[HN Gopher] U.S. safety agency to consider ban on gas stoves ami...
___________________________________________________________________
U.S. safety agency to consider ban on gas stoves amid health fears
Author : jackallis
Score : 39 points
Date : 2023-01-09 13:45 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bloomberg.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bloomberg.com)
| NDizzle wrote:
| Ahh yes, switch everyone to electric power when everything is
| going green and the rolling brown/blackouts are spreading across
| the nation and world.
|
| No thanks, let's keep our gas.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| The thing I find shocking is how many US homes I've been in that
| have a gas stove AND "fake" oven hood (essentially it filters and
| recirculate, instead of venting outside, which does little to
| nothing for gas fumes).
|
| If they decide against outright banning them, there must be a
| push during inspection to associate a gas stove with a real oven
| hood, and ideally some consumer education that: "Gas on, vent fan
| running" or similar.
|
| If a gas stove was invented today, if you compare it to
| regulation for other gas appliances (specifically how the fumes
| are vented), it would almost certainly have an interlock wherein
| a hood turns itself on to auto-vent outside.
| foobarian wrote:
| I find it fascinating how different the cooking is in Europe
| vs. US. at least in my limited experience. I've seen multiple
| apartments across Italy where the kitchen is a small, separate
| chamber with a door where the resident will get a skillet red
| hot, drop a piece of meat on it, and open the window. This
| would be unthinkable in the US - it would set off every single
| smoke detector in the house. Maybe it's not cause and effect,
| but just an emergent state - it's difficult to do this here so
| on average it doesn't happen? Or people tend to have grills
| outside for this sort of thing? I don't know.
|
| In our house the stove is located centrally and I dread to
| think how we could retrofit an exhaust for a true venting hood.
| All we have is a fake hood with a grease filter above the
| stove.
| amluto wrote:
| Sometimes I'm amazed that gas stoves aren't regulated for fire
| safety much more heavily:
|
| Gas stoves quickly ignite any kindling near the flame. Electric
| (radiant) stoves can ignore things but it's slower and there's
| more shouldering first. It's hard to start a fire with induction,
| _especially_ temperature controlled induction, although the
| latter is not widely deployed.
|
| A child or careless adult can easily turn a stove on by accident.
| A gas stove left on is an extreme hazard. An electric stove left
| on is a mild hazard. An induction stove left on is only a hazard
| at all if there's cookware on it, and it's the safest of the
| three.
|
| A gas stove that's on but not burning will release explosive gas.
| I've never seen one with a credible safety feature to prevent an
| explosion.
|
| Not to mention:
|
| Gas stoves are incredibly inefficient. Electric is pretty
| inefficient too. Induction is highly effective.
|
| And gas stoves apparently pollute quite badly. Sure, a good vent
| will mitigate it, but then you need makeup air to avoid other
| issues, and you still lose conditioned air.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| > especially temperature controlled induction, although the
| latter is not widely deployed.
|
| What are you talking about? Even the most basic units _are_
| temperature controlled. How else could they work if you operate
| them in modes where you tap in the desired temperature, and it
| shows in the display? I 've never seen any which didn't have
| that as an option. Since a decade, or so.
| amluto wrote:
| We're talking about _ranges_ , right?
|
| I've seen the hot pot kind that let you set a temperature in
| ~20 degree increments are are not particularly accurate. I've
| seen the Control Freak, which is quite accurate and precise
| if the pan is appropriate (mostly flat enough in the bottom).
| There are a few household ranges that talk to Bluetooth
| sensors. There's the Njori Tempo, which doesn't exist yet.
|
| Beyond that there are bunch of regular induction ranges, on
| which you set a power level on an arbitrary scale from 1 to
| 10 or maybe 1 to "boost".
