[HN Gopher] Strava hikes monthly subscription price
___________________________________________________________________
Strava hikes monthly subscription price
Author : alistairSH
Score : 59 points
Date : 2023-01-13 16:38 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bikeradar.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bikeradar.com)
| stephencoyner wrote:
| I'm shocked they still have such bad route management on desktop
| and mobile.
|
| As a cyclist who likes to use many different routes in different
| areas, I have accumulated 100+ routes.
|
| Yet there is no filtering or grouping system. Why can't I filter
| by geography? Or make folders of routes.
|
| Edit: I did see on desktop they recently added filter cycling
| routes by distance or elevation, but that isn't my problem at
| all. And the max distance filter is 50 miles which doesn't filter
| down the list very much.
| __derek__ wrote:
| It always amuses me when Strava suggests shortest-path routes
| with a dozen turns rather than biasing towards paths revealed
| by its own heat-maps.
| Gigachad wrote:
| I've found sometimes the OSM data is to blame. The Strava
| route planner refused to take the rail underpass because
| someone had marked it as bike access: no. Rather than access:
| dismount. So since I was route planning a bike trip, it just
| wouldn't use that path.
| mbesto wrote:
| Not surprised. My take - Strava was founded over 13 years ago,
| which is a dinosaur in startup land. They've raised $150m+ from
| investors and they want a return, so the company is scrambling to
| make decisions which can make the company more money. So I
| wouldn't be surprised if the specification for pricing was made
| by a committee and implemented by engineers with little
| direction. And since no one has conviction on what will work,
| this is your result (throwing stuff at the wall).
|
| Note - if you follow Strava's history, this isn't the first time
| they've been screwy with their commercial model. They had this
| funky "Training, Safety and Analysis" pack pricing program[0]
| that was confusing and they ultimately reverted back to the
| simple pricing model.
|
| Ultimately the unit economics just don't work out in this space -
| 100 million people don't want to pay to hold their training data
| in a prettier interface when they can just get it for free with
| Garmin (Strava does more than that btw, but the people who are
| fanatical about that info are a miniority). Likewise, if they
| don't IPO, there are too few players in the space that would make
| a $1b+ acquisition.
|
| [0] - https://www.bikeradar.com/news/strava-is-making-a-huge-
| chang...
| nradov wrote:
| The endurance athletes who care about _data_ use Garmin
| Connect, TrainingPeaks, and WKO for tracking and analytics.
| Strava 's analytics and workout planning features are basically
| useless.
|
| Where Strava adds value is as a social network. It's fun to
| share your activities and pictures with friends, and see what
| they have been doing. I've gotten good ideas for routes to try
| or races to enter.
|
| As a long time Strava user it is frustrating to see how it has
| been stagnant for many years and they almost never add useful
| improvements. They still don't support triathlons (or any other
| multisport activities). Many of the segment and challenge
| leaderboards are full of obvious cheaters.
| scoofy wrote:
| Yea, I "left" the app when they started forcing me to pay.
| After a year of paying for it, I just couldn't justify paying
| that much money just to compete, racing along the inherently
| flawed timed segments.
|
| It's an amazing app, and I'd love to pay them for it, but
| unless they were to start releasing hardware that allowed me to
| see and meet up with my friends while riding, it's hard to
| justify hundreds of dollars just for something that my garmin
| or google maps/ridewithgps already does by default.
| prhn wrote:
| I think you're mostly correct here, but Strava's main selling
| point isn't the data store and interface (which in my opinion
| is not great). It's the social feature.
|
| I've met a massive community of cyclists: rode with cycling
| "celebs," trained with really strong amateurs, met a ton of
| people, learned about weekly group rides, learned about the
| best rides in the area, and made some very good friends.
|
| Most of this was facilitated by Strava. I'm glad it hasn't
| devolved into just another shitty social media app, but I do
| feel like they are not capitalizing on what makes them unique.
| Right now that is being the de facto cycling social media
| network.
| mbesto wrote:
| > It's the social feature.
|
| Agreed. But this is a feature that only works on a free
| model. I'm not aware of any major social network makes money
| on 100% of its user community.
| kaesar14 wrote:
| You're not wrong but "no one's done it so no one should
| ever even try" isn't a good reason
| jeffbee wrote:
| > I've ... made some very good friends.
|
| This is my experience. Strava is the only social network
| where I've made friends. It is a net positive in life. Every
| other social network I tried to use caused me to fire some
| friends eventually.
| jq-r wrote:
| Funnily enough, it pretty much broke apart our weekend
| riding group. That was a mountain bike group, and in my
| city there were about 20 of us on those rides depending on
| a season. It didn't matter who was the fastest uphill or
| downhill, or who was the bravest to go on some scary drops
| and jumps. It was always just about having fun whatever
| your abilities are. It was always damned fun on those group
| rides. Ride a lot, talk a lot, enjoy the greenery and fresh
| air, beer at the end, what's not to like?
|
| But little by little, and then all of the sudden, everyone
| had Strava, nobody wanted to rest on a nice place to stop,
| it was always segments, segments, and more segments. People
| didn't want session some nice jump or a section, it was
| always a white knuckle ride top to bottom with no
| technique, or fun, and just furious time comparisons on the
| end of segments. People would even heatedly argue about
| them too, and some riders I know don't talk to each other
| anymore because of it. Forget about chatting while riding,
| how you can chat if your heart is pounding and you're
| chasing that elusive KOM?
|
| So with time, that diverse group fractured because the
| slower guys couldn't keep up with the "I only ride
| segments" guys, and smaller groups formed, but those were
| actually quite short lived. Some of those still ride, but
| mostly solos or in very small groups which is quite sad to
| me.
|
| I guess Strava can definitely help you out if you're riding
| a road bike to find a group which suits your ability. I
| guess in every city you can have plenty to choose from. But
| that just doesn't work if your area has say 50 riders in
| total. Segments in the mountain are great, but only if you
| ride alone like a training, just don't drag a mountain bike
| group into it.
|
| Just to make it clear, I don't blame Strava here at all, it
| is just people who get obssessed by numbers and see rivalry
| when none exist. Or as the saying goes: comparison is a
| thief of joy.
| Alex3917 wrote:
| And that would be a great value at $3-4 a month, but at
| double that, meh.
