return your MBP within 30 days of
| purchase for free upgrade
| Lramseyer wrote:
| Check the return policy on your laptop. You might still be
| within the return window!
| HatchedLake721 wrote:
| For the future, this is very useful
| https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#mac
| schrodinger wrote:
| Aren't you within the return window?
| Alex3917 wrote:
| You can return it within 14 days of receiving it.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| I did not know that, thank you!
|
| But looks like I mis-spoke, the thing was actually ordered
| Dec 29, delivered Dec 30.
|
| So actually two and a half weeks, a few days past 14, which
| does look like the return deadline in USA. I found a "check
| return eligibility" button... yep, nope.
| manv1 wrote:
| You're inside the return window.
| ZiiS wrote:
| Whilst I am utterly impressed with my M1 Pro; they are comparing
| to the "fastest Intel-based MacBook Pro" which is 4 years old
| when Intel was struggling anyway. Not at all representative of
| what they could have done with the latest Intel or AMD silicon.
| linsomniac wrote:
| They do also give, further down the page, some comparison with
| the M1 MAX, saying 20% faster (except for memory bandwidth
| which is twice as fast at 200GB/sec).
| tracker1 wrote:
| Yeah, it's a bit cherry picked, especially since the last gen
| Intel based macbooks had horrible throttling and fan maxing out
| issues... I think the cooling design was insufficient, or they
| should have lowered the max voltage slightly.
| nabakin wrote:
| Unfortunately no AV1 hardware support yet. Not sure why Apple
| isn't rushing to add support for the codec they helped create.
| achairapart wrote:
| Pro, Max, Ultra, any combination of these. I can't understand any
| of these. Not that it means anything more than an artificial
| fragmentation to bring in more upsell opportunities. Looks like
| 90s Apple again, at least from this point of view.
|
| I understand the old (simple and brilliant) four-quadrant is not
| going to fit anymore, but this is just the opposite extreme.
| sergiomattei wrote:
| It's not that complicated. Good, better, best.
|
| You can customize any of these with the specs you need on their
| website.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| Really? There's 4 processors and 2 generations, it's not that
| hard. Compare to intel:
| https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/details/pro...
| jslql wrote:
| With Intel higher = better.
|
| What's better, ultra or pro?
| masklinn wrote:
| Ultra since pro is the baseline adjective.
|
| Not that I find the naming any good but Max v Ultra would
| have been more of a head scratcher.
| jslql wrote:
| I assume Max is better since there's nothing higher than
| the maximum.
| masklinn wrote:
| Which is why it's more of a head scratcher. Pro < Max <
| Ultra.
|
| The Max is a Pro with (up to) double the number of GPU
| cores (and memory controllers), the Ultra is two maxes
| stapled together:
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/03/apples-m1-ultra-
| tape...
| wpm wrote:
| Apple Marketing under Joz has been in love with this Pro-
| Max-Ultra tiering, and it's mind boggling. Very very
| confusing to have Max(imum) be the middle tier. If Ultra
| was Ultimate, maybe it'd make more sense, but Pro-Ultra-
| Max just makes more sense.
|
| But even Max kinda stinks because it's basically the same
| word as "Macs". Max Macs, Macs Max. Ugh
| achairapart wrote:
| Also: Pro is messing up with the well-known and familiar
| "Pro" as in Macbook Pro and Mac Pro. I.e.: "Hey, look at
| my new Macbook Pro M2 Pro!"
|
| Then, this is also used - completely unrelated to the CPU
| in there - in the iPhone line-up, in a whole new mixed-up
| level ("look at my new iPhone Pro Max Ultra!"), as well
| as randomly for other hardware (AirPod Max?).
|
| What a mess. Actually, this is worse then 90s Apple.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| The very first processor in the list is the i7-1365UE,
| which is a lower number than processors from 10 years ago.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| > With Intel higher = better.
|
| So which is better, the 13500HX, or the 1365UE? What about
| the 13620H?
|
| What about the 13900/13900F/13900E/13900H/13900HK/13900T/13
| 900TE/13900HX/13900K/13900KF/13900KS? Which is better? And
| the 13905H is clearly better than all of them because
| higher = better right?
|
| Intel has an absolute shit naming scheme.
| verst wrote:
| I just ordered the M2 Pro Mac Mini that was also released. The
| Mac Studio was a bit excessive for my music production hobby
| needs, but I do need the extra cores of the M2 Pro models. Really
| thrilled they released this.
| symlinkk wrote:
| Where can I buy the old one at a discount?
| dmitrygr wrote:
| craigslist?
| wrldos wrote:
| Pricing has gone crazy here in the UK. Paid PS1899 for my M1 Pro.
| Same spec M2 Pro is PS2199.
|
| Edit: at this rate when my previous gen one expires I'm going to
| think seriously about shifting back to ThinkPads...
| a_humean wrote:
| I'm afriad you are going to need to get used to it.
|
| The PS is depreciating against the dollar, and wages in the UK
| have been stagant for 10+ years and are set to remain stagant
| for another 10 based upon current forecasting.
|
| Based upon current trends countries like Poland and Slovakia
| are going to overtake the UK on many economic metrics within a
| generation, which is both a credit to the growth of those
| countries and the enmourous decline of the UK relative to
| places like Germany, France, and the US.
|
| Imports are going to just keep getting more and more expensive.
| wrldos wrote:
| You're not wrong. Fun times :(
| [deleted]
| automatic6131 wrote:
| >Based upon current trends countries like Poland and Slovakia
| are going to overtake the UK on many economic metrics
|
| I'll believe that when I see it
|
| >the enmourous decline of the UK relative to places like
| Germany, France
|
| The UK, Germany and France are declining in lockstep,
| actually. In different ways but all declining
|
| >the US
|
| Yes this is the killer.
| mpweiher wrote:
| > I'll believe that when I see it
|
| You're seeing it right now, if you actually look.
|
| "UK economy could be comparable to "Slovakia" in 10 years -
| says economist Duncan Weldon"
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5g_S9BBtqw
|
| > The UK, Germany and France are declining in lockstep,
|
| Nope.
|
| https://youtu.be/R5g_S9BBtqw?t=155
|
| "Britain is unique among the G7 countries in that GDP per
| head is still below that when the pandemic hit."
|
| Notice the "unique" bit.
| KuzMenachem wrote:
| Genuinely curious: why/how are these countries declining in
| your view?
| VLM wrote:
| Specifically, as a Chinese product, the ratio of UK economy
| vs Chinese economy is relevant.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Apple products are produced in Chinese Special Economic
| Zones (SEZs), so they have to be technically imported into
| China if they are sold there, and are produced with
| machines and labor paid for in dollars.
| droopyEyelids wrote:
| Do yourself a favor and find a way to test that Intel laptop
| before you switch. I have to use one for work and the
| performance penalty is massive.
|
| Fans blasting, laggy, hot, three hour battery life. Its a
| substantial step backwards
| wrldos wrote:
| Yeah I have a rather large and horrible stacked Dell 7670
| here. I mostly use my MBP as a desktop machine though.
| Not_John wrote:
| A new Thinkpad x1 with an i7, 16gb ram and 1tb ssd is at
| PS2400. And you cant get more than 16gb of ram. imho the
| MacBook Pro is not unreasonable expensive.
| wrldos wrote:
| I can get an i7 T14 gen 3 with 16GB RAM and stick a new SSD
| and another 16Gb RAM in it for < PS1500
| shishy wrote:
| I do get sticker shock at the prices, but I have to say I still
| use my 2015 MBP for dev work and it's been serving me well.
| That's quite the longevity... I'd hope if I got an M2 (thinking
| about upgrading in a year or two), that it lasts a similar
| duration. ~8 years, I wouldn't mind shelling out that price,
| especially since it pays me back so quickly (some consulting
| work).
|
| Have to check to see how reliable those thinkpads are but I
| also just enjoyed the physical experience of a Mac (know it's
| not for everyone and subjective)
| bookofjoe wrote:
| Concur re: longevity: my 2012 MacBook Pro still runs
| perfectly. 11 years!
| wrldos wrote:
| I ran thinkpads for years. There is a nice market for
| previous generation ones new in box with 3 year next business
| day warranties for stupid money. I got my daughter a 13 month
| old T495s for PS600 for example. That's still under warranty
| now.
|
| But yeah I'll bitch and moan and just give apple the money
| like I always do now n
| unholiness wrote:
| I used a 2013 MBP for work, and when work upgraded me to a
| 2019 MBP I kept the 2013 for myself.
|
| Since then, the 2019 macbook has been having tons of
| problems, crashing, thermal issues, software issues, keyboard
| issues. But the 2013 has been working like a dream. My
| coworkers have many similar experiences.
|
| Mid-2010s was definitely a peak for macbooks. Hopefully
| M1s/M2s will be another peak.
| julienb_sea wrote:
| 2019 MBPs unfortunately weren't great. I had horrible
| battery life issues after years of heavy use and got my
| work to replace it with a M1 max 16". Night and day
| difference, a huge huge step up. The thermal issues on the
| 2019 models were really ridiculous.
| shishy wrote:
| I think after 2015 they were crap until the M1s which seem
| to be quite good so far
| dochtman wrote:
| Difference in EUR is also pretty crazy. My 16" M1 Max was about
| EUR 1000 cheaper than a similarly specced M2 Max, about a 28%
| increase.
| evgen wrote:
| The pound has gone to shit and the UK price includes VAT. Take
| away VAT and use current exchange rates and you are paying a
| $200 premium in the UK, so 10% above US price is actually a
| smaller difference than it has been in the recent past when the
| pound was $1.5 but the only difference between the two price
| lists was changing a $ for a PS.
| soneil wrote:
| They hedge in where they think the currency is going too, as
| they appear to avoid changing a price between releases.
|
| So it's USD * exchange rate * VAT + pessimism.
| joefarish wrote:
| I'm sure part of that is the pound tanking against the dollar!
| wrldos wrote:
| Yeah likely but the thing is that Apple prices never go down
| even if the exchange rate becomes favourable.
| selectodude wrote:
| I can't think of a single currency that has been
| strengthening against the dollar in the last fifteen years.
| middle-marathon wrote:
| CHF
| michpoch wrote:
| We did not get cheaper Apple devices, no worries. 8% VAT
| helps a bit though.
| middle-marathon wrote:
| Oh I'm well aware!
| xuki wrote:
| This is false. Apple adjusted price for products when
| exchange rates changed. They don't do it daily, usually it
| happens at product releases like today.
| deergomoo wrote:
| Yeah, I get that it's a reflection of the state of things but
| it doesn't make it any less disheartening. I just expect every
| new generation of their products to come with a PS100-400 price
| jump now.
|
| Or, in the case of the iPads last time round, a price jump for
| the exact same product.
| MAGZine wrote:
| Is it strange these were not announced during a live event?
| ascagnel_ wrote:
| Not really -- Apple has increasingly pushed more niche updates
| (spec bumps and ancillary product lines like the mini) via
| press release, and reserves their keynotes for more notable
| updates like laptop redesigns and broad-appeal products like
| the phone and tablet.
| dbbk wrote:
| If I remember right the first MacBook Pro with a touch bar
| wasn't announced at an event either, which you'd think they'd
| want to demo in person.
| cube2222 wrote:
| They sometimes do this if there's nothing more than a spec
| bump, but also means there might be some other big releases
| coming soon.
| bertil wrote:
| Usually, those spec bumps are placeholders to allow the
| company to cancel more significant, riskier announcements
| without giving a surprisingly short presentation. Next
| Keynote is expected in March, which feels a bit far from now
| than usual for that pattern.
|
| It could be that the recent events in China made that
| announcement tricky, and given the worrying speculation,
| Apple wanted to reassure people.
| ribit wrote:
| They just published an additional product introduction
| presentation on YouTube. I don't think Apple did live events
| since Covid.
| mcny wrote:
| > Is it strange these were not announced during a live event?
|
| My conspiracy theory / gut reaction is they want to hide this
| launch? or at least don't want too many eyes on it? I don't
| know why I think this but yeah. I have no insider information.
| This is an unsubstantiated guess.
| Gareth321 wrote:
| Extremely underwhelming improvement. The M1 to M2 general
| performance gap is minor at best.
| dbbk wrote:
| That is generally how chips go year-over-year. The Intel
| MacBook Pros were never that dramatic a leap either.
| esskay wrote:
| To be fair it doesn't need to be a massive leap every CPU
| upgrade. The M1 was already a pretty damn powerful chip.
| jxi wrote:
| [dead]
| rsynnott wrote:
| Not really; there are no significant changes here beyond a
| faster processor, and they've historically usually not bothered
| with a live event for that.
| ask_b123 wrote:
| There's this: https://youtu.be/6Ij9PiehENA
| anovikov wrote:
| Gimme a M2 Max Macbook air with 15 inches...
| peanuty1 wrote:
| I'll take any Apple Silicon MacBook Air with 15".
| eptcyka wrote:
| Can't wait for good linux support on these, then they will be
| great.
| 10xDev wrote:
| Building a PC doesn't make much sense anymore for most people now
| with cloud computing, Steam Deck, Apple silicon and GPU prices
| being ridiculously high.
| f8 wrote:
| I love the MBP with the M1 chip, but my biggest gripe is it lacks
| dual monitor support natively. I shouldn't have to use
| DisplayLink to get the second monitor working. Just been working
| on a single monitor since I got this thing because I heard
| DisplayLink is a buggy resource hog.
| acchow wrote:
| Can you explain what you mean by "lacks dual monitor support
| natively"? I run two monitors on my MBP M1.
| deergomoo wrote:
| I believe OP has the 13" MacBook Pro, which runs the plain M1
| from the Air, not the M1 Pro or Max of the 14" and 16"
| models.
| f8 wrote:
| Ahh so that's what it is. I was confused because my
| coworker has the MBP with an M1 and dual monitor works fine
| for him. But that ran contrary to all research on my MBP
| specifically. Seems I'm due for an upgrade at some point in
| that case...
| jaimehrubiks wrote:
| No graphs and all comparison is with Intel's Macs, not with M1s.
| [deleted]
| r00fus wrote:
| All PR is meant to sell something. Those with M1s are mostly
| already happy (and most of those in-the-know crowd are aware
| that M2 isn't as big a step up from M1).
|
| However if you're an Intel MBP holdout, those are the folks who
| are the target market for this announcement. I have both (M1
| Air, 15" 2018 MBP) and I've stopped using my Intel MBP despite
| it's bigger screen and better storage/RAM.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| I assume their main target is those still on Intel Macs as
| those who are already happy with M1 can't really justify
| already upgrading to M2 as it doesn't offer any major bump.
| joakleaf wrote:
| There are comparisons with M1 Pro/Max:
|
| "MacBook Pro with M2 Pro features a 10- or 12-core CPU with up
| to eight high-performance and four high-efficiency cores for up
| to 20 percent greater performance over M1 Pro. "
|
| "MacBook Pro with M2 Max pushes workflows to the extreme with a
| much larger GPU featuring up to 38 cores and delivering up to
| 30 percent greater graphics performance over M1 Max"
| lordleft wrote:
| Not quite true, I see some comparisons made to the "previous
| generation" which are clearly M1s
| 7ewis wrote:
| Was looking for comparisons with the M1 too, they do briefly do
| a few further down - but I'm guessing it's not worth the
| upgrade.
| Ditiris wrote:
| There are several comparisons scattered throughout the
| announcement:
|
| - Rendering titles and animations in Motion is up to 80 percent
| faster1 than the fastest Intel-based MacBook Pro and up to 20
| percent faster5 than the previous generation.
|
| - Compiling in Xcode is up to 2.5x faster^1 than the fastest
| Intel-based MacBook Pro and nearly 25 percent faster^5 than the
| previous generation.
|
| - Image processing in Adobe Photoshop is up to 80 percent
| faster^1 than the fastest Intel-based MacBook Pro and up to 40
| percent faster^5 than the previous generation.
|
| Those numbers are somewhat surprising since they're for M2 Pro,
| and later on in they say the M2 Max, presumably faster than the
| M2 Pro, "delivers up to 20 percent greater performance over M1
| Max."
| rc_mob wrote:
| M1 is super fast already. This is crazy
| [deleted]
| tfrutuoso wrote:
| Intel and AMD have a lot of catching up to do on the hardware
| front. Software wise... meh.
| college_physics wrote:
| How would this compare with the best current intel based laptop
| (running linux). Primarily cost-wise and computational
| performance wise. The comparisons offered are with previous
| macbook models and that is not particularly interesting or
| illuminating if you are not an existing user.
| londons_explore wrote:
| In the feature list, the most underwhelming item to me is the
| '1080p FaceTime HD camera'.
|
| Aren't pretty much all cameras at least 1080p by now? I'd expect
| a top of the line laptop to have a multi-megapixel camera able to
| push 240fps for slowmo and windowing abilities to allow software
| zoom while still outputting a high enough resolution feed that
| someone viewing on another macbook pro can't see the pixels (ie.
| more than 1080p please!).
|
| Heck, on a top of the line macbook, you could even have cameras
| on each corner so that clever processing could be done to get
| multiple angles and automatically pretend to have a 2nd cameraman
| for closeups from another angle.
|
| Can anyone provide insight why Apple didn't put more effort into
| cameras?
| traceroute66 wrote:
| > In the feature list, the most underwhelming item to me is the
| '1080p FaceTime HD camera'.
|
| Why ?
|
| Most people use their laptop webcams for Skype with friends or
| Zoom/Teams with colleagues. The camera is merely a means to
| display your face to others and I doubt anyone else (
| _especially_ on work sessions) gives a shit about what your
| image looks like.
|
| Do people really need to stare at your wrinkles, nose-hair and
| unshaven face in 8k ? Most people also use their webcam in
| godawful lighting conditions, so it matters even less.
|
| Added to which, in relation to the MacBook Pros, the clue is in
| the name "Pro". People will be buying it as a work machine. Who
| cares about the webcam (or indeed, if you look at certain other
| web-forums where people are complaining about the lack of Space
| Gray 16-inch ...who cares about the colour !).
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _Can anyone provide insight why Apple didn 't put more effort
| into cameras?_
|
| I assume because for users who need more than a basic webcam,
| Apple has Continuity Camera12. And of course there are lots of
| people at the high-end using DSLRs as their webcam.
|
| 1 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213244 2
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209037
| skinnymuch wrote:
| I use my phone for stuff. I don't want to kill the battery
| and it's usage as a webcam all day. Maybe that's just me
| though, I'm in Zoom meetings all day.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Contrary opinion: I don't see the need for a high-quality
| camera on a laptop. I can't think of another good use besides
| Zoom calls and Facetime and the like, when your counterparties
| in the meeting are all going to be seeing a scaled-down image
| anyway.
|
| Stick in some decent and cheap camera, and put the money into
| stuff that matters like computing capabilities, RAM, storage,
| networking, screen, etc.
| inadequatespace wrote:
| Any use besides... one of the most common uses of the laptop
| in general in this remote-work era...
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Right, and you don't need an ultra-HD camera for your face
| to appear in a small tile on someone else's remote screen.
| [deleted]
| alach11 wrote:
| Who says it's a small tile? It's common for me to have
| meetings where nobody is sharing screen. In a one-on-one
| meeting, someone's face might be taking up my entire
| screen as we talk.
| sefrost wrote:
| Sometimes my team record short presentations or updates to
| each other to share in Slack and it's nice to be in higher
| quality. It's noticeable when someone is using a laptop
| camera or something else.
| lordswork wrote:
| With the recent developments in real-time video upscaling,
| maybe higher resolution cameras will be made obsolete for video
| calls, the main use case of laptop cameras.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| No idea why they don't just stick one of the iPhone cameras in
| there. Heck, use the last gen camera. If the camera isn't too
| big for the iphone then it's not too big for a laptop-
| especially with the notch.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| iPhone cameras are absurdly thick compare to the thickness of
| a laptop lid. If you've noticed, they've also gotten even
| thicker over the year (the camera bump has gotten thicker).
| Nobody will want a laptop lid as thick as their iPhone +
| camera bump.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Even the front (selfie) camera?
| zamadatix wrote:
| My iPhone 14 Pro is at least twice as thick (not counting
| bump) as the MacBook lid and the selfie camera is only
| 4k@30/1080@60. Not sure if there is a clever way to pack
| the camera or not but it doesn't sound good at first
| check.
| mrcarruthers wrote:
| Yeah. The back camera sits behind the screen whereas the
| front one pokes through it. I wouldn't be surprised if
| they were fairly even in terms of thickness.
| hajile wrote:
| That's to upsell their new iPhone feature where you can use
| your iphone as your camera instead.
|
| More seriously, there just isn't room in the 2-3mm thick screen
| to put a better camera and lens.
|
| I'd also note that megapixels aren't everything. My nearly
| decade-old Logitech C920 will run circles around the webcam in
| any laptop webcam I've seen.
| staindk wrote:
| I think any effort being put into laptop cameras these days
| (and for the last 5+ years) is to make them smaller in all
| dimensions.
|
| I'm guessing companies have found that it's always a trade-off
| between camera quality and bezel size, and a thinner bezel
| impresses people more than a better camera.
|
| I find Apple webcams perform better in video calls than
| most/all others, so they don't really have much to worry about.
| If you do want some insanely high quality "webcam", you could
| buy that magsafe gimmick they showed off last year that allows
| you to use your iPhone's back cameras as the webcam for your
| MacBook.
| ehzy wrote:
| My understanding is that it's actually quite difficult to fit a
| high quality camera into a laptop lid. If you look at how thin
| the lid is you'll notice it's at least twice as thin as a cell
| phone.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Doesn't stop them using compound-eye like designs... They can
| be very thin and have 100+ 'cameras' over just a few square
| millimeters, all using the same CCD.
|
| As a bonus, they (after a bit of processing) output 3d
| information, allowing them to use the same system for face ID
| etc.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Surely these are either much more expensive or much lower
| resolution though?
| brundolf wrote:
| Until very recently, MacBooks were famously stuck with 720p
| webcams. So from that perspective 1080p is a feature worth
| mentioning
|
| In any case, I personally don't really care how much fine
| detail my friends and coworkers can see when I'm talking with
| them. If I were a streamer or something I might care, but those
| people probably have dedicated hardware. I think for the
| average person 1080p is enough
| f311a wrote:
| I think 32GB of RAM should be the base for PRO models. In a lot
| of countries, custom models take almost two months of waiting.
| The M2 Max models have 32GB, but they cost $4000.
| peanuty1 wrote:
| That's ridiculous. A lot of people buy the MacBook Pro simply
| because the only other MacBook has a small 13" screen.
| lazyvar wrote:
| will this support multiple monitors?
| sandstrom wrote:
| It still doesn't support daisy-chaining, aka. Multi-Stream
| Transport (MST) from the DisplayPort 1.2 spec.
|
| Basically, connecting two displays via one cable.
|
| An 5 year old PC supports it. Sad.
| ilikejam wrote:
| Yes.
| lazyvar wrote:
| Thanks.
| znpy wrote:
| i'm already using two external displays and the built-in one
| with my m1 macbook pro
| mgraupner wrote:
| Yes, as the predecessor supported multiple monitors this one
| will too. It's also in the specs on apple.com.
| lazyvar wrote:
| Missed that, thanks.
| [deleted]
| pineconewarrior wrote:
| M2 Pro supports 3, M2 supports 2
| doerig wrote:
| This is incorrect, the M2 supports a single, M2 Pro supports
| up to 2 and the M2 Max up to 4 external displays.
| gigatexal wrote:
| 96GB of ram is nice. Gonna cost my firstborn and all my money but
| nice.
| galleywest200 wrote:
| I have been waiting to buy a new M1 14-inch Pro until after I had
| paid off my car. This is perfect timing for me.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| Where is the new 27" iMac? That's what I want to know. I ended up
| buying legacy Intel Macs for staff because the extra screen real-
| estate is really useful.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| What, people don't like me pointing out a big gaping hole in
| their product selection? pffft
| jmull wrote:
| Don't hold your breath.
|
| If they intended a 27" iMac I think you would have seen it
| already.
|
| At this point I think you either go with the 24" one or
| something like the mini with an external monitor of whatever
| size you like.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| You might be right, though I don't know why they'd do that.
| lwhalen wrote:
| What is up with the gigantic notch? Deal-killer for me,
| personally. My Intel MBP works just fine so long as I disable
| Intel TurboBoost.
| ClassyJacket wrote:
| The only thing that's in there is a very low quality webcam and
| an ambient light sensor so as far as I can tell it's 90% empty
| black space.
| johncalvinyoung wrote:
| it's not magical, but if Apple's 1080p camera is 'very low
| quality', I have plenty of experience on potato-cams to talk
| about, even in the previous generation.
|
| I also suspect that the design was intended for Face ID, but
| that obviously hasn't happened yet. I'd keep touch ID, thank
| you very much.
| jffry wrote:
| The screen protrudes up into what would otherwise be a solid
| black bezel on either side of the camera notch, making the
| screen area taller than 16:10 aspect ratio.
|
| The OS puts menu items and icons in that bonus space, freeing
| up _more_ of the uninterrupted rectangular main body of your
| screen for your apps.
|
| I think if you go into fullscreen mode with an app, it'll blank
| out the area to either side of the notch and just use the main
| screen space (or maybe that's configurable for notch-aware
| software to decide? IDK)
| darkstar999 wrote:
| I never notice it. It's usually dead space of the menu bar. I
| agree that it is a strange design, but I don't think it should
| be a deal killer for anyone.
| dartdartdart wrote:
| 4k 240hz? I don't think HDMI 2.1 even supports that. How can that
| be? Displayport 2.1 barely supports that
| jrockway wrote:
| Compression. Apparently 10k@100Hz is possible.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_Stream_Compression
|
| (Depending on your definition of compression, my monitor shows
| more colors than there are particles in the Universe at 1
| billion frames per second. It's just that there's a little bit
| of quality loss from the compression.)