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| Maybe it's a regional market thing. I speak from a german
| POV. But I've seen these things appear in the nearer
| 'neighborhood', since at least a decade. Also mentions in
| mass media. Even the stuff you call 'range' has these
| options, in addition to turning knobs with fixed settings.
| I started with a single 'hot-pot' and that was/is accurate.
| Still keeping that as a spare. I mean, just look at the
| stuff Ikea is offering, AFAICT they all have it. If
| accurate I can't tell, but I've heard no complaints from
| people I know, who do have them.
|
| So... _shrug_?
| sschueller wrote:
| Induction is very cool but what sucks is touch flat buttons on
| the top surface of most induction stove top that either trigger
| when you spill something or don't trigger when your fingers are
| wet. Why can't we just keep the knobs that worked for decades
| and combine that with the new tech?
|
| This is what prevents the "average person" from going with
| something new when they are in the market for a replacement.
| sbradford26 wrote:
| There are induction cooktops that have knobs. I believe one
| of the Frigidaire professional models has knobs on it. I
| think the main reason why induction cooktops typically don't
| have buttons is because it allows the surface to be used like
| more countertop.
|
| Frigidaire Professional Cooktop:
| https://www.frigidaire.com/Kitchen-
| Appliances/Cooktops/Induc...
| jimhefferon wrote:
| We just bought a replacement for a gas stove, out of concern
| for fumes and some other reasons. When I asked about controls
| that are not touch buttons I was told that is hard to find.
| The other point is that induction models were much more
| expensive (for our choices, 4k vs 1k).
| amluto wrote:
| This is an unconventional but excellent option:
|
| https://www.breville.com/us/en/products/commercial/cmc850.h
| t...
| jimhefferon wrote:
| Thanks for the link. I'll note that this single burner
| costs half again what our four burners plus oven costs,
| though. I guess I'm just not that interested. But thank
| you.
| peteradio wrote:
| You'd want a vent cooking on any of those ranges.
| amluto wrote:
| Yes, but you don't have to use it for low temperature
| cooking.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Even if you were using electric you need proper ventilation.
| It's amazing how many people think an electric stove somehow
| makes a kitchen hood unnecessary.
| [deleted]
| SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
| A number of people in Buffalo, NY, recently lost power for
| several days due to a blizzard. The city had to clear snow with
| front-end loaders and dump trucks, which took about 4 days.
| Without power, many apartments had no heat (no way to run a
| blower motor for air heat, electronic control of the boiler, heat
| pump, or other electric-dependent heating). A number of people
| were able to survive by heating pots of water on gas stoves and
| letting it sit to get a bit of heat. Not the use of gas you want
| to have, but invaluable if it's all you've got!
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.md/HkO2p
| lm28469 wrote:
| God forbid we regulate sodas, cigarettes, junk food though. Those
| deadly gas stoves are definitely a top priority and a menace to
| our society !! "health fear" lmao give me a break
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Subsidize air-filters as a short/medium term solution, because
| this also solves the issue of plastic dust being breathed in from
| all the fabrics, carpets, appliances, couches, rugs, shoes,
| shirts, etc.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| PM2.5 Air Filters do not remove the gasses and VOCs released
| from burning natural gas.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| They could incorporate desiccant column subsidy: https://www.
| clariant.com/en/Solutions/Products/2020/11/09/21....
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221260901.
| ..
| Scoundreller wrote:
| As a resident in a newer condo build, I'd just like windows
| that open more than 2".
|
| I have a corner unit where the windows on one side don't open
| at all.
|
| I guess it cuts down on their building-wide HVAC expenses by
| treating the building as airtight and thinking filtration and
| powered-venting will solve all problems.
| falcolas wrote:
| Air filters are incapable of filtering out NO2.
| newbee123 wrote:
| This whole article smells. Trumka has been a union politico most
| of his career, not a science or health & safety guy. The paper
| they cite is a meta-study, and it's curious that the meta is
| inspiring more action than any of the original papers[0]. That,
| and the primary researcher is from an "environmental" nonprofit
| (rocky mountain institute) rather than a health & safety one, and
| the board of this nonprofit consists mostly of private equity &
| energy guys[1].
|
| [0] https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75
|
| [1] https://rmi.org/about/board-of-trustees/
| giardini wrote:
| But what does it smell _like_ - Southern BBQ, fish, lobster,
| shish kebab, etc.? mmmm!
