[HN Gopher] We need a lot more electricians
___________________________________________________________________
We need a lot more electricians
Author : orangebanana1
Score : 192 points
Date : 2023-01-11 15:37 UTC (7 hours ago)
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| EricE wrote:
| You mean decades of telling people if you go into the trades that
| you're a dumb ass has repercussions?
|
| Who could see that coming?
|
| https://www.mikeroweworks.org
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't
| been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-
| compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I
| needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing
| me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical
| work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my
| existing ground wires because they are supposed to be cables
| sheathed in green. The electrician also had to disconnect all of
| the wires from the circuit breaker in order to replace a plastic
| joint and replace it with a galvanized one.
|
| I understand that these regulations exist in the name of safety,
| just be aware that any electrical updates to your home will
| likely involve a lot more work than you initially think.
| Depending on what you are getting done, the inspector may need to
| recheck your entire home. And, you're probably going to scoff at
| a good number of the required changes.
|
| Context Edit: I'm located in Texas, and I ultimately had to have
| the electrical panel replaced entirely because there was a safety
| recall associated with it. Even after the replacement was
| complete the electrician had to come back and redo the wiring
| connections because the inspector said the PVC joint at the top
| of the box had to be metal instead.
|
| When I first saw the estimate I made sure to shop around and to
| get multiple quotes in order to make sure I wasn't being taken
| advantage of. Thankfully, there were a few things I was able to
| remain grandfathered in for.
|
| Update: I now know that "fuse box" is not a synonym for "circuit
| breaker".
| planetafro wrote:
| I feel like some of this should be "grand-fathered" in. Perhaps
| you were a victim of an upsell. Any electricians that can
| verify?
|
| For example, I needed a new fence. I got a few quotes and most
| were DRASTICALLY high priced as they wanted to move my fence to
| comply with current code. An older, more experienced worker had
| no problems with permits and said I was grand-fathered in
| because it was already existing. I even self-checked with the
| city. He was right.
| brodouevencode wrote:
| I think there's some of this in there too. Out-of-code is
| grandfathered in unless you're touching that part of the
| system in most places.
| sokoloff wrote:
| And even if you're touching that part of the system, you
| can usually replace like-for-like without bringing it all
| up to current code, even if the current condition is non-
| compliant, you can generally put it back to the same level
| of non-compliance, even if it's with entirely new parts.
| (I'm not arguing that that's a good idea to elect as a
| property owner, but rather that NEC does not require "you
| touch it, you have to fully modernize it". This will likely
| invite an argument with the AHJ's inspector, if the work is
| subject to inspection.)
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| I made sure to shop around and even asked my neighbors who
| had the same houseplan about the electrical work they had to
| get done in the past. The previous owners had neglected to
| replace some components that had been recalled decades ago,
| so that obligation ultimately fell to me.
|
| I did manage to get a few things grandfathered in, like being
| able to keep a three pronged outlet for the dryer. But
| ultimately I made peace with the fact that the house's
| electrical system was in a neglected state and the fixes
| simply had to be made.
| intrasight wrote:
| Many things are grandfathered. But not all.
|
| Sometimes it'll be at home owners discretion. For example, I
| have a Pushmatic panel. The thing sucks. So even if it's
| grandfathered when I have other work done, I'm still getting
| rid of it ASAP.
| dymk wrote:
| Most things are grandfathered in. In my experience, sometimes
| even if it's not something your inspector should technically
| let pass, they will if it's existing construction and things
| were made no worse than before.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > shop around and to get multiple quotes in order to make sure
| I wasn't being taken advantage of
|
| But you _were_ taken advantage of. It 's just that with the
| level of collusion in North America regarding electrical work
| and plumbing you are not going to be able to avoid it. I've
| seen the weirdest requirements which only a particular person
| with a particular license was able to perform and doing it
| yourself would be an automatic fail on an inspection _even
| though the work was identical_. I 've also had some of these
| people make outright dangerous suggestions because they knew
| how to read their rule book but they didn't actually understand
| enough of what caused the rules to be written in that
| particular way to see when an exception to those rules needed
| to be made (case in point: someone wanted me to ground a 60'
| windmill tower at the house instead of at the base of the
| tower, which in case of a lightning strike would lead the
| lightning into the house).
|
| Really, don't get me started, I've seen way to much of this to
| have anything but really bad memories of electrical inspectors,
| I'm sure there are good ones but I just haven't seen any. What
| I have seen is a bunch of little people with a lot of power to
| inflate costs resulting in no change or improvement.
| brodouevencode wrote:
| Where do you live? In a lot of municipalities any out-of-code
| work can remain unless they are actively touching that part of
| the system. For instance, if you had ungrounded outlets in your
| house, but were just getting a drop for a ceiling fan you
| wouldn't have to install grounds as part of that work. So they
| must have been having to touch all those components anyway.
| zardo wrote:
| > So they must have been having to touch all those components
| anyway.
|
| Or they conveniently misunderstood the regulatory
| requirements.
| brodouevencode wrote:
| Just trying to give benefit of the doubt. I suspect this
| was a tack-on.
| [deleted]
| ilyt wrote:
| If you're mounting EV charger, or heat pump you'd me most
| likely running separate circuit off main box for them.
|
| Which means you have to fix the main box. Which is most
| expensive part to fix.
| bluGill wrote:
| Most of the time the main box is good enough. Fuses are
| still legal. There are a few boxes that are safety hazards,
| but if you have one you should replace it even if not
| planning any other work (some circuit breakers don't trip
| when overloaded!).
| kjax wrote:
| Hello, Federal Pioneer 15A Stab-Lok blue breakers (old
| style, without the holes) here. I can personally confirm
| their potential for not tripping when overloaded, along
| with the smouldering outcome...
| keltor wrote:
| Almost for sure that's what happened to the OP as he was
| having an external disconnect, so the entire panel got
| depowered + likely big lines were run for whatever he needed
| the disconnect for. There's sometime exceptions for Solar now
| that don't require full upgrades, but some cities don't give
| a fuck.
|
| The US is way worst about this than most other places though.
| Here they inspect your insulator, lead-in wires, meter, and
| distribution panel and then ask what if any problems you are
| having (they is the power company) every four years. Mostly
| the electrician/contractor does the work and there's no
| inspection of that.
| mattpallissard wrote:
| > I understand that these regulations exist in the name of
| safety, just be aware that any electrical updates to your home
| will likely involve a lot more work than you initially think.
|
| If it's been without issue for decades it likely will remain so
| if left as is. Once someone modifies it the risk of fire,
| electrocution, etc increases dramatically. That's why it needs
| to be brought into compliance as a general rule.
| londons_explore wrote:
| > likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical
| code.
|
| It frustrates me that every year quite a lot of people are
| killed due to old houses not having whole-building GFCI's.
|
| A GFCI costs only $20 and can be installed inside 10 minutes.
| So it seems crazy to be letting people die...
|
| Yet typically electrical regs require that if an electrician
| installs a GFCI, they bring the whole house up to modern
| standards. Suddenly the $20+10 minute job has turned into a
| $15k and 3 weeks complete rewire. So most people don't have a
| key safety device added. And still every year people die from
| not having one.
| amluto wrote:
| Good luck finding an easy-to-install whole house GFCI in the
| US market.
|
| IMO there _should_ be standardized trip curves so that outlet
| GFCIs can coordinate with branch breaker GFCIs, which can
| coordinate with whole-house or other larger GFCIs, etc.
|
| You really don't want a 5mA GFCI on your house. You _do_ want
| a 5mA GFCI somewhere involved for a regular outlet, though,
| especially if it's anywhere damp or wet.
|
| (And you probably do want a GFCI tripping at a larger leakage
| current on any outdoor circuit. Leakage on crappy outdoor
| wiring is very very common and can go undetected for years.
| And for some reason code allows new outdoor circuits to be
| run in galvanized steel conduit, and there seems to be little
| enforcement of the use of appropriate wire nuts and such
| outdoors. You _can_ buy actual high quality submersible wire
| nuts, and stainless steel outdoor electrical boxes exist (at
| absolutely obscene prices), but they're rare. So even
| nominally very fancy newish buildings do things like using
| regular galvanized steel outlet boxes outdoors by the ocean
| with predictable results.)
|
| (A GFCI outlet does not help at all of your whole outlet box
| floors. A 100mA GFCI upstream would presumably trip very
| quickly.)
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > Good luck finding an easy-to-install whole house GFCI in
| the US market.
|
| Not sure I'd want one, to be honest. There are some devices
| that trip GFCIs and I don't think I'd like my mains to trip
| that easily. I just use GFCI breakers as necessary. And
| certain circuits I go with AFCI instead.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > And certain circuits I go with AFCI instead.
|
| IIRC, in the US, code now requires AFCI pretty much
| everywhere except when GFCI is required.
|
| And AFCI is a bit of a PITA, to the point where
| electricians advise me against adding anything new to
| existing circuits in my house (because then the local
| inspector would require a new AFCI breaker, apparently in
| other areas the inspectors are less picky and would be
| satisfied with an AFCI outlet).
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Last time I had work done, which was about six months
| ago, we didn't have to use AFCI for anything other than
| bedrooms (and maybe others, nothing that applied to the
| four circuits I was having installed though). Maybe a
| very recent change?
|
| I agree on them being a PITA sometimes. They're somewhat
| prone to thinking that electric motors (e.g. fans) are
| trying to start a fire.
| atoav wrote:
| > There are some devices that trip GFCIs
|
| In Germany where I lived for the past decade I have never
| seen a non-faulty device trip a RCB. The ones that
| tripped it hat the full 230V on their metal case.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I've got three examples for ya.
|
| 1. Deep freezers are prone (for reasons unclear to me at
| my level of knowledge) to tripping GFCIs. For this reason
| they're allowed to be on a non-GFCI outlet in the garage
| (must be a single outlet receptacle by itself on the
| circuit).
|
| 2. Downstream GFCIs are prone to messing with upstream
| GFCIs, so you should not put them in series. My RV has
| it's own power distribution panel with GFCI, so it gets
| plugged into a dedicated TT-30 RV outlet without GFCI
| protection.
|
| 3. My Tesla doesn't like GFCIs at all. It does a brief
| ground check before charging and trips the outlet. Known
| issue, solution is to find an outlet that isn't protected
| by a GFCI. In a pinch, when I was renting my first Tesla
| from Turo I stole the freezer outlet in the garage for a
| few hours at a time to charge the car. When I bought my
| own Tesla, I put in level 2 of course, problem solved.
|
| I'm all for GFCIs on individual circuits, that makes
| total sense. Just not on the mains.
| [deleted]
| anikom15 wrote:
| Which country? In the U.S., GFCIs only need to be installed
| in specific locations, which is good. I do not want my
| refrigerator or computer on a GFCI.
|
| In the U.K., you just can't have plugs in bathrooms (aside
| from the shaver plug), which is probably more sensible.
| londons_explore wrote:
| They only _need_ to be installed in specific places... But
| they _ought_ to be installed for the whole house.
|
| You _do_ want your refrigerator on one. What when your mom
| is putting a metal saucepan into the fridge of leftovers,
| knocks and smashes the lamp inside, and the AC lamp power
| supply kills her though the metal saucepan?
|
| What when a baby puts a fork into an electrical outlet in
| the living room?
|
| What when floodwater comes in and kills everyone on the
| ground floor of your house while you are frantically wading
| in the water trying to move furniture upstairs?
|
| There are plenty of times you want a whole house GFCI.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| > You do want your refrigerator on one. What when your
| mom is putting a metal saucepan into the fridge of
| leftovers, knocks and smashes the lamp inside, and the AC
| lamp power supply kills her though the metal saucepan?
|
| Your fridge scenario is.. fantasy. What is the path to
| ground? There isn't one.. you can hold onto a live phase
| conductor all day and not get shocked if the circuit
| isn't completed.
|
| Refrigerator only needs a GFI if it is within a certain
| distance of a sink.
|
| > What when a baby puts a fork into an electrical outlet
| in the living room?
|
| The NEC requires tamper-resistant receptacles in all
| dwelling units.
|
| Also re: flooding and GFIs, all basement receptacles need
| GFI protection due to flood risk.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Yes, the pan would complete the circuit. Not to mention
| the whole scenario being extremely unlikely.
| jly wrote:
| > Refrigerator only needs a GFI if it is within a certain
| distance of a sink.
|
| Not anymore. NEC 2023 requires GFCI for every 120 or 240V
| outlets in the kitchen, regardless of their location or
| proximity to the sink. This was a big change.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I have twice lost a fridge full of food due to spurious
| GFCI trips, once when I was a recent graduate and it was
| a painful experience financially.
|
| I now make sure my fridge/freezer is NOT on a GFCI. I'll
| take my chances of getting a 120VAC shock from my fridge
| [which is attention-getting, but very unlikely to be
| injurious].
| saluki wrote:
| Check out the YoLink temperature sensors on Amazon. They
| are amazing for monitoring our secondary freezer. All
| their sensors have been great. Temp for fridge/freezers,
| leak detectors, temp+humidity for basement, they have a
| motion sensor that is a magnet you can place in the back
| of your mailbox if you want to know when mail is
| delivered. Their door sensor can be installed on overhead
| garage doors by a magnet and a velcro strip for the part
| that goes on the wall. They also have a 1/4 mile range
| and the sensor can be inside your fridge/freezer and
| still connect. App is great, no monthly fee, you get
| notifications on your phone you can also get a small
| number of SMS messages for free. All notifications/limits
| are configurable.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Also funny how fridges are required to have their own
| circuit, but newer fridges are increasingly vfd/inverter
| drive, and don't have surge power draws anymore. They use
| a few hundred watts continuously and that's it.
|
| I'd be more quickly to find out my fridge died if the
| lights in the kitchen stopped working.
|
| Not sure why fridges don't just have a battery-powered
| alarm that goes off when the temperature gets too high
| for too long.
| crgwbr wrote:
| What kind of fridge do you have that draws several
| hundred watts continuously? I haven't tested my fridge,
| but I have a very large chest freezer that never draws
| more than ~35W. Surely a fridge can't be 10x worse than
| that.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I seriously doubt that your freezer max draw is 35W. An
| Energy Star freezer can only average ~25W across the
| entire year. I doubt that the peak is less than 1.4x the
| average draw.
|
| A fridge max power draw is usually during the defrost
| cycle. My defrost heater measures a bit over 500W.
| brianwawok wrote:
| I have a lot of power surges in my area. Recently, the
| old power shut off, then power back on in 3 seconds thing
| happened - and the surge was enough to pop my fridge
| motors and cause a $900 repair.
|
| I upgraded them to not only a surge protector, but this
| little neat shut off device. It's a device that goes
| between the fridge and the wall outlet, and basically if
| for any reason this device loses power - it shuts off the
| power to the powered device for a minimum of 3 minutes.
| This way the power can blink 100 times in 3 minutes, and
| my fridge won't have to eat 100 surges. It will just
| happily sit off for 3 minutes, and then come back on.
| armen52 wrote:
| Can you share what device you're using for the 3-minute
| shut-off and recovery?
| brianwawok wrote:
| I have this guy
|
| https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D7KP8S4
|
| But am not partial to this brand or anything. But it
| seems to do what it says it will do.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| A whole house GFCI would ruin all the food in my
| refrigerator several times a year.
| anikom15 wrote:
| My mom doesn't live with me (the bulb inside the fridge
| is LED anyway), I don't have a baby (babies don't carry
| metal forks), and I live on the second floor (but the
| power would be out long before the first floor floods).
|
| I don't want whole house GFCI.
| abakker wrote:
| I agree that over-zealous GFCI is annoying. BUT, as a new
| parent, I can assure you that babies will _manifest_
| dangerous objects and do dangerous things.
| dionidium wrote:
| > _I don't have a baby (babies don't carry metal forks)_
|
| Your second claim could only be made by somebody for whom
| the first statement is true.
| bityard wrote:
| Let know when GFCIs and AFCIs are robust enough against
| spurious tripping and I will readily install them
| everywhere.
|
| GFCIs are notorious for tripping on certain appliances
| like refrigerators and freezers, and can trip due to RFI
| from other devices in the house.
|
| AFCIs do not like anything with a brushed motor,
| especially power tools and sufficiently large vacuums.
|
| I have personally experienced all of these just in the
| last couple years.
| londons_explore wrote:
| European GFCI's are 30mA, and don't false trip. US GFCI's
| are 5mA, and frequenty false trip.
|
| lots of info here[1]
|
| TL;DR: The US regulations prevent small electrical faults
| into things like swimming pools from causing people to
| drown. The european regulations will stop you getting
| killed by electricity directly, but won't stop you
| drowning if you happen to be in a pool while touching
| some wiring.
|
| [1]: https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/218700/why-
| are-usa-c...
| Freak_NL wrote:
| This thread is really baffling to this Dutchman. All
| houses have a house-wide residual-current device here; it
| is not a topic for debate at all. And indeed, these don't
| false trip.
|
| US electrical wiring always weirds me out. Cables run
| through walls without pulling them through hard plastic
| conduits and sockets that look like something designed
| seventy years ago. It's probably a matter of perspective,
| but it seems like such a completely different approach.
| tibbon wrote:
| You need a AFCI in _most_ places now. In the 2020 edition
| of the NEC(r), Section 210.12 requires that for dwelling
| units, all 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch
| circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling
| unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms,
| parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
| rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms
| or areas shall be protected by AFCIs.
|
| The latest National Electrical Code requires both AFCI and
| GFCI protection only in kitchens and laundry rooms, but if
| you're already doing AFCI, why not do it all everywhere as
| it is clearly to be required at some point
|
| Main downside is they are expensive. I've recently
| installed a new 24-slot subpanel and I'm using them
| everywhere required. At $50 a pop, that's a quick $1200.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "At $50 a pop, that's a quick $1200."
|
| See, this is the part I hate. I bet someone patented the
| design, then the NEC made it mandatory, and now they just
| rake in the money on something that likely costs <$10 to
| make. If something is legally mandatory, it should not be
| patented.
| xxpor wrote:
| Looks like you're not wrong:
| https://patents.google.com/patent/US9577420B2/en
| amluto wrote:
| There are other downsides. For example, actually finding
| a two-pole or AFCI breaker or, worse, a combination
| AFCI/GFCI breaker is not so easy.
| Wohlf wrote:
| I recently installed some new circuits and was able to
| find them, but strangely it was $20 or more per circuit
| cheaper to get an AFCI/GFCI outlet and a regular breaker
| instead of combo breakers.
| abakker wrote:
| it is nearly impossible, IME. Good luck finding AFCI
| 20amp 2 poles for doing shared neutral 120v circuits on a
| 14/3 wire.
| polski-g wrote:
| AFCI trips on the smallest thing. Turning on my blender
| or microwave tripped it. I ended up downgrading to just
| GFCI in frustration.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Some countries you have a single one for the whole
| building, rather than one per circuit.
|
| That dramatically lowers the cost.
|
| The only real downside is that if you accidentally put
| your finger in the toaster, rather than just the power to
| your kitchen cutting off, the power to the whole house
| cuts off. I think thats a fine tradeoff to save $1200.
| chaosite wrote:
| Well, if the power shuts off and that saves me from
| electrocuting myself, I couldn't care less how much of
| the rest of the house lost power.
|
| The annoying part is when I plug in some faulty device
| that is not immediately dangerous and that shuts down
| power to the whole house.