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Strange that Apple still isn't offering OLED screens when most
| other laptop makers are this year...
| ribit wrote:
| Manufacturing such large volume of high-end OLED displays with
| parameters Apple needs is not economically feasible at the
| moment. Other brands can afford it because a) they ship much
| fewer OLED-equipped laptops than Apple does mini-LED equipped
| ones and b) the brightness/dynamic range is not the same.
| agloeregrets wrote:
| My work machine is a 14 inch Macbook Pro and my personal
| machine is a Samsung Galaxy Book Pro 360.
|
| The Galaxy Book has a Samsung OLED (I also had a Galaxy
| Chromebook 4K OLED), it is a beautiful display with up to 400
| nits brightness....
|
| The 14 inch macbook pro lays a massive beatdown on it in an
| extremely hardcore way: Up to 1000 nits full display brightness
| with HDR capabilities up to 1,600 nits.
|
| OLED displays are limited on peak brightness and it is brutal
| when you see it, the Macbook Pro 14 actually reduces peak
| brightness to 100 more than a standard OLED display to save
| battery. but grab a tweak like this: https://www.getvivid.app/
| and you can crank it all the way up to 1000.
| bayindirh wrote:
| They tend to not sacrifice longevity over flashy technologies.
| They migrated to OLED very late in iPhone when compared to
| other manufacturers, too.
|
| The last thing I want is a burn mark on my laptop screen
| because of static parts of my IDEs and such.
| DannyBee wrote:
| "They tend to not sacrifice longevity over flashy
| technologies. "
|
| What? In what universe is this true? They spent generations
| of macbooks on flashy keyboards that didn't work, etc.
|
| Trying to pain Apple's inability to keep up in certain area
| as them trying to care about longevity is hilarious. In the
| end - it's not about longevity at all, it's almost certainly
| about whether they can get it at the price point they want,
| in the volume they want.
|
| That's it.
| bayindirh wrote:
| Well, when they screw up design, they do it in a
| spectacular fashion, yes.
|
| Considering I buy a new MacBook every decade and they just
| endure the torture I put them through (I don't abuse them
| though), I can say that they are pretty well built
| machines.
|
| Same is true for my 7 year iPhone cycle.
|
| I pay similar price to top tier laptops of other big
| brands, and get what I pay for. Use it for a decade, move
| the machine to spare and get a new one. When one does this
| with a thinkpad, we applaud them. When someone does it with
| a MacBook, we don't believe them. Funny.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| > _" when they screw up design, they do it in a
| spectacular fashion"_
|
| So they _do_ sacrifice for flashiness?
|
| > _" I buy a new MacBook every decade"_
|
| Oh, a _lot_ has happened in the last decade. This is an
| anecdote about 1 or 2 machines you 've owned.
| klodolph wrote:
| "Torture" here is the wear and tear that a user inflicts
| on a device over years of use.
| bayindirh wrote:
| No, they make engineering mistakes while trying new
| things. We call companies stagnant when they don't try,
| and we forgive them for trying if they are not Apple. But
| everyone loves to hate Apple.
|
| I'm currently using a 2014 MacBook Pro and a 2020 M1
| MacBook Air. I have also seen and supported a lot of
| intermediate machines at work. We don't service them
| unless somebody spills something liquid on their
| keyboards.
|
| So, while I owned a few of these things, I have seen and
| supported way more machines, and my judgement stands
| based on this experience.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| So we've walked it back from "not sacrificing longevity
| over flashy technologies" to "mistakes while trying new
| things".
|
| Longevity is a mistake? New things aren't flashy
| technologies?
|
| > _" we forgive them for trying if they are not Apple"_
|
| Actually every so often Google get criticized! Weird
| right? Remember "Motion Sense"? Neither do I.
| Oddskar wrote:
| > They tend to not sacrifice longevity over flashy
| technologies.
|
| Hah! That gave me a good chuckle.
|
| There's nothing that screams "longevity" as going _out of
| your way_ to make all devices utterly irreparable.
| taylodl wrote:
| My daily driver is the "irreparable" 2012 MBP Retina. You
| may remember this machine as the one everybody bitched
| about because the RAM and SSD were soldered into the
| mainboard and weren't upgradeable or replaceable?
|
| Let's see, it's 2023, hmmmm, seems the machine is coming up
| on 11 years. IDK about you but I think 11 years is
| incredible longevity for a laptop. You know, it just might
| be that making the machine "irreparable" has been key to
| its longevity.
| bayindirh wrote:
| I'm still using my 2008 MacBook Pro's MagSafe adapter via
| MagSafe 2 converter and never unpacked my newer
| (personal) MacBook Pro's one.
|
| It's dirty, but not frayed and working as well as the
| first day.
|
| Edit: Do you need photos? :)
| Oddskar wrote:
| I will take your word for it, obviously your experience
| is the same for all of the Macbooks of that generation
| which are still being used today.
| ant6n wrote:
| My 2013 MBP is a car wreck. Screen broke at some point
| had to be replaced. The second battery is now so bad it
| won't even turn on anymore when plugged in. I think
| Bluetooth is dead too. All USB ports are dead too -
| although that one was "my" fault since I plugged in a
| broken cd Rom drive that apparently nuked the USB ports -
| didn't think that was even possible. When on, the thing
| often had the fans blowing at full speed... Im on like my
| fifth charger, they're all frayed garbage. definitely not
| a fun experience at this point.
|
| I guess if u keep a laptop stationary at your desk and
| plugged in at all times, then it could last 11 years.
| Although the very expensive 8gb of ram from back then is
| basically useless today.
| atonse wrote:
| Is OLED even flashy anymore?
| bayindirh wrote:
| Not for small screens, but for big, high density, low
| latency, almost always on screens.
|
| So I consider it flashy for TVs and monitors.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Like the 30-pin connector's longevity? The lightning
| connector's? _Physical_ Esc keys?
| bayindirh wrote:
| I had three devices with 30-pin connector, and have another
| three with Lightning connector. I _never_ replaced a female
| connector, or _any_ cable which connects to these
| connectors, made by Apple or otherwise.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Exactly, 30-pin connectors' longevity faded quickly, so
| they started using Lightning for new devices (on its way
| out). They sure were flashy though!
| boplicity wrote:
| Apple laptops unfortunately give me severe eye strain and
| headaches; I don't know why. I'm on a laptop with a beautiful
| OLED screen now, and my eyes are much, much happier. I would
| switch back to Apple if they offered OLED. I doubt they will,
| though. They're keen on mini-led, which is inferior in my
| opinion.
| nicoburns wrote:
| I think they're aiming for micro-led, which is basically the
| same as OLED but not using inorganic LEDs so they don't
| degrade. They're using mini-led as a stop-gap.
| Filligree wrote:
| QDLED seems like a nice option as well, but I'm not sure
| how easy it'd be for them to purchase. I'm very happy with
| my QDLED desktop monitor though.
| dbbk wrote:
| The Mini-LED screen is not great though. Sometimes I
| actually miss LCD. The brightness isn't uniform (it
| vignettes towards the edge), and you get lighting artefacts
| when quickly switching from a black screen (eg switching
| tabs).
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| I had the same issue (very severe headache), and this is my
| solution: https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/rh9bdm
| /semiwork...
|
| It's not what expected, it's disappointing, and I'll switch
| to a new type of display as soon as possible.
| AlanYx wrote:
| In case PWM is an issue for you, the new Macbook Air M2
| might be worth trying since it finally ditches PWM.
| ant6n wrote:
| It doesn't help that they are shiny mirrors that force your
| concentration to keep focussed on the content on screen and
| not yourself or the stuff behind you. I wish they had a
| properly matte option. Back when I still used an mbp 12h a
| day I had these seasons of eye strain that I mostly worked-
| around by setting the screen black and white.
| ynoxinul wrote:
| I had the same problem. For me it was font antialiasing: eyes
| try to focus on the blurry text. After disabling the
| antialiasing I can stare at the screen for ages without any
| eye strain.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| If Hector Martin doesn't say that they fixed the memory-mapping
| bug in their PCIe controller[0] I think it's safe to say that
| we're not getting a new Mac Pro this year.
|
| And to be honest, the whole concept of a Mac Pro goes against the
| design philosophy of Apple Silicon. The whole point of those
| chips is to maximize efficiency by having everything on-die or
| very close to the chip. For example, the M2 Max has like eight
| memory channels in a _laptop_ - you could not do that even with
| CAMM[1] modules.
|
| A desktop machine without replaceable RAM or slots that can
| accommodate GPUs is going to be a nonstarter no matter how good
| the the SoC's integrated accelerators are. A significant chunk of
| the cost of the Mac Pro is just the fancy desktop case,
| specifically designed to accommodate lots of expansion cards and
| compute accelerators. If you don't care about slots, you can just
| buy a Mac Studio for less money than the Pro. If you do want
| slots, only being able to plug in storage and I/O devices and
| nothing else is going to be a huge drag.
|
| [0] Apple Silicon PCIe controllers have a unique limitation in
| that they prohibit accessing external memory devices. This is why
| Thunderbolt eGPUs don't work - the M1 and M2 can't actually write
| to the memory on the GPUs.
|
| [1] Compression Attached Memory Module, a JEDEC standard for a
| thin dual-channel RAM card promoted by Dell to allow socketed
| high-performance RAM on business laptops.
| trollied wrote:
| I was thinking that they'd go down the Risc PC route (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risc_PC ) - allow expansion cards
| with both CPUs and memory on. Apple already trialled this with
| the accelerator cards in the current Mac Pro.
|
| Obviously there would be a penalty for off-die memory access,
| but I'm sure somebody cleverer than me could think of a nice
| way of architecting such a beast.
| agloeregrets wrote:
| One of the thoughts on how a mac pro would work was to make the
| SOC/Memory combo an Add-in card and then use an Infinity
| Fabric-like interconnect on the motherboard with some nutty
| controller to allow clean intercommunication to split off
| instructions.
|
| By doing this, massively multithreaded workloads would not see
| any real impact...as long as you don't need to send anything
| card-to-card. Finally, (assuming the M2 Ultra maxes out at
| 192Gb ram ) this enables adding in 1 to maybe 6 M2 Ultras,
| topping out just over 1TB ram. This almost starts to work but
| will fail if your tasks can't be cleanly cut up into 192GB
| chunks, maybe that's the magic of that controller.
| dijit wrote:
| > This is why Thunderbolt eGPUs don't work - the M1 and M2
| can't actually write to the memory on the GPUs.
|
| I thought the major reason was simply lack of drivers.
|
| When I consider that I can use direct mapped M.2 storage over
| Thunderbolt; or use 100GBit network cards over Thunderbolt 4
| (with a PCIe adapter) I wouldn't think that I was limited to
| mapping memory in the SoC.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| I'm skipping over a few details here[0].
|
| ARM has several different classes of memory access mappings;
| the normal one is called... well, Normal. I/O and storage is
| mapped using Device mappings, which don't cache reads and can
| be further divided into how little the CPU is allowed to try
| and optimize writes[1]. GPUs need Normal memory because
| applications written for modern graphics APIs expect to be
| able to map GPU memory into themselves and read and write to
| it like CPU memory.
|
| The ARM spec for I/O is that you are always allowed to use
| whatever mapping type the device needs, and that less-strict
| mappings should, in the worst case, "fall back" to stricter
| ones. Apple handles this differently; the SoC fabric
| _requires_ you use the specific device mapping that it
| expects for a particular device, and if you try to use
| something looser or stricter than what it wants, it will drop
| the transaction and raise an exception. And of course the SoC
| fabric will not allow Normal memory reads or writes to hit a
| PCIe device.
|
| As far as the Asahi Linux team is aware, there isn't a way
| from the CPU to turn off this behavior. It's also not the
| only implementation of PCIe on ARM that locks out PCIe
| memory. Raspberry Pi 4's PCIe support[3] also has the same
| design flaw. If it was just a driver problem, someone would
| have ported AMDGPU to ARM and ran it on Asahi Linux by now,
| and we'd be posting cool benchmarks between the internal and
| external GPUs.
|
| You don't notice this problem for I/O or storage because
| those _never_ need to be mapped as Normal.
|
| [0] And probably _still_ skipping over more details, since I
| 'm not an ARM expert. This is just what I've gleaned from
| reading other kernel developers' Mastodon and Twitter feeds.
|
| [1] Which, BTW, the M1 _also_ screws up. You 're supposed to
| be able to pick posted writes[2] or non-posted writes; Apple
| Silicon specifically refuses transaction types that don't
| match what the hardware expects.
|
| See https://lore.kernel.org/linux-arm-
| kernel/20210120132717.3958... for more info.
|
| [2] Write instructions finish before the write is actually
| sent to the device.
|
| [3] Yes, it has PCIe. One lane of it, used to drive an
| external USB 3 controller. You can of course repurpose it for
| other things.
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| Considering the complexity of a SoC like the M1, that there
| is zero documentation for it, and the Asahi team can only
| reverse-engineer it, what are the odds that they just don't
| know the magic bits to twiddle to get this functionality?
| csdvrx wrote:
| > Considering the complexity of a SoC like the M1, that
| there is zero documentation for it, and the Asahi team
| can only reverse-engineer it, what are the odds that they
| just don't know the magic bits to twiddle to get this
| functionality?
|
| I'd consider that very low because you've got a lot of
| eyeballs trying to get the most out of a COTS easily
| available hardware. The goal is to make it the best-in-
| class Linux support. Personally, I believe it can be
| done.
|
| I follow their progress with great interest, as some of
| the non-technical limitations of the macbook (OLED and
| touchscreen) could easily be fixed.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Just because something is a COTS doesn't mean it will get
| great Linux support. The Nintendo Switch should be the
| best-supported Linux board availible by that logic, but
| alas, even an unlocked Tegra is only _so_ capable.
|
| At a certain point, vendor cooperation becomes outright
| necessary. Asahi has come a long way, but getting to
| "best-in-class Linux support" takes more than community
| effort with commodity hardware. Stalled-out projects like
| Nouveau don't lend a lot of hope for the future.
| s3p wrote:
| Thank you for the citations with definitions :)
| dchuk wrote:
| It's crazy how far ahead Apple is getting in the laptop game with
| these new chips. I have the first gen MacBook Pro with the M1 Pro
| (ok maybe they're not winning the naming game), and it's a
| perfect computer. Battery life is literally all day, every single
| action is instant, I have zero regard for many apps or tabs I
| have open. It's just perfect.
|
| I have literally traveled with just a 30 watt anker brick for my
| phone and used it to trickle charge my MacBook overnight and I'm
| good to go.
| citrusybread wrote:
| software experience is funky, and I am really disappointed by
| the lack of support for external monitors...
|
| I happen to have 2 identical monitors, and a third I can't use
| on a macbook pro with m1 pro. They're in H configuration,
| portrait, landscape, portrait (last two are apparently the same
| model though different years)
|
| The mac constantly confuses the two identical monitors (one is
| rotated 270 degrees so it ain't great). I've tried two USB
| video card adapters; one wouldn't work at all, one from
| Plugable couldn't rotate the missing monitor (rotated 90
| degrees). If I asked it to drive the middle horizontal monitor,
| it mirrors with the matching monitor (again an issue because
| it's rotated 270 degrees)
|
| drives me nuts, there's no fix, it's a gamble which orientation
| it'll choose. making things worse - it also won't wake from
| sleep without a lot of trickery with the lid closed (only
| reliable method I've found is re-attaching the power cable...
| not great when I need to do this daily).
|
| my old intel mac? hit the spacebar on my usb keyboard to wake
| up. no issues with 3 monitors, and could even drive the
| internal display with it.
|
| I don't care about 2 external 4k screens -- some of us are
| still on 1080p and don't care. how did we regress like this?
| gnufied wrote:
| I have both a latest generation Thinkpad P1 Gen5 and Macbook
| Pro 16 inch M1 pro and while it is true that Macbook comes
| pretty close to being a perfect laptop, I still miss the
| productivity of a Linux laptop (for backend dev work).
|
| From what hardware POV you are correct, I wish though Apple
| would adopt Carbon Magnesium chasis that thinkpad uses. For
| same 16inch size, Thinkpad is noticeably lighter. I can happy
| lug my P1 Gen5(16 inch) model anywhere, whereas 16inch macbook
| pro is hefty.
| isolli wrote:
| What really pushed me towards Apple is that Lenovo offers a
| very limited set of configurations to us Europeans. No way to
| get the best machine from them, even if we're willing to pay
| for it.
| stonecharioteer wrote:
| I had the same problem with Lenovo here in India. I bought
| an Asus instead. got a Ryzen 9 6800 machine with 32gb ram
| and a 3050ti. amazingly good with Fedora.
| Foobar8568 wrote:
| I have seen the contrary... But for parts, we are screwed.
| yoavm wrote:
| I have an X1 Yoga that I got here in the Netherlands, and I
| had plenty of choices when configuring it, including OS.
| What are you missing exactly?
| isolli wrote:
| I was looking to buy a Lenovo Thinkpad T14 Gen 3, and I
| could not get a better screen resolution than 1920 x
| 1200. I just checked and 3840 x 2400 is now available.
| They may have had supply chain issues. But it's too late
| for me.
|
| Also, their ARM laptop is only available with Windows.
| citilife wrote:
| Almost everyone with thinkpad gets the windows version
| and just puts linux on it. It's relatively easy,
| depending on your distro.
| bogantech wrote:
| When I was looking at getting an X1 Carbon, the US site
| had better options for things like the screen etc
| cpuguy83 wrote:
| I doubt the chassis is adding that much weight. MacBooks are
| largely battery. The MacBook Air is also _significantly_
| lighter than a pro despite having the same basic chassis.
| gnufied wrote:
| I am not sure. The Thinkpad has 90WH battery and Macbook
| has 99WH, it is bigger but not 362gm heavier.
| CobaltFire wrote:
| I had a P1 Gen 4 and went to a 14" M1 MBP and agree.
|
| Screen was a bit better in most ways, keyboard was massively
| better, and the 16" was lighter (barely) than my 14".
|
| That said, I ran Win11 (my work environment requires Win) and
| MacOS is a straight upgrade to that IMO.
|
| I do miss that machine though.
| sem000 wrote:
| What is your Linux laptop giving you that your MBP doesn't?
| And how does it hurt your productivity? Genuinely curious as
| I don't see how it can be any different.
| somethingreen wrote:
| - window management that is either sane (i.e. restores
| minimized windows when alt/cmd+tab'ed to) or can be
| customized
|
| - desktop environment that is either sane (i.e. doesn't
| center align panels with variable number of controls like
| dock does) or can be customized
|
| - keyboard without missing buttons, with actual button
| travel yet not touching the screen when closed
|
| - option of a screen that doesn't double as mirror
| gnufied wrote:
| I work on container stuff, so may be my POV is bit
| different but:
|
| 1. I had hard time fighting openssl installed by Homebrew
| and getting Python to use it. On Linux - this is never an
| issue. In general IMO using homebrew is fairly tedious.
|
| 2. Debugging of stuff running on Linux. Sometimes logging
| is not enough and while remote debugging can be made to
| work (I mainly use Goland), it is pretty fiddly and does
| not work reliably.
|
| I am not new to Mac or anything tbh. I used to use Mac
| about 5 years ago exclusively and then Linux for next 5
| years and now using Mac again. IMO for kind of work I do -
| Linux is just leaps ahead of Mac.
| justahuman74 wrote:
| Presumably that it's running Linux and can be customized as
| wanted. Also docker runs without a VM, so the networking
| and storage performance is good
| smoldesu wrote:
| For me:
|
| - No nagware (no Apple Music pop-ups, advertisements for
| safari, login nag in settings, et. al)
|
| - Built-in package manager
|
| - Having (relative) parity between production and
| development
|
| Between those three, you probably couldn't pay me to go
| back to MacOS. Adding my own package manager, disabling ads
| and making my Mac into a Linux-equivalent machine _is_
| possible, but it 's a lot of work to maintain and set up.
|
| If I was a creative and used Adobe/Microsoft tools, I might
| be a little nicer to MacOS. As a programmer though? I
| haven't felt the desire to use a Mac since Mojave existed.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| For me:
|
| I have a Macbook Air M1 2020 and a Thinkpad X1 Carbon 7th
| Gen (4 years old!) running Linux Mint.
|
| I have upgraded the Thinkpad's Battery, RAM (16GB), and
| SSD (500GB) for the cost of the parts. I will not be able
| to do that on the Macbook. Ever.
|
| For what I do (browsing, videos, some writing and
| research) the only benefit to the Macbook is slightly
| better battery life. I have more software option on the
| Thinkpad for sure and it does not want to control
| everything I do.
|
| I paid WAY less for the thinkpad and I get pretty much
| the same performance for my needs.
|
| The THRUTH is that most people are being way oversold
| computing power and paying a premium for it because they
| are locked into the platform.
|
| And just yesterday for some reason Safari vanished and
| re-arranged my bookmarks for no reason.
|
| Getting my MacBook ready to sell as a matter of fact.
|
| In my mind it is stupid (and poor marketing) that the
| linux community is not crushing Apple with cheap, fast
| laptops.
| mfer wrote:
| I have an M1 Pro MBP and Linux running on a Framework
| laptop.
|
| The Linux built in package manager is only ok. It often
| lags behind in versions of things I need. I ended up
| using Homebrew on both Mac and Linux. For the cases the
| Linux built-in package manager is too out of date I use
| Homebrew. It's not perfect on either system.
|
| > - Having (relative) parity between production and
| development
|
| For certain classes of development this is a big deal.
|
| For my container work it doesn't really matter. I'm
| running Rancher Desktop and doing container based dev in
| the VM. Windows, Linux, or Mac doesn't matter as the
| host.
|
| > - No nagware (no Apple Music pop-ups, advertisements
| for safari, login nag in settings, et. al)
|
| I must have learned to ignore this as I've had Macs for a
| couple decades now.
|
| On the flip side, a lot of business software I must use
| for work isn't available on Linux. I think this is the
| biggest problem for GNU/Linux as a general OS. There's
| some biz software that just doesn't run there.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| The thing that gets me about Linux package managers is
| how easily they can wreck your desktop. Granted mac
| package managers aren't perfect here either but I think
| it would make a lot of sense for there to be some way to
| designate things like audio systems or your DE as
| "system" packages and as such be protected and very
| difficult to accidentally screw up with e.g. dependency
| resolution gone awry.
|
| I'd also not be opposed to a package manager more geared
| towards making sure things work without fuss than trying
| to reduce redundancy. I don't really mind if there's
| multiple versions of whatever lib installed if that's
| what it takes. Storage is cheap, my patience isn't.
|
| In theory flatpak and such should meet that need, but the
| implementation is so much more quirky and troublesome
| compared to e.g. Mac application bundles.
| smoldesu wrote:
| > some way to designate things like audio systems or your
| DE as "system" packages and as such be protected and very
| difficult to accidentally screw up with e.g. dependency
| resolution gone awry.
|
| I do this on NixOS (and used Nix to do the same thing on
| MacOS). It's really great, but the up-front work of
| configuring everything can be a bit steep. The end result
| is pretty nice though - your environments are all sym-
| linked together from a common package store, and you can
| group together certain environments/package sets to
| update independently of one another. The icing on the
| cake is the rollback feature, where you can go back
| through the generations of your environment (until the
| packages get GCed).
|
| It's not perfect (and it would test your patience), but
| Nix is an interesting commitment to the philosophy of
| using as much disk space as possible. I'm hopeful that
| someday it will be the de-facto package manager for Mac
| systems.
| counttheforks wrote:
| > The Linux built in package manager is only ok. It often
| lags behind in versions of things I need
|
| No such thing. What distributions did you have experience
| with? And what distributions are you running on your
| production systems?
| 5e92cb50239222b wrote:
| There's no such thing as "the Linux package manager". If
| you want something traditional, dnf runs circles around
| anything available on macOS, and nixpkg is from another
| universe altogether.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I have a 13" Macbook Pro and a Thinkpad model I forget
| the name of.
|
| Homebrew is down-right bad. There are certainly worse
| Linux package managers (pacman... looking at you), but if
| you're using MacOS I'd highly recommend giving Nix a try.
| Less muss-and-fuss, and stopped me from sending my
| Macbook on a swim in the local river.
|
| > For my container work it doesn't really matter.
|
| That's fine, it doesn't really for me either. The nice
| part (for me) is the native Docker and fantastic
| filesystem support. Whereas MacOS feels like a product
| I'm turning into a tool, Linux systems tend to feel like
| a tool out-of-box. Different strokes for different folks
| though, it really just depends on what you want out of a
| computer.
|
| > I must have learned to ignore this
|
| I must have learned to appreciate living without it,
| then. It's pretty jarring returning to a monetized OS
| like Windows 11 or Monterey for me.
|
| > a lot of business software I must use for work isn't
| available on Linux
|
| Oh yeah, for sure. Like I said in my previous comment, I
| wouldn't use Linux if I was a lawyer or a video editor.
| That being said though, pretty much everything I've used
| in the modern enterprise is browser-based. You don't need
| a native Jira app or a custom .DMG to run git. Arguably,
| everything you need is shipped right with most Linux
| distros.
|
| I won't (and haven't) argued that Linux is perfect, but
| MacOS is converging with the Windows and Google school of
| desktop design. It worries me, and it's part of why I
| left MacOS in the first place. Photoshop is nice, but
| living on a computer that feels like a rented hotel room
| isn't very satisfying to me. Again, different strokes.
| travisgriggs wrote:
| > Homebrew is down-right bad.
|
| Curious why? I used to dabble with it and others.
|
| A few macs ago (maybe around 2017), I switched to a
| strategy of "either the AppStore or brew". I've never had
| a problem with anything from brew since. I install some
| productivity tools, standard OS tooling (Inkscape, Gimp,
| Libre), everything I need to develop for Python, Android,
| various embedded arm platforms, Elixir/Erlang. I even add
| some extra tools for Swift development.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I'd recommend checking out some other package managers
| for Mac. I'm being a bit harsh on Homebrew, but Macports
| is _generally_ a better option IMO. The real crown-jewel
| is truly what everyone says; Nix. It 's just a brilliant,
| next-generation package management tool that does what it
| says on the tin. It works on MacOS, allows for granular
| package installation/upgrading, ephemeral shell-based dev
| environments, declarative system management and more.
|
| It's a bit like comparing cakes. Homebrew is a frosted
| sheet cake, whereas Macports is that nice double-layer
| box mix your mom used to make. Nix is a coconut-dusted
| 6-layer wedding cake that hides a 10 course meal under
| the fondant. They're all delicious, but I have a hard
| time going back to the sheet cake nowadays.
| Lio wrote:
| Apple nagware is a pain in the arse.
|
| On my old MBP I get regularly nagged to update to
| Monterey. Despite it not being supported.
|
| On my iPhone it wouldn't stop nagging me to accept
| changes to the iCloud T&Cs. There was no permanent opt
| out. You could say no for a bit and then it would go back
| to nagging you.
|
| Same with Apple Music.
|
| Currently my iPhone nags me to disable background running
| of Garmin Connect, so that I loose integration with my
| Garmin watch.
|
| None of this endears Apple to me and is definitely a
| consideration for my next purchase.