| jwineinger wrote:
| What features of Strava have helped with that? Did you find a
| local cycling group on Strava and met up with people via
| that? I seem to be a cycling (or at least group riding) dead
| zone, because there don't seem to be any active groups near
| me.
|
| I get kudos from friends afar but the only person that Strava
| helped me connect with was someone that I chatted briefly at
| a stoplight with, who then found me via Strava flyover. But
| even then, we've never ridden together since.
| rday wrote:
| Flyover also helped me connect with groups that I would see
| riding in other directions. Since flyover was made opt-in,
| I haven't gotten any use out of it.
|
| Opt-in is probably a really good idea, even though it
| killed the feature. I really liked that feature. But yea,
| it was too easy to abuse.
|
| Are you able to see any frequent routes using the global
| heat map?
| nradov wrote:
| Use the flyover feature and segment leaderboards to
| identify users active in your area, then check which clubs
| they have joined. Some of those clubs might have a weekly
| group ride either listed as a Strava event, or on a linked
| web site or Facebook group.
|
| Many bike shops also organize a weekly group ride as a
| marketing strategy. If you're already coming there to ride
| then there's a good chance you'll buy something or use
| their mechanic service.
| jlarocco wrote:
| I think the bigger problem is that their users all have
| accounts on competing services by this point.
|
| By the time they got serious about adding features, everybody
| who wanted them had already signed up for alternative services
| that had them. Now Strava is playing catch up with a bunch of
| newer companies, and each one them is focused on a subset of
| Strava's users.
|
| For me, I signed up for RideWithGPS ages before Strava had a
| good route planner. Now Strava has one, but now I'm happy with
| RWGPS and don't have any reason to switch back.
|
| Other people wanted better training tools, and they found
| services that helped with that.
|
| Meanwhile, we've all kept our Strava accounts, because that's
| where the leaderboards and groups are.
| amelius wrote:
| What do they sell?
| operatingthetan wrote:
| Status anxiety for endurance athletes. Half /s.
| justinator wrote:
| Ha. Not disagreeing with you, but it's a social network for
| athletes. What's my favorite athlete up to? How can I emulate
| her? Strava tells me.
| cheeze wrote:
| Premium features. Heart rate tracking, the ability to map
| rides, the ability to compare prior segments.
|
| For most people, it makes all of zero sense. For someone who
| spends 500h+ a year on their bike, it's an easy purchase.
|
| Strava kinda sucks but it blows the competition out the water.
| loeg wrote:
| I spend 500h+ on the bike but don't find much value in
| Strava's paid offering relative to the free version.
| InCityDreams wrote:
| Iook up https://intervals.icu and scroll down - i would say
| strava got blown out of the water!
| korroziya wrote:
| Good time to plug the latest episode of "How Money works" which
| goes into detail on everything becoming a subscription:
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-34rDklImXY
| etrautmann wrote:
| Seems like they haven't improved and still lack incredibly basic
| features like providing a current pace estimate for runners. I
| gave up after years of wanting it to improve and much prefer
| Workoudoors as a one time fair priced alternative that crushes
| strava on features and posts everything to strava automatically
| if you want the social side.
| 762236 wrote:
| Yeah, their development progress feels like old Twitter: they
| have lots of developers and hardly ship new features.
| PascLeRasc wrote:
| Old Twitter was and current Strava are about as good as they
| can be. You can't complain about no new features when you
| haven't articulated what's missing.
| nradov wrote:
| Triathlon activities are missing. Automatic flagging of
| obvious cheaters on segment and challenge leaderboards is
| missing.
| 762236 wrote:
| Even if that were true, both have pathetic performance
| (although Elon is improving Twitter's).
| ilikehurdles wrote:
| They're closer to old Twitter than you think. From what I
| hear, it's a Ruby-on-Rails stack with some Scala lately.
| mrcwinn wrote:
| Yikes! As a starting point, I'd love for Workoutdoors to add a
| valid SSL and not index their HTTP site to Google. I tried this
| once on my Apple Watch Ultra and found it a maddening
| experience. I'm hopeful though that investment in these space
| improves because, to your point, Strava has not been
| contributing all that much.
| mikestew wrote:
| Like sibling, I'm a little confused about the issue with no
| HTTPS. I rarely even view the site, and no user data is on
| there AFAICT. And do the data even leave the watch/phone? I
| don't see any traffic that isn't just synching iCloud data.
|
| Anyway, don't want to get hung up on that, but more to agree
| with your point about the usability of swipe
| left/right/double-tap here, there, everywhere. I understand
| the dev is working with they have been given, but I'm just
| trying to run not be pre-occupied with my watch. And kudos to
| the dev for outstanding work, and for making an app I _want_
| to use. But it just doesn 't fit me.
|
| So with latest updates in WatchOS 9, I just use the built-in
| workout app. If I need maps of some sort, I use an app called
| Footpath (which I discovered here on HN a few years back when
| the dev posted). Now, I think the $25/year is a little pricey
| for what you get. On the other hand, I continue to pay it
| because it's so damned handy. Scrawl on a map with your meat
| stick, using a phone or tablet, and it snaps it to
| trails/roads and gives you the mileage. When you're happy
| with your route, sync it to your watch, sorted. And unlike
| Workoutdoors, it will then proceed to read you directions (if
| you so choose). The directions are so good, I've done a 15
| mile run on single track in community forests around
| Anacortes, WA without looking at my watch. Imagine a forest
| with trails everywhere, intersecting each other, running
| parallel to each other, making for confusing navigation. But
| with enough "in 50 meters, turn left on Trail 239", "go past
| the bridge, then turn right onto Trail 123", "you are off
| course. The course is 150 feet to your left." It is truly
| impressive and very helpful when I'm in an unfamiliar area.
| Garmin can do the same, but it doesn't talk to you, the buzz
| on your wrist is easy to miss, and all you get is a little
| arrow at the bottom of the watch screen.
|
| didn't mean to ramble on about Footpath. No relationship,
| just a satisfied customer (mostly; drop that subscription
| $5-10).
| etrautmann wrote:
| I'm a little confused, are the concerns with SSL and indexing
| related to your experience using it? I use it on Apple watch
| ultra, and was not aware of security issues, but the find the
| usability to be excellent in most cases.