| techie128 wrote:
| > The annoying part is when I plug in some faulty device
| that is not immediately dangerous
|
| Do you mind, re-reading that statement? I don't even
| understand that argument. You should not be plugging in
| _faulty_ devices in the first place...
| jrockway wrote:
| I guess you don't know if it's faulty until you try to
| use it. Manufacturing defects are a thing, but kind of a
| once every 30 years type thing, so maybe not a big deal
| to worry about. The reason you install circuit breakers
| and AFCIs is to avoid a fire in these cases; rare, but
| worthwhile to avoid.
| Spivak wrote:
| Also because plugging in faulty devices into outlets is
| something that ought to be safe. Because with probability
| 1 it will happen in every house. If the way the house is
| wired makes the only safe action to shut everything off
| that's the problem and shitty wiring.
| abakker wrote:
| real downside: many things work poorly on gfci stuff.
| E.g. A miter saw or welder. I had AFCI/GFCI breakers in
| my garage per code, but essentially no power tools work
| with those kinds of circuits.
| UI_at_80x24 wrote:
| I've noticed the same thing with a cheap lemon juicer in
| the kitchen. I'm assuming the brushes on the DC motor are
| the cause.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Some OS's have a single task for the whole computer,
| rather than one per application.
|
| The only real downside is that if your app accidentally
| dereferences NULL, rather than just your application
| crashing, the whole computer crashes.
|
| ... Sorry, somehow reminded me of the early days of the
| Macintosh's OS before it was "true multitasking" (as the
| Amiga kids would love to tell us).
| wlesieutre wrote:
| The bigger downside is nuisance tripping because the
| breaker doesn't like electrical noise emitted by some
| device or another in your house. I don't have any AFCIs
| but I've heard it's pretty common.
|
| You'd rather have one circuit go out instead of the whole
| house, and if all you have is the one AFCI breaker you're
| going to have a much harder time identifying what
| device(s) is the culprit.
| mcbishop wrote:
| This nuisance tripping is the bane of my electrician
| friend's professional life.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| And god forbid you use anything with a brushed motor,
| which has sparks in its normal operation
| Spivak wrote:
| "Oh just err on the site of extremely cautious and
| sensitive. More safety can't be a bad thing."
| tibbon wrote:
| I've _mostly_ used them on new circuits, but have put
| them on a few of my older circuits too. For my small
| sample size, I 've yet to have one nuisance trip.
| mturmon wrote:
| Not an electrician, but an observer of tradespeople at
| r/electricians.
|
| There are definitely bad feelings about these AFCI
| breakers. The feeling is that the code mandate for AFCI
| got out front of the reliability of actually-produced
| AFCI's, and actually-in-use products like blenders that
| may have small "arcing". This results in expensive call-
| backs from unhappy customers who are getting nuisance
| trips.
| samsa wrote:
| Michigan is an exception. No AFCI required.
| anikom15 wrote:
| Don't even get me started on AFCIs. At least the behavior
| of GFCIs is well-defined.
|
| The AFCI thing is a money grab.
| jxramos wrote:
| why's that, is there some guarantee they fail to live up
| to? Is there something probabilistic to them or
| something?
| londons_explore wrote:
| AFCI's are of dubious effectiveness at their purpose
| (preventing fires). They're kinda snake oil because each
| manufacturer won't tell you under what exact conditions
| they'll trip. Somehow the law in the USA now requires
| them on every circuit, although they aren't used at all
| in Europe (which has a higher voltage yet far fewer
| electrical deaths).
| 13of40 wrote:
| FWIW, Google says 540 electrical deaths per year in
| Europe vs. 200 per year in the USA. Whether that's from
| lower voltage or more GFCI is anyone's guess.
| champtar wrote:
| Europe is many different countries with different
| electric code
| xxpor wrote:
| AFCIs aren't meant to protect against electrocution, just
| sparking which leads to a fire.
| jly wrote:
| I'm not sure where you are getting this.
|
| According to the CPSC, who analyzed some 10s of thousands
| of fires, something like 50% of them were caused by wire
| arcing that could be prevented with AFCI breakers. This
| is the exact reason why the NFPA is moving the NEC
| towards eventually requiring AFCI on every circuit in the
| house.
| Avamander wrote:
| They highlight bad appliance design especially hard,
| while also being somewhat difficult to pinpoint due to
| the design of many electrical systems.
|
| Arc detection is also basically somewhat complex RF
| processing, so there are multiple approaches to it and
| implementations vary.
|
| Plus (detected) arcs are common with for example brushed
| motors.
|
| Maybe there's something else the person you replied to
| would like to highlight, but I wouldn't call them a money
| grab, just made difficult due to some past choices.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| GFCIs have a simple and well defined function. What is
| the current through one lead? What is the current through
| the other lead? Do they differ by more than x amount? If
| so, trip.
|
| AFCIs are a whole different thing - the plug is trying to
| predict when arcing is happening somewhere downstream of
| it and it has very little in the way of 'processing'
| power to do it, so generally there is a classical filter
| that is designed to detect the characteristic harmonics
| of the current waveform that are inherent to an arcing
| condition. When you experience a sharp upward or downward
| step in power draw you introduce harmonics, when you have
| capacitive coupling between SMPS you introduce harmonics,
| motors often introduce harmonics, etc.
|
| There's like a zillion things that can create AFCI trip
| conditions and cause spurious trips and frustration for
| users, and there's very few documented cases of them
| doing the thing they're supposed to do. I think it's a
| case of someone being well intentioned but releasing
| regulatory guidance to use a product that isn't quite
| there in terms of technology maturity.
| simeonf wrote:
| Agreed on AFCI circuit breakers! They are now mandatory
| for all 15-20 amp light and plug circuits on new
| construction where I live - although breakers for large
| appliances do not require them. But I have several
| portable tools (eg a carpet cleaner) which will make an
| AFCI breaker trip every time. AFCI circuit breakers seem
| to be more fragile (read the box: much smaller range of
| acceptable heat and limited number of duty cycles) - I
| apparently killed one just by tripping it repeatedly. And
| while a regular 15 amp breaker is a few bucks, the CAFCI
| breaker I'm supposed to use is $45...
| StrictDabbler wrote:
| AFCIs are just The Man trying to stop us running Tesla
| coils.
| traceroute66 wrote:
| > In the U.K., you just can't have plugs in bathrooms
| (aside from the shaver plug),
|
| Disclaimer: I'm _not_ an electrician
|
| My understanding is that is not entirely technically
| correct.
|
| You _can_ have standard sockets in bathrooms in the UK.
|
| But, and it's a big _BUT_ , 99.999% of bathrooms in the UK
| are not big enough to be able to place the socket 3m away
| from the relevant wet "zone" (shower and/or bath and/or
| sink, IIRC).
|
| However, IIRC, shaver sockets are OK, as are spurs.
| Irrespective of bathroom size.
| CorrectHorseBat wrote:
| > I do not want my refrigerator or computer on a GFCI
|
| Why not? Here in Belgium they are required everywhere and
| that works just fine.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Whole-house GFCIs are far less sensitive than the GFCIs
| built right into the receptacle.
| CorrectHorseBat wrote:
| That does not explain why you wouldn't want a GFCI? It's
| not like you can't chain them.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Because they trip much more easily, and they are sinply
| not needed all the time. Plugging a motorized
| refrigerator full of perishable food to a GFCI receptacle
| is a bad idea.
|
| I used to work on residential construction jobsites and
| the only power on-site would be a pair of GFCI duplex
| receptacles in the basement beside the panel. Tripping
| the actual overload breaker was rare (and usually only
| happened when multiple people were running off a single
| extension cord), but the damn GFCI breakers on the
| receptacles themselves tripped all the time, particularly
| when the table saw was running at full tilt for 20
| minutes straight. They're just too sensitive for certain
| applications. Now, you can buy combined overload/GFCI
| circuit breakers for in the panel, but they're
| ridiculously overpriced so no one uses them, and they're
| probably just as sensitive.
| iso1631 wrote:
| My understanding is a GFCI is an American term for an RCD
| or an RCBO?
|
| My (UK) fridge is on a standard 30A breaker which itself
| comes off a single 80A/30mA RCD which was presumably part
| of the regs at one point. It's never tripped. All the RCBOs
| I've seen are 30mA too.
|
| (I have some sockets on a 10A breaker downstream of this
| which have tripped - the house needs a total rewire, total
| bunch of bodge jobs from the previous owner, including a
| 13A socket in the bathroom)
|
| Does a GFCI typically have a lower trip that 30mA?
| londons_explore wrote:
| Yes. USA GFCI's are like RCD's, but trip at 5mA. Thats
| why they false trip pretty often.
| nemo44x wrote:
| It's funny, In was doing a huge renovation once and during
| the work my refrigerator had to be plugged into another
| outlet that happened to be GFCI. We had to be very mindful
| about making sure power was flowing. Sometimes, certain
| combinations of things being on at the same time would trip
| it. It was an old house with only 100A service and who
| knows what with the wiring.
| Johnny555 wrote:
| _It frustrates me that every year quite a lot of people are
| killed due to old houses not having whole-building GFCI 's_
|
| A whole building GFCI sounds like a bad idea, throwing the
| entire house into darkness as well as cutting off the
| refrigerator and HVAC because a contractor plugged in a damp
| power tool in an outside outlet sounds like a bad idea. Worse
| if you were out of town when it happened.
| toss1 wrote:
| THIS!
|
| Whole building GFCI - that is just nuts!
|
| There are many ordinary motors that will leak just a bit to
| ground, enough to trip the GFCI, but no hazard exists --
| this would mean disabling the whole building, computers,
| refrigeration, water pumping, etc. just turning on that
| device. I've actually got one in a treadmill, and also a
| wood router tool - they trip the garage GFCI every time. At
| first I was concerned and "what's wrong with these
| things?". but as far as I could read, there is no issue,
| just an issue with certain types of motors that is no
| hazard, but a basic incompatibility.
|
| And yes, being able to kill the entire power to the house
| merely by plugging a device into one of the outside outlets
| would be an insane vulnerability, not just by the
| contractor's accident you mentioned, but also by deliberate
| action - great way to start a burglary or home invasion,
| don't even need to find a wire to cut.
|
| Yikes!
| ilyt wrote:
| There is a good chance that if you installed GFCI in some old
| house it would just... trip due to shitty wiring.
|
| But yeah, the law should probably have exception for
| installing safety devices, it's better to have some than zero
| because someone can't afford it.
| DaveExeter wrote:
| >There is a good chance that if you installed GFCI in some
| old house it would just... trip due to shitty wiring.
|
| No, that's not true!
|
| A GFCI measures the current going in and the current going
| out and if they are not equal it trips.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Some old houses have exposed wiring in damp places, so
| there really is electricity leaking all the time. Theres
| probably some wire with paper insulation touching a plant
| root under the house, slowly steaming away.
|
| OP is correct that in this case a GFCI would trip all the
| time.
|
| But on the other hand, GFCI leaks are fairly easy to
| track down and fix, especially with the right equipment.
| cduzz wrote:
| Doesn't that count as a feature not a bug?
|
| If I install an GFCI/AFCI on a branch and it starts
| tripping and I look and find that there's some iffy
| wiring, that seems like a problem averted.
|
| If I install these on a branch, decide that because it's
| not a problem (because the old breaker never tripped) I'm
| just ignoring the problem.
|
| People ignore problems all the time and aren't always
| caught out, but sometimes "rely on good luck" runs into
| bad luck and bad things happen.
| champtar wrote:
| 100% agree, if it trip something need to be fixed, that's
| as simple as that.
| ontarionick wrote:
| The Swiss cheese model and the normalization of deviance!
| shawabawa3 wrote:
| I had a GFCI installed in my 1930s built house the other
| week
|
| The circuit repeatedly tripped, so the electrician
| uninstalled it. To install the GFCI he would need to
| spend 1-2 days splitting circuits to find the leak(s) so
| instead of ~$40 + 1 hours labour it's potentially
| thousands of dollars
| jacquesm wrote:
| That might still be worth tracing, you may have a fire
| risk or a risk of electrocution on your hand there. It
| _really_ shouldn 't happen. Those things are typically 30
| or 50 mA and that's a lot of heat (12W worth) at 240V.
| atoav wrote:
| Yep, that means somewhere there is current flowing
| through some pipe, some wall, something. And that is bad.
| 30mA is not much of a threshold, but it has been chosen
| because currents above that (or currents that flow longer
| than the 0,03s it should take maximum to trip an RCD will
| _kill_ people. Not to speak of fire hazards.
|
| So, somewhere you have a thing, that could kill you, a
| firend, a loved one or whomever. And you decide to ignore
| it because money. Where I live, if something would happen
| this could land you in prison.
| amelius wrote:
| > No, that's not true!
|
| What if the return current goes through a different wire
| that was used as a quick fix for some wiring problem
| someone ran into 50 years ago?
| jacquesm wrote:
| That is potentially quite dangerous, especially if that
| different wire is sitting on a different breaker.
| atoav wrote:
| There is a good chance that smoke detectors peep if random
| small fires break out in your house regularily.
|
| There is also a good reason why you would like to know.
|
| A tripping RCD is annoying, but not as annoying as dying
| from electrical shock and hurt all the way till you are
| dead because, guess what, you don't have a device that
| switches off the circuit if current flows where it should
| not.
|
| Ah, and it could also kill your friend and make you liable
| for life. It could start a fire and ruin your whole
| existance. But yeah duh, so annoying.
|
| Seriously, get an RCD. If it trips find out which part of
| your house sinks current into the environment in potential
| "he was killed in his sleep"-fashion.
|
| Where I live RCDs are mandatory in _every_ electrical
| installation.
| squokko wrote:
| If it would just trip, then the house wiring is a hazard! I
| suppose you can choose to live in it but if at all possible
| you should not.
| bluGill wrote:
| There is no way a pro can install a GFCI for less than $150
| in the ideal case where everything else is up to code.
| Anything non ideal adds cost. While there isn't much labor,
| you also have to count the time to get from the last job to
| yours, and other overhead.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| I'm guessing he was talking about DIY. It's not really that
| hard, I did it in the 3 circuits in my garage. I'm no pro,
| although I'm fairly knowledgeable in electronics and
| electricity.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Even pro, if done with a government scheme.
|
| If you have one guy spending 10 mins in every house on a
| street, he can probably fit GFCI's to 40 houses in a day.
| But that's only possible if it's a government/power
| company scheme. Installation could be even quicker and
| cheaper if it's installed internal to the electricity
| meter by the power company, and then you don't even need
| the homeowner home to do it.
|
| Power companies have an incentive to add GFCI's, because
| ground leakage costs them real money, and those power
| flows are only 50% measured by the power meter (depending
| on the meter design). A 100 milliamp leak at 230 volts
| costs ~$30/yr or so.
| dboreham wrote:
| In my experience when you get some competent pro on your
| site to do anything, it's minimum $1K.
| t-writescode wrote:
| While potentially true, this does not speak to the biggest
| part of their statement, which was that a predicted small
| cost project becomes an enormous cost project so regularly
| to the point that the smaller cost projects are altogether
| ignored, to the detriment of all.
|
| $150, $1000, all of these are smaller than $15,000. One is
| a surprise laptop breaking and needing replace. The other
| is a surprise car purchase and cash purchase.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| I hate the damn things. If a breaker pops, it's easy. You
| have a box, maybe two if you live in a really huge house. Go
| there, look for the switch that's not quite lined up, toggle
| switch, done.
|
| GFCI, you gotta figure out which one popped. If the wiring's
| not great, it may well be in a totally different room from
| the outlet that stopped working. On top of it, they seem to
| outright fail (get stuck in a broken state, start tripping
| under even very light load, simply stop working at all) much
| faster than breaker-box switches (I'm... actually not sure
| I've _ever_ seen one of those fail? I 've had several GFCI
| outlets fail, across multiple houses).
|
| I get why they're good to have, but they're really annoying.
| And expensive.
| metadat wrote:
| What are you talking about? GFCIs are integrated into the
| outlet. Did you mean something about chaining GFCI plug
| wiring? If it's even possible, such a wiring configuration
| seems like an obvious building code safety violation.
|
| For example:
|
| https://cdn.vox-
| cdn.com/thumbor/oGJ0LxRFZ9FNcRtpABAlXPnUApM=...
|
| Edit 1: If you're in Europe, my apologies - I have no
| experience with the wiring outside of the US. It sounds
| genuinely annoying and a bad user experience indeed.
|
| Edit 2: Thank you all for your replies!
| dionidium wrote:
| Every GFCI outlet has a line side and a load side
| designed specifically for protecting additional
| downstream outlets. it's perfectly safe and legal (and a
| great way to protect multiple outlets, especially in
| older houses with ungrounded outlets).
|
| What OP is saying is that one of those downstream outlets
| can trip the GFCI and if you don't know which GFCI it
| tripped, then you have to go looking.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| Right, that. And it's not like they're intolerable or
| anything, but they do represent a pretty high percentage
| of the time I spend messing with my house's electrical
| system. It's probably light bulbs (I swear, all but the
| crazy-expensive LED bulbs are blatantly lying about their
| lifespan, like by a literal order of magnitude) then GFCI
| stuff after that.
| jacquesm wrote:
| In the UK, yes, in lots of other parts of the world they
| are integrated into the circuit breakers.
| metadat wrote:
| Would this be a regular circuit breaker fuse? Otherwise
| what's different?
| jacquesm wrote:
| If single phase you'll notice sometimes it has a little
| extra ground wire connected (now mostly obsolete), for 3
| phase it doesn't, in both cases it will say so on the
| outside (typically: the test current, and usually there
| is a test button which makes them easy to identify, this
| test button forces a small leak causing the circuit to
| become unbalanced resulting in a trip (if it doesn't trip
| when the test button is pressed the breaker is considered
| faulty and should be replaced).
|
| For instance, here is an 'Eaton' 3 phase breaker with
| integrated ground fault protection circuitry:
|
| https://www.omnical.co/products/eaton/1742431/2259595
|
| Note the little yellow 'test' button. That's a 30 mA
| fault current device, you can have higher permissible
| fault currents for certain gear that tends to be a bit
| more leaky which would otherwise cause nuisance trips.
| These little things are quite the work of art inside, if
| you ever have a faulty one I would encourage you to pick
| it apart to see what makes it tick.
| antonjs wrote:
| Circuit breakers trip when there's too much current going
| through the circuit (enough to melt the wiring for
| example), and so protect from short-circuits: hot and
| neutral touching each other, or a short in equipment.
|
| GFCIs protect against current leaking to ground, by
| detecting if the current flowing on a hot and neutral leg
| are different. If they're different, the current must be
| going somewhere else: to ground, through you, etc. The
| GFCI breakers do this in the breaker, the outlets do it
| at the outlet. As someone else mentioned, you can also
| have other non-GFCI outlets chained to a GFCI outlet, so
| that upstream outlet is the one that pops if there's a
| fault.
|
| TL;DR they detect and protect against different fault
| conditions.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| Circuit breaker versus GFCI outlets (which also have
| breakers). I find the former far more convenient--I know
| they don't serve the same purpose, but the way one
| interacts with them is similar, except that the GFCIs are
| scattered all over the place and may require moving
| things to find.
|
| > If it's even possible, such a wiring configuration
| seems like an obvious building code safety violation.
|
| Norm in every house I've lived in in the US (except one
| so old it had knob-and-tube wiring... hahaha) is one GFCI
| for a set of outlets. Like, if you have a long vanity in
| a largish bathroom, you might end up with two or three
| outlets, one GFCI, the others following after it so they
| trip it, too. The only times I've seen a single one used
| with nothing hanging off it is when it's the only outlet
| in the room, or for under-sink outlets for dishwashers
| and disposals to plug into. This can turn into a real
| mess if anyone got "creative" with wiring at any point.