| newbee123 wrote:
| Smells bad.
|
| Had a similar experience buying an "eco-friendly" crib
| mattress. "Made with soy", green seal of approval from some
| eco non-profit. Dig a little deeper, turns out to be made of
| (flammable, off-gassing, non-biodegradable) polyurethane foam
| --soybean oil was just the feedstock. Checked out the eco
| non-profit's website... Turns out everyone on the board is a
| chemical industry lobbyist.
|
| This natural gas story has the same structure. Fund a non-
| profit to cherry-pick papers into a new metastudy, bribe a
| few politicians or an agency head to put the force of law
| behind it, and as soon as the ball starts rolling, place a
| few bets, profit.
| mstef wrote:
| what a coincidence this article was just 4h ago linked here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34308734 and is similar
| policymaker influencing pseudo science conflating correlation and
| causation...
| smileysteve wrote:
| I moved into a brand new house of which the only stovetop option
| was gas, in part because of marketing dollars from our local
| monopoly granted utility.
|
| Why was induction not an option? And now to upgrade, I'm going to
| have to have a 240v line installed to the location.
| driverdan wrote:
| You chose to buy it that way. Why didn't you make installing a
| 240v plug a concession in the contract?
| mhb wrote:
| So you should have bought a different house? Or what?
| multiplegeorges wrote:
| You can definitely get 120v induction cooktops. There's no need
| for 240v.
| smileysteve wrote:
| i do have a single burner induction unit, but to have 5 or 6
| burners you need more watts from 240
| falcolas wrote:
| Running 5-6 burners concurrently is definitely a bit of a
| niche case, and would probably justify the higher amperage
| socket. But it's important to note that it's niche, most
| folks won't use more than 2.
| Loughla wrote:
| Two questions:
|
| What about LP ranges, which are pretty common as well?
|
| What about proper ventilation systems instead? Most people have
| range hoods that vent into the same room (doing nothing but
| removing the largest particulates). Why not place exterior vents
| into building codes, instead of eliminating gas ranges?
|
| You'll pry my gas range from my cold, dead hands. Cooking on fire
| is, for me, just better than cooking on electric.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| > Why not place exterior vents into building codes, instead of
| eliminating gas ranges?
|
| If you make a law thats says "only allowed gas stoves eith
| exterior ventillation", you will be 90% of the way to banning
| them.
|
| The ordinary domestic extractor is not able to get rid of
| majority of the No2 and other emissions
| jimhefferon wrote:
| Not what I thought. Can you please provide more information?
| multiplegeorges wrote:
| Have you tried an induction range? Same power (or more, imo, i
| was shocked at how quickly I could boil a pot of water) than
| gas and very small power steps for great and accurate
| temperature control.
|
| If this ban goes through, I expect induction to take over in
| the upper range of products. It'll bring the prices WAY down
| and it'll be much cheaper to get new pots than it is to install
| a proper outdoor-venting range hood.
| Steltek wrote:
| Can you recommend a large cast iron griddle that 100% works
| on induction? That's no joke the biggest sticking point for
| us right now. The closest we can find is "square frying pan"
| style. The 2 Lodge griddles are double sided, which isn't
| guaranteed to work on induction because the bottom surface
| doesn't sit flush with the glass.
|
| You can't replace pans when there are no induction friendly
| replacements.
|
| Edit: Edit: Nevermind, I was wrong.
| sbradford26 wrote:
| Basically any cast iron pan should work. Also the bottom of
| the pan doesn't need to be perfectly flush with the glass.
| I know people who leave silicone mats on their induction
| cooktops while cooking so that their cast iron pans don't
| scratch the glass
| Steltek wrote:
| I believe there is a misunderstanding of the problem. The
| cast iron griddles of concern are "reversible" and can
| sit higher above the surface, certainly higher than the
| effect of a silicone mat[1]. Anecdotes from others who
| have tried this combination show that success can be hit
| or miss.
|
| No one appears to make a large, flat bottomed cast iron
| griddle. If I could find such a thing, we would have
| already bought an induction stove.
|
| I am not worried about my other cast iron pans.