| bluecalm wrote:
| I love Strava. It's a shitty app. It's missing many simple
| features. It doesn't even do GPS reading right (segments are
| often cut out extended at the end/beginning of the activity). It
| does segment matching incorrectly (matches to the first recorded
| activity of the segment creator instead of matching to averaged
| matched runs). Route creator is terrible. You can't even change
| the place the circular route starts at. There are many more
| little quirks, some straight up terrible programming and failure
| to implement obvious cool features.
|
| It's great only because of massive community. Heatmaps (the
| killer feature besides segments), ability to see what routes
| other people ride, segments. Those are simple uses of content the
| users provide which makes it great and let you discover routes,
| meet people and have a little competition.
|
| If we had some kind of way to export the data to another project
| and wouldn't need to go through the minefield of patents then a
| leaner start up could easily take its place. Maybe it's not a
| billion dollar niche yet but a few hundred million market for a
| team of a few good programmers could be good enough to give it a
| shot.
| folli wrote:
| Shameless plug: I'm working on a Strava like web app and I'm
| looking for Beta testers: https://cubetrek.com/static/join.html
|
| It's a hobby project of mine, because I wanted to build an app to
| track my hiking and skiing activities in a way I like it,
| including 3D visualization (I live in Switzerland, so it's
| usually always either up or down and that's hard to visualize on
| a 2D map) and easy comparison of past efforts on the same track.
|
| You're more than welcome to try it out!
| Cyclenerd wrote:
| Shameless plug also: I am the developers and operators of the
| free and vendor independent training log >>
| https://www.velohero.com
|
| Like you, I run this training platform as side project. I have
| been doing this since 2008. No price increase since then
| (always 19EUR). I come from your neighboring country - Germany.
| If you see the change that we join forces, feel free to contact
| me via LinkedIn or email >> https://www.nkn-it.de
| folli wrote:
| Sure, interested to talk. Conceptually, I'm shying away from
| both route planning and training management, there are dozens
| of better apps out there.
|
| I see CubeTrek more of a diary for your adventures and a
| progress tracker for outdoor sports.
| groggo wrote:
| I've got a plug too - http://hilly.run
|
| Summit tracker for Strava. Updates your activity with the
| summited peak name. Go to the web app to see your full list of
| summits and a map.
|
| Working on some big upgrades, like summit lists and way more
| stats.
|
| http://hilly.run
| folli wrote:
| Nice, where do you get the data from? I'm using OpenStreetMap
| (OSM features annotated as 'Peak'), and check with PostGIS
| for peaks that are close to the GPS track.
|
| Generating a list of all summits is a nice idea!
| groggo wrote:
| Yes, I use the same (OSM features annotated as 'Peak').
| I've found a few edge cases, like volcanoes, which I also
| want to count as peaks.
|
| Thanks for sharing your project, I'll have to check it out!
| It was definitely a huge product gap for Strava, but it's
| gotten a little better since they've added the 3d maps.
| operatingthetan wrote:
| Posting the money shot of your app directly:
| https://cubetrek.com/view/6338
|
| Wow this is freaking cool. Please do bikes!
| mikestew wrote:
| "Money shot" is right; let me just close that office door...
|
| Crude humor aside, that's enough to get me to go poke around
| later. Well done. I don't live in the Alps, but the hills
| around the Seattle Eastside area are enough to make good use
| of such a tool.
| folli wrote:
| Yes, give it a try! The steeper the terrain, the nicer the
| model looks (in my opinion).
|
| Here's another one: https://cubetrek.com/view/5813
| folli wrote:
| Thanks man!
|
| I mean you can do bikes, it just takes a GPS track file (GPX
| or FIT) and plots the route. You can also try it out without
| creating an account (drag and drop your file on the front
| page: https://cubetrek.com)
| prhn wrote:
| This is really cool!
|
| Any of the code open source?
| folli wrote:
| Nope, perhaps one day...
|
| For technical details, there's a techstack rundown at the
| very bottom of the homepage (https://cubetrek.com)
| ljf wrote:
| That is amazing! A totally deserved plug - love it. I don't
| live in a very hilly area, but I was frustrated my strava jig
| tracks looked so 'slow' as I was going up and down my local
| coast hills on my run. Hope it can work in my area.
| folli wrote:
| It should, the elevation data comes from the NASA SRTM
| dataset, so unless you live somewhere above the arctic
| circle, it should work. Try it out, you can drag and drop a
| GPX/FIT file on the homepage (http://cubetrek.com) without
| setting up an account.
| pleb_nz wrote:
| I couldn't find much information, but does that app have
| integrations with Garmin for Garmin users?
| mikestew wrote:
| I just tried a quick experiment, and it will import GPX files
| that are exported from Garmin. Whether it will directly pull
| data from Garmin Connect is a question for the dev, but a
| quick test drive did not reveal that functionality.
| folli wrote:
| See above. GPX and FIT files work ( FIT preferred)
| folli wrote:
| Yes! But only Garmin so far (working on Polar now). You need
| to set up an account and than link your Garmin account in the
| profile.
|
| Here's the catch: Garmin only allows syncing of future
| activities. I can't access your past activities from your
| Garmin account. There's a way around it though:
| https://cubetrek.com/static/bulkdownload.html
| [deleted]
| post_break wrote:
| If someone is going to shit on your company, and you're in the
| same sports category as him, you do not want it to be Ray. This
| is going to blow up in their faces. To me he's kind of like the
| face of running, Strava, Wahoo, etc. Yikes.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| I can't see this having a huge impact; if you're a cyclist/runner
| who cares about leaderboards and blasting out your
| accomplishments, you'll continue to pay; if you don't you
| probably don't have Strava premium. As I cyclist I find
| RideWithGPS or Komoot much better for actual route planning /
| navigation (though I use a Wahoo bike computer instead of the app
| for the latter anyway).
| stephencoyner wrote:
| I had to check the app and my subscription in the App Store to
| confirm, but my annual subscription is jumping from $59.99 to
| $79.99. I'm set to renew at the end of this month.
| francisofascii wrote:
| Kinda was waiting for this to happen. Overall I have been happy
| being a Strava subscriber, but great web app experiences never
| last. Eventually quality suffers, Ads get crazy, or prices go way
| up.
| knaik94 wrote:
| @Dang I am confused, was this merged? The Dcrainmaker article is
| more informative and discusses more nuances.
|
| https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2023/01/strava-raises-prices-dou...