| We've had a garage GFCI kill a couple outlets in the
| house proper (in a nearby laundry room, not _super_
| distant), plus an outdoor outlet probably 30 feet away,
| all of which were evidently attached to it.
| [deleted]
| jacquesm wrote:
| Ground fault interrupters are life savers. The minor
| overhead of figuring out the cause is well worth the price
| of admission: without them you might not be around to
| figure anything out.
|
| In the UK, where ground fault interrupters can be part of
| the sockets it can be hassle, but then again that is
| strictly optional: in most other countries the ground fault
| interrupters are always integrated into the circuit breaker
| at the distribution panel. The upside of that it is that it
| _also_ protects the wiring.
| OJFord wrote:
| > In the UK, where ground fault interrupters are part of
| the sockets it can be hassle
|
| Did you mean US? I've never seen that, and searching
| 'ground fault interrupter UK' images all look like US
| sockets.
|
| They're usually called RCDs (Residual Current Devices) in
| the UK, and they're fitted in the Consumer Unit.
| jacquesm wrote:
| No, I meant the UK, for instance:
|
| https://internationalconfig.com/icc6.asp?item=72300-S-10M
| A
|
| or
|
| https://www.screwfix.com/p/british-
| general-900-series-13a-2-...
|
| It's the only place where I have seen these.
| OJFord wrote:
| Wow ok, I've never seen that in the wild. RCDs are
| required on all circuits including lighting in the
| current regs (i.e. old installations can not have them
| and be compliant, but they have been required and socket
| circuits for a long time; bathroom & outdoor lighting for
| less; all lighting more recently). Maybe these sockets
| are for when you have no more room in the panel and don't
| want to replace it, but need it upgraded due to other
| work or to pass an EICR to let the property? Not sure.
|
| Example US looking one I was seeing: https://i5.walmartim
| ages.com/asr/e9c29ec0-5eeb-40c3-8cde-e2f...
|
| I suppose Earthed sockets are less common there anyway
| right, so that limits how common these could possibly be.
| jacquesm wrote:
| The lack of grounded sockets in the US has always been a
| complete mystery to me. Especially for kitchen
| appliances.
| Domenic_S wrote:
| Grounded outlets became code for kitchens and baths in
| 1961, although it wasn't _that_ uncommon to see in '50s
| new construction. 1971 code started requiring them
| throughout the house.
| scrlk wrote:
| The university halls that I lived in had those RCD
| sockets installed. The halls dated back to the early 60s
| - the sockets + Ethernet were installed in perimeter
| trunking. I suspect it was the cheapest option available
| to the university to modernise the electrical
| infrastructure inside the halls.
| davidcuddeback wrote:
| > _If a breaker pops, it 's easy. You have a box, maybe two
| if you live in a really huge house. Go there, look for the
| switch that's not quite lined up, toggle switch, done._
|
| FWIW, you can have the same thing with GFCIs. I recently
| wired my garage for woodworking and installed all GFCI
| breakers in the breaker box, so a GFCI trip is just like a
| regular breaker trip (not that either of those has happened
| with the new circuits). The GFCI breakers cost about $50/ea
| [1] and protect the whole circuit.
|
| > _GFCI, you gotta figure out which one popped. If the
| wiring 's not great, it may well be in a totally different
| room from the outlet that stopped working._
|
| I once couldn't operate my garage door for a few days.
| There were no tripped breakers in the box. Eventually, it
| dawned on me that the circuit was labeled "GFCI" so maybe I
| should go check the GFCIs in the house, and I found that
| the GFCI in the upstairs bathroom had tripped. The upstairs
| GFCI is nowhere near the garage (and in the opposite
| direction from the breaker box). Since then, I've talked to
| several people in the area whose houses are wired the same
| way. I guess GFCIs must have been _really_ expensive in the
| 80s, when these houses were built.
|
| The moral of this story is that GFCI breakers can save a
| lot of headache. (Plus, those GFCI outlets are kinda ugly
| IMO).
|
| [1]: I see they're about $60/ea now:
| https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-20-Amp-
| Single-...
| DannyBee wrote:
| This depends entirely on their code cycle.
|
| Those that keep up actually don't have much issue as it's
| gradual.
|
| Current breakdown is:
|
| 25 states - 2020+ NEC
|
| 17 states - 2017 NEC
|
| 2 states - 2014 NEC
|
| 2 states - 2008 NEC
|
| 8 states - Very local
|
| Some of them take 5+ years to update the NEC. Virginia adopted
| the 2017 NEC in late 2021.
|
| When that happens, upgrades can be costly.
|
| Though most major changes around AFCI/GFCI usage, pipe types,
| etc to NEC happened in the 2014/2017 code cycle.
|
| So there were definitely some code cycles that were "extra bad"
| in this sense.
| jonesdc wrote:
| How did you go about searching for an electrician who you
| trusted? Any particular sources or just calling locally?
|
| I'm looking to get some new cabling placed since I can't
| navigate within the walls
| Johnny555 wrote:
| How much code compliance you need to do depends on the work
| being done and your local inspector.
|
| I replaced a panel that was rusted out (there was literally a
| hole rusted through in the back due to water intrusion in the
| wall) in a house that was built in the 1940's, re-wired with
| circuit breakers sometime in the 80's.
|
| The electrician said I didn't need to replace any breakers,
| just the panel. I asked the local inspector if I had to put
| AFCI's and GFCI's everywhere required by modern code, he
| confirmed that it was highly recommended, but not strictly
| required for existing circuits, only for new circuits. I also
| didn't need to install a cutoff before the panel.
|
| Since I was buying new breakers anyway, I ended up putting
| AFCI/GFCI's as required by code.
| cgh wrote:
| Our house was built in 1973 and still has aluminum wiring and a
| 100A fuse box. So I feel your pain.
| Animats wrote:
| > Even after the replacement was complete the electrician had
| to come back and redo the wiring connections because the
| inspector said the PVC joint at the top of the box had to be
| metal instead.
|
| Right. There must be a reliable metallic path to ground.
|
| This is a big problem with PVC pipe retrofits. In older houses,
| plumbing and conduit are metal and good grounds, and grounding
| to plumbing used to be permitted. Once PVC pipe came in, you
| have to assume that no pipe is grounded, and you need extra
| ground wires and stakes. This can happen due to a plumbing
| repair. Otherwise, a short to "ground" can energize the
| structure's entire water system.
|
| In the original article, if your house doesn't have three-prong
| outlets, it's time for an full upgrade. You're at least half a
| century behind.
|
| As for training new electricians, "In the past, Reyes recruited
| workers out of high school and trained them. But he's reluctant
| to do it again. It costs his technicians time, it costs him
| money, and there's no guarantee that the people he invests in
| will stick around because the job market is so competitive."
| Well, welcome to the free market. Maybe you have to pay more.
|
| There are International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
| apprenticeship programs not mentioned in the article. Here's
| Local 6, San Francisco.[1] They require high school graduation,
| a grade of C or better in algebra and trigonometry, and drug
| testing to become an apprentice. The apprenticeship is three
| years.
|
| "Grid Alternatives partners with local organizations, like
| Homeboy Industries, a gang-intervention program, to introduce
| former inmates as well as other underrepresented people, to
| careers in solar. Those admitted to Grid's training receive
| "wraparound supportive services" that address barriers they
| might have to participating, such as helping them get driver's
| licenses, open bank accounts, or, for those formerly
| incarcerated, find attorneys." That may be starting too far
| down the food chain.
|
| "But this past year, Laney's program almost fell apart after
| one of its teachers, Forough Hashemi, announced she would be
| retiring at the end of the spring 2022 semester. Hashemi had
| been teaching six classes each semester, essentially holding
| the program together".
|
| Laney College seems rather disorganized. Their web site says
| "Fall Classes Start August 24, 2020 - Enroll Now!". If their
| idea of recruiting is "we sent some letters and nobody
| responded", that's the college's problem.
|
| [1] https://ibew6.org/
| repiret wrote:
| > ... and grounding to plumbing used to be permitted
|
| Do you have a citation for this?
|
| I was under the impression that using plumbing as equipment
| ground was never allowed, but that conductive plumbing has
| required to be bonded to ground for some time. I was further
| under the impression that by code, plumbing repairs couldn't
| leave behind unbonded sections of conductive plumbing.
| Animats wrote:
| > ... and grounding to plumbing used to be permitted > > Do
| you have a citation for this?
|
| You could look it up yourself. It's not hard.
|
| Here's a guide to the 1981 National Electrical Code. See
| page 297. section 250-23, grounding for alternating current
| systems:
|
| "grounding electrode conductor ... which runs to building
| steel and/or water pipe or driven ground rod".
|
| Page 299, "water pipe and/or other suitable electrode" as
| grounding point for neutral.
|
| Page 365, section 250-81 goes into water pipes as ground in
| more detail. It usually can't be the only ground. That's in
| 250-81(a). But back then, there was an assumption that
| water pipes were a path to ground.
|
| By 2011, use of a water pipe as ground was more restricted.
| It's still allowed, but you have to attach directly to the
| metal pipe where it comes out of the ground. See[2], page
| 238, section 250-51, "Grounding electrodes". (You're
| allowed 5 feet of pipe from building entrance). Also see
| 250-53(D)(2), where the risk of future replacement of a
| metal water pipe with plastic is discussed. Water pipes are
| now valid grounds only if they meet the general ground rod
| criterion - six feet of conductor buried in earth. (3m for
| pipes.) You can see the general progression from "pipes are
| grounds" to "only grounding rods driven in the ground can
| be trusted." Which is reasonable enough, given that most
| new pipe is plastic. At this point, grounding pipes is more
| about preventing them from becoming energized if something
| shorts to a pipe. Just as all electrical boxes must be
| grounded.
|
| [1] https://archive.org/details/mcgrawhillsnatio00mcpa/page
| /296/...
|
| [2] https://archive.org/details/nationalelectric0000unse_d8
| w8/pa...
| mcbishop wrote:
| I assisted with a few residential electrical-service
| upgrades last year (in California). ...If the plumbing pipe
| could be used as one of two paths to ground (i.e.
| conductive all the way), it was. Otherwise two grounding
| stakes were installed instead of one.
|
| > by code, plumbing repairs couldn't leave behind unbonded
| sections of conductive plumbing
|
| I assume that's correct, but I think shady / lazy / amateur
| contractors can assume the inspector won't check work in
| the crawl space.
| pyb wrote:
| In most countries, I don't think you're required to update your
| home every time the electrical code gets a change. However,
| many electricians will try to sell you on this unnecessary
| work.
| nemo44x wrote:
| Generally (in the USA) if you touch something in your home,
| you need to bring it up to code. You touch a wall, well now
| you need to make sure that wall has a socket in it, for
| example.
|
| Doing an addition? Well, now you need to ensure the entire
| house has fire/C02 detectors wired together with it.
| greedo wrote:
| This is not correct. I finished my entire basement, and
| nothing outside the basement needed to be updated to the
| current NEC.
| nemo44x wrote:
| I said addition, not finishing a basement. But if your
| basement had a wall that wasn't up to code and it was
| part of your finishing, you'd have to bring that wall up.
| Filligree wrote:
| > Generally (in the USA) if you touch something in your
| home, you need to bring it up to code. You touch a wall,
| well now you need to make sure that wall has a socket in
| it, for example.
|
| Sorry, is there a requirement that every single wall should
| have a socket? ...that's what extension cords are for.
| dboreham wrote:
| Yes, there are also requirements for example that
| kitchens have an outlet every N feet (I forget the exact
| number) in order that the short cords supplied on
| toasters, kettles etc can reach every part of the counter
| surface without an extension.
| dmm wrote:
| > that's what extension cords are for.
|
| That's exactly why every wall is required to have an
| outlet now, to reduce the use of extension cords.
| skyper123 wrote:
| Every wall more than 24 inch in size needs an outlet, and
| for longer walls you need an outlet every 12 feet.
|
| In a kitchen scenario, every counter top more than a foot
| needs an outlet and for longer counter top runs you need
| one every 4 feet.
| _whiteCaps_ wrote:
| Extension cords are a bad idea. Especially since you can
| buy 10A rated cords that can be plugged into 15A sockets.
|
| https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-55-ft-16-3-Green-Outdoor-
| Ext...
|
| There's a really good explanation in this video:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_q-xnYRugQ
| Filligree wrote:
| Then the fuse would blow, right?
| _whiteCaps_ wrote:
| That extension cord doesn't have a fuse.
| dymk wrote:
| Generally, no, this isn't the case.
| pavon wrote:
| The general rule in most places is that any circuits that
| aren't modified as part of the new work don't need to be
| brought up to modern code. The main service panel is the main
| thing that ends up needing to be upgraded incidentally, since
| all circuits depend on it, and that can easily be more
| expensive than the actual work being done. But that only
| needs to be done once, and many old houses will want it
| upgraded anyway to allow for more circuits to be added than
| the box was originally designed to accommodate.
|
| However, I think the 10 years is a bit pessimistic. At least
| in the US, the code hasn't changed that much in the last
| 20-30 years, and many of the changes are at the periphery
| where they are easy to modify like GFCIs, and tamper
| resistant outlets, etc, so I wouldn't be afraid of making
| modifications to existing circuits for houses in that range.
| Older than that you start running into (AA-1350) aluminum
| wiring (35 years or older) or two-conductor wiring (65 years
| or older), and you'll want to take the policy of not touching
| those old circuits unless you plan on completely replacing
| them.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| I don't think it's unreasonable to update to code when _other
| changes are made_.
| londons_explore wrote:
| You are normally required to update anything an electrician
| touches or could impact.
|
| So if you are having a new socket added in your kitchen, then
| all the other sockets in the kitchen on the same circuit will
| need updating, and the breaker for the kitchen.
|
| But you probably won't have to have your living room rewired.
| Dma54rhs wrote:
| It seems US is way more overregulated when it comes to
| electricity or building in general.
| efitz wrote:
| You could leave off everything after "overregulated" and
| still be correct.
| tstrimple wrote:
| And every time I see a video online of a dance floor or
| stadium collapsing or people getting electrocuted by
| accidentally touching ungrounded electrical devices I'm
| reminded why. That's not to say those things don't happen
| here, just at a lower frequency. Safety standards are
| written in blood after all.
| efitz wrote:
| Structure collapses are extremely rare, which is why they
| are always news. I am not unhappy with the state of
| regulation when it comes to building structures that have
| the potential to kill hundreds or thousands of people at
| a time.
|
| However I think many locations in the US way overdo
| regulation when it comes to residential building codes.
| When you buy a house, you get a professional inspection.
| If it comes up dangerous, then you are armed with the
| knowledge to make a risk decision that's right for you.
|
| I don't need spacecraft level engineering on my car;
| similarly i don't need skyscraper level engineering on my
| house.
| prpl wrote:
| might be easier to add a new circuit
| somehnguy wrote:
| Are you certain about that?
|
| I'm having a new service entry cable, meter box, and main
| breaker panel put in next week. By its nature that should
| impact every single circuit in my house. But my electrician
| isn't touching anything besides what I listed above, and I
| know that there are multiple other things around the house
| not up to current code.
| sokoloff wrote:
| You have an electrician and AHJ that understands the NEC
| correctly. In this case, there are explicit exceptions
| written in code (210.12(B)), but that's an exception to a
| new part of code. In the general case, replacing like-
| for-like is permitted, so long as the original met code
| at the time of installation.
| londons_explore wrote:
| You may live in a place where the law doesn't require
| that. Or you may have found an electrician willing to
| turn a blind eye to that stuff. Or you might be about to
| get a far larger bill than expected when the electrician
| 'discovers' that midway through the job, and now isn't
| legally allowed to put it back as he found it.
| somehnguy wrote:
| I'm in NY, US and and the proper permit was pulled for
| the job, as well as hiring an independent inspector to
| check the work when finished. My particular electrician
| has been doing business for ~30 years so I doubt he's
| risking violations over things like that, plus he would
| have to be colluding with the inspector. He already did
| an inspection of the work needed and planned it, it would
| be impossible for him to suddenly notice other things
| that need to be done.
|
| The price I'm paying for this job lines right up with the
| national job average pricing you can find online. If it
| was common to require doing all of that extra code
| updating I would think the average price should be _much_
| higher.
|
| Maybe I'm wrong but my thought is that it isn't so
| black+white and some electricians may push upsells harder
| than other more honest ones.
| jxramos wrote:
| would you mind sharing a link to that resource. Is there
| a union rate webpage or something of the like where you
| can dial in your region and type of work etc like an
| online calculator or is there just some table printed
| somewhere online?
| greedo wrote:
| This is not correct for my city...
| nsporillo wrote:
| When I got the exterior siding of my home replaced, we also
| wanted to have our electrical meter box replaced because it was
| falling off the side of the house.
|
| The work we originally thought was needed was just a new meter
| box. Turned out we needed a new wire run from the meter all the
| way to our water line, a new pipe for the underground wiring,
| two additional grounding wires.
|
| The utility said it wasnt their problem as the meter itself is
| their property but the housing, the way it attaches to the
| house, and the connection to the transformer was our
| responsibility to pay for.
|
| Nearly $2000 to get a simple meter box replacement. Edit:
| Because this work was to be done in tandem with the siding
| replacement to avoid expensive rework, we didn't have much of
| an option in shopping around as most electricians did not want
| to deal with coordination with the utility around disconnect
| and inspection.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| > Nearly $2000 to get a simple meter box replacement.
|
| If it's so simple, why didn't you do it and save $2,000? Part
| of that price is uncertainty due to scheduling/coordinating
| with the siding contractor and utility.
|
| Everything after the meter, including grounding conductors,
| are premises wiring aka your responsibility.
|
| Having your electrical service properly grounded sure beats
| being electrocuted.
|
| I manage electricians, and my jobs get charged $110/hr for a
| journeyman in a service van.
| brodouevencode wrote:
| It's not simple, and most electricians hate doing it unless
| it's a fresh install because power companies can be a pain
| to deal with sometimes.
| [deleted]
| ilyt wrote:
| Needing the knowledge to do the "right" steps doesn't mean
| the steps stop being simple, it just means it's "simple but
| easy to fuck up".
| nsporillo wrote:
| The work was complete within 4 hours, coordination was easy
| with the siding contractors as I managed it. Called them up
| and they were here in 20 minutes to put the J-Block in
| right after the electrical guys removed the old meter box.
|
| Getting the work done properly was important to me. After
| the replacement, the random occasional 2-3 second power
| outages went away and it looks great.
|
| My point was mostly to concur with parent that often you do
| incur unexpected work when updating legacy electrical, and
| that adds a bit of cost. To a homeowner, a box swap seems
| simple but can wind up costing thousands more than you
| expect.
| bluGill wrote:
| Because while it is simple, the power is out while I do it.
| When it is just a single circuit no problem, but if I'm
| missing one part that means several more hours while I
| track it down (home depot might or might not have it). A
| real electrician will have the parts on the van, or at
| least know where to get the missing one. Not to mention
| there is probably power to the box, while I can work on
| live circuits I prefer not to. (or if there is no power,
| that means there is no power for days because I work on
| weekends, then the inspector comes on Monday, and only
| after that does the power company reconnect).
|
| There are some jobs that I can do, but I hire someone else
| to do anyway.
| iso1631 wrote:
| Clearly it's not simple, but superficially you wouldn't
| think it was that complex.
|
| Think of the old "I could write twitter in a weekend"
| adage. Sure it seems simple at first glance, but once you
| get into it it's far more complex.
|
| A layman would think "It's a plastic box with a couple of
| wires in, surely it can't cost more than $200" and take
| more than an hour".