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| Others have filled in some of the productivity benefits,
| but it also avoids a thousand little papercuts. It doesn't
| have uninstallable crapware like Apple News.
| Leimi wrote:
| Some workflows on a linux system can be totally different
| than what is possible on a mac. Even with apps like
| BetterTouchTool, Hammerspoon, Amethyst and others.
| Customizing window management, advanced keyboard shortcuts,
| general system behavior in mac is going against the tide.
| It kinda works, but never as good as you'd want because you
| can't really get rid of the default window manager and
| default global behavior.
|
| Some window manager in linux are more like window manager
| frameworks, like AwesomeWM, that lets you customize its
| behavior via lua scripting. It's extremely powerful and
| allows you to get exactly the behavior you want.
|
| But this part of linux is pretty niche stuff for sure
| though haha.
|
| I wouldn't say I'm more productive thanks to this, but I'm
| way happier using a system I can set up so that it behaves
| how I want, instead of having to follow rules I don't agree
| with and can't change.
| dbeley wrote:
| Thinkpads will always have better keyboards, better
| connectivity and the trackpoint for them.
| dpz wrote:
| Biggest things for me - I've never found a good WM that can
| replace what bspwm can do. - Something as useful as pacman,
| brew is no where near as good. - Full control over my
| system. Plus I can run my set up on a PS30 chromebook and
| be nearly as efficient as my ~PS1800 Work laptop.
| rkangel wrote:
| There are some really weird things. The only sustained
| usage of Macs I've had is a Mac Mini (x86) that I had for
| app development. Even just plugging in a plain old UK
| layout USB keyboard (not an Apple one) and having it behave
| itself and give me the right characters was surprisingly
| difficult.
| nequo wrote:
| A ThinkPad X1 Carbon is cheaper, lighter, has a better
| keyboard, and on Linux I can run the DE that has the
| defaults/customizations and keybindings that I am used to.
|
| I also don't have to worry (or at least I think that I
| don't) that the Linux kernel or my distro silently
| introduces a hack for their programs to bypass my firewall
| and VPN because they couldn't fix some bugs by the company-
| mandated release date:
|
| https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/apple-
| nixes-...
| lynndotpy wrote:
| For my experience, as a longtime Linux user who got a MBP:
|
| I really miss the desktop environments available on Linux.
| KDE is great, and even Gnome beats MacOS. You can't even
| move windows between desktops with a keyboard shortcut on
| MacOS. The desktop experience on MacOS is a "death by a
| thousand cuts" situation. E.g. Popup dialogues will
| rearrange your windows (e.g. if the popup is wider than
| your window, to remain centered, it will _move the
| underlying window_ and I 'm not joking.) E.g. Mouse
| acceleration _can 't be turned off_, which makes MacOS
| pretty awful for any mouse-centric workflows. E.g. Blocking
| animations that fundamentally can't be turned off.
|
| That's on top of things that aren't necessarily faults with
| MacOS, such as getting used to different keyboard
| shortcuts.
|
| On Linux, I get native Docker, up-to-date coreutils
| (they're different on MacOS), more precompiled versions of
| software I use, and having the Linux desktop software that
| I prefer. (Finder is frustrating, Gedit or Kate for text
| editing is great, GIMP is much nicer on Linux, etc.) I also
| miss KDEConnect.
|
| I don't use Xcode, but as I understand, updating it messes
| with git and python.
|
| But the battery life really is amazing enough to make it
| worth it. I'm really excited for Asahi to progress to a
| point that I'm comfortable using it.
| grozzle wrote:
| ah, focus stealing. and the lack of focus stealing
| prevention. Yes. This is why I could never settle down
| and marry MacOS. KDE amd tiling WMs do this right,
| everyone else is just _rude_.
| TheKnack wrote:
| Apps like Keyboard Maestro or BetterTouchTool can resolve
| almost every Macos usability complaint that I've heard.
| Keyboard Maestro can move windows between desktops with a
| keyboard shortcut, for example, and there are multiple
| ways to disable mouse acceleration. For almost every
| missing feature or annoyance in Macos, someone else has
| had the same thought and developed a solution.
|
| https://forum.keyboardmaestro.com/t/move-frontmost-
| window-to...
| gspencley wrote:
| Can it resolve me not being able to use MATE as the
| desktop environment?
|
| My biggest gripe with Mac OS X is the window manager. I
| want to be able to ALT+right-click anywhere on a window
| to be able to move it around, alt+left-click anywhere on
| a window to resize it. I want to be able to click the
| dock icon for an app I'm using and have the most recently
| used window of that app come to the foreground instead of
| however it makes that decision. I'd love to get preview
| thumbnails of windows when hovering over icons in the doc
| so that I can select the window I want. Right-click plus
| reading window titles takes longer to find the window I
| need.
|
| I want to be able to customize my fonts because I have a
| hard time reading text on my QHD external monitor.
|
| I want a terminal that doesn't suck (and yes I use
| iterm2, it still sucks because I can't quickly jump to
| the end / beginning of a line to edit a command).
|
| I want to be able to select text to copy to clipboard and
| use my middle mouse button to paste and I want that to
| work for all programs.
|
| I want to be able to hold ctrl plus use the mouse wheel
| to zoom in / out of web pages on chrome ... something
| Linux and Windows both do out of the box but it just
| doesn't work on Mac OS X.
|
| I want to be able to customize all of this and not feel
| like I'm locked in to "the Apple way" of doing things.
|
| I lot of this is just familiarity and getting really used
| to a particular DE over decades of use and taking little
| things for granted. If all you've ever used is a Mac then
| I'm sure you've figured out how to be hyper-productive on
| that DE. I just find it strange that, from a company that
| somehow positioned itself as UX leaders ... I find that
| I'm 1/10th as productive on my work Macbook as I am on
| any _nix device (and while Mac might use a heavily
| modified NetBSD kernel IIRC and have zsh and bash ... it
| feels very different from a_ nix machine to me).
| grincho wrote:
| I can't solve all your problems, but here are a few I can
| do off the top of my head. I hope they help somebody.
|
| Hold keys and click to move a window:
| https://mmazzarolo.com/blog/2022-04-16-drag-window-by-
| clicki.... I love it. Bind it to a mouse button with USB
| Overdrive for extra convenience.
|
| In the terminal, use emacs-style bindings like ctrl-A and
| ctrl-E to move to the beginning and end of lines. On the
| Mac, Home and End are for beginning and ends of
| documents.
|
| Use USB Overdrive or Steermouse to bind mouse buttons to
| whatever you want, including Paste. Select-to-copy might
| be impossible, though you could certainly do select-and-
| click-to-copy.
|
| Cheers!
| lynndotpy wrote:
| I should note that I consider this is one of the biggest
| flaws with MacOS. It really should not require someone to
| pick together disparate pieces of software to come to a
| state of usability.
|
| It's like using Arch Linux, except the software costs
| money, is proprietary, and people choose Arch _because_
| they would prefer their own config over the comforts and
| defaults provided by other distros.
|
| Configuring a MacOS machine might require spending over
| $100 on usability software, providing personal
| information to a myriad of companies (Tools like IINA or
| iTerm2 are the exception and not the default.), and even
| after all that you _still_ have a variety of unfixable
| usability issues.
|
| KeyboardMaestro is $36 and BetterTouchTool is $22. With
| KeyboardMaestro, it's not clear what the license is
| (which makes it concerning for use in the workplace.)
|
| > For almost every missing feature or annoyance in Macos,
| someone else has had the same thought and developed a
| solution.
|
| I do appreciate the effort, but this isn't true. You can
| no longer disable blocking animations in MacOS, there is
| no Spaces API for instantly moving a window from one
| desktop to another, etc. And _any of this_ can break with
| a MacOS update, and there 's no easy way to automatically
| configure a fresh install. (IME, MacOS users use Time
| Machine backups rather than a fresh-install bash script.)
|
| From someone used to the comforts of Linux, MacOS takes a
| huge amount of effort and expenditure to only get 20% of
| the way there.
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| KeyboardMaestro is $36, Hammerspoon can do roughly the
| same and is free. Best part is: there is no pendant in
| linux, mostly due to the moving target of system
| configurations and DEs.
| lynndotpy wrote:
| What is pendant in this context? I assume it's an
| autocorrect error but I don't know what should be in its
| place...
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| It is the counterpart: https://www.merriam-
| webster.com/dictionary/pendant
|
| There is no counterpart for Hammerspoon/KeyboardMaestro
| for macOS and AutoHotkey for Windows in Linux.
| lynndotpy wrote:
| I've never heard that word used this way, thank you!
|
| That said, that makes sense. I don't have experience with
| AHK or HammerSpoon, but I'd expect this functionality to
| be very dependent on the display server and overall
| desktop environment.
| Leimi wrote:
| > From someone used to the comforts of Linux, MacOS takes
| a huge amount of effort and expenditure to only get 20%
| of the way there.
|
| You summed it up nicely!
|
| Sadly even with all the apps like hammerspoon, tiling wms
| and others, there are lots of stuff you can't customize
| in the macOS environment.
| lawgimenez wrote:
| I'm so sick and tired of macOS and wishing Xcode will run
| on Linux so I could switch in a heartbeat.
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| >32gb of ram
| interpol_p wrote:
| I have the same complaint about weight
|
| I upgraded from the 13" M1 Air to the 14" MacBook Pro M1 Max
|
| While Blender performance (rendering especially) is much
| faster, I sorely miss the MacBook Air's portability. The 14"
| is built like a brick. Compile times are faster, video
| editing is nicer with more RAM in the Pro, but it's a really
| tough call given just how different the weight is
| walthamstow wrote:
| I just got my work machine upgraded to the 14in Pro from
| the 13in M1 Air recently. I think overall the extra screen
| pixels are worth the weight tradeoff. It's only a little
| heavier and I don't really notice it on my back when I'm
| cycling
|
| I did love the M1 Air though! Probably the best laptop I've
| ever used pound-for-pound.
| Kognito wrote:
| Agreed, a high end machine in the Air form factor would be
| great. The M2 is more than enough compute-wise for my SWE
| workflow, but it's not a great deal once you start bumping
| the RAM and adding storage when compared to the base 14
| inch (+ the extra benefits you get with the 14" screen,
| etc).
| _fzslm wrote:
| iTerm2 and lima [1] with a ARM64 Linux virtual machine w/
| Rosetta (so I can still run x86_64 Linux code!) enabled me to
| fall in love with my MacBook Pro in this regard. i feel more
| productive than on a Linux machine now. MacOS is not without
| its developer power tools, if you dig around enough!
|
| [1] https://github.com/lima-vm/lima
| kdrag0n wrote:
| Shameless plug on this topic: I've been working on a new
| Linux+Docker+Kubernetes solution for macOS recently!
| Already has quite a few improvements over existing apps
| including Docker Desktop, Rancher, Colima, etc: fast
| networking (30 Gbps), VirtioFS and _bidirectional_
| filesystem sharing, Rosetta for fast x86, full Linux (not
| only Docker), lower CPU usage, and other tweaks.
|
| More details here to avoid spamming this thread:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34374176
| mbreese wrote:
| Don't forget about the related project colima[1] that makes
| it easier to run Docker containers from a Mac command
| prompt using a lima VM to host the containers. I'm not
| convinced on using volumes with colima yet, but it does
| make using dev containers a lot easier with Mac native VS
| Code.
|
| [1] https://github.com/abiosoft/colima
| rerx wrote:
| It would be perfect if Rosetta supported AVX instructions.
| For instance, I could just install pre-built tensorflow
| binary packages in a x64 container on Lima then.
| johncalvinyoung wrote:
| Man, I wish Rosetta (or Microsoft's ARM emulation) could
| support AVX. I understand it might be a patent issue.
| It's the one significant thing keeping me from running
| some of the software I'd like to on my MBP.
| xtracto wrote:
| For me MacBookPro with M2 chips would be perfect if the
| 13in model allowed 64GB RAM. My workflow requires me to run
| Docker (intel images) heavily with several containers.
| Having a virtualization layer is pretty resource consuming.
| Usually the Docker + containers I use take around 5GB RAM
| alone.
|
| Under that configuration I've found 32GB to be just within
| the limit of usability. 16GB are just not enough. Also, for
| some virtualized Docker workflows, there is that known
| issue of slow File interaction through the Mac/virtualized
| file system, which makes working with say Magento, Drupal
| or simlar software REALLY slow.
|
| As a comparison, I've also got a 2011 intel MacBookPro with
| 16GB RAM. That one is running Linux Mint. Docker
| performance is almost transparent, and the system runs
| pretty snappy for development.
| nicoburns wrote:
| There is no M2-series MacBook Pro with a 32GB RAM limit.
| There is the legacy 13in version with regular M2 which
| has a 24GB limit (which IMO makes no sense at all -
| basically everyone would be better with the M2 air over
| the model). And there is the 14in model with M2 Pro/Max
| which has both 64GB and 96GB RAM options.
| memco wrote:
| > For me MacBookPro with M2 chips would be perfect if the
| 13in model allowed 64GB RAM
|
| The new 14" model is only slightly bigger than the 13"
| (.4"x.4" bigger and .5lb heavier) and supports up to 96GB
| of RAM so may be a reasonable consolation if those size
| and weight compromises are tolerable for you.
| Additionally, you'd get a better screen, keyboard, more
| ports, better wifi and bluetooth, and more CPU & GPU
| capacity. Of course cost will also go up quite a bit.
|
| It would also help if the virtualization story on Macs
| improved so that you wouldn't need to have all that RAM
| just to compensate.
| outcoldman wrote:
| Really don't understand why Apple still selling 13" MBP,
| as MBP 14 is much better, and you can get it with up to
| 96GB of memory now. I would assume they keep 13" just for
| people who still likes TouchBar.
| blippitybleep wrote:
| I bought a 13" M2 for work (freelance dev) last week.
| It's a weight and size thing for me. The 14" (I've had
| one before) seems to just cross the threshold for what I
| can comfortably carry when I'm out and about.
| nicoburns wrote:
| Why did you choose that over the MacBook Air?
| blippitybleep wrote:
| My impression is that the air can't "gun it" for as long
| because of heat. Sometimes I run intensive stuff and I'd
| prefer the machine to turn the fans on rather than
| throttle the processor.
|
| With that said, the air is nice. It's just not worth it
| to save 160 grams for my use case.
| tracker1 wrote:
| My personal laptop is an M1 Air (16gb)... for anything
| dev, I use VS Code + Remoting extensions and just work
| "on" my personal desktop (local or over vpn/wireguard).
| It means I can't really do much without an internet
| connection, but that's often the case anyway.
|
| I will say that a _lot_ of the software I run in Docker
| has an aarch64 bundle... there are a few things that don
| 't. There's now a beta version of Docker Desktop that
| includes Rosetta support, which should dramatically help
| for x86_64 images. I also have found that the FS I/O is
| not great, but getting better.
|
| (prior job was using M1 Max, current is windows+wsl)
| toyg wrote:
| Chances are Docker would be a dog on that 2011 too, if
| you were on MacOS. I honestly don't know how Docker got
| so popular when it sucks so much on anything that is not
| Linux.
| justinsaccount wrote:
| > I honestly don't know how Docker got so popular when it
| sucks so much on anything that is not Linux.
|
| How do these sound to you?
|
| I honestly don't know how Active Directory got so popular
| when it sucks so much on anything that is not Windows.
|
| I honestly don't know how Final Cut Pro got so popular
| when it sucks so much on anything that is not OS X.
| dmix wrote:
| Docker is something that _should_ be cross platform far
| more than those examples.
|
| The whole idea of using Docker for dev boxes is to
| eliminate the cross platform dependency issues and make
| it easier for everyone, without maintaining wikis for
| each OS version. We don't use Docker at work because of
| the non-Linux performance issues.
| justinsaccount wrote:
| Apple is free to port the docker daemon to run natively
| on OS X.
|
| Running the docker daemon in a linux VM on your OS X
| system and then complaining about performance is silly.
| toyg wrote:
| They sound silly.
|
| The population that uses Active Directory lives almost
| exclusively on Windows.
|
| The population that uses FCP lives almost exclusively on
| MacOS (OSX is dead, long live OSX)
|
| The population that uses Docker _does not_ live
| exclusively on Linux. In fact, _a minority_ of developers
| works on Linux laptops, even when they target it for
| deployment. It 's a larger minority than in other
| sectors, but it's definitely a minority, not even a
| relative majority. The population of (web) developers is
| possibly the most evenly-distributed of all, in terms of
| OS.
| justinsaccount wrote:
| If someone was trying to run an Active directory domain
| controller on a windows VM on a mac mini, what would you
| tell them?
|
| If someone was trying to run FCP on an OS X VM on a linux
| box, what would you tell them?
|
| It's not the fault of docker or linux containers that
| people insist on trying to use the technology on another
| unsupported operating system.
| toyg wrote:
| _> It 's not the fault of docker or linux containers that
| people insist_
|
| Obviously, it's the fault of people - as I said in the
| comment above: I'm surprised it got so popular among
| people, considering how much it sucks on the platforms
| lots of them use.
| nicoburns wrote:
| What software are you using that doesn't have ARM
| versions available? I think it goes without saying that a
| machine with an ARM processor is not going to be ideal if
| you're frequently working with x86-specific software.
| mbreese wrote:
| I've needed some scientific software that still doesn't
| have ARM64 libraries available, so thus are stuck on x86.
| RStudio, for example, has a lot of dependencies and only
| recently starting offering experimental support for
| aarch64 on Linux.
| StreamBright wrote:
| As a heavy Linux user for two decades I disagree. You can't
| even talk about Linux vs MacOS because the actual
| distribution you use matters a lot more than the kernel when
| you talk about productivity.
|
| Using Mint, Elementary or whichever GUI distribution you
| would like to use with the Linux kernel has completely
| different tradeoffs in terms of GUI, which implies different
| productivity levels.
|
| There is more. Even with the best case scenario you need to
| customise the GUI much more than you need to customise MacOS,
| for example energy management is a bit a of problem for most
| Linux based distros.
|
| This simply happens because Apple owns the whole vertical
| from HW to GUI and they focus on the user. They have done
| this for decades. There is no such entity in the non-Apple
| world and this means there is more work for the user when
| trying to create a working environment.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| And Linux keeps failing because of companies like System76
| which cannot seem to build, or partner with a company, to
| be this competition.
|
| Lenovo would crush Apple if it partnered with the Linux
| Community and made a cheap (in price!) everyday laptop for
| the consumer and focused on privacy and no lock in.
| kkielhofner wrote:
| "Lenovo would crush Apple if it partnered with the Linux
| Community"
|
| No it wouldn't.
|
| Users (the 99%) don't care about privacy, tech, etc. They
| happily give their data up to TikTok (the CCP), Meta,
| Google, Amazon, Apple, etc. The Snowden revelations were
| met with a shrug or "I have nothing to hide". This is
| well beyond established at this point (these platforms
| have billions of users).
|
| They also don't care about lock in - they just want stuff
| that works and adds as much as it can to their lives in
| as little effort as possible. The Apple ecosystem is
| incredibly successful because it does this exceedingly
| well. They view lock in as a positive - "All my stuff
| just works together - here's more money Apple".
|
| The average person cares as much and is as involved in
| all of this as I am in understanding how my light switch
| is related to the function and operation of a nuclear
| reactor. The amount of care, time, thought, and energy I
| put into that is the cumulative total of the three
| seconds I spend interacting with light switches everyday.
|
| I'm not disparaging users. I use the nuclear reactor
| analogy because I don't care, I don't need to care, and I
| shouldn't have to care. I, (like most people) have only
| so much bandwidth for time, energy, and passion. I leave
| worrying and caring about all of that up to everyone from
| the people who mine uranium to the electrician that wires
| up the switches.
|
| On HN we're the uranium miners, nuclear physicists, power
| companies, linemen, and electricians. We're the few
| people who do know and care about any of this "tech
| stuff".
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| "They also don't care about lock in - they just want
| stuff that works and adds as much as it can to their
| lives in as little effort as possible. The Apple
| ecosystem is incredibly successful because it does this
| exceedingly well. They view lock in as a positive - "All
| my stuff just works together - here's more money Apple"."
|
| Probably the biggest myth about Apple these days, that it
| just works. Can I tell you the countless hours I have
| spent helping friends with their Apple and iPhone issues?
|
| And besides, as technicians, our job is to GET PEOPLE to
| care about this stuff and lead by example. What good is
| trying to convince someone to not use Apple products if
| you are buying the latest Apple product?
|
| And in my opinion, Google products "just work" much
| better and are more open to multiple routes of access to
| your data. At that, they are way better than Apple.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| I've been finding that the Budgie desktop is pretty great.
| Very Mac-like.
| StreamBright wrote:
| I wasn't aware. Thanks for recommending it.
| firstSpeaker wrote:
| Could you elaborate what is preventing it from being the
| perfect backend dev laptop?
| klodolph wrote:
| I'm not the person you asked--but a ton of developer
| tooling just runs better on Linux. Installation is usually
| easier too--on a Mac, there's Homebrew, but Homebrew
| doesn't have the best user experience.
|
| All the GUI productivity apps run better on a Mac--image
| editors, IDEs / text editors, apps like Slack or Zoom or
| whatever.
| recuter wrote:
| What specific developer tooling runs better on linux? If
| you're one of those Nix masochists I hear that runs on
| the Mac as well.
| rgrmrts wrote:
| Fwiw you can use nix (the package manager) and the
| nixpkgs package repository without ever learning or
| writing a single line of nix (the language).
|
| My introduction was to use nix instead of brew and ignore
| the whole "declarative configuration" aspect. It took me
| a while to get comfortable enough with that part of the
| ecosystem, but that's irrelevant to my point.
|
| Give nix a try, use it like you'd use brew. Ignore the
| declarative configuration stuff for a bit.
| recuter wrote:
| What benefit would joining your cult bestow upon me that
| brew does not already?
|
| My brew list is intentionally very short and my faffing
| about desire is limited.
|
| Generally I use brew to pull in asdf
| (https://github.com/asdf-vm/asdf) to install programming
| languages/tooling, it works flawlessly.
|
| I use Pipx (https://github.com/pypa/pipx) to install
| python thingies (such as yt-dlp) as a cli.
|
| Go and Rust handle binaries in their languages
| beautifully and without issues.
| rgrmrts wrote:
| If you're happy with brew, by all means continue using
| it. If asdf is getting you all the languages and tools
| you need without issue, by all means continue using it.
| My comment is just adding some details to the parent
| comment about nix running well on macOS.
|
| EDIT: I doubt your question is in good faith considering
| the 'cult' comment, but to answer your question at face
| value regarding benefit the first one that comes to mind
| is being able to have multiple versions of the same
| package and being able to rollback to previous versions
| if something breaks. This also means you can have package
| A depend on package B v1, and package C depend on package
| B v2, and both can coexist. If this is not something
| that's valuable to you, that's fine too. The other killer
| feature is being able to install dependencies for a
| project/repository if it uses nix - just clone, cd, and
| run `nix develop` and you'll have all the dependencies
| available.
| recuter wrote:
| The cult comment was in jest. These are just package
| managers don't take things so seriously, it is all in
| good fun.
|
| Yes, I understand the multiple versions of the same
| package thing - Go/Rust have package managers that quite
| reliably solve that problem. Pipx also to a certain
| extent solves that problem.
|
| Brew is useful mostly for casks (browsers, mac apps,
| fonts) which don't usually call for multiple versions.
|
| I'm sure it is a hairy problem for some combination of
| languages/tools but I guess I'm somehow completely side
| stepping it. Perhaps I'm more likely to encounter it if I
| treated my laptop as a server because that seems more
| like where Nix might shine as a sort of
| ansible/chef/puppet on steroids ;)
| rgrmrts wrote:
| Fair enough! Yeah, I was using brew as a replacement for
| something like `apt` or `dnf` on Linux. For example,
| installing packages like htop, neovim, emacs, etc. For
| things like Rust I stick with cargo (which is awesome),
| though I do manage my Go install through nix.
| klodolph wrote:
| I am constantly fighting with Brew. If your brew list is
| short, congratulations, you're free. I'm not free; there
| are too many packages I use.
| recuter wrote:
| If you're fighting with it something got b0rked along the
| way and you'll just keep having issues.
|
| When you have some time might be worth it to start over.
| Don't use brew to install/manage your python, try it like
| how I wrote.
| rgrmrts wrote:
| I used brew for years and it's a fine tool but I found it
| lacking. It doesn't give you control when you need it,
| and telling a user that something got b0rked along the
| way and asking them to start over isn't good developer
| experience (in all fairness, neither is the current
| status of the various nix cli's, but trade-offs am I
| right?). I've lost so many hours because something broke
| and sometimes it was because one dependency got updated
| and broke other packages and other times it wasn't
| obvious what broke, and I would have to start from
| scratch.
|
| I never used brew to install or manage my python
| precisely because it gave me so many issues.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Can I just do "nix install foo"? I looked into nix ages
| ago but opening a text file any time I wanted to install
| some random package just felt too weird.
| rgrmrts wrote:
| Yes! (kind of, I wish `nix install` was a thing)
| # search for a package called `foo` nix search
| nixpkgs foo # install package foo, user-wide
| nix-env -i foo
|
| The CLI UX can get better, and I'm fairly sure folks are
| working on it.
|
| You can also test-drive a package without committing to
| it, e.g. you want to try the program `cowsay` but only
| want to use it once: nix-shell -p
| cowsay cowsay exit
|
| This spawns a new shell with `cowsay` available, and
| after you exit it won't be cluttering your system
| packages.
| api wrote:
| A VM on the Mac will run longer on battery with less heat
| than a Linux installation on a native Linux x64 laptop.
|
| Of course if you need to have your laptop be x64 to match
| cloud architecture then that's different. Or you could just
| use ARM in the cloud and save even more carbon emissions.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Exactly. My strategy for this for my personal projects is
| mostly ARM VMs. In a couple of cases I have to run x86, and
| I run a used HP thin client at home as what I call a
| "physical VM". I then use tailscale to connect from
| anywhere.
| hra5th wrote:
| If you need to interact with connected peripherals from the
| linux environment a VM is still usually a much less
| productive experience. I do a lot of embedded development,
| and while it is often possible to do USB passthrough to
| connected boards, lots of things don't work the same as
| they do when running Linux natively, and I have never found
| it to be a seamless experience (on VirtualBox or VMWare)
| jackosdev wrote:
| I have Asahi Linux installed on mine, it works great
| including the GPU, I'm mainly developing for ARM64 AWS
| Lambdas now as well so it's nice having the same arch. Some
| things are still missing like webcam, microphone and
| speakers, but the headphone Jack works and Bluetooth is OK
| just a bit choppy, incredible project.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| I know this isn't an Asahi Linux thread, but I cannot help
| to ask about it. Plus I am big fan of Alyssa Rosenzweig's
| work (and Justine Tunney), so I pay close attention to
| Asahi Linux (and LibCosmo/politan) progress.
|
| First, it's great to hear from Real World people like you
| about their Asahi Linux experience. It sounds like the
| baseline is done and now they will pick away at the
| remaining pieces.
|
| Real question: What is the driver for Asahi Linux to exist
| at all? Please don't think I am trolling when I ask this
| question. At 10,000ft, any sane person would say: "Why?
| It's Apple. Let them do them: Mac OS X." I expect Asahi
| Linux folks to reply: "Well, duh: Because."
|
| Is it unlocking the insane performance per watt of Apple Mx
| chips for Linux?
|
| Is it enabling the world's greatest laptops for Linux?