| tschellenbach wrote:
| They also sign contracts and don't pay bills. Not the most
| ethical company
| operatingthetan wrote:
| It's a classic story of a startup with a loyal userbase paying a
| reasonable fee for stagnating features for years, misjudges
| customer loyalty, doubles the price, then makes some PR mistakes,
| and comes out behind in the end.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > It's a classic story of a startup with a loyal userbase
| paying a reasonable fee for stagnating features for years,
| misjudges customer loyalty, doubles the price, then makes some
| PR mistakes, and comes out behind in the end.
|
| Is private equity involved here?
|
| Someone in my family was recently looking for a calorie tracker
| app. All the ones I was familiar with (and liked) from years
| ago had been acquired by private equity, which only crippled
| the free tier and make subscriptions ridiculously expensive.
|
| Seems like the private equity playbook is to cut development to
| the bare bones, increase prices, and let the app rot while they
| burn the goodwill to turn it into short/medium term cashflow.
| mbesto wrote:
| > Is private equity involved here?
|
| Nope. But VCs are involved.
|
| > Seems like the private equity playbook is to cut
| development to the bare bones, increase prices, and let the
| app rot while they burn the goodwill to turn it into
| short/medium term cashflow.
|
| Quite the opposite. Most PE does not do this btw, unless it's
| large cap ($1b+ valuation or higher). This is VC backed, and
| they are actually aggressively investing in growth (at all
| costs).
| abadger9 wrote:
| > and comes out behind in the end.
|
| As someone in the tri community in vc funded silicon valley, I
| haven't heard of a better alternative to strava? would
| genuinely be interested in trying something better but all my
| running clubs still seem to be using strava
| stefan_ wrote:
| TrainingPeaks, Xert, ... there are a number of sites that
| cater to professional training analysis. It's a niche they
| tend to do much better at than Strava since they don't have
| the social thing to go with it. Meanwhile, if all you want is
| the social part, why are you paying for Strava.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Depends on the features you want.
|
| For social stuff? They're the gorilla in the room. But, the
| pure social stuff isn't gated (comments/posts/groups).
|
| For training analysis? TrainingPeaks, TrainerRoad, Wahoo
| Systm, intervals.icu, and others. Of course, some of those
| rely on Strava APIs to get data to/from devices.
| 0xf8 wrote:
| [dead]
| mbesto wrote:
| https://intervals.icu/ - just no social features.
|
| https://app.trainingpeaks.com/ - if you have a coach
| californical wrote:
| I mean for me, just.. not using strava. I'm also in a
| triathlon club in my area, and some people use strava
| together, but a bunch of people don't, and you aren't really
| missing out on much by not having it.
|
| I use intervals.icu for planning my training - it has one
| main developer and he's great. And it's completely free
| unless you want to donate (which I do)
| operatingthetan wrote:
| >I use intervals.icu for planning my training
|
| That's the crazy thing about Strava's situation, so many
| companies have integrated with their API, or built Chrome
| extentions on top of Strava that replicate their
| functionality but better and for free. People have been
| begging for improvments like that for premium and I'd bet
| by now most have settled on something like intervals.icu
| and wouldn't miss premium anyway.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| Runalyze is another great one.
| frankhhhhhhhhh wrote:
| Garmin Connect actually has all the useful (to me) features
| Strava has.
|
| If all your buddies have Garmins and post public rides/runs,
| you get segment leaderboards, friends news feed, popularity
| routing, kudos, a training calendar that connects to
| TrainingPeaks and all the stats you could want.
|
| Plus Garmin has very capable sports watches and smart body
| weight scales to consolidate all your fitness indicators in
| one place. Also, it's completely free.
|
| The downside is the user base is much smaller so less
| segments and who knows if your KOM is the fastest time. You
| also won't get randos on the internet kudo'ing your
| rides/runs and boosting your ego. Also, no cool extensions
| like Elevate, StravaSauce, etc.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| > smart body weight scales
|
| My experience with their index scale is that it's garbage
| for anything other than weight.
|
| Agree with everything else you say though.
| frankhhhhhhhhh wrote:
| I had a similar experience until I learned about the
| importance of setting a correct Activity Class. Don't
| think that's actually even in the manual.
| https://support.garmin.com/en-
| US/?faq=DJEru6ns626MZTh2kvUXZA
| iamacyborg wrote:
| Yeah I've done that, I've had the scale for a couple
| years and the issue was never resolved. If you check the
| garmin forums for the 7% body fat bug you'll see it's an
| ongoing issue for a lot of folks.
| milkytron wrote:
| What features are you looking for with a running app?
|
| I haven't used Strava, but Garmin seems to have a decent
| enough app and their devices are pretty popular amongst the
| running and cycling communities. I've been using Garmin's app
| and a watch for about 6 months now and couldn't be happier
| with my experience.
| tcmb wrote:
| For route planning (one of Strava's paid features), there's
| Komoot.com or bikemap.net.
| ilikehurdles wrote:
| The tri people I know pay for TrainingPeaks and TrainerRoad,
| not strava.
| SarikayaKomzin wrote:
| I quite like https://smashrun.com/, but, to be transparent, I
| pair it with Strava.
| mgl wrote:
| You may want to try Runalyze, gives way more running-related
| analytics than Strava
| scott_w wrote:
| If you want a tool for training then TrainingPeaks is the
| standard. Most other services don't really come close, to be
| honest.
| mattwest wrote:
| Strava has turned into a social media and comparison platform.
| Ironically some of the highest performing endurance athletes I
| know don't even use it anymore. TrainingPeaks + Garmin is where
| it's at.
| 762236 wrote:
| "Turned into"? It is a social platform with large networking
| effects. It also supports decent analysis of your performance
| for self-coached athletes.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| It sounds more like Garmin are eating their lunch in terms of
| training features for the general public.
|
| TP is obviously even better as a product if you're working with
| a coach hence why so many triathletes favour it.
|
| Strava's a fantastic social platform but I don't use it for
| anything more than that.
| __derek__ wrote:
| I'm in the same boat: Strava is just for cheering on friends
| (and occasionally looking at segment PRs). My only gripe with
| Garmin Connect is that it unfairly negs some runs, e.g.,
| calling my slower runs after recent snow/ice storms
| Unproductive.