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| I think that's a poor analogy.
|
| _Most_ residential wiring really is as simple as it
| appears at first glance.
|
| The problem is that there are a few cases where it isn't,
| and the issue is being able to know when that's true.
| This is where the skills and experience come into play.
|
| In case I need to cite some authority, I've been wiring
| my own homes (with permits) for > 25 years, and was
| licensed by New Mexico to install my own 6.7kW solar
| array a couple of years ago. I'm not an electrician,
| however.
| dboreham wrote:
| Concur. I have an electrical engineering degree, and a
| copy of the NEC. However, in many situations I end up
| deciding that it will take me so long to figure out the
| correct interpretation of the code for my situation that
| I may as well pay someone who takes one look and says "ok
| this needs to be done like that...".
| pjc50 wrote:
| > If it's so simple, why didn't you do it
|
| UK note: under "Part P" rules, it is significantly harder
| to legally do your own electrical work.
| https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/find-an-
| electrician...
| quickthrowman wrote:
| Most jurisdictions in the US allow homeowners to self-
| perform electrical work. Electrical inspectors tend to be
| a lot more picky and thorough with homeowner performed
| work since homeowners are notoriously bad electricians.
| greedo wrote:
| I did all the wiring in my basement (except connecting to
| the panel), and the inspector did a cursory inspection,
| both rough-in and final. He looked at maybe two of the
| outlets (none of the lighting fixtures), and then on
| final just used a receptacle checker. Now as a DIYer with
| OCD and a fear of burning down my house, I had tried to
| be VERY careful, but it was the first electrical work I
| had done. Either I'm an electrical prodigy or he was
| lackadaisical.
| newZWhoDis wrote:
| Required to sheath ground in green? What on earth for? That
| makes ground less effective since you want any incidental
| contact with ground to ground the object touching it.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| The part of the wire that is connected to the grounding
| object has no sheathing, but the length of the cable is
| insulated. The old cable was the same way. The coating was
| black and looked identical to the other wires running through
| the wall. I assume the justification for the code is that it
| makes the ground wire visually distinct.
| bluGill wrote:
| I believe that either a bare wire or a green wire is allowed.
| However no other colors. That was the case ~6 years ago when
| I checked the NEC.
| DannyBee wrote:
| Bare is allowed depending.
|
| It is only required to be "primarily green". So the common
| alternative of green with yellow stripe is also allowed.
|
| You can reidentify black cable if it's large enough gauge
| (6 awg currently).
| georgeoliver wrote:
| I was a little surprised to read the original comment too.
| I've never seen a sheathed ground wire used in WA state (on
| residential).
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| Because without a common language for what color wires carry
| load a simple oversight can be fatal.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Except a bare wire is always a ground.
| DannyBee wrote:
| Bare ground is allowed in lots of cases. The requirement is
| that insulated ground wires must be primarily green (IE green
| with yellow stripe is okay), but this is actually not new.
|
| They must be > 6 awg to pull black and use green tape on the
| ends.
|
| See 250.119.
|
| This has been the case for a very long time though, at least
| since 2007 NEC. I don't have handy copies around for before
| then.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| It was probably sheathed in black or some other color
| originally.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| how in the world would it make it less effective? that
| doesn't make any sense. If it's properly done, it's
| equivalent.
| sowbug wrote:
| "What on earth for?"
|
| _rimshot_
| londons_explore wrote:
| Electrical specs are very strict.
|
| They aren't just about electrical safety directly, but also
| about not potentially confusing people in the future.
|
| If the cable was black, then someone may not have known that
| it was an earth cable, and might have cut it, which would
| leave your electrical installation unsafe.
|
| Thats the reasoning why using the wrong color for a wire can
| make it illegal.
| [deleted]
| vel0city wrote:
| That's the thing though: the best choice for a ground wire
| is _no_ color at all, just the raw copper wire.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground
| wires because they are supposed to be cables sheathed in green.
|
| Where was that? In my (medium-aged) American house and in some
| newish romex cable I bought last year, the ground wires are all
| bare copper cables, no green sheathing at all. I've had
| electrical work done in the last couple weeks, and no one even
| mentioned them.
|
| IIRC (not an electricial) bare copper and green-sheathed wires
| are both acceptable for ground wires.
| repiret wrote:
| You don't say where you are, but that certainly hasn't been my
| experience. Where I am, in Oregon, USA:
|
| * I own a house that was built in the early 20th century. As
| was typical of the time, the house has a small number of fused
| circuits, which do not have a ground wire, and where the wire
| gauge is thinner than would be required for a modern circuit of
| the same capacity. Just the same, it's perfectly legal to: *
| Add new outlets to existing circuits without changing the fuse
| to match the wire gauge of the circuit or adding a ground wire.
| It has to either be a NEMA 1-15R receptacle (no ground plug) or
| a GFCI receptacle with a label that says there's no equipment
| ground. * Replace the fuse boxes with modern breaker boxes
| without re-wiring the house to have grounded outlets. The only
| limitation is that the new breakers would have to be smaller
| than the existing fuses so that the wire gauge meets current
| code for the breaker size.
|
| * I have a 1998 house which has several pairs of circus on
| opposite phases which share a neutral wire. This is legal
| still, but requires that the circuits are connected to dual-
| throw breakers, so that it's not possible to have one circuit
| hot with the other dead. But this house doesn't use dual-throw
| breakers like it should. As far as I know, that wasn't even
| code when the house was built. But electricians can still add
| new circuits without fixing that.
|
| * Some years ago I was remodeling a 1956 house. Initially, the
| inspector asserted that we would need to replace a staircase
| whose width and pitch did not meet current code. But he was
| mistaken. Even though we replaced the stair treads, because we
| didn't make any changes to the structure of the staircase, the
| head county building inspector agreed that we didn't need to
| bring it to current code.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Multi-wire branch circuits (your second point) will likely
| always be legal, because they're fundamentally safe from an
| engineering point of view.
|
| Requiring common-disconnect (but not common-trip) breakers I
| think was a requirement since before 1998, but because it
| only needs common-disconnect, a listed handle-tie between the
| two breakers will suffice. (In other words, this should be a
| quite inexpensive situation to remedy. $8 for 3 of them at
| Home Depot for one particular common panel:
| https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-Circuit-Breaker-
| Hand...)
| repiret wrote:
| Yes, I agree with both points. When done right, they're
| slightly safer and more energy efficient, because there's
| less current flowing on the full length of the neutral
| line. I've even seen installs where the inspector was okay
| with a handle-tie made with a scrap of copper wire,
| although I'm not convinced that was actually code.
|
| The handle-tie would get you common-trip too, wouldn't it?
| sokoloff wrote:
| No. Over-current trips do not flip the breaker to the off
| position. Instead, it trips internally and the handle
| moves ever-so-slightly and becomes "rattle-y" for lack of
| a more precise term.
|
| If you have a breaker in your hand (now or at a home
| center), you can slap it briskly against your thigh and
| it will "trip" allowing you to see how the handle will
| look when tripped. To a cursory glance, it will appear on
| (but you will notice the handle can be moved about 1/8"
| more than normal).
|
| That small movement is not enough to induce a trip or
| disconnect on the handle-tied breaker. (The requirement
| is only "Each multiwire branch circuit shall be provided
| with a means that will simultaneously disconnect all
| ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch
| circuit originates." That's to allow for safe servicing.)
| carcostthrow wrote:
| Oh it gets even funnier then that.
|
| So I took quick look into what it would actually take to
| upgrade the main circuit breaker in the house assuming a 100A
| to 200A upgrade is needed to accommodate both an EV and a heat
| pump. I thought it was $5000 or so.
|
| As it turns out, $5000 is for pole mounted service. It's range
| is actually around $15,000 to $25,000 for underground service,
| as it requires digging the line from the street to the house.
| Unknown how much cost there if too many houses here need to
| upgrade as well which would necessitate upgrading transformers
| feeding this area (most houses here are 100A AFAIK).
| DannyBee wrote:
| This is only true in high cost states. In most states, it's
| 10-15 a ft plus some minimum cost that is like 1500 bucks for
| trenching setup. Maybe 15-20 in the worst case.
|
| To redo my service to single phase 800 amps, which required a
| new transformer on a pole, new commercial panel, 100 feet of
| _large_ underground drop (parallel MCM 600), etc, georgia
| power + electrician total cost was 10k.
|
| If i had wanted to drag 3 phase power to my shop, which was a
| mile away, they would charge 10 bucks a foot, total cost 55k.
|
| (I convert the large single phase instead with a digital
| 3-phase converter)
|
| PGE/California electricians is particularly horrible about
| costing - i've seen combined costs (IE between PGE +
| electrician) of like 15k for panel upgrades that require 10
| feet of trenching
| Whinner wrote:
| As a counter point, I paid about $1600 in 2019 in northern NJ
| to have my circuit breaker panel replaced and my service
| upgraded from 100 to 200.
| brianwawok wrote:
| EV or not EV, I really think you want 200A service? It has
| been the standard for quite a few years, and I cannot imagine
| only having 100A service in a proper house (would be fine for
| an apartment or whatnot). Now I am higher electric usage than
| most, but I hit over 100A several times a day (but have never
| hit 200A and flipped my breaker).
|
| The actually switching out your circuit breaker from 100A to
| 200A is cheap (2-3k?). Almost all of the cost is for the
| utility to run you a bigger line, and they can pretty much
| charge you anything they want (what is your alternative if
| you don't like the price?)
| carcostthrow wrote:
| >It has been the standard for quite a few years, and I
| cannot imagine only having 100A service in a proper house
|
| 100A service is fairly normal here for smaller homes. As
| heating here is primarily done by natural gas furnaces
| rather then electrical heating. Which make sense; gas is
| way cheaper to heat with here then electricity. And it
| saves a dollar for the developer.
|
| I don't know about larger homes though; I'd imagine that
| they'd have 200A circuits but it wouldn't surprise me if
| they didn't unless the builder specifically requested it.
| kennend3 wrote:
| I live in a large home (~5,600 square feet) in the
| "Greater Toronto area" built in 2000. I have a 100A
| service.
|
| This has never been a problem for us.
|
| Stove, furnace, and dryer are gas. So the only "power
| hungry" device we have is our Air Conditioner.
| brianwawok wrote:
| I cannot find any new homes with smaller than 150. What I
| have seen is:
|
| Smaller House: Default 150, pay a little more to get 200
|
| Bigger House: Default 200, pay a little more to get 2x200
| carcostthrow wrote:
| I'm in Canada in the prairies, so that might be making a
| difference. Where are you looking at?
| brianwawok wrote:
| US Midwest
| hinkley wrote:
| I think my house has 2x200A. It was zoned multi family but
| the previous owners had a separate service for an electric
| car, and there's still bits of electronics in the attic
| from where they tried to do crypto mining.
|
| I'm sure their equipment overheated. The roof is not
| insulated and the attic fan is pushing against a louver
| that's the wrong design. It gets hot up there without any
| equipment.
| brianwawok wrote:
| Yah in most cases 2x200 is the step up from 200. The
| reason being is your wire that runs your 200A service
| isn't big enough to carry 400A, so you would need to tear
| it out. Why tear it out a perfectly good wire when you
| can just run another?
|
| My house is a really big house built in the 50s. It was
| initially 2x100A service as I don't think 200A service at
| home was really a thing. It had 2 meters and everything.
| Sometime in the 80s they tore out the feed from the pole
| and put in a proper single 200A line, and just left the
| second meter as defunct.
| zbrozek wrote:
| Electrical code has completely unreasonable and unrealistic
| demand factors associated with appliances. Basically "1"
| for just about everything, as well as 3 watts per square
| foot of floor area. If you sum all of these things up, I'm
| well above the 200 amp service delivered to my home.
|
| Reality? I had a peak draw of 23 amps from the grid in the
| last year. Luckily the NEC has an escape valve for folks
| who can prove that.
| brianwawok wrote:
| Right, don't go off code for having to do a big upgrade
| like this.
|
| I legit hit 100A several times a month. Have hit over
| 150A.
|
| Easy way for me to draw 100A at once:
|
| 40A: EV charging
|
| 32A: Electric Oven warming up at max
|
| 24A: Electric Dryer
|
| 40A: HotTub jets on
|
| 40A: AC ON Max
|
| Unlikely all of those are on full max, but it's pretty
| easy to imagine getting past 100A before we even touch
| things like lights and computers.
|
| EV + Dryer + Hot Tub pretty much pull max for the entire
| run, the other stuff is more likely to cycle up and down.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| Saving the world driving an EV, while running the AC,
| oven and hot tub simultaneously, full blast.
| brianwawok wrote:
| AC and Hot Tub full blast would almost never happen, Hot
| Tub is more a winter thing.
|
| But A full EV charge can be 6-7 hours, so could easily be
| all evening. A hot tub could easily be an hour of overlap
| in there. So someone turns on the Oven? Would def pop
| 100.
| eppp wrote:
| And if you only have a 200A service, your service drop is
| likely only 2 or 1/0.
| brianwawok wrote:
| Most 200A services around me are 4/0 Aluminum
|
| 2/0 copper would work but would cost more, so likely not
| used.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Do Americans quote large appliance current at 220V or
| 110V equivalent?
|
| From the EV it seems the former, but in that case I'm
| horrified at how power-hungry your appliances are.
|
| A typical new oven sold in Europe is 3.6kW, 16A @ 230V.
|
| A new tumble drier is 600W, so about 2.5A at 230V.
|
| There's such a range of hot tub and AC sizes I can't
| compare these.
| tbihl wrote:
| My small, or at least unremarkable, oven is 4.8kW, also
| 230V. It's from about 2006, iirc.
|
| Electric tumble dryer is 5.6kW at 230V. It's from 2017.
| Maybe yours is gas, and 600W is the motor?
|
| I have a smallish 1900sqft 1950s house with average or
| smaller appliances.
|
| I love doing appliance comparison with European houses,
| though.
| Symbiote wrote:
| New heat pump tumble dryer, 600W: https://www.siemens-
| home.bsh-group.com/uk/productlist/laundr...
|
| New condensor tumble dryer, 2600W: https://www.siemens-
| home.bsh-group.com/uk/productlist/laundr...
|
| My dryer is 8 years old and similar to the second one --
| half the power of yours, and I'm still not sure what the
| 24A from above would mean.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| 2 _4_ 0V circuits are simply both legs of the 1 _2_ 0V
| split phase connected together, so the amperage is
| measured at 120V. The circuit breakers for 120V and 240V
| circuits are the same, except 240V circuits use two
| breakers with the handles tied together[1]. Electric
| resistive heaters like ovens and clothes dryers are
| always perfectly efficient, so I'm not sure how you even
| thought it would be possible to have an inefficient
| heater.
|
| [1]: The 120V rails in the middle of the breaker panel
| alternate between each split phase, so if you connect a
| circuit to any two adjacent breakers you will get 240V. A
| 120V circuit is connected to neutral and a single
| breaker.
| mcbishop wrote:
| > I'm not sure how you even thought it would be possible
| to have an inefficient heater
|
| They're inefficient relative to a 250-500% efficient heat
| pump.
| Symbiote wrote:
| As well as using a heat pump, a more efficient dryer can
| be better-insulated, or make better use of the heat
| produced in drying clothes, however that might be done.
| kennend3 wrote:
| > Do Americans quote large appliance current at 220V or
| 110V equivalent?
|
| Fist, North America is a 120/240V system, not 110/220.
| For the life of me i will never understand the confusion
| over why some people, including North Americans keep
| referencing 110 volts?
|
| The code is clear, 120 Volts +- 5 to 10 percent?
|
| Perhaps because the "allowed range" is 110 to 125? If i
| measure my house right now, it is 121 volts and this is
| pretty typical.
|
| Your dryer example seems like it is running on gas?
|
| In North America, electric dryers use anywhere from 1800
| to 5000 watts.
|
| AC depends on the home size, the location, etc. Mine has
| a 60A 240V breaker but again the "code" states you can
| only have an 80% "continuous load" on a circuit so
| technically this circuit can not pull 14,400 continuous
| watts.
|
| One thing Europeans dont grasp is the difference in house
| sizes vs north ameria and so naturally our appliances are
| larger and more power hungry.
|
| What may take a European washer 2 loads, most north
| american washer/dryers will do in one. So the "power
| usage by load" is the same?
|
| Using a device like a range's maximum power draw is
| dishonest. If a north american range is twice the size of
| what is available in EU, but not all the elements are in
| use at once... does that mean something?
| brianwawok wrote:
| Almost all big appliances are 220. Fridges are 110, but
| the big guys
|
| * EV Charging
|
| * Electric or Induction Oven
|
| * Electric Dryer
|
| * AC
|
| * Electric Water Heater
|
| are all doing to be 220. The amps will vary, and most
| will not peg the required wire 100%, but may for example
| do a big pulse to startup (ACs are famous for this).
| kennend3 wrote:
| For which country is this?
|
| Only a handful of countries actually us 110/220
|
| If it is North America, I think you mean 120 and 240
|
| https://www.powerstream.com/cv.htm
| powera wrote:
| The critical path of "install more solar panels" is not at all
| gated by the cost of solar panels these days.
|
| It is the electrical work (both within in the home, and
| "interconnect") that is the expensive bottleneck.
|
| (( also batteries are also a bottleneck. but a different one. ))
| photonbeam wrote:
| Panels are getting cheap enough that its almost worth just
| laying them on the ground in the yard than paying to put them
| on the roof
| powera wrote:
| I wouldn't put panels where they are easily gnawed upon by
| rats and mice.
| bloomingeek wrote:
| My 2 cents: My home has a buried power cable from the late 60's.
| It's size can only handle up to 100 amps, my original main
| breaker was only 75 amp, we upgraded.(In my state all new houses
| have to have at least a 200 amp main.)
|
| The electrical trade is very rewarding, but very dangerous. You
| typically have to rely on co-workers to be responsible and safe,
| if they are distracted, life changing and/or ending results can
| occur.
|
| Before considering an electrical career, attend an arc-flash
| class to get an idea about what your are signing up for.
|
| If you are a detail person, it's a great trade. If you like
| working in all sorts of environments both in and outdoors, it's a
| great trade. It will take a long term toll on your body because
| of the mechanics of the jobs.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| We are thinking of switching some gas appliances to electric in
| our old farmhouse but we probably need to rework our electrical
| panel completely to add high amperage services for an induction
| range (my wife won't accept an ordinary electric range) and an
| electric water heater.
|
| Fortunately our son is in training as a handyman and that means
| we can get him working on projects of all kinds around the farm.
| Of all the trades, electricity is the one that I know enough
| about to supervise somebody. (e.g. I am baffled by plumbing)
| danans wrote:
| > my wife won't accept an ordinary electric range
|
| She's right. Induction has the speed and response of a gas
| cooktop with the precision a resistance electric cooktop.
|
| > and an electric water heater.
|
| Make sure it's a heat pump water heater if efficiency and
| operating cost matter to you.
| Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
| > She's right. Induction has the speed and response of a gas
| cooktop with the precision a resistance electric cooktop.