|
| [1]: https://www.lodgecastiron.com/product/double-play-
| reversible...
| aoeusnth1 wrote:
| I still don't think that should be a problem. The
| electric fields will still be picked up by such a wide
| surface area.
| sbradford26 wrote:
| Ahhh didn't realize they were reversible like that. Makes
| sense that those would cause issues.
| SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
| I tried it just now with a countertop induction hob (I
| don't normally use it, it's for when I run out of burners
| on the tiny stove my current apartment has) and a similar
| reversible griddle[1], and it heats up without issue.
| Both sides work fine.
|
| [1] https://www.lodgecastiron.com/product/chef-
| collection-revers...
| peteradio wrote:
| Induction has major issues with hot spots, if you are boiling
| water you don't care, otherwise you might.
| thatcherc wrote:
| Here's another article that seems to be a summary of the
| Bloomberg article (but without the paywall) - [0]
|
| The ban under consideration seems to be a ban on the _sale_ of
| new gas stoves, although I don 't think the article actually says
| that explicitly.
|
| [0] - https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/us-safety-
| agency-...
| 2devnull wrote:
| Important clarification.
| Saoshyant wrote:
| That's usually how these things go. No one is going to
| everyone's house to remove their stoves, regardless of how
| accurate the claims of their dangers.
|
| Instead, they abolish the sale of new gas stoves and, as the
| old ones stop working with age, eventually they disappear
| altogether.
|
| I believe that's how there's still old buildings with an
| asbestos treatment or old water pipes made out of lead kind of
| all over the place. It was widespread at first, then the issues
| became known, then they were forbidden from being sold, and
| eventually the existing old ones are replaced as opportunity
| allows.
| 2devnull wrote:
| Since low income people don't occupy new construction, and
| given that gas stoves last for many decades, this is
| legislation that won't have any impact for another 20 or 30
| years? Besides the impact on wealthy foodies who want good
| stovetops in the kitchen remodels?
| dang wrote:
| Related ongoing thread:
|
| _I measured the pollution from my gas stove_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34316613 - Jan 2023 (69
| comments)
|
| Also:
|
| _Gas stoves are more hazardous than we've been led to believe
| (2020)_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946 - June
| 2022 (122 comments)
|
| _What a gas stove ban means for restaurants_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31603850 - June 2022 (592
| comments)
|
| _My best estimate is gas stoves decrease life expectancy by 53
| days on average_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30275953
| - Feb 2022 (117 comments)
|
| _How bad is my gas stove?_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935939 - Jan 2022 (520
| comments)
|
| _Cities try to phase out gas stoves but cooks are pushing back_
| - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874912 - July 2021 (481
| comments)
|
| _Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers of gas
| stoves_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25332332 - Dec
| 2020 (343 comments)
| potbelly83 wrote:
| Not sure if this has been mentioned, but during the Buffalo
| blizzards you heard a lot of stories of people using their gas
| ovens to keep warm as the electric had gone out.
| wankle wrote:
| "In a letter to the agency in December, lawmakers including
| Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey and Representative Don Beyer of
| Virginia, both Democrats, urged action and called gas-stove
| emissions a "cumulative burden" on Black, Latino and low-income
| households that disproportionately experience air pollution. "
|
| Most of my life I've live in homes with gas stoves, I'm white,
| what does race have to do with it? I'd guess > 90% of the
| entirety of stoves in Texas are gas.
| UtopiaPunk wrote:
| Here's a different article that links to sources to support the
| claim: https://www.vox.com/energy-and-
| environment/2020/5/7/21247602...
|
| ==============
|
| Lower-income households are more likely to have more people
| living in smaller spaces, with less ventilation. That puts them
| at greater risk of unsafe NO2 exposure, as does the
| heartbreaking practice among low-income homeowners, uncovered
| in several studies, of using their gas stoves as a source of
| heat to supplement weak or broken furnaces.
|
| Lower-income, African American, and Hispanic children already
| suffer asthma at higher rates than the national average, mainly
| because they are more likely to live near sources of outdoor
| air pollution (like roads and industrial facilities), which
| makes them more vulnerable to sources of indoor air pollution.