| 762236 wrote:
| I haven't used Garmin in two years. How does it sound like
| Garmin is eating Strava's lunch? Back then, Garmin didn't
| offer me anything for cycling that Strava didn't have. Has
| this changed?
| iamacyborg wrote:
| I guess the question I have is what features did Strava
| have for cycling which Garmin didn't? My main sport is
| running so I'm coming at it from that angle.
|
| I suspect the new training status stuff that's been rolled
| out would likely be a good fit for cyclists, even those who
| haven't purchased a power meter.
| hello_moto wrote:
| > Strava has turned into a social media and comparison platform
|
| Always has been that way; that's the whole idea of Strava (or
| Komoot, RideWithGPS, etc). These platforms are for casuals.
|
| > Ironically some of the highest performing endurance athletes
| I know don't even use it anymore. TrainingPeaks + Garmin is
| where it's
|
| Always been this way as well (TrainingPeaks/TrainerRoads).
| These platforms are for training and improving performance.
| Garmin is Garmin... majority of endurance athletes wear Garmin
| devices (or Suntoo).
|
| Having said that, it's easy to upload to multiple platforms so
| they all treat Strava or other social media as brand awareness.
| dkislyuk wrote:
| > These platforms are for casuals.
|
| At least in road and trail running, this doesn't line up with
| my observation. There are plenty of elite athletes, at least
| in the US, who are posting their training on Strava (Jim
| Walmsley, CJ Albertson, Molly Seidel, etc.) At the fast
| amateur level (e.g. those chasing the Olympic Trials
| Qualifier time), Strava adoption is pretty ubiquitous.
|
| Out of the the athletes who are active on social media in the
| first place, those who don't post on Strava are usually doing
| it either for privacy reasons, or because they do not want to
| share their training plans for their competitors to copy.
| hello_moto wrote:
| > At least in road and trail running, this doesn't line up
| with my observation. There are plenty of elite athletes, at
| least in the US, who are posting their training on Strava
|
| Yup, (personal) brand awareness. Strava is for casuals but
| the training results will be posted there regardless who
| you are (except as you mentioned, for privacy). As I stated
| above: Strava is for casuals, those Amateur->Pro level
| posted there "just because" it's easy to do it not because
| they rely Strava for Data Analysis.
|
| Those athletes will rely on other platforms to analyze
| their training data (Garmin offers more insight for
| example).
|
| Setting up Strava to link with Garmin is easy right? Things
| will sync from that point onward.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| > These platforms are for casuals.
|
| For training, sure, but a significant proportion of Olympic
| calibre athletes use the social elements of these tools.
| hello_moto wrote:
| That's what I stated: the "amateur -> pros" level athletes
| are using the social elements to build their brands (aside
| from TikTok, YouTube, Twitter, etc)
| truthwhisperer wrote:
| [dead]
| unglaublich wrote:
| They want ROI for their recent $150M raise...
| moneywoes wrote:
| Could be have an acquisition coming up and are looking to boost
| TTM revenues?
| stephencoyner wrote:
| Who would buy them? Please not Nike or some other brand that
| wants to lock them in
| aliqot wrote:
| Considering the cost of tubes, tires, etc these days.. So what?
| Maybe a runner sees it differently, but for a cyclist the value
| is there, and the cost is justified. I can't think about needing
| an inflation adjustment in salary and get mad when merchants do
| also.
|
| Good on them. If people will pay it, it's the right move. Can't
| spend internet points anyway so hit me.
| operatingthetan wrote:
| I assume Strava thinks about it like you: we have an affluent
| base who spends thousands a year on their sports, they can
| afford it.
|
| On the other hand, I think most every consumer looks at it like
| they look at every other recurring service: is what I'm getting
| for my money worth it versus the competitors? The problem with
| Strava is that their premium features have been stagnant for
| years, and the feature set is provided by other companies and
| services for free or cheaper.
|
| I think a good percentage of people are like myself and pay for
| Strava because I want to support them, and rarely use the
| premium features. Treating customers badly and not
| communicating about a price increase breaks the spell and
| causes the feature comparison and questions from customers.
| ak217 wrote:
| > their premium features have been stagnant for years
|
| Not my experience. They overhauled their route builder and
| made it subscription-only in 2021 - and kept improving it
| since. The route builder with the built-in heatmaps has no
| competition, and is a killer feature for many. Also there's
| the whole network effects thing where there Strava dominates
| social networking for recreational cyclists/runners
| operatingthetan wrote:
| They definitely did that to compete with Komoot and
| Ridewithgps. Compare the platform with piggy-back app
| intervals.icu which adds so many more useful technical
| training features and you'll see what I mean.
|
| >Also there's the whole network effects thing where there
| isn't really another social network for recreational
| athletes
|
| Most of those features are in the free version. Many keep
| the free acccount, and utilize more serious tools for the
| rest.
| ak217 wrote:
| Again not my experience. The heatmap is essential and
| frankly all the other apps suck for route planning
| (including the ones you listed as well as others that
| have come and gone over the years). Strava's route
| planner has no competition, their main concern is not
| some upstart app that computes obscure workout details,
| but getting disintermediated by Apple or Garmin bundling
| apps with their wearables.
|
| I agree that doesn't excuse poor PR around price
| increases though.
| andor wrote:
| _" Strava's route planner has no competition"_
|
| That's an absurd statement.
|
| All of the route planning tools have their advantages and
| disadvantages. I frequently create routes for cycling and
| a couple of times I used Strava, Komoot and Garmin
| Connect for the same route. Garmin Connect always works
| because it can ignore map data if necessary. Strava and
| Komoot were not always able to create the route I want
| (looks like Strava have added a "manual mode" as well).
|
| Most of the people around me use Komoot, it's also my
| preferred tool now. The information density on the map is
| great, the POIs shown on the map can be customized and
| editing works well enough.
|
| Strava is okay. It definitely looks sleek. The biggest
| issue is that routes cannot be edited in the mobile app,
| only created. Editing is possible in the browser but
| really awkward. Try rerouting parts of an existing route.
|
| Heatmaps are useful sometimes, e.g. when I'm abroad and I
| don't know if a road can be cycled on at all. But the
| most used roads are not necessarily the best ones. Komoot
| doesn't have a heatmap visualization but there are
| comments, ratings and photos of segments.
| operatingthetan wrote:
| Not your experience, but it's definitely the prevailing
| sentinment by users in the threads I've read about this.