|
| This, and also easier cleanability than either of them
| (basically it doesn't need more cleaning than the rest of
| your kitchen counter) and much safer (won't heat anything
| non-metallic that you leave on top, won't heat the surface of
| the stovetop itself except indirectly via heat transmission
| from the pots/pans, and will automatically turn off if it
| doesn't detect a metallic item).
|
| I have one and there's no way in hell I'd go back to an
| ordinary electric range as long as I can afford not to.
| vel0city wrote:
| I've got an electric radiant cooktop. It has a number of
| those features such as easy to clean (just a flat glass
| panel) and won't heat without detecting a pan and will turn
| off the element if the pan is removed for more than a
| couple of seconds. It does get hot itself instead of just
| heating the pan, but when cooking I don't know that would
| make much of a difference. You've still got a very hot pan
| sitting on the cooktop imparting a lot of heat for probably
| a while.
|
| Don't get me wrong there's other pros/cons to induction but
| you don't _need_ to get induction to have those benefits.
| bluGill wrote:
| I've been looking at them, but almost all have unusable
| touch controls. (My background is human machine interaction
| - I've never seen an acceptable stove, but induction stoves
| are all really bad). Since I've have to replace all my
| cookware as well I'm not in any hurry.
| danans wrote:
| Functionally, the touch controls make the whole thing
| much easier to clean, but I agree they are harder to use.
|
| As with the touchscreens in cars, I'm sure it's also
| about marketing a sleeker product and lowering the bill
| of materials and labor - hence cost of manufacturing.
|
| Just wait a little longer and a manufacturer will start
| offering physical dials on an induction stove as a high-
| end feature, but also realize that it will still be
| control by wire like a computer input device, not a
| mechanically coupled control like a (dumb) dimmer switch
| - since it would be ultimately controlling the inductor
| in the stovetop via software.
| nemo44x wrote:
| Precision makes no sense for a pan and is something a person
| who doesn't actually cook would care about. Your pans change
| temperature when cold food is put into them. Anyone who cooks
| knows that you are changing the temperature on your cooking
| surface constantly in many applications and it's based on the
| visual and audio queues your food give you. At no point have
| I thought "OK, I need to be at 400 degrees and in 1 minute I
| will adjust down to 300 degrees.". I don't care about
| precision like I would when doing sous-vide cooking or
| baking, for example - both of which are great uses for
| electric fuel sources.
|
| The problem with induction is the thing it's good at (heating
| water quickly) isn't a useful feature. A gas flame is a 3D
| cooking surface and this is important as I want heat applied
| to the sides of pans in many instances. Also, copper and
| aluminium cookware don't work on them and they are superior
| materials for cooking with in many instances.
| danans wrote:
| > Precision makes no sense for a pan and is something a
| person who doesn't actually cook would care about. Your
| pans change temperature when cold food is put into them.
| Anyone who cooks knows that you are changing the
| temperature on your cooking surface constantly in many
| applications and it's based on the visual and audio queues
| your food give you.
|
| I know exactly what to expect when I set my induction stove
| to 8 (out of 10) and let my daily-use pan heat for 1
| minute. That's the setting at which I can temper oil with
| dry spices without burning them.
|
| This isn't a function of the induction element, but rather
| the digital controls. Naturally I adjust the setting once
| the cold food goes in the pan, but having a calibrated
| starting point for my cooking flow is pretty useful, and I
| cook for my family daily.
|
| > The problem with induction is the thing it's good at
| (heating water quickly) isn't a useful feature.
|
| An induction stove can heat _anything_ quickly, not just
| water. And importantly it can rapidly change temperature,
| unlike a resistance electric stove.
|
| > Also, copper and aluminium cookware don't work on them
| and they are superior materials for cooking with in many
| instances.
|
| You can just use one of these:
|
| https://www.inductioncooked.com/how-to-use-non-induction-
| coo...
|
| However, I've never seen a recipe that called for a copper
| or aluminum pan specifically. The benefit of copper is
| supposed to be precision temperature control, but as you
| said, precise temperatures don't matter for day to day
| cooking.
| nemo44x wrote:
| > I know exactly what to expect when I set my induction
| stove to 8 (out of 10) and let my daily-use pan heat for
| 1 minute. That's the setting at which I can temper oil
| with dry spices without burning them.
|
| Same, I just turn a knob and it outputs the same BTUs
| every time - it isn't random.
|
| >An induction stove can heat anything quickly, not just
| water. And importantly it can rapidly change temperature,
| unlike a resistance electric stove.
|
| Again, I'm generally not too concerned about speed here.
| But yes, I'm very much concerned with changing
| temperatures quickly which involve not only the heat
| source but just as importantly, the cookware which leads
| me to....
|
| > You can just use one of these:...The benefit of copper
| is supposed to be precision temperature control, but as
| you said, precise temperatures don't matter for day to
| day cooking.
|
| Copper is a superior material because it changes
| temperature extremely quickly because it is such a great
| conductor - it's not about precision (except with candy
| making where induction could be great) rather than
| reactivity. When I turn the gas up the pan _reacts_ to
| that change immediately and when I turn the gas down it
| reacts immediately to that. Unlike a material like cast
| iron which can store a lot of energy, it doesn 't react
| to changes in input quickly so is not suitable for many
| things - you can't finesse a cast iron pan very easily.
| Seriously, get a nice gas range and a high end copper pan
| and cook with it - you'll be amazed. It's why so many
| chefs insist on the combination of gas and copper.
|
| And no, I'm not buying one of those useless disks to make
| a copper pan work in induction. It kills the entire point
| of a copper pan and just gives you a cool, high-end look
| without the actual functionality. I'd feel like a
| complete fool because I would be.
|
| I'm happy induction exists for people that want it or
| believe gas will harm them. But it's not for everyone and
| there's extremely good reasons many people want to cook
| over open flame. When I'm not using gas to cook you'll
| find me outside burning wood fires to cook with.
| danans wrote:
| > Seriously, get a nice gas range and a high end copper
| pan and cook with it - you'll be amazed.
|
| I cooked on gas for 25 years, including with all sorts of
| pots/pans. It was great and I preferred it greatly to
| resistance electric stoves. And then I switched to
| induction and couldn't be happier with both the cooking
| performance and the indoor air quality improvement. You
| (and many others) aren't concerned with or don't believe
| in the air quality problems of burning gas in a house. To
| each their own!
|
| For my part, I tell everyone I know to maximize
| ventilation if they are cooking indoors with gas, and to
| try an induction stove to see if it works for them.
|
| > When I'm not using gas to cook you'll find me outside
| burning wood fires to cook with.
|
| That has nothing to do with the discussion about
| induction, but thanks for sharing, because I also love
| cooking over burning wood! We're more alike than you
| think!
| thehappypm wrote:
| Electric water heaters don't need to draw a ton of amps. 4500
| Watt, 240V 50 gallon ones are common, which is under 20 amps.
| Induction stoves peak at twice that.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| If you need to upgrade your service entrance, if it's within
| your means, go to 400A to future proof (EVs, HVAC and hot water
| heat pumps, induction stove, and other large loads all add up,
| along with colocated generation of some sort). Depending on
| your authority having jurisdiction (AHJ) and utility, they may
| require a licensed electrician to replace the raceway or
| similar entrance to the meter. 200A is satisfactory if greater
| amperage isn't available (US centric advice). Think of this as
| the residential version of "dig once" [1].
|
| EDIT: Yes, you may not _need_ 400A immediately, but if you 're
| doing an upgrade, the cost delta between the conductors for
| 200A vs 400A is not substantial except for very long runs.
| Also, some utilities will cover the cost of a service upgrade
| to the meter; from the meter onward into the home is your cost.
| Balance cost with future needs, future labor costs, etc. Very
| similar to dropping a whole bunch of cheap fiber in a trench
| just in case you need it in the future.
|
| I usually recommend people combine this work with a solar PV
| install, to capture the 30% federal tax credit towards the work
| (if you can justify the upgrade as necessary, which you can if
| your current service is less than 200A), as it has _no limit_
| on the amount you can capture as part of the install (versus
| the previous tax credit for electrical upgrade costs for
| installing an EV charging station).
|
| [1]
| https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/otps/policy_brief_dig_once.p...
| signaturefish wrote:
| I always forget the size difference between US and UK homes
| (I assume toomuchtodo is speaking from a US perspective).
| Here, in my three-bedroom UK house I'm on a 60A service fuse
| and considering updating to 100A in the future (amusingly, as
| part of a solar PV / electric vehicle charger install).
|
| I've never heard of a UK house having a larger than 100A
| service (although I imagine they exist here and there - it's
| certainly not common).
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| I'd never heard of a 400 A service until just this
| discussion (it's common to have 100 A - 200 A), but it's
| important to keep in mind the voltage differences and that
| effect on total power:
|
| UK: 100 A x 230 V = 23,00 W
|
| US: 200 A x 120 V = 24,00 W
|
| Edit: I am wrong in my understanding of US power
| distribution. It's 200 A per leg, which the US has two of.
| But it seems like the UK may or may not have 380 3 Phase,
| so the numbers are weird there too. Wrong all around!
| [deleted]
| throwawayacc3 wrote:
| Voltage to residential main electrical service panels in
| the United States is 240V. Major appliances run on 240V
| circuits.
|
| So when you install a 400A panel in the US, it's
| 400A*240V which is 96,000W.
| kuschku wrote:
| And service in EU is 380V, so the relationship between
| the numbers remains similar.
| throwawayacc3 wrote:
| That is incorrect. The EU/UK are on 230V at 50Hz at
| residential service entry.
| kuschku wrote:
| I'm not sure where in EU you live, but every instant
| water heater, stove, and many semi-professional workshop
| devices _require_ 380V. At least in Germany, 380V is
| standard for such devices and available in every
| household.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I think you might almost understand how it feels when
| someone makes gross generalizations across the entire US
| :).
|
| One thing I keep learning about the EU is ... do not
| generalize using Germany as the baseline. There are many
| areas where Germany is the odd one out, not the standard.
| xxpor wrote:
| 3 phase vs single phase depends on which country you're
| in in the EU.
| sbradford26 wrote:
| Services to the US are at 240V though they just utilize a
| center tap transformer to allow two different 120v legs.
| So that 200 amp service is 200 amps at 240V so
| approximately 48kW. Largely US homes have bigger feeds in
| because the US has significantly larger homes on average
| and the prevalence of AC and other higher power usage
| devices in US homes.
| danans wrote:
| > but it's important to keep in mind the voltage
| differences and that effect on total power:
|
| > UK: 100 A x 230 V = 23,00 W
|
| > US: 200 A x 120 V = 24,00 W
|
| That's incorrect. The service drop in the US is 220V. It
| gets stepped down at the main load center to 120V for
| most of the regular circuits. So it's more like 48000W
| service in US houses.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > The service drop in the US is 220V.
|
| 240V. Since we're throwing around numbers, let's be
| accurate. This is a pet peeve of mine. We've been
| standardized at 240V since 1967, and it was higher than
| 220V years before that.
| danans wrote:
| Thanks for the correction about the actual voltage today.
|
| However, it seems like 220V was the standard before that
| [1], which is why it's still common parlance, referring
| to the "higher" voltage. Certainly I've heard many people
| in the trades still refer to it with the older term, even
| if the circuit is actually 240V.
|
| 1.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity#History
| sbradford26 wrote:
| Only small correction to that is that load center doesn't
| step down voltage. The center tapped transformer at the
| street steps down the voltage to 240V, but then that
| center tap on the transformer becomes your neutral so you
| end up with two legs that are 120V from ground/neutral
| and 240V from leg to leg in your load center.
| danans wrote:
| Thanks for that correction. In retrospect it makes sense,
| because each circuit breaker isn't functioning as a
| little transformer.
| kuschku wrote:
| The service drop in EU/UK is 380V. The point stands.
| petre wrote:
| 400V between phases, 230V phase to neutral. Most homes
| have single phase though.
| kuschku wrote:
| So how would you run an instant water heater or electric
| induction stove then? Every apartment and house I've ever
| lived in had 380V three-phase right to the kitchen, to
| the bathroom, and to basement rooms (e.g. for prosumer
| workshop tools).
| petre wrote:
| We don't run an instant water heater. It's all gas or
| electric boilers.
|
| For the stove I wired one phase to all the burners and
| the oven. It had one, two or three phase options. They're
| on a separate circuit with a 16 amp fuse. It's 2200W I
| believe. The breaker has never tripped.
|
| 400V is just not very common for residential in the
| Eastern Europe, maybe in your country you have instant
| electric heaters and other powerful appliances. My dad
| has recently upgraded his house to 400V 3 phase though,
| although he didn't need it but it's nice to have.
| danans wrote:
| > So how would you run an instant water heater or
| electric induction stove then? Every apartment and house
| I've ever lived in had 380V three-phase right to the
| kitchen,
|
| I run an induction stove on 220V single phase every day
| here in the US.
| petre wrote:
| Isn't it two phase? AFAIK in the US you have 240V two
| phase with 180deg between them.
| danans wrote:
| The US uses a single, split phase
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power
| sbradford26 wrote:
| So that 380V would be for 3 phase to a home which is not
| always the case. There are plenty of homes in Europe that
| only have single phase to the house which is at 230V.
| throwawayacc3 wrote:
| That is incorrect. The EU/UK are on 230V at 50Hz at
| residential service entry. The point does not stand.
| Symbiote wrote:
| This varies.
|
| Houses and apartments in Denmark have 3 phase service. My
| apartment's main breaker is labelled 40A @ 380V.
|
| I believe the oven and hob make use of it, but I haven't
| looked myself.
| rsync wrote:
| No, he's right.
|
| It's not about having 400 amps _per se_ but about sizing
| the wire you put in the ground. Maybe you 'll have a 200a
| main breaker and you'll only ever use 200 amps, etc. -
| but the hard part was digging and _future you_ or _other
| future yous_ will be happy that the wire was upsized when
| it was put in.
|
| Same with conduit. Same with number of conduits.
|
| I can't tell you how many times I have been very pleased
| with myself that I threw in that extra 3/4 conduit line
| when we dug that one trench that one time ...
| cortesoft wrote:
| Isn't this because the UK standard is 230 volts? The US is
| only 120, so you need almost twice the amps for the same
| power.
| sbradford26 wrote:
| Services to the US are at 240V they just utilize a center
| tap transformer to allow two different 120v legs. So that
| 200 amp service is 200 amps at 240V so approximately
| 48kW.
| mech987 wrote:
| UK homes run on 230 volts, so each amp is worth double what
| US amps are worth (running on 115 volts in the US) edit:
| 115 volts per leg, and US has 2 legs, so it comes out in
| the wash, surprisingly. UK homes have tiny little service
| amps!
| rootusrootus wrote:
| No. US homes run on 240V, not 120, and not 115 * 2. We
| provide a center-tap neutral so you can split the single
| phase 240V if you desire. And we do exactly that for many
| smaller circuits, including the majority of wall sockets.
| nemo44x wrote:
| A friend of mine has 400A of service in the UK in the
| countryside as it's an old farmhouse and is pretty large
| even by USA standards.
| symfoniq wrote:
| Good advice. I just did the 400 amp upgrade. Our 3200 sq ft
| house was still on 150 amp service from the 1980s, and going
| to 200 amps just didn't seem to add much capacity relative to
| the cost. Was about $12K to go to 400 amps with two 200 amp
| panels.
| danans wrote:
| > if it's within your means, go to 400A to future proof (EVs,
| HVAC and hot water heat pumps, induction stove, and other
| large loads all add up, along with colocated generation of
| some sort
|
| I have all of these on 200A with amps to spare. But I have a
| small house. I suppose if I had multiple EVs, dryers, or heat
| pumps, or 3000sqft it would be a different story.
| rsync wrote:
| Again, see above - it's not about 400 amps _per se_ ... it
| 's about putting in bigger wire because we can't predict
| the future.
|
| It's spending a small additional amount now (on wire) to
| avoid an enormous expense (trench digging) in the future.
|
| Oh, and you know that 3" conduit required for the 400amp ?
| Make it 4".
|
| Oh, and you know that trench you just dug ? Throw in double
| 1.5" and double 3/4 conduits right in there with it.
|
| Oh and you know that first two feet of dirt you filled in ?
| Now throw _two more_ 3 /4 conduits on top of that because
| you never know when a common carrier on that same pole will
| have fiber up on it ...
|
| Future you will be very happy you did.
| danans wrote:
| > Future you will be very happy you did.
|
| The future could also look like large batteries on-site
| that charge slowly, and then provide power at high
| amperage when needed, like slowly compressing a spring,
| then suddenly releasing it.
|
| This is already what Electrify America and Freewire
| (https://freewiretech.com/) are doing with EV Fast
| chargers when the electric utility can't provide a higher
| power connection in a reasonable time-frame. As battery
| prices drop, that could be a viable way to power heavy
| home appliances.
| UI_at_80x24 wrote:
| This is double-great advice. It's completely obvious once
| mentioned but not something that may have occurred of the top
| of ones head. Thank-you for posting.
| bombcar wrote:
| It's strange because 400a service will probably NOT ever be
| needed, but the cost difference from 100-200 and 100-400 is
| basically nothing.
|
| You can also get a separate meter installed instead or
| alongside, this can be useful it the property could be dual
| purpose (think: duplex, house + machine shop, etc). This
| can increase costs because of double baseline but it can
| also reduce costs because of double "low tier" - depends on
| the market.
| [deleted]
| latexr wrote:
| > Of all the trades, electricity is the one that I know enough
| about to supervise somebody. (e.g. I am baffled by plumbing)
|
| Curiously, we're in opposite situations. I have a (very) basic
| understanding of electricity, just enough to change power
| outlets and the like. But in general I'm baffled by it because
| it's a bunch of dangerous stuff I can't see with values I don't
| fully understand1.
|
| Plumbing, on the other hand, is water inside tubes controlled
| mechanically. Taking things apart reveals the simplicity of the
| system. After doing a fix I can feel confident in the safety
| and reliability of the work even before opening on the main
| valve again2.
|
| 1 If anyone has recommendations on a trustworthy course /
| YouTube playlist which teaches enough basics to understand
| electrical wiring in residential homes, I'm interested.
|
| 2 I'm not doing super complex jobs, but in my own home it's
| been years since I've needed to call a plumber.
| _whiteCaps_ wrote:
| Not a course, but this channel has a ton of interesting
| content on US residential wiring:
| https://www.youtube.com/c/technologyconnections
| PaulHoule wrote:
| I received a PhD in physics so I got a solid dose of
| electricity and electronics.
|
| I did help teach an autotutorial class in physics for premeds
| which got me to do a little more with fluid mechanics than
| most people but the trouble I have with plumbing is finding
| documentation for the details.
|
| For instance when it comes to sealing PVC pipes I have seen
| instructions that tell you to "refer to the documentation
| from the pipe manufacturer" which is not at all
| straightforward for pipes that have been there 20+ years.
| londons_explore wrote:
| There are a lot of laws and regulations about electrical
| installations.
|
| In many regions, doing it legally requires lots of courses and
| certificates. When you have invested all the time and money
| into getting said certificates, which is sometimes multiple
| years full time, you typically want to become a full time
| electrician to pay back the time+money investment.
|
| That means that 'I just do electrics on the side' is becoming a
| thing of the past - at least in places with strict
| certification requirements.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Obviously in most parts of the world, there is no electrical
| police who will raid your home and look for evidence of
| wiring done without the correct certifications.
|
| Therefore, lots of people DIY stuff illegally...