| Another 2018 study found that asthma costs the US $82 billion a
| year in "medical expenses, missed work and school days, and
| deaths," all of which fall disproportionately on the most
| vulnerable.
| [deleted]
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| I suppose it's possible to infer that Black and Latino folks in
| the US tend to be lower-income and thus they tend to live in
| smaller homes (more inhabitants per sqft) and perhaps thus have
| worse indoor air quality overall compared to their White or
| Asian counterparts.
|
| But yeah, I still don't think it's necessary to bring race into
| it. If your science holds up and gas stoves are significantly
| linked to childhood asthma, you've got a good argument for
| phasing them out. If the science doesn't hold up, then you
| don't.
| derekp7 wrote:
| But the low income housing is also typically more drafty too,
| isn't it? So that would lead me to believe that there would
| be less indoor pollution built up from the range. Unless it
| is turned on for heating purposes (i.e., boiling a pot of
| water to get humidity in the air, etc).
| falcolas wrote:
| Drafts do not move quickly (or evenly). A "drafty house"
| could still take an hour or more to exchange all that air.
| IIAOPSW wrote:
| I believe the keyword here was "disproportionately". No one is
| denying that many white people also own gas stoves or for that
| matter breath exhaust fumes from a nearby highway or have an
| unfortunate encounter with a police officer or any number of
| commonplace societal ills. As a corollary, no one is suggesting
| to apply a fix to non-whites only.
| 2devnull wrote:
| How many low income people can afford Viking ranges? They are
| ubiquitous in wealthier households, at least those with good
| taste.
| deepsquirrelnet wrote:
| How many of those have exterior stove vents? Probably a
| disproportionate number given the installation cost.
| 2devnull wrote:
| Maybe exterior vents should be required? Does cooking on
| electric not impact indoor air quality?
| falcolas wrote:
| Compared to burning gas, no. Burning natural gas produces
| a lot of byproducts of that combustion - many of which
| are not healthy for humans in concentrations produced by
| gas burners - which is why it's a problem.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| It does. The difference is what they're both
| contaminating air with. You can improve air quality from
| cooking food using common PM2.5 filtering (e.g. "fake
| vent hoods", air purifier, furnace filter, etc).
|
| Natural gas, when burned, releases gas/VOC byproducts
| that PM2.5 filters cannot remove and while Activated
| Carbon can remove some of it, it doesn't scale well
| enough to be a solution (just in terms of cost alone, but
| also in terms of Activated Carbon's lifecycle).
|
| I'm all for outdoor vents to be clear, even for
| electric/induction. I'm just pointing out that natural
| gas cooking has all the same downsides as any other food
| cooking does but with a whole host of additional ones
| that are far harder to mitigate.
| 2devnull wrote:
| Can you quantify this?
|
| And, how does it compare to say water heaters and other
| sources of indoor gas use?
|
| My understanding is that it's a negligible concern. So
| I'd love actual numbers if you have them or know where I
| can find them.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| > And, how does it compare to say water heaters and other
| sources of indoor gas use?
|
| They're required to vent outside.
|
| > My understanding is that it's a negligible concern.
|
| You're responding to an article saying that it isn't a
| negligible concern.
| 2devnull wrote:
| So no?
| Someone1234 wrote:
| It doesn't feel like you're trying to have a good faith
| discussion. There's no point in my restating what the
| linked article says nor multiple of the other sources
| provided all throughout this thread.
| westmeal wrote:
| That sentence made me lose some of my braincells
| throwaway82388 wrote:
| I'm fairly certain that I've yet to visit an upper middle class
| household without a high end gas range, albeit hooded. Surely
| this disproportionally affects the foodies and amateur chefs of
| the world.
| slowmovintarget wrote:
| Got to ban it for everyone to be fair.
| yellow9 wrote:
| [dead]
| tantalor wrote:
| The point is those communities have higher rates of asthma and
| pollution exposure, and banning gas stoves (might) reduce it,
| by reducing the risk for everyone.