|
| Is it the pure technical challenge of reverse engineering a
| closed hardware system?
|
| Is it everything?
|
| I am really curious to hear what people think.
| evilduck wrote:
| A good motivation for Asahi is hardware longevity. Apple
| supports hardware for a reasonable amount of time while I
| want to use a system as a primary computer but is
| obviously the worst among the 3 major operating systems
| and it curtails the long tail life of a system. In 7-9
| years from now Asahi (or some other linux distro) will
| probably be the best way to keep an M1 Mac on an up to
| date and secure operating system.
| rkangel wrote:
| Because your choice of hardware should be independent of
| the choice of software that you run on it.
|
| This has been the world we've had since the concept of
| "IBM compatible" existed. Some people prefer Windows
| (because of available software, or ease of use) and some
| people prefer Linux (e.g. for efficiency, customisability
| or desire to run open source software). Why should that
| choice be tied to whether you've bought, HP, Lenovo or
| another manufacturer?
|
| Apple has made some amazing laptop hardware, but Mac OS
| doesn't suit everyone. So well done to the Asahi Linux
| team for trying to take us back to that world of choice.
| dmix wrote:
| You still 100% should choose your hardware for Linux even
| on 'Windows' laptops.
|
| Ideally it should run everywhere but in my experience
| you'll never get a positive Linux Desktop experience
| unless you tailor your hardware purchases to the Linux
| world - this usually means choosing a laptop that tons of
| other linux users are using, so the bugs are getting
| found and fixed, and documentation exists.
|
| The key here is that it should at least run on the most
| popular laptop brands. It should run on Macbook Pro
| because it's incredibly popular hardware choice for
| software/technical people.
| sirsinsalot wrote:
| It wasn't that long ago all Apple hardware was PowerPC.
|
| I'm not disagreeing with your point, but Apple's foray
| into broadly standard hardware is the exception for them.
| Sadly.
| KerrAvon wrote:
| PowerPC was an attempt to standardize (at a least a
| subset of) the industry on a common RISC processor. There
| were even two attempts at industry standards for PowerPC
| motherboards (PreP and CHRP, the latter with Apple's
| active participation).
| gattilorenz wrote:
| > It wasn't that long ago
|
| ...almost 20 years?
| johnmaguire wrote:
| I have a ThinkPad with Linux on it that I bought for
| programming and software development and a 16" Macbook
| Pro w/ an M1 Pro chip that I bought for photography.
|
| I only use the Macbook Pro. The speed, battery life,
| coolness (to the touch), and quietness make it extremely
| difficult to have any desire to pick up the ThinkPad.
|
| But I'd still be more productive with Linux.
| counttheforks wrote:
| So it works great except half the hardware doesn't work and
| it's entirely unsupported by Apple, to whom you paid a
| significant premium for the hardware?
| grozzle wrote:
| It's a work in progress, users are generally confident
| that the remaining hardware will gain Asahi support
| sooner or later.
|
| The fact that Asahi is such a popular project is a pretty
| strong indicator of how much room for improvement MacOS
| has, to put it as politely as I can. Personally, I
| wouldn't even consider buying a new Mac if there wasn't
| any good alternate native OS available.
| [deleted]
| smith7018 wrote:
| That tends to be how Linux works outside of standard
| platforms, yes. It takes time for developers to write
| drivers.
| [deleted]
| justapassenger wrote:
| Battery is NOT whole day. People shouldn't fall for that.
|
| Yeah, battery is great, not arguing that. But if you use heavy
| web apps and do a lot of VC, half day is best you can get.
| robertoandred wrote:
| I hope you don't use Chrome for those web apps. Google stuff
| has terrible power efficiency.
| justapassenger wrote:
| Same effects both on Chrome and Safari.
|
| But that's also irrelevant. Whole day of battery, if you
| don't use heavy apps is very different from whole day of
| battery.
| JimRoepcke wrote:
| It is if you're using Safari. I have two M1 Max MBPs. My
| personal machine runs Chrome, and my work machine runs
| Safari. I can run my work machine for well over a day doing
| iOS development in Xcode with an external monitor attached
| and not run out of battery. The personal machine will last
| almost all day (without a monitor attached) but not quite.
| I'm sure if I used Safari it would last much longer.
| justapassenger wrote:
| I've tried both. Safari does some neat tricks to reduce
| usage when pages are not active. But if you have a heavy
| webapp - you have a heavy webapp, and power will be used.
| nikeee wrote:
| Enjoy it as long as you can. As soon as this kind of hardware
| is close to becoming commodity, software will get as slow as it
| is currently on commodity hardware.
|
| It's part of Wirth's law:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth%27s_law
| kossTKR wrote:
| Interesting. So that's why latency seems to have become worse
| in all aspects of personal computing / smartphones.
|
| Time from "push button" to "something happens on screen", was
| faster 20 years ago in some aspects.
|
| Has turned a bit on my M2 Air it seems though.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| goosedragons wrote:
| They aren't though. The fact that they are ridiculously
| comparing performance to the 3 year old at this point final
| Intel MacBook (which was a dog turd) in their press release
| with some very cherry picked benchmarks suggests things aren't
| quite as good as they could be. Why are they talking about 3+
| old parts and not the current competition?
| Spooky23 wrote:
| They are trying to drive the replacement cycle quickly for
| customers who are operating a defective MacBook with a
| keyboard that will fail.
|
| If they convince you to trade in the old one, they take that
| off the market and make cash.
| goosedragons wrote:
| The fastest Intel MBP ever made already had the scissor key
| keyboard and not butterfly.
| StreamBright wrote:
| I am not sure if most people buying MBPs are interested in
| the synthetic benchmark performance as much as they are
| interested in energy efficiency and vertical integrations.
| dahfizz wrote:
| Just wait until Apple finally removes the lighting port. I
| can travel with one cable & wall wart to charge every
| device I own - that's the future.
| [deleted]
| bfgoodrich wrote:
| Eh, this is [literally any company on the planet].
| Marketing is to sell a product, not to provide a
| comprehensive case for competitors.
| akmittal wrote:
| Apple almost never compares with other brands. They are
| comparing with older chip because that was inside older
| MacBook pros.
|
| Both Intel and AMD has done great job with their processors
| recently.
| ianai wrote:
| From TA:
|
| "With M2 Pro on MacBook Pro: Rendering titles and animations
| in Motion is up to 80 percent faster1 than the fastest Intel-
| based MacBook Pro and up to 20 percent faster5 than the
| previous generation.
|
| Compiling in Xcode is up to 2.5x faster1 than the fastest
| Intel-based MacBook Pro and nearly 25 percent faster5 than
| the previous generation.
|
| Image processing in Adobe Photoshop is up to 80 percent
| faster1 than the fastest Intel-based MacBook Pro and up to 40
| percent faster5 than the previous generation."
| smoldesu wrote:
| In other words, they're absolutely using the Intel machine
| to bury the lede.
|
| Apple is now facing the same struggle as AMD and Intel.
| They have a generational processor product that relies on
| new silicon to get faster, and they can't get new silicon
| fast enough. The M2 was basically just a wattage-bump of
| the M1, and looking at the performance increase/processor
| count, I'm inclined to call the Pro/Max the same thing.
| You're telling me you added 2 cores to a 10 core system for
| a 20% performance increase? Wow, color me surprised.
|
| The whole thing feels like Apple's lack of humility here is
| biting them in the ass. There's nothing wrong with paving
| your own path in the tech industry, but mocking your
| competitors is not what a reasonably-educated analyst does.
| It's what someone in marketing does.
| semi-extrinsic wrote:
| I just got an M1 Pro MBP for work last week, so I was
| kicking myself a little when I saw this. Then I was less
| disappointed when I saw the only difference is a 20%
| speed increase for some apps, no changes to things I
| would actually care about, like adding a couple USB-A
| ports, or if the speed increase was > 50%.
|
| I do all compiling and heavy testing on servers, so the
| laptop is just for SSH, analysis software, and regular
| desktop stuff, for which it is fast enough.
| stouset wrote:
| > or if the speed increase was > 50%
|
| Frankly this speaks volumes about what a sea change the
| M1 was if people are hoping for a 50% performance
| increase between CPU generations.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > It's what someone in marketing does.
|
| The linked website for this discussion is marketing.
| smoldesu wrote:
| File it under the "botched marketing campaign" folder,
| then. If you're selling a machine to professionals, the
| copywriting ought to speak their language.
| nomel wrote:
| > If you're selling a machine to professionals
|
| They are selling to professionals, but probably not ones
| that speak your exact language. Having a solid
| understanding of hardware puts you into a small small
| minority of professionals that this was meant to be for.
| This is the same for Intel and AMD marketing: hardcore
| tech people are not the target audience for this
| material.
| ianai wrote:
| Read their other comments. They have an axe to grind
| against apple. This is like Chevy fans trolling an F150
| forum.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Then maybe remove the word "Pro"?
| nomel wrote:
| If you're using your computer to make money, then "Pro"
| seems appropriate:
|
| Professional: 1. relating to or
| belonging to a profession. 2. engaged in a
| specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather
| than as a pastime.
|
| What definition do you see as more appropriate?
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| If you know what "color grading" is (and your job depends
| on doing it) you're probably a "hardcore tech" person
| that knows what the mystical abbreviation "GPU" stands
| for.
|
| _Professional_ writers using a word processor might not
| understand what "hardware-accelerated H.264" means, yet
| there it is on their website under _Air_! Are those for
| "hardcore tech" people?
|
| https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac
| Jcowell wrote:
| Why exactly is this an issue if they target audience are
| those who own intel Macs?
| smoldesu wrote:
| Because then only people with Intel Macs care. People
| like me, who remember the 2019 i9 Macbook Pro being one
| of Apple's least-recommended laptops, are kinda unfazed
| by favorable performance comparisons. There are probably
| hundreds of laptops that can destroy it in a fraction of
| it's power envelope; it wasn't a great machine.
|
| Mostly, it's ironic that Apple is comparing themselves to
| a company that they want so desperately to escape. And,
| once you _do_ run the math on their _actual_ year-over-
| year improvements, it 's not that different from AMD or
| Intel. _And_ Apple is increasing their power consumption
| to hit those numbers. It 's quite literally square one in
| a sense, just with a different CPU architecture and a
| different manufacturer.
| neogodless wrote:
| How does that compare to products you would cross shop
| against the M2-based MacBook Pro in 2023?
| msbarnett wrote:
| You'll have to wait until 3rd parties do those
| comparisons?
|
| Apple has literally never posted "here's a ream of
| benchmarks vs the Dell XPS XYZ and HP
| modelnumbersneeze738462" -- pretending this is indicative
| of some grand conspiracy to hide performance deficiencies
| of these new M2 models the way GP is, is silly.
| goosedragons wrote:
| No but look what they did for the M1 press release:
|
| https://www.apple.com/ca/newsroom/2020/11/introducing-
| the-ne...
|
| They talk all about how it's faster than 98% of PC
| laptops sold. When they are in the lead or feel they are
| then they do.
| ianai wrote:
| Realistically it's expected it will perform relative to
| competitors now as the old models did in the past.
|
| More realistically, this is one of the more drab ways
| apple announces products. They didn't even have a
| presentation or anything. So they're clearly not
| marketing with the same goals in mind as a presentation.
| I'd say the intended audience here are people already
| going to buy the latest model because they're in the
| apple ecosystem.
|
| Not that I'm inclined to defend a multi trillion dollar
| company, of course. It's just pithy to hop into this sort
| of thread and grind the old axe against apple.
| redsky17 wrote:
| My bet for why they're comparing it to the Intel models: They
| want to advertise more heavily to the Intel folks so they can
| more quickly reduce / remove support for multiple
| architectures. They are trying to convince the Intel folks
| that Apple Silicon will be much more performant. Also, they
| probably want people to spend money on their products sooner
| than they otherwise would have.
|
| That being said, They are still comparing against the M1
| chips here. They aren't _only_ comparing against Intel.
| optymizer wrote:
| The hardware is indeed great. The software experience is
| getting worse imo, particularly when upgrading. It used to be
| rock solid for me.
|
| The m1 worked without any issues for 2 months. I upgraded
| yesterday to macOS Ventura:
|
| * Upgrade finished but laptop froze. Hard reset.
|
| * On first boot, the new System Settings failed to load icons,
| then froze. Trying to quit it froze the OS. Hard reset.
|
| * I left the laptop plugged in for 12 hours, connected to 2
| other displays over USBC. Laptop screen didnt turn on, other
| monitors did. Unplugged monitors, mashed keys on keyboard,
| replugged, laptop screen was still off. Hard reset.
|
| I give Apple lots of credit for switching to ARM, but the last
| time I had this many issues that required a hard reset because
| the OS became unusable was Windows ME.
|
| I used to praise macOS for its stability. It's still on average
| very stable, but in the last ~5 years the upgrade experience
| has not been rock solid anymore. I must have used at least a
| dozen Macbook Pro/Air and Mac Pro in that time, so I know it's
| not just 1 buggy laptop.
| LeonenTheDK wrote:
| Very similar experience here when upgrading, although not
| quite as bad.
| 0xCMP wrote:
| The issue talking to Displays was _way worse_ with Intel Macs
| than it is today. Unfortunately there are definitely software
| issues with it. I think there was a thread on Twitter about
| Ashai Linux and how they figured out how to make something
| related more reliable than macOS by simply doing it
| correctly.
| null_object wrote:
| > The software experience is getting worse imo, particularly
| when upgrading.
|
| Many people chiming-in about the absolutely rock-solid
| stability of the last few updates, and I'm adding my vote to
| that.
|
| I have had zero system-crashes or freezes for maybe 2 or even
| 3 years now. I tend to wait to hear what other people's
| experiences are, but that waiting-time is getting shorter
| these days. And the update process is also getting smoother:
| almost never any need to fix update issues with apps.
|
| If I go back 10 or 15 years, I remember regular kernel
| panics, tricky restarts into 'safe mode', spinning
| beachballs, clearing the PRAM (don't even remember what that
| was about anymore - but it was needed all the time), and so
| on. It was an ongoing task to keep the OS running.
|
| So this idea that MacOS is "getting worse" is just complete
| amnesia, in my view. I have never worked with anything so
| stable and powerful in my entire developer experience over
| the last 25+ years.
|
| If we're talking about the _price_ of these machines (and
| especially the measly disks and RAM on the cheapest options)
| - that 's another matter...
| brabel wrote:
| I've just upgraded my two Macs, one Mackbook Air around 3
| years old, and a more recent MBP M1. Both worked perfectly
| fine. What could be causing your issues if not the OS?
| nxpnsv wrote:
| I upgraded my m1 pro to Ventura last weekend, and the
| computer just kept working... much like most updates..
| dom96 wrote:
| Can't say I share your experience. Just upgraded to Ventura
| and didn't run into any issues.
| clint wrote:
| I have never seen any of the issues you're having here and
| I've had probably 20-30 iterations of apple products over the
| last 20 years.
|
| The last true issue I had with apple hardware or software was
| in 2002-2003ish with a snow iBook that had a motherboard
| failure, but after that I've had nearly 20 unbroken years of
| basically fault-free existence which is pretty amazing if you
| ask me.
| matwood wrote:
| As someone else mentioned, people have _always_ had issues
| when upgrading. So much so that for a long time people
| recommended wiping and re-installing instead of upgrading.
| Some of the early macOS versions were also really rough
| comparatively.
|
| I've been using macs for a long time and have never had any
| issues though. I also tend to run the betas very early on.
|
| I don't doubt that you have issues though, I just think they
| have always been some % of users. And, now that more and more
| people are using macs that % turns into absolute larger
| numbers.
| Joeri wrote:
| A certain percentage of ram and storage goes bad in ways
| that cause this kind of instability, and an upgrade will
| have a tendency to bring this out. I've had my own share of
| stability issues fixed by ram and storage swaps. Too bad
| new macs no longer allow this kind of repair.
| incanus77 wrote:
| I have an M1 mini and an M1 Pro 14", both with 16GB. I
| upgraded both to Ventura 13.1 and have really had zero issues
| with a variety of hardware setups.
|
| The software _design_ however... yes, Apple is sliding. The
| new Settings is a mess. It's so disorienting, even when I put
| aside the fact that I had used the old, NeXT-derived one for
| 20 years. You just can't find anything without search, which
| adds steps.
|
| There is a relative lack of attention to polish,
| discoverability, and charm. It's all just made to be slick
| and shiny now.
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| The settings window in MacOS needed to evolve IMHO. Just
| like the old disgusting confusing Windows
| settings/profilers/doodads, it worked only for old Mac
| power users. When the young audience is coming from iOS,
| MacOS has to satisfy what they're used to. And Apple needs
| to stay consistent to not become like Windows.
|
| As I age and switch constantly between OSes and devices for
| work, search has increasingly become my primary way of
| finding settings and whatnot. The part of my brain that
| remembers things spacially just doesn't bother anymore.
| qwytw wrote:
| The old setting app was nowhere near the mess Windows
| settings apps are. And I'm not quite sure what's so
| complicated about the old settings for iOS users? It is
| way more non power users friendly than the old windows
| control panel and imho actually more simple and easier to
| use than iOS settings (where I find it impossible to find
| anything without search and search doesn't even work that
| great there..)
| incanus77 wrote:
| Yeah, I can see this. However, I've been on iOS from the
| start (as a developer) and there is not a lot of sense to
| why some settings are organized the way that they are.
|
| - "General" is a trash fire of hodgepodge
|
| - "Home Screen" & "Wallpaper" are separate top-levels
|
| In general, the top level items are grouped by task, but
| the tasks aren't labeled but instead implied:
| - Radio signals (Airplane Mode, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth)
| - Noise & distractions (Notifications, Sounds, Focus,
| Screen Time) - Input, output, and appearance
| (General, Control Center, Display, ... Touch ID, ...)
| - Purchasing (App Store, Wallet & Apple Pay)
| - Apple apps (except for the first, Passwords)... Mail,
| Contacts, Calendar, ... - Apple apps with
| media (Music, TV, Photos, ...) - All the
| other apps
|
| This is on iOS. Is it too much to ask for some commitment
| to naming of these sections?
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| Oh yeah agreed, hence my approach with search taking
| over. Who has the time to be pointing around ever
| changing menus. (Which fails of course when what you're
| looking for can't be easily named to search.)
|
| But for a corporation making these decisions, I would
| venture that the questions around how iOS should do it
| better are a separate concern from this merging the iOS
| way into the Mac way.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _The hardware is indeed great. The software experience is
| getting worse imo, particularly when upgrading._
|
| Yeah, I feel the same. It's 180 degrees from a few years ago,
| when the MacBook specs were ho-hum but using MacOS was a big
| benefit (the physical hardware has always been great). The
| overall software experience with MacOS is now just "okay".
| The upgrade process is slow and there are a few UI quirks
| that other OS's just seem to do better.
| linhns wrote:
| I feel like Apple has forgotten what makes their Macs so
| successful, which is the seamless experience. I always
| wanted to own the latest one but not anymore, will stick
| with Linux.
| mcv wrote:
| Yeah, not as enthusiastic about OS X as I used to be, but I
| wish I had that kind of hardware in everything now.
| jd3 wrote:
| Maybe it's my nostalgia/rose tinted glasses talking, but
| I recently used one of the old white plastic macbooks
| running Snow Leopard 10.6.8 and was shocked at how
| instantaneous the user interface felt in comparison with
| Ventura on a modern machine. Even small details, such as
| opening/closing windows and typing text into TextEdit
| feels like it has lower delay/input lag on the old
| hardware/software.
|
| Had a similar feeling while playing with an old iPod
| touch running the skeuomorphic/pre-flat iOS when compared
| with a modern iPhone.
| sneak wrote:
| I recently decommissioned my iMac Pro and wiped its
| storage, which involved a High Sierra reinstall via
| Internet Recovery (http netboot).
|
| It's amazing how snappy it is. I wish Apple would offer
| levers to turn off all the new (and laggy) features in
| their OSes for those of us who just want a computer to be
| simple and run apps.
| mcv wrote:
| That's the thing. Hardware keeps getting more and more
| powerful, but somehow the computers its in don't seem to
| be getting any faster. UI responses should be
| instantaneous by now. They used to be. Why aren't they?
| How many cores do these things have? Why is one of them
| not dedicated to catering to my impatience?
|
| Sorry, that was getting a bit ranty.
| meltyness wrote:
| It's the event-driven event-driven event-driven
| programming programming programming.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Snow Leopard was a high point for stability and speed.
| Unfortunately, changing expectations of integrations and
| feature demands meant they couldn't stay there.
|
| What is rose-tinted is the OP's remembering the OSes of a
| few years ago being great. Mojave and Catalina had a
| bunch of annoyances and weren't as good at recovering
| from a bad install or a bad update push as Monterey and
| Ventura. Not that Monterey and Ventura are great either.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| > I used to praise macOS for its stability. It's still on
| average very stable, but in the last ~5 years the upgrade
| experience has not been rock solid anymore. I must have used
| at least a dozen Macbook Pro/Air and Mac Pro in that time, so
| I know it's not just 1 buggy laptop.
|
| If you think that is bad... don't get me started on Screen
| Time in macOS. It is 100% broken, in every way, for kids and
| adults, in the most inexplicable ways possible. [Example: The
| "internet filter" fails _open_ after a few hours. You thought
| your 8-year-old was only on approved sites? MacOS says yes,
| but actually no.]
| garyrob wrote:
| My own experience is different. \Years ago I would wait at
| least 6 months or more before doing a mac upgrade because of
| the inevitable problems. With Ventura I didn't even wait for
| the first point release, and had no problems whatsoever. (I
| did have two complete backups handy just in case.)
|
| I'm not invaliding your experience, just mentioning that
| others have different experiences.
| victor106 wrote:
| This has been my experience as well. One of the first times
| I had zero issues with a major Mac OS upgrade.
| dwighttk wrote:
| I turned on auto updates and haven't seen any problems
| since.
| wyclif wrote:
| Same here. Traditionally, I always waited for the point one
| release before upgrading. This time with Ventura, for the
| first time I just updated to the point zero release and
| crossed my fingers. No problems, so I'm quite pleased.
| stouset wrote:
| Seconded. I've never hesitated with an OS upgrade, and I've
| never experienced anything resembling a critical issue.
| NegativeLatency wrote:
| > plugged in for 12 hours, connected to 2 other displays
|
| Going back to the early osx versions there's have been weird
| problems when upgrading with peripherals and stuff plugged in
| dividedbyzero wrote:
| Just to leave that n=1 here, I haven't really used a laptop
| without an external display (and USB keyboard, Magic Mouse,
| LAN adapter ...) in well over a decade, and I've never had
| any issues upgrading macOS, neither on Intel nor on M2.
| gigatexal wrote:
| Yup. Software is why I am on Linux on a thinkpad. It's fast
| enough. And I control everything.
| throwntoday wrote:
| As soon as Asahi gets proper GPU support I'm installing
| linux and relegating macOS to a tiny partition for managing
| my iPhone.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| I'm surprised there are still people out there using
| their Mac to manage their iPhone.
| photonbeam wrote:
| Is there a way on Linux to backup the photos to the
| computer without using a cloud service?
| Joeri wrote:
| You can run owncloud and use their app to automatically
| upload photos and videos in the background.
| est31 wrote:
| Yes! There is an OSS implementation of (parts of) the
| proprietary protocol for USB communication to iTunes so
| you can indeed get your photos. I say parts because some
| functionality is not implemented, like the offline
| backups feature.
|
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/IOS
| xpe wrote:
| You may control _more_ but not certainly everything. You
| choose from the options available to you. You don't control
| the processor internals, chipset, networking hardware, or
| millions of decisions behind the software and hardware. I'd
| say you curate, but you don't really control.
| csdvrx wrote:
| > You may control _more_ but not certainly everything
|
| I control some important details, like having 128G of RAM
| and a dual 4Tb NVMe setup.
| gigatexal wrote:
| You're being needlessly pendantic: of course I don't
| control the stuff in the cpu or the firmware blobs in the
| Wifi ... but I control my OS and have freedom to choose a
| different distro or even a BSD one if I like -- I love
| that I'm part of a community of hackers of fellow Linux
| nerds (and thinkpad enthusiasts) instead of being
| beholden to a giant company to dictate the direction the
| OS will take. It has its pros and it has its cons but on
| the whole I like it a ton more.
| xpe wrote:
| Yes, I understand what you are saying.
|
| It is interesting: I clarify and point out the limits of
| your (own) control, which you agree with, but you still
| call me pedantic.
|
| You didn't have to write "everything". You could have
| said "more".
|
| It is so easy for open source proponents (which I am, but
| not to an unlimited degree) to fall into these illusions
| that are entangled with imprecise language.
|
| Perhaps the answer is not to shoot the messenger? Perhaps
| the cause of the negativity is the realization that we
| don't have that much control. You knew this at some
| level, but your choice of language downplays it. The big
| manufacturers are in the drivers seat, like it or not.
| This reality is uncomfortable. Better not to mention it,
| then!
| gigatexal wrote:
| If I was being too harsh I am sorry. I mean I am open to
| moving from the traditional AMI bios to CoreBoot but I am
| not a FOSS zealot. I mean I have to get work done. So I
| make compromises.
|
| I think we're very much on the same page.
| xpe wrote:
| No problem at all. I just learned about CoreBoot, BTW,
| thanks for mentioning firmware.
| optymizer wrote:
| I can't even resume my Ubuntu ThinkPad from suspend without
| the nVidia driver going absolutely off the rails. I'm
| generally happy with the laptop, but it's got basic issues
| that Macbooks solved decades ago. The touchpad is
| noticeably worse.
| gigatexal wrote:
| To be completely fair an apples-to-apples comparison
| would be an all Intel (GPU included) laptop or one with
| an AMD GPU'd laptop as their drivers are baked into the
| kernel and are 1st-class supported. This, to me, is akin
| to the Apple top-down, wholly owned model. Even Intel
| MacBooks stopped shipping Nvidia GPUs years ago.
|
| But... I get you. To have a really good experience you
| need to have a really supported setup and then everything
| works swimmingly. My work issued thinkpad is the AMD
| version of the P14s and it's brilliant.
| mo_42 wrote:
| Personally, I switched to Asahi Linux on my M1. It's
| becoming the perfect experience for me: Apple hardware with
| an OS without bloat.
|
| (Yes, many things don't work yet. For personal use it's
| fine though)
| cpsns wrote:
| I'll never be overly critical of anyone's computing
| choices, but this just seems like the worst of both
| worlds to me unless you specifically want to tinker with
| Apple-ARM Linux.
|
| Why not Linux on much better supported hardware from
| Lenovo or Dell? It just doesn't make sense to me to buy
| such an expensive computer only to remove a core part of
| the package, Mac OS.
| tgma wrote:
| > Why not Linux on much better supported hardware from
| Lenovo or Dell?