|
| If you choose this route, understand that:
|
| * The main cause of injury/death caused by electrics is
| fires. Fires are normally caused by improper fuses (a
| fuse/breaker should always be the lowest rating of any
| device/cable/connector downstream of it, unless that device
| has its own fuse), or badly made joints. Do joints properly
| with wago blocks or by tightening screw terminals _very
| tight_.
|
| * The 'obvious' risk from electrics of electrocution is
| reduced to almost zero by installing a whole-house RCD/GFCI
| device. I wouldn't want to live in a house without one. And
| turn the power off before doing electrical work.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| But not _too_ tight, or the strands may break.
| ilyt wrote:
| In most cases you use solid wire. In case you use
| stranded you should crimp the ends anyway, and crimping
| does exactly opposite, crushes wires so tightly they form
| practically solid metal.
|
| Strands only break when wire moves and that would be the
| fault of bad stress relief, not "screwing it too hard"
| londons_explore wrote:
| I have seen lots of near-fires/melted things from under-
| tightening, but I have never seen a single near-fire from
| overtightening. I suspect it's a myth - I don't think you
| could overtighten any connector sufficiently to make it
| be a fire risk without the screw shearing first.
|
| I'd be interested to see tests demonstrating otherwise
| though.
|
| Obviously if you are doing it to the standards, you crimp
| the wire first and use a torque screwdriver to tighten to
| the exact correct torque.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > I have seen lots of near-fires/melted things from
| under-tightening, but I have never seen a single near-
| fire from overtightening.
|
| That depends what you see as near-fire ;) I recently
| helped out a friend whose lights had issues after she
| installed a more powerful fixture, turns out that the
| person installing it overtorqued the wire in the switch
| so much it nearly sheared off probably already during
| installation, and came completely apart when I took the
| switch out of the wall.
|
| Better be safe than sorry and use Wago clips.
| bombcar wrote:
| And many places in the US allow homeowners to do work that
| nobody else can do without certification - sometimes even
| skipping the permitting.
|
| It is still worthwhile to understand what you're doing, and
| how the breakers/GFCI/Arc fault will save your ass - and
| why they are NOT the same thing!
| secabeen wrote:
| Wago blocks are wonderful, and I hope I'll never twist two
| wires together under a wire nut ever again.
| ilyt wrote:
| Are you sure that's "illegal" or just "illegal to take
| money for it" ? Here (Poland) you can do it just fine on
| your own stuff as long as you don't pretend to be
| electrician and sell your service, with caveats (only
| touching anything after power company stuff IIRC)
| TheCoelacanth wrote:
| In much of the US, you are allowed to do any work that
| you want to on your own property, though if a
| professional would be required to get permits and
| inspections to do the same work then you usually still
| have to get those permits/inspections.
| bombcar wrote:
| It's interesting that I've found the people who are comfortable
| with plumbing are very wary of electrical, and vice-versa.
|
| Look for a "smart heat pump" water heater and you can probably
| get away without actually upgrading service _unless you want
| to_ - 100 amp service can support a stove and water heater
| especially if the water heater is "smart" enough to not run
| when the stove is running.
|
| You can also find a friendly electrician to "check off" on your
| wiring after you do most of the grunt work, this works well for
| areas that require permits even for homeowner-done work.
| anon3846472 wrote:
| In Taiwan, electricians and plumbers are the same occupation.
|
| When you're getting your certifications, you have to get
| both.
|
| You can specialize in one, but you have to know plumbing and
| electrical work to pass.
| bombcar wrote:
| I was thinking more on the DIY side; I'm entirely
| comfortable with electrical, but I worry I wouldn't "do"
| plumbing right (soldering copper, mainly; I have no issue
| with PEX); a friend of mine is the opposite.
| elicash wrote:
| There's a startup that is adding a battery to induction
| appliances, in part so that you can run off of a standard
| outlet: https://www.channingcopper.com
|
| It's only in pre-orders, however. Edit: Looks like first round
| of pre-orders were limited to Bay Area and now there's a wait
| list for next round.
| Siecje wrote:
| Your comment implies that you could hook up a ordinary electric
| range but not an induction range.
|
| I thought induction used slightly less energy. Or is it that it
| uses more energy for a shorter time so the net is less but the
| peak is higher?
|
| I assume I could replace my electric stove with a stove with
| induction "burners".
| mankyd wrote:
| I believe the answer is that induction is more efficient at
| getting heat into your food.
|
| With electric, it heats up a coil that heats up your pan (and
| the air around it) that heats your food.
|
| With induction, it skips the coil and simply heats the pan.
| The pans are specially designed to contain a heating coil in
| them which implicitly is closer to your food.
|
| It also means the work surface tends to cool quickly (or
| never get hot in the first place), making it safer.
| mnw21cam wrote:
| The pan doesn't have a heating coil in it - it's just a
| solid slab of metal. However, that acts like a single turn
| of wire in a "coil" shorted out.
| greedo wrote:
| Induction compatible cookware doesn't have a heating coil.
| They just need ferrous metal in them. They can be clad in
| aluminum, with a ferrous core etc. A cast iron pan works
| fine, and most stainless steel cookware is fine. It's just
| the cheap teflon stuff that's out of luck.
| nemo44x wrote:
| > It's just the cheap teflon stuff that's out of luck.
|
| And copper and aluminium. Some stoneware too as well as
| glass when needed.
| greedo wrote:
| Copper and aluminum can be used as a cladding around the
| ferrous metal core just fine. I guess you could do the
| same with some of the ceramics/stoneware as well.
| nemo44x wrote:
| It really isn't just fine. You lose the entire purpose of
| the pans and might as well be cooking on an electric
| stove at that point.
| UI_at_80x24 wrote:
| >The pans are specially designed to contain a heating coil
| in them which implicitly is closer to your food.
|
| This is not correct. Any ferric-metal pan/pot will work. If
| a magnet can stick to your pot it will work.
| ilyt wrote:
| I wonder did anyone did a comparision between ones sold
| as "induction" vs plain old steel pan.
|
| Like, do the induction ones do something to make the heat
| distribution more equal compared to slab of steel ?
| MarioMan wrote:
| >The pans are specially designed to contain a heating coil
| in them which implicitly is closer to your food.
|
| Just to note, you don't need special pans to use an
| inductive stove. Any magnetic cookware will do, which
| includes cast iron and most stainless steel. As an
| intuitive rule of thumb, if a magnet will stick to the
| bottom, then it's compatible.
| russdill wrote:
| Induction ranges are more efficient, so to heat at the same
| rate as an ordinary electric range, use less energy. But many
| people want an induction range that is more powerful than a
| typical electric range.
| sbradford26 wrote:
| Yeah an induction range most likely wouldn't require any more
| power than a resistive range. The only caveat to that is that
| higher end ranges might have higher power draws due to having
| more burners and such and induction ranges tend to be the
| higher end. That being said it looks like most ranges require
| a 40 amp circuit now, while code now requires wiring a new
| range outlet for 50 amps even if you put a 40 amp breaker on
| it.
| bombcar wrote:
| As an aside, for those watching from home - you can put
| LARGER connections downstream of smaller ones (50 amp
| outlet on a 40 amp breaker) because the worst case is your
| breaker will flip.
|
| You can put SMALLER outlets on a larger breaker (40 amp
| outlet on a 50 amp breaker) because the outlet is SUPPOSED
| to keep you from overloading it (and the outlet will
| actually be rated for more than the "plug size")
|
| The DANGER you must avoid is having a 50 amp outlet on a 50
| amp breaker but only having wiring between them that can
| support 40 amps - and the amount of amperage a wire can
| support DROPS over longer distances. So it's best to size
| everything correctly from the beginning.
| bluGill wrote:
| Standard non-metallic 8 gauge wire is only allowed to
| handle 40 amps. If you want to put 50 amps to the outlet
| you need more expensive wire (most likely 6 gauge, but
| there are other forms of 8 gauge that are approved for 50
| amps). Since most stoves only need 40 amps electricians
| will run non-metallic 8 gauge by default and put a 40 amp
| breaker on it - then since there isn't such a thing as a
| 40 amp outlet they have a 50 amp outlet on the other end.
| sbradford26 wrote:
| Yeah the main relationship that matters is the breaker to
| wire.
|
| There is a fun semi related thing. Can you put 15 amp
| outlets on a 20 amp circuit? The answer is yes you can,
| but only if there is at least two receptacles, and a
| standard duplex outlet counts at two receptacles.
| bombcar wrote:
| Which is another reason you don't want to oversize a
| breaker; you can have ten, twenty two-receptacle outlets
| on a single circuit, and if lots of stuff was plugged in
| you could easily draw tens or hundreds of amps, which
| would melt normal Romex pretty quickly.
| mfer wrote:
| The article is touching on the important issue of homes but is
| missing three very important related issues.
|
| 1) The network that delivers power to the home. It's not able to
| handle everyone electrifying everything. If you electrify
| everything (electric stove, electric car, air conditioner/heater)
| you are going to be hard pressed in many locales to be covered by
| at home solar.
|
| 2) Electricity generation. We need a lot more.
|
| 3) Dealing with problems in regions. Like power outages in areas
| that deal with lots of snow and freezing. How do people have heat
| to survive? How do things work so that we don't have destruction
| to homes from frozen pipes? Stuff like that.
| iso1631 wrote:
| For your network question
|
| My village (UK) copes easily with everyone at home with the
| ovens on full cooking Christmas dinner and putting the kettle
| on after a football match, so clearly plenty of spare peak
| capacity (the grid has to match supply of course)
|
| The average car in the UK does about 7,000 miles a year, in the
| US about 12,000. That's 230 miles a week in the US, needing
| about 76kWh of power. That's an average 450W draw. Homes used
| to use more than that keeping the lights on.
|
| No doubt about electric generation, we need far more. Not hard,
| not expensive either. Generating it at a constant rate is a
| different thing, but with 200 million mobile batteries
| connected to the grid that's a fair amount of power shifting
| that's available.
|
| For your power outage problems, I had one last night. They
| turned the power off because a vehicle crashed into the
| overhead lines. With no power my oil boiler doesn't work, so
| it's rather moot. Do US home typically have heating that can
| work without any electricity? Do they generate their own
| electricity to run pumps etc?
| [deleted]
| epistasis wrote:
| There is mooooore than enough spare grid capacity to deliver
| the electricity to electrify homes.
|
| We size the grid for peak capacity, not for average capacity,
| which means that there's a very low overall usage amount. And
| the big drivers of additional electricity, heating and
| transportation, are easily shiftable to non-peak times.
|
| And as we have smarter devices, and more time of use billing,
| load shifting will be easy.
|
| That said, having lots more battery storage inside buildings
| may be a great way to help shift peaks, and be far cheaper than
| upgrading lots of connections everywhere.
| ilyt wrote:
| >We size the grid for peak capacity, not for average
| capacity, which means that there's a very low overall usage
| amount. And the big drivers of additional electricity,
| heating and transportation, are easily shiftable to non-peak
| times.
|
| How's heating "shifttable" ? None of the usual systems to
| heat house does it (inertia is not the same)
| epistasis wrote:
| One of the biggest current methods of "demand response" is
| shifting HVAC loads from large commercial buildings: pre-
| heating or pre-cooling by a few degrees, and then lessening
| the HVAC activity during the peak time. This can be done at
| the residential level with devices like a Nest thermostat,
| and be overridable by the customer if they don't want to
| save the $0.25 or whatever.
|
| Water heating is even easier to implement this way, but
| requires smarter water heaters.
| treeman79 wrote:
| A recent cold snap left East coast with rolling black outs
| across a number of states.
|
| This is not California where you put on a warm jacket.
|
| You heat the home, find shelter somewhere or die.
|
| I kept getting notes to hold off on using appliances for a
| few days. Can imagine that if our areas heat was electric
| that would have collapsed the grid.
| flavius29663 wrote:
| Was that because of insufficient grid capacity, or not
| generating enough juice for everyone?
| hattmall wrote:
| In my town the temperature dropped to like 15 degrees on
| Christmas Eve and due to demand one of the substations
| exploded. There were about 10,000 people without power
| from 10am to 10pm on Christmas Eve. That additionally
| caused a lot of commercial buildings to have pipes burst
| which depressurized the water system. That caused main
| underground water lines to collapse and around 5k people
| had no water for 3 days. Similar events happened in a few
| other areas as well.
| digitalsushi wrote:
| I live in NH and my town was part of it ... a 70mph
| single gust of wind at the boundary of a storm came
| through and knocked down around 60 or so trees in our
| 4,000 person community. Many, many pathways were
| simultaneously interrupted.
|
| It is incredible that the power company got power
| restored in a 36 hour window, when half of it was
| Christmas Eve.
| flavius29663 wrote:
| "rolling blackout" is a very specific term used when
| grids are overloaded (usually when not enough generation
| is happening), which means that the operator is
| intentionally cutting power to some areas to save on
| energy. The areas keep changing (such that each area is
| out of power for just a few hours at a time), hence the
| name "rolling".
|
| The OP said that the eastern storm is proof the grid is
| not resilient enough because of rolling blackouts, which
| I find hard to believe without some more
| sources/reasoning.
| treeman79 wrote:
| I don't think you would accept any proof. As your own
| definition is good reasoning on why grid is over whelmed.
| dml2135 wrote:
| Just have a wood stove or fireplace for emergencies? Harder
| in cities but anywhere with detached homes, this doesn't
| seem like a difficult problem to solve.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| "Just"? We have a wood stove. We primarily heat with it.
| It's awesome, and I don't want anybody to think otherwise
| with what I'm about to say.
|
| It'll keep the place above 50F/10C starting from 62F/16C
| unattended for (generously) 8 hours. Less if it's cold.
| Is this primarily because the house is a log cabin with
| 50 year-old windows? Yeah, but lots of other houses are
| poorly insulated too. Once it hits 50F, a direct vent
| propane furnace kicks on to maintain that temperature.
|
| When you are around, it requires a certain amount of
| active participation that a regular furnace does not. Is
| it burdensome? No, but it behooves you to have a look and
| act every time you walk by if action is needed.
|
| It heats one room well, and the rest of the first floor
| poorly. We've added a 200mm case fan to circulate some
| air from the living room (where the stove is) to the
| kitchen. The kitchen will be a reasonable temperature
| several hours after the living room nonetheless. This is
| a roughly 600sf/60sm first floor. The second floor stays
| decidedly brisk, which is fine because we like sleeping
| with it cold. Obviously the circulation fan isn't running
| when the power is out.
|
| It takes up a bunch of space. Wood stoves require
| clearances for safety: You don't want to light the wall
| on fire because the stove is too close. And probably also
| a non-flammable hearth for many applications.
|
| The chimney needs an annual cleaning. You could argue
| that a rarely used chimney doesn't need to be cleaned of
| creosote on an annual basis, but the chimney sweep is
| also doing inspection of everything and making sure e.g.
| the cap is still attached and doing its job of keeping
| the birds out. I would not be excited by the idea of a
| whole subdivision worth of suburbanites lighting their
| wood stoves simultaneously for the first time in 5 years
| at some remove from their last chimney inspection.
|
| The exhaust is likely dirtier than a modern gas furnace.
| Especially while you're getting it going or have it
| damped down. There are EPA standards, sure, but there are
| a lot of old stoves out there that don't comply.
|
| Wood. We burn a couple cords annually, typically 2-ish.
| That's on the low side, in part because our wood stove is
| a little undersized (we didn't buy it), and you'd be
| hard-pressed to burn more in it if you tried. If you're
| only using your stove for an emergency, you surely don't
| need that much, but remember, we're really only heating
| 1200sf. Most houses in the US are somewhat larger to
| obscenely larger. A quarter of a cord isn't likely to
| last long in a cold snap with the power out. How much
| wood are we asking people to keep around for a
| (hopefully) once every five year occurence. Plus
| kindling. Plus tinder. Plus matches.
|
| A wood stove is like any other mechanical system. It
| works best when it's well-maintained and the user is
| well-practiced. It takes up an immense amount of space
| inside and out that's hard to justify paying for if you
| aren't using regularly, and it does an inferior job of
| heating a typical-size US house at best.
|
| Fireplaces, dare I say, are worse in literally every
| respect.
|
| We did not lose power the weekend before Christmas; we
| got nailed the weekend before. It was lovely; it was like
| a vacation put a stockpot on top to melt snow for water
| (the well pump doesn't run when the power is out).
|
| On the other hand, I missed my nephew's birthday because
| one of us had to keep the house warm. I also ate box mac
| n'cheese for a couple of meals. A wood stove that isn't
| specifically designed for cooking doesn't cook, and an
| electric stove isn't worth a shit when the power is out.
| Fortunately, we're hikers and have a backpacking stove.
| Unfortunately, it doesn't lend itself to particularly
| fancy cooking unless you've planned very specifically to
| cook on it.
| throwaway4aday wrote:
| A wood stove isn't a trivial thing to maintain or
| install. Sure we could require everyone to add one but
| that's a huge expense for a lot of people. After they
| have one, you need to manage your firewood which involves
| having enough for your needs delivered ahead of when you
| need it, you need to store it somewhere it will stay dry,
| you need to educate people on how to properly use the
| wood stove, etc. and that's not even considering the
| insurance implications and the guarantee that there will
| be a lot more housefires. Propane heat would be simpler
| but still costly to install.
| digitalsushi wrote:
| A wood stove is an excellent piece of infrastructure to
| protect a house that can freeze solid if the electricity
| goes out.
|
| When we lose power, we can't even flush the toilets
| because we have an electric well pump. (We should get a
| generator, perhaps). But I can always go outside and find
| some wood and keep the house from freezing and bursting.
| (I guess it also requires me to be here, to be
| transparent)
| treeman79 wrote:
| President is currently trying to ban gas stoves. Also I
| imagine save the tree groups would lose their minds on
| burning wood in more areas of the country. Air quality
| folks probably wouldn't be happy either.
| epistasis wrote:
| >Hold off on appliances
|
| I'm not familiar with your utility's challenges with
| delivering electricity, but it is a very solvable problem
| to greatly improve reliability.
|
| Vermont's Green Mountain Power does great work, perhaps you
| can fire you utility commission and get one that will reign
| in your utility's incompetence.
| mfer wrote:
| > There is mooooore than enough spare grid capacity to
| deliver the electricity to electrify homes.
|
| I'm going to disagree with this for three reasons.
|
| 1) We have places that have brown outs today. The grid isn't
| able to deliver. In other areas people have setups where
| power companies can cut (for periods of time) power to their
| air conditioner and that is used. There have been other areas
| where cables have run into issues with so much electricity
| going over it. The grid today runs into problems with the
| existing demands on it.
|
| 2) I've talked with people in some locales that only have 60A
| drops to their home. The local home and their local grid
| needs to be updated before everything can go electric.
|
| 3) When you read articles that say the grid can handle it
| they cover how the grid needs to be updated to handle all the
| things being electrified. So, they say the grid we have today
| can't cover it. Here's an example [1]. If it could handle it
| now there wouldn't be a need to it to be updated.
|
| [1] https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/can-the-
| nations...