| If I read a lot of people saying "I can't cancel because
| I need the route builder" then maybe you would have a
| point.
|
| Overhauling one feature that only a few care about isn't
| a persuasive argument that they've kept up with their
| competitors.
| plorkyeran wrote:
| The heatmap integration really is the killer feature for
| me. I otherwise don't like Strava's route planner, but the
| heatmap is better data for deciding what road to take than
| anything available elsewhere.
| alistairSH wrote:
| _I think most every consumer looks at it like they look at
| every other recurring service: is what I 'm getting for my
| money worth it versus the competitors?_
|
| This is me. With the proliferation of subscription services
| for just about anything software-related, I'm reassess all of
| my services a few times each year. I regularly
| unsubscribe/resubscribe to TV services and do the same with
| Zwift for indoor cycling.
| zbrozek wrote:
| I've had a handful of subscription services that I've
| canceled when they raise their prices. I stopped
| subscribing to Strava and Netflix quite a long while ago. I
| dropped Prime last year. Currently I subscribe to water,
| gas, electricity, fixed-line internet, cellular, Costco,
| landscaper, mortgage, and government.
|
| Any software that was once a one-time-buy and which becomes
| subscription, I simply get stuck on the last version that I
| actually bought.
| aliqot wrote:
| > I think most every consumer looks at it like they look at
| every other recurring service
|
| This may not address your comment directly, but I can feel a
| strawman forming that I'd like to get ahead of for others.
|
| Fitness and entertainment are not comparable. If you're into
| fitness, you're in 100%, especially so at the competitive
| level. If you're an entertainment person, don't compare it to
| your Netflix bill, compare it to your grocery bill. Suddenly
| it makes sense.
| operatingthetan wrote:
| Nobody considers Strava's training tools 'serious.' It's a
| social network for training. The premium tools all have
| better versions on other platforms like Training Peaks,
| Xert, TrainerRoad etc. that literally every athelete uses
| instead. No athlete is sharing their training data with
| their coach on Strava, so given that I think comparisons to
| entertainment are fair.
|
| >but I can feel a strawman forming
|
| Let's address fallacies as they happen instead of before
| they do, okay? I find this uncharitable.
| kmonsen wrote:
| Or even Garmin connect, I was looking for a coach and
| most wanted to use some sort of training peaks/garmin
| combo.
|
| They were actually, please don't use Strava. You will not
| follow the training plan and just exhaust yourself to set
| a PR when I want you to be slow and consistent instead.
| operatingthetan wrote:
| I had a friend who did that exact thing. Was a decent cat
| 2 or 3 at that point but was constantly chasing KOMs and
| burned themselves out hard.
| Fordec wrote:
| Well my Netflix and UberEats bills are $0 and if a
| subscription service is to be compared to a basic human
| need as food itself, that's a bit of a complete
| misunderstanding of a general humans hierarchy of needs.
| That applies to _any_ entertainment service.
| 6LLvveMx2koXfwn wrote:
| From my current account page:
|
| > Your annual membership will automatically renew on 22 August
| 2023 for PS47.99
|
| Hard to get excited about. Maybe it goes up to PS54.99 as per
| the article, also hard to get excited about.
| Dachande663 wrote:
| I started supporting smashrun.com a few years ago. Tiny team,
| passionate updates, and it feels good to support people living
| the life they want vs giving some VC a 10x return.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > For some people, prices will double overnight. For others,
| it'll be nothing. Others still yet will split the difference on a
| wide-ranging scale in between those points. The determining
| factor? Theoretically a combination of which country you're in,
| when exactly you signed up, whether you're on annual or monthly
| plans, and finally, exactly what today's date is, relative to the
| date of your subscription renewal. I'm not kidding, you can't
| make this up.
|
| This sounds like the over-complicated scheme you get after too
| many product managers spend 6 months holding meetings where
| nobody wants to back down, so instead they continue to add
| complexity until every last piece of the decision is a
| compromise.
| adrr wrote:
| When you get too many MBAs into a room. Pricing and features
| are based on an excel model optimizing for revenue with some
| magic numbers someone picked out of a hat that determines price
| sensitivity by region. Don't let your CFO drive. They are a
| support role only.
| bunsenhoneydew wrote:
| I couldn't agree more with "Don't let your CFO drive". I've
| worked at several companies that turned to absolute shit as a
| result of exactly this.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| To me it sounds more like they have key clients already paying
| wildly different arrangements, who are going to want to get out
| of the contract if they learn the new pricing
|
| Its going to burn alot of bridges and there's no way out of the
| quagmire
|
| Its just a case study of when the means (always be closing)
| stop justifying the end
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| seneca wrote:
| I think you hit it dead on. This is design by committee and
| organizational dysfunction.
|
| Strava has been flailing for years now, dropping much used
| features and just generally antagonizing its customer base.
| It's a wonder they're still around and as widely used as they
| are. Just goes to show how many bad decisions you can absorb as
| a market leader, I suppose.
| stephencoyner wrote:
| Agreed it would seem there is a lack of product vision at
| this point
| chairmanwow1 wrote:
| What is a good alternative? I want some analytics / tools for
| training specific distances.
| ohyoutravel wrote:
| SmashRun https://smashrun.com/ if you do only running
| activities. It's great. Though while I pay for that, I also
| pay for strava since 2012 and will continue to do so.
| Disagree with grandparent post, I think strava has become
| better and better over time and I find it more engaging and
| useful than before.
| camel_gopher wrote:
| TrainerRoad is outstanding for structured training. Doesn't
| have the social aspect.
| oezi wrote:
| Intervals.icu
| mbesto wrote:
| https://intervals.icu/ - for the lazy
|
| The app is incredible if you're a data junky and very
| serious about performance. Strava is more sexy about maps
| and sharing though.
| InCityDreams wrote:
| Intervals has maps and can be shared. I'm already in a
| couple of groups. Getting more people to jump across may
| be easier, now. Thanks strava.
| amateurdev wrote:
| If you're a Garmin device user, the app is pretty good! I
| only recently started using their app more often and
| barring the social aspects, I dont think Strava offers me
| anything more. HR zones, recovery etc are all already in
| the Garmin app whereas its paid on Strava.
|
| I guess for those who want routes/segments might gravitate
| towards Strava but I use a fairly standard set of routes so
| I dont value in that either.
| walrus01 wrote:
| Eventually taken to its logical conclusion, you end up with
| something that looks like the terms and conditions and contract
| clauses seen when signing up for a "promotional" offer price on
| a 24 or 36-month service term with a famously consumer abusive
| Canadian cellular carrier like Bell, Telus or Rogers or one of
| their sub-brands wholly owned MVNOs.
|
| Or for "landline" Telus fiber based last mile ISP service
| bundled with TV.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Follow-up video...