|
| Specific Intel laptops aside, something doesn't work for
| each of them either. These days sleep is a big issue with
| Linux on modern Intel laptops due to Windows Modern
| Standby. All in all, characterizing Asahi Linux as poorly
| supported is probably just based on some expectation that
| does not necessarily match reality. It runs very well and
| GPU is about the only thing that is missing. Plus, Linux
| on Macs has always had the advantage of having a big
| community focused on solving very standardized hardware
| issues. Once they work they work for everyone out of the
| box.
| JimBlackwood wrote:
| I think you'd be surprised!
|
| I have a Dell Workstation from work (Specifically a Linux
| supported one, whatever that means) using linux and my
| personal Macbook Air M1 is running Asahi Linux.
|
| I really ran into no issues, the experience was almost
| scarily smooth. Everything just works. Sleep is
| definitely worse than on MacOS but it's better than my
| Dell.
|
| I can't name a single thing that is not equally bad or
| worse on the Dell.
| cpsns wrote:
| Fair enough, I wasn't aware they'd made so much progress.
| I was under the impression it was still a proof of
| concept and people were glossing over a lot of issues.
|
| I guess that's the benefit of only having to target a
| very small amount of hardware, it saves time for
| improving other things.
|
| I remember preferring Linux on PPC to Linux on intel
| laptops years ago. Apple PPC laptops tended to "just
| work" with Linux in my experience.
| hirako2000 wrote:
| Because Lenovo, Dell don't make laptops as sleek as
| Apple's
|
| I still ditched Apple though, I don't regret having
| traded battery life for compatibility. Arm64 remains a
| pain over 2 years later and for many years to come.
| cpsns wrote:
| How much does sleekness actually matter day to day? Both
| vendors offer very nice hardware these days, it's not the
| bad days mid-00s anymore.
| tobyhinloopen wrote:
| macOS is almost getting worse than Windows, which is
| absolutely amazing.
|
| Every day i have to fight my macbook to get it to work
| properly. It's slow to start up and external display is a
| daily struggle.
|
| And this is a 2019 i9, not some old slow machine
| lostlogin wrote:
| Give Windows 10 or 11 a try. It cured me of this feeling.
|
| The adverts in particular.
| snozolli wrote:
| IMO, Windows is just fine with Classic Shell. I don't
| know how people get by without it since Windows 8.
|
| http://www.classicshell.net/
| TheKnack wrote:
| For both iOS and Macos (and Windows for that matter) it's a
| good idea to backup everything and reinstall the OS from
| scratch for each major version. Yes it's a headache but it
| will prevent 10x more headaches that result from upgrading
| from a previous major version. Many of the problems people
| have with Apple OS upgrades are issues that happen during the
| process of converting configurations from one version to the
| next. This is especially true if you've done multiple major
| version upgrades without starting from scratch at some point.
|
| If you upgrade from Catalina -> Big Sur -> Monterey ->
| Ventura, for example, it becomes like a game of telephone.
| Small issues that happen with converting configurations
| accumulate. This makes me wonder if Apple tests new versions
| installed from scratch rather than upgraded over multiple
| generations like what happens in the real world.
| unilynx wrote:
| I do a full macOS reinstall approx 1.5 years, depending on
| external factors, mostly to be able to clean up obsolete
| apps/packages/etc (after the reinstall I move everything
| into a "Old machine" folder and only move back what I need.
| only drawback is winding up with an "Oldmac" folder inside
| the "Oldmac" folder inside the "Oldmac..." well one day
| I'll clear those up)
|
| But I've never felt like needing to do that with iOS - the
| only 'reinstall' occurs when I upgrade devices (and then I
| restore from iCloud backup). What problems did you run into
| that were resolved by a clean reinstall of iOS?
| kaidon wrote:
| This is why I never upgrade my Mac. The lost productivity
| risk is just not worth it.
| [deleted]
| lwhi wrote:
| This used to be the standard advice for MS Windows.
|
| Funny to think that it's now Apple who have this problem.
| CharlesW wrote:
| This is still worth doing occasionally on Windows, but
| iOS users have never had to do this, and there's been no
| reason for Mac users to do this since the System 7 (pre-
| Mac OS X) days. Some habits die hard, though.
| BrandonS113 wrote:
| I have a mac that has only been upgraded between what 20
| major versions and migrated between 6 macs since 2003,
| never an issue small or large. Never reinstalled from
| scratch. You must have had bad luck.
| pleb_nz wrote:
| And why can't my mac remember what screen applications were
| on when I unlock the screen. Everytime, unlock, drag them
| back to right screens, resize them. If someone has a fuc for
| this I'm an ears, but seems to me it should work out if the
| box.
| optymizer wrote:
| Actually, I've noticed that if I plug in the displays after
| I log in, the windows do get repositioned based on the
| screen they were previously on. I haven't looked into it at
| all though.
| Swizec wrote:
| To offer a counter anecdote: I've always had a rock solid
| upgrade experience in the past few years and remember how
| something would always break up until around ~5 years ago.
|
| Upgrading used to be _an event_. Now it's a meh-fest of
| clicking a button, waiting a little, and being unimpressed
| with the new features thinking "why did I even bother? Total
| waste of an hour"
| itslennysfault wrote:
| I feel like people have ALWAYS had problems when upgrading
| MacOS (or OSX). However, those problems aren't with the OS
| itself usually, but 3rd party software that lags. For that
| reason I always intentionally lag 1 major version behind.
| I'll upgrade to Ventura whenever the next version is
| released. Been doing this forever and can't recommend it
| highly enough.
| fruit2020 wrote:
| Just look at the Ventura settings window dude. How are they
| so sloppy that it cannot even scale properly, not
| commenting here about how ugly the experience is. At least
| make it scale a bit. Oh, and I did not say that it even has
| a lag when it loads, on a fresh login with no apps.
| CharlesW wrote:
| IMHO Ventura's rethink is a huge improvement -- search is
| now actually useful, 3rd-party extensibility is much
| better, etc. (It does scale vertically, BTW. The old one
| did not.)
| fruit2020 wrote:
| Snappy it is not. I think they've used the latest UX
| pattern called 'click & wait'
| znpy wrote:
| > but 3rd party software that lags
|
| Microsoft does distribute beta versions of Windows for
| third-parties to test against.
|
| Does apple do the same? If Apple doesn't, then it's Apple's
| we have to blame it onto.
| waboremo wrote:
| I don't entirely think it's just 3rd party software, I
| think Apple's decision to bundle major app and OS updates
| together gives people the illusion that every major release
| is causing problems.
|
| If they were to separate their first party app updates and
| OS updates (release wise, they can still market them
| together), more people would be able to pinpoint "ok it's
| not the entire update since I was on it just fine for a
| month, but actually just the notes app updated yesterday
| eating battery randomly". At least for cautious users.
| ynx wrote:
| OS X user since 10.3, and while I share the opinion that
| their software quality has gone downhill, they've always
| done bundled app and OS upgrades: they co-develop major
| updates to the OS and its SDKs with applications that
| make use of them. That isn't a major delta from prior
| releases which held themselves to higher standards.
|
| While holding back app updates to stabilize the early
| upgrade experience might _work_ , it's also somewhat
| contradictory to the idea that they upgraded the apps and
| their features _and upgraded the OS as necessary to
| support the apps and features_.
| dmitryminkovsky wrote:
| I've never had a problem upgrading macOS... I've never had
| a noteworthy problem with Macs in general.
| bastardoperator wrote:
| Same. It's easy to say I don't like the software when
| that's the ecosystem you're living in. Go do windows for
| a month, hell, even my ubuntu certified laptop has issues
| with Ubuntu. There is no perfect experience but I would
| argue the alternatives are vastly worse.
| KMnO4 wrote:
| The last version that was 100% forward progress for me was
| Snow Leopard, which was essentially the performance/bug fix
| revision of Leopard. The Windows 7 from Vista equivalent.
|
| Every update since then has felt slow, or introduced bugs.
| Perhaps it was because Snow Leopard came on a physical
| disk, so they couldn't "just ship it".
| ianai wrote:
| I think it's time for them to do an OS upgrade like SL
| again. Just bug fixes. But this time they need to do it
| across all their devices too.
| coob wrote:
| People have said this for every single OS X release...
| flenserboy wrote:
| Not just one -- two release cycles focused solely on bugs
| & performance are really in order. The sheer amount of
| change, necessary and otherwise, that has been dropped on
| the macOS in recent years has left things a right mess
| under the hood. Shoot, one release cycle alone should be
| focused on fixing/reversing the attempts to iOSify the
| Mac. The controls are wrong, the spacing is wrong, the
| appearance is _wrong_. Things are not consistent, and
| they do not work as the rest of the OS gives reason to
| expect.
| nsenifty wrote:
| I remember feeling like how GP (with M1 Pro) feels when I
| upgraded my 2007 Intel MBP with Snow Leopard and and SSD.
| Everything was snappy and instantaneous until the wave of
| Electron apps and Lion and forced convergence with iOS
| design...
| f6v wrote:
| I'm sure there's always been those who were affected.
| There's always been those who weren't. And I think the
| former tend to exaggerate.
| mattwad wrote:
| They could provide a package manager, rather than expecting
| the Homebrew community to fix it for them. My issues are
| almost always related to command line tools
| david_allison wrote:
| An update (Xcode tools) broke git in September. It's not
| just 3rd party software.
| p_l wrote:
| Before they switched to image-based updates over APFS, the
| issue was partially with the upgrade process.
|
| My personal record stood at a bit over one week spent
| observing a dark screen with unmoving progress bar in the
| hopes that this time it will actually finish the upgrade.
| SystemOut wrote:
| My M1 MBP wouldn't reconnect to my monitor via USB-C until I
| unplugged the monitor and plugged it back in. Of course, I
| had to go digging on forums to find that out.
|
| Permission issues also arise after every upgrade. I purposely
| wait until the .1 so that other people find all these issues
| but it's still super annoying.
| penjelly wrote:
| i have similar issues with my m1 max, using an ultrawide
| monitor while in clamshell
| wiremine wrote:
| > The software experience is getting worse imo
|
| EVERY OS release will have some issues, and the people who
| are most impacted are the ones who chime in. If it "just
| works" for someone, they aren't going to chime in.
|
| This is true of Mac, Windows, Linux, etc. I'd be curious to
| see a quantitative pre-release breakdown by OS and version.
| That might be more useful than individual anecdotes, as
| interesting as those are.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Rolling release distros avoid this by not having these
| giant catastrophic upgrades.
|
| It seems weird that these companies which presumably employ
| some programmers have this convention of bundling up all
| the bugs together for some nice combinatorial confusion.
| Everybody knows you keep your code in a working state from
| commit to commit, so you only have to handle one bug at a
| time, right?
| IntelMiner wrote:
| Okay, sure. Fine. Humans write software and humans make
| mistakes
|
| * _However*_ Apple specifically only targets a very small
| subset of devices. The amount of obvious bugs that slip
| through in every release upgrade against such a small
| handful of devices from a company as big as Apple is pretty
| disappointing
|
| Windows has to run on the overwhelming majority of "weird"
| x86 devices on the planet. The amount of work they have to
| put in with their hardware partners is comparatively
| staggering
| wiremine wrote:
| Microsoft has done a great job, don't get me wrong.
|
| My question is still legit: is there an (relatively)
| unbiased third-party that tracks bugs across major OS
| releases? Is that a bad question to ask?
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| > It's crazy how far ahead Apple is getting in the laptop game
| with these new chips.
|
| For people who don't mind an ultra-brittle screen or who don't
| mind paying an extra 20% Apple tax to get their screen replaced
| when it breaks. Had a M1 Mac. Screen broke overnight. Meanwhile
| my LG Gram feels _way_ more sturdy and hasn 't let me down in
| years. M1 Mac lasted about 13 months.
|
| Not happy at all with Apple asking 680 EUR to replace the
| screen on a M1 Mac I paid... 1 000 EUR. 68% after 13 months to
| replace their shitty screen.
|
| And to get what? Another brittle screen.
|
| Sure, it _looks_ nice. But my LG Gram wins, hands down: I can
| count on that thing.
| prng2021 wrote:
| That's unfortunate you had a terrible experience but in all
| fairness, you're one data point. You can simply google "most
| reliable laptop" and see the that Apple is consistently
| ranked #1.
|
| As for my own single data point, I have the following in my
| house and none have had any issues whatsoever: - 2012 inch
| MacBook Pro - 2017 12 inch MacBook - 2019 MacBook Pro - 2021
| Intel MacBook Pro (Company machine) - 2021 M1 MacBook Pro
| nchi3 wrote:
| My workplace is all MacBooks, and a lot of employees have
| gone over to M1s, and I have not heard of a single case of
| this happening.
| lawgimenez wrote:
| My toddler would stomp and throw my old MBP 2015 and I
| wouldn't worry a bit since I know this model is durable
| enough. I can't say the same with the latest models.
| m_eiman wrote:
| Since you say EUR, I suppose you're in Europe. Which means
| that your broken screen should be covered by the EU rules
| mandating at least two years guarantee:
|
| https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua.
| ..
|
| " You always have the right to a minimum 2-year guarantee at
| no cost, regardless of whether you bought your goods online,
| in a shop or by mail order.
|
| This 2-year guarantee is your minimum right, however national
| rules in your country may give you extra protection.
|
| If goods you bought anywhere in the EU turn out to be faulty
| or do not look or work as advertised, the seller must repair
| or replace them free of charge or give you a price reduction
| or a full refund. "
| jnsie wrote:
| > For people who don't mind an ultra-brittle screen or who
| don't mind paying an extra 20% Apple tax to get their screen
| replaced when it breaks. Had a M1 Mac. Screen broke
| overnight. Meanwhile my LG Gram feels way more sturdy and
| hasn't let me down in years. M1 Mac lasted about 13 months.
|
| Not being pithy but is this a common issue? It's not one I've
| previously heard people complain about, the screen on my
| current gen and prior (2012?) MacBook pros but seem very
| solid so I'm surprised that this is considered a weak
| point...
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > For people who don't mind an ultra-brittle screen
|
| Have had an M1 Macbook Pro for 2 years now. Dropped it
| several times from various heights up to 4ft. Dropped books
| on it a couple of times. Screen still intact. "ultra-brittle"
| is nonsense.
|
| (And in the 10 years I've owned Macbooks, never have I broken
| a screen despite dropping, etc.)
| cassianoleal wrote:
| The M1 Air I'm typing on has been shot down from desk to
| floor due to a golden retriever tripping on the charging
| cable running after a ball. It flew about 2m horizontally,
| and the height of the desk vertically. It has a very
| noticeable bump on the corner of the case. The screen
| though, is good as new.
| John23832 wrote:
| More anectdata. 16" M1 MBP user here (first batch).
|
| No problems with the screen. Travels with me literally
| everywhere I can take my backpack. No case.
|
| Are you using your laptop as a frisbee?
|
| As far as Apple tax, you pay for quality tools. In life you
| get what you pay for.
| eropple wrote:
| They're not even that expensive as tools go, either.
|
| My Festool Domino was $1200. It makes one particular hole
| in a piece of wood. It's very, very good at it--but it
| doesn't replace my tablesaw ($600) or my bandsaw ($700) or
| my tracksaw ($400) or my drill/driver ($300) or my jointer
| ($600) or my planer ($900) or my drill press ($500) or or
| or--and I did not buy particular spendy variants of any of
| those, except the Domino. (I could've easily spent $2000 on
| a tablesaw alone.)
|
| Contrast this to a $2500 Macbook Pro, which is a future
| computer from beyond the moon that can do a ton of revenue-
| relative work without even kicking on its fans, and can
| watch Netflix besides. It is also _small_ ; it provides all
| those benefits in a thing that can fit on your coffee
| table, without the ongoing costs of storing _actually
| expensive_ tools (edit: as mentioned downthread, for me
| that 's about $550 a _month_ based on my mortgage 's square
| footage calculation).
|
| Computer people complaining about computer costs when
| they're paid six figures for what they do with them is...it
| really needs to stop. It's silly.
| Lio wrote:
| That's an interesting example. Festool are definitely
| premium equipment.
|
| I (try to) buy quality tools but I can't really justify
| Festool for my bodgy DIY attempts. I can barely justify
| the Bosch Professional tools I tend to buy instead.
|
| My friend, an actual professional who fitted our kitchen,
| exclusively uses Festool. He can definitely justify it
| and swears by it. He says it's quicker and the tools suck
| up more dust which means less time cleaning up and less
| exposure to lung disease.
|
| He'd never consider buying a MacBook Pro though as he
| thinks Apple is for poseurs ...like me.
|
| I'm a professional software engineer and not a hairy
| arsed builder[1].
|
| I spend roughly 8-10 hours a day on a laptop and I want a
| nice one. I'm probably going to switch from my Dell
| running Linux back to a MacBook Pro.
|
| (That's for the shiny logo to make me look cool in coffee
| shops and not the battery life, performance or general
| attention to detail obvs.)
|
| With regard to useful lifespan, I have an MBP from 2013
| that's still going strong even if the OS updates from
| Apple are getting sparser.
|
| -
|
| 1. This, apparently, is the vernacular used by friends in
| the trades to describe a "proper" tradesman. You live and
| learn I guess. ;)
| eropple wrote:
| I only bought a Festool Domino because there's literally
| no other tool that does that. It's amazing; the thing is
| like cheating for panels or for trim. Everything else is
| a mix-and-match. My tracksaw is a Makita (uses the same
| rails as a Festool, feels fine, isn't Quite As Nice). My
| shop battery tools are DeWalt, my house battery tools are
| Skil 12V (which are really nice for the price, even if
| they're not as small as other 12V brands). My tablesaw is
| a Delta (also sold as a Ridgid). Though I've thought a
| lot about going to Festool for a hand sander, mine
| are...Bosch. ;)
|
| I do agree with your friend about dust collection though,
| which is why I use the tools I do use. Dust is the
| absolute worst, and it is worth spending money to solve
| that problem IMO. The thing about Festool (and also
| Fein)is that it's good at solving those problems
| _portably_ , and in that light they're not that
| expensive. If you aren't a contractor and don't need to
| bring your entire work life around in a Systainer stack
| though, something like my 1.5HP Harbor Freight dust
| collector and a simple dust cyclone can get you very far
| by themselves. (They are, however, _loud_.)
|
| I've also gotten into 3D printing I've been building
| better dust accessories for my other stuff. (For example
| I've got a set of 4" dust couplers in development that
| are a WIP but are noticeably better than any of the
| options I have found online for a reasonable price _and_
| that work in a home shop without ducting.)
| chamwislothe2nd wrote:
| Those tools will last forever so that money makes sense.
| Apples engages in planned obsolescence so the cost isnt
| the same.
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate
| sgt101 wrote:
| Those tools will last forever, if you don't use them.
|
| But if you do they will wear out.
| eropple wrote:
| Consider how expensive it is to store and operate those
| tools. Square footage isn't cheap most places; my wood
| shop probably costs me about $550 a month in used space!
| In that light, refreshing a laptop every five years or so
| (on the low end for my usual cadence for Macs; both my
| 2016 and 2011 Macbook Pros are _still in use_ for
| dedicated tasks) amortizes out a lot more pleasantly.
| John23832 wrote:
| Lol the funny thing is, I was going to bring up all the
| hardware tools in my garage as examples, but I figured
| most people here wouldn't care/get it.
| eropple wrote:
| Computer-toucher-to-woodworker pipeline is real.
| anthomtb wrote:
| Nothing relieves a day at the keyboard like the smell of
| sawdust.
| ripperdoc wrote:
| For what it's worth my Macbook Retina has survived mostly
| unscathed since 2012 with heavy daily use. Two battery
| replacements, fraying charging cables and some worn out key
| faces, that's about it. Then again, I'm sure later MacBooks
| might be less sturdy?
| madaxe_again wrote:
| I've probably the same model as you - and yeah, apart from
| two battery swaps and a new power brick, and the occasional
| fur removal (cats), it's a trooper. I've dropped it plenty,
| so it has aerodynamic corners, but it has never let me
| down. Battery swaps are far easier than ifixit etc.
| describe - I just used fishing line and a couple of sticks
| as handles to cut through the glue without having to remove
| anything but the bottom case.
|
| That said, I have heard frequent gripes from people with
| newer models about things like hinges, ports coming loose,
| and keyboards failing - I mean, from my experience with
| their software quality over the years, I wouldn't be
| surprised if their hardware design, while having plenty of
| great new tech, lacks attention to detail.
| rsynnott wrote:
| ... Huh. That is one Apple complaint I've never heard. Had
| various Mac laptops since 2004 and never seen a screen crack
| (on my own one; for what it's worth, I do know two separate
| people whose Apple laptop's screen cracked because their _cat
| bit it_, but I assume that can happen for any laptop with a
| sufficiently weird cat).
|
| And, really, a screen is a screen is a screen; any laptop
| screen is likely to be about as fragile as any other.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| The problem isn't that the screen breaks; the problem are
| their ridiculous repair prices.
|
| The repair prices are artificially inflated because there
| is no competition and they don't sell spares, and I think
| they keep them high on purpose to push their insurance
| product Apple Care. (Which is a great business for Apple,
| because the repairs are much cheaper for them than what
| they charge uninsured customers)
| kube-system wrote:
| I've never had an issue with a 20w Anker Nano charging my non-
| pro M1. Feels like the future charging my laptop with an
| adapter the size of an iPhone charger.
| ja27 wrote:
| Yeah my 16" M1 Pro draws 10-12w a lot of the time even with
| Slack, browser, Docker, and more running.
| eertami wrote:
| >It's crazy how far ahead Apple is getting in the laptop game
| with these new chips. I have the first gen MacBook Pro with the
| M1 Pro (ok maybe they're not winning the naming game), and it's
| a perfect computer. Battery life is literally all day, every
| single action is instant, I have zero regard for many apps or
| tabs I have open
|
| I can say the exact same thing for my Linux XPS, in fairness.
| My M1 battery will last longer, for sure, but both will last a
| whole work day. But because the M1 can't run Linux to a good
| standard, it's mostly just used to test/debug OSX related
| issues.
| superkuh wrote:
| Things may be great on the high end of Apple's M1/M2 laptops
| given they actually have enough ram for simple tasks. But those
| are also insanely expensive. At the low end Apple is actively
| ripping off users providing computers which can't even edit
| photos.
|
| My father, a long time apple user, decided to get an Apple M1
| to replace his old Apple macbook. He bought the M1 8GB model
| (without consulting me). Turns out that the Apple M1 w/8GB uses
| ~4GB of that just to run the OS and if you happen to install
| adobe creative cloud there goes another 2GB and if you use some
| other "darkroom-alike" program to open a 20MB photo suddenly
| you're out of RAM and the software starts crashing.
|
| Apple M1 8GB computers, stuffing the cache with their rosetta
| translation and lack of native software, cannot even edit
| photos. They're only good for surfing the web and sending
| email. Apple selling these as actual functioning general
| purpose laptops is a fraud.
| mandmandam wrote:
| ... I think your dad got a funky laptop.
|
| I've been on an 8GB M1 for two years, running Adobe CC the
| entire time. I've edited absolutely massive photos - Gigabyte
| TIFFs, batch processing, etc - and never had any crashes.
|
| In fact I've done the above while playing HD video from
| YouTube with 40 tabs open and not experienced so much as a
| hiccup.