|
| That's easier to do than fix the underlying problem that causes
| that increased asthma risk.
| [deleted]
| nivenkos wrote:
| The Democrats have to bring race-based politics and IdPol in to
| everything.
|
| But I think the bigger issue is whether current users even want
| to make the switch, since gas is often cheaper than
| electricity.
|
| This slowed down adoption of induction cookers a lot in the UK
| for example.
| Spivak wrote:
| You have it backwards. The Dems aren't bringing race into it,
| they're framing the issue in a way more likely to garner
| support from their fellow Democrats and base who care about
| helping marginalized communities.
|
| You see this a lot with Supreme Court cases where the legal
| teams form their arguments specially to be persuasive to a
| specific swing judge.
| willcipriano wrote:
| What's the term for someone who is motivated by putting
| things into a racial context? A racist?
| Spivak wrote:
| It's like you tried to find the worst faith
| interpretation of what I said.
|
| A: You have a group of people who, broadly speaking, are
| motivated to address systemic racial and economic
| inequality.
|
| B: You will have better luck getting someone on-board
| with your piece of legislation if you frame it in the
| context of an issue they care about.
|
| A + B: Hello senator, this bill I'm proposing about gas
| ranges will help address systemic racial and economic
| inequality because...
|
| The idea that you think A is talking about a group of
| racists is quite literally insane.
| willcipriano wrote:
| "People are being harmed!"
|
| "Yawn, what color are they?"
|
| "White."
|
| "Oh that's a serious issue then!"
| [deleted]
| derekp7 wrote:
| I grew up cooking on gas stove. The house I'm in now came
| with an ancient coil electric range (1979 harvest gold color
| model). I can't wait to redo the kitchen to put back in a gas
| stove again.
|
| I also looked into induction, but only my cast iron skillet
| would work -- the stainless steel cookware I have apparently
| is the non-magnetic type (a magnet doesn't stick to them) so
| they won't work with induction.
| nivenkos wrote:
| Induction is great though, just replace the old stuff.
|
| It's very fast and so much easier to clean. I wouldn't want
| to go back to gas really.
| slowmovintarget wrote:
| "Just replace the old stuff" doesn't work very well when
| all the manufacturers have outsourced to China, which
| produces unsafe cookware. Eliminating all non-stick
| cookware to avoid forever chemicals was hard enough.
|
| I'll keep my gas range with real vent hood, thank you.
| Steltek wrote:
| > Induction is great though, just replace the old stuff.
|
| Not all "old stuff" has an induction compatible
| replacement. Induction does not work for everyone, even
| if you're willing to replace all of your pans.
| [deleted]
| spamizbad wrote:
| I think the operative word is "cumulative" -- there are
| probably communities where there are other sources of pollution
| and gas stoves are a layer on top of already bad air quality.
|
| With that said, electric alternatives can be a fire hazard in
| their own right if the home's electrical is sub-par.
|
| I'm guessing any law just tries to phase them out over time but
| existing ones are grandfathered in (which means low income
| families will be at the tail end of the adoption curve)
|
| Overall a good idea but it's going to be like de-leading
| gasoline it's not going to be some immediate triumph of
| environmental justice.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| > electric alternatives can be a fire hazard in their own
| right if the home's electrical is sub-par.
|
| I guess it's possible, but they're usually on a dedicated
| circuit and it's incredibly rare for someone to turn all
| burners on max and preheat the oven simultaneously, and plug
| something into the accessory socket.
|
| 240V really does solve a lot of problems (and a lot of multi-
| residential buildings only feed 208V into 240V appliances,
| effectively derating them).
|
| (All of the above is from the North American perspective of
| course).
| endisneigh wrote:
| Classic government overreach.
|
| From the "peer reviewed" research only about 20% of households
| live in households where the gas stove is used with proper
| ventilation.
|
| In other words, about 80% of households that have gas stoves use
| the exhaust improperly or not at all, yet only 13% of childhood
| asthma is attributed to gas stove. Simple Bayesian reasoning
| suggests that most of those are because people are not using
| their exhaust. Even if inductive stoves were used exclusively,
| cooking food that results in burning without exhaust is bad for
| you.