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3szJ67iM1E&t=1s
|
| Apparently, Strava rolled out these increases with no explanation
| or notice to users. And oddly, they refuse to tell journalists
| what the official subscription fees will be, leaving it to the
| journalists to dig around and figure it out on their own.
|
| I understand prices have to go up to pay for hosting and
| development, but this is a weird one. Massive increase, no new
| features announced, and next to zero communication from the
| company.
| prepend wrote:
| Prices should not go up for hosting and development. Prices
| should go down per user as there are fixed costs. Same with
| development.
|
| Unless strava is losing users their costs aren't going up,
| especially not 30%.
|
| It's easy to argue that costs go up but that's not due to
| development, but due to corporate overhead.
|
| Unless they are doing something really wacky with saas costs,
| they should have low marginal costs so as long as they have a
| decent growth, costs go down.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| I suspect their costs are going up because more and more
| people are buying fitness and sports watches and integrating
| those services with Strava.
|
| Not only are they simply storing the received data but they
| do a lot with it like calculating segments.
| notyourwork wrote:
| > Prices should not go up for hosting and development. Prices
| should go down per user as there are fixed costs. Same with
| development.
|
| That's the naive in theory world. In practice, it is not
| always the case that economies of scale lend to reduced
| hosting/infra costs. They can in fact balloon, especially for
| a small population or a small niche use case.
| klabb3 wrote:
| > And oddly, they refuse to tell journalists what the official
| subscription fees will be
|
| Probably because there is no one price, but rather determined
| from a formula. Individual price setting is a wet dream of any
| business with low marginal cost. This is, to my understanding,
| the force behind DVD region locking (which later transitioned
| into digital services) - the optimal price depends on the
| consumer purchasing power, which varies significantly by
| region. Now region [?] individual, but the more cohorts and
| factors you have, the closer fit you can theoretically achieve.
|
| In other words, Strava would probably love to charge premium
| from Bay Area power users on FAANG compensation. At the same
| time, they'd love to acquire and retain paying users in the
| lower brackets, rather than none at all.
|
| I'm not sure of the legal risks, but in the court of public
| opinion this is akin to scalping your own product. If I get a
| different price than my friend, I'll feel ripped off.
|
| To me, it's surprising that this isn't happening more. This is
| an almost inevitable consequence of the surveillance capitalism
| paradigm of the digital landscape. The incentives are there,
| and most importantly, the data needed for individual prices is
| there.
| bochoh wrote:
| They just needed to show 20% growth in revenue to IPO, and like
| magic it happened
| operatingthetan wrote:
| If you go on /r/strava there have been threads about it all
| week and a large percentage of posters say they are
| cancelling. It seems like this is blowing up in their faces a
| bit.
| beardedetim wrote:
| I definitely cancelled mine. I decided to switch to using
| Garmin Connect fulltime instead of that and Strava.
| alistairSH wrote:
| I'm in the "still shows original price" boat for now.
| If/when my annual renewal comes due and the price is $80
| instead of $50, I'll probably cancel as well.
| oezi wrote:
| Strava is being massively greedy here without showing innovation
| over the last years.
|
| Worse the app is still plagued with import issues and
| inaccuracies such as the famous Strava tax where it always rounds
| down distances so people stop for instance a race when their
| running watch shows a 10.0 km run only to find out that it was
| just 9.995 km and Strava shows it as 9.99 km.
| rday wrote:
| Is Strava really being greedy here? Last year at this time,
| software developers were jumping ship in every company to get
| huge raises at other companies. Salaries went through the roof.
| Now many tech companies are laying folks off.
|
| What other options are there when you staff demands huge raises
| or leaves for greener pastures?
| nequo wrote:
| > when their running watch shows a 10.0 km run only to find out
| that it was just 9.995 km and Strava shows it as 9.99 km.
|
| That is a 10 meter difference between what Strava and the
| running watch report. That does not sound that atrocious?
| jwineinger wrote:
| I think the point is that effort is not tracked as a 10k, so
| you don't see that in your PR history, etc. Plus it is just
| annoying to do something big for yourself and have a tool
| publicly shortchange you.
| goguy wrote:
| Definitely not. Everyone knows these things are super
| accurate, considering that it's pretty darn good.
| ohyoutravel wrote:
| Somewhat small complaint, but this bit me. Did a half marathon
| and got a PR, stopped when my watch hit 13.1. Strava didn't
| record this as a HM because it had the mileage at 13.09 or
| something. Very annoying and still irks me.
| johnmaguire wrote:
| Hah - I did a Strava challenge once where that happened on a
| 102 mile ride.
|
| I always ride a little extra now.
| PascLeRasc wrote:
| They don't need to show innovation when the product is
| complete. Twitter with the new innovative "For You" tab is much
| worse than when it was coasting with nothing new. Same with
| electron 1Password 8.
| merb wrote:
| electron 1password 8 would be ok. if it worked as before or
| better, I mean enthusiast would've cared, but most people
| not. I mean they did not have a linux app before which they
| now have. but what is so stupid about 1password 8 is the new
| search, its just stupid.
| ilamont wrote:
| _Strava's increase also follows rises from other subscription
| services, such as Netflix and Amazon Prime._
|
| And Adobe - I was just told my $14.99 plan was rising to $19.99.
|
| Quickbooks online - a similar rise last November.
| latchkey wrote:
| YouTube Premium too...
| https://9to5google.com/2022/10/20/youtube-premium-price-hike...
| Wonnk13 wrote:
| WOW. Ray / DCRainmaker is a huge voice in the endurance sports
| world, you don't want this kind of publicity from him.
|
| I've had a Strava since, forever? Over a decade at this point.
| It's the de facto app for cycling and running and is one social
| media app I get real value from.