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| Or they're using a pirated version of Creative Cloud from
| before 2020?
| habosa wrote:
| Yes. I feel that the tech media has done a terrible
| disservice by recommending the 8GB Apple M1 laptops. I am not
| sure what it is about that architecture but they are
| completely unusable under load in a way that's not true of my
| 2015 i5 laptop which also has 8GB of RAM (which is slow all
| the time, but not as bad at the worst times as the M1 was).
| shusaku wrote:
| Surely such an issue would have been solved with the
| invention of virtual memory in... the 50s?
| danbee wrote:
| Indeed, and said feature allowed me to open and edit 70MB
| photoshop files on a Pentium 75 with 4MB of RAM back in the
| late 90's. Albeit pretty slowly.
| geophile wrote:
| [flagged]
| slm_HN wrote:
| Tell me you don't have anything to contribute other than
| a weak, ten year old meme without saying that you don't
| have anything to contribute other than a weak, ten year
| old meme.
| clint wrote:
| [flagged]
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| > Apple M1 8GB computers, stuffing the cache with their
| rosetta translation and lack of native software
|
| This is not how this works
| astrojams wrote:
| I believe that the M1 architecture is such that you don't
| actually need as much RAM as an older model computer. It is a
| system on a chip so moving data between RAM and storage is so
| fast that it can swap between the two without much
| performance degradation.
| xpe wrote:
| > It is a system on a chip so moving data between RAM and
| storage is so fast that it can swap between the two without
| much performance degradation.
|
| How much faster? I'm not sure what your specific point of
| comparison is.
|
| Sure, the SoC provides many advantages, many due to Apple's
| UMA (Apple's Unified Memory Architecture) but the system is
| still limited by storage speed and latency.
|
| But if we're talking about the relative performance
| difference between solid state memory (i.e. SSDs, if that
| is the correct technical term here) and UMA RAM, I'd
| expect* a significant difference, perhaps (1) an order of
| magnitude in terms of latency and (2) 2X to 5X in terms of
| bandwidth. Not to mention that excessive SSD writes would
| be unwise.
|
| Now I will admit, if there are large parts of the operating
| system that don't need to linger / lurk / creep around in
| RAM, they could be swapped out. And they might even be kept
| on SSD and not have to be rewritten at all except for
| patches and upgrades.
|
| * This is a guess based on 'usual' data-locality rules of
| thumb, hopefully allowing for Apple architecture somewhat.
| I'm happy to be educated / corrected.
| jclardy wrote:
| To me this sounds like issues on the Adobe side. I worked for
| 6 months on an M1 iMac with 8GB ram - it ran Xcode, iOS Sim,
| figma, slack, safari, terminal, calendar and zoom
| simultaneously for work on a large iOS app with zero issues.
| I used it because it was faster than using my i9 MBP 16" with
| 32GB of RAM - the MBP would be blasting its fans constantly
| with the same workload.
|
| Now I'm on an M2 Air and I don't see myself needing to
| upgrade in the next 2-3 years.
| singhrac wrote:
| This is kind of a crazy story to me, and likely pointing to
| other issues. The "4GB just to run the OS" is probably just
| macOS preemptively caching... and all Macs use swap
| extensively so using e.g. 10GB of memory actively is totally
| fine. I've run out of memory before, but only with serious
| usage (100s of tabs, VSCode, a 100 MB+ pdf open, etc), and
| even then there was no actual crashes, I was told that I was
| using too much memory and suggested some programs to close.
| What was the "darkroom-alike" program?
| tigeroil wrote:
| To be fair I have a work-provided MacBook Pro (Intel to be
| fair) with 8GB of RAM and it's borderline unusable.
|
| If I didn't have experience with higher-specced Macs in the
| past the experience would be enough to make me swear off
| ever using Macs again.
| magic_hamster wrote:
| Sounds a lot like Lightroom. Last time I used it (on
| Windows) it was a couple of years ago and while it was
| incredibly convenient for editing photos quickly, it was
| massively unoptimized. Drop a couple of pins and Lightroom
| starts hogging cycles and memory. I wouldn't even joke
| about running it with 8GB RAM let alone 4.
|
| All that aside, it's borderline criminal any new computer
| is being sold with 8GB RAM. This is 2023 for crying out
| loud. Do you want a 56K modem to go along with your
| miniscule amount of memory?
| null_object wrote:
| > At the low end Apple is actively ripping off users
| providing computers which can't even edit photos.
|
| > open a 20MB photo suddenly you're out of RAM and the
| software starts crashing
|
| Have an M1 laptop with Photoshop and Lightroom and need to
| edit 16-bit film-scans from a 6x12 that are _more than a
| GIGABYTE each_ and have had zero issues.
| neighbor1 wrote:
| Sounds like you have Activity Monitor open constantly.
| Personally I wouldn't worry so much about RAM usage and
| instead let the computer do it's thing. I have done intense
| tests with my 8GB and it handled them just fine (compiling
| linux while having dozens of tabs open + recording screen +
| UTM VM, etc.).
|
| The only reason I got a Mac for the first time is because the
| 8GB had good value. I would never buy the higher-end Macs
| because spending that much money on a fragile thing that
| cannot be upgraded is ridiculous to me.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| I can't speak to Adobe's problems but the M1 8GB has been
| shockingly fast in my experience, and has no issue at all
| with image editing.
| abakker wrote:
| Interesting. I have one of those computers with 8gb and have
| not had problems with Lightroom, Photoshop, or Autodesk
| fusion360. I'm not saying that there are no issues, but the
| m1s in my experience seem to need less RAM to do the same
| things.
| spenvo wrote:
| > far ahead
|
| Losing external GPU support with apple silicon has become a
| major deal. In the age of AI tools like stable diffusion,
| performance per watt matters less if you lose the capability to
| scale up these kind of workloads. Gurman's report about the mac
| pro tower gave us reason to hope on this (that the upcoming mac
| pro will have eGPU support), but when it comes to MacBooks, let
| alone the pros, no one knows when/if the support will arrive
| and when/if nvidia support will be added.
| thrtythreeforty wrote:
| Do these work on Linux? Or is it a limitation of the silicon?
| nostrademons wrote:
| You typically wouldn't use a Macbook for that though. If you
| want to do AI research, buy a gaming rig (< $1000) or rent a
| cloud GPU instance and then remote desktop or SSH in from the
| laptop. Then you get the portability and battery life of the
| laptop, and once you start training you can put it to sleep
| and the remote instance will just keep humming away.
| wmf wrote:
| Apple hates Nvidia and will never support them.
| nvarsj wrote:
| Def the opposite experience for me software wise. Latest joy is
| chrome hanging whenever tabs are moved. Things randomly seem to
| crash all the time.
|
| Maybe it's normal for OS X but my Linux experience is pretty
| much the opposite - rock solid, everything is fast, and nothing
| breaks. Granted the hardware does seem really good (except for
| slow anything to do with x86 and a useless GPU that can't play
| games or do VR).
| GoldenRacer wrote:
| For me, it's the WiFi that is completely botched. The status
| bar will frequently display incorrect statuses and trying to
| select a network from the status bar hardly ever works. I
| have to go into system preferences which has a tendency to
| totally freeze up for minutes at a time when I select the
| network tab.
|
| Then it'll occasionally get into a state where it tells me
| it's connected to the network but doesn't have Internet
| access and it must be a problem with the network (I know it's
| not because I have other devices connected to the same
| network that work fine). To get out of this, I have to turn
| WiFi off and back on again but Apple in there infinite wisdom
| has decided if I turn it off and back on too quickly, I
| must've done so by mistake and so they don't actually ever
| turn it off. So I have to turn it off, wait some unknown
| period of time (I usually wait 30s), and then turn it back
| on. Drives me crazy.
|
| In the end, every morning when I get to work, I expect it to
| be roughly 5 minutes between when I arrive and when I'm
| actually online.
|
| My personal computer running Linux has never had such a
| ridiculous issue (it does occasionally have issues but
| they're usually fixable after a quick Google search) but
| somehow everyone claims Apple just works and Linux is to much
| of a pain.
| astrange wrote:
| File a bug. https://feedbackassistant.apple.com
|
| (Or call support, I guess.)
| ggregoire wrote:
| It's obviously not "normal". I don't have any of the issues
| you are mentioning.
| deepGem wrote:
| Or carry the 60W charger and turbocharge the phone, agreed it's
| not as portable as the brick.
| atoav wrote:
| My 2 year old tuxedo notebook costed less than half of what the
| M1 MBP costs and renders any given blender scene 3 to 4 times
| faster.
|
| I consider getting a MBP, but quite frankly I wonder if I could
| really let it crunch "pro" workloads over night, because either
| they have infinitly silent active cooling (doubtful) or they
| throttle the thing (bad). If I pay for top notch hardware I
| want to have it crunch at full blast for as long as I desire,
| if I need it.
| JLCarveth wrote:
| Look into Gallium Nitride (GaN) chargers. I got a 100W charging
| brick on Amazon for a little over $100CAD (a bit pricy yes),
| with 3 USB-C, 1 USB-A. There are cheaper models with less ports
| / wattage as well. A single brick fast-charges my M2 Macbook
| Air, my Phone, headphones.
| dividedbyzero wrote:
| Those things are crazy compact. I have a tiny Anker 30W
| single USB-C charger for my M2 Macbook Air and iPhone for
| when I don't expect to need a charger and it's hard to not
| lose it because it's so lightweight and small. The cable is a
| lot heavier and bulkier and I already bought the lightest one
| I could find.
| eastbound wrote:
| > It's crazy how far ahead Apple is getting in the laptop game
| with these new chips.
|
| Sure, but developing with Java up-to-16 is much slower with
| M1/M2 due to ports not being available, and Rosetta having to
| emulate. Datapoint: We develop plugins for Confluence and it's
| about 1 minute to load each page.
|
| I don't think developing Java 11 is a corner case of using a
| Mac.
| syspec wrote:
| Hmm, works great here. I use ARM Java
| threeseed wrote:
| ARM builds have been available for a while now even for Java
| 11.
|
| * AWS Corretto: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/corretto/latest/c
| orretto-11-ug/d...
|
| * Eclipse Temurin:
| https://adoptium.net/temurin/releases/?version=11
|
| * IBM Semeru:
| https://developer.ibm.com/languages/java/semeru-
| runtimes/dow...
|
| * Oracle GraalVM: https://github.com/graalvm/graalvm-ce-
| builds/releases/tag/vm...
| david_allison wrote:
| Azul Zulu works great:
| https://www.azul.com/downloads/?package=jdk#download-openjdk
| thrashh wrote:
| The Java ARM versions don't work for you?
| nscalf wrote:
| I got an M1 for a recent job change, I've never interacted with
| one before that and my personal laptop was a relatively old
| macbook. The thing that amazed me the most was the speed. I
| would actually get confused because it did things so much
| faster than I was used to, I would sit and wait for something
| to happen only to realize it was so fast I had missed it
| occurring.
| breck wrote:
| I'm also still on the MacBook Pro M1 and it's amazing. But this
| new one makes me drool. I am happy to see MagSafe back and the
| SD card slot and USB-C ports on both sides.
|
| Now someone grab my arms before I dump water on this keyboard.
| masklinn wrote:
| All of that was already on the M1 versions of the same
| laptops though wasn't it?
| breck wrote:
| No. At least not on this one: MacBook Pro (13-inch, M1,
| 2020)
| masklinn wrote:
| As far as I can see the laptops in TFA are 14 and 16".
|
| The 13" remains a heavier Air, with two ports on the same
| side and no magsafe: https://www.apple.com/macbook-
| pro-13/specs/
| breck wrote:
| Ah got it! Yes mine is a 13". Maybe I'll go 14".
| masklinn wrote:
| They're great machines but do be aware they're a fair bit
| heavier than the 13", even the 14" is 0.5lb heavier (3.5
| to 3). (The 16" is a 4.7lb chonk).
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| IIRC, Apple offered (offers? I haven't checked) the 13" M1
| which was based on the previous chassis, then launched the
| 14/16" on the new one.
| masklinn wrote:
| Well yes but that new chassis, with magsafe, 3xUSB-C,
| HDMI, and SD, was launched in 2021, with the M1-based 14"
| and 16".
|
| The M2-based 13" still has two USB-C on the same side and
| no SD: https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-13/specs/
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| The comment you replied to says that their MacBook M1
| does not have those features.
|
| It does not have an SD card slot not MagSafe because it
| was a 13" M1 MacBook Pro. Nobody claimed that their
| MacBook was the latest chassis, just that it had an M1.
|
| > The M2-based 13" still has two USB-C on the same side
| and no SD
|
| One can easily interpret their comment to say that they
| are happy it _still_ has USB-C on both sides. Most non-
| MacBooks have one or two ports, generally on one side
| only. With the addition of other ports, Apple could have
| very well removed some of the USB-C ports.
|
| I'm not sure why you are trying to insist that they don't
| know their own laptop. They even provided you a link
| showing the model did in fact exist.
| masklinn wrote:
| > The comment you replied to says that their MacBook M1
| does not have those features.
|
| The comment I replied to says that they're drooling over
| magsafe, sd card, and USB-C on both sides.
|
| My point is that's been available for 18 months at the
| exact same range position (and a lower price point) as
| the new laptops.
|
| The updated version of their current laptop doesn't have
| any of those.
|
| > I'm not sure why you are trying to insist that they
| don't know their own laptop.
|
| I'm... not doing that?
|
| > They even provided you a link showing the model did in
| fact exist.
|
| I'm the only person who provided any link here.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| I wonder how long until Javon's paradox catches up and degraded
| software quality eats all of the performance gains afforded by
| the new hardware. The 2020s version of "Andy giveth and Bill
| taketh away".
| thefz wrote:
| Do the M* support external displays with are fresh rate greater
| than 60Hz?
| syspec wrote:
| Yes, I have a 4K 144hz gigabyte monitor that runs perfectly
| with it.
|
| You must get a high quality USB-C cable though. I got Anker
| brand cable. Previous cable I had lying around the house
| would only give me 60hz
| fcoury wrote:
| They do. I am on a last gen M1 Pro MacBook 16" using a 240Hz
| display but it's capped at 120Hz.
| dachryn wrote:
| then switch cables or docking station. It should support
| 240
| samcat116 wrote:
| Apple quotes that the HDMI port in these can do 4k 240hz
| butterlesstoast wrote:
| Depends on the resolution of your external display. I had a
| 144hz 1080p monitor working as expected with a usb-c to
| Display Port connection (It didn't work with an HDMI cable).
| benlower wrote:
| Would really love to be able to run Windows natively on the M2.
| Anyone running Windows as their daily driver on an M2 via
| emulation? How does that experience compare to macOS on the M2?
| eternalban wrote:
| Anyone else having janky experience with the M1s? I have a 2020
| M1 air and have checked for malware. It just acts weird at times.
| camgunz wrote:
| I bought a MBP 14 (max 32, 32GB, 2TB) Dec 2021 and I mostly don't
| regret it (probably should've only gotten 24 GPU cores and gone
| silver). Here are some pros and cons I don't think get enough
| play:
|
| - Turning on "Low Power Mode" when on Battery gives me roughly
| 10h of battery life. Functionally this is more than good enough
| for me.
|
| - Backlight leakage around the keys feels janky
|
| - It's pretty hard to pick it up unless you get it by the back
| vent, also yeah, it's heavy
|
| - The resolution is pretty weird. I wish it were really 4k, then
| bumping it down to FHD with an integer scale would make sense. As
| it is, the integer scale is 1512x982, which many websites think
| (including some you might build!) is a tablet.
|
| - Viewing angles on the screen are not at IPS levels. At regular
| usage distances you can definitely see a difference around the
| outer 1/3 of the screen.
|
| - Dark text on a light background is different than light text on
| a dark background. When I do `set bg=light` in Vim I usually need
| to use a thicker font or turn on antialiasing.
|
| I think most people should get the M2 Air (or the M1 even). I
| have a couple of reasons that going 14 max makes sense for me: I
| moved abroad and my brother and I keep in touch via gaming (a lot
| of Steam games, etc. work pretty well on it), and I'm planning on
| getting back into music. Otherwise, I would argue that:
|
| - the IPS screen on the Air is better for text
|
| - the Air's battery life is another class
|
| - the Air is much lighter
|
| - the Air's resolution is more mainstream and usable
|
| Some Air things are dealbreakers. M1 tops out at 16GB, M2 at 24,
| and they only do 1 external monitor. But w/e.
| orangecat wrote:
| _As it is, the integer scale is 1512x982, which many websites
| think (including some you might build!) is a tablet._
|
| That's odd, I've never noticed that on my 14". Websites usually
| choose layouts according to width and 1512 is well into desktop
| territory.
|
| _the Air 's resolution is more mainstream and usable_
|
| The Air is 2560x1664, and at the default (non-integer, so less
| sharp) scaling it presents as 1470x956 which is also non-
| standard and lower than the MBP.
| machiaweliczny wrote:
| Yep, I am using MBP Air M1 16GB and it's great for typical web
| dev work. I use it with external 4K LG monitor.
| tomaskafka wrote:
| Yes, M1 Air still kills it. I use one for app development, and
| the gains of Pro just aren't worth it. Plus it's superlight and
| fanless, and can easily drive 1440p screen at 165hz, so I don't
| even miss the high fps screen.
| metaltyphoon wrote:
| Not for me. The M1 Pros were on discount for $1499 not too
| long ago. The screen alone vs the air is worth a it, if you
| use a lot for reading.
| nfriedly wrote:
| Another reason the Air is a good choice for most people is that
| it doesn't have a fan. I've cleaned quite a bit of
| dust/lint/etc. out of various laptops. Without a fan, that's
| much less likely to be an issue.
|
| In one recent case, a family member was about to buy an entire
| new laptop because their old one was feeling very sluggish. I
| checked it out and realized that the fan had completely died
| and the system was constantly thermally throttling. A $12
| replacement fan (and a thorough cleaning and CPU repaste)
| allowed them to put off a $1k+ purchase for at least a couple
| more years.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Ha ha, in my experience you are a downer. Sometimes I like to
| find a reason for a new purchase. ;-)
|
| (I suppose having fixed the fan though means I could get a
| little more for it on eBay.)
| skinnymuch wrote:
| How do you know this stuff? My old 2014 MacBook Pro has the
| battery swelling up. I can't afford more than a few hundred
| to fix everything. It's a 2nd comp I use for a remote
| coworking Zoom session all day.
|
| I could have the same problems. I've never cleaned the laptop
| either..heh. I am a programmer so I am not afraid of
| hardware.
| nfriedly wrote:
| First, as raincom mentioned, an expanding battery is a
| major concern. I'd recommend putting it somewhere fireproof
| _immediately_ (such as in a metal trash can, or on a
| concrete pad), and making a plan to have the battery
| removed and properly disposed of in the near future.
|
| Running the battery down to below 30% might also be a good
| idea, but only after it's somewhere fireproof.
|
| Edit: here's some more info: https://www.reddit.com/r/spicy
| pillows/comments/gebotv/faq_wh...
|
| To answer your question, though, I've learned from iFixit
| guides, youtube videos, just taking things apart and
| tinkering with them, etc. Apple uses some oddball screws
| sometimes, but you can get a toolkit with everything you
| need for $30 or less.
|
| I'm more of a software guy, but I mess with hardware
| occasionally. (I'm also willing to pay a professional if I
| feel like it's over my head.)
| raincom wrote:
| Battery swelling = battery replacement. I suggest you
| replace the battery. Don't wait, as swollen batteries can
| explode. Apple will charge $200 to replace, or try a local
| authorized dealer. You can try install the battery yourself
| by ordering from iFixit.
|
| If I were you, I would just get a refurbished M1 MacBook
| Air from Apple, instead of spending $200 on the battery.
| dividedbyzero wrote:
| Another vote in favor of the Air for most people. I have an
| M2 Air with 24gb and a 16" M1 Pro or Max from work with tons
| of RAM and while I'm aware the 16" is vastly superior in a
| lot of ways on paper, in practice I hardly ever notice (or
| actually can't tell). The M2 has been powerful enough for
| everything I've thrown at it and then some; CaptureOne, dev
| work in Scala, fairly large Rust projects in VSCode, the
| occasional VM, 3d modelling, never felt bogged down. 24GB has
| been plenty for me and I've been kinda worried since I had
| more on my previous machine, but even with a bunch of
| containers and a VM here and there plus hundreds of tabs,
| half a dozen VSCode windows, CaptureOne in the background, a
| bunch of electron apps, ... it holds up just fine, with room
| to spare; not sure how that's possible, but I'm pretty sure
| it's managing to fit almost as much into 24gb than a previous
| Intel did into 32gb.
|
| Having no fan is an absolute game changer not just because of
| dust, but this way I can have the machine running near its
| thermal ceiling for extended amounts of time without going
| crazy from the fan noise, very handy when gaming, which I
| wouldn't want to do on the other Macbooks for that reason. I
| had to put a CPU indicator into the menubar because there's
| no way to hear high load anymore, so it's very easy to miss
| that Steam has crashed again and is now keeping all cores
| maxed etc. The silence really nice when using it in a quiet
| space, e.g. for tethered shooting without disturbing people,
| or in the quiet coach of a train, absolutely love it. I'd
| recommend the one with fewer GPU cores since that might give
| you slightly worse graphics, but it'll thermal throttle later
| and less overall when gaming or rendering.
|
| Other differences that aren't as drastic as the specs suggest
| include the display, which other than the difference in real
| estate, I can't say I've ever really noticed to be worse, it
| looks gorgeous despite its significantly lower specs. The 16"
| has very nice sound for a laptop, but the Air sounds way
| better than anything that thin should, it's better than the
| stereo speakers in my Dell monitor, fine for a quick round of
| casual gaming and the like. Connectivity might be a
| dealbreaker (esp. the single external display), but it fits
| what I need well (except for the SD card reader, would love
| to have that). And it's pretty lightweight, very sturdy,
| thin, compact, which is what ultimately made me pick it, much
| more suitable for travelling and having it in a backpack when
| cycling and the like. It'll even run off a tiny 30W power
| bricklet!
| smoldesu wrote:
| Does anyone know "the fastest Intel-based MacBook Pro" means? In
| my mind, I've always pictured them using the 16" i9 model that
| throttled before it could hit the boost clock, let alone sustain
| it.
| LetsGetTechnicl wrote:
| From the footnotes of the article, you're right!
|
| > Results are compared to previous-generation 2.4GHz 8-core
| Intel Core i9-based 16-inch MacBook Pro systems with Radeon Pro
| 5600M graphics with 8GB HBM2, 64GB of RAM, and 8TB SSD.
| maxfurman wrote:
| My guess would also be the 2019 16" Pro, the last one released
| before the M1 wave. That happens to be the one I have now, I'm
| still pretty happy with it! Great battery life, doesn't get
| lava hot unless I have a bunch of plugins going in Ableton or
| something else demanding.
| xdavidliu wrote:
| I had that machine for about 6 months and found the swapping
| between nvidia and integrated graphics to cause such
| unbearable graphical glitches [1] (well from my self-
| diagnosed OCD-influenced perspective, anyway), that I sold it
| on Craigslist for a $500 loss immediately.
|
| [1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/q/411232/79532
| breadzeppelin__ wrote:
| I am currently waiting to take delivery of a 14" M1 MBP. I assume
| the move here is to cancel it and order the newer one?
| gumby wrote:
| Can you wait or do you need a machine immediately. There will
| probably be some lead time before the new machines are
| delivered.
|
| If you have a computer you can still use the move is definitely
| to cancel. Then either buy the new shiny or buy the older
| models (unused or refurb) at a reduced price. These M
| processors are so good that for me, the ones currently shipping
| are perfectly fine.
| eludwig wrote:
| You have 14 days to return it no questions asked. So no worries
| either way.
| jb1991 wrote:
| Or 30 days if you're in Europe.
| masklinn wrote:
| Depends where you live and how long the delay is.
|
| The perf gain should be circa 20%, but in Europe prices got a
| noticeable bump due to the strong USD (relatively).
| evanmoran wrote:
| Yes. A good day for you to hear the announcement :)
| mpeg wrote:
| New Mac mini with the M2 Pro maxes out at 32GB memory, that's
| quite disappointing compared to the Macbook Pro's 96GB.
|
| On the other hand, my M2 Macbook Air is one of the best purchases
| I've made in a long time, great fanless laptop.
| octotoad wrote:
| Seems 96GB is only for the M2 Max model. M2 Pro just mentions
| 32GB.
| lowercased wrote:
| I didn't even notice the mac mini bump. Got mine in aug 2021 -
| more ram would be nice. And with medium drive, that puts it at
| ~ $2k. At that price, I'm more tempted to go back to the laptop
| world.
| dml2135 wrote:
| I really hope the next Macbook Air supports multiple external
| monitors, that's the only thing holding me back from it right
| now. I know there are DisplayLink solutions but not sure how
| well they would work.
| pseufaux wrote:
| It's a bit tricky to make sure you have compatible hardware,
| but my experience of display link has been that it works well
| once set up.
| schoolornot wrote:
| At this point it's a purely a differentiation play in the
| lineup. Most large businesses I know that ordered Airs for
| years just purchase Pros.
| nicoburns wrote:
| Presumably they are trying to make a clear distinction between
| the mini and studio.
| mpeg wrote:
| Yeah, I understand from a product perspective, but the studio
| feels like a bit of a weird product to me, I'd much rather
| either buy a mini form factor for the size, or just get a
| proper desktop machine (since the Mac Pro has been outdated
| for a while)
| japhyr wrote:
| I just got a Studio (still in the box waiting to be set
| up), and I'm really curious to see how it does. I love the
| idea of it; it's specced more than I could get in a laptop,
| which is exactly what I want for my desktop work.
|
| I never really got the appeal of the Mini, because it
| wasn't specced much better than a MacBook. The Studio seems
| to be a nice middle ground between a MacBook and a mac Pro,
| which I know I'll never need.
| 988747 wrote:
| > I never really got the appeal of the Mini, because it
| wasn't specced much better than a MacBook.
|
| The appeal is in the form factor: you buy Mini, so you
| can hang it behind your TV using VESA mount, and you use
| it to watch Netflix on 65" OLED screen. Or you put it in
| the corner of the room and use it as a home server. You
| do not use Mini as laptop replacement :) Although I have
| to say this: Intel NUCs a quarter of the size of Mini, so
| much better for both the purposes above.
| orangecat wrote:
| Possibly, although the M2 Pro mini almost entirely
| cannibalizes the base Studio. For the same $2000 you can get
| the the mini with the same memory and storage, a
| significantly faster CPU (12 core M2 vs 10 core M1) and
| approximately equal GPU (19 core M2 vs 24 core M1). The
| Studio now only makes sense if you need the M1 Ultra or lots
| of memory.
| fossuser wrote:
| The M2 MBA is probably closest to my perfect laptop. Thin, no
| moving parts (no fan), very fast, 24GB RAM, super long battery
| life. I love it.
| mpeg wrote:
| Same for me, I bought it thinking I'd use my desktop more
| anyway so I wanted something very light, fanless and with
| long lasting battery - and I've ended up using it as my daily
| driver since the summer.
|
| It's absolutely flawless, and very good value for the price
| (even with the overpriced RAM)
| adam_arthur wrote:
| Agreed on form factor, but screen is quite a bit worse
| quality wise than the Pro.
|
| Lower refresh rate, lower density backlighting etc. Would
| like the Air form factor with the premium screen
| fossuser wrote:
| Yeah, that's a fair point and probably my only complaint.
| It's probably necessary (for now) to get the rest of the
| hardware to be what it is. Probably a high-res high-refresh
| display would require everything else.
| adam_arthur wrote:
| It may be possible with their upcoming micro-led tech,
| though I'm not familiar with how that impacts form
| factor/power draw
| gorbypark wrote:
| That makes me feel good. I ordered a M2 MacBook Air last week
| knowing that Apple might release new MacBook Pros at any
| time. I have family coming to visit and most Apple products
| are significantly cheaper from where they are vs where I
| live, so I was hesitant about what to do. Looking at the
| prices, I think I made the right choice. A 32GB MacBook Pro
| 14 w/ 1TB would be about $1500 USD more than the MacBook Air
| M2 with 24GB and 1TB, since I'd have to order it from here.
| Obviously the extra ports and RAM would be nice, but not that
| nice!
| sircastor wrote:
| My personal machine is a 2014 13" MBP. I haven't needed to
| replace it, but that time is coming relatively soon. I've
| been contemplating just going with an MBA instead of a MBP
| for my next machine. I don't do so much heavy lifting that I
| think I need it. It's a weird feeling because I think of
| myself as a "power user" and in the past that always meant
| getting the most computer you could afford. Now I'm not so
| sure...
| jotjotzzz wrote:
| Will that mean the M1 MBP 14/16 will get a price decrease? That
| would be great.
| sefke wrote:
| I've noticed that the base model has more cores than the base M1
| one. For the same amount of money!
| henry_viii wrote:
| Do the new models come with the touch bar? There is no mention of
| the keyboard (text or photos).
| doerig wrote:
| No, Apple got rid of the touchbar on all models starting with
| the 2021 MBPs.