|
| Rather than a ridiculously excessive ban, why not just tell
| people to use their stove and exhaust properly, or have new
| installations include an automatically turned on exhaust _to the
| outside of the house_? Monoxide sensors are already a thing smh.
|
| Instead, we'll have a bunch of inductive stoves (which are great,
| by the way), that are substantially more expensive than their
| _equivalent_ gas stoves, and the government will continue to
| lament the small marginal increases in housing year after year
| after year.
| UtopiaPunk wrote:
| "Classic government overreach."
|
| Lol, the other side of this political football is republican
| states banning cities from banning gas stoves.
|
| https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/17/politics/natural-gas-ban-pree...
| multiplegeorges wrote:
| Surely you can see how induction would become much, much
| cheaper with mass production and adoption after this ban comes
| into place.
|
| Cheap to retrofit, no emissions, no fossil fuel use. Induction
| is pretty much better in all conceivable ways.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Sure it'll become cheaper, but it still would be more
| expensive than a gas range. A gas stove is very simple.
| Furthermore the use of gas heating per the study are in the
| coldest places - the same places that are using fossil fuels
| to heat anyway, even with new construction.
|
| This is not to say that we shouldn't move towards induction
| and heat pumps, but doing this under the guise of safety is
| disingenuous. The _real_ issue is improper cooking procedure.
|
| If the government wants to encourage emission free heating
| and cooking they should simply offer rebates, which some
| counties are beginning to do.
| giardini wrote:
| And the gas stove still works during hurricanes.
| stefan_ wrote:
| Induction has already taken over the low budget range. There
| is no reason to have a gas stove anymore other than inertia
| and ignorance to the health risks.
| peteradio wrote:
| > no reason to have a gas stove anymore other than inertia
| and ignorance to the health risks.
|
| Or preference for a superior cooking experience.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| I'd call that BS because imaginary...
| peteradio wrote:
| My lived experience is imaginary, does that make me
| imaginary? But I think therefore I am, so I'm not
| imaginary, yet my lived experience is imaginary. Is this
| like imaginary numbers where it is really just a poor
| descriptor for whatever it is you are asserting?
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| Naa. I know cooking with gas from a long time ago. Also
| with normal electric stoves. I just think there is
| nothing better than induction fields ATM. Maybe you had
| bad ones? It's fast, it enables precise and dynamic
| control, it doesn't stink, it's easy to clean, and
| whatnot else. Cooking with gas is an obsolete thing, like
| computing with punchcards. Maybe your electrical
| installation is insufficient, or you tried suboptimal(for
| induction) pans, pots and kettles? Dunno.
|
| Edit: I'm aware of phrases like https://idioms.thefreedic
| tionary.com/now+we%27re+cooking+wit... btw.
|
| Still makes no sense anymore, except for camping, maybe.
| 2devnull wrote:
| Will never use one unless I'm forced and I know others who
| feel the same. Induction are for people who don't cook. So
| what's the point. You can not cook on the older stoves and
| save energy used in swapping out for a new appliance. Think
| if the energy cost in replacing a large fraction of American
| cooktops, for no good reason.
| thrill wrote:
| "Induction are for people who don't cook."
|
| Well, that's a bullshit claim.
| 2devnull wrote:
| It's so well known that it's absurd to even try to argue
| the point: https://www.thedailymeal.com/cook/5-reasons-
| top-chefs-prefer...
|
| Watch a cooking show sometime. Better yet, ask an actual
| chef.
| driverdan wrote:
| That's the opposite of what would happen. Competition pushes
| down prices. If gas is eliminated it reduces competition,
| pushing up demand and prices for induction.
| sbradford26 wrote:
| I personally am switching from a propane range to a induction
| cooktop as we speak, but saying induction is cheap to retro
| fit is definitely a stretch.
|
| My scenario is an unfinished basement below the kitchen and a
| really short electrical run.