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| The current problem is caused by growth and air
| conditioning demand. Slowing down the transition to EV's
| and electrify everything won't fix current problems nor
| will they significantly exacerbate the problems.
| bluGill wrote:
| You are confusing the grid with generation capacity. They
| are different. Generation capacity is where we have more
| need. For the most part the wires have enough capacity -
| though even then there are places that need upgrades.
| mfer wrote:
| I have a few reasons to believe the wires we have today
| aren't enough
|
| 1) I was recently talking with someone who lives in a
| community where homes have 60A service. The homes and
| last mile in places like that can't handle the draw
| people will need to electrify everything. 60A isn't
| enough.
|
| 2) Where I live there has been work to upgrade the wiring
| because it's not enough. It's not done yet and other
| communities I've been to have not been upgraded, yet.
| There are still areas where the current traveling through
| the lines today causes enough sag that I wait for
| something to break when things are at their peak.
|
| 3) Publications and communications from some power
| companies cover the need to upgrade the grid. Are they
| lying?
| bluGill wrote:
| Utilities have been upgrading their wires in many areas
| though.
| dboreham wrote:
| > 60A isn't enough
|
| Definitely. Homes in the US usually have 200A service (at
| 220V, so the 110V thing doesn't pertain).
|
| My place has 7.5KV distribution and a 50KVA transformer,
| for example.
| boringg wrote:
| Not at all. Grid is not ready for this it need significant
| capital upgrades.
|
| Yes its designed for peak load but the load profile is
| changing significantly. And no you absolutely cant just load
| shift away heating and transportation of residential homes.
| That isn't cost free and we don't even have the projects in
| place to manage that yet.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| My understanding is the grid in general is capable but the
| last mile transformer networks are not.
| epistasis wrote:
| Transportation is literally already battery, it is trivial
| to load shift charging, and in fact standard practice for
| anybody with electric transportation already!
|
| Heating is similarly trivial to load shift; heat or cool a
| little extra before the peak, stop during the peak, and
| then pick up afterwards. This goes for both space and water
| heating.
|
| Do you have any evidence about what upgrades are needed? I
| have a feeling that since you are so wrong about load
| shifting, that your intuitions about the grid may not be
| completely ok mark either. The grid upgrades I know about
| are for long distance transmission, not anything for
| distribution at the residential level, as we are discussing
| here.
| mfer wrote:
| Two pieces of evidence.
|
| 1) Places today have rolling brown outs at times in the
| year. Some power companies have seasons where they ask
| customers to limit their electricity use. Even peak load
| today can be a problem and the electrification of all the
| things means peak load will increase.
|
| 2) Articles that dig into this call out how the power
| grid will need to change to support the growth in
| consumption. When it's covered and experts speak they
| highlight the need for change to meet demand.
|
| Can you refute these?
| kurthr wrote:
| Yes, I can refute those.
|
| Those rolling brownouts happen in the summer when AC
| demand is high and the grid is barely capable of meeting
| peak demand. Vehicles do not need to charge at that time
| (when most people are at work or staying home) and could
| even provide some power to homes during that time. Most
| electric vehicles are charged at night (when rates are
| lower).
|
| Of course utilities would love to have people pay more
| maintenance, because they already have to do it and their
| profits are capped. But they have already built to peak
| demand and the only driver now for that peak is rising
| summer temperatures... because electric vehicles need not
| be charged then, and they are computer controlled so they
| know when to charge.
|
| In some localities residential solar is changing the
| exact time of peak load and often reducing daily peak
| load. The best argument is that electric vehicles require
| improvements to the utility writing is that electricity
| even more important so reliability of the network is more
| critical. But, well cell phones are pretty important.
| ilyt wrote:
| Dunno, in most of those cases it seems to be direct
| effect of companies saving on infrastructure maintenance
| and then shifting the problems on customers.
|
| I'd imagine if a given line can sustain peak heat AC
| usage it would also just be fine with flatter profile of
| heating the property.
| mfer wrote:
| > I'd imagine if a given line can sustain peak heat AC
| usage it would also just be fine with flatter profile of
| heating the property.
|
| We aren't talking about heat and AC. We also need to
| cover EVs, electric tools (like chainsaws), electric
| heat, electric stoves, and other things. There is a push
| to electrify all the things.
| vel0city wrote:
| > electric tools (like chainsaws)
|
| The amount of electricity shifting all gas powered tools
| like chainsaws and lawn mowers to electricity is less
| than a drop in the bucket compared to the other needs.
| Changing all my tools from gas to battery increased my
| electric bill in the peak growing season by like
| 2.5kWh/month, compared to a usual usage of ~2,000kWh/mo.
| Its also a pretty easy to time shift demand and doesn't
| need that 2.5kWh in an instant, that was over a whole
| month!
| mfer wrote:
| Now your nit picking on one thing on the list. EVs, home
| heat/AC, and stoves are all substantial (depending on how
| much you use the stove). When looked at on a macro scale
| there is an impact.
| vel0city wrote:
| > When looked at on a macro scale there is an impact.
|
| At a macro level, for the chainsaws and tools that's as
| if each household left a single 4W LED lightbulb turned
| on all the time. If that's enough to have to seriously
| re-think the grid we're already massively doomed. I
| better go and talk to the power company to get approval
| before I plug in another lamp at home!
|
| If you don't want someone nitpicking the equivalent of a
| 4W lightbulb on your list, don't include the equivalent
| of a 4W lightbulb on your list. It doesn't belong on a
| list comparing it with things like adding heat pumps,
| EVs, all electric home appliances like electric ranges
| and what not. All of those use literally hundreds of
| times more electricity, some during times which are hard
| to load shift or spread the load out over several hours.
|
| Even then, when well time-shifted and people aren't
| excessive in their load, adding an EV to a household's
| energy usage really doesn't rock the boat nearly as much
| as you'd think.
|
| The average car puts what, 14,000mi on it a year? Lots of
| EVs can get ~3.5mi/kWh, so that's 4,000kWh an average car
| would put on the grid over a year. So ~333kWh/mo. For a
| home using ~2,000kWh/mo before an EV, that's adding ~17%
| to their energy usage which can often easily be shifted
| and spread out to what is usually the lowest demand part
| of the day (late, late evening/early early morning). Its
| not like its doubling their usage to add an EV.
|
| A large chunk of the time when my EV charges the
| wholesale electricity rates in my area are negative.
| Often during the way off-peak hours the grid is nowhere
| near max utilization. True, this varies from location to
| location, but no grid is operating at like 95% generating
| and delivery capacity all the time.
|
| I do agree there will be some big changes that'll need to
| happen with electrification. Some places will have bigger
| changes than others, such as places that didn't even have
| AC before moving to heat pumps. But when it comes to
| places that already had to deal with a good amount of AC
| usage, switching from some other form of heating to heat
| pumps isn't really changing the peak usage that much. Its
| just keeping that high usage year round versus only in
| the summer.
|
| But honestly if everyone on my street added an EV to
| their home the power company would not need to make a
| single change. The grid is already planned to handle all
| these homes with their AC running in the peak summer days
| while running an electric stove and the rest of their
| home appliances on normal schedules during waking hours,
| having a 28A or 32A circuit running at the coolest hours
| of the day when everyone is sleeping (practically nobody
| is doing laundry at 3am while running the oven and stove)
| isn't going to upend the grid. I realize not everyone on
| the planet lives on my street, but my street isn't some
| fanciful magical place that exists only in dreams.
| eppp wrote:
| I don't know where you live but in my state (TN) most of
| the residential heating is electric already in my area. If
| the gas was turned off, the local coop wouldn't have any
| issues whatsoever meeting the demand.
| ajross wrote:
| > If you electrify everything (electric stove, electric car,
| air conditioner/heater) you are going to be hard pressed in
| many locales to be covered by at home solar.
|
| That's exactly backwards, though. The _problem_ [1] with ad-hoc
| local solar installations is that they're undersubscribed, and
| end up pumping juice back into the grid at inconvenient times
| where it can't be used. Being able to use that power locally is
| the goal, not something to be solved.
|
| [1] From the perspective of resource management. If you want to
| install solar as part of a prepper/off-grid effort you have a
| lot more design work to do and are absolutely going to have to
| inefficiently overprovision.
| vehemenz wrote:
| I think the article does a disservice to its thesis by focusing
| on California. Half the country lives in places where subzero
| temperatures are an issue. Not to mention, the rest of the
| country doesn't have the sunlight hours to make solar as
| viable, let alone the disposable wealth to upgrade their homes.
| Electric cars are still a long way from viability in most
| places, though it may not seem that way in California.
| malfist wrote:
| > country doesn't have the sunlight hours to make solar as
| viable
|
| California somehow gets more sunlight than the rest of the
| US? If I recall for physics, the amount of light depends on
| the latitude, not what state you're in.
| throwaway4aday wrote:
| Solar elevation, length of day, weather including clouds
| and snow. Those vary quite a bit.
| treeman79 wrote:
| There's a big difference between people trying to survive
| 40deg weather and 0deg weather when the grid has problems.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| You're ignoring clouds.
|
| It rains a whole lot more in Seattle than it does in Los
| Angeles.
|
| Edit: controlling (more or less) for latitude, it rains a
| whole lot more in New Orleans than it does in Los Angeles.
|
| Los Angeles averages 34.1 rainy days per year. New Orleans
| averages 115.1.
| vehemenz wrote:
| The midwest is significantly cloudier than the southwest,
| for example. Perhaps "effective sunlight hours" is a better
| phrasing.
| tzs wrote:
| Weather affects usable sunlight and weather patterns vary
| quite a bit as you across the US at a given latitude. See
| this map [1].
|
| [1] https://unboundsolar.com/solar-information/sun-hours-
| us-map
| epistasis wrote:
| Nearly every state in the us has very viable solar. The
| blockers are not economic, but regulatory from the utility
| and utility commission side.
|
| There are small solar arrays all over farms in Minnesota, for
| example.
|
| Solar is super cheap, and only getting cheaper. Cheap enough
| that one can start to size your array for the seasonal
| minimum. And as storage gets super cheap this decade, solar
| plus storage are a "baseload" combo.
| vehemenz wrote:
| These are good points, but I would add that there are not
| qualified installers of solar in most areas. I'm not sure
| if you'd chalk that up to regulation or economics, but it's
| probably a little bit of both.
| epistasis wrote:
| Yes, standard growing pains for an industry that is
| doubling in production roughly every four years.
|
| The rate at which the industry is scaling is absolutely
| amazing.
|
| But even as in the original post about electricians,
| skilled workforce labor remains one of the bottlenecks.
| throwaway4aday wrote:
| I'll believe this when I see successful startup utilities
| cropping up all over for the low capital investment of
| buying a field and filling it with solar panels. Hell, I'd
| settle for seeing the existing utility companies doing this
| en masse.
| epistasis wrote:
| The barrier to this isn't economics, it's the regulatory
| process for utilities, which are often regulated to be
| monopolies.
|
| And for that matter, this sort of building of solar
| projects by small players has been going on for years,
| very successfully, under a PPA model.
|
| In places where it's allowed for startups to build new
| generation resources and get compensated on the market,
| such as Texas' ERCOT, solar is a dominant force. The
| challenge is not the tech, the challenge is that too many
| people are doing it, draining the supply chain:
|
| https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2022/07/satellite-
| data...
| cinntaile wrote:
| I don't get what frozen pipes has to do with electrifying the
| home?
| mfer wrote:
| There is a push to move to electric heat generation in homes
| in some areas. If electricity goes out you loose heat. In
| many areas you can have weeks (even months) where the
| temperature is below freezing. Loose heat to your home and
| your pipes can freeze. When this happens they burst causing
| damage to the home.
| cinntaile wrote:
| Are you trying to say that the risk to lose electricity is
| bigger than the risk to lose the other heat sources?
| Wouldn't houses at risk have some sort of contingency
| measures in place such as insulated pipes, alternative heat
| sources,..?
| vel0city wrote:
| > Are you trying to say that the risk to lose electricity
| is bigger than the risk to lose the other heat sources?
|
| From my personal experiences, yes. Gas pipelines are
| practically always buried, electricity lines are often
| overhead and subject to storm damage. There have been
| dozens of times in my life where electricity is out but
| natural gas infrastructure is still available.
| mfer wrote:
| > Are you trying to say that the risk to lose electricity
| is bigger than the risk to lose the other heat sources?
|
| In many places electricity is transitioned via above
| ground lines. Natural gas is via buried pipes. The above
| ground lines have far more issues due to natural events
| (like storms or tree branches falling).
|
| In addition to this, electricity already hit peak loads
| in some areas due to other things drawing on it.
|
| Electricity is more likely to have outages than natural
| gas.
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| Pipes don't freeze immediately. A semi-decently insulated
| house will loose less than 10 degrees per day, so it would
| take a few days before pipes start freezing.
| SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
| Cool! Most of the houses in areas of the US where pipes
| freeze are quite old, many have effectively no insulation
| (the one I currently rent has no insulation at all). If
| heat goes out, it'll reach outside temperature within a
| day. People here in Buffalo recently died because a
| blizzard took out electricity, homes lost heat, and they
| froze (mostly when they tried to get to the "warming
| shelter" locations and were trapped, but trapped in a car
| without heat vs trapped in a house without heat is
| freezing all the same).
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| yeah, but those houses aren't the ones that are getting
| electric heat. that's almost all only new construction.
| (and if you are in a house like this you'll gain a lot
| more by replacing the windows than the heat)
| bluGill wrote:
| There are very few houses that have a heating system that
| works without electric. There are blowers/fans that turn on
| when when the furnace turns on. Most of the time the
| thermostat itself needs mains power to function (the
| thermostat gets power from the furnace, but ultimate it
| comes from the mains feed). It isn't even possible to have
| a modern 90+ efficiency furnace without mains as the
| exhaust is not hot enough to let convection take care of
| the exhaust.
|
| A gas furnace doesn't need much power though. A heat pump
| needs a lot of power, and resistance heating is worse.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Yes we will need more electrical generation. I have zero
| interst in solar panels on my house. I don't live in an area
| where they would be particularly useful; moreover, I don't want
| to own them, or to be responsible for maintaining them; I don't
| want large batteries in my house, or to be responsible for
| maintaining those. I don't want transfer switches or the
| responsibility of maintaining those. I want to pay the electric
| utility to deliver electricity to my house. Everything about
| generating it, transmitting it, storing it, I want to be their
| responsibility.
| irq wrote:
| The ability for power companies to deliver on this reliably
| is decreasing as our society grows increasingly low-trust.
| This is why you may want to take control of your own destiny
| and secure your own source of power.
| treeman79 wrote:
| It's insane radicals that try and shut everything down that
| are causing people to have to become more self-reliant.
|
| Most people I know have trouble remembering to change the
| oil in their car. Being in charge of electrical generation
| and giant batteries is not a good idea for many.
| ilyt wrote:
| Maybe electrical companies should be the ones funding
| that infrastructure, basically give us roof space for
| modest discount on electricity
| bell-cot wrote:
| Last I heard (a friend is a retired Electrical Engineer,
| with solar panels), there is a massive cost & complexity
| gap between "have solar panels on the roof of house" and
| "control your own destiny" (meaning you're able to run your
| house off-grid via solar panels).
|
| The former only needs (relatively) simple/stupid/cheap
| power & control electronics. Mimic the frequency & phase of
| the incoming AC from the utility, and let the panels run at
| 100%, 24x7, regardless of in-home power usage. Any
| solar_output > local_usage excess gets shoved back at the
| utility, any solar_output < local_usage shortage gets drawn
| from the utility, and dealing with that unpredictable yo-yo
| is 100% their problem and expense.
|
| The latter - even with _no_ batteries - requires a bunch of
| complex control electronics - because solar panels do _not_
| magically put out 120VAC at 60Hz, for any load short of
| their maximum current power output.
| turtlebits wrote:
| I'm not sure I agree with this. While off grid
| integration isn't seamless, I find that it's much easier
| to understand, equipment is plentiful and cheaper than a
| grid tie system.
|
| Smaller scale off grid systems can also be done with no
| installation/permitting costs if you set it up as a solar
| "ups" and put your critical loads on it. (Though I would
| at least have an electrician setup a critical loads panel
| and have your off grid inverter power that. )
| bee_rider wrote:
| I could see not wanting to deal with solar panels, but for
| example does a Powerwall require much maintenance? It isn't
| like lead acid where you have to top them off occasionally or
| whatever.
|
| And if you live somewhere with, like, reasonably first-world-
| ish infrastructure you only get an occasional blackout, which
| should only last like a day or so. Size a battery for a
| normal day of use or a couple days of rationed use, and then
| never have a power outage again.
| yboris wrote:
| Unrelated, but sharing just in case: I don't have electricity
| training, but last month I replaced my electric panel (upgrading
| to 30 circuits, keeping 100 amps) and it was easy: turn off every
| breaker (hiding face behind metal panel as is good safety
| strategy), turn off main, disconnect the meter, touch all
| dangling hot wires to ground (just in case, unsure if there's
| weird residual charge from something). Except for applying
| Noalox, everything is just routine - strip a bit of the wire,
| screw it into circuit breaker, pop it in. Make sure the panel is
| grounded to outside (as before), and it's done. Feels like a very
| easy task for most people - provided that the old wiring didn't
| have errors.
|
| Happy to hear feedback / thoughts on this.
| whitej125 wrote:
| Did you have to break a seal on the meter to get to the meter
| disconnect? If so, what are the implications of that?
| yboris wrote:
| Last time I had an electrician who was going to be doing work
| requiring disconnecting the meter - so I called, and it
| seemed like the easiest thing was for us to just cut the seal
| and someday later the electric company would come by to
| replace it.
|
| I live in a small town in Michigan; the amount of fuss
| probably depends on location & density.
| bluGill wrote:
| Call the electric company and they will send someone out to
| break the seal. After verifying you have the correct permits.
| If they trust you they will sometimes tell you to break the
| seal and call them when done.
| lisper wrote:
| Did you upgrade your wiring? Your old breakers were the size
| they were for a reason.
| yboris wrote:
| I didn't touch the wiring; just made sure to use the same
| exact amperage (though I bought all new breakers just in
| case, and upgraded one to an AFCI - Michigan doesn't require
| AFCI on _everything_ as the rest of the country seems to
| mandate). I checked the wire with wire gauge with my wire
| strippers to make sure 15amp wire is never behind a 20amp
| breaker.
| lisper wrote:
| Sorry, I mis-read your original post. I read it as
| "upgrading to 30-amp circuits" rather than what it actually
| says, "upgrading to 30 circuits." My mistake. (In
| retrospect I should have realized that 30-amp circuits were
| unrealistic.)
| mediaman wrote:
| He said he wasn't upgrading amperage, so wire size
| requirements for existing breakers should not change.
|
| It sounds like he was adding circuits which means he's
| running wires for those new circuits anyway.
| jsmith45 wrote:
| That's not a consideration here. They were just replacing a
| smaller 100A panel with a larger one. with more circuit
| spots. That is always allowed.
|
| As long as you you use a panel that accepts the same type of
| breakers, you can also re-use the existing breakers, unless
| code require upgrading to AFCI breakers. Otherwise you swap
| them for new breakers of the same rating. (Assuming the US:
| There are some inspectors who would ok a panel swap that
| reused the existing breakers without requiring upgrades, but
| technically upgrading is supposed to be required, unless your
| state amended out the AFCI requirements in the state version
| of the code). Note: technically many breakers can fit in
| competitor panels, but they are not legal. They were not
| designed nor tested to trip at proper ratings in those
| panels, and using them violate the labeling of the panel.
|
| Now obviously the reason for upgrading the panel is to add
| more circuits, and it is possible that these additional
| circuits if added would need more power than the 100A service
| can provide. To technically comply with code, you need to
| follow the rules to calculate the expected loading of
| existing circuits plus planned new circuits.
| DannyBee wrote:
| "That is always allowed."
|
| The last sentence you wrote is the killer. You are
| technically correct that changing the number of circuits in
| the panel is not itself disallowed. But .... you would also
| be hard pressed to get an AHJ to pass a number-of-circuits
| upgrade without knowing how many circuits you are planning
| on adding, and doing the feed sizing calculation to make
| sure you don't have to upgrade the incoming feed to support
| it.
| russdill wrote:
| Even with the same size breakers you have to be careful. Many
| circuits in the US are wired using a shared neutral. These
| circuits must not share the same phase and when rewiring an
| entire panel this seems like it'd be an easy mistake to make.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Multiwire branch circuits must be wired with tied breakers.
| If the person rewiring doesn't understand that this must be
| duplicated in the new panel, they definitely has no
| business upgrading their own panel.
| russdill wrote:
| This doesn't appear to have been the case until 2008, at
| least with multiwire branch circuits that supply separate
| outlets. Many if not most 100A panels with multiwire
| branch circuits will have been wired with breakers
| without ties.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I'll take your word for it, but I thought that at least
| as far back as 2002 it was required that the breaker for
| a MWBC trip both sides if one trips.
|
| I really don't like MWBCs myself, if I would've known the
| electrician for my house was going to utilize a bunch of
| them, I'd have happily paid him not to do that.
| cschneid wrote:
| The panel and the breakers in it are different things. If you
| get the right size breakers, that's fine, and even a good
| idea (breakers go bad over time from what I know. Maybe due
| to number of trips?).
|
| Putting in a new panel can get you more space, or just update
| to a currently maintained standard for breakers so you can
| find and put new ones in.
| aio2 wrote:
| If it is possible to repair anything quickly, it shouldn't be
| as big of an issue.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| Your willingness to repeatedly follow a process without
| deviation puts you into a much smaller group than the general
| population.
|
| Yes, the average person _can_ do it, but many won 't. And it
| will be innocent bystanders or firefighters or whatever that
| pay the ultimate price, not the sloppy guy or gal that saved a
| few dollars by doing it themselves.
|
| I wish that our building codes and permitting system had
| provisions for "competent amateurs", but how on earth would you
| do that?