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| They really should have called the 2021 MBP-with-Touchbar
| "Macbook SE"
| gamesbrainiac wrote:
| > New MacBook Pro features up to 6x faster performance than
| fastest Intel-based MacBook Pro
|
| This seems like a cheap shot, if I'm being honest.
| jspaetzel wrote:
| Yeah, wasn't the last one of these released in 2021?
| bdlowery wrote:
| From a marketing standpoint there's probably a lot of users
| still using intel based MacBooks, and they're trying to convert
| those existing customers to the Apple Silicon architecture.
| crecker wrote:
| Mac mini seems so cheap in my country compared a brand-new
| Macbook. I wonder if they want to move as soon as possible to
| ecosystem made by only Apple Silicon powered devices.
| birthday wrote:
| My M1 MBP is 30 days old. Somebody please hold me while I cry.
| [deleted]
| s_dev wrote:
| I've been waiting over a year for this. My M1 8GB is simply not
| up to spec for iOS Dev work. Apple Store literally had nothing
| with 16GB when I had to buy it. I asked about when they could get
| one in -- Apple store assistant told me it would be at least 3
| months. This was in Ireland during Covid.
|
| For reference my 2016 MacBook Pro had 16GB RAM so it was
| surprising to me that 6 years later I would be unable to buy one
| with 16 GB of RAM. So while the CPUs are amazing what the hell
| are Apple doing selling machines with such little amounts of RAM?
| randomopining wrote:
| To make money just like you showed. You got the 8gb and now you
| want to pay more to get another one with M2 and 16gb+. Apple
| product segmentation is legendary for extracting the most from
| consumers.
| kzrdude wrote:
| The 8 GB models are all over the secondhand markets and the
| 16 GB ones are hard to find, even that.
| real-dino wrote:
| It's also not enough for VSCode and Web Development. Opening
| VSCode on a medium sized Next.js project takes a good minute or
| so before Intellisense kicks in.
|
| But I'm not willing to pay the prices on the UK website. I
| think an M3 Air with 32GB will be my next purchase.
| mpeg wrote:
| I would strongly recommend the M2 air at 24GB, I too bought one
| of the first M1 airs with 8GB ram and that laptop is just
| gathering dust right now, but the latest ones are great, the
| increase in RAM really lets the processor shine.
| technofiend wrote:
| Would you recommend it over the 32GB 14" M2 MBP? The price
| difference is $500 but for the same amount of storage and
| cores, you get another 8GB of memory, multi-monitor support,
| faster wifi, another tb4 port, etc. Honestly despite their
| newness I was hoping the airs would see a small price drop.
| ant6n wrote:
| Don't they have thermal throttling issues?
| orange_fritter wrote:
| Curious of the battery life of the M2 Pro vs M2 Max. Either
| processor is fast enough for my needs so battery is really
| priority.
| grogenaut wrote:
| What the hay, only 32 gb ram max and 1tb SSD max. I'm over both
| for last 2-3 years on my 2019 Intel with 64/2. The 2tb was
| critical for a project in 2021.
| dabernathy89 wrote:
| where are you seeing 1TB max?
| manv1 wrote:
| The great news? Price drops on the M1 MBP!
| sneak wrote:
| No increase in max configurable storage (8TB). 96GB ram is cool
| but these are targeting A/V production among other things and 8TB
| is not huge in that regard (unlike 12 cpu cores, 96GB ram, etc).
|
| A 12 or 16TB configurable SSD would be nice.
| agloeregrets wrote:
| Fair, though I would want that thunderbolt anyways. I would be
| terrified to be using the internal storage for more than local
| cache of any project.
| sneak wrote:
| File synchronization/backup is a thing. For those of us who
| travel full-time (hence, maxxed out powerful beast laptop)
| having dongly-things dangling off is a hazard.
| sergioisidoro wrote:
| There was just one thing I needed to know - Did they ditch the
| touch bar? Finally, they did!
|
| I have an M1 macbook air because it was the only one without the
| bar. I've been waiting for this for a long time!
| [deleted]
| david_allison wrote:
| The 13 inch models have a touch bar. The 14/16 inch don't.
| BozeWolf wrote:
| The previous m1 pro's do not have a touch bar either. Go get
| the m2, the m1 is already great... highly recommend!
| burntalmonds wrote:
| I'm an Air convert after years of using 15" macbook pros. Small,
| light, amazing battery life. Feels just as fast on all 'normal'
| tasks. If I'm doing some work that needs a lot of power, even a
| maxed Pro wouldn't be enough.
| yesimahuman wrote:
| Agreed. Now they just need to ship a 15" MBA. It would be the
| perfect laptop and more than capable for most people and devs.
| I have the 13" M2 Air and I've realized the screen is just too
| small for me. Maybe we'll see it this spring?
| jchw wrote:
| It's worrying that they are shying away from specifying
| generational improvements or at least comparing to it's
| competitors. The "fastest Intel MacBook" is not really the
| competitor for an M2 MacBook Pro, it's a predecessor. But I'd
| rather hear about generational improvements from M1, especially
| because both Intel and AMD seem to be making great strides in the
| low power space lately.
| JoshTko wrote:
| If Apple's main target customers are Intel macbook owners using
| these stats would make sense.
| nvrspyx wrote:
| They could include both the improvement from the last Intel
| model and the previous Apple Silicon model, no?
|
| EDIT: I see they actually do just that for some specific
| applications.
| JoshTko wrote:
| Less is more. I'm guessing the % of M2 customers that are
| upgrading from an M1 is less than 10%. If ~75% (my guess)
| of target customers for M2 are Intel mac owners, Apple
| should focus on them first. They can then do more targeted
| ads w/ relevant stats to win each subgroup in the remaining
| 25%
| ricardobayes wrote:
| That's a tough cookie, some can't switch due to software
| constraints (e.g. CAD engineers using solidworks etc)
| nawgz wrote:
| As an M1 owner, it's the opposite of a worry for my wallet :)
| ribit wrote:
| They did say 20% faster CPU and 30% faster GPU than M1 series
| in the same thermal envelope.
|
| Intel doesn't really seem to make any strides in low-power
| designs, they just throw more mid-power cores at the problem to
| achieve better multi core efficiency as well as manipulate
| power brackets. Shirt-time (benchmark-relevant) consumption of
| Intel chips is insane and their published TDP figures are
| utterly meaningless. AMD has very scalable cores and Zen4
| performs admirably at low power, but AMD too falls victim to
| power inflation to keep pace with Intel.
| zamalek wrote:
| > fastest Intel MacBook
|
| It's also 4 years old at this point. Where is the comparison to
| current-gen Intel/AMD?
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Edit: I no-longer hold this opinion as I missed that there's
| already been an M1 MacBook Pro and it should be comparing to
| that.
|
| For as long as I can remember, Apple has compared new products
| to the previous product. And it is a more sensible approach
| than picking some arbitrary competitor from a huge collection
| of possible options, because it gives a fixed frame of
| reference, one of which many of the target audience are aware
| of. 6x faster than the previous model is very good marketing.
| nsriv wrote:
| It's not the previous model though, it's 2 generations prior.
| Commenter is asking for a comparison to the M1 MacBook Pro.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Oh right. Yeah, that should 100% be the comparison
| provided. I missed that there's already been an M1 MacBook
| Pro.
|
| Yep, my opinion on the matter has changed to the GP
| comment's.
| [deleted]
| singhrac wrote:
| Honestly, I think this is also partly them patting themselves
| (or their silicon team) on the back for a job well done. And as
| everyone else has said, their competitor is the fastest
| Intel/AMD chips if they're trying to win market share.
| [deleted]
| gwbas1c wrote:
| I didn't buy an M1 because I didn't want the "first" Apple
| processor. Maybe it's just my bias from seeing lots of Intel
| competitors come-and-go? I don't really care about specific
| improvements, I just want all the minor things that the
| engineers didn't get to finish the first time around.
|
| In my case, living in the US, we all do our taxes in the first
| three-ish months of the year. Last year Turbo Tax told me they
| wouldn't support my 2013 MBP this tax season, so I decided to
| wait until fall 2022 and get whatever Apple released. Fall 2022
| came without a release, so I've been biting my nails: Turbo Tax
| won't run on my MBP, and I don't want to upgrade to an
| "outdated" M1.
|
| (As you can infer, I'm planning on using my next MBP for ~10
| years.)
| mikedelago wrote:
| I know it's already purchased so not a big deal, but if
| anyone is in a similar situation, there are other free and/or
| well-featured tax processing tools.
|
| I use FreeTaxUsa, which is entirely online and free for your
| federal return. I think it may be $15 or so for state
| returns, but I live in Florida so it's not really something I
| think about.
| TingPing wrote:
| To state the obvious, Turbo Taxes website works on any
| device. No idea what an app would be needed for.
| 988747 wrote:
| It's crazy that you basically cannot do your taxes in the
| US without purchasing commercial app...
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Anyone can do federal taxes via free file fillable forms
| on the IRS website, and it is super easy.
|
| https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-
| taxes-f...
|
| Any half decent state also offers free online tax
| returns. If all you are is an employee with stocks/bonds
| in a brokerage that gives you the necessary forms, it is
| super easy.
| johncalvinyoung wrote:
| Oh you can. It's just a lot more work. You can do it with
| paper forms, a calculator, checks, and stamps, pretty
| much.
|
| You just are unlikely to know/find the rules for optimal
| results, and the process will take a lot longer.
|
| Not a fan of turbotax, but it's not _necessary_.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I have been doing federal taxes online for 10 or more
| years, using irs free file fillable forms:
|
| https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-
| taxes-f...
|
| It does some calculations itself, and some you have to do
| yourself, but it is very easy to use and file online, and
| get a pdf return to save for yourself.
|
| Any half decent state also has had free online tax return
| filing for some time now.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| You _can_ , but it's incredibly painful. Yes, it is
| crazy.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Not painful in my experience. Try the free file fillable
| forms on IRS website this year:
|
| https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-
| taxes-f...
| nicoburns wrote:
| It's no secret that Apple's M2 series processors are a pretty
| minor improvement over the M1 series. Expect much bigger
| improvements in the M3 series which will likely be using TSMC's
| 3nm process (and then probably only minor improvements again
| for the M4 series).
|
| It seems that Apple's ridiculously impressive consistent year-
| on-year gains up the M1 were in large part possible because
| they were behind the state of the art. Now that they've caught
| up with Intel and AMD we should probably expect the same slower
| more gradual improvements from Apple that we see from the other
| companies.
| guax wrote:
| 20% improvement is substantial even if not worth an upgrade.
| Add the same for next iteration and it the gap gets sizeable
| and harder to resist. I'm actually reliefer i can keep my
| less than a month old 16 inch since it was 700 euro cheaper
| than a new M2 pro and not worth returning for 20% improvement
| r00fus wrote:
| > It seems that Apple's ridiculously impressive consistent
| year-on-year gains up the M1 were in large part possible
| because they were behind the state of the art.
|
| I was nodding along about M2 being a minor bump over M1, but
| I'm not even sure what you mean here. Apple previously used
| Intel processors - how is Intel not caught up with Intel?
|
| Apple was key to many many computing technology adoption -
| USB, Thunderbolt, even early WiFi. Now that they're making
| their own desktop processors and entire SoC, I think they can
| move in ways that are not constrained by Intel or other
| players. It's possible we see the laptop market move more
| like the smartphone market.
| sod wrote:
| Yes, the year over year improvements were 90% just the tsmc
| node changes. But the ridiculous (and IMO amazing)
| performance per watt is a mix of iOS/macOS and their chip
| design. Those efficiency cores are unmatched, paired with the
| right scheduling from the OS.
|
| The M2 is underwhelming as its the same 5nm as the M1 was.
|
| But rumors say the M2 pro and max are on the 3nm node. And it
| took so long for the release, as 3nm was delayed.
|
| Apple has a monopoly right now on 3nm, which is a shame. But
| if we only got tsmc to fire on all cylinders because apple
| stuffed them with money, then so be it.
| [deleted]
| smoldesu wrote:
| It's worth noting that TSMC is looking to exploit Apple's
| demand for the hottest silicon. The latest reports suggest
| that they'll cut the prices to lure in others, so Apple
| will be forced to ante-up or stay on an old process:
| https://www.techspot.com/news/97269-tsmc-may-cut-3nm-
| wafer-p...
|
| It's fascinating to think about. If the Mac is currently a
| low-margin product, Apple might be forced to stay on one
| node until the better silicon becomes cheap enough to use
| in production. If Apple doesn't play their cards right,
| TSMC could shanghai Apple in the exact same way Intel got
| stranded in the sea of process enhancement.
| johncalvinyoung wrote:
| According to Apple's press release^1, at least the M2 Pro
| is fabbed on a 'second generation 5nm' process. Since the
| power/cores/performance claims seem to be sub-linear going
| to the M2 Max, I'd expect it continues to share the same
| node.
|
| [1]: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/01/apple-
| unveils-m2-pro-...
| rowanG077 wrote:
| I'm not so sure that's true. Linux seems to handle these
| SoCs fine as well. The secret sauce in that regard seem
| much more in the very large amount of co-processors rather
| then the OS itself.
| cassianoleal wrote:
| > But the ridiculous (and IMO amazing) performance per watt
| is a mix of iOS/macOS and their chip design.
|
| Not disputing this, but even Asahi Linux without GPU
| acceleration has pretty much whole-day battery life on an
| M1 Air. I'm not sure how well their kernel manages
| scheduling on the different cores but I suspect the vast
| majority of the perf/Watt is on the actual hardware.
| Uehreka wrote:
| In the beginning I thought the "performance per watt" thing
| was just folks who want Apple to be better clinging to a
| stat that made it look like that was the case. But in late
| 2021 I was long overdue for an upgrade, so I got an M1 Max
| MacBook Pro and holy hell, now I get it.
|
| The battery lasts stupid long. Like, the fact that I can
| bring this thing on a plane or train without worrying if
| they'll have working electric sockets is huge. The fact I
| can stash this thing under a desk with no power available
| and have it run graphics-intensive projections for a 3-hour
| theatre show is huge. The fact that I can achieve all that
| with zero throttling (I turned on High Energy use and never
| turned it off) is huge. The fact that I can achieve all of
| that with basically no fan noise is nonsensical.
|
| Like, compared to the 2020 Razer Blade (RTX 2070 Max-Q) I
| use for work, it's like a completely different class of
| device. My Razer Blade spins up like a jet engine under
| load, requires a cable if I'm going to do anything intense
| for an hour, underclocks from ~4.4GHz to ~1.5-2.5GHz when
| on battery (seemingly no way to disable this), and really
| only beats my MacBook for tasks that specifically require
| an Nvidia GPU.
| mdasen wrote:
| Yea, I upgraded to an M1 Pro and it's truly amazing. I
| used to always look at benchmarks and always want to
| upgrade to the newest thing that was coming out. Now I
| have a laptop that feels like it just works. It doesn't
| get hot, I've never heard the fan, and just so many of
| the typical worries/concerns just aren't there for me
| anymore.
|
| Yesterday, there was an article about Intel showing off a
| "35 watt" chip that was benchmarking better than last
| year's 125 watt chip. Except, you go into the comments
| and people note that it'll draw 107 watts for short
| periods of time - probably just long enough to get good
| benchmark scores.
|
| The magic of the M-series processors is that they have
| really great sustainable performance and without needing
| to draw power and create heat like Intel's. The Razor
| Blade machines are amazing in how they deal with the
| amount of heat generated with their liquid cooling and
| everything (it's quite a design), but as you note it's
| still a jet-engine sounding machine that requires being
| tethered to power.
|
| One of the big things that Apple showed off when
| introducing the M1 Pro/Max was the idea that you could be
| a creator doing your job and no longer feel like you were
| tied to a power outlet. Photoshop from a park or edit
| video wherever you are: you really don't need more power
| than you'll always have with you.
|
| As I said, I bought the M1 Pro and specifically upgraded
| to the 8 performance core version of it. I'd always
| bought the high-watt Intel processors for my MacBook, not
| the paltry 15W Intel parts. I had a 2020 MacBook Pro with
| 2.3GHz Core i7 (28W, 10nm) and I'd regularly have it get
| really hot, the fan often wasn't too loud but it was
| always a constant drone, and things felt slow.
|
| My next machine is going to be a MacBook Air. I feel like
| I'm using nothing on this machine. I have 8 performance
| cores and 2 efficiency cores, but it just feels like
| there's no point to having that much CPU. It's a really
| crazy feeling for me. Yes, more performance will be
| useful for some people, especially people who do video
| editing, graphics, etc. But damn does all my work never
| even come close to stressing this thing - something I'd
| regularly have a problem with on Intel's greatest drawing
| a lot more power and making a lot more heat just a year
| before. Intel has made some strides since then and I'm
| happy that their newer processors are doing well, but for
| the first time in my life it just feels like I don't
| care.
|
| I might grab a 3nm laptop from Apple when those come out,
| but I'm not anxiously awaiting them. I might just wait
| for whatever comes after TSMC's 3nm process. I am kinda
| excited that I can go to a MacBook Air.
| ako wrote:
| Stories like yours made me upgrade my home computer to an
| iPad Air 2022. It's basically an M1 laptop with a touch
| screen, and when you pair it with a Bluetooth keyboard
| and mouse, and attach it to an external display, it feels
| like a full pc.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > it feels like a full pc
|
| The hardware is basically equivalent, but unfortunately
| that's far from the case with the software. It's
| definitely useable as a home computer if you mainly
| browse the web or use office apps. But there's a lot of
| software that just isn't supported on the ipad. It would
| be pretty useless for me as a software developer.
| ako wrote:
| Correct, it's not a good tool for programmers, but many
| other jobs it's a great tool: photo organization and
| editing, video editing, note taking, learning and playing
| music (connected to a guitar), writing and dictating
| texts (Dropbox paper), creating texts and presentations
| (ms office or pages/keynote), reading news (browser,
| Flipboard, get pocket), watching videos/Netflix/prime,
| controlling music on the HomePod mini, banking, home
| control (control thermostat). The only reason I still
| have a laptop is software development.
| johnwalkr wrote:
| I use the slightly older 14" macbook at work and since
| I'm always in different meeting rooms, and only at my
| desk for half the day I charge it like I charge my phone.
| If I notice it's low, I charge it when I go for lunch or
| whatever.
| cbsmith wrote:
| I'm not sure I'd attribute that much to the CPU design
| though. On a typical laptop, CPU power consumption is
| <20% of the picture.
| Uehreka wrote:
| Well in that case: whether it's the CPU, or the way
| CPU/GPU/RAM are tightly coupled on the SoC, or the 4Kish
| MiniLED screen (which never seems to be dim), or some
| sort magic glue between the battery cells... Apple is
| doing something spectacular, and other manufacturers need
| to figure out how to do it too.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Most signs point to it being hardware-related. Without
| any Mac-specific optimization, the Asahi folks got fairly
| long runtimes out of the CPU (which makes sense, ARM has
| low idle draws).
|
| Frankly though, I don't want most manufacturers to make
| ARM machines. While Apple is allowed to monopolize the
| latest TSMC silicon, it's completely pointless trying to
| compete with them. May as well focus on delivering a
| great x86 experience with AMD and switching to something
| more open like RISC-V when the time comes.
| s3p wrote:
| Apple was never competing in the same space as Intel and AMD.
| From the beginning, Apple made ARM-based RISC chips. Intel
| and AMD used their own x86-64 architecture. Apple's was great
| for iPhones because of power efficiency. They were able to
| improve their chip designs so much that they smoked the
| competition away with the release of their first fusion chip
| (iPhone 7 I believe) and have been miles ahead of everyone
| else since.
|
| They then scaled up performance so much that a desktop ARM
| chip was made. That had _never_ been done on a large scale
| before. So, no, imo Apple was never behind Intel and AMD,
| they were never competing in the same space.
| Tepix wrote:
| You seem to have a short memory. In the beginning, the
| Apple I had a 6502. The Macintosh ran on a Motorola 68000.
| Power Macintoshes used PowerPC chips. Then came Intel Macs,
| they started with 32bit CPUs, then 64bit Intel chips. And
| finally, we got ARM Macs from Apple.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| Apple's M1 chips already offered improvements compared to
| their previous generation Intel chips, and Intel hasn't
| exactly been innovating in the last 2 years. By all accounts,
| they have been ahead of Intel, at the very least.
|
| I'm not exactly sure how Apple was "behind the state of the
| art" and has caught up. Can you explain?
| nicoburns wrote:
| > I'm not exactly sure how Apple was "behind the state of
| the art" and has caught up. Can you explain?
|
| The M1 was when they caught up. They were behind the state
| of the art (of laptop/desktop chip performance) with their
| A series chips starting with the A4. They gradually caught
| up over the course of several years to the point that when
| they released the M1 chip (which was really not that
| different to the A15) they were slightly ahead.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| Yeah, as the other person says, it's weird to combine
| A-level chips which were mobile only (minus that short
| stint where they put it in a Mac Mini before the M1 was
| ready) with the M-level chips.
|
| Sure, they're all "Apple Silicon" but the chips should be
| compared to their equivalents, M-level with Intel/AMD and
| A-level with Snapdragon/Exonys. We don't really compare
| Snapdragon to Core any other time, as they both optimize
| for vastly different things.
|
| I would also argue that Apple is continuing to make big
| boosts in their A-level chips compared to their mobile
| counterparts.
| nicoburns wrote:
| I thought the M-level and A-level chips are pretty much
| identical CPU cores (just different numbers of them). As
| such it seems reasonable to me to compare single-threaded
| performance between A-level and Intel/AMD (making
| allowances for power envelopes). And indeed one could
| compare Snapdragon, except they're quite far behind.
| [deleted]
| objclxt wrote:
| > They were behind the state of the art (of
| laptop/desktop chip performance) with their A series
| chips starting with the A4
|
| ...but A series chips were never intended for laptops or
| desktops? And by all accounts, the A series nearly always
| out-competed comparable QC Snapdragon chips.
| nicoburns wrote:
| They weren't... but evidence is that that's only because
| they didn't have competitive performance for those
| applications. Once the performance caught up they did
| choose to put them in laptops and desktops.
| qwytw wrote:
| I think A chips were quite considerably ahead of low-
| power Intel chips (e.g. the i7 in MBA) several years
| before M1 was released. But I guess they didn't believe
| they could scale it up to compete with higher power
| i7/i9s shipped in pro macbooks.
| nicoburns wrote:
| I suspect it just took them several years to do it. It's
| no small task!
| cma wrote:
| A chips had more relaxed memory ordering that couldn't
| work well for emulating x64. M chips can toggle the
| memory ordering guarantees.
| nicoburns wrote:
| I mean that's true. But that doesn't prevent comparing
| performance of natively compiled ARM binaries in A chips
| vs natively compiled x64 binaries on x64 chips.
| coder543 wrote:
| > Intel hasn't exactly been innovating in the last 2 years.
|
| What on earth are you talking about?! Alder Lake was a
| _huge_ step up for Intel, and Raptor Lake has improved
| things more than I would have expected as well. Before
| Alder Lake, Intel 's CPUs honestly sucked. AMD still seems
| to have a modest competitive advantage in terms of
| efficiency and battery life (making AMD not that far off
| from where Apple is in hours of practical battery life when
| doing something _other than_ looking at a static screenshot
| for hours on end), but Intel makes up for that with
| performance, and as I recall, Alder Lake is still more
| efficient than what Intel had before in laptops.
|
| Sapphire Rapids is also a _huge_ innovation compared to
| what Intel had been doing for years in the server market.
| Intel has also been introducing some really interesting GPU
| products now to bring competition to AMD and Nvidia, but it
| will probably take another generation or two to iron things
| out. If none of that is "innovation", then I don't know
| what is!
|
| The last 2 years are the first time Intel has really been
| innovating in the past 5+ years!
|
| When M1 came out, it was awesome. Since then, Intel and AMD
| have released processors that are _significantly_ more
| competitive, while M2 was a mediocre step forward. I
| appreciate my M2 MBA, but Apple Silicon needs a huge
| upgrade with M3 to remain competitive.
|
| For a lot of legitimate use cases, there are at least half
| a dozen Windows laptops coming out right now that I would
| _instantly_ pick over a MacBook, and the same _would not_
| have been said 2 years ago.
| jyrkesh wrote:
| > For a lot of legitimate use cases, there are at least
| half a dozen Windows laptops coming out right now that I
| would instantly pick over a MacBook, and the same would
| not have been said 2 years ago.
|
| Would you mind listing a couple? I'd prefer to buy a
| Windows machine for my next laptop, but I've been SO
| burned by hibernation bugs, CPU throttling, battery
| issues, etc. And I've had an OG 13" M1 MBP from work for
| the past year or so, and the performance and battery life
| have been unreal to that point that I'm very much
| considering one of these 14" M2 MBPs for myself.
| cbsmith wrote:
| > Would you mind listing a couple? I'd prefer to buy a
| Windows machine for my next laptop, but I've been SO
| burned by hibernation bugs, CPU throttling, battery
| issues, etc.
|
| Those have a huge tie in with the software, so I wouldn't
| expect hardware innovation to help.
| coder543 wrote:
| CPU throttling and battery issues aren't _necessarily_
| related to software at all, but "battery issues" is very
| nebulous, and I expect (problematic) CPU throttling to be
| less of an issue with the more efficient chips and
| cooling solutions that we have now.
|
| I didn't bother addressing those points because it's hard
| to know where things were going wrong without a lot more
| detail.
|
| Sleep issues are definitely a hallmark of Windows Modern
| Standby, but one might hope that will be addressed soon.
| Supposedly Microsoft is looking into it now.
| coder543 wrote:
| For me, there are basically two "categories" of new
| Windows laptops that I'm excited about: innovative form
| factors, and compact laptops with RTX 40-series GPUs. As
| much as Nvidia has been charging ridiculous prices for
| desktop GPUs, it looks like laptops using their GPUs
| aren't going to cost crazy amounts this year, and DLSS 3
| Frame Generation should be a _huge_ benefit for laptop
| gaming.
|
| In terms of innovative form factors, look at these:
|
| - A laptop with a nice OLED screen and a Color E-ink
| screen. This seems like an incredible combination,
| although the 60Hz limit on the OLED screen is
| unfortunate:
| https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/5/23541379/lenovo-
| thinkbook-...
|
| - This dual screen (dual OLED, even!) concept seems like
| it would be challenging to pull off, but every hands-on
| review I've seen was really impressed with it, and I can
| totally see use cases for this:
| https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/5/23518872/lenovo-yoga-
| book-...
|
| - The Flow Z13 is like a Microsoft Surface with an actual
| GPU and a 165Hz display. This one isn't as appealing to
| me as the two above, but it is neat:
| https://rog.asus.com/laptops/rog-flow/rog-
| flow-z13-2023-seri...
|
| In terms of the other category,
|
| - The Acer Swift X 14 comes with a nice 120Hz OLED screen
| and an RTX 4050, so it seems like a nice, balanced
| laptop, but I wish it had the option for more than 16GB
| of RAM: https://youtu.be/va3OmoYHKYs?t=298
|
| - The Flow X13 now comes with up to an RTX 4070 and 165Hz
| display and up to 32GB of RAM, and this is significantly
| more compact than the Swift X 14, but the display is not
| as nice as an OLED. This is also a convertible, so you
| can use the 360 degree hinge to make it into a tablet:
| https://rog.asus.com/laptops/rog-flow/rog-
| flow-x13-2023-seri...
|
| - The new Zephyrus G14 is probably the one I find most
| exciting, offering a 165Hz MiniLED display that's almost
| as nice as OLED, as well as up to an RTX 4090 (Laptop)
| and 32GB of RAM, but it is about the same size as the
| Swift X 14, so not as small as the Flow X13:
| https://www.techradar.com/reviews/asus-rog-
| zephyrus-g14-2023
|
| A number of these also have user-upgradeable RAM, SSD, or
| both. I really like OLED, so it's great to see so many
| options for that, and MiniLED is going to be
| significantly more common this year than it was last
| year. It would be nice if my M2 MBA offered OLED or
| MiniLED.