|
| Materials:
|
| Induction Cooktop $900 (We are switching from a range to a
| cooktop, the cheapest induction range I know of is around
| $1100)
|
| 25ft 8/3 Romex wire: $153
|
| So over 1k just in materials. I plan on wiring everything
| myself but if someone is not able to do that probably add
| another $500 for an electrician to do it. Finally that cost
| can balloon quickly depending on how accessible the install
| is and the distance.
| tinglymintyfrsh wrote:
| Wha?
|
| Chefs will be up in arms.
| notvaxed wrote:
| This is just more Biden veiled attack on fossil fuels pushing
| electric stoves and ovens. Fuck the Democrats I just bought a
| full on wood fired oven and stove from the Amish. My back up
| being a Propane stove oven and electric once I am fully photo
| voltaic off the grid.
| birracerveza wrote:
| What a coincidence that this is being considered only after a war
| broke out with gas being at the forefront... Not that I mind
| honestly, it needs to be supplanted asap, but still...
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Sneak a gas stove ban past the public when they are angry about
| high natural gas prices?
| vena wrote:
| the US doesn't really import natgas.
| birracerveza wrote:
| The EU does.
| vena wrote:
| this is a proposed ban for the US.
| birracerveza wrote:
| Yes, but the EU would immediately follow suit.
| Steltek wrote:
| The age old story of the EU lagging behind the US in
| regulation. (snort)
|
| What is the EU marketshare on stoves? As an importer,
| could EU natgas already have a premium attached that
| reduces any impact from regulation?
| [deleted]
| steponlego wrote:
| They'll ban guns, cars, and freedom because of the same fears.
| Just wait.
| mhb wrote:
| Last paragraph:
|
| "Ventilation is really where this discussion should be, rather
| than banning one particular type of technology," said Jill
| Notini, a vice president with the Washington-based trade group.
| "Banning one type of a cooking appliance is not going to address
| the concerns about overall indoor air quality. We may need some
| behavior change, we may need [people] to turn on their hoods when
| cooking."
| FiloSottile wrote:
| Trade groups suggesting personal behavior changes to address
| systemic issues with the thing they sell are such a standard
| playbook that I am surprised it still works.
| mhb wrote:
| So you're saying she's wrong?
| formerly_proven wrote:
| That's the point, it isn't. Just like reducing your carbon
| footprint is good for climate change. Is that an effective
| way of dealing with climate change? No.
| FiloSottile wrote:
| Yes. I am saying the whole concept of public health and
| safety (as well as information security) is based on the
| observation that you can't just "tell people to change a
| behavior". It's like saying that electrical rules in
| building codes are overreach, because people can just avoid
| touching exposed wires.
| mhb wrote:
| OK. So the clause _trade groups suggesting_ is just ad
| hominem noise. Maybe your point is that making cooking
| appliances more expensive to improve them in one
| dimension is worthwhile since it is greater than a person
| 's benefits in some other life dimension.
| FiloSottile wrote:
| That's not what "ad hominem" means, and you don't seem
| interested in discussing any systemic dynamic. I am
| disengaging, have a great day!
| mhb wrote:
| OK. Bye. But use the extra time to find out what _ad
| hominem_ is.
| SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
| Better choice would be to ban gas stoves that don't
| automatically turn on the hood ventilation. Require the hood
| to vent outside, require the hood to work automatically, and
| then you've avoided needing a personal behavior change yet
| still addressed the issue without banning the cooking method!
| debacle wrote:
| I don't believe for a second that this has anything to do with
| safety. There is an imprudent war on fossil fuels going on in
| this country, that is well intentioned but poorly thought out.
|
| And to frame this as a DEI issue is just icing on the cake.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| I wish it was like a real war, I'd be rich just from making
| ebikes!
|
| We spent over 3 trillion on war in Afghanistan, manifacturers
| of weapons made a killing!
|
| We also made decisions in days that would destroy lives of
| millions. Today installing a single wind turbine take 4 years
| of consultation and planning approvals.
|
| So np, its not a war, not by mpney spent, not by decisionmaking
| authority
| giardini wrote:
| I hear exploding e-bikes are the coming thing in the Ukraine
| - and you're already halfway there!
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-01-09 23:02 UTC)