|
| I will say- as someone who pays for Strava Premium their product
| strategy has been a mess for ages. Feature requests go
| unacknowledged for years and they keep adding silly features no
| one wants.
|
| I'll keep using it because my friends are all on it, but it does
| feel like they are slowly dying of self inflicted wounds.
| Gigachad wrote:
| I wonder if their infrastructure costs are getting too much.
| Having all that backlog of data that has to be processed to do
| the high score boards and such must cost a fortune.
| notyourwork wrote:
| percent? or per cent? Perhaps a minor correction in title.
| dr_petes wrote:
| I'm mildly annoyed that the headline doesn't know the
| difference between the two.
| xboxnolifes wrote:
| There's a difference?
| __derek__ wrote:
| The article is from a British publication.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Not seeing a lot of rational discourse here in the thread. The
| price of Strava has been in continual monotonic decline in real
| dollar terms. A 35% price increase across the board, if that is
| the weighted average, would just bring them up to 2009-2023
| chained inflation.
| ilikehurdles wrote:
| As it stands, paying for Strava feels like paying for Twitter in
| terms of the cost/benefit trade off.
|
| I was a subscriber for a long time but canceled about 2 or so
| years ago when they went big in on sponsored content. For me it
| provided no value over Garmin's tools, which are free (with a
| device purchase?) and IMO superior for deep fitness tracking, and
| respecting of my data privacy. I seldom run into an athlete who
| doesn't use a Garmin device. Similarly, the Peloton folks have
| their own fitness data dashboard, and I assume the Wahoo folks
| do, too.
|
| Strava's competitive advantage should come from its vast data
| moat, but I feel like they're struggling to monetize that
| effectively. Their social feed is its primary attraction today,
| but putting that behind a paywall would harm the revenue they get
| from offering sponsored content (challenges and posts) and
| analytics products for city planners.
|
| Segments was their original big feature, but that has seemingly
| fallen to abandonment.
|
| I _want_ an effective, low-frustration, high trust way to find
| and follow popular user-created maps (and segments I guess.)
| Every map search service, from Garmin to Run/RideWithGPS to
| Strava feels close to something great, but each lacking that wow-
| factor. If anything, AllTrails is closest to a polished and
| powerful UX that could swallow that entire market if they had the
| interest in going multi-modal (beyond the heavy focus on
| destination trail running/walking/hiking).
| scott_w wrote:
| I'm not a Strava subscriber (I prefer TrainingPeaks for that) but
| wow, this is a poor way to communicate price increases. Most
| people can deal with prices increasing. What they can't deal with
| is a total lack of communication about that increase.
|
| If Strava don't know what they're going to charge then they
| shouldn't communicate until they can put that number in front of
| customers. The alternative is... this!
| iamacyborg wrote:
| No wonder they've been so aggressively pushing popups and emails
| to upgrade to a subscription service over the last few weeks.
|
| My favourite was the bait and switch email with this subject
| line:
|
| "Your _complete_ personalised 2022 stats recap is here"
|
| Which was actually just an email telling me to upgrade to see my
| recap.
| mikestew wrote:
| If one has Garmin Connect, go to Reports/Progress Summary,
| choose date range (including "last year") from dropdown: more
| stats than you'll know what to do with.
|
| And, yeah, I understand getting the stats isn't the point, but
| perhaps someone finds it helpful if Strava won't give up the
| data.
| voisin wrote:
| In previous years that recap was included in the free tier.
| iamacyborg wrote:
| Yeah, it's such a weird thing to gate behind a paid
| subscription too. It's not like I get anything useful beyond
| minor feel good fuzzies from yearly recaps of that nature.
| ilikehurdles wrote:
| So were most of their mapping features. And their
| leaderboards. Their approach to monetization of late has been
| to sprinkle a little glitter on existing features and then
| put the entire feature behind a paywall and raise the price
| later.
| jcdavis wrote:
| The messaging here is absolutely terrible, but I suspect most
| premium users will keep their subscription.
|
| There was a similar uproar last time when they gated a bunch of
| popular features behind premium, but anecdotally it _massively_
| increased the subscribers among serious users (myself included).
| As long as they have a defacto monopoly in the social fitness
| space, serious users will pay.
| james_pm wrote:
| It's going from $9.99 to $14.99/month in Canada. I'm out. Even at
| $10 I was considering whether it was worth it. At $15 it's not
| even close. I turned off auto-renew this morning when I saw the
| DC Rainmaker video.
| tonymet wrote:
| Stravas security breaches have remained off the radar. Private
| runs and maps are exposed . There have been cases of harassment,
| doxxing and assault via these breaches.
|
| I finally quit Strava when I got an Apple Watch and they added
| friction to Apple health sync. As a paid subscriber it was
| received as deliberately hostile UX to pump daily engagement
| numbers
|
| They have a great network of amateur athletes but it's not worth
| the risk
| folli wrote:
| I'm also looking in integrating Apple Health sync data into an
| app I'm currently working on. However, to be honest, Apple is
| also being a PITA. Pretty much every other fitness tracker
| (Garmin, Polar, Suunto) offers some kind of Web API to access
| and sync data. But of course Apple does not do that, you need
| to build some kind of app on iOS which the user needs to
| install on his/her device, which of course adds extra friction.
| tonymet wrote:
| The industry is moving toward on-device APIs for privacy
| protection. that way the data can remain encrypted & private
| on the device and there's less risk of a breach.
|
| In Strava's case they already have the integration complete
| and the hostile UX is them forcing you to open the app and
| manually trigger the sync rather than running the sync as a
| listener or during background refresh . They could even add a
| "sync all" button but instead they force you to sync dozens
| of activities (my activities tend to be short + mixed).
|
| I recommend getting ready for on device for your app - all
| apps are heading toward on-device for data & even model
| training.
| folli wrote:
| I find that a bit hard to believe for the more established
| device makers (e.g. Garmin, Polar, Suunto). Their device is
| a watch, if I want to look at analytics, I will need to
| move the data off to the cloud, I don't want to look at
| graphs and maps on a half-inch watchface.
|
| Apple is a special case, because they offer a tightly
| closed ecosystem with watches, phones, laptops...
| marcocampana wrote:
| mmm so entry https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34373206 was
| merged into this one because it was a duplicate. Thing is
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34373206 was #1 on the
| homepage and the merge with this made it disappear from the HN
| homepage. Was this intentional?
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