| klelatti wrote:
| You're right in that TSMC / Samsung were for many years
| behind the state of the art, and by extension so was the
| technology that Apple was using. Apple's CPUs defined the
| state of the art for mobile though.
|
| And now of course TSMC / Apple haven't caught up, they have
| surpassed comparable offerings from Intel.
| gumby wrote:
| > Now that they've caught up with Intel and AMD...
|
| I'm an enormous fan of the M series. But there is an
| interesting consequence of a couple of fundamental design
| decisions.
|
| The M series has huge memory bandwidth but look at its focus
| on I/O. It reminds me of one of the design decisions of the
| Alto (memory bus was 3/2 the screen refresh rate, a mind-
| boggling decision for its time). The fact that the M1 can go
| in an ipad is insane, but is enabled by the way the M series
| was designed. Their design for long battery life while
| drawing onto directly connected displays is unmatched.
|
| However I believe that same decision has hobbled the M1 in a
| way that may make a Mac Pro version "impossible" (i.e. too
| much change to be worth doing). M series are optimized to
| dash rapidly then quickly go to sleep.
|
| I feel the Intel and AMD guys are still thinking of sustained
| performance, a holdover from the desktop world and its
| mainframe, or at least minicomputer roots. Psychologically
| their mobile chips look to me like scaled down desktop
| machines.
|
| If my belief is right, AMD and Intel aren't really catching
| up on mobile, while Apple will probably never produce a Mac
| Pro worth buying (for me they never were, but I'm sure there
| are people for which they were a great deal).
| hajile wrote:
| Apple's CPUs do _very_ well in sustained performance. They
| fit 8 high-performance CPUs and 2 efficiency cores into a
| 40w peak power envelope while hitting peak clockspeeds
| (that 40w includes all the IO, mostly idling GPU, idling
| NPU, SSD controller, etc). Based on M2, their new chip
| should be 3.4-3.5GHz with 4 efficiency cores that get
| 30-40% better IPC all within that same power envelope.
|
| AMD puts 96 cores into a 360w TDP (not counting spikes that
| go higher than that) at 3.6GHz. Apple could most likely fit
| 72 high-performance cores and 36 more efficiency cores into
| that same 360w TDP.
|
| Given that AMD's chips require much higher clockspeeds to
| hit the same total performance (nearly 5GHz for Zen 3 to
| match a 3.2GHz M1), the final product from AMD would likely
| be quite a bit slower overall.
|
| I believe the real reason for the Mac Pro not hitting the
| market is their insistence on unified memory. At that size,
| unified memory and controlling latencies explodes in
| complexity.
|
| Even worse, the Mac Studio already appeals to most of the
| higher-end market meaning this $20-50k system probably
| doesn't have very many buyers either. They could sell such
| a product in the server market, but they left that market
| years ago and the reinvestment costs would be massive and
| very high-risk.
| qwytw wrote:
| Yes but people buying current gen Mac Pros probably value
| upgradability and want/need discrete GPUs. Just try to
| imagine how much would Apple charge for 256GB based on
| M1/M2 pricing.
| florakel wrote:
| " MacBook Pro with M2 Pro features a 10- or 12-core CPU with up
| to eight high-performance and four high-efficiency cores for up
| to 20 percent greater performance over M1 Pro."
| ribit wrote:
| Performance will be comparable to top Zen4 mobile CPUs at 45W
| TDP, just that Apple will use 50-60% less power in single-core
| and 20-30% power in multi core. That's about it.
| rsynnott wrote:
| They do give some numbers vs M1s, but most people actually
| considering buying this will be coming from the Intel ones (no-
| one replaces their laptop every year) so it makes sense to
| labour those in the marketing material.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Traditionally Apple's marketing compared against the previous
| generation, not multiple generations old hardware.
|
| It seems tacky to me because the M2's competition isn't
| really 2019 Intel MBPs- it's laptops using modern Intel/AMD
| CPUs (the M2 may still be better than those, but if that's
| the case those are the benchmarks they should be giving us)
| guax wrote:
| They did. 20% improvement in cpu and 30% ish in GPU.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Vs Raptor Lake or Ryzen?
| hk1337 wrote:
| How is development setup on the M2? Specifically Docker and
| Python. Docker VM has always seemed rather meh on my M1 and
| installing different python versions with pyenv either goes well
| or has _a lot_ of workarounds.
| smoldesu wrote:
| That's OS-specific, and doesn't really have much to do with the
| chip. Managing Python will be frustrating on _every_ OS, but
| running Docker software will always be uniquely slow on MacOS.
| If you want native Docker performance, you need a kernel with
| native Linux support.
| hk1337 wrote:
| Fair point.
| dugab wrote:
| I have no issues working with Docker/Python on a M1 Macbooks.
| Docker Desktop/Colima does the job well, and most of the images
| I use are available on arm. Running amd64 images is slower, but
| works well.
|
| For Python, Python itself is rarely the problem, but more often
| some older libraries that don't have wheels for M1 Mac, or
| incompatibilities. Upgrading your dependencies, if it's an
| option, is often enough.
|
| Asdf + PDM are also nice tools to work with multiple
| projects/Py versions easily.
| hk1337 wrote:
| > Asdf + PDM are also nice tools to work with multiple
| projects/Py versions easily.
|
| I haven't heard of either of these but they seem interesting.
| I'll look into them. Thanks.
|
| *EDIT* Oh, man! I've just been using just pip like a muggle,
| until now.
| kdrag0n wrote:
| Shameless plug on this topic: I've been working on a new
| Linux+Docker+Kubernetes solution for macOS recently! Already
| has quite a few improvements over existing apps including
| Docker Desktop, Rancher, Colima, etc: fast networking (30
| Gbps), VirtioFS and _bidirectional_ filesystem sharing, Rosetta
| for fast x86, full Linux (not only Docker), lower CPU usage,
| and other tweaks.
|
| More details here to avoid spamming this thread:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34374176
| coding123 wrote:
| I was a holdout for a while, but try Podman. I finally upgraded
| my Intel Mac and it went pretty smoothly. The only thing I
| recommend to people is ignore the "alias docker=podman" crap
| you see everywhere. The only true way to make things work well
| is make a docker symlink (on your path somewhere) to podman. If
| you do the alias thing you'll quickly discover bash scripts
| "can't find docker" and you'll end up doing a lot of chopt crap
| that doesn't work.
|
| That all being said I don't have an M1 (or an M2 for that
| matter) so I don't know if Podman works "well" on it.
| KAdot wrote:
| macOS 13 Ventura introduced[1] support of running amd64
| binaries with Rosetta inside of arm64 Linux VMs when using
| Apple Virtualization framework.
|
| Latest Docker Desktop and Lima VM can take advantage on the new
| feature. It makes running amd64 containers significantly
| faster.
|
| Here is a very short manual how to setup Docker with Lima VM
| and Rosetta
| https://gist.github.com/akrylysov/7c1ea3bac409da2758e525f2f8...
|
| [1]:
| https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/run...
| tpmx wrote:
| Docker Desktop on Intel Mac (the "supported" config) is not
| super stable as is. I'm going to wait for official Docker
| support until upgrading to an M2 (or M3?) Mac.
|
| Seriously thinking about getting a fast AMD Linux box to run
| Docker workloads network-locally, I'm working from home 99.9%
| of the time anyway.
| gizmo wrote:
| x64 virtual machines on M2 are almost unusably bad for me.
| Everything else is (near) perfect. Apparently it's somewhat
| better on Ventura, but I don't want to take the risk of
| upgrading.
| crossroadsguy wrote:
| And the laptop comes with a one year warranty. Extending the
| warranty means pretty much another laptop's price from other
| OEMs. RAM still 8GB in many base models (not sure if that's so in
| all the lines) and then there's this thing how easy to repair
| these are. I wish my laptop buying strategy was like everybody
| else's -- Shiny new toy, just get it! :)
| foxandmouse wrote:
| An extended warranty is 300cad for 3 years and 100/year after
| that. I think that is more than reasonable for the best
| product-service available. I would be a lot less comfortable
| using such an expensive device if the service wasn't so
| comprehensive.
|
| AppleCare is one of my favourite "features" that comes with
| every apple product.
| mittermayr wrote:
| There's also a new Mac Mini, which I found A LOT MORE
| interesting, given that its keyboard or batteries won't break:
|
| https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/01/apple-introduces-new-...
| ricardobayes wrote:
| I hear you, but in Europe it's around 700EUR, which also buys a
| pretty solid windows or linux laptop. If you're not locked in
| to mac, a comparably priced laptop with intel 12 gen CPU, 16GB
| RAM and a RTX 3050, which is arguably a lot more versatile
| machine. I think I would like Mac's more if they weren't so
| absurdly overpriced (approx. 25%+ over US prices) here in
| Europe.
| pcardoso wrote:
| The price difference between the US/Europe is mostly due to
| taxes. US prices don't have taxes included, European prices
| do.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| Here in Austria we have 20% VAT, and US prices are typically
| without tax. So the 25% price difference is really just a 5%
| price difference, which is still shitty, but not as
| horrendous as you make it seem.
|
| Also, the Mac mini is very special:
|
| - tiny footprint without external power brick
|
| - very high reliability
|
| - completely inaudible for typical developer usage
|
| - extremely low power usage (the 6 core Intel Mac mini was an
| exception)
|
| It's the perfect home (or office) server. You can put it into
| a bookshelf or in a cabinet, it won't run hot, it won't
| disturb you with noise in the living room.... I just don't
| know of anything else that fits the bill.
|
| The only shitty thing is that they are charging ridiculous
| prices for storage, and attaching external storage sucks
| because it ruins the tiny form factor, and also because the
| USB-C cables that come with SSD drives tend to easily
| disconnect in my experience.
| acchow wrote:
| Except the mac will be faster and feel much snappier every
| day
| adrien2217 wrote:
| In France the Mac mini starts at 581 euros before tax. That's
| $627, which is about 5% higher than the US price.
| manchmalscott wrote:
| Apple silicon macbooks have one property that no windows or
| linux laptop will ever be able to give me. I use my MacBook
| to take notes in class, work on my CS homework, etc, so I
| spent most of my time in Firefox or VS Code. I charge my
| laptop once a _week_.
| [deleted]
| judge2020 wrote:
| The lack of dedicated DisplayPort ports is fairly disappointing
| to me since their implementation is just "native DisplayPort
| output over USB-C" and it doesn't support MST, so you can only
| do one displayport signal per port, even with a thunderbolt 4
| hub with some bidirectional USB-C <-> Displayport cables.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| USB4 supports DP 1.4a tunneling and DP 2.0 in DP "alternate
| mode". Agree with you, but I fear dedicated DP ports are
| dying.
| judge2020 wrote:
| I guess my main point is that, if we're going to move to
| displayport over USB-C, we (A) need Apple to put out
| official $100 cables, since I tried some cheap Amazon
| cables that didn't work and had to purchase some $60 moshi
| cables that I knew would work[0], and (B) they need a
| minimum of 5 ports since being limited to 1 peripheral
| port+3 monitors (2 over DP, one HDMI) on the mini is
| terrible. I know they want your mouse and keyboard to be
| bluetooth but no thank you.
|
| 0: https://us.moshi.com/products/usb-c-to-displayport-
| cable?var...
| fifteenforty wrote:
| I've had very good luck with the CableMatters USB-C to
| DisplayPort cables! I've used a couple of them
| continuously for the last 3 years.
| npigrounet wrote:
| [dead]
| kmeisthax wrote:
| MST wouldn't be supported even if it had a DisplayPort
| output. Apple explicitly did not support MST pre-M1 as well.
| acchow wrote:
| But it worked if you installed Windows instead. So the
| hardware supports MST
| ccouzens wrote:
| The Intel hardware supported MST. It's unclear about
| their ARM hardware (and the suspicion is not supported
| from people who've looked into it).
| andrewia wrote:
| Yes, although that's a MacOS restriction, and MST is
| already used in MacOS to carry multiple streams to a single
| high-resolution monitor. And as Asahi Linux keeps getting
| more usable, I hope it can be a viable alternative, so
| Apple's hardware can be used without MacOS's arbitrary
| restrictions.
| comboy wrote:
| Check out DisplayLink. I'm using multiple monitors with M1
| macbook air which officially only supports single external
| display. Works great so far.
|
| I agree with your point though.
| ccouzens wrote:
| That wouldn't work with my desk and screen setup that uses
| MST. I use devices that do support MST but not displaylink
| like my Steam deck, or out the box Linux installs.
| emacdona wrote:
| DisplayLink is a daily source of frustration for me. If I
| disconnect my DisplayLink hub, and then plug it back in...
| I have to open and close my 13" M1 MacBook Pro a few times;
| restart the DisplayLink software; and sometimes reboot my
| computer before it will work again. For some reason, Zoom
| will just _hang_ after all of this. I just keep repeating
| the above until Zoom works again.
|
| This is my employer provided MacBook Pro. I hate the
| experience so much that when it's time for a laptop
| refresh, I'm going to ask for the Windows option if they
| haven't upgraded their Mac offering to one that supports
| two monitors.
|
| I love Apple products -- but I never understood how they
| could release a "Pro" laptop that supported only one
| external monitor.
| robryan wrote:
| Interesting as for me it mostly just works, I wonder if
| has to do with the dock as much as the software.
| agloeregrets wrote:
| I used an M1 Air docked with displaylink for about 8
| months. 1. The Displaylink software heats the machine
| lightly in the background, and it just gets worse with
| resolution. 2. The Adaptor is unreliable and can do some
| really wonky stuff around dock and undock due to Apple's
| locked USB policies. 3. The old series of Adaptors do not
| support 4K60, so if you plan on using it with a 4K display,
| you need to pony up on costs.
|
| Assuming we see more ~$1600 sales on the M1 Pro 14 inch,
| that is easily $300 more computer than a $1299 M2 macbook
| pro.
| andrewia wrote:
| Not to mention DisplayLink can be broken by MacOS
| updates. Tunneling video over USB was a clever hack back
| in the day, but with USB-C and TB3/USB4 docks, things are
| much less software-dependent.
| pdabbadabba wrote:
| I'm not sure the downvoting is warranted. For what it's
| worth, I use display link every day (with an M2 MacBook
| Air) and it's fine. The refresh rate really suffers when
| driving two 4k monitors (as well as the built-in panel),
| but I've found it to be a reasonable workaround.
|
| Of course, it's also helpful to know that others have had
| worse experiences.
| moonchrome wrote:
| I was thinking about throwing some last gen parts into an old
| tower/PSU I have to build a desktop for inlaws since they are
| stuck on a 10year old hand down laptop. This is a good package
| at that price (599$) - power consumption is likely nothing,
| MacOS included in price, small and quiet - will comfortably
| browse the internet, play videos, etc. for the next 5+ years. I
| won't be able to repair it out of warranty so that's a bummer-
| but at such low price and their usage pattern I guess I can
| live with the risk.
| myself248 wrote:
| Shame I can't buy an M2 Max on an ATX mobo.
| judge2020 wrote:
| I imagine a lot of the performance of the M1 and thereafter
| is a direct result of moving the memory closer to the die.
| The power efficiency, sure, that's all engineering, but
| super close and fast memory right next to the CPU is only
| one step away from AMD's 3D v-cache that has (had) the
| 5800X3D beating out newer 7000 series AMD chips.
| kcb wrote:
| I think the bigger factor is that the 3D v-cache is SRAM,
| which is why it needs a whole stacked die for just 64mb.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| ATX is just a formfactor, there's nothing preventing
| apple from releasing an ATX board with soldered-on memory
| - this is actually not even that unusual in the uATX
| formfactor.
| ac29 wrote:
| > I imagine a lot of the performance of the M1 and
| thereafter is a direct result of moving the memory closer
| to the die
|
| I'm not sure why this Apple marketing point gets repeated
| so often. The M2 has the same memory support as current
| Intel chips: 128-bit LPDDR5 6400. Mounting the memory on
| the same package as the CPU might have some engineering
| advantages compared to socketed RAM, but it doesnt make
| the (industry standard) memory any faster.
| BirAdam wrote:
| It would be cool to get the SoC on a socket like the
| Pentium II was, and then have some NVMe slots, PCIe slots,
| and more I/O ports. This would also be better for the
| planet if it was a standard feature of each Macintosh and
| just the SoC got replaced. Unfortunately, Apple's Macintosh
| line doesn't work that way. The first Macs were all-in-one
| designs, the 90s saw some heterogeneity, and then the
| Macintosh line came back to an all-in-one design (except
| for the MacPro line and the G4 Cube). Today, the G4 Cube is
| like something out of an alternate universe. Not only was
| it upgradable, it was also incredibly easy to "open up".
| randomopining wrote:
| Is this thing actually faster than a cheap Ryzen build for
| browsing? Like a 5600g that are super cheap now
| Kirby64 wrote:
| M1 was faster than a 5600g, I think, but you can get a
| 5-series micro PC for cheaper than even the cheapest Mac
| Mini. For 'browsing' operations, I suspect it wouldn't
| matter much. There may be some advantage to using macOS vs.
| Windows, if this is aiding a family member... since I
| assume the IT support burden would be lower.
| rsynnott wrote:
| Yes: https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-
| ryzen-5-5600g https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-
| air-2022 (same chip as in the cheaper Mini; the Mini has a
| fan so it should run a _little_ faster there)
|
| Though for web browsing both presumably fall solidly under
| "good enough".
|
| If I was signing up for Tech Support for Relatives, though,
| I'd _definitely_ go with the Mac; you don't want to be
| getting phonecalls about Windows 12 or whatever in 2027.
| kube-system wrote:
| Apples M chips are stupid fast at browsing the web because
| they have some native CPU instructions for JavaScript that
| x86_64 chips don't.
| hajile wrote:
| Actually, it's the reverse. The JS spec accidentally
| baked in the x86 description of int/float conversion.
|
| This is done a LOT in JS because the JITs are actually
| using integers instead of floats all over the place for
| improved performance.
|
| The ARM "JS" instruction just encodes the x86 semantics
| into hardware making the conversion several times faster
| than doing it in software.
| yurishimo wrote:
| Assuming you use Safari. For older relatives, probably
| not a bad assumption, but an important distinction to
| make nonetheless.
| acdha wrote:
| Mozilla also implemented it. I believe Chrome/v8 have as
| well, but I know there was some work there to avoid
| accidentally enabling it on older ARM chips which don't
| have support for it.
| acdha wrote:
| They're fast but that's not usually why. ARM added some
| functions which could help with math-limited code:
|
| https://community.arm.com/arm-community-
| blogs/b/architecture...
|
| Most JavaScript isn't dependent on that specific a
| feature for performance, however. In most cases what
| matters more is that they have great memory performance
| and handle branch-heavy code well.
| SergeAx wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34412671
| mk89 wrote:
| I totally agree with you.
|
| They are diversifying their laptop/desktop solutions like
| crazy. Even a Macbook Air can almost compete with the entry-
| level version of the Macbook Pro, which is great to be honest.
|
| I heard they are exceptionally good.
|
| Honestly, 7-900$ for a machine that will not get old very soon
| is not so bad, especially if you already own a screen (which
| due to WFH you kind of have to have together with a "decent"
| keyboard, etc.)
|
| Very smart move, honestly.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| "that will not get old very soon"
|
| No idea how you can write that with straight fingers.
| e40 wrote:
| Last year I went from an Intel Mac Pro (6,1 from 2013) that
| I used for 8 years to the M1 Studio. I expect to use that
| for many years to come.
| thewebcount wrote:
| I made the same jump. The MacPro was an awesome machine.
| In fact, it didn't feel slow to me at all and I wouldn't
| have upgraded if it weren't for the fact that they
| stopped supporting it in new OS releases, which means
| critical apps I use would be stuck at their current
| versions. (Plus, I assume they'll be dropping Intel
| support altogether soon, so I wanted to get on Apple
| Silicon for that.)
| e40 wrote:
| I felt exactly the same way. There was one app that was a
| little slow for me, though, and that was Lightroom.
| Definitely way faster on the Studio.
|
| In the summer, I love my Studio way more, too, because it
| generates much less heat. In the Winter, I miss my Intel
| Pro. It really did heat up my office!!
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| I was using Blender on a 12 year old iMac until just a few
| weeks ago. Desktops don't seem to age as quickly as their
| portable counterparts (they are certainly less fragile).
| [deleted]
| zedpm wrote:
| I'm still using a 2015 MacBook Pro, and it doesn't feel
| slow. I've done no repairs or maintenance on it in all that
| time.
| ValentineC wrote:
| I tried the older 14" MacBook Pro for just over a month,
| and it's a world of difference going back to my late 2013
| 13" MacBook Pro.
|
| I've been holding out for the new one and will be placing
| an order in a bit. :) The splurge will more than make up
| for the hours of life I'll save from browsing resource-
| heavy websites.
| vetinari wrote:
| I updated to M1 MBP in 2020 because the 2015 MBP I had
| previously felt slow, and it got progressively worse with
| each macOS update.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Lifecycles for Macs are really long. If you don't buy late
| in the product cycle, they are usually 6 year devices and
| work pretty well, with the exception of the butterfly
| laptops.
|
| If you're pushing the limits, the lifecycle doesn't matter
| as you'll replace annually or whatever anyway.
| freejazz wrote:
| I was using a 2013 air up until two months ago
| unicornporn wrote:
| > given that its keyboard or batteries won't break
|
| There's just soldered RAM and storage that can break and can't
| be replaced (without Apple robbing you).
| tibbon wrote:
| I'm likely going to order one of their Minis with the top CPU
| option and 32gb ram for audio production here. I've got an 2018
| i7 model which is fine, but this one should set me for a _long_
| time.
| vishnugupta wrote:
| That's my setup and I was thinking exactly same; Mini M2 Pro
| with 32GB RAM would be perfect for me. Except that I don't
| have too many complaints with my current machine which I feel
| can easily work just fine for at least 2 more years.
| tibbon wrote:
| I really just use my machine 95% as a tape machine with few
| plugins or edits. So as long as I can get 64 tracks of
| in/out reliably with 128-sample buffers (or lower) then I'm
| set. I just haven't tried that out in my new studio yet, as
| it's under construction. If I can do this, then I'll skip
| the upgrade for now.
| dblooman wrote:
| For those on the M2 Pro mac mini path, the Mac Studio looks a
| look more appealing. 32GB RAM, Max CPU and more ports for the
| same money. Will have to wait for benchmarks, but seems like more
| computer for the money if you upgrade the mini
| rtp4me wrote:
| Thanks for this. Yesterday I picked up a new Mac Studio M1 Max
| with 32G RAM and 1TB NVMe, and today I see the new Mac Mini M2
| Pro with 12 CPUs, 32G RAM, and 1TB NVMe for _about the same
| price_.
|
| Any idea the performance delta between the M1 Max and M2 Pro?
| Wondering if I should trade my new system in for the new Mac
| Mini Pro...
| mathverse wrote:
| The biggest issue I have with macbooks is that they are
| ridiculously expensive. They are intended to be portable devices
| but bringing them anywhere outside my apartment or office is just
| a huge risk.
| asdff wrote:
| Renters insurance is cheap piece of mind for stuff like
| laptops, or bikes you lock up publicly. Regular backups of
| course too.
| sudhirj wrote:
| Dunno, I dropped mine pretty hard at airport security, skidded
| across the floor, left a very small dent. My wife had hers
| placed on a lectern and someone bumped into to and it fell off
| stage, bigger dent but the show went on. And our kid has sat on
| or stepped on both multiple times. They hold up well enough.
| cesarvarela wrote:
| Interesting that you though his reasoning was about
| accidental damage and not thieves.
| ricardobayes wrote:
| I'm a sucker for robustness and build quality so that's why I
| like thinkpads. Dropped one on the tarmac of a race track as
| an engineer and the magnesium body held up like it should.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| They're not much more expensive than a Windows laptop of
| similar specs and _quality_. AppleCare is fairly cheap if
| you're concerned about damage.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Yeah, they're just not Barry's Bargain Basement laptops.
| Comparable models from Dell, Lenovo, HP, etc cost just as
| much.
| nomel wrote:
| > are ridiculously expensive
|
| What makes you say this? Have you speced two systems lately?
| Last I did, the MacBook was comparable to cheaper for the
| price/performance. Of course, a 10lb mobile desktop with a 30
| minute battery was closest.
|
| What comparable notebook do you have in mind?
| Yujf wrote:
| It depends on how you spec it. Apple charges an arm and a leg
| for ram/storage upgrades
| Lio wrote:
| I was about to say the same thing but I've just had a look
| at Dell for a product comparison.
|
| It seems crazy to me that in 2023 Apple offer a PS2,699.00
| laptop with just 512Gb of non-upgradable storage.
|
| Looking at Dell's Precision line bundled with Ubuntu, they
| might be user upgradable but they're still roughly a
| similar ball park to Apple price wise.
|
| Personally I'm going to need to see some full package
| benchmarks before I can form an opinion and will be weeping
| either way.
| bubblethink wrote:
| >they're still roughly a similar ball park
|
| The PC industry uses wildly inflated prices, especially
| MSRP. A more realistic price for laptops can be found on
| various deal sites. A comparable Dell, Lenovo, or HP
| laptop will cost about .5-.6 of the equivalent macbook
| pro price. The vast majority of laptops, even after
| accounting for 1-2 TB of storage and 32 GB RAM cost less
| than $1.5k. MBPs start around $2k.
| Lio wrote:
| That's interesting could post a specific comparison?
|
| I've actually been considering an M1 MBP from a deal site
| in the UK. They seem to be about PS300 off MSRP at the
| moment.
| bubblethink wrote:
| Not too familiar with the UK market, but in the US,
| various AMD Thinkpad T14(s)/T16/P16 gen 3 configurations
| as well as some HP elitebook ones were in the 1-1.5k
| price bracket around Black Friday. I got an elitebook 845
| g9 with 6850 HS and added a 2 TB nvme ssd and 64 GB RAM
| to it as aftermarket purchases for a total of ~$1200
| after tax, additional warranty and a thunderbolt dock.
| nomel wrote:
| > bracket around Black Friday
|
| I think the other 364 days of the year are more relevant,
| since Black Friday sales often have extremely limited
| quantities, and are anything it predictable.
|
| People are claiming 4-6 hours on the hidpi display
| version. That's definitely not comparable. I leave my
| charger at home with my M1.
| bubblethink wrote:
| All x86 power metrics pale in comparison to apple
| silicon. That is a given. The decision is about whether
| you can match other aspects.
| orliesaurus wrote:
| I want to see how the M2 Pro compares to the M2 Air (not on
| paper) before pulling the trigger TBH
| masklinn wrote:
| Same as before. Possibly a small touch better.
|
| Cores are still identical, M2P just has 2 more E cores compared
| to M1P so in some edge cases it should behave a touch better.
| caradine wrote:
| I literally just ordered the M1 Pro yesterday...
| [deleted]
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