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > I wish that our building codes and permitting system had
| provisions for "competent amateurs", but how on earth would
| you do that?
|
| What does this mean? Any "amateur" is allowed to do the work
| anytime they want (on their own home), and anyone can apply
| for a permit. They just have to pass the same inspection as
| everyone else. I do not see why the code (rules) would be
| different though, the principles of electricity and safety do
| not change.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| > Any "amateur" is allowed to do the work anytime they want
| (on their own home)
|
| This is not true across all US states, let alone other
| countries.
|
| I currently live in a jurisdiction that does allow home
| owners to do their own electrical work, but they have to
| pass a (demanding) exam before being licensed to do so. In
| my previous home state, home owners were not allowed - even
| if you did the work, a licensed electrician had to be "seen
| to be responsible".
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Interesting, I have not come across a US state that does
| not allow a homeowner to do it themselves, assuming they
| follow the same permitting and inspection requirements.
|
| Which states do not allow DIY electrical? A quick search
| is not coming up with any examples.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| It's not decided at the state level, at least not always.
| In Pennsylvania, Lower Merion Township will not permit
| homeowners do perform their own electrical or plumbing
| work.
| xkcd-sucks wrote:
| To be fair, a lot of "professionals" aren't super competent,
| even to the point of reading the manuals of things they're
| installing, and it's difficult to find people whose work
| isn't sloppy and half-assed. In these cases the only
| advantage hiring a contractor brings is their liability if
| something goes wrong, and their ability to deliver a whole
| crew on short notice.
| supertrope wrote:
| For simpler jobs like installing an EVSE you can do the grunt
| work of dragging cable and hire a pro to wire it to the panel
| and pull permits.
| esel2k wrote:
| This! I've build a wooden holiday house and we've installed
| all cables and lamps and plugs and at the end the
| electrician just verified and approved before connecting
| the main line.
| mmmBacon wrote:
| I think it's more than just electricians that we need. We need
| additional training for electricians so they understand how some
| of the newer technologies work. I bought a high end LED light
| fixture that had a more modern dimmer that ensures the LEDs won't
| flicker when dimmed. The dimmer wiring was completely different
| but well defined and standardized. I had a hard time finding an
| electrician that understood how to wire the fixture.
|
| I drew a schematic for them and I found out of 5 electricians
| only 1 could read the schematic.
| e_i_pi_2 wrote:
| I think the solution here is standardization - if you don't
| force a company to abide by some standard then they'll all
| create their own. We have the same issue with software - many
| programmers describe their job as creating the interface for
| different existing things. I think the issue here is that this
| isn't really the job of an electrician - they make sure the
| wiring in your house is safe but it's someone else's job to
| make sure their device complies with those expectations and is
| easy to plug-and-play with. Otherwise they'd need to train
| technicians to do the installation and most people don't want
| that
| encoderer wrote:
| It sounds like it was just a COVID-related delay during the
| height of the pandemic.
|
| I also own a home in Berkeley and had no trouble getting 2 quotes
| for a panel replacement, and work started less than a week after
| the first phone call. It cost $12k for the new 200 amp panel and
| 4 new outlets.
|
| Now, landscape contractors, that's been a harder nut to crack.
| sbradford26 wrote:
| That is pretty brutal on the cost. We live north of Boston is a
| decently high cost of living area but nowhere near California.
| I got the our main panel upgraded from 100 amp to 200 amp, the
| mast and meter socket replaced, and 4 new outlets in the
| basement for $2400 in 2021.
| encoderer wrote:
| Wow! Yeah, skilled trades are not cheap in the sf area. Also,
| restaurants and houses. Groceries used to be far more
| expensive than the rest of the country but my recent visits
| to family in the Midwest have me thinking they have almost
| caught up on that one.
| sbradford26 wrote:
| I also grew up in the Midwest and was just visiting home
| over Christmas. Groceries and other commodities seem to be
| similar prices, but everything else felt so cheap.
| mwattsun wrote:
| I was an electrician in the US Navy but couldn't get an
| electricians job out of the Navy without starting over. We could
| help this shortage if we did more to qualify military
| electricians as civilian electricians when they leave the
| military.
| linuxftw wrote:
| There is literally a program for this:
| https://usmap.osd.mil/navyRatings.htm
| mwattsun wrote:
| I'm glad to hear this! This didn't exist when I got out, but
| there was talk about it. Makes too much sense not to do.
| miguelazo wrote:
| Thank you for sharing this. Our local utility has a great
| scholarship/training program for underserved populations to
| become lineworkers. I'll share this with them in the hopes that
| they vastly expand it.
| miguelazo wrote:
| Downvoted for this-- amazing!
| user-extended wrote:
| *without raising salaries.
| supertrope wrote:
| Where there's a will there a way. In business will is
| proportional to remuneration. Skilled labor is not cheap and
| it's even more expensive in high cost of living areas.
| Commercial jobs pay more than residential. The impact of
| COVID-19 is driving up labor rates.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| Really buried the lede in the last paragraph imo:
|
| > According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the mean annual
| wage for an electrician in the U.S. is about $63,000 compared
| with an average of $58,000 for all occupations.
|
| They go on to point out it's higher in the Bay, and there's a
| wide range with many making more, but that's the _mean_ so that
| means many are also making less. As explained earlier in the
| piece those high-paying union jobs are not the ones where this
| new residential retrofit demand is being generated. $5,000 above
| the average wage is a joke for a regulated, skilled trade. This
| will have to change.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| We _need_ them but not enough to _pay_ them. The same for 1001
| other jobs...
| twblalock wrote:
| Even in the Bay Area, the pay is not all that great compared to
| other trades and other professions.
|
| The adoption of EVs, which are very common around here, has
| been very good for the owners of the companies that install
| them -- but the workers get paid the same hourly whether they
| are installing EV chargers or boring old normal stuff.
| claudiulodro wrote:
| It's complicated and depends on the state. AFAIK California
| doesn't require an electrician license to be an electrician, so
| salaries are actually not that great compared to other parts of
| the country (Bay Area possibly excluded). Oregon does require a
| license, and there is a wide range of salary depending on which
| part of the State you're in, but at the lowest a journeyman
| (comparable to junior dev fresh out of college) will be making
| ~$60,000/yr in the lower-cost parts of the state. In the
| Portland area, you'd be making more than $60k even as an
| electrician apprentice.
|
| Anecdotally, my dad is an electrician and makes roughly what I
| made as a senior developer except he's way more in-demand and
| can make a decent living in any city in Oregon (or Maine
| because they have a cross-licensing scheme with Oregon). I live
| a couple houses down from an electrician in a LCOL part of the
| state, and his house is nicer and larger than mine!
|
| Reference:
| https://www.oregon.gov/boli/apprenticeship/pages/trade-detai...
|
| I would have gone into the field, but the waitlist for
| apprenticeships was hundreds of people long during the Great
| Recession, and it's going to be difficult to start a new career
| at the bottom for me at this point.
| recycledmatt wrote:
| Copper too!
| zitterbewegung wrote:
| If we have near 2 percent unemployment it almost begs the
| question that do we need more people to seek employment ? And I
| don't mean large layoffs or pushing people to go into trades
| school or disregarding going to college. It seems like all of
| these articles are saying we need more X people doing Y but
| doesn't look at the whole picture that either people don't want
| to do it because of risk but instead just are doing another job.
| morphle wrote:
| Saul Griffith's books and lecture all predict the more than
| 25.000 electricians that are needed in the US and 40.000
| electricians the EU needs in the next 10 years to install the
| transition to 100% electrical for all homes and business. That is
| how we going to solve the climate crises.
|
| https://www.rewiringamerica.org
|
| https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saul+griffith&s...
| commandlinefan wrote:
| I thought I wanted to be an electrician growing up in the 80's,
| but my parents steered me away from it into the then-booming
| programming field. It does seem like programmers are doing a lot
| better than electricians these days.
| prottog wrote:
| If you're a programmer who owns a home, there's a lot of
| electrician stuff you can do around the house. ;-)
| mikeg8 wrote:
| Financially, yes. Physically? I'd bet good money most
| electricians are in much better physical shape. Pulling wire,
| climbing ladders, using hand tools... it's more physically
| demanding than people think. (My cousin is a journeyman
| electrician and I helped him wire the new house I built).
| anon23anon wrote:
| well no duh that's why I go to the gym every morning. Looked
| at the average salary these peeps are making. Most ppl on
| here are making double plus some in my area as developers.
| miguelazo wrote:
| Those average salaries aren't very representative.
| Especially in major cities. We'll see how long those
| inflated developer salaries last as the layoffs pick up and
| AI replaces a lot of functions.
| quenix wrote:
| We have gyms for this :)
| onewheeltom wrote:
| I thought this was about needing more electricians....
| jadbox wrote:
| There's a pricing factor to go all electric. Natural gas is still
| far cheaper for heating than using electric heaters.
| igor47 wrote:
| Usually true for resistance electric heating, but much less
| often true for heat pumps.
| api wrote:
| Maybe we can retrain the vast number of auto mechanics and gas
| station people we will no longer need?
| ilyt wrote:
| EVs still need service, just different kind. Sure, some will be
| fired but in most cases it will be just getting new skillset
| required for EVs
| api wrote:
| They overall need a lot less service than gas cars. No oil
| changes, far fewer moving parts, simple or no transmission,
| etc.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| frankus wrote:
| I'm curious if there is some productivity-improving tech for
| electricians waiting to be invented. The following will be super
| North-America-centric, but:
|
| Right now you have to fasten a box to the wall structure, cut the
| wire so that about 8" can make its way into the box, strip the
| outer insulation and insert it into the box, strip at least some
| of the individual conductors, and then splice (by twisting and
| using wire nuts, or less commonly using a press-fit dingus) the
| ones that need to be spliced.
|
| You then repeat that for every outlet (which in electrician-speak
| includes lamps and such) on the circuit. Then repeat that for
| every circuit. You are now ready for your "rough" electrical
| inspection (the one before the in-wall wiring is covered).
|
| Then before the final inspection you have to individually connect
| each conductor to (usually) a screw on the actual device before
| cramming^H^H^H^H^H^H carefully folding the wire back into the box
| and screwing the device in place, followed by screwing the cover
| in place.
|
| Repeat for every outlet in the unit and you are ready for your
| final inspection.
|
| What I'm picturing is a special box that can insulation-
| displacement-crimp right onto the wire (probably with some giant
| pliers. On the inside it has some sockets that the eventual
| device plugs straight into, possibly with a sort of optional
| middleware layer that can reconfigure the connections for less
| common hookups.
|
| So you crimp all the boxes to the wire and fasten them to the
| wall structure and you're ready for the rough inspection.
|
| Then after the walls are covered you plug in the devices directly
| for all of the common configurations (e.g. just a receptacle in a
| string of receptacles) and fiddle with some kind of middle layer
| for the oddball configurations (e.g. a duplex receptacle where
| one of them is switched).
|
| As an alternative to the "middleware" maybe there are a
| collection of different boxes that are pre-configured for the
| circuit arrangement in question (not unlike plumbing components
| are today).
| keltor wrote:
| There have been attempts to use modular electrical systems, but
| consumers want choice and flexibility and governments at least
| in the US want those inspection $$$$s.
| bluGill wrote:
| You need to invent it, and make it cost effective. While there
| is a lot of labor, I'm not sure if you can actually invent
| something better that is also safe and will last for decades. I
| welcome you to figure it out though.
| throwaway4aday wrote:
| Implementing this would cost a lot more and would need uptake
| from all of the hardware manufacturers plus building code
| changes. The productivity improving tech you're looking for is
| called an apprentice though opinions differ on how much time
| they save/waste.
| frankus wrote:
| I mean apprentices are great, but we just got done reading an
| article about how there's a shortage of workers in the field.
|
| You can either train more workers to do it the old way or
| invent new ways that require fewer workers (or less highly-
| skilled ones).
|
| Kind of how PEX plumbing (whatever its drawbacks) has made it
| much simpler to plumb a house than it was when soldering
| copper fittings onto copper pipes was the norm (let alone
| threaded connections _shudder_ ).
| VLM wrote:
| So, essentially "power over thicknet ethernet". Nobody liked
| that tech. "Worked in the lab, and whenever it breaks we can
| blame the user for improper abuse" was such a fiasco it
| resulted in the world being re-networked in twisted pair, which
| ironically is installed very much like legacy power outlets...
|
| Also the only way to replace the outlet would seem to be to rip
| out the entire wall and splice in new cables like a complete
| do-over which seems a bit extreme although profitable, or do a
| high resistance fire causing re-crimp. This is "OK" for
| receptacles that last the life of the house, if the life of the
| house is short enough, but wall switches would be essentially
| unreplacable.
|
| One idea that might save money is giving up on copper switched
| wall switches. Feed the wall switch 12 volts and let them speak
| zwave to control things.
| frankus wrote:
| What I'm proposing is that the electrical box (the blue
| plastic thing that's essentially non-removable in current
| practice) would have the vampire connection to one or more
| cables passing into/through it, and the actual device
| (outlet, switch, light fixture) would plug into some
| conductors at the back of the box. So you could replace
| outlets more easily than you can today.
|
| The boxes would come in a few varieties based on the number
| of cables that could pass into/through them. Again I'm
| picturing some kind of intermediate layer between the box and
| the device that could accommodate less-common connection
| arrangements, but maybe you lose a bit of flexibility in the
| name of progress.
|
| The connections wouldn't have to be 100% reliable, but at
| least as reliable than hand-twisted wires and wire nuts (also
| AFCI breakers could eliminate a lot of the fire risk).
| mech987 wrote:
| insulation-displacement-crimps are not a good idea for the
| relatively high amounts of power coming through household
| wiring. Not much contact area, lots of potential for high
| resistance and heat and oxidation at the contact point. I
| wouldn't trust them.
|
| Then again, wire nuts aren't that great either.
| frankus wrote:
| Maybe insulation displacement isn't exactly the way to go,
| but some kind of machine that quickly secures a connection
| onto a cable, either inline or at the end. And then create
| modular electrical boxes that those connections can connect
| to (probably somewhat permanently).
|
| It could even start out as basically a fancy wire stripper
| and a box with push-in connections that switches/outlets
| subsequently plug into.
| frankus wrote:
| Or even something as simple as studs that come pre-drilled at
| outlet and switch height (they already come pre-cut to slightly
| less than 8 feet to be the right height when installed between
| top and bottom plates).
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| What purpose would this serve? A drill and drill bit is a
| very common, quick, and easy to use tool. If you were
| screwing a box to a stud, I do not think you even need a pre
| drilled hole. You can just use any wood screw.
|
| Also, outlet/switch boxes get nailed to the studs during
| construction, and modifications to those boxes are fastened
| to the drywall, in my experience.
| georgeoliver wrote:
| Holes for the wires/cables, not the screws.
| rufusroflpunch wrote:
| We're not going to electrify everything.
| 5544ffee wrote:
| I considered beginning an electrician apprenticeship because I
| just can't sit in a cubicle 40 hours a week anymore. I'm still
| young enough that the physical aspects aren't an issue, but the
| overall working conditions, pay and benefits sound terrible.
|
| I think I'd rather just learn to repair electronics.
| LesZedCB wrote:
| same. if i could find something that's like 50/50 or some other
| ratio with a similarly scaled pay i think i could make the jump
| TheCapn wrote:
| Industrial Controls / Instrumentation Tech
|
| Biggest downside is the field environments you can find
| yourself in. Depending on your industry you can be in some
| horribly smelly/disgusting facilities or dangling off catwalk
| way above ground trying to adjust calibration on some silly
| sensor. There's good ones though too.
|
| I'm a Software Eng in the industry so I don't ever really
| have much for field duty, but I work with several coworkers
| who are able to get their hands dirty when we're doing a site
| install: wiring panels, tracing faults, installing/adjusting
| sensors.
|
| But talking about pay scale is a bit iffy based on where
| you're at now. I don't make FAANG wages doing what I do, but
| I do make somewhere in the 80th+ percentile for my
| geographical location (Saskatchewan) so its all relative
| LesZedCB wrote:
| thanks, this is great info! i will look into this deeper
| esel2k wrote:
| Where are you from that have apprenticeship? I am from
| Switzerland and this is a common career choice with 16 to do 4
| years and be a certified technicians.
|
| But as others have mentioned in other comments: Working for a
| company taking a big cut to install cables at peoples home with
| all the weirdness (smelly place, not at home, unfriendly, wrong
| description/tool) is not for me. I would suggest going straight
| with the goal to create a company asap and build an empire.
| mfer wrote:
| Electricians are a great example of skilled trades that are in
| demand.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Also impossible to outsource overseas.
| cesarb wrote:
| > Also impossible to outsource overseas.
|
| I wonder how long before robotic telepresence makes these
| also outsource-able.
| ilyt wrote:
| You can buy ready-made electric boxes so _sorta_ ?
| user-extended wrote:
| You can import more.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Check with the IBEW.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Brotherhood_of_
| E...
| photonbeam wrote:
| Are there visas available for those in blue collar trades
| like this? I'm wondering if they're also protected from
| immigration related market forces on wages
| floren wrote:
| Electrical wiring practices differ from country to country.
| Anyone coming in on a visa would need some retraining if
| only to learn the local regulations.
|
| You can sling Javascript the same way in Chennai or in
| Cleveland, but I wouldn't want a UK electrician wiring my
| house in California.
| [deleted]
| pjc50 wrote:
| Probably not, but the main issue would be that overseas
| certifications aren't valid. I'm sure it would be quicker
| to recertify / learn the local regulations than to start
| from scratch, but it's not free